Woman's Hour - Jessie Buckley, Jennie Agg, Nazir Afzal, Zoe Billingham, Martine Oborne, Anne Atkins

Episode Date: February 8, 2023

Nuala McGovern talks to Irish actor Jessie Buckley about her new role as one of an extraordinary ensemble cast in the new film Women Talking. Based on the novel by Miriam Toews, it follows the women of an isolated religious community as they grapple with a huge decision they have to make, as a collective, following the discovery of male violence. Could God go gender neutral in the Church of England and no longer be referred to only as "he" but also as "they" and "she"? Rev Martine Oborne chair of Women and the Church which campaigns for "gender justice" in the church and journalist Anne Atkins discuss.Research estimates 1 in 5 women will lose a pregnancy in their lifetime and 1 in 20 will go through it more than once, but no official record is kept of how many miscarriages happen each year. After losing four pregnancies in the space of two years, with no obvious cause, Jennie Agg set out to understand why miscarriage remains such a profoundly misunderstood, under researched and under acknowledged experience. She has written about it in Life, Almost, which documents her path to motherhood and her search for answers. Dorset Police are investigating allegations that firefighters at Dorset and Wiltshire Fire Service had taken photos of women who had died in car accidents and shared the images on a Whatsapp group. In the group, male firefighters are alleged to have made degrading comments about the victims. Several female firefighters also spoke of sexual harassment, including claims a male firefighter demanded sexual favours at the scene of a fire. Nazir Afzal, the former chief prosecutor for North West England who carried out an independent review into the London Fire Brigade last year and Zoe Billingham, former head of the Inspectorate of Constabulary and Fire and Rescue consider if the fire service has a problem with its culture, and in particular women.Presenter: Nuala McGovern Producer: Lisa Jenkinson Studio Manager: Donald McDonald

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BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, this is Nuala McGovern and you're listening to the Woman's Hour podcast. It is indeed. Hello and welcome. You know, whenever I mention the actor and singer Jessie Buckley, she's famous for Cabaret, Wild Rose and The Lost Daughter, the usual refrain that I get is, oh, I love her. What if you do? You're in for a treat this morning on Woman's Hour

because we have a chat with Jessie coming up about her new role in the Oscar-nominated Women Talking. It's a unique film with a powerhouse cast. Also, I've been reading a book this week, Life Almost. It's about miscarriage and misconceptions about it. It's part memoir, part scientific investigation.

I found it intimate and also deeply questioning about what women go through when they're trying to find answers on why their pregnancies ended early. The author is Jenny Ag. She's going to be with us in the Women's Hour studio this hour. We're also going to speak about the toxic culture

reported by women who work for the fire service. Some of the allegations describe disturbing behaviour, including taking inappropriate photographs of victims and making degrading comments about the women that they were sent to help. You'll also hear shocking testimony from women who worked for the London

Fire Brigade and who spoke out when it was reviewed. We'll take a look at that service and also others around the country that are now coming under scrutiny and also what the services have said in response. You can text the programme 84844 text will be charged at your standard

message rate. Our social media is at BBC Woman's Hour or email us through our website and as usual if you want to send a WhatsApp message or voice note in response to anything you hear on the programme, that number is 03700 100 444. But I want to begin instead

with the Church of England. Their governing body, the General Synod, will debate proposals later today to allow priests to bless same-sex couples following a civil partnership or marriage.

Last month, the Church said it would refuse to back a change in teaching to permit clergy to conduct same-sex couples following a civil partnership or marriage. Last month, the Church said it would refuse to back a change in teaching to permit clergy to conduct same-sex marriages, which were introduced in England and Wales in 2013. And it'll be interesting to see how that goes. But another issue that has been mooted in the news today, maybe you saw this, is whether the Church should continue to refer to God as He. The Reverend Joanna Stobart, the Vicar of Ilminster and White Lackington in Somerset,

has called for an update on more inclusive language in Church of England services and to refer to God in a non-gendered way, so using they or she, which would be gendered. I'm joined now by the Reverend Martine O'Byrne, Vicar of St. Michael's in Chiswick in London, Chair of WATCH, Women in the Church, a national campaign for equality in the Church of England. Also Anne Atkins, a novelist and author of Split Image, Male and Female After God's Likeness. You're both so welcome. Thanks so much for joining us. Let me begin with you, Anne. Is this a debate on language worth having? Oh, yes. Debates on language are always worth having. Language is very important and inclusive language is very important. on language worth having? Oh, yes. Debates on language are always worth having.

Language is very important and inclusive language is very important. So yes, of course it's worth having. And there's a lot of Judeo-Christian tradition and scripture which we ignore, dare I say, because for the last 2000 years, most theologians and preachers have been men. So they miss a lot. I was asked last year, I was commissioned by the publisher Encore to write a song for Mothering Sunday

Mother's Day as most people call it now and I wanted to Mothering Sunday can be very excluding for people who haven't got children or who you know for all sorts of reasons but the one thing we all have in common is we all have a mother or had a mother. And throughout scripture, there are these wonderful images of God as our mother. And my whole song was on those images. And there's such a wealth of it, of Jesus referring to himself

as Mother Hen, gathering chicks, of us being like on the back of an eagle, soaring, you know, God giving birth to us is in the Old Testament. And there's so much there that we're not aware of that I think this is terrific. Yes, to mine this wonderful wealth of imagery. Would you have an issue with it being non-gendered? It, you mean God? Yes. God, not an it, God is a person. God is referred to throughout scripture as he. Now, there is a reason for this, and we tinker around with these wonderful scriptures at our peril. I think there's a very good reason why

