Woman's Hour - Jess Phillips MP, Luis Rubiales case, author Nussaibah Younis

Episode Date: February 21, 2025

We discuss the case of former Spanish football boss Luis Rubiales, who was found guilty of sexual assault for kissing player Jenni Hermoso without her consent at the 2023 World Cup final. Anita is joined by Semra Hunter, a sports broadcast journalist and Virginia Alvarez from Amnesty International Spain.Nussaibah Younis’s debut novel Fundamentally is based on her own experiences working as a peacekeeping consultant in Baghdad. The book follows Nadia, a British Asian woman working for the UN, and her relationship with fellow Brit Sara, a nineteen-year-old three-times widowed member of the Islamic State Group. Nussaibah joins Anita to discuss finding the comedy in a desperate situation.Anita speaks to Minister for Safeguarding and Violence Against Women and Girls, Jess Phillips on the day that Raneem’s Law is launched. Domestic abuse specialists will be embedded in 999 control rooms in five forces to ensure that victims of domestic abuse receive more specialist support.Ukraine is dominating the headlines, but away from the political talks, Ukrainian Fashion Week took place over the weekend in Kyiv. It’s the second time it’s happened in the country since the conflict started three years ago, and the theme was hope. We speak to designer Ksenia Schnaider and organiser Lisa Ushcheka.In the latest Bridget Jones film: Mad About the Boy, Bridget has been widowed and is now a single mother. When the opportunity arises, she slips back into the lifestyle of casual sex, and enjoys a relationship with a man 20 years younger. How difficult is it as a single mother to enjoy a healthy sex life without fear of shame or stigma? Anita discusses with journalist Rebecca Reid.Presenter: Anita Rani Producer: Emma Pearce

BBC Sounds music radio podcasts. Hello, I'm Anita Rani and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Good morning and welcome to the programme. Ukraine has been dominating the headlines again over the past week, three years since the war started there. But life and creativity continue. Today we will hear about Ukraine's fashion week. The government is launching Renin's law, a move to embed the first domestic abuse specialists

in 999 control rooms in five forces to ensure that victims of domestic abuse receive more specialist support. Jess Phillips, Minister for Safeguarding and Violence Against Women and Girls, will be on the programme. Debut novelist Neseba Younis will be joining me to discuss her brilliant new book, Fundamentally, about Nadia, a British-Asian woman working for the UN, and her relationship with Sara, a 19-year-old, three times widowed member of the Islamic State group. It's a very funny book.

And journalist Rebecca Reid wept while watching the new Bridget Jones movie. As a single mum in the dating game, she'd never felt so seen. She'll be telling us about the rules she used while getting back out there. So I'd like to hear from you. Are you a single parent trying to navigate, trying to meet someone? Do you have strict rules? When do you introduce someone to your children? Would you DBS check your date?

Are there rules around when and where you have sex? And you might be getting yourself back out there but what about the judgment of the people around you or worse your own inner guilt and shame? Your single parent dating stories and advice please get in touch in the usual way the text number is 84844 you can WhatsApp the program on 03 700 100 444 and if you'd like to send us an email then go to our website and of course do get in touch with us about any of the items you hear on the program. The text number once again 84844. But first, yesterday news broke that Spain's

former Football Federation boss Luis Rubiales has been found guilty of sexual assault for kissing player Jenny Hamosa without her consent and ordered to pay a fine of nearly £9,000, Spain's high court has ruled. He was acquitted of coercion for allegedly trying to pressure Hamosa into saying publicly that the kiss was consensual. You'll remember that as Spain's players received their medals after defeating England to win the 2023 World Cup, Rubiales grabbed her mosa by the head and kissed her on the lips. The incident triggered protests and calls for the resignation of Rubiales, who said he will appeal against the verdict.

It was one of the first times a relatively new law on consent known as the only yes means yes law has been adopted in Spanish courts. We'll hear more on that shortly. First, I'm joined by Semra Hunter, sports broadcast journalist based in Spain. Semra, welcome to Woman's Hour. So the prosecution called for a custodial sentence. He got a fine. What's the reaction been? It's been very mixed, to be honest with you. On the one hand, I think a lot of women in particular feel that it is a minor victory because he was found guilty of sexual assault,

which translates to this new law that you just mentioned on the yes means yes, actually standing up in court. It was the first time that it was put on trial. It was the first time that it was put on trial, it was the first time that it was actually tested, and it worked. So I think many people felt that that was a small victory. But a lot of other people felt that he got off very easy, that it was a very light punishment, that the fact that it was only 10,800 euros of a fine that he has to pay over the course of 18 months, which is 20 euros a day, they felt that that wasn't enough, in that in some ways it actually detracts from the guilty result that he was given.

But the thing that surprised everybody the most was what you mentioned about the acquittal of the coercion charges across the board, the Rubiales and the other three. People were very surprised by that. And I think they were more concerned about the relationship and the other three. People were very surprised by that. And I think they were more concerned about the relationship and the power dynamics between someone in a position of authority being able to behave this way over a subordinate and get away with it.

