Woman's Hour - Jessie Ware; girls disappearing from care services; women's football and sponsorship

Episode Date: June 16, 2021

The singer-songwriter Jessie Ware was nominated for Female Solo Artist and Album of the Year at this Year’s BRIT Awards. She was also included in Barack Obama’s favourite music playlist of 2020. Jessie has been busy in lockdown recording new songs for the deluxe Platinum Pleasure edition of her hit album What's Your Pleasure? In tandem with her music career, her family’s passion for food led to her weekly podcast Table Manners with her mother Lennie, and she has just released her second book - Omelette - a loving gaze of life through eating and food. She joins Emma to discuss some of her favourite food memories from white bread and spaghetti Bolognese to chopped and fried fish – and omelettes.A few weeks ago the Times newspaper published the results of an investigation which said that the Police and social services were failing thousands of girls as young as 11 who had been repeatedly reported missing while at risk of sexual abuse. One child in West Yorkshire had ‘disappeared’ 197 times in three years. We speak to Kelly, who was one of those regularly disappearing from the children’s homes she lived in in the 1990’s, about the impact the lack of intervention at the time has had on her life. Now volunteering as an ambassador for the Maggie Oliver Foundation, supporting other young women who have had similar life experiences, she concurs with the Times research believing these vulnerable young people are continuing to be let down. As a campaigner in this area for many years, Maggie Oliver explains what she thinks needs to happen going forward to stop the continued abuse and exploitation. They are joined by Charlotte Ramsden, President of the Association of Children's Services.Women football fans of Norwich City have persuaded their club to drop sexist and degrading images attached to a sponsorship deal, despite it being very lucrative. Norwich City has got rid of a sponsorship worth £5 million. The content that was considered offensive was on the Youtube and Instagram sites of an Asian online gambling company called BK8. Eddie Mullan is a big fan of Norwich City, so much so she makes banners for the matches with a group called Along Comes Norwich and Simon Stone is the BBC Sport reporter. Gemma Barnett has won the spoken word category of the new Poetry for Good competition, the UK’s first nationwide poetry awards launched in celebration of key workers for her poem The Front Desk. Gemma is an actor but as theatres began to close last year with COVID she realised she needed to get another job – finding work as a GP’s receptionist. She wrote this poem in admiration of the female team who worked there. Emma hears about Gemma’s experiences and hears her poem.

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Emma Barnett and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. A creative challenge for you today. I'm going to be talking to the actor turned GP receptionist Gemma Barnett, no relation, excellent name though, about winning a prize for the poem she wrote for the mostly female team she spent the pandemic working with, fielding calls from those who need to see a doctor. She wrote the poem to put into words her admiration for her fellow receptionists.

And today what I want to ask you is would you like to write a short poem, perhaps even a haiku, a ditty about someone in your life or a group of people who deserve the spotlight and some thanks, especially after 15 months we've just had and the months we've got to go i would love to hear them who do you want to thank and what do you want to say you can text your short poems to women's hour on 84844 text will be charged at your standard message rate social media we're over at bbc women's hour or email us your creations through our website.

I'm really looking forward to reading them, and I know there'll be some very interesting ones coming in, and also who you want to thank will be catching my eye as well. Gemma will be joining us a bit later in the programme and reciting her award-winning poem to go alongside yours. We're also on today's programme going to hear about fan power in football and how Norwich City Football Club have had to terminate a £5 million sponsorship deal because of sexism.

And last month, we discussed the story of how thousands of at-risk girls go missing every year. Today, I'm going to talk to one of those missing girls and one of the women in charge of making sure it doesn't happen. But the point is, it still does. But first, food and lots of it. My first guest today adores her grub and her music. The singer-songwriter Jessie Ware was nominated for Female Solo Artist and Album of the Year at this year's Brit Awards. She was also included in Barack Obama's favourite music playlist of 2020 and has been busy during lockdown recording new tracks for her hit album What's Your Pleasure but it is her love of food which has led to her popular podcast Table Manners with her mother Lenny and a host of celebrity guests from Ed Sheeran through to Kylie that has driven her to write