God is referred to as he, and I don't think we should interfere with that. I certainly don't think we should call God they, because they is a plural pronoun, and although God is three in one, again, he is consistently referred to throughout scripture as he, and there's a reason for this, because also throughout scripture, there's a lot of imagery about the difference between, I'm going to say sexes, not genders, the difference and the equality and interdependence. So no, I don't think we want to refer to God as she or they, and I don't think we will, but we certainly need to enjoy the wealth of imagery of God as our mother. And they, of course, has been used recently, often to refer to an individual,

not always to a plural. Eva, let me bring in Martine. You know, you've heard a little of what Anne is saying there, but what do you think about is being discussed? Potentially, particularly their talk about the word father, they talk about the word he. Would you like to see that changed? Well, I agree with almost everything that Anne has said

there I mean I think language is extremely important I mean I'm not enough to remember when there was a debate about whether policemen should be called police officers and I have to say I didn't really feel too strongly about it at the time but I'm jolly glad that we did make those kind of changes because it does make a difference and you know language can be very excluding and I know lots of women and girls in the church who really struggle when they first encounter a God who they come to see as male male male male as father male as son a male as a holy. So I do think language is important. And also, I think it can be confusing, because when we give the impression that God is exclusively

male, then we are actually really giving a false impression who we understand to be God. And as Anne's already said, in scripture, we see God being reflected as male and female. And he creates humanity in his own image, male and female. He creates them. And so anything that really takes us away from, you know, a rather clumsy and lazy picture of God as some old man sitting on a cloud, I think is really helpful because that does a disservice to our faith as Christians, because we believe in God as love and the source of our being and beyond gender so I mean that does uh and also it's not just script in fact interestingly this is not any kind of new wokery sort of thing I mean not only do we find these references to God as mother um in our scripture I mean back in medieval times medieval theologians had a much better understanding of God as mother as well as father. And Julian of Norwich, a wonderful female 14th century mystic, says God is our mother as truly as he is our father. May I ask you how it was like the Reformation that really put paid to that, closed all the convents.

And, you know, we got woman placed very firmly in the home. Let me turn to the word they because I did ask Anne as well. What if that were introduced? Well, I can see that would cause a lot of discomfort in the pews. I mean, people on the whole don't like change and particularly in the Anglican church, people really struggle with change. And I think, you know, any changes in the use of pronouns in reference to God does need to be handled very sensitively. But actually, I don't see that there's anything wrong with mixing it up and saying he sometimes, saying she sometimes, or even saying they. I mean, yes, it would cause people to feel a bit uncomfortable and ask some questions,

but probably that's a healthy thing. Well, if it helps us to have a better and fuller understanding of who God is. Well, Martine, people, sorry, Anne, I'm just going to read one of the comments coming in and I'd love to get your response as well because it's specifically about father. This is Lizzie saying, I regarded the use of father as meaning an all protective strong figure,

but it's been misinterpreted as men owning the earth and having power over it and all creation. Maybe goddess is the way forward, Anne. Well, C.S. Lewis wrote a very interesting article on this and on the cultures that have had goddesses. And let's say, you know, we've tried this before. We've had lots of religions with goddesses. I would point people to the Lewis essay because he talks about how it creates a totally different kind of faith. And so we tinker with it at our peril, actually. I agree with an awful lot of what Martine is saying, yes.

But what I would want to say is Jesus obviously had the most perfect understanding of God any human being has ever had. He always referred to God as he. Now, Jesus came to earth as a man because he had to come as one gender or the other. He came to earth as a man, and there are lots of good theological reasons for that. But Jesus also had wonderful what we think of as feminine characteristics. He was, you know, the children's story, gentle Jesus, meek and mild is how we think of a mother. So, I mean, Martin and I are agreeing with most of this, that we must understand what, you know, feminine and masculine are human understandings.

God is way beyond that. But we must understand the feminine, what we think of as the feminine attributes of God, which, of course, are as many as the masculine. Because, as you said, Martinin god created us male and female a couple more coming in god is not a person and certainly not a man um and if it's not a person are there feminine or masculine qualities that's another question christian understanding is god is a person that's terribly important the personal god and i suppose what they're yes exactly and that depends how people interpret it pete getting in touch he he says, our mother who art in heaven, really? Question mark. Let me talk about our father, because that is one very concrete example that was coming up with that prayer that the father would be omitted. Martine?

Yeah, I don't think that there's a need to change the Lord's prayer. I mean, we are, to the best of our our ability quoting that prayer that Jesus gave to his disciples and he is using there the metaphor of God as a father with all that that kind of implies and I don't think we it's not that we want to uh chuck that out uh but I think it's about bringing to the fore uh the the more feminineors, as Anne has already talked about, Jesus referring to himself as a mother hen, for example, and things like that. the Lord's Prayer. But I think that it would be very enriching to start using language to show God as beyond gender, still personal, but beyond gender. Let me throw another couple of things at that

are coming into us. I did see our mother father was one that was used by one fellowship, so somebody who was getting in touch. And I do want to also read the Church of England statement. This is nothing new.

