Woman's Hour - Jenna Russell & Hello, Dolly!, Historical fiction, Women in Myanmar, Air Pollution

Episode Date: July 16, 2024

One of the most iconic musicals of all time, Hello, Dolly!, has returned to the London Palladium, with Jerry Herman’s unforgettable score including Put On Your Sunday Clothes, Before the Parade Passes By, It Only Takes a Moment and Hello, Dolly! It’s a huge, no-expense-spared production, with a cast of 40, and the legendary Imelda Staunton as the witty and charming matchmaker Dolly Levi. Jenna Russell plays the millineress Irene Molloy. Jenna is well known for her TV roles in Call The Midwife and Eastenders, and many theatre roles, including Guys and Dolls, Merrily We Roll Along, and her Olivier award-winning turn as Dot in Sunday In The Park With George. Nuala McGovern speaks to Jenna about the revival of Hello, Dolly! and the show’s message to new audiences. In February 2021, a coup returned Myanmar to military rule, overthrowing the democratically elected government. Under the regime, violence against civilians has escalated, with thousands jailed, tortured and killed – although the numbers are believed be much higher. At least three million people have been displaced. Just two weeks ago, a UN Report outlined the gendered impact of the coup: It found that military forces have committed widespread forms of sexual violence. However, despite the coup's devastating impact, women and girls are taking on key roles within the resistance movement. Also this month, there have been seperate news reports that women are being conscripted into the military. Nuala discusses the situation with Tin Htar Swe, the former head of The BBC's Burmese Service. Nine-year-old Ella Adoo-Kissi-Deborah was the first person in the world to have air pollution listed as a cause of death. She lived near the South Circular Road in Lewisham, South East London and died of a fatal asthma attack in 2013. Her mother, Rosamund, who has been campaigning since her daughters death, is now seeking is seeking an official apology from the government as her high court claim against them heads to trial. She explains why she wants an official apology from the government. Nuala also speaks to Sophie Howe who is the former First Generation Commissioner for Wales where she advised the government on policy around transport and climate change - she now does this for other countries. SAnnie Garthwaite’s second novel, The King’s Mother, tells the story of historical figure Cecily Neville, mother of Edward IV and Richard III. Annie believes Cecily’s role in the Wars of the Roses has been hugely underestimated by historians and her novel places her firmly at the heart of the action. Essie Fox has written five historical novels and her most recent, The Fascination, is set in the world of Victorian theatres and travelling fairs. They join Nuala to discuss the challenge of writing the stories of women who have been overlooked by the history books.Presented by Nuala McGovern Producer: Louise Corley

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2. And of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme. Peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, this is Nuala McGovern and you're listening to the Woman's Hour podcast. Hello and welcome to Woman's Hour. Well, I put on my Sunday clothes last Saturday and I went to see Hello Dolly. It is a most lavish production of the much-loved classic. It is playing in London's West End. Jenna Russell, who plays the milliner, Irene Molloy is with me in the Women's Hour studio.

We're going to speak in just a moment. Also today in the programme, we're going to look at the situation from women and girls now in Myanmar. This is following, you may remember, the military coup that took place in 2021. I've also just been speaking to Rosamund Adu-Kisi. You might remember that her daughter, Ella,

they're from South East London, had a fatal asthma attack in 2013. In fact, the reason for her death listed on her death certificate was air pollution. The first in the world that that happened to. But Rosamund continues to campaign. She's looking for an apology. She's also taking

a case to the High Court. We'll hear why. And also the next instalment of our series, looking at genre fiction. Maybe you caught our discussion earlier on romance and romantasy. That was a new word for me. Today it's historical fiction with Essie Fox

and Annie Garthwaite and there's so much to get into. You know, Annie had a plan for many years to work, make money, yeah, maybe all of us have followed some of that, but then retire at 55 and become a writer. And she gave herself this firm deadline. Obviously, it has worked out.

I want to know, have you held yourself or your life to a deadline? How's it working out? I want to hear. You can text the programme. The number is 84844. Social media at BBC Woman's Hour. Email us through our website

or indeed for a WhatsApp message or a voice note. That number is 03700 100 444. Get in touch. What's the deadline? What did you do? Are you in the midst of it? Maybe you're working towards it

all little and big want to hear them all but let us turn to Hello Dolly which has returned to the London Palladium with Gerry Herman's

unforgettable score including put on your Sunday clothes before the parade passes by it only takes a moment and of course Hello Dolly but this is

huge this is huge this is a no expense spared production I mean I'll give you this much there's a train that comes out on stage a train

with steam with steam there's a street car it is really quite something it's got a cast of 40 Melda Staunton is there as the witty

and charming matchmaker Dolly Levi she's starring alongside my next guest who is opposite me in the studio, Jenna Russell. Good morning. Good morning. Isn't it gorgeous, our little show? Little what a production. I was just saying, when I watched, I thought I'll go and watch Sunday Clothes when we were teching it.

And when the train, because I didn't, I kind of didn't take on board in the rehearsal room. On board, very good. Thank you. I didn't take, I didn't take on board that there was going to be this train. And when the train came out, because I know how small the wing space is at the Palladium. When it came out, I literally screamed. I felt like a little girl. And it's full of those beautiful, opulent surprises.

Well, the row behind me, I went to see the matinee on Saturday, they did scream, all of them. It was so joyous and uplifting, they clapped, they whooped, they hollered but there was a lot to holler about. I mean it transports you, another pun there, but it does transport you to a time and a place with glorious technicolour. Yes. And also, I think it's that thing that we don't see many shows like this anymore. And I think it's why Hello Dolly isn't done that often, because it's an expensive show. And our producer, Michael Harrison, God bless him, has really kind of, we're only doing a 10-week run. Pulled out the stops. He has pulled out the stops.