her first solo book. It's called Omelette and it tells the story of her life through her favourite food memories with friends and family from white bread to chopped and fried fish the jewish mainstay jesse where good morning morning emma thanks for joining us today let's start with the title it's called omelette you say eggs remind you of your mother's love tell us more well it's a funny thing when you write a book and you don't really know where you're starting i just threw things at the paper um or my laptop screen and and um and I found this well my publisher found this thread that all the egg stories that there is a whole chapter on eggs are all about a kind of celebration of a mother's love now my mum's omelette is this omelette that

was she is it's her offering of um in a time of crisis that's what she offers instead of a cup of tea it's an omelette so it's where it's just kind of this this thing that she offers and my brother constantly rejects but i quite like and i just um i guess it kind of represented the book in the kind of chaos breaking eggs cracking eggs making a mess um and the uh growing up in london with a wonderful mother and uh and making and eating a lot and talking and fighting over the dinner table and all those kind of important moments that happen at the dinner table.

Crucial question, though. Are we talking with cheese? Well, yeah, obviously. I feel I never trust a person who doesn't add a bit of cheese. I'm not judging. A lot of cheese. A lot. A good omelette in my book needs a lot of cheese and quite a bit of cheese. I'm not judging. A lot of cheese. A lot. A good omelette in my book needs a lot of cheese and quite a bit of seasoning as well.

But I do love the way you start the book. You say you were so greedy when you entered this earth. You made your mum's nipples bleed. That's certainly one to open the eye when you begin. Yeah, I know. I kind of feel like maybe everything has just unedited now because I've had this podcast. I feel like I can say anything.

It's true. I was very greedy. I liked my food as soon as I came out of my mum and my poor grandfather had to go and utter the words nipple guards or shields to the pharmacy. You know, proud Jewish man who had never said that word. And yes, and the rest is history. And then my greed continued.

Well, the way that food, though, does give us memories and lead us to think about certain things is very powerful. And I know with your podcast, you've been looking at that with lots of different people. One of the dishes in here is spaghetti bolognese. And I particularly like how you talked about the sort of the ritual of cooking that and what that's meant, because I know some of the men in your life are particularly fond of a ritual around that. Yeah, I think everyone says that their spag bol or somebody that they know's spag bol is the best. And when we had Michael McIntyre on the podcast,

he said for his last supper, he would have a homemade spag bol and it totally made sense because it's never as good in a restaurant. Please tell me if there is the best spag bol out there in London, let me know. But I think it's my father-in-law's or elsewhere I mean you know oh sorry of course absolutely actually my favorite one's in Greece but um there you go but yes so um so uh Pete makes this bag bowl and it's this ritual of watching I mean my I'm a bit of control

freak in the kitchen and I kind of do most of the cooking and my husband quite enjoys that and eating it. But he will not let me near his spaghetti bolognese, which he inherited through watching his father. And it used to be this kind of big ceremony where, you know, he'd put his jazz music on, he'd have his glass or two of wine and it was delicious. And it was his he was very proud of it. uh and i've let my husband i've let he does a better spaghetti bolognese than me um but um i love watching him uh doing this ritual turning the jazz music on it's so by the book it's almost like he's he's kind of following a recipe again but in his mind and going back to his childhood of remembering his dad making it and the yeah the recipe almost of how you cook something

almost as important as what you put into it. But then I was thinking about this last night, finishing up your book, and there's part of me, and I'm sure I'm not alone in this, you know, he doesn't want to look at another pan for a very long time after the year that we've just gone through, year now more, and I know we can go back out again. And obviously it was always cooking before, you know,

most of us were, but it's been, it's's also I wonder if lockdown has taken away any of that pleasure for fit of food for you because you haven't been able to go out and experiment and eat out well I think that there's been so um so many amazing DIY boxes you know the hospitality service is like done so amazingly to try and make things work and I've had loads of fun with that I don't have a kitchen at the moment so I feel like I'm constantly camping so I have like a plug-in induction hob which only one works and then we have this mini oven so I'm sick of cooking um but I will have a kitchen soon so that is probably more that's annoyed me rather than the lockdown actually I got quite excited because I've been living with my mum before lockdown hit and we moved out um to make sure she was all right and she doesn't let me in

the kitchen she doesn't even though she berates me that she has to cook all the meals for the guests and table runners she doesn't let me near the kitchen so when I got you know locked down at the beginning I was making kind of three course meals every every stage of the day it was kind of how I looked forward to these weird days that had no routine. But yeah, that has, I mean, after a year and a half, I'm like, yes, that has kind of stopped. It's slightly dimmed. But there are stories going back in time as well here. And you talk about your grandmother in the book, who sounds like an amazing woman. And almost you could smell what she'd cooked before you arrived to go and see her in Manchester.