Christians have recognised since ancient times the God is neither male nor female. There is absolutely no plans to abolish or substantially revise current authorised liturgies and no such changes could be made without extensive legislation.

Well, even just a peek at our text coming in at the moment begin to give us an idea that people do feel strongly about it. But before either of you go, I do also want to ask

the Church of England's governing body, the General Synod, will debate proposals later today to allow priests to bless same-sex couples following a civil partnership or marriage?

Briefly, your views on this. Anne, let me start with you. Yeah, I just have to just finish off the last bit of the debate. God as father, there's a lot of imagery about God as the bride and humankind as the, sorry, God as the groom and humankind as the bride. And that is eternal imagery. We mustn't lose sight of that. Yes, going on to this, what a difficult one. The church can't really win on this, I think. I don't know where it's going to go. Personally, I think the problems were laid down in 2002

when Synod approved the remarriage of divorcees in church with partners still living. Now that is, many people would say, going against scripture because of bowing to popular opinion. Having done that for divorcees with partners still living. Now that is, many people would say, going against scripture because of bowing to popular opinion. Having done that for divorcees with partner still living, how can we not, I mean, the same arguments apply to same-sex marriage. So denying same-sex marriage when we've allowed the remarriage of people who are married already is a deep problem, I think. Well, I don't know. Okay, this is not very important,

but my personal opinion is that blessing a relationship that's already in place is something I am comfortable with the church doing. Those priests are comfortable with it. Formalising a relationship that many people see as totally outside scripture is problematic. Okay, let me turn to, I've got your thoughts on, Martine. Well, I would really like to see an end to all discrimination in the church. And so I guess that's where I stand.

And in that respect, I would like to see clergy given the discretion to officiate at same-sex marriages. I think that, you know, where the church is making a mistake is not being clear about what we are against and what, you know, scripture and our understanding of God is passionate about is that we are against exploitation. We are against promiscuity, we're against unfaithfulness, we're against abusive behaviour. You find those things in both heterosexual relationships as well as homosexual relationships. And this is where the church should be speaking out about how we are treating one another. But where we've got two people who are committing to each other in love and respect and faithfulness, then I think we

should be honouring and affirming that. Can I just say, my views spelt out more, I've got a piece in The Independent today. Coming out. And indeed, if people want to read more from Anne Atkins, who has been with us on Woman's Hour, That is a place to find a few more of her thoughts. I also want to thank Reverend Martine O'Byrne joining us today on Woman's Hour. I want to turn now instead to Dorset Police, among others. Dorset Police are leading inquiries into claims that firefighters at Dorset and Wiltshire Fire Service

allegedly took photographs of women who died in car accidents. ITV News was reporting that images were shared on a WhatsApp group in which male firefighters allegedly made degrading comments about victims. Several female firefighters also spoke of persistent sexual harassment, including claims that a male firefighter demanded sexual favours at the scene of a fire. So does the fire service have a cultural problem? And in particular with women, what can be done to improve it? I'm joined by Nazir Afzal, the former chief prosecutor for North West England

who carried out an independent review into the London Fire Brigade, you might remember last year, and found it to be institutionally misogynistic and racist. I'm also joined by Zoe Billingham, former of His Majesty's Inspectorate Constabulary and Fire and racist. I'm also joined by Zoe Billingham, former of His Majesty's Inspectorate Constabulary and Fire and Rescue. Lovely to have both of you with us. Thank you so much for joining us. Let me start with you, Zoe. What do you make of those alleged allegations against the firefighters at Dorset and Wiltshire Fire Service? Morning, Una, and hello as well, Nzia. Good to see

you. They're shocking, aren't they? I mean, these are allegations. We have to remember that there's a police investigation. But sadly, this doesn't surprise me, having read Nazir's review of London Fire Brigade and actually drawing on the experience that I had when I was part of the fire service watchdog. You know, as long ago as 2018, when I published my first report on the culture within the fire service across England, I was really quite shocked by the behaviours that we saw at that time. So this is four years before Nazir's report. I mean, extraordinarily outdated practices, you know, things like women firefighters not having separate changing rooms,

they're not having protective kits that fitted the female form. And what was more surprising, I suppose, for me at that time, was that these outdated practices, they weren't sort of happening under the radar, under the surface. They were actually the norm. They were in plain sight and they weren't being called out for what they are. And obviously, you know, what we're seeing now is the sorts of behaviours where women are being daily subjugated to abuse under the guise of banter, which is simply not good enough within the fire service. And as we were mentioning there, Nazir, of course, that review that you undertook and finding the London Fire Brigade institutionally racist and misogynist.

What I want to do first is hear from two female firefighters who contributed to that review. Their words are spoken by actors. I've been a firefighter for over 20 years and it took me a few days to recover after completing your survey. I still have flashbacks of senior staff members humiliating me. Even though I had plenty of experience working in a male environment before I came here, nothing prepares you for London Fire Brigade. They make you feel so worthless and small. My first station was just awful. I was always the newbie, always had to make the tea, do the inventories, wash up and do every other menial task whilst being constantly soaked with water,

dumped in a sink, held over a hydrant and having my development record ignored. I used to get punched and humiliated regularly and it got to the point when I couldn't take much more. I was a woman in my 30s with a child and I couldn't understand why they were treating me like this. After several torturous years at the station, the usually drunk temporary leading firefighter yanked the hose reel off me at a grass fire, pulling me into a ditch. It was at that point I couldn't take any more abuse and I asked to be transferred to another station. It did get better for a while, but not long. I was at a station where they used to watch porn videos. It was an incredibly macho environment.