We've got a 21-piece orchestra. Oh, beautiful. Isn't it gorgeous? And, you know, I often talk, I've done a few musicals, and oftentimes the orchestra or your band is shoved away in a back pocket somewhere and you see your MD on a little screen which you can kind of make your MD out. But here we have that beautiful relationship between the actors on stage and our conductor.

And it's so beautiful. We can hear the orchestra playing live. There was a standing ovation before yous had practically finished. Yeah, that's our Imelda. Is every performance, I thought maybe I got a very special one on Saturday. Was that during Hello Dolly, during the number? Well, when it came to the very end, but before yous had finished, finished, people were already standing up.

Oh, it's lovely. It's lovely. When I was asked to do it in 2019, Nuala, it was that long ago. Dominic Cook, who's our brilliant director, Dominic and I worked at the RSC together in like 1990, something like that. And we've been chums ever since. We just did it. The only other thing we've done together was a very obscure German play at the gate called Hunting Scenes from Lower Bavaria. OK. So this is very different.

And we've not worked together since. And he said, oh, come on, come and do Hello Dolly. And I was like, oh, yeah, all right. But I spoke to my friend who did it in New York, who did it with Bette Midler. And I said, you know, is it just a piece of froth? And he went, honestly, Jen, he said, it just brings joy. He said, it's joyous to do. He said, and it brings joy to people.

He said, and there is nothing wrong with that. And I feel that every night. The audience, you know, they get their money's worth. And I think it does just warm your heart. The play and the show is about, you know, reliving, coming back to life. Our lead protagonist, Imelda Staunton's character and my character, they're both widows.

They're both not teenagers. As I always say about myself, women of a certain age. Women of a certain age. I got told off on Twitter once for saying that. You mustn't. Oh, shut up. I am one. I can call it what I like. But they are women of a certain age. I got told off on Twitter once for saying that. I know. Shut up. I am one. I can call it what I like. But they are women of a certain age, but they're both business. You know, they run their own businesses and they're trying to have some joy.

And I think there comes a point in both of their lives where they go, I can either just sit back, get old and be forgotten, or I can grab hold of life and see if there's any other opportunity out there for me to live. Because some, like it's set in, what, 1890? 1880, I think. 1880, yeah. The clothes, so beautiful. What a time.

I was like, it's time for long skirts and fitted jackets to come back. Corsets, I love a corset. They look wonderful. I might be into the corsets coming back, a bit uncomfortable, but the rest of it I'm there for, including hats.

You're a milliner in the whole thing. But there are, I suppose, in lots of ways, traditional roles. We have Dolly, who is a matchmaker. It's all about making a match, but it's because of the time as well, right? That you, to have kind of standing in society or be able to be sure of having money

coming into the household and being able to survive. And reputation. And I think most importantly, especially for someone like my character, Irene Malloy, who obviously is a woman with money. She owns her own business.

She runs this shop, but she's unmarried. And as a result of being unmarried, she can't do anything. She's got this money. She's got this standing in society to a certain extent. But she's like she says, I can't go to restaurants. I can't go to theatres. Not being able to go to a restaurant or a theatre. Without a man. But it's interesting to think about, isn't it? Yeah. Historically. So she has to get married in order to,

well, she says she hates the hat shop. Maybe she does. But I think she hates the fact that she's viewed as a wicked woman because she's a single woman of a certain age with money. I'm watching, or I was watching it kind of through the female lens, so to speak, as well. Of course. Particularly your character, Irene, and Dolly.

And there is one song sang by all the guys that are in the cast, which is, it takes a woman, like a little of it is like, you know, an angel with long golden lashes, etc. But for dumping out the ashes, and it's all these things, you know, a fragile woman to clean out the stable, this kind of juxtaposition of what's expected of women in these two disparate roles. Yes. But I think what we do as an audience these days, and I'm sure actually when the show was put on in the 50s, was kind of go, yeah, well, good luck with that, Horace van der Gelder. You know, we do laugh at him. And ultimately, he ends up with Dolly, who doesn't give up anything.

Who doesn't suffer fools. And she just does it in her own way. Yeah. And there's this brilliant speech that she does at the end of Act Two, you know, which is very, very much from the Thornton Wilder original, you know, the great American playwright Thornton Wilder, who gave us our town, a three-time Pulitzer Prize winner. And he talks about money. And Dolly has this brilliant speech about her husband and her, and she wants to carry on her ex-husband, her dead husband's wish that money, forgive the expression, is like manure. It needs to be spread around, encouraging young things to grow. And I think that's so, it's still such a modern,

it feels very modern. Yeah, very much about share the wealth. Share the wealth and give the youth a chance by shoveling it in their direction that they can do some good with it and that's Dolly's ethos that's what she's after. I also like that your character seemed to find love with a somewhat younger gentleman. Indeed I was worried about that, I was like oh crikey

you know because I'm I guess the parts normally may be normally played or maybe I'm making this up by someone maybe maybe 30-ish. I loved it. And lovely Harry Heppel, who plays Cornelius, is 40, but he's playing 33. He says he's 33. Yes, that's it.

You know, and I'm 57. And I was like, oh, Dominic. It's also just very modern. Yes, it is very modern. And he's lovely. I can see why Irene would fall in love with him. Let's talk about some of your other castmates. What's it like playing beside Imelda Staunton? Oh, it is very modern. And he's lovely. I can see why Irene would fall in love with him. Let's talk about some of your other castmates. What's it like playing beside Imelda Staunton?

