Woman's Hour - Jenni Murray says 'goodbye' after 33 years with the programme

Episode Date: October 1, 2020

As Jenni Murray says 'goodbye' to the programme she's presented for 33 years, she looks back at some of the battles we've won, lost and still have to fight in the company of Harriet Harman MP, Jude Kelly director and founder of the WOW Foundation, Helena Kennedy QC and the novelist and poet Jackie Kay. Plus she talks about some of her own favourite moments of the past 30 years. Presenter: Jenni Murray Producer: Beverley Purcell Edito:; Karen DalzielGuest: Harriet Harman Guest: Helena Kennedy Guest: Jude Kelly Guest: Jackie Kay

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BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, Jenny Murray welcoming you to the Woman's Hour podcast for the 1st of October 2020. My last ever. Good morning and welcome to Woman's Hour. And yes, it does feel very strange to be saying that for the last time after 33 years, although I am much cheered by a gift from Mary Berry. It's a chocolate cake, which is sitting in front of me, waiting to be shared with the team.

And we will wait till the end of the programme, I promise you. Later in this morning's programme, we'll look back at some of the amazing people I've encountered in this studio since September 1987, ranging from Margaret Thatcher through Betty Davis, Hillary Clinton and Joan Baez. But we begin with four women who are my contemporaries, with whom I've often shared the three steps forward

and two steps back of the moves towards equality between the sexes. They're the Labour MP for Camberwell and Peckham and Mother of the house, Harriet Harman, Baroness Helena Kennedy QC, the poet and novelist Jackie Kay, who's Scotland's national poet, the Macca, and Jude Kelly, the founder and director of the Wow Foundation. And I am so sorry we can't have you all in the studio to share the Mary Berry cake. But of course, we are all down the line. But Jude, let's start with you.

You know, we want to be positive and we want to feel empowered on a morning like this. But this pandemic, how much of a two steps back for women do you see in the pandemic experience? Okay well there's no doubt about it that economically it's a big step back in terms of gender-based violence, it's a big step back in terms of child marriage, child education, you know all the measures by which we're kind of trying to demonstrate that we're still making progress at a global level, there's a lot of jeopardy, there's no doubt about it. But because it is important to think about how to be positive, because positivity gives you energy, and energy is what we need to keep on this road. I think it's worth saying that never in my lifetime have I seen such a kind of collective understanding of what systemic injustice looks like, not just for women, but for everybody. able to provide the research, the knowledge, the connectivity and the chutzpah to say,

OK, this is a real blow, but we aren't going to take this lying down. So I think that we've got two things happening at the same time. One is that when you have systemic injustice and you have a crisis, everything does roll back. But secondly, we've got some great leaders at all levels, grassroots through to government at top level, not necessarily ours, who are basically prepared to take this gender injustice and say this requires us to build back in a different way. So it's both a loss and an opportunity. Harriet, what are your conclusions about the results of the virus? I suspect you see some sort of benefits in it. Well, I will answer that question, Jenny, since you've asked it, you're the interviewer, but I'm going to butt in and say something first about Women's Hour and the incredible legacy you

leave. Because you mentioned at the start of this that we're all the same generation. And the thing about our generation is that we were the first generation who were not saying we were going to choose between staying at home and bringing up children and being a housewife or going out to work and prioritising a career, but we were going to try and do both. And that was an incredible, huge social and economic revolution, which was invisible to most of the broadcasting world. But Woman's Hour,

and with you right at the heart of it, you made the space for all of these issues to be discussed day in, day out. We all could hear each other and talk to each other. And if we hadn't have had that space, we wouldn't have been able to find our way forward in the way that we have. And I think we've made amazing progress and you leave a tremendous legacy. So I just want to really thank you for that. And I know you've had to defend the programme as well. Sometimes where people have said, oh, we're all equal now, let's close it down. And you've said, no, it's really important. So, you know, I just cannot give you enough respect for that, Jenny. Thank you. As far as COVID is concerned, I mean, when it's come to children not being at school,

it's even with the men not at work, but at home, it's still the woman being doing most of the work at home when it comes to caring and shield looking after elderly relatives at home. It's women doing it, increasing domestic violence. Those are the real downsides. And women's jobs being lower paid are more fragile. But on the upside, I think remote working is going to make a real difference and is going to last. And also little things like, you know, we've argued for years, as you know, that season tickets shouldn't just be monthly or weekly or yearly. You should be able to get part time season tickets. That's a massive discrimination against women who are working part time.