One firefighter in particular used to show the watch videos on his phone of him having sex with women. I ignored it for a long time and then finally had a chat with my sub-officer. This man knew my mobile number and I used to get anonymous video calls from a man with an erection saying to me, you want this, don't you? Calling me by my name. This happened many times and my husband witnessed it. I decided to tell this man that I'd changed my phone number and then the obscenities stopped. I've been to counselling to help with the feeling of utter helplessness at times and really to confirm if I should change and say nothing. They told me they admired my honesty and ability to stand up and tell the truth

despite being persecuted and I should continue to do so, despite the cost to me, because it's the right thing to do. When you start at London Fire Brigade, you're thrown straight in the deep end. As a new buck, you know they'll make it hard at first. That's part of the initiation, right? Having your personal development record put in the freezer, getting tied to a ladder and soaked or bucketed from a window. It's standard fire brigade.

But it's a lot worse as a woman. You're told you only got the job because you're a woman, that you're there just to fill a quota and you're useless. Then they drive over your shoes, throw your kit in the bin, grope your breasts on hoist training. They comment about your body and undermine you all the time verbally and, at times, even physically. One guy kept telling me I was a useless driver and tried to drag me out the seat while I was reversing.

I'd been punched, slapped and had my hair pulled too. Before long, I was on antidepressants. If you complain about bullying, it goes nowhere. I did once and my crew manager lied and said he'd seen nothing. I've never put a grievance in. If I did that, my career would be over. It's an incredibly laddish culture and diversity isn't valued at all. There's lots of farting, burping and sexist jokes and plenty of racism. People

constantly going on about muzzers. We had terrorism training and my watch kept pointing out the window at brown people. Oh, there's one, there's one and another, they kept saying. I've been there over 10 years now and it's never got any better. If you don't fit in, they'll make your life hell. I mean, it's shocking listening to that. I've listened to it a couple of times, if I'm honest. Azir, you know, they illustrate what the women went through. We can understand why it gave rise to 23 recommendations in your review. Do you think these stories and the findings are unique to the London

Fire Brigade? Good morning Nuala and Zoe no absolutely not London if anything is ahead of the game because it had an independent review and has accepted all the recommendations and is in the process of delivering them and what I've been learning actually since the report came out at the end of November is I've been approached by I can since the report came out at the end of November, is I've been approached by, I can't begin to tell you the number of female firefighters across the country who have shared equally awful experiences of abuse and misogyny. I've spoken to women who have alleged rape and sexual misconduct. I've spoken to women who are suffering PTSD, who have been driven towards suicide. I've spoken to women firefighters who say that their equipment has been tampered with when they complained about their abuse, which definitely

puts them in serious danger. Women, other women who were told, you know, watch yourself. If you complain, watch yourself because we have to go in together into a fire. And that, you know, the examples you gave, photos of women being taken, WhatsApp messages, Facebook groups. It is endemic, I'm afraid to say. And, you know, as I say, London is not in denial because it accepts everything. I'm really concerned, as we discovered with the reports around Dorset and Wilshire. I can think of six other forces that are, if I had the resources, I'd be in there right now, Zoe, because of what people have been telling me.

And it is absolutely prevalent beyond measure, really. And to give you, the answers are leadership. And West Sussex, for example, have already instituted or about to commission their own cultural work without waiting for a victim to come forward and talk about their experiences. And surprise, surprise, West Sussex is led by a female chief fire officer, which might tell you a little bit about the issue. It is everywhere. And I will say, I've gone far and say this is the Fire and Rescue Service's me-too moment. And unless they act upon this uh they will drive away hundreds of

phenomenal people who are working tirelessly to keep us safe and i'm afraid to say it's a national failure and actually i'll be honest with you nula international failure i've been approached by fire officers across europe uh across australasia and across the united states of america as if i've got any power in there but but it is interesting because I was wondering, Zoe, what your thoughts are. Nazir there mentions leadership, of course, but Danny Cotton, I will say, was a woman who did lead the London fire.

She was the commissioner between 2017 and 2019. But is this about the environment which firefighters work? Because Nazir's talking about he's been called into the same sort of situation around the globe. Is it the macho image of the firefighter having control or structural attracts a certain type of person? What do you think, Zoe? I think it's a bit of all of that. And I think Nazir is absolutely right.