So a lot of people were very, very disconcerted with the fact that that was really not even mentioned in the sentencing, that you had a person in a position of power who abused that power over his employee and basically faced no consequences whatsoever for it. So what happened to the three of Rubiales' former colleagues, as you mentioned, they were also on trial. They were accused of colluding in the alleged coercion. Correct. As far as I know, nothing will happen for them now because they got off. They were found innocent. So I understand that Rubiales, however, is very likely to appeal,

not necessarily because he doesn't want to pay the fine, but because he's been so incredibly hell-bent for so long on clearing his name and in trying to prove to the world what he personally believes is his innocence. And actually, I think if I'm not mistaken, he put out a tweet about 10 hours ago where he said, I'm innocent. So there could be a part two to this from Ruby Alice in particular, but from the other three, I think it's it's all over. And what about Jenny Hermoso herself?

Has she commented? Not that I've seen, not as of yet. Irene Paredes, who is one of the captains and one of her teammates, as far as I've seen, she's the only player to have come forward so far to speak openly about this. She was speaking in a press conference and in a very short statement, she effectively said she was very happy with the guilty sentencing as it related to the sexual assault. However, she found it incredibly strange and weird that they were able to be acquitted in the end of those coercion charges. And what will be the impact on the women's team in the long term of this?

It's a great question. I have to be honest with you. I think it's too early to say. It hasn't even been 24 hours yet. I think we need to wait until the dust settles until we can really get a better handle, a better feeling of how this is actually going to affect women's football and women's sport in Spain over the long term. I think it'll be interesting to see what Genelea Hermoso does have to say when the time comes and also what her other teammates have to say when the time comes and also how the relationship now continues to evolve between the women's players and the Federation and to see if other subsequent changes are going to be made and if there's even going to

be a spillover effect in wider society the way that there was when there was such an outrage in the Immediate aftermath of the kiss itself so far that hasn't been the case So I think really it, I know it's cliche to say but time really to really well tell with this one. All right, thank you, Semra. Now, Virginia Alvarez is Head of Human Rights, Justice and Home Affairs Research at Amnesty International Spain and joins us now, Virginia. Good morning. What's your reaction to the news? Good morning. Well, we think it's our first step to give a very clear message that

any non-consensual sexual act could be violence, sexual violence, even a kiss if it's not consented. So I think in that way is very positive. Also, when this law, this organic law, comprehensive guarantee of sexual redress, the law, well known as only yes means yes, passed, was including not only an amendment of the criminal code, but also included other very important provisions like in prevention, detection of violence, investigation, prosecution, and redress of sexual violence. And I think this is a first step to see how this law is going to be implemented.

Because it's not just to have a good law, in our opinion it's a good law, but also needs to be implemented. And the main thing is to have a professional people, professional judiciary and professional police enforcement, a professional medical sector that understands what is gender violence and also fight against stereotypes. You were talking about coercion and how the judge didn't see the coercion. Maybe it's because we still need these gender lenses to be applicable to these type of cases. Can you explain, Virginia, why this new consent law, and as you've mentioned there, that says only yes means yes, why was it brought about?

Well, we were, I think society was asking to have a more comprehensive gender-based legislation. We had in 2004 a comprehensive law on gender-based violence, but only for partners or ex-partners. So many women facing other types of violence feel that they weren't fully protected. I think this law came to fill this gap. And this is why it's important. In 2018, Amnesty International did a research and many of the survivors that we interviewed recall that the most stressful thing for them was not to be believed by the authorities

when they were complaining about sexual violence. So I think it is important because of that, that we have this law, as I said, not only amending the criminal code, but also having other provisions that fully understand what is sexual violence. And what's the broader impact that this verdict could have on Spain's legal system and the types of cases that are brought to trial? Well I think while this law has been enforced in 2022, there are other cases that have been judged. I can recall for instance the one with the football player, Alves,

who was accused of raping a girl in a disco. I think it is important just to give, as I said before, the message of you are not going to be impugned if you are committing this kind of sexual act, non-consented sexual acts. I think it's another way to fight against this macho culture, rape culture, that women have to cope with some attitudes

that doesn't amount violence. And I think there is still a big long way to go. But I think it's a step. And also I think it's very brave for Jennifer Hermoso to take this case to the court. So because she has the power to give this message. I'm not going to cope even with a kiss if it's not a consented sexual act. And has it got people talking about consent in Spain? What are the conversations that are happening? Well, I think there is a lot of conversation about that. I think women are more aware of

what consent means. Also, I know that there is also people mainly men complying about this legislation. But as I said, we need to change the culture. We need to set up the boundaries of what is a sexual relationship based on consent. I think this is very, very important. I have to say that before this legislation passed, the jurisprudence of the Supreme Court was developing in a very good way the consent concept. But this law has brought it to the front line. And I think this is very important

because this is also educational, not only for the society itself, but also for judges. And I think in that case, there's still a big long way to go. We as Amnesty International are quite concerned about the application of some gender stereotypes in which sometimes the victim has to prove that she behave accordingly as she is expected to behave. And we need to fight that and put the whole responsibility on the aggressor. Virginia Alvarez, thank you so much for speaking to me. Virginia is the head of Human Rights,

Justice and Home Affairs Research at Amnion International in Spain. 84844 is our text number if you want to get in touch with the program. Now, on to my next guest. Naseba Younis' debut novel fundamentally is a rare thing, a genuinely funny book about an attempt to deradicalize so-called Islamic state brides in Iraq. Based on Naseba's own experiences working as a peacekeeping consultant in Baghdad, the book follows Nadia, a British-Asian woman working for the UN and her relationship with fellow Brit Sarah, a 19 year old three times widowed member of Islamic State. Naseba, welcome to Woman's Hour. Thank you for having me.