Now, suddenly, with people working from home and just in the office less, oh, suddenly we're going to get part time season tickets. So that would be good. Jackie, we've heard so much about domestic violence and how it's increased, certainly during the lockdown. I think in a way that has inspired you, hasn't it? Yes, in the past, I was very moved by the story of Amelia Rossiter. And I wrote a series of poems that then Mark Antony turned to put to music. And it was made into a small opera, really, called Twice Through the Heart. And yes, I had this in common with Helena, that the law of provocation was really against women for years.

Helena will be able to talk about this in more detail than me but but often it strikes me that that we take um as our as our inspiration or our provocation um us poets and writers things that happen um out there in the real world and uh you know i i agree completely with with harriet and wanting to salute you jenny in kind of in in holding up a mirror um to the real world and everything that's been going on in it and to the imaginative world and the cultural world. I think that Women's Hour has just been a great companion to have going through these years with you and seeing all of the changes happen to writers and to society and to attitudes towards violence,

towards love, towards civil partnership, marriage. It's kind of hard to quantify all of these different changes that you and women are a born witness to. So, yes, I salute you for all of that. Helena, how would you say the shedding of the light on domestic violence we've seen recently has changed the conversation about it. Listen, Jenny, when these discussions on Women's Hour about domestic violence and about rape and about the experiences of women and law,

it was a time when domestic violence was still a source of secrecy and shame and women couldn't go public about it. Now, at least it's on the agenda. It hasn't disappeared. It's going on. And there's no doubt that COVID has escalated the numbers of cases. And I have friends who are women judges,

women and men judges, male judges, who are receiving virtually the need for immediate recourse somehow to get a non-molestation order, an order of restraint, protection orders. And it's now an accepted thing and has a greater understanding. Judges used to see in the old days, you know, that what went on between a man and a woman was a sort of private matter and they used to see it was six of one and half a dozen of the other. Do you remember the days, Helena, when we used to talk about judges who seemed to be rather feeling sympathy for the perpetrators of crimes against women? Absolutely. And the blame used to always be put on the shoulders of women. Judges didn't accept that the cost that there was of domestic violence on children on the next generation and they also

when it came to rape I mean they used to say all that stuff about how women were asking for it or that they were somehow contributory negligent if they went out late at night or they were going home on their own. And they blamed women's short skirts because we all ran around in short skirts in those days. And so it was a blaming culture where if male transgression took place, it was almost because women invited it and it was a it's you took people on a journey and I want I just want to pay a particular tribute to you Jenny you're my friend and as indeed are all these women who are on this morning we all came out of the same period and we became bonded together um was that I remember that you raised the issue and and we did on air, about marital rape.

If people were still married, even if they were separated, if a husband had a key to the house and he came in and had sex, then it was part of a male entitlement within marriage. And by giving public space for a debate about that, it actually ignited the shift that took place eventually, first of all, in our highest court, which was then the House of Lords Appellate Committee. And then in turn, law was passed to basically say that there was such a thing as because there hadn't been before that. And I want to just say that by putting it on air, organisations like the Women's Institute

then invited me to go and speak to their different committees and cohorts around the country. Town's Women's Guilds took it up, the Seroptimus took it up. And so women across the piece started making the demand for change. And I think it was about being well informed and saying, why is this still happening to us? And so I too want to pay tribute to you because I think that you and Women's Hour have really engaged with women in all our shapes and sizes and forms and the different parts of the firmament that we operate in, whether we're young children or women caring for the elderly or whether it's women in the workplace. And Women's Hour really has been an important,

a powerfully important place for that kind of discussion to take place. Harriet, I know you've done a lot of work recently on the amendment to the Equality Act and what's known as rough sex clause. What does it mean to you to see the amount of support you've had for it now when, you know, in the past, you've had a lot of difficulty getting people in Parliament to take notice of childcare, marital rape, all of those things, which you had such difficulty getting on the agenda. Well, I think it's like Helena said, is that attitudes have now changed considerably.