It's no surprise to me at all and if we look across what's been happening in policing most recently with these catastrophic stories of abuse of position there will be pockets of wholly toxic masculinity racism homophobia and bullying within every fire and rescue services in England, Wales, I suspect Scotland as well. There will be no geographic boundaries. I think that we start with leadership. We have to ask ourselves, is the right culture being created within our organisations to encourage women in the first place? Only 8% of our firefighters are women at the moment, Nuala. That compares to 33% of police officers who are women. We have to have a conversation about this isn't about box ticking,

this isn't about wokeness, this isn't about political correctness of having women in these roles. These are roles that women can do. They can bring insight, they can bring different perspective, and they can change the culture and the tone of that macho watch culture and that's precisely what needs to happen. You know you talk about women actually joining the service but what about this we've talked about female firefighters but in Nazir's report one woman wrote this it's now reached a point with me that I tell my female friends not to let male

firefighters into their house I would advise any single woman not to let male firefighters into their house. I would advise any single woman not to let them in to check smoke alarms. Why? Because I know what they do. They go through women's drawers looking for underwear and sex toys. Nazeer, one of your recommendations was to consider introducing body-worn video for fire safety home visits because so much of the firework isn't

putting out a fire. Of course, it's everything else as well, prevention, etc. No, absolutely. And again, good news. London Fire Brigade have putting out a fire of course it's everything else as well prevention etc yeah yeah no absolutely and again good news uh london fire brigade have not only committed to body worn camera when you engage with the public um they've actually purchased it um and that tells you how committed they are to tackling this issue whereas of course others because i didn't want i didn't want a situation where you turn away a fire officer who's going to look at your smoke alarm. You know, that's the last thing we want,

given the dangers that that provokes. So we've got to rebuild confidence. And one way of doing that is to give assurances that anything that is said would be recorded in some way, shape or form. But, you know, I don't want to go there. You know, the reality is that this is a misogyny that we've identified across the country, dare I say, across the world, needs to go there. The reality is that this is a misogyny that we've identified across the country, dare I say across the world, needs to be addressed.

And what we're doing is trying to rebuild confidence by actions outside of the organisation or when they come into contact with people. But actually, they need to address, investigate every single complaint. They need to have independent investigation of all these complaints. They need to, as they have done in London, already suspended people and then ultimately discipline them through proper processes and ultimately eject people from the fire service when they're not fit to be there. This is a groupthink, sadly. You asked why. There's a narrow-minded groupthink that struggles to accommodate a difference in diversity.

They tell women to fit in or think of the words that might follow that. Women are expected to conform. Even the PPE, what they wear is not unisex. And then when they complain about it, they're told,

you just keep whinging. And that is the culture. We will continue to follow up on this. Nazir Afzal, thank you so much. Zoe Billingham, also thank you. I do want to read some of the statements that have come into us from Dorset and Wiltshire Fire Service.

They've said, the matters you've raised with us are deeply concerning. We take allegations of this nature extremely seriously. As allegations of criminal behaviour are involved, we have immediately alerted the police

so the appropriate action can be taken. And also that they are commissioning, they say, an independent investigation which will provide female staff with the opportunity to speak to an independent organisation. And with the London Fire Brigade, they have responded that their independent

culture review was a watershed moment for the brigade. They're delivering on all 23 recommendations to ensure that our staff have a safe and modern workplace, they say. I can see as well that some of you are just shocked at that audio that you heard, the voices of the women firefighters actually played by actors sharing their experiences. Absolutely appalling behaviour of the male teams across many fire stations in the UK.

That's Caddy getting in touch with us here on Woman's Hour. Now, a quick question for you before I move on to our next interview. Have you ever walked away from a happy relationship because you and your partner disagreed about wanting children? Maybe you're in the position right now. I don't know. Maybe both of you are really sure that what you're deciding is the right way, but will it drive you apart? Maybe you did that already or did what your partner wanted to do and regret it. I want to hear it all. We're going to be discussing it on Woman's Hour.

So let us know your experiences. Also, any advice you might have for somebody who's going through it right now. You can get in touch on our website or on social media. That's at BBC Woman's Hour or a voice note. Indeed, we'd love to have your experience. But at BBC Woman's Hour is one place to start on social media or just take a look at our website. Right, I want to turn to the Irish actor, Jessie Buckley,

a woman of many talents. She's been nominated for a BAFTA, an Oscar, the Mercury Music Prize, yes, and last year won an Olivier Award for her performance as Sally Bowles in the acclaimed West End production of Cabaret, in which she starred alongside Eddie Redmayne. Now, Jessie first came to prominence as a contestant in the BBC talent show I Do Anything, where she came runner-up, surprising maybe, and she has forged a career since then as an actor and musician and is now one of an extraordinary ensemble cast in the new film Women Talking. It's written and directed by Sarah Pauley and it is based on the novel of the same name by Miriam Taves.

It follows the women of an isolated religious community that are grappling with a huge decision that they have to make as a collective and it is following the discovery of male violence in the community. Jessie plays Marike who often finds herself in conflict with the other women. Here's just a flavor. I want to stay and fight. But won't we lose the fight to the men and be forced to forgive them anyway? I want to stay and fight too. No one's surprised that you do. All you do is fight. Is this really how we are to decide the fates of all the women in this colony?

Just another vote where we put an X next to our position? I thought we were here to do more than that. You mean talk more about forgiving the men and doing nothing? Everything else is insane. But none of you will listen to reason. Why are you here with us? Why are you still here with us if that is what you believe? Just leave with the rest of the do-nothing women.

She is my daughter and I want her here with us. Is forgiveness that's forced upon us true forgiveness? Keep nonsense like that to yourself, please. Some of the cast of the new film Women Talking There, including Jessie Buckley as Marie Kay. And when I spoke to Jessie, I asked There, including Jessie Buckley as Marie Kay. And when I spoke to Jessie, I asked her why she chose to play that particular woman. She's not an easy character. She's not a palatable character. She's kind of, she's hard work in many ways.