Yeah, she lived in Manchester and she lived in a flat. And we'd go and we'd get, you know, you'd get the grey blanket of Manchester that I absolutely love. And you'd drive and you'd go and you'd know exactly what you were having because you'd get the whiff of chopped and fried fish coming out the window in a queen way from my grandma just saying, hiya, come up. And then you just kind of, it was so wonderful. And it's one of my favourite scents, that walking up those kind of echoey, that hallway and those stairs. And then just having a big bit of chopped and fried in a cup of tea from my grandma. I mean, the best bit about chopped and fried fish, having also had a fair bit of it in my life is that if you haven't made it because as you put in your book you do need to wear some kind of shower cap if you don't want to smell of it for the rest of time it lingers absolutely it's better when somebody else makes it absolutely she did sound like an

amazing woman though you know and some of the detail that you gave in the book about her and and was it sugar on her salad yeah she was uh yeah she she she she lived to 93 and she was wonderful kind of the when she started having mini strokes the doctor started saying listen i think maybe you should stop driving and maybe you should um cut down on full fat milk because of your cholesterol and she just said it tastes like we um non-fat um milk And she put sugar on her salad and a whiskey was always medicinal in front of countdown and a packet of salt and vinegar crisps. And then when hummus came into the picture,

I don't know, in the 90s for my grandma, it was just the best thing that she'd ever experienced. Salt and vinegar, countdown, hummus chip. Game changing. I know it's funny how you can remember those things coming in for yourself as well. And I mean, I'm also very struck. There's a lot of happiness. There's a lot of joy in here. But food also can bring back painful memories or harder memories. And on the last page of the book, you talk about omelettes and your dad. And you brought up a story there that before he left, he asked to make an omelette. And that's

how you end the book. Yeah, my mum's gonna love that you brought that a story there that before he left, he asked to make an omelette. And that's how you end the book. Yeah. My mum's going to love that you brought that one up, Emma. Well, it's right at the end. I know, I know. And it's there in the book. And it's my own fault. No, it was just a situation where my parents were breaking up. And before my dad left, he asked if he could make a moment and my mom said yes and then he asked to take the whisk and she drew the line at that well that's

why i think it's such a powerful you know because there's a lot there's also those moments which certain things will always bring back a moment or a taste of something that is that is hard and there was a kind of almost a full circle element of you bringing that up, which is why I think people can relate to that. Yeah, absolutely. And look, I celebrate, it's for my mum, this book, and it's to celebrate how amazing, what an amazing job she did bringing up all three of us. So, you know, I felt like it was fitting

to kind of leave that at the end, but yeah. Yeah, well, it's very powerful, those memories. And the other thing that is incredibly powerful alongside food to bring back memories is music. And I wonder how you felt with getting on to what is, I can say, your day job, if I may, when you're not writing about food. You're a brilliant creator, creative of music and also of songwriting. And the former president, Barack Obama, as I mentioned, did choose one of your tracks for his favourite music playlist of 2020. How did you feel when you heard that? You don't always know who's listening.

It was amazing. And I do want to thank his daughter for that, because I think maybe she led him to me. So it was phenomenal. It was bizarre. It was that miserable time. You know, I I mean New Year's Eve is miserable as it is but I think I found out like the day before New Year's Eve nobody was

doing anything obviously we were all stuck indoors and then I got these messages and it was it was very lovely and we've been trying to track him down to be on the podcast ever since because now he potentially knows my name or just the song but I'll take it but yeah you've got to use what you've got to use well let's hear uh remember where Well, let's hear Remember Where You Are, which is what he put on there. And also a bit of your new single, Please. But nothing is different in my arms So darling, remember, remember Where you've been