Oh, it's wonderful. She's the consummate professional with a twinkly Irish kind of naughtiness in her eyes. I mean, she's very well behaved on stage, but you can see, you can see, I mean, all the great actors have that kind of, it just, there's a twinkle there that because they're so present and in the moment. She's brilliant. She's been wonderful.

Great leader of the company. It's been, you know, Hello Dolly. It's set in this sumptuous restaurant with these dancing men in their black trousers and kind of long-tailed velvet maroon jackets and silver platters. It's beautiful, isn't it? I was blown away by that scene. And I almost felt like, oh, kind of quite emotional watching it.

No, me too. And do you remember those little booth scenes that went in? Well, we're stuck in those booths. Yeah, so I just want to explain this to the listeners. So there's like almost like, just think of two tiny circus tents. Yeah, they're too tiny. Yeah, little curtained booths and you're in one and there's others in the other. Yeah.

So the four of us are squished into this little thing and we can't leave the stage. But there's a little, I can push the curtains back, which I was doing for us to get some air into the booth, but I get a bird's eye view of those. I see Imelda every now and then. I see her coming down the stairs. I hear the audience breaking into applause. She looks so beautiful,

but I get to watch those beautiful men dancing. And isn't it, it's like, it's like being carried away to, I don't know, another time. And it makes me feel like a little girl. My granny loved, who was a cleaner in Scotland. She loved this score. And every time I'm sat there, I'll get get emotional talking about it I think if my granny was alive to see me on the London Palladium stage just being part of it it's really special yeah so I get that joy every night of watching them and I'm always cheering them with the audience it's beautiful it is it is really quite something even the next day I was so like what what did I just see it was incredible um But let's talk about you. I mean, it's eight performances a week. That's right. Yeah.

How do you do that? Oh, it's easy. Once you know what you're doing. I mean, I'm not a dancer and I have to dance. You are dancing. You're a dancer in that. Thank you, Nuala. My cousin came and said, you don't do any dancing. I said, I blimmin' well do. Yes, you do. I do do some dancing. This is my last dancing performance. I'm hanging up my not used very much dancing boots after this. I don't think so. Didn't you just hear me talk about one of my guests who at 55 became a writer? Maybe you're going to be a dancer. I doubt it. I would like to be, if we're talking about that, I would like to be, I got into embroidery, profane embroidery. Profane? Yes, lots of naughty. I love it. I do these kind of samplers that are very naughty and

it gives me great joy. I can't ask you to obviously say the words on the radio, which I won't, but we get the idea. But that would be my secondary career if I could do it. But no, I mean, I've lost my train of thought now, Nuala. Sorry, we went off on the propane. So, yeah, my dancing shoes are going to be hung up, but it's a thing of beauty. It really is. It really is. When I'm looking at it, that's what I was also thinking with, you know, just trying to understand it. I was like, I don't understand, A, how you can do the eight points. That's right.

The dancing is so impeccable. The singing, the physicality of it as well. And then all together as a cast. It's just staying healthy. As long as you don't get a cold, it's the thing with musicals, they give you so much joy doing them. But if you get a cold, it's miserable

because of course it's like you're in, it sounds ridiculous saying it, my instrument, but imagine if you were a clarinetist and you broke your clarinet, that's what it's like. You've only got limited amount and you know it's going to wear down if you work it too hard. So as long as you're healthy and you don't have a cold, it's actually quite easy because you get so much back from the audience. I was wondering that.

Wow. I want to talk about other parts as well that you've done. In 2007, you won the Olivier Award for Best Actress in a Musical for your performance as Dot in Sunday in the Park with George. And you also reprised the role on Broadway. You received a Tony Award nomination. I was really wondering, what does the West End feel like or its audience, et cetera, compared with Broadway? Well, the Broadway experience is a very, I guess because New York, their biggest industry is the theatre. So there's this kind of bizarre thing that happens. I remember when the Tony Award nominations came out,

which over here, if you get an Olivier nomination, no one really, really knows about it apart from your other industry people um but in New York Daniel Evans and I who who was playing George we went into a little restaurant just a little cafe thing and we walked in and they did applaud getting a standing ovation in a cafe it's pretty cool which was really we were like oh my goodness people know that this stuff's going on but I what I remember most about the New York experience is that I was really trying hard I was having real trouble getting pregnant and I ended up I was doing IVF and I ended up doing when I got the job in New York I thought I, I can't go. And Julia McKenzie, who's an old pal and a mentor of mine,

she said, you have to go to New York. You have to and you will find a doctor in New York. So I went to New York, found a doctor in New York. And two weeks before the Tonys, I found out that I was pregnant with my beautiful daughter, Betsy. And so I went to the Tonys, which I would imagine for some people would be like a life or death situation where I was just really happy to be there.

It was campers tips. I was like, this is hilarious. But I had my, you know, I had my little baby. On the way. On the way, yeah. So it was a magical time. How lovely to have you in, Jenna Russell. Thank you so much.

Hello, Dolly. As you hear, I'm a fan. It's showing at the London Palladium for a limited summer season. It was just until the 14th. Just 10 weeks. That's it. Just until the 14th of September.

So mind that voice of yours. I will, I will. And those feet of yours. We will talk again, no doubt. Lovely to meet you. Thank you very much Jenna talking about giving yourself a deadline

do you want to hear a few let me see I have to click on show more in March one year I gave my boyfriend

with whom I'd hopelessly fallen in love with a secret deadline a secret one of the 1st of June to propose I knew I needed to walk away

rather than hang on hoping. Thankfully, he proposed by the end of April and we shall soon be celebrating 35 years. That's great. Another one, Caroline. I loathed school and decided not to go on to university after my A-levels, although I always knew I wanted

to get a degree in the end. For years, the opportunity never arose, but eventually, after about 25 years, I realised I should either sign up or shut up. I decided to enrol and five years later I graduated with a first class honours degree in the humanities. Such a proud moment. Well done Caroline.