And I knew parts of that woman in my own life. And I guess I wanted to understand where that pain might come from. And I was really kind of excited about the idea of actually going on a journey of unlearning a legacy of something that we know about ourselves, that this character could believe that there was something enough to hope for in this life. She's spiky, right? She's got a few spikes, yeah. She totally does. I mean I can't stop watching her when she is on screen

when she's in the hayloft which I want to also talk to our listeners about in just a moment but it is these women sitting around and what an ensemble cast I mean we have to talk about that. Marike is one of the characters, but you're also surrounded among many others, might I add,

Claire Foy, Rooney Mara, Frances McDormand, for example. What was that like? It was extraordinary. It was so exciting to go to work every day. You never knew what was going to happen. To be even part of a, you know, I've never really read anything where actually female relationships and dynamics were being explored like that. And to be able to go to work and know that you're going to be standing

in front of and beside some of the most extraordinary actors that we have in this time was thrilling, you know. But it was like sometimes people would just take your breath away, you know, and there is so much respect kind of what happened in the hayloft stayed in the hayloft and we never really discussed any of it. We just kind of. We just respected what was kind of happening in real time. Without spoiling anything in the film, there is a basic premise that the women of the colony have to decide whether to stay and fight or whether to leave. And when you're watching this film, there's this tension and urgency. I thought actually at times claustrophobia in that hayloft where so much of it is filmed.

And I just loved, you know, when they opened the barn doors and they let the outside in and I kept thinking what must it be like to be there in the midst of it in this very deep intense fast dialogue at times slower and music but constantly surrounded by those women. I think having somebody like Sarah Pauley at the helm manning this incredible ship that was about to take sail was such a gift, you know. I've definitely learned that you can lead in a different way from having worked with her. And she did that with such kind of powerful vulnerability and included everybody's perspective and allowed it all to exist together that anything was possible and it's I don't these things don't come around very often

unfortunately you know it shouldn't be remarkable that like a story like this could take place but it is and I feel so grateful and proud to be part of this because I hope this might happen again. But I'm very glad that it has happened to me in my lifetime. Was being directed by Sarah Pauley different perhaps to male directors, do you think? I mean, everyone's different, you know, every director is different. And I have loved all the directors that I've gotten to work with. I really admire Sarah. I think she set new goalposts for me as an actress.

And I think I expect a lot more from the workspaces that I step into and also the world that I step into. And knowing that she's created that in this film with this group of actors and started a conversation and even an articulacy with the younger generation who know that there is they don't just have to be good girls. There is a lot more expected of them and they can also expect a lot more from the world. I mean, that's the best bit of it. You said during the filming at times it felt like you and the others were not acting but changing each other in real time. Explain that to me.

I guess to allow yourself to be changed in real time, you kind of just have to stand in front of the people who are going to do that for you. And people that were doing that were just incredible and we were doing these scenes we shot them everything in sequence and sometimes we would shoot one scene over three days 150 times because there was nine different perspectives of this moment in the story happening and every single one of us stood and were there for each other in every single take. So you could really just experience it. You know, you didn't have to perform anything because

the emotion that was living between us all and because this story is something that us as women, we have had this conversation with ourselves privately, maybe sometimes quietly with a friend or whatever, but we were actually having it all out. Like everything was coming out. Yes, and I suppose about when you have agency or when you don't or when you're able to make a decision, what is the best thing for you in a certain circumstance? There is a moment in the film where your character, Marike,

challenges the other women's perceptions of her as somehow colluding in the men's behaviour. And that seems quite key in terms of the decision that they then go on to make. Talk me through a little bit. It probably was 150 takes

for that one as well. But, you know, that moment in the film and I suppose Marike's character at that point, that really, it feels the film pivots after that. Yeah, I mean, that was such a brilliant thing to learn through this character that like, I guess what this story offers isn't, it isn't about divisiveness between men and women. You know, the women have been as good students as the men in inheriting a violence and a legacy of something that has made a community sick in some shape or form. And actually, for Marike, it's not just the present violence that she's trying to survive,

but it's like a legacy that goes back past her mother and past her grandmother and her great grandmother and the things that we have said that we can't say for fear that we might survive. And I think that's really true. You know, I think there's a lot that we need to explore with each other as women as much as we need to explore with men. There was also, I saw with Frances McDormand

also in the film, Scarface Jans, as she is. She also is one of the producers. She said, it's not about taking down the patriarchy. It's about illuminating a matriarchy that has been there

since time immemorial. Yeah. And I think there's a lot of hope in this film. You know, this film, it isn't about destructing something. It's about building something else and in a way, building a courage and building a bravery and building enough hope to go somewhere unknown. And where that is, like, look, look all these women they're not going off to utopia they don't know where they're going they've never left the compounds they have never read a map they're literally going into an abyss but to have the bravery to change I mean that's

really what this film is about is like you have to do something in order to change something. And these women, the very act of deciding to meet in a hayloft is radical. You know, these women are meeting to discuss their own fates and democratically have that thrashed out and allow everything to exist. So many contrasts. I loved the film, I have to say as well. I just loved it, Jessie, from beginning to end. It's also epic which people mightn't be thinking of. We're thinking these women in a hayloft speaking to one another but, you know, it's big

vistas, it's really the film and the setting, the story, all of it, epic is the word that comes to mind, particularly when you see it on the big screen, which maybe people wouldn't expect. I'm just curious how you felt the first time you saw it on the big screen oh my god it blew me away I really I never really know uh it's very hard to be objective about something when you're in the middle of something and often you step away and