I can't help it when the vision is Cause I wanna be next to you Now I gotta be next to you I'm a little superstitious Cause I wanna be next to you Cause I wanna be next to you I gotta be next to you So please Jessie there, ending with your latest single Please

It's lovely to hear some music And the tracks on the album, a bit more dancey Than some of the previous ballads Was that a conscious decision? The sort of summer vibe, antidote to lockdown? Yeah, I felt like, yeah We were nearly getting out of lockdown And very rightly, you know,

we're going to have to wait a bit. But yes, that optimism of people being able to touch and kiss and flirt again, those kind of 3, 4am songs where you're still going, that was absolutely it. I'm living vicariously through my music and my fans because I shan't be doing that.

At 3 to 4am.m I'll probably be doing a night feed well we should say you're you're pretty pregnant right now and you're are you bouncing on a ball yeah so I was thinking I'm looking at you on zoom here and we're not together in the studio I'm so rarely with anyone at the moment but I'm I was thinking is she dancing or is she imagine if I was dancing to my own music no I. And also to my book. No, I'm about to want to bring people. I'd love it if you were, because I was looking at you. Yeah, no, it's a pregnancy ball. Just, you know, to get the baby in the optimal position, all that jazz.

I don't know if it ever works, but yeah. How long have you got? This is your third. It's my third. I don't know. My baby's always overdue, so I reckon I've got about five weeks. Five weeks. Well, all the best for that. I know spaghetti bolognese or ragout was quite important the last time around.

Absolutely. Yeah, it kick-started that birth. I was in competition with my best mate who had the baby two weeks. I was so overdue. And she started her labour with a really slow-cooked spaghetti bolognese. So I got one on the go and Bob's your uncle. The baby appeared that evening. Well, I love that you're very strict, you and your mum, in the book about if we've cooked something for you, don't be late.

That's why the chicken will be dry. So that's the only meal, one of the only meals that you can really let simmer and the baby can be a bit late and it might actually improve. Jessie, lovely to talk to you. Thank you so much for coming on. The book's called Food, Love, Chaos and Other Conversations, Omelette by Jessie Ware there, who's bouncing away and good to have her on the programme. Your poems are coming in, which I'll come to in just a moment. But something else I wanted to ask for your help with. As you've been hearing in the news, Covid vaccinations are to become compulsory for staff in care homes for older people in England. That's what the BBC has been told.

Care staff are expected to be given 16 weeks to have the jab or face being redeployed away from frontline care or losing their jobs. The move is expected to be announced by the government in the next few days. Now, the majority of care workers are women. And those working in the sector say there are a variety of reasons staff have cited, including cultural reasons and concerns about safety that they haven't had the jab yet. But care organisations have warned that compulsory vaccinations could cause significant difficulties in a sector that already struggles to recruit enough people.

The government, however, is believed to have considerable concerns about low take-up of the vaccine in some areas, including London. But is this the best way to deal with it? Should care home workers be persuaded rather than forced? And given the sector has a recruitment crisis, could this make the situation worse? If you work in this field, if you're someone who's having doubts yourself, if you're hesitant for some reason, if you're someone who works alongside those and wishes that they were, your colleagues were all vaccinated. If you're a care home owner, if you're a care home recipient

or if your family members are in receipt of it, can you get in touch with us with your views and your experiences, please? Text Women's Hour on 84844 or on social media. We're at BBC Women's Hour. We do want to hear from you and have this discussion,

but we do need your help or it would be very beneficial to hear your experiences. So please do use our contact details to get in touch. But what do you do if you're an actor and all the theatres start to close in lockdown, as happened? Well, if you're Gemma Barnett, again, I'll just stress this, no relation, you search for another job, as many others have done so too. She found work as a GP's receptionist in Tottenham. And it was while she was there that she was inspired to write a poem called The Front Desk about the largely female staff she found

herself working with. It has just won Poetry for Good, the competition at the UK's first nationwide poetry awards launched in celebration of key workers and Gemma joins me now. Good morning. Morning, thanks so much for having me. Yes, I'm sorry. I have to keep stressing we're not related, but our names do sound extremely similar, bar one letter. What was it like working as a GB surgery during lockdown? Well, I started at the surgery in January, so I haven't done the whole pandemic. And my actual cycle to work goes through a huge cemetery. So I guess I was just thinking about death and illness a lot. That sounds all very bleak and actually the surgery that I work in

has such a community feel to it. A lot of the receptionists and the staff and the doctors know patients very well. I was so surprised when I got there by how many people were known by their first name and just the relationships between the staff and the community. So it's as stressful a job as it is. And the surge in kind of patient demand has been huge throughout the pandemic. And you are meeting a lot of aggression all the time.