I mean, you wouldn't get anybody now publicly saying, well, he gave her a slap because she was out of order and he needed to keep her in order. That sort of thing has gone. Those attitudes have changed. However, those sort of deep cultural things between men and women, still some of them persist. And the latest one was the rough sex defence, which paradoxically came out of the idea of women's sexual empowerment. You know, the 50 shades of grey, women all like to be tied to the bed and beaten. And therefore, when a man killed a woman or seriously injured her,

he would turn up in court and say, yes, those injuries were inflicted by my hand. But actually, she was asking for it. She wanted me to insert those objects into her. She wanted me to strangle her. And so, in a way, these things were still happening. But therefore, the law had to be changed, although attitudes had changed. And again, we've got to keep a very close eye on that as in the courts to make sure that it's actually being put into effect. Because as you've said, it's sometimes three steps forward, two steps back. You know, we're not there just because

people are agreeing with us. We're only there and have made it when change actually happens. Jackie, what difference would you say? So many women of colour being published and read. What difference has that made to the way we all begin to see the world? I think it's made a massive, absolutely massive difference because you can't really see who you want to be unless you can see yourself reflected imaginatively, whether that be in theatre or in literature or in poetry.

And I think in the last 30 years, particularly in the last 10 years, there's been an explosion of different voices, which has just been so welcome because for years you would be lucky if you came across one black poet on the curriculum. Still, I mean, I just read in the Guardian yesterday that in the GCSEs there's very few black writers being taught in this country still officially on the syllabus

and that all needs to change. But certainly there are so many voices that we can read and hear from and so many experiences that we can share. And reading does transport you to another world. And in order to understand something from another character's point of view, reading is one of the best little keys to open the front door and to let you open the window in somebody else's house. and so I think it's just been extraordinary to read writers like Chimamanda Ngozi Adichie and Andrea Levy and Jay Bernard all sorts of different writers that have come through in the last 20 to 30 years

Jennifer Nassusumba Mankumbi, there's been a lot of African writers that have come to the fore just in the last 10 years and that's been really exciting, it also makes you think where were all writers that have come to the fore just in the last 10 years and that's been really exciting. It also makes you think, you know, where were all these writers and what was the publishing industry doing and what was access like to the publishing industry and that all these questions are being

asked and they continue to be asked and I think we still need to be very, very active. It's wonderful that Bernadette Evarow won the Booker, but she was the first black woman to win the Booker in 50 years of the prize. So there are causes for celebration, but I think, like everybody else is saying, we have to keep our eye open because change can easily and quickly be reversed. And sometimes people don't welcome change. They're resentful of change and they start to say, oh, yes, but what about white writers? As if white writers hadn't had great opportunities all along.

Jude, as women of the world, which is, of course, what WOW is all about. How would you say feminism has spread and become a more acceptable term across the world than what we used to hear called, oh, that other F word? Yeah, because when I started the WOW festivals, it was over 10 years ago. And that was one of our phrases, you know, is feminism the new F word? Because at that time, particularly young women had been absolutely told, you know, you don't need this any longer. It's old fashioned. And also it was very characterised and caricatured through years of media defamation, I would say. And it wasn't intersectional in many ways. You know, it didn't have an understanding of the range of women's voices that needed to be included.