go oh my god well that's it everybody's gonna find you out now, Jessie. Time to pack up. And I honestly, I couldn't believe the effect that this film had on me in ways that I just didn't expect in a kind of like unconscious way. I can't even articulate exactly what it is, but it has it left me with so much hope and so much feeling and so much laughter and so many memories. And I was a snotty mess while kind of laughing loudly. And I think that's always what you hope for. You know, you always hope that you make something that will affect somebody or something in some way. And what's been so exciting about, you know, this film going out into the world and being traveling around with it with different festivals is seeing that effect and seeing it kind of provoke conversation. like this is the potential to be a turning point in the stories that we tell in film and in art

and how we make film and how we tell these stories and how collectively we can actually change the course of our own lives if we actually decide to do it differently. It will please you to hear that there was also people in the

screening snotty messes as well. But let me turn because I talked about those big vistas that are on this film that are incredible. But you're from a place with very beautiful views as well. You're from Killarney, the town of Killarney in County Kerry, and they must be so proud of you there. But I'm just wondering what happens now that you were a superstar when you walk down Main Street? Oh, nothing. wondering what happens now that you were a superstar when you walk down main street oh nothing the same the same as always i'm still i'm still from i you know it's so lovely to go home and see my family and i don't know you're i'm i'm the same it's the you know it's nothing really you still have the same chats with people you used to buy ice cream from or friends that you see. And yeah, I love going back.

You know, getting any time to kind of go home and be back in amongst the mountains in Killarney and jump into the sea and just be yourself is, that's, it's such a great feeling. The wonderful Jessie Buckley. Wonderful when she's herself or playing another part, as she did as part of the stellar ensemble cast in Women Talking which comes out in cinemas this Friday the 10th of

February. I want to turn to miscarriage now. Research estimates that one in five pregnant women will lose a pregnancy in their lifetime. One in 20 will go through it more than once. But no official record is kept of how many miscarriages happen each year and a woman has to go through it more than once. But no official record is kept of how many miscarriages happen each year.

And a woman has to go through three consecutive miscarriages before any NHS support or treatment is offered to her. Well, after losing four pregnancies in the space of two years with no obvious cause, the journalist and writer Jenny Ag

set out to understand why miscarriage remains such a profoundly misunderstood, under-researched and under-acknowledged experience. She's written about it in a book called Life Almost. It's part memoir, it's part investigation and it documents her path to motherhood and also her search for answers and she joins me now in the Woman's Hour studio. Good morning. Morning, thank you so much for having me. We're so glad that you're here.

You have, as I mentioned, their personal reasons for doing this. And it begins when you're newly pregnant for the fifth time. I was struck by your chapter titles that are, it's so common, at least it was early, nature's way, things that perhaps you heard. Yes, all the chapter titles in the book are taken from things that perhaps you heard? Yes, all the chapter titles in the book are taken from things that either I was told personally or sort of ideas that are thrown around a lot around miscarriage that are perhaps misconceptions really that we have about what causes it or what it's like to go through

or often that diminish the experience really. You were told it's very common, as have I'm sure so many of our listeners, and I mentioned the numbers there, an estimated one in five women. But why don't we know exactly? Why is there no official record? It's a very good question. I didn't know that there wasn't an official record until well after my third miscarriage. And I think it was actually through hearing a researcher in this area talk about it, that I learned that there's no national miscarriage rate or kind of no statistics gathered officially. And it is complicated because obviously not all miscarriage rate or kind of no statistics gathered officially and it's it is complicated

because obviously not all miscarriages happen in a hospital not everybody goes to their doctor so it's tricky to gather that data but it's not impossible and actually we don't even do the basics I don't think so not even hospital admissions that kind of thing and actually it means we're just working from guesses, really best guesses of how many happen, which it's a shocking data gap when you think about it. going through this journey with you. And we're also looking at that wider world of what is or isn't happening when it comes to women and miscarriages. And of course, at times, partners that can be very much affected as well.

How did you find how you were treated when you had a miscarriage, whether it was your first or your fourth? And I'm so sorry for those losses. Oh, thank you. No, so there are two parts to this, really. We were lucky in that we were met with, you know, lots of kindness from NHS midwives and nurses and sonographers and doctors. But there was also a kind of resignation, I think you would call it. And I think particularly the first time, that was almost what shocked me most,

was that no one was going to ask any further questions. You know, we were just told, oh, it happens sometimes. It's just one of those things. And often that's kind of wrapped up with well-meaning things like oh it's nothing you did which sort of meant as reassurance but that idea that nobody was going to try to find out why this had happened because really there were um you know from the little that I knew about miscarriage at that point there were no obvious reasons why we'd be any more at risk. You know, I'd only just turned 30. We were both healthy.

Not, you know, none of the risk factors, so to speak, would apply. But actually, there was this just kind of defeatism, really, just a kind of, well, there's nothing that can be done. An acceptance by the medical staff. Yes, and that it is something you try again or whatever it may be but how much investigation did you find is actually done into the reasons well for the first after the first miscarriage nothing um and the assumption is that it won't happen again or that you know it it's random and can't be prevented. And again, it was the same the second time round.