I want to start by saying congratulations, already being talked about as the debut of the year. And I want to start by asking you you because I was wondering what the reaction was when you first went in to pitch a book and say it's a comedy about Islamic State Brides. How does that go down? Well, people were definitely shocked and intrigued and wanted to read on and I think it definitely got a huge amount of attention the moment I went out to publishers and to production companies to have an option for TV. So it created quite a storm from the go, which was amazing. But yeah, it's an original concept, but I think

people really loved having an entertaining and humorous way into quite a serious and substantive issue. Yeah. So what came about first, wanting to tackle this subject or making a comedy? I always wanted to write a comic novel because those are the kinds of novels I love to read. I spent so much time flying to and from Baghdad always with a novel on the plane and I just loved reading books that were both really funny and made me laugh out loud but that also really made me think and gave me a new perspective

on the world and so it was always an ambition of mine to be able to combine the like genuinely entertaining with the really thought-provoking. Controversial topic to say the least, why did you want to find humor in something so serious? I think it's such a polarizing subject and the debate has become really devoid of nuance and I think bringing humanity and empathy back into the story was something I really wanted to do back into the story was something I really wanted to do. And when I, you know, I'd been working in Iraq for quite a long time when I was first asked to design a de-radicalization program for women perceived to have an affiliation with ISIS. And, you know, once I started working on that subject

and the first time I met these women in, you know, displacement camps in Iraq, I realized just how easily it would have been for me as a teenager to have been tempted into a path, you know, where young girls were told that they could change the world, that they could alleviate the suffering of fellow Muslims. And you know, that kind of bleeding heart, empathy and ambition to do good is what led me into a career in peace building. But had that sort of passion gotten into the wrong hands, it could so easily have gone in another direction.

Explain more. Explain just how vulnerable you were then. Talk about like your own experience when you were a young teenager. So I grew up at the time, you know, I watched the genocide of Muslims in Chechnya, I watched the invasion of Afghanistan and then Iraq and it felt to me when I was growing up as a very devout Muslim that Muslims were very much under attack and I spent a summer with a cleric called Anwar al-Awlaki, who was such, I found to be such a charismatic and inspiring preacher. And he later joined Al Qaeda. And I feel very lucky that nobody ever tried to recruit me, because I wonder what would

have happened had I been told this is a way you can really make a difference and this is the right way to help people. And instead I had the chance to go to Oxford University and do a PhD and join the world of international affairs and work for NGOs and to help people that way. But when I was 15 and my brain was quite confused and still half formed and I was quite naive and very idealistic, had somebody tried to persuade me that a jihadist route was the right way to go, I could imagine that that would have been possible and so I've always had so much empathy for girls who were so vulnerable at that time in their teenage years and who didn't have a chance to grow out of it and to find another

way to put their kind of passion and their desire to help to use. How did you get into the line of work? Explain why you ended up going to Iraq? I mean I've just always wanted to help people who were suffering and so I ended up studying Arabic and Middle Eastern politics and then international affairs and I worked in think tanks in Washington DC. I mean you are such a high achieving South Asian woman. Well like you, fakes want to know what you need. Not quite like you though, I mean like totally different levels here. I mean you studied Oxford, Durham, Harvard, PhD in International Affairs,

senior fellow at the Atlantic Council in Washington DC, and then went off to tellers more. Well and then went to do a stand-up comedy course to learn how to tell the nastiest sex jokes known to man. Plot twist. Very good. I can't see any of my colleagues were expecting this. But so what did you, you were brought into Iraq with your expertise to try to deradicalize Islamic State brides? So I was involved in a lot of different peacebuilding projects in the aftermath of ISIS in Iraq.

So a lot of my work was around trying to figure out how to prevent a backslide into violence and to try and reintegrate communities who'd been ostracized because of a perceived link with ISIS. And the most challenging group of people to reintegrate were women, Iraqi women who'd gone to Syria and were being repatriated to Iraq, and they are still being repatriated now to Iraq. And their local communities didn't want them to come home. But for a lot of those women, there was no evidence that they'd actually committed any crimes and a lot of them were forced by husbands and family members into an affiliation with the group.

And so the Iraqi government was interested in demonstrating to the local community that these women were not a threat and didn't have an ideological attachment to ISIS. And so we were exploring how a program could work. The program I designed never came into fruition and my extreme frustrations with working in a mad and complex and infuriating bureaucracy. Definitely come across in the book, which is as much a satire of the UN as anything else. Well, yeah, the picture you paint of the people who are working for the UN and in aid work in general are pretty eccentric, to put it mildly.