But I think travelling all over the world, as I have done to the festivals, you realise that there's been an incredible tradition in Latin America, an incredible tradition in Australasia, an incredible tradition in many, many parts of the African continent. There's been absolutely extraordinary writers and figures come out of the Indian subcontinent. So, you know, the idea that it's sort of held by white feminists in the global north, that's not how it's perceived around the world. And it's been incredibly important for us, I think, to understand that the learnings that we're getting from around the world, from women in Nepal, from women in Nigeria, have changed the way that we understand something that we are globally subject to, which is a system called patriarchy, not invented by any of the men we love, but nevertheless sustained, that has said women aren't first class they're second class and then you know depending on other factors you know you are downgraded even further and i think women around the world now are able to voice that and understand it and feminine feminism is no longer seen to be something which is a slightly an embarrassing thing to admit to. I think we've taken a lot of energy, haven't we, from young women. I mean, listening to as International Day

of the Girl is in a week's time and WOW is doing a big celebration of 12 year olds, 13 year olds, 14 year olds. They are able proudly to say they're intersectional feminists and proudly also to say that, you know, they're going to talk about period poverty. They're going to talk about climate change and eco fashion. So it's become a much more intergenerational movement as well as a global movement. And kind of the idea that we have to co-learn and unlearn things. I mean, if you think about all the debates around trans and non-binary and how much we are learning and thinking, how much work we're doing between each other. And it makes me, Jackie, go back to people like Audre Lorde,

to Bell Hooks, to Angela Davis, to Maya Angelou, so that I can kind of understand more of what voices around the world have been writing about for years, but we haven't necessarily kind of used them inside our gene pool yet, and we need to. And Women's Hour has actually always been international. Yes, it's had a fantastic uk audience but i know you know when i go to japan people say oh yes women's hour you know so i i think that you jenny need to know that you have international reach absolutely you're not

you're not just our national treasure although you are that too can we just end by from each of you? You know, how proud are you all of the legacy we're leaving for the next generation of women? Jackie? I'm very proud, Jenny, and I'd love to ask you a question because, you know, this is your last Women's Hour. Oh, no, it's not allowed. I'd love to, please, please. I'm just wondering how it's feeling for you,

being presenting this last Women's Hour. What does it feel like? It's very, very strange. I'm sitting on a chair, which, you know, I've got my Mary Berry cake, which is right in front of my eyes, which is very, very exciting. I'm sitting on a chair because I like a solid chair, not a chair that wiggles around. And it's green and it's green and it's been here for years

and the studio managers have put a blue plaque on it saying that Jenny Murray last sat on this chair on the 1st of October 2020 and so it's just very, very strange, but okay, come on

Helena I would like to wish you a happy National Happy National Poetry Day And so it's just very, very strange. But OK, come on. Helena. I would like to wish you a happy National Poetry Day, sat in your chair, having a bit of cake later, because I'd like to salute all the poets out there and all the support that you've given poets on Women's Hour through the years, through the 33 years. So thank you, Jenny. Helena, how proud are you of the legacy we're leaving?

Well, listen, the law has changed dramatically on many of the different subjects that you and I have done over the years, but it hasn't changed enough. And as Harriet has said, a lot of things still exist because of deep-seated attitudes that we all have. And that's what we're having to examine now. And when women got involved in Me Too, and when they complain about the failures of law, they really are saying, you have to start moving some of these areas of change more quickly for us. And the young are just not going to accept it. And I'm inspired by it, like Jude, by the young. The young women who are now challenging so many things that we all sort of kind of put up with,

it's really something to encourage and not be grumpy on the sidelines. It really is a time of change. And so we have to also see the way that people are suffering at the moment. And women have to be at every table, every table, every room. Women have to be filling those rooms too. And so I feel inspired. I feel optimistic, even amongst the wretchedness that I see in the world

in the work that I'm doing internationally. And Harriet, what are you most proud of? Well, I think politics has changed and there is a space for women's voices and an ability to have women sharing decisions that actually make a huge impact on women's as well as men's lives. And I'm very hopeful for the future and the next generation of women who will not be shut up and sidelined and marginalized but it is still a struggle and therefore it's still really important that we have women's art going forward and being that space where we can very seriously discuss

and deeply discuss a whole range of really really deep issues which are just missed elsewhere. And Jude, finally, what are you most proud of? Your legacy. I'm most proud that I think that we are giving an idea that girls and women are entitled to dream as big as they want to. And so the fact that they can dream to be a stand-up comedian along with dreaming to fly aeroplanes and run countries, these are all very important things.