I was going to say that there's great camaraderie, I imagine, behind the desk. And you certainly get that from what you've written and what I've read. But at the same time, what you're fielding and dealing with isn't always the most pleasant, to say the least. No, not at all. I mean, because everything starts with a telephone consultation. A lot of the time you are met with someone who's been on hold for half an hour, if not more, and then has maybe failed to get through. So they've come to the surgery and they've arrived at the desk in that state. So a lot of the time you are meeting people in like very stressed sort of brain space and very aggressive as well. Some of my staff, like my colleagues have faced racial verbal abuse and sexist abuse, been called thick,

like it can get a lot. But at the same time, there's a part of me that's like, well, when your living condition is dire and there's no support for mental illness what can we expect so there's an understanding at the same time as just trying to deal with it and be recognized I suppose as someone at work yourself trying to do the best you can can I ask you to read the front desk for us your poem I know that you have kindly agreed to do so so why don't you why don't you take it away Sakiya and Dorena are on the front desk and the phones don't rest just like the women won't until lunch sakia's got a hunch that the 8 30 patient won't show so she points to the screen arena see this check the notes see what the doctor wrote mum is vulnerable babe on child protection call

her right now god this man he should be sectioned threatening for days to do the very worst calling hundreds of times a week she's got to see the nurse christ he's even seeking out the babysitter we've got to get her in here the two women peer at the date of birth the 1st of january 2021 the baby's eight weeks old the mother's only son arena dials in her number and hello is this miss brown hi lovely now i'm calling from Springfield Gardens regarding your appointment soon. We have room to change it if you need. Just thought we'd see what works for you. Oh, you knew it was this morning. You didn't need the warning.

Great. Yeah, that's perfect. 8.30. We'll see you then. Irena gives Sakia a thumbs up as she hangs up the phone. See, these women are not known for diagnoses or curing disease, but they see a lot and have hearts so big there's a spot for pretty much anyone and everyone in there behind the desks the emails the keyboards

and the calls are receptionists who care hello Springfield Gardens Irena speaking how can I help they felt through the language of medicine and no two others too Irena's Lithuanian was new to the UK within a few, she became fluent in English medical practice, typing words you've never heard of, like candesartan, ibisartan, enalapril, isinapril, propranolol. Holidays are a luxury. Suddenly, he walks through the surgery doors, the postman, and in his hands, the main doctor Safia is interested in, her doctor Martins. Deliveries come here, you see, she hasn't left the building for seven days consecutively. Hours stretch and the pay is small, but the right footwear makes

her feel tall and chic, given days are so long and quite often they're bleak. In these places where death and illness can hang in the air, people preparing for uncomfortable conversations, difficult deliberations, there is a body of staff who, for half the prestige and wages, sort through millions upon millions of pages of administration containing information leading to operations, scans, medication plans, and more. All for our collective health, irrespective of their personal wealth. Mr Wilson walks back up to the desk with his little girl.

He says, we've got to give this urine sample thing a whirl. Fola doesn't want to. She said she hasn't had a drink. Is there any way at all we can have some water, do you think? Zakia runs up to the staff room, fills a mug right to the brim, hands it to the little girl with a huge grin. See, behind the desks, the emails, the keyboards and the calls are these workers you don't hear about looking after us all there you go thank you very much for that and beautifully recited of course as an actor I would hope for nothing less but I do really appreciate you agreeing to read it as well what have they said about it um they're so lovely I think they're they're really moved um actually