Their lifestyle is very hedonistic. How true to life is it? You know, my sister's a therapist and she always says, the bigger your problems, the further you have to run. And so if you've gone all the way from a very cushy life in London and you've ended up in the green zone in Baghdad, you've got personal problems. And I include myself in that. So yeah, I met just extraordinary people from very privileged backgrounds and you know, working at the UN, you've got to be really a high achiever. So we're talking about people with quite privileged backgrounds

who've achieved a lot academically and have still chosen to work in a very challenging environment. And often that is a result of fleeing personal life issues, of wanting to get away from challenges at home, sometimes of having a bit of a hero complex and, you know, I've definitely had my moments, you know, thinking, wanting to be important. And it's such a funny mix of personalities and often not everyone is driven by humanitarian principles. And I found that clash of different characters with complicated backstories and often conflicting motivations for being there. Very humorous and fun to bring out in the book.

It is very funny, incredibly funny and it's a real page-turner. You said you went on a stand-up comedy course. When did you manage to fit all of that in? Well, I did two courses, one in 2019 and one in 2022. And I often had to miss the occasional week as I'd be in Baghdad. But it was such a great discipline for getting me to just constantly think about what was happening in my life in Baghdad that was really funny. Because I was suddenly on the hunt for material. And so I loved having that lens, and so I'd be on the plane back from Baghdad, just typing in my notes every absurd thing a minister had said, and the funny mannerisms of the people I'd been in a meeting with,

and then I'd tell those stories to my stand-up class and see which ones they really liked and then I'd really centre those when I was writing the book. Well let's talk a bit more about the relationship between your sort of Nadia and Sara who is the who's the 19 year old. Why does she invest so much time in her? So Nadia, who is this, you know, heartbroken academic who's really gone to Iraq to flee her, you know, break up and also to flee the issues that she has with her mother. When she meets Sara, she really looks at Sara as a younger version of herself. So when she sees Sarah, she sees someone who has taken a path she herself could so easily have taken. And it's so easy to do in aid work,

to become very invested in an individual. It can be hard to empathize with a big group of people who are suffering. And sometimes we project ourselves onto one person and become very invested in saving them. And so yes, Nadia sees Sarah as a younger version of herself and it leads to a really funny dynamic because can you imagine who could do a better job of criticising you and of hitting your buttons more than a 15-year-old you?

Yeah, yeah, sassy. How do you think she's got all the answers? Yeah, Sarah is such a funny character. I really wanted this kind of ISIS bride character to be, to have gumption. She's not just a victim. She has so much agency as well. And she has a worldview and so many parts of her worldview are totally valid and then so many other parts of it are

driven by just utter naivety and by her age and so that dynamic between Sara and Nadia has so much hilarious conflict because they really know how to bait each other but there is so much love there as well. I also really enjoyed the sort of coming of age of Nadia, the teenage Nadia and her relationship with her mother. I mean you really explore the theme of religious belief and what happens when you don't live up to the expectations that are put on you. Yeah, it's so tragic and I think that for both Yeah, it's so tragic. And I think that for both Nadia the aid worker and Sarah the ISIS bride, once you really get to the heart of their stories and what's driven both of them

as British Asians to end up in Baghdad, it's about a disconnection with their parents, you know, and that sense of not connecting with and not feeling loved and supported and part of their own families. And that central loss and that pain is what's led both of them to seek meaning in, you know, idealistic, you know, in this kind of desire to help other people. But also the role of family is crucial ultimately in rehabilitating them. Absolutely, yeah and you know that really goes back to the research. So the research on this subject shows that if you try and change people's ideological beliefs, that can actually really backfire, it can make people hold even firmer to their beliefs.

You know, who are you to tell me what I can and can't believe about my faith? But if instead you try and focus on changing people's behaviour and if you do that through giving people just better options and a reason to make better decisions, then that is much more effective and the best way to do that is by reinserting people back into a loving and supportive community and so often that starts with family. It is a brilliant book. It's been optioned. Congratulations. Thank you. So you're writing a screen treatment? I'm writing a script.

Fantastic. And are you back in the comedy clubs? Not yet. I'm trying to learn this whole new skill of screenwriting and I also have a contract for a second book. So I am chained to the desk. Nisabe Yunus, thank you so much for coming in to join me. And the novel fundamentally is published on the 25th of February. All this excitement around it and it's not even out yet. 25th of February. Thank you so much. Thank you. 84844 is the number to text.

Now domestic abuse affects more than two million people every year with the police receiving a call about every 30 seconds on average, yet only one in five victims are estimated to report incidents to the police. Today the government is launching Reneme's Law, a move to embed the first domestic abuse specialists in 999 control rooms in five forces to ensure that victims of domestic abuse receive more specialist support. So why is this initiative being started and what impact is it hoped it will have? Earlier I was joined by Jess Phillips, Minister for Safeguarding and Violence Against Women and Girls and I asked her what Renemeem's law is.