Right, do let us know. Any more for your deadlines. 84844. I want to turn to the situation in Myanmar. In February 2021 a coup returned Myanmar to a military regime or junta overthrowing the democratically elected government.

And under the regime, violence against civilians has escalated. There are thousands that are jailed, tortured and killed. Although some are always trying to figure out exactly what the number might be. We do know at least three million people have been displaced. Just two weeks ago, a UN report outlined the gendered impact of the coup. It found that the military junta have committed widespread forms of sexual violence and that members

of the resistant forces have also abused women and girls. Also this month, there has been separate news reports that women are being conscripted into the Myanmar junta. That's despite initial exemptions when the mandatory military service law was announced. That was earlier this year.

But pregnant women, young mothers, are now being added to those military registration lists. Some women have fled the country because of it. There are other women and girls that are now, however, taking on key roles within the resistance movement. I got to speak to Tintar Shway. She is the former head of the BBC's Burmese service. And I asked her what the main findings were

of this new UN report. What the report shows is that women, girls, throughout Myanmar, they are facing the threat of gender-based violence, not just from the gender's armed forces, but also from the forces fighting against the gender. So the resistance as well as the military junta. The report clearly stated that.

And because of the ongoing fighting between the gender forces and the resistant forces throughout the country, there are nearly 3 million people who are displaced. So this makes women and girls even more vulnerable to violence, human trafficking, forced marriage and sexual exploitation. Another point that raised in this report is accountability of gender-based violence. This is very rare. This report, it's hoping that international community will take more notice of it and will provide more support for women. But I wonder, like in a situation that is happening in Myanmar at the moment,

between the junta and the resistance, how can there be accountability? Is there the infrastructure in the midst of this conflict to have any accountability? Absolutely not. Let us turn to some other aspects of the report. It also talks about women playing a critical role as leaders in the resistance movement. Is this something new? I wouldn't say it is new, but it is more visible now. Previous women in ethnic armies, which is non-state armies, they have joined the combated forces before.

But now women are more visible and they have formed their own all-female units. They're also at the front line. And one of the things worth mentioning is when the coup took place on the 1st of February 2021, the whole nation rose up against the coup, against the military junta, and especially women. 60% of the protesters, they are women, and they have made this feminist movement. These many women put up clotheslines full of sarongs in the streets to deter security forces from entering into the area. Because these male military forces, they are hesitant to walk under the sarongs because there is this superstitious belief that they will lose their superior masculine power and honour if they walk under the women's

sarong. So this movement did work. It deterred the soldier from entering the neighbourhoods. And now what happened is this women's battalion they have formed called M2W, which is in the central Burma. They have 225 members and they are teachers, university students, and also women from farming villages as well. And the age is 18 to 45, very young group. And their main duty is to make mines and to supply these mines to the resistant forces. So this is something new. And also they have in another area, ethnic control area called Kareni State, they have formed a women's defence force battalion. So women are playing a very significant role. This is due to decades of women's group trying to promote women's rights in has changed and they feel that they need to join

in the struggle because it is for their future. They don't want the military dictatorship in the country, like during their mother's and grandmother's time, they were ruled by military dictatorship and they know that the limitations women have in the society. So that's joining the army on the junta side, but women are being conscripted into the military despite an initial exemption when the mandatory military service law was announced in February this year. What's happening with that? The military is fighting against the resistant forces across the country and the military is losing. There are a lot of fatalities. And also some units have surrendered. So they need to fill the manpower. So they have issued this law that all men between the age of 18 and 35 and women between the age of 18 and 27 will be

eligible to serve in the army for at least two years. But at the moment, women are not being called up yet. However, Burmese Women's Union, it is a non-NGO group, they have conducted interviews across the country and they found that there are women, they are trying to leave the country because they fear that they would be enlisted. And according to the Burmese Women's Union, the women will be called up in August. So before that, a lot of young women, those who can afford, they would leave.

Those who can't afford, they would bribe the administrator, local administrators, not to enlist them. So there is a lot of concern about the young woman. And the laws say that married women will be exempted. So there are some forced marriages now, so which the women's group are worried that that could lead to domestic violence as well. So it's creating a panic among the young women inside the country. And those who have fled legally as well as illegally, especially the illegally, they will cross into Thailand, and they could be subjected to sexual violence and sexual exploitation, especially trafficking. So there are concerns about women leaving the country and also huge concern about women who remain in the country who can't afford to pay the administrators and who might have to join the army.

The report says human rights violations against female political prisoners are often directly linked to their gender. What do you know? This is very true. The International Commission of Jurists, ICJ, which is a human rights non-governmental organization, they released a briefing paper in June. The report was based on the testimonies and in-depth interviews with the former women prisoners, the lawyers representing them, and also the civil societies working with these women prisoners. The briefing, it provides very depressing, harrowing accounts of women prisoners. They are being intentionally subjected to various forms of sexual and gender-based violence. And this has resulted in severe physical and mental pain on these women. There was a case that an elderly woman, her cellmate found out that she came back from the interrogation room and her body was covered in these scars of burns, especially around her genital areas. And she was also subjected to severe beating. And what happened is it has damaged her eyesight. And another thing is during the interrogation,

it's a military man that interrogates the female prisoners and they are very often drunk. And the female prisoner will be forcibly stripped all the clothes in front of this man. And one woman, she was so traumatized that when she was released, she took her own life. And also when these strip and search, they call it, it could be in front of the man or their very little privacy for the woman prisoners. So they are carried out in a very degrading manner. This

is just because they want to extract confession, not just intimidating these prisoners, but also to extract confession from them for the alleged crimes. So these are some of the stories that are coming out. But, I mean, has there been any reaction from the international community to what has arisen in the report? International community, yes, they do voice it. And the human rights, you know, at the Geneva Human Rights Convention, these are table.