because I feel like they've worked throughout the whole pandemic and some of them have ended up in ICU. Some of them have lost family members. And I don't feel like they've been acknowledged for the incredible work that they do. And I watch these women work so hard every single day um so it's been really lush to create a positive narrative around receptionists because I do feel like there's there's a lot of negativity around the the job role so um yeah it's lovely and all the doctors bought me a bunch of flowers so I am very lucky to have this job well I know you still sometimes dipping into it but you're also getting back to the acting yes I'm uh I'm currently in a wine and cheese cafe across the road from where I'm rehearsing um good which is why you can hear yeah I was gonna say I'm happy that a wine and cheese cafe is already open at this hour no I spoke to the owner he's lovely I was like do you mind if I do

an interview in here um yeah and I'm rehearsing for it's just it's a five five day job. We're developing a new script, which is a really beautiful script and a lovely cast and team. So, well, yeah. Thank you very much for taking the time out for finding a wine and cheese place to have a talk to us. And, you know, casually recite some poetry that you've just won a prize for. You've inspired the listeners of Women's Hour who've been getting in touch with their poems for who they're grateful to. So I'd want to share some of those. But thank you to you, Gemma Barnett. Thank you so much for having me. Lovely to hear that and lovely to talk to you and to hear, you know, giving a shout out to those receptionists, which I think is very important.

Here's a poem for you. Those long days of homeschool, the fights about your rights, the long walks and talks, the feelings that rose and burst late at night and were bottled away in the morning, the desire to see your friends, the Zoom calls that seemed to never end. Every day was a triumph, even when it was tough. You, all three, are my heroes, my kids. A message there. No name on that one. Jane, but very powerful. Jane said something here about her mother jane says my mother i wear my mother like a cloak my hand in hers we steal along happy in each other's presence her hand on my throat eases the pain and she says don't cry darling don't cry another one here from tamsin thank you to my golden puppy to us you are so dear amid covid rules and lockdowns your spirit has given

us much cheer haiku for wayne another one here through lockdown side by side you bravely stood strong when i loudly cried with your arms open wide i love you wayne from jackie with a kiss there and i wrote this for my daughter says Stella, who's an early childhood practitioner, has worked all through lockdown. My daughter, Claire, is always there. She loves the babies in her care. And all through Covid, she has never, ever shirked. But the daily she has worked. The day nursery that employs her appreciates the winning hands that without fail calms and soothes the tears, the bumps and bruises that make childhood that special time. Thank you very much for those. Absolutely wonderful. Keep them coming in.

And you've been keeping them quite short as well, so I can get through a few at a time. But the poems for those in your life that you appreciate and perhaps do really need appreciating out loud in such a creative way. Now, last month, the Times newspaper published the results of an investigation which said that the police and social services were failing thousands of girls as young as 11 who'd been reported missing and repeatedly reported so while at risk of sexual abuse.

One child in West Yorkshire had, quote, disappeared 197 times in three years. Who are these children and how do they disappear? We decided to try and find out. Kelly was one of those regularly disappearing from the children's home she lived in in the 90s. Five years ago she decided to give up drugs and alcohol and talk about the abuse she experienced for so many years as a child. She now works as a caregiver and an ambassador for the Maggie Oliver Foundation supporting other young women who've had similar life experiences and concurs with the Times investigation, believing these vulnerable young people are continuing to be let down. Kelly first went into care when she was 11 years old because she was being abused and neglected by her stepfather and abused sexually and by her mother physically. Social services had already been aware of her for several years before.

After she complained to social services about what was going on in her first children's home, she was moved to a second home where she started to run away and be absent for long periods of time. I was absconding six months at a time. Six months? Six months at a time. I was 13. I was on a care order. I was able to do whatever I wanted. You know, the services at that time wasn't bothered. Where I was staying, I was being

groomed. There was drugs there and there was guns there. Where were you going? I was going to some bedsits. I went to some flats. I actually had my own property when I was 14. I was claiming housing benefit when I was 14. How do you do that? I got hold of ID. Right. These people that was supposedly helping me and looking after me,

they got hold of ID for me and everything, you know, so I was able to claim. I was able to claim housing benefit and income support when I was 14. When you say these people, who are you talking about? These people where I was staying. I was staying at bedsits and I was staying at these people's flats. They was a lot older. I was 13 and 14 and very vulnerable.