Raneem Oda was a woman from the West Midlands in the neighbouring constituency to mine who was victim of domestic abuse and throughout the period of her abuse she called and contacted the police 13 separate times and frankly didn't get the service that from them or a variety of other agencies that she had approached. Along the night she was murdered very sadly along with her mother, Kaula. She called the police four times and nobody came to her and her mother's rescue and she was murdered by her ex-partner that evening. And so, inspired by her and her story and the campaigning of her auntie and the sister of Kaula Noor Norris, we have worked up the policy that is about putting specialists into 999 control rooms. So domestic abuse specialists, people who've worked in the field for many years, independent domestic violence advisors working at charities locally will now sit in 999

call centres. They will be able to listen in to calls, teach the call centre handlers around risk and the sort of flags and the right questions to ask and it's all very much inspired by Reneme's case and what came out in the inquest in Reneme's case. You mentioned Reneme's aunt, Norah Norris there. She's been campaigning for six years. She was on Woman's Hour alongside the Home Secretary of Vancouver almost exactly a year ago. What's the reaction been from the family? Well, Nora is a woman I've known for many of those six years that she has been campaigning. When we told her that we were the five forces that we were initially going to launch in and

asked her to come along with us and launch it. And Nor and I yesterday went to West Midlands Police, the very, very same call centre where the failure had occurred. And when we were telling Nor that we were going to do this, she started to cry, which is totally understandable in the circumstances. And, you know, I gave her a cuddle and she just said, I am just, I feel very, very privileged to have been part of this journey. No, nothing's going to take away. No, I can't bring Reneem back. I can't bring Kaula back. And their case haunts me

as somebody as the Member of Parliament for the neighbouring constituency, I just wish that they had called me like I was streets away. And so like, you know, committing to trying to make this better. And one thing I would say in in Nor's case, and all of the families who I campaign alongside, the trouble is, is too often politicians stand after a woman has been murdered or a child has been murdered where domestic abuse has been a factor and we get these reviews, domestic homicide reviews, serious case reviews and people always say lessons will be learned and it is just words, it is words I have heard again and again and again and again. And myself and Yvette Kuper, and certainly actually it's the person who I've heard say

this more than anyone, is the Prime Minister, said we've got to stop saying lessons will be learned in these cases. We are trying to actually learn the lessons and put in place the action. We can't save Renine now, but would have saved her had she now been calling. So how will these domestic abuse specialists work within the 999 control rooms? What are their duties going to be? So it will vary depending on the different forces that they are within because forces all have completely different control rooms. There are 43 forces in England and Wales and

they all do things slightly differently. But the fundamental is that having specialists within the centres, and yesterday at West Midlands Police, it was right in the heart of where both the 101 calls are being taken and the 999 calls were being taken, there is a vulnerability desk so that any case can be referred into those people for them to look over it and ask the right questions. So, for example, in Renine's case, the question wasn't asked about whether she had a protective order and it didn't come up on the

screen. Now, somebody like me who's been trained in this field for years and years, that would be absolutely Route 101 question that I would ask. I would have said, can you just go and check if she's got any protective orders in place? Can you check on the variety of different things? Look back at her core history and see whether the risk is there. And so the people like me who worked at Women's Aid and organisations like that will be there asking those questions and they will also be involved in direct training, but also the training by osmosis of listening to how to do these calls well by the other call centre staff. We've already pointed out domestic abuse affects more than two million people every year,

given the police receive a call about every 30 seconds on average. I mean, just those figures, you know, we talk about them a lot on this programme, you know, you're very aware of them that also by your own figures, only one in five reports of the police in the first place. This problem must feel overwhelming at times. It is enormous. And as somebody who has worked in this field for many, many years, the volume who has worked in this field for many, many years. The volume is the fundamental problem that we have in this issue. There will never ever be the volume ever to deal so that every single person got their own social worker, their own police officer. The volume is so great and so then I have to look at what else we can do and the government strategy which will be on violence against women and girls which will

be published early summer, well we've got to look at it through a different angle, we've got to start trying to prevent this happening because I am sort of frankly a little bit sick over the years of just putting slightly nicer softer plasters over the cuts and bruises and making one bit of a service slightly better. Like we have got to make sure that when women come forward at every access point that they come forward that they get the very best service and that's what we are doing but I'd like fewer women to have to come forward and so prevention agendas around how we deal with the worst perpetrators, for example, or how we are educating boys and girls about relationships, all of those things, we have to turn the lens on exactly why this problem occurs

and start really trying to do something about that that because we'll never reduce the volume otherwise. Well domestic abuse specialists, one of their duties as you put it is ensuring victims are referred to specialist support services and last month Women's Aid, who you know very well, one of the UK's main domestic abuse charities, published a new report revealing what they estimate is a £321 million funding gap faced by domestic abuse services. They called for the government to take immediate action to reduce this gap and save specialist domestic abuse services from closure. And they're not alone in voicing their concerns about funding. What reassurances

do the government have for them? Because they are doing the front line work, aren't they? Well, I mean, absolutely. And the first thing I'd say is that actually the fundamental is not just that we need to have really good specialist services, we need our generic services, our health services, our police services, our court systems, we need them not to fail victims quite so much so that they would need a specialist advocate. Frankly the existence of that sort of scheme, ones I worked on for many years, is because of failure of state services to actually deal with these things. Now, I have been a person who was the fundraiser for a women's aid. So I recognise the figures around funding and the uncertainty about how things get commissioned and whether

it's short term or long term. And we held a round table with all of those, the sector voices last week in building the strategy on violence against women and girls that was exactly about how things get funded and who should be funding them. But what I wouldn't ever want to do, and I don't think it would be responsible, if I'm perfectly honest, is to say, oh, well, you know, this year, I will just find X amount of money for the funding because I might not be there next year.