The scale of the dreaming has changed and we have to give ourselves permission to be all that we could be and that includes having fun and having joy. So everything's very tough sometimes, but when I see women being incredibly funny, incredibly creative, being brilliant musicians, whatever, I also feel this is a big step. The divine idea of women's creativity,

that's the thing that I am incredibly inspired by myself. Jude Kelly, Harriet Harman, Helena Kennedy, Jackie Kay, thank you so much for joining me today on my last programme. And I do hope we will be sharing ideas again in the future. Thank you all very much. Now, this next bit is not, I assure you, about me showing off, but I have encountered so many extraordinary men and women during what is almost half my lifetime,

some of whom were a delight to interview, others, I have to say, rather less so. My producers have put together a collection of what they considered my best bits. So here I go, hanky at the ready, beginning with the introduction to an end-of-year review of 1987. Hello. We can't look back at 1987 without mentioning certain women and events. The general election took Margaret Thatcher into her third term, and she looks like entering the record

books as the Prime Minister with the longest uninterrupted period at number 10 this century. I'm Sally Feldman, and I joined the BBC as a producer on Woman's Hour. Then I became joint editor. It's hard to forget the Margaret Thatcher interviews. Margaret Thatcher always terrified me. It's not separate, men and women, and I get really rather fed up of this. Jenny used to be sick, physically sick. She was so nervous, but always very well brief.

And if you're sure of your talents and abilities, you don't expect to be treated differently at work because you're a woman. What most able women I know, women who climb to the top, whether it be in broadcasting, whether it be in business, whether it be as a woman editor, they've got there through merit and that is their strength and their ability. But don't try to give the impression we need special treatment. We don't. We're pretty independent people. And if there is a difference, let me say this, it's often women who are left to cope. And that's what makes us very practical and very able. There was one occasion after she had been deposed where she came into the studio rather

than me having to go to Downing Street, which is what we usually did. And I had a question that I wanted to ask her about how her gender constantly being referred to had affected her. You did also have people like François Mitterrand wax lyrical about your, I think he called them Marilyn Monroe lips, and Alan Clarke, who I know is a great friend of yours, about your ankles when he was sitting behind you in the House of Commons, he mentions it in his diaries. Did you play on that? Did you flirt if you had to? I didn't even know they had made these comments. How should I?

And she just sat there opposite me, looking at me as if I was completely off my head. What on earth was I talking about? That nightmare moment where an interviewer has to rapidly get on to the next question because the interviewee is just not responding. And that baffled me for a long time, until I realised much later that Bernard, her wonderful press secretary, tough old auction man, had probably never put that kind of story in front of her. So when I told her about it, it was the first time she'd heard it. The experience of being interviewed by Jenny is quite something else because you get

her warm voice and her penetrating gaze. She almost hypnotised people into replying to her. She would ask, you know, Edwina Curry when she had a last smear test, for example. Or she'd ask Gordon Brown whether he thought it was okay to be in charge of his wife's tax returns. She just didn't have any fear at all about asking people things. And they always found themselves replying. I called the first debate on women's health ever in the House of Commons. I'm not disputing any of that. But what I'm disputing is how supportive to women you can call yourself when you have put Norma Major's private life into the public sphere, as you have.

And frankly, she must be terribly embarrassed and humiliated. I think that's an issue that she needs to take up with her husband. And he did not end the affair. I did. Hillary Clinton was late. Not her fault, somebody underestimating London traffic. She was supposed to be the first item in the programme. So instead, we very luckily had Shirley Williams, who was also in the running order.