I didn't realise that these people wasn't my friends. You know, these people always wanted something from me. Like what? Sex, control, power. They made out that they was looking after me. They wasn't looking after me at all so you were 13 and 14 yes staying with strangers yes and did you think you were in a relationship with any of these people yes and how old were the the men that you're talking about

one of them was 19 and then he introduced me to this couple. They was in the 40s. They actually moved to Blackpool eventually. And when I actually went back to a children's home, they were sending me money to the children's home. They wanted me to go to Blackpool. To do what? He says he was going to look after me.

I was going to be their daughter. And that wasn't the intention at all the intention was grooming I mean that's a word you now know because you understand what that means but I presume at the time did you believe that these were friendships and real relationships

at the time I did because you're so young you were so vulnerable when the police actually found me six months later but they only found me because a member of public had seen me going to these bedsits all these days and was like how come services are allowing this and that's the only time when the police and social worker turned up. I'd been missing six months. I was on a care order. And did that member of staff, what did they do?

Did they try and get you back to the home? Yeah, and then they gave me some bus fare. And they says, come back each day, have something to eat, have your medication, and we'll give you your bus fare and you can go back even though he was aware that the police had found guns and drugs and alcohol so sorry they were saying come to the care home get fed yeah be looked after in some way and then go back to where you were staying yes yes so that's exactly what I did because I wasn't getting any sort of care or nurture or love or anything at these children's

homes you know I didn't have any structure at all so Kelly actually felt safer staying with strangers in bedsits than it did being in your children's home. Yeah. And did you believe that you were in a relationship with any of these individuals? Did you call any of them your boyfriend? Yes. One of them I did, yes. Tell us about that. Well, I bumped into him when I'd been missing a few weeks

and I bumped into him at the bus station. And he says, come with me, I'll look after you. And that's what they do. I'll look after you. And we goes to his bed set. And his friends stayed there. Got him some clothes, you know, got him some beer. Made me feel special.

Gave me that little bit of attention. Didn't give me nurture or love, but he gave me that little bit of attention and then I was his. And did he know how old you really were? Yes. So did his family. I met some of his family. His family knew that I was only 13. Were you with just him or was he trying to pass you around, as we have also heard from other survivors? He tried passing me around. We went and met some friends of his and they was married and they was just up the road at a flat

and they wanted me to move into theirs. You know, so once he'd had enough, they was going to have me and so on. And that's how that works. And when you met his family, for instance, did they not find this odd, scary, wrong in any way? They welcomed me. I met his auntie. I met his cousins.. I met his cousins.

I even met his parents. And they didn't say anything. And he was 21 and you were 13? Yes. And you were having a full sexual relationship? Yes. Would you consider that abuse? Yes.

I do now, yes. Back then, what the authorities should have done, they arrested him because of the guns and the drugs, but they didn't arrest him even though he was having sex with me. And do you think that's because, as you were just starting to say there... And that was their responsibility. I was still a child. I was going to say, do you think that's because still, in some way, you were being blamed or just being overlooked? It was being failed constantly. When I was 15, I started having nightmares. And, you know, I had nightmares from what my stepfather had done to me

and from the amount of people that had abused me. And I felt dirty. You know, I didn't feel worthy at all. I felt dirty. I'd constantly be scrubbing myself. You know, I wasn't like normal children. I was constantly in fear. And this carried on through quite a lot of my adult life as well. I didn't have a childhood at all.

My childhood was taken from me. By the system and by these individuals? Yes. Because when we've heard that children have gone missing for weeks for months exactly like you did people who have not people return well i was going to say did you see this with other people as well in the system when you were going through it or are you so alone yes and some of them you know some of them brought the law on purpose. They felt safer at prison. Than in a children's home or in a bedsit?

Yes, yes. My goodness. One of my friends actually committed suicide. I was 12, 13, he was 15. And he committed suicide because we wasn't being helped. And so many children and women and survivors still aren't being helped today you know instead of giving them nurture and care and listening to them you know they throw medication at them or they'd section them or they'd arrest them. We are not the criminals. When you say they, in this instance, are you talking about the care system? I'm talking about the system. The whole system? Yes.