You can't, I cannot create a system that relies on it being the flavor of the month of the government of the day. What we have to do with regard to the funding and the provision of services across the piece is we have to make it so that it is business as usual for health commissioners in our local ICBs and our mental health trusts or our police forces to think that this is business as usual and that is what I intend to create. Raneem's law is being launched in five police forces, West Midlands Police, Northumbria, Northamptonshire, Bedfordshire and Humburside. But given there are 43 in England and Wales, when do you hope that this is going to be rolled out to other forces?

As soon as possible. What we have to do is just do a bit of learning in the first phase. I expect at least another five police forces to have come on by the end of the year and the Home Office is providing the funding centrally for the specialist workers to be placed within those centres. It would be very easy for me to sit here and say to you well by the end of the Parliament I expect it to be in every single 43 police forces. But you know what? I expect it to happen considerably sooner than that. So I sort of don't want to commit to print when I think it should have to happen, because I suspect that I will want it quicker than even I'm willing to say. In Reneem's case, she had a non-molestation order in place, but the police didn't know.

Is the sharing of that information now automatic? The system that we saw yesterday at West Midlands Police showed that where people have orders, there is still, there is a problem between because orders are not just given out by police forces. Protective orders, whether that's restraining orders, non-molestation orders are also issued by the Family Court. What we are currently working on is ensuring through quite a manual system that that information can go on from one legal system, the civil court system, into the criminal justice system much much more quickly because as you say that was a problem in Renine's case. However, the domestic abuse

protection orders that we have launched, which are currently operational in Manchester and London, which are showing a completely new order and are showing real success as somebody who's criticised various different orders over the years. I'm very, very heartened by the progress that is being made with the new order regime. And in that case, the order regime is automatic onto the police system. Are you anticipating teething problems? I'm anticipating learning. And I wish that I could say that it will just overnight just be absolutely perfect and every single women's aid worker will be a hundred percent listened to and everything they say will be actioned.

But it will be a learning process. Speaking to the specialist workers in a call centre this week, they've told me how productive they are finding the relationship. What we have to really see is whether it improves the charging rates, whether it improves women's confidence in taking a complaint forward. There are lots and lots of measures that we will have to watch over the next year. But of course, I'd be an idiot if I hadn't planned for teeth in problems. We know that domestic abuse mainly affects women, but will these specialists be trained to support police in the event any men call with concerns?

Yeah, of course. I mean, domestic abuse specialists across the country. I mean, unfortunately, you have to be a specialist in domestic abuse. It often follows the same path. But yeah, of course, any men calling into a call centre should expect the exact same service. And just whilst we've got you, in early January, Elon Musk, on X, called you a rape genocide apologist after you refused Oldham Council's request for a second national inquiry into so-called grooming gangs. You publicly spoke about the situation increasing your risk of harm. Has that calmed down now? It's ebbs and flows. So unfortunately somebody was sentenced to a prison sentence for abusing me

in the aftermath of what Elon Musk had said. I think it was literally the day after, using some of Elon Musk's words to abuse me. And he was sentenced to prison for 28 weeks this week and unfortunately the news of that being broken brings more abuse to my door. So this week there's been a bit of an uptick again, but yeah, I mean look, it has changed my life. My life was already pretty altered by being a woman in front line politics. Who talks openly about women and the need for women to be protected. Yeah, I mean, very few things worse than being a woman in front line politics than one who speaks about women. And of course, you know, like the violence that certainly my colleagues of colour face as well, and actually both men and women, I can think of male colleagues,

male black colleagues who suffer absolutely terrible abuses. And it's very, very sad to say, but it has become part and parcel of my life and to keep on going and to carry on with frontline public life. You do just have to sort of get used to it. It's a horrible thing to say, but it is the truth. Jess Phillips there, Minister for Safeguarding and Violence Against Women and Girls talking about the launch of Renine's Law. And if you've been affected by anything you've heard today, you can go to the BBC Action Line website for links to support and information. Now Ukraine has been dominating the headlines again over the past week, three years since the war started there. We heard from women in Ukraine on Monday's program after a series

of peace talks were scheduled by the US and Russia and by European leaders. Next week, the Prime Minister, Keir Starmer, is due to meet Donald Trump to discuss the ongoing war at the White House. But away from politics, last weekend, thousands of people gathered in Kyiv for Ukrainian Fashion Week. It's the second time the event has taken place there since the conflict began. And this time, the theme was hope for the future. Well, joining me in the studio is designer

Senya Schneider who's just got back from the Ukraine and Lisa Ucheka one of the organizers of Ukrainian Fashion Week and is on the line from Kyiv. Morning to both of you. Morning. Lisa I'm gonna come to you first how did it go? So it went really well and it was a symbolic season for us as the last February season we had in 2022, two weeks before the full scale invasion started. And this season was dedicated to establish brands and designers and to aspiring designers. And the slogan for our season was hope for the future, as you mentioned, because the young generation, there are the faces of the future faces of the fashion industry in Ukraine. And it's extremely important to give the visibility for both established brands and support younger generation.