It's always been an absolute delight to interview. Shirley, what was your reaction when you heard your mother was to be honoured in this way? Oh, I was bowled over. I got this letter from... And then somebody said in my headphones, she's here, she's here, Clinton's here. And in she came, I thanked Shirley and her friend. Baroness Williams, Shirley Williams and Hilga Rudin.

And they were just getting up. And Hilga came and sat next to me, you know, at the time, the most famous woman in the world. And as I was introducing her, she suddenly started waggling a handbag across the desk in front of me, which I thought was very strange. And I said, and this was all live, and she's just passed Shirley Williams' handbag over the table

so that she doesn't leave it behind. Thank you very much, Hilary Rodham Clinton. Welcome to Woman's Hour. And suddenly this immensely powerful, frightening woman was no longer powerful or frightening. She was just one of us. She'd sat down and thought, oh, my goodness, that woman's left her handbag behind. She can't go without it. And then she gave me a wonderful, wonderful

interview. I was really impressed by her, even when I asked her how she had coped with a man who had humiliated her consistently throughout their marriage. What is it about Bill that has enabled you to forgive his infidelity? Forgiveness is a choice. And I fully respect those who don't make that choice for whatever reason in their personal or their professional lives. But for me, it was absolutely the right choice. She said, you know, Bill and I met when we were students. We began a conversation. And I like to say we started a conversation there in law school that we have never stopped.

It kind of indicated that, yeah, the sex had been embarrassing and hurtful, and she had worked very hard to forgive him. But actually, it was that intellectual relationship that mattered most. The work is the one thing you can rely upon, not human beings always, but the work you can rely upon. Within only weeks of my joining the programme, I was sent to interview Betty Davis, who I had admired for such a long time. I was absolutely frightened to death because

she had a fearsome reputation. I went off to this very posh hotel in the centre of London, walked into a suite where this tiny woman with impeccable red fingernails, beautifully dressed, perfectly

made up. She was 80, beautifully dressed, perfectly made up. She was 80, I think, at the time. It wasn't long before she died. I always have read any book written by the person I'm about to interview. Hers was an autobiography in which she had mentioned serving soldiers at a feeding centre during the war. And I thought, oh, that's a good way in. I know that one of the things that you're particularly proud of in your career is the Hollywood canteen. Tell me a little bit about that. What did you actually do there? Oh, we had a place where the armed forces could come and meet famous people.

You know, it's not about being a movie star. It's about something that was obviously very Oh, we had a place where the armed forces could come and meet famous people. You know, it's not about being a movie star. It's about something that was obviously very personal to her. And I managed to win her over very, very quickly by asking her about that. And then, of course, she was charming and we talked about the career. Sex is responsible for so many things in our lives. And it's a very important thing, once more. But I've always thought it was a great joke on human beings. And yet this was the woman who wanted to make love on a bed of gardenias.

Well, that's a perfect proof of what I'm saying. And at the very end, I said, I have always wanted to hear you utter that line in real life that Margot Channing says as she comes down the stairs. Will you do it for me? Yes. Fasten your seatbelts. It's going to be a bumpy night. She actually said the line for me. That was amazing. The wonderful thing about Jenny is that she was a forensic journalist and interviewer, very meticulous about facts, woe betide any producer who got a fact wrong. But at the same time, Jenny was a lateral thinker in so many ways,

imaginative and really interested, interested in ideas, interested in other people. So I was sitting at the dressing table at the end of the day gathering my stuff together and he walked into my dressing room and he saw me sitting at the table came in to say goodnight and he was very kind of shy, you know. The interesting thing about Pokey

he was never an aggressive male. And I said, welcome back, see you tomorrow. And he lifted my head up and he bent over and he kissed me goodnight. Well, that was it. Thank you. She had a marvellous knack of putting any person in that studio at ease. You were always known as a great giggler, weren't you?