And a lot of women's groups, there are a number of women's groups, they have voiced it. But apart from this, I'm not sure whether they are receiving enough support. I doubt it very much that these women receive enough support and enough recognition of the ordeals they're going through. There's one other group that I'd like to speak about, and that's the Rohingya. The UN has described the Rohingya as the most persecuted minority in the world. The Rohingya are a Muslim ethnic group, and in August 2017,

a crackdown by Myanmar's army sent hundreds of thousands of Rohingya fleeing from Myanmar across the border into Bangladesh. Now there's close to a million that live in refugee camps in Cox's Bazar, which is in Bangladesh.

And about 75% of Rohingya refugees are women and children. That's according to the UN. What about the Rohingya women? How are they affected throughout this? So the girls in Rohingya camps, refugee camps, their position is they're very vulnerable. They are prone to forced marriages and also trafficking. There are a considerable number of cases of trafficking happening in the camps. The trouble with Rohingya, the stories about Rohingya is that the media is not allowed to go into the camps. In Cox's Fazao, which is in Bangladesh, that's the largest Rohingya camp,

and it's very difficult to have media access. But there are academic researchers who got access to it. They found out that these Rohingya women, they face multiple challenges like insecurity, violence, you know, extremely limited freedom of movement. And also their lives and also freedoms are heavily constrained by the control of that community, that the communities have over their social lives, especially marriage, regarding marriage and education. So child marriages increase markedly in the camp. There is this group called Arakan Suranger Salvation Army.

They are very active in the camp, and they attract in women who want to seek divorce and who are active in women's rights in the camp. And they threatened women who want to seek divorce and who was active in women's rights in the camp. That was Tintar Shway. She is the former head of the BBC's Burmese service, and she was speaking about the situation for women in Myanmar and also Bangladesh. And of course, many examples there of violence against women. There are support links on the Woman's Hour website. Maybe you have a topic or an issue that you're thinking about

that you'd really like to hear on Woman's Hour. Maybe something you want to get off your chest. Well, you have a chance to make that happen. We have Listener Week coming up next month.

If you're a new listener, this is the week where all the items are chosen by you. We put you at the centre of this programme. Let us know what you'd a new listener, this is the week where all the items are chosen by you. We put you at the centre of this programme. Let us know what you'd like to hear, how you'd like to hear it. You can text WOMEN'S HOUR at 84844. On social media, it's at BBC WOMEN'S HOUR. Or, of course, you can also email us through our web.

I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth.

How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now. Nine-year-old Ella Adukisi Debra was the first person in the world

to have air pollution listed as a cause of death. She lived near the South Circular Road in Lewisham, in the south-east of London, and she died of a fatal asthma attack in 2013. Her mother is Rosamund. She has been campaigning since her daughter's death and is now seeking an official apology from the government as her High Court claim against them heads to trial.

She joined me a little earlier this morning. She was on a train on her way to Southampton, so excuse perhaps the line quality. Rosamund has already had an apology from the London mayor, but I began by asking her why she also wants this official apology from the government. I think it's very, very important for us as a family, firstly, for all Ella's suffering and all the injuries to her lungs she went through. And also, everyone knows I have a very, very public campaign.

And part of what the coroner was talking about was raising awareness about the impact of air pollution on the population's health. And I believe that this would go some way to raising awareness of the campaign, especially the damage that air pollution does, because I still think there's a lot of education to be had on this topic. I'm actually off to see Sir Stephen Holgate

in Southampton, who is the main person to do with air pollution on health in the UK. And so you will have that conversation, but I understand the apology is about raising awareness. You are also taking the apology is about raising awareness. You are also taking the government to the High Court.

What are your hopes for this court case? You are asking for compensation, I understand. I think compensation is actually secondary. And that would be up to my legal team to discuss basically due to Ella's injuries.

But I think one of the things most important, as the coroner said, the government needs to clean up the air. And since Ella's injuries. But I think one of the things most important, as the coroner said, the government needs to clean up the air. And since Ella's inquest in 2020, barely anything has happened about that. The last government said, regarding lowering PM2.5, they've given a date of 2014,

which I find unacceptable. It's a child born today, won't get clean air until they're 16. And to me, that is not acceptable. You mentioned going to see Professor Stephen Holgate, who is an expert really on allergic and respiratory diseases. I mean, what are you hoping a conversation with him will do? Is it to then try and bring some more information to the government absolutely because ultimately our aim is to save lives and steven is the actual uk

champion for air quality so one of the reasons to go and see him is to see what the new government is actually going to be doing so we're going to have a conversation and i have dragged my son along as well so to put you know to say how serious we as a family are about this matter so we we're going to hear what stephen holgate also has to say and also i am actually speaking to the university as well in my capacity as a campaigner as well we know that you have lived on the south circular do you still live on it i i do i think my children have said it's it's not it's not negotiable at at at all and i think because also ella is buried just a stone throw away and they do go to the cemetery and also we feel it's not just us there's hundreds of thousands of people who live on the South Circular. Us moving isn't going to change anything at all.