The third time, we were referred for investigations and we were fortunate in that we were seen by a very switched-on doctor who was a specialist in this area as it happened and she said you know she said explained that we could have testing on the the pregnancy to find out whether there was a a chromosomal issue for example and that's kind of the assumption is that I think this is a really prevalent belief is that all miscarriages or almost all miscarriages are down to a sort of random genetic issue that you know means that pregnancy is never going to be viable and therefore could never be prevented but actually that's not really the full story and so I interviewed lots of different researchers for the book and one of the most shocking things I think I learned was that

actually as many as half of miscarriages are not don't have these chromosomal issues and therefore theoretically if we knew more they could be prevented. That is the bit I have to say that stood out for me as well Jenny that half are unknown and also are not being investigated. Yeah, I mean, it runs completely counter to everything I think you are encouraged to believe about miscarriage. Just that there might be things that could be done. These are healthy embryos. And we don't, we don't test we don't I mean, you know, we did have some testing on a couple of our pregnancies. And we did find out one was down to a random

chromosomal issue, but that doesn't happen routinely. I think often people have to ask for it circumstances have to be right. Yeah, it's... Why do you think that is? Because when I was thinking about it, and maybe you mentioned this as well, Jenny, with other areas of medicine, if something is happening and we don't know why,

we expect research. Yeah, we try to find out. There are lots of things. I mean, the thing that I think a kind of common phrase that's used, and this is one of the chapter titles is, you know, that a doesn't seem to I'm a health journalist by my background and I can't really think of another area of medicine where the the attitude is kind of so defeatist really you talk about it being the perfect Venn diagram oh yeah I mean oh you're testing me now I think I can remember the death and periods. Yeah, things that make us uncomfortable. And I think it's true.

We just would rather not think about it. Or some people would prefer not to think about it. As we talk about some of the solutions that eventually, I'm talking, of course, you had your fifth pregnancy. You did receive a treatment which was progesterone, now recommended by many doctors when it comes to recurrent miscarriages. But do you think it's widely enough known? No, I don't think it is. So we had to ask for it in our pregnancy that was before the NICE guidance changed but I think um I think on the ground I think people aren't being proactively offered it actually I was talking

to a friend about this this week um who was bleeding in a pregnancy after a previous miscarriage and um she really struggled to obtain a prescription um from a doctor for progesterone, even though she fitted the kind of, you know, exactly what the NICE guidance says might be the best case that it might help. I think it's running up against, again, that idea that miscarriage can't be prevented. And I think also a nervousness to intervene in pregnancy and to give pregnant women medication. I'm just seeing somebody getting in touch with us that says, thank you so much for speaking up on miscarriage. I had 11 and my children were born via surrogacy in the end. I had my first at 50 and second at 52 in the UK. Well, congratulations on your babies. But talking about pregnancies, people are often holding off announcing their pregnancy until 12 weeks. And the majority of miscarriages do happen before then.

So their grief can be very much hidden if it happens. And a survey by Tommies that, of course, deals so much with miscarriage and pregnancy loss and said that found that two-thirds of women couldn't even talk to their best friend about it. What was your experience? Yeah, so the first time around we told a couple of people and we'd sort of said it in a, you know, oh, it's a little bit early to tell you this,

but I don't think we really thought anything would happen. And so we then did tell, I think you kind of have to then tell those people that you've told you were pregnant that you've had a miscarriage. But it is difficult because in our case, our first miscarriage, well, all of our miscarriages really happened right around the time when a lot of our close circle of friends and family were having, they were pregnant or they just had a baby. And actually, that can be quite a difficult juxtaposition, really, of, you know, how to, I mean, on the one hand, it's painful for you as a person who's just lost a pregnancy or a baby. But it's also, I can see why they would feel awkward or find that conversation very hard. So, yeah, I do think it's difficult. You did have baby Edward, which I want to let our listeners know. Congratulations to you and your partner on that. But in our last minute, Jenny, what would you like to see change?

I think it's an attitude shift, really. I mean, you know know as well as basic covering the basic data on this so that we can you know researchers can use that to work with I think it's we need a basic level of curiosity I mean what else might we discover from learning more about miscarriage and why it happens. And I think that, yeah, we could learn all kinds of things about our health as well as how to prevent more pregnancy loss, which so many people go through. So lovely to have you in. Thank you for having me.

Jenny, our book is Life Almost and that will be published tomorrow. And if you are affected by anything we've discussed, you can find links to organisations on our website. I want to thank you all for getting in touch today so many comments coming in both on all the topics that we have done today. Tomorrow Anita will be

with you and we'll be looking at among other things audio porn so nothing if not variety right here on Woman's Hour. I'll be back with you again of course next Monday. Do keep your comments coming in and we'll keep watching them. Goodbye. That's all for today's Woman's Hour.

Join us again next time. Hello there, I'm Simon Armitage and I've just walked into my garden shed with a chair in my hand. It's my writing shed and the chair is for my guests for this series of the poet laureate has gone to his shed including Ian McKellen, Pam Ayres, Loyal Karner and Lucy Beaumont so pull up a virtual seat next to me and listen in on my chit chats with the great and good of this world people who've stopped by for a natter and a cup of tea but often end up bearing a little bit of their soul or

spilling the beans, if you'll allow me several good old-fashioned mixed metaphors for a moment. Listen through the keyhole by searching for The Poet Laureate Has Gone to His Shed on BBC Sounds. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy.

And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.