And somebody who would corpse at the drop of a hat. Do you still do it? Yes. Yes, but I'm slightly better at it. We had a wonderful time during Cranford when Eileen Atkins and I came out of a cottage and Lisa was coming along as Mary Smith in the carriage and Eileen has to say,

Miss Mary Smith, welcome to Cranford. And we rehearsed it and rehearsed it and they said, OK, action. We came out of the cottage and Eileen has to say, Miss Mary Smith, welcome to Cranford. And we rehearsed it and rehearsed it, and they said, OK, action. We came out of the cottage and Eileen said, Miss Mary Smith, welcome to Ambridge. She said... So that was the collapse of us all. I'm Jill Burridge, and I was editor of Woman's Hour from 2002 until the end of 2011.

I remember with Dame Judi Dench, for instance, Jenny just won her over by very quietly and gently. Because it is a matter of tone as well, and that's the other thing Jenny gets right, the tone of an interview, just to be quiet with somebody. But without Michael, where's the bedrock of your confidence now? I don't know. You find it from somewhere?

Yes, I find it from... Well, I find it from my daughter and I find it from the people I work with. You know, loss is something that we never get over. When people say time heals all wounds, it doesn't. It doesn't heal. Just we learn when those wounds open again to take a deep breath because they will close for a while and they'll suddenly open. Life is a roller coaster ride. We just ride it out Jesus died for somebody's sins but now I'm mine but how hard is it?

I mean, do you have to get up every morning and sit down? you have to get up every morning otherwise you die, I find, in the end any more questions? yes, before I have a break down here a banana over here for Gerry, please. This is something else I was going to ask you. Do you, because of all this hard work,

have a breakdown like your Juliet Bravo character? Well, if I did... Do you remember what she said? She goes, basically, I'm only a woman and I can't cope with the strain, which is not something that I would ever say about myself. Well, I wouldn't tell you, you see, because I've got this relentlessly balmy image to keep up, and if I said that I was sobbing into my mules of a morning,

then it wouldn't help me in the comedy world, you see. So I'm just going to say, no, I'm relentlessly cheerful all day long, every day. At the end of 2006, I was in the office one evening and I had a phone call from Jenny to tell me that she had been diagnosed with breast cancer. Right from the start Jenny was just adamant that she wanted to be open with the Woman's Hour audience about her diagnosis. And I said you know we've broadcast so often about women's health. We know so many of the audience have had breast cancer.

I cannot just disappear for a month or two, I didn't know how long it was going to be, without saying that, you know, we were supposed to just inform you about it, not actually have it ourselves. Now, before I say goodbye for the holidays, there's something I need to say about me. I shan't be around for a while in the new year because I've just been diagnosed with breast cancer. I'll be having treatment in the coming weeks. The prognosis, by the way, is excellent and I plan to be back as soon as I

feel up to it. Do have a lovely Christmas and I, like you, hope 2007 will be a happy new year. Until then, bye-bye. I think that was a really important indicator of how close the relationship with women's art and the women's art audience is. People would write in and say, now I know I'm not alone, and it was Jenny who did that. And that was one of her great legacies, I think. Oh, that is really good.

So Jenny, as you may have gathered, if you're a regular listener to the programme, really loves food items. She doesn't like eating spicy stuff live on air, I have to say, in case it affects her voice. It's got raisins in it. I think we auctioned the woman's hour cooker because it was so unpredictable.

OK, look. It is now... It bubbles. It bubbleth. It heated up too much or it didn't heat up at all. I'm going to have to move it back because it's going to be too hot. The other tricky point of food items is the timing. If the cook concerned wasn't getting there quickly enough, Jenny would try and chibi things on. Okay, I'm going to put the salmon in.

Don't rush me. Gosh, you're bossy. I thought I was the bossy one. And Mary Berry always used to bring a cake for the Woman's Hour team because she knew we had a weakness for sweet things rather like Jenny does. And underneath that's a layer of apricot jam. So it should be good, shouldn't it?

Mary, it's absolutely gorgeous. I do hope it's not a one-way ticket for the cardiac unit. And do you believe you could actually seduce a young man with a lemon meringue pie? With lemon meringue pie, with a steak and kidney pie, with eggs done very, very well? Oh, yes, you just have to be all that. I mean, catch them at the right time.