I would rather the government clean up the air. That was Rosamund Adu, Casey Debra, speaking to me earlier this morning as she made her way to Southampton on the train. We did ask the government for a response and a spokesperson said, Ella Adu, Casey Debra's death was a tragedy and our thoughts remain

with her friends and family. Well, I want to speak to Sophie Howe next. She is the former First Generation Commissioner for Wales where she advised the government on policy around transport and climate change. She now does this for other countries. She was also on our Woman's Hour Power List back in 2020 which highlighted the women making

a positive contribution to the environment. Welcome back to Woman's Hour, Sophie. Thanks for having me. You know, I thought maybe we should explain one aspect that Rosamund brought up there. And I didn't go into detail because we have limited time and with a not great line. But she talked about PM 2.5, particulate matter. Can you explain why that's so important in this story? Well it's the particulate matter from these emissions which is what causes the health concerns really and what we see in the UK is that

there are about 40,000 deaths or early deaths per year from air pollution caused by that particulate matter. So we need to be reducing that particulate matter. And, you know, I think Rosamund rightly points out that there's been not a huge amount of progress. There have been Clean Air Acts passed. But actually, it's not just about passing legislation. it's what you actually then do with that legislation. And we've also seen that some of the attempts to do progressive things like the low emission zones and so on are also quite controversial. So there's some difficult decisions for politicians to take, but absolutely necessary decisions if they are going to be protecting the interests of our future generations

and younger children like Ella. So what are the solutions? Interesting, you know, that you talk about lower traffic zones, for example, that some cities have introduced, but everything has knock-on effects. I mean, there's no silver bullet,

so to speak. Talk us through a little of what you think could work. Well, I think the challenge with this is that everything is kind of connected to everything. And if we if we look at where the air pollution comes from, about a third of it comes from transport, about 26 percent of it comes from industry. And then, of course, we have some from domestic heating and so on. Actually, what that says to me is that a sensible set of interventions are things like investing in the green economy and investing in public transport and investing in ensuring that there's good quality heating for air pollution. That's good for investment in communities, for creating jobs, for reducing our carbon emissions to deal with climate change as well. And that's why when we look at things like air pollution, we need to be looking at them in the round. or not to invest in those areas, there's actually these knock-on consequences and we're not really drawing out the benefits more widely to both tackling health issues of pollution

and these other environmental issues. What solutions have worked? Well, certainly we see that there's been a big reduction in air pollution where in London, for example, clean air zones have been implemented and new layers. But as I said, that's quite controversial. There is evidence to suggest that when we reduce speed, particularly on high speed roads, that there's a reduction in air pollution. Why is that?

That's because when you're travelling at a lower speed, you're producing less particulate matter, if you like. But the evidence is a bit conflicted. Does that apply to residential areas where the speeds are lower or does it just apply where you're driving on a motorway or something like that? So the evidence duly is a little bit out on that. In Wales, we have something called the Wellbeing of Future Generations Act

and this requires us to think to the long term on that. In Wales, we have something called the Wellbeing of Future Generations Act. And this requires us to think to the long term, to make sure that the government are taking action across social, economic, environmental and cultural wellbeing of Wales. And so one solution that's come from that act, for example, is that in Cardiff, our capital city, a public health consultant was seconded into the council to lead on the development of a transport strategy. Now, that's quite interesting because when you apply a public health lens to a transport problem, you get a completely different set of solutions. You ask highways engineers to lead your transportation strategy and you get more roads.

You ask a public health consultant to lead it and what he started looking at. And what are the areas in Cardiff that have the highest levels of air pollution the lowest levels of life expectancy and what we started to do was to target interventions there around what we call active travel so safer routes for walking and cycling more public transport investment in those areas and that has both the direct consequence of bringing air pollution down when those measures kick in. But it also has an equity argument, because what we also see is that there's a strong correlation between people who live in poverty, who die younger and who are also living in areas of high air pollution. know one of the aspects that when we were looking at this story um women of course often use their cars picking up dropping off carrying responsibilities etc do you feel that perhaps women are more affected by air pollution i'm also thinking of some of those more congested streets

if you have lower traffic in certain other areas well um i mean i don't know uh i haven't i can't you know i've got the the research at my fingertips but my gut would tell me that yes women are more affected by this women are more likely to be doing the school run um and walking to you know uh to care for elderly people and to get the shopping and all of these different things i remember when i had my um my last child there was a new buggy on the market, and its entire marketing pitch was that that buggy was actually raised up compared to other buggies to remove your baby from being in direct line of sight, if you like, to emissions coming from vehicles. So I think certainly there's likely to be a gendered view of that. But what we also what we do know with absolute certainty is there is definitely a socioeconomic perspective here.

Poorer people are more likely to live in areas of high air pollution. Sophie Howe, former first generation commissioner for Wales and also former Women's Hour powerlister back in 2020. Thanks so much for spending some time with us this morning. On clean air, message just coming in. Idling engines is illegal but some authorities do not have the devolved power to enforce it. It's a significant issue outside schools where pollution has the most devastating impacts on developing lungs

and brains. The law must be enforced and more school streets so school children can walk and cycle to school breathing clean air. Keep them coming 84844 if it's on deadlines or anything else that you've heard just get in touch. Right what are you reading this summer? Are there books that you intend to tackle but instead you find yourself immersed in your favourite genre be it romance crime or something else? Well Woman's Hour is taking a deep dive

across these weeks into the world of genre fiction. The women who write it, the women who read it. And today we're looking at historical fiction. Annie Garthwaite's second novel, The King's Mother, tells the story of the historical figure, Cecily Neville, mother of Edward IV and Richard III. Annie believes Cecily's role in the War of the Roses has been hugely underestimated by historians and her novel places her firmly at the heart of the action. Essie Fox has written five historical novels.