Yeah. And we'll talk about the experience of what it was like but how different and difficult was it to put on a Fashion Week event compared to before the conflict started and what things did you have to consider this time around? It is absolutely different experience as because of the full-scale war going on in Ukraine because of air raid sirens, because of the full-scale war going on in Ukraine, because of air raid sirens, because of the missile and drone attacks, we have the security protocols and in case of the air raid siren, we have to ask all guests, all teams to proceed to the bomb shelter. And each location is equipped with the bomb shelter.

And we have the main menu, the Mest Stetsky Arsenal and if other events are taking place on other venues, in contract it is written down that nearby there should be a bomb shelter. So the security is our top priority. But probably we are doing something so important and right that there was no air raid siren during this fashion week and it was kind of symbolic because after the last show on the last day after the Gassanova show the air raid siren started and the guests right after

the show had to proceed to the bomb shelter. Senya, you've just got back. You showed. How was your, how was it? How was the experience? It was full of hope, I would say. Because I think it was really important, not only for me and my team, but for all Ukrainian fashion community, let's say, to people, to meet, to have the occasion to dress up. Yeah, it was like full of hope.

And I understand that you left the Ukraine and relocated to the UK after the conflict broke out. So, and you go backwards and forwards between the two countries because your business is still there. So how does that work? Living in two different worlds. Yeah, it's two different worlds? Yeah, it's completely different worlds, like different realities.

It's hard even to explain to someone here what we experience there. Try. It's, I don't know, it's like full of dark, full of pain, tragedy, and still full of hope, positivity, humor, irony. I don't know, it's just the way we live in Ukraine, last three years. And how does fashion help you with, and your work, and particularly what you do? For me personally, it's the way to escape this tragic reality is the way to be creative, to play and to inspire myself, my team and our customers in Ukraine. So that's why I don't reflect on situation in Ukraine. I think it's too early. So that's why my collections are full of joy and positivity.

Lisa, I can see you're nodding away there. What can fashion do that other industries maybe can't? So you know, the language has this power of cultural diplomacy as a language. If you compare fashion to the language that doesn't need a translation, and through this collection, through to the language, it doesn't need a translation. And through this collection, through all the symbolism, through all the creation that prevails over destruction and creation that defies the destruction in Ukraine, through the collections of Ukrainian designers, we can see this big difference because we are on the side of flight and our designers are our

biggest inspiration because among all this tragic news, air raid sirens attacks on a daily basis. They are keep on creating and they inspire us to proceed with our mission to support the fashion industry because it's designers, their teams and thousands of professionals including models, hair stylists, makeup artists and photographers. Many professionals of the industry that are staying in the country and all of the brands they have their production in the country. And we are truly grateful to Ksenia and all of the designers who became the participants of this February season. And Ksenia you said that you know at the heart of your collection you have to use humor and its sustainability to put some of the seriousness of current daily life behind you?

Yeah sustainability is our like DNA part of our DNA since day one because we focused on upcycling and we love to transform something unwanted into something beautiful and but for this season during Ukrainian Fashion Week we created completely not commercial collection, it was like pure creative play for us. We created cubic design, like cubic jeans, square jackets, so it was like our experiment. And hope and joy and thank you so much for both of you. And you're wearing the jeans and they're very nice. I can see you've upcycled a couple of pairs.

They look great. Thank you both for joining me to talk about your experience, Lisa and Ksenia. Now, the latest Bridget Jones film, Mad About the Boy, is in cinemas and provoking a lot of comment. Bridget has been widowed and is now a single mother, but when the opportunity arises, she slips back into the lifestyle of casual sex and is enjoying a relationship with a man 20 years younger. But how difficult is a single mother to have, how difficult is it for her to have a healthy sex life without feeling shame or stigma? Well, this is something the journalist Rebecca Reid has written about. She began by telling me what she made of the film.

I think I cried for 90 of the 124 minutes and some of that is the credits. For me personally, it was the first time I'd ever seen my experience of unexpected single motherhood represented so cheerfully and honestly and beautifully, not a sort of misery memoir, but also not a totally varnished portrayal. I know that her house is worth more than I will ever earn across my entire life by some margin, but it still felt so relatable. At what aspects? So I became a single mum just after my daughter was born and I used dating as the cure for that. I think some people have like different coping mechanisms. Some people like to like

eat through their grief. Some people like to drink through it. I swiped through mine and Bridget admittedly has waited a very respectable four years from the from the death of her previous husband. I waited about four months. I really, really resonated with that feeling of the hope and the joy and the excitement that dating can bring you and also that sort of ability to get back in touch with the person you were before you had children. Like taking a little holiday to who you were before you had to think about other people

before yourself every second of every day. You became a single mother, as you've just explained. How did you approach dating? I had a lot of rules. There was a lot of stigma about dating as a single parent. And some of it is just judgment against women who like to enjoy their own sexuality. Some of it is very reasonable because it's about protecting your children and making sure that

you're not doing anything that makes them vulnerable to harm. I would always say to people if you're going to do this do not mention in your dating profile that you have children because that is a very easy way to make yourself vulnerable to predatory people. I wouldn't introduce somebody to my kid unless we'd been together for six months. So only one person met my child. And if I did introduce them, it would be a wider social circle, not here's your new daddy. And I wouldn't allow any men at all, apart from my dad and brother upstairs in my house, which was a logistical nightmare when we started getting intimate with men and had to do it in the kitchen, which faces onto the road.