Maya Angelou was, I think, probably the most charming woman I've ever met. She was complete and utter delight. Toni Morrison, also amazing. One of the cleverest women I've ever, ever come across. Wonderful, wonderful novelist. But I honestly think the peak of my career has been Joan Baez. Well, I'll be damned Here comes your ghost again

I mean, I was her greatest fan, together with my friend Linda Mead. We liked to think in our teens that we actually were Joan Byers. We knew her entire songbook. So suddenly she was coming in to talk about her autobiography and how much she loved Bob Dylan and how much we had also loved Bob Dylan. It didn't last for very long. Two years, the relationship.

For me, it was long. No, for me, it was probably lengthy. Then it was wonderful. Was it wonderful? A lot of it was wonderful, yeah. That time, those songs, us being sort of thrust together by that circumstance and having fun with it.

She was charming, she was funny, and my absolute favourite song of hers is Diamonds and Rust, which looks back on her long affair with Bob Dylan. And I told her that was my favourite. She sat here in this studio with her guitar, and for my benefit, she actually sang Darnons and Rust, and I cried to myself. Nobody would have known, but I was sobbing inside

because she was so wonderful. Are you telling me you're not nostalgic? Well, give me another word for it You're so good with words If you do a programme like Women's Hour, you have to consistently remind yourself that women are a vast range. There are many, many, many different stereotypes that fit our gender.

So there is no one stereotypical woman. But our sex, we share. Well, I'll take the diamonds. And that is that. And no one put it better in 1971, long before my life on Woman's Hour, than Helen Reddy, whose death we heard of this week. So it's goodbye from me. Thank you all for listening and being such a vital part of the Woman's Hour family.

And thanks also to the three men in my family who've given endless support. David, Ed and Charlie, born in 1987. Take it away, Helen. I am woman, hear me roar In numbers too big to ignore And I know too much to go back and pretend Cause I've heard it all before And I've been down there on the floor

No one's ever gonna keep me down again Oh yes, I'm wise But it's wisdom born of pain Yes, I've paid a price But look how much I've gained If I have to I can face anything I am strong

I am invincible I am strong. I am invincible. I am woman. I am woman. I am invincible. Well, that's all from me as I leave Woman's Hour. I really want to thank you for your support over what's been really rather a long time. Thank you for all your contributions to the programme. Your emails I won't read this time. The team said they'd better do it for me. So from me, bye-bye. I just heard that Janie Murray is leaving Woman's Hour and quite soon. This time the team said they better do it for me. So from me, bye bye.

I just heard that Janie Murray is leaving Woman's Hour and quite soon. I'd like to thank her for accompanying me over many years through lots of events in my life and hers. My children have grown up. I returned to work. My son emigrated to Canada. My husband died after 40 years of marriage. I met a wonderful man and married again. And just this year I became a grandmother.

And Jenny has been a constant companion through all this. I want to thank Jenny for all this and wish her the very best in her future life. I feel I'm going to miss a friend. It has been a great pleasure listening to Jenny Murray this week, knowing that she will be moving on soon. She is the consummate journalist and interviewer. I remember her first Woman's Hour and look forward to hearing her again soon on an airwave I can capture. The programme will not be the same without her. Just heard Jenny is leaving Woman's Hour. Sorry to hear this news as Jenny is a wonderful presenter, conducting interviews with empathy, knowledge and understanding, with a gentle yet probing style, Thank you. and Jenny will be missed. Thanks, Jenny, for your dedication and professionalism,

and best wishes for whatever you go on to do, and I'm sure you are not ready to stop. Gutted to hear Jenny Murray is leaving in October. I've been an avid listener for many years and wrongly assumed she'd be on Women's Hour forever. I will miss your voice, Jenny, but wish you every success in your next ventures. You are my role model. I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year,

I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who's faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this?

What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.