Her most recent is The Fascination, set in the world of Victorian theatres and travelling fairs. They both join me in studio. Good morning. Good morning. Good morning. So maybe I'll start with you, Annie. A little bit more on Cecily Neville at the heart of things. What was I reading that I found?

That perhaps women were perpetrators of war and they're never really given that role when we think, you know, of women in history. Yeah, absolutely. Cecily famously says in the books, you know, men fight with swords and we are women, we fight with words. And, you know, Cecily Neville, she's been overlooked by history, but she was the great matriarch of the House of York. She was the only protagonist of the Wars of the Roses to survive from the very beginning to the very end. She was born in the year of Agincourt, 1415, all of that. And she lived into the first decade of the Tudor era. And for all that time, she was the absolute center of political power. And people assume that women, you know, we've been sold a myth by Hollywood and the patriarchal

history that women in the Middle Ages had no power, but they wielded tremendous power. They were political animals and Settlee was the cream of the crop. But there are, of course, always these arguments blazing about what happened in the War of the Roses, for example, that you're

tackling. What sense of responsibility do you feel to present the truth of the situation? We are talking about historical fiction, so I'm just wondering about that line. Yeah, I get a bit Star Trek about history. You know, don't mess with the timeline. You know, if we know that something has happened in such and such a way at such and such a time, let's not pretend that it didn't. But Hilary Mantel put this very well when she said, you know, history is just the bits that

are left in the bottom of the sieve when all of the waters of time have run through, and it's partial and it's incomplete and it's often full of bias. And the great joy of being a novelist is to be able to take those scraps and scripts and put them together and create a story and at a time like the Wars of the Roses which you know historians still argue about and fist fight about it's an absolute gift for a novelist because we can look at what we know and then we can say well okay if we know that this happened what else is likely to have happened? What is plausible and believable? And that's the great joy of being a historical novelist, I think. Let us move from the monarchy to perhaps more,

let's talk about Victorian times, Essie. Why are you so fascinated with that era? Yes, fascination is a good word for it, actually. Oh, fascination, yes. I think it's because, first of all, when I was a little girl, it was seeing old black and white films on television, particularly things like Wuthering Heights, Jane Eyre, Great Expectations, the very old David Lean version,

which is so wonderful. And they always stuck in my mind and inspired me when I went to university. I loved the Victorian module, the sensation novels, particularly those plot driven twisty turny novels, which I've always been drawn to. And also, I think it's a fascinating era because there was so much technology changing, the discovery of and use of electricity, the telephone later on, you have the Industrial Revolution. So life was changing at a very fast rate. And that was changing things for women as well. You know,

you still had women in middle class and upper class families who were really just waiting to be married off, as it were, and then to carry on having children and doing the same. But lives for other women were changing enormously. You had a lot of movement from the country to the city. People that worked on farms were then working in factories. There was a lot of mobility and with mobility and also trains, which came along in the Victorian era, you know, so much of life was changing. So I think it's a very exciting time. How, getting to that accuracy that I was speaking about with Annie there as well, how do you recreate that whole era for your readers? I know you're an avid researcher,

which I'm sure both of you are. I think, first of all, physically, the world we live in, particularly in England, still has an awful lot of the Victorian era. So walking here today through London so many Victorian buildings um we aren't that far away really in time I know it seems like a long time but in the scheme of things you know clothes of different yes well I can go to the V&A or I can look up online and research clothing and that that's very very interesting you can find out how people spoke um because you can actually read reviews you can look into the newspaper archives tell people how they spoke i thought that was really interesting well i think that many people

consider that victorian people spoke as in dickens novels novels. That's not necessarily the case. I mean, Dickens, a wonderful writer and a genius, but very much his own style. And if you read somebody else who's writing at the same time, say, Wilkie Collins, you will find a much more natural expression and way of speaking and dialogue. And I think, you know, read the novels at the source of the era and you'll realise there's a great diversity

if you read Thomas Hardy, very naturalistic style and basically books about people who aren't so different than we are today. I'm going to come to sex in a minute, but let me turn back to you. You said you understood

because we often get the men, right? From history, in the history books when we were growing up, etc. But you said you understood the men much better when you started thinking about women in the court. Explain that for me. Yeah, because the men have controlled the history of this period and it's the Wars of the Roses. So it's a lot of men running around with swords bashing each other's heads in. And that's where the focus has been.

And, you know, I've been interested in this period for the best part of 40 years and yet it was a long time before I realized that all of the four women that we deal with in the king's mother Cecily and the three other women that compete with her intimately knew each other and they were connected by family by alliances and so on they were so closely knit together. And historians, you know, you could fill this room with historians and not, you wouldn't find two of them that would agree about what happened during this period. And it's mystifying. Some things that happen don't make apparent sense. But when you put the women back in the center of the story and understand what their motivations were and what they were trying to achieve,

then the actions of the men make a great deal more sense. Do you think that women readers are sometimes put off the idea of the genre of historical fiction being about battles and swords? Yes, I do. And I think there's two things. People look at it and think, oh, it's a book about the wars of the world, so there's going to be an awful lot of violence and fighting. I think the other problem with historical fiction is that people hear the word historical fiction and think old-fashioned historical romance, particularly if it's written by a woman.

If historical fiction is written by a man, it's going to be battles and fights and seafaring and swords and sandals. And those stereotypes, it's going to be battles and fights and seafaring and swords and sandals. And those stereotypes, it's very gendered. And those stereotypes don't serve any of us well. And often you'll say to a reader, oh, I don't really read historical fiction. You say, well, have you read

Henry Mantel? Oh, yes, my goodness. Have you read Hamnet? Yes. Oh, I loved it. Well, they're all historical fiction. Oh, yeah. So they are. It's how we think about that actual term historical fiction. Sorry, go ahead. Certainly with the king's mother, you know, when people say to me, I don't really know the history. I said, forget the history.