Do you have curtains, blinds? Yeah, I have curtains. Some of my rules were a bit bonkers. Like if I matched with a guy on an app and he worked with children professionally, so he was DBS checked, I'd be like, cool, well, that'll do it then. It was a bit odd. I was going around asking men on apps if they had been DBS checked. And if they had enhanced DBS check, then maybe I'd be free on Friday night, which in my experience sounds bonkers. But I think given some of the things my friends have experienced on apps I think I'm in the lower percentage of mad comparatively.

And then some of it was trial and error and I didn't always get it right you know and I think being a new mum and a newly divorcing woman made me very self-centred. My now fiancee will tell you I was a little bit of a, a little bit of a soupy mess when, when I first came along. But it was one of the building blocks that made me feel better. And you do see that in the Bridget Jones film as well. You know, her first, I won't do any spoilers, but not every interaction she has romantically is the forever happy ending, but they take her closer to being the person who is ready to have that happy ending. Because you wrote an article about this and you said that whenever you talk about having

sex with a single mum, you caveat that with details about how you've kept your family unit safe during the whole process. So how much stigma is attached to single mums enjoying a sex life? A lot, a lot, a lot. Because, you know, as a woman, the only reason you're really supposed to have sex is either out of duty to your partner or in order to procreate. And I didn't have a partner and I had already procreated therefore there was no legitimate reason for me to want to have sex so it was incredibly good for me but a lot of my friends would still be like couldn't you have just taken up like

per dal paddle. Wow and what reaction did you get from friends? I think people were very concerned that this was an unhealthy crutch which I don't think it was I think wanting to go out for drinks and be flirted with was a perfectly reasonable thing to want I think there was an expectation crutch, which I don't think it was. I think wanting to go out for drinks and be flirted with was a perfectly reasonable thing to want. I think there was an expectation that because I'd become single and I had a baby, I would just wait it out. And maybe, you know, in 10, 15 years time, I might allow myself one date.

Why do you think they were saying that to you? Some of it was out of concern for me and wanting to sort of protect my heart. But the great thing about dating after your husband, you need to split up with your husband, is that your heart is already sort of pulverized So somebody sending me an inappropriate picture of his genitals Which was annoying did not particularly faze me when I had had to like unpack tenure like work out whose books were whose and

Watch the disassembly of my entire life So you're very resilient when you just had your heart broken very vulnerable as well And I did say to men when I was dating them, you know, I am in a little bit of it. You catch me at a sticky moment. So if you're if you're looking to behave badly, maybe I'm not on to do it with. We talked about the finger wagging and people putting shame on you. But what about your own internalized shame as a single mom? Yeah. And I think that was actually louder and harsher than anybody else's.

And I think there was a big part of me that believed that it wasn't possible that anyone could want to go out with me. You know, I had gained weight through having a baby. I was very sad. I was a single mom. I was 31. I felt like I had nothing to offer anybody and I was kind of a bit worthless.

And the idea that these kind of conventionally attractive young men who lived in London and had careers would want to give up their Friday night to talk to me seemed unthinkable. And also there was a lot of voices internally saying you're selfish, you're a bad mum, you shouldn't be doing this, motherhood should be enough for you, you should be able to just stay home with your baby, all your other friends just staying home breastfeeding, what's wrong with you, why can't you do that? Those are very hard things to think about yourself but actually I understand now that I'm not as good at doing that. Some of my friends are amazing at just being present with motherhood and I'm not.

I need other things. I need activities and stimulation. And then when I am just being a mum, just in vertical commerce, I'm actually really good because I've recharged my batteries in other places. I think dating taught me so much about myself, good and bad. You know, I think it knocks of my corners off. It made me more resilient, it made me more receptive, it made me more open. Is it Dua Lipa that says to get over someone you need to get under someone? Yeah, and that's why she's a philosopher. That's why Dua Lipa has all those doctorates.

Journalist Rebecca Reed there, and you've been getting in touch with your single parent dating stories. My experience of men following the breakdown of my marriage was that they all assumed I must be desperate for sex. That wasn't the case at all. I've remained single with no regrets at all. And another one here saying, as a single parent I asked my mum to have the kids overnight and introduced him slowly. He came for tea, my youngest, then eight years old, said as he left, I bet you're wondering whether I like you. Well, I don't. Out of the mouth of babes. That's all from me. Join me tomorrow for Weekend Woman's Hour.

That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. I'm Nicola Cochlan and for BBC Radio 4, this is history's youngest heroes. Rebellion, risk and the radical power of youth. She thought, right, I'll just do it. She thought about others rather than herself. 12 stories of extraordinary young people from across history. There's a real sense of urgency in them

that resistance has to be mounted, it has to be mounted now. Subscribe to history's youngest heroes on BBC Sounds.