This is about four mothers and what they are prepared to do for their sons. And so completely relatable as well. Maybe going to some further. Further than you or I might go. But maybe not. Maybe not. Let us turn back to, you were mentioning stereotypes there. You know, we often think of Victorians, of course, as very buttoned up.

But the fascination, your book explores sexuality in the Victorian era and not as much repression. What was really going on? Well, I think my book is very much, you know, it's dealing with people who were travelling around the country fairgrounds and who were involved in the theatres. And I do think that, you know, it does seem very buttoned up in some ways in the Victorian era because of religion. But remember, we also had Darwinism going on. So there were people questioning religion. But I think also, you know, lots of people would be in the theatre. So in my book, In the Fascination, there's a pantomime in Jory Lane, and a huge cast of people. And I just felt that obviously, not everybody was going to be living in a buttoned up way.

And I wanted to show people being different in lots of ways. In the book, you know, some people are physically different. Some people are sexually orientated in a different way. Some people are socially outcast for various reasons. And I wanted to explore all of that and how people who are somewhat on the outside of the accepted society, particularly women who could find a way in that world because they could actually sell things at the country fairs and make their own money, or in the theatre if they were an actor or a performer or a singer,

they could have autonomy, which they couldn't have in other parts of life. So I just wanted to explore all that and to see how those people found their way in the world and found friendships and found family, as it were, together. Isn't it interesting when you say Drury Lane that it is just down the way and that it's still there intact in all its glory? I want to talk a little bit about also being a writer of historical fiction. You know, I was throwing out, Annie, earlier to some of my listeners, you know, if they had a deadline and what it was.

You gave yourself a deadline of 55 to become a writer? Yes. I mean, literally, the idea for these books has been in my head for the best, since I was a teenager. And, but, you know, real life, girls got to live. But I promised myself that when I was 55, I would give up the day job and write these stories. And you just did it?

And I did it, yes. But it was a long-term plan. Have a plan, stick to the plan. And quite similar, actually. I always wanted to write. I always had stories in my mind. I'd go to bed and dream and have a sort of fan fiction thing going on about books I was reading or films or TV.

And again, I always wanted to write, but I never felt the time was quite right to do that. And then when my daughter left home to go to university, so I was definitely in my middle age, I decided I'm going to do it. I'm going to try to do it. And if it doesn't work, it doesn't work. And it did, luckily. I think in some ways ways I look back and think I wish I'd started when I was younger I really do but on the other hand I think I've gained life experience and insight into more characterization and just learned more about the world and I think it's that puts you in a better position to be a more rounded writer absolutely that was certainly

the case for me because, you know, my books are about how women exercise power in a world where men hold all the power cards. And I spent 30 years in business, often the only woman at the big table, learning the tactics that these women knew 500 years ago about how to get the men

to do things they wanted them to do. It's an invaluable experience. It is. What is the appeal of historical fiction? And I suppose really the bigger question, do both of you think you're going to remain within it? I will probably go into a different area of history, but I will remain in historical writing

because I like learning. I feel with every book that it's like doing a little mini degree in a way. I learn something and I do do a lot of research and I love to learn about that. And so I also think it's escapism. People love that escapism. But my books, like Annie was saying, my books aren't sugary romance. They are very much based in a real world and taking real themes as well.

What about you, Annie? Yeah, I think so, because... Staying within the genre? Absolutely, and that's largely because it's a bit of a hobby horse, a bit of a mission, but I just want to prove to people that back in the Middle Ages, back in history, there have been powerful women doing things.

And, you know, it's so easy to assume that before the 20th century, women didn't do much. But they did. And I want to bring these characters to life. So lovely to speak to both of you. Your books are wonderful. Of course, Annie Garthwaite, her second novel, The King's Mother. Essie Fox,

her most recent is The Fascination, just out in paperback as well. Really wonderful to have both of you into the Woman's Hour studio. Thank you both so much. Thank you. Well, something completely different tomorrow. Woman's Hour is going to Lord's Cricket Ground. So we've had this exciting summer

of sport and so Wednesday is England's women. They face New Zealand, good rivalry there, at the iconic home of cricket. I'm going to be joined by World Cup winner Ebony Rainford-Brent and New Zealand star player Susie Bates. She'll be hoping that her side can achieve a win

in the final T20 match of the series. We'll also take a look at grassroots level of the game and hear from girls that are playing in Scotland. It's going to be brilliant. I hope you'll join me on Radio 4 tomorrow from 10. I'm going to try and, I don't know, root out some white cable knit sweater. I'll be ready to broadcast

for one hour, 10am until 11. Come with me to the cricket ground of Lourdes. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time.

I'm Natalie Cassidy. And I'm Joanna Page. Now you might know me as Sonia from EastEnders. And Stacey from Gavin and Stacey. And while sometimes we are on the telly, mostly we just love watching it. So that's what we're talking about in our podcast, Off the Telly. We're chatting about shows we just can't miss

and the ones that aren't quite doing it for us. That comfort telly we can't get enough of. And things we know we shouldn't watch, but we just can't help ourselves. And we'll be hearing about all the telly you think we should be watching and talking about too. No judgement here. Well, a bit. Join us for

Off The Telly. Listen on BBC Sounds. I'm Sarah Treleaven and for over a year I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who's faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know.

It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story. Settle in. Available now.