And people have changed, yeah, but the system hasn't. What do you mean by that? So there's so many people on their own, you know, crying out for help. When I finally reported the abuse five years ago, I was laughed at. So I went to the Truth Project and it's only because the Truth Project nudged the police that the police finally contacted me. This is a year after I'd reported the abuse any survivor or any young person if you do listen to this please come forward please come to the foundation you know I'm actually living now I'm not in fear anymore how old are you now? I'm 40. And when do you think you got to a point where you started to live and not feel that fear every day? Only four years ago. Really? Yes. And what was it that

changed? I worked on me. I went to recovery and I went to the foundation. To the McGillivray Foundation. And I worked on me, yes. I had to look at my triggers, what had happened to me. You know, I stopped blaming myself. Once I'd worked on me and realising what had actually happened to me. We've got some wonderful team members at the foundation you know once they'd actually listened to me and hadn't judged me or analyzed me and when I got to position at the

foundation I cried and I cried happy tears you know because all these people have had faith in me but I didn't have that faith in myself because I'd been judged and labelled and spoke down to it and I hadn't had any of that nurture or care or anything. I had to break the cycle. Well, I didn't have to but I broke the cycle of abuse as well as the cycle of addiction. Yes, I know that's been a big part of your adult life since. Yes. Can I just ask then, the reason that we're talking

is because of this report in the Times newspaper a few weeks ago. They've done an investigation which showed that the police and social services are failing thousands of girls as young as 11 who've been repeatedly reported missing and at risk of sexual abuse. I mean, one child in West Yorkshire had disappeared 197 times. That doesn't surprise me. Not at all? That doesn't surprise me at all. Why not? Because it's so easy. Some of these children aren't even aware of what proper love and care is because they haven't received any. You you know when they go to a children's home they've come from a broken background so you want to run away from some of the children's homes

still you think if you're in one because it doesn't have those well they're not getting any nurture they're not getting any care and what might be sat in office most of the time you know i would work with them one-to-one ask them what their likes and interests are, you know, encourage them to go to school. But if they're wanting to, you know, to say they might like skateboarding or something, say we'll go to school. We will go skateboarding twice a week as well. So you're talking about the young people engage them and what's your view you know on what we do about these people in society like your so-called boyfriend at 21 who you now view in a different way who are looking for these vulnerable young people who fall between the cracks what what should we do about them and who are they they need arresting they need arresting you know

there's people abusing the likes of myself and other women and other young people some of them get arrested but they get bail the shoplifters that have been getting remanded what sort of message is that and as well some of these perpetrators have been arrested before because of the same crime why on earth are they not remanding them? Do you think it's got any better since a few years ago with what came out? No. You've no faith in that improvement? No, because why are children still going missing?

Why are survivors still scared of the system? Kelly talking to us, who, just just to say she did mention something called The Truth Project there, which offers victims and survivors of child sexual abuse the chance to share their experiences. But she also mentioned the Maggie Oliver Foundation and I'm now joined by Maggie Oliver, the former detective who's a campaigner for women like Kelly now, who resigned from the Greater Manchester Police in late 2012,

I'm sure many of you remember, in order to expose the now infamous Rochdale grooming scandal. Good morning. Good morning, Emma. How relevant is Kelly's experience today? It's very typical of the young women and men who come to the Maggie Oliver Foundation for help. I mean, Kelly's story is powerful. I feel so very proud of Kelly. It's taken her 30 years to find her voice, and now she's finding her voice. But survivors like Kelly are still

being failed by the systems that are supposed to protect them during their childhoods. And they continue to be failed by the lack of support to help them process all the trauma they're left feeling that they've got nowhere to turn Emma and that's why they come to the foundation where we can help them to begin to piece together um broken lives you know Kelly was third I think she was 11 when she was ripped from her family because she was being neglected and abused. But arguably, she was thrown into a system that failed her even more than her family life has. You know, she clearly talks about having no love, no affection, no care. And, you know, that throws these children into into disarray. And I would say, you know, anybody who is a survivor of childhood sexual abuse who feels lost, that they have nowhere to turn.

Go to the Maggie Oliver Foundation website and get in touch with us because we are offering group therapy sessions now for survivors who have never had anything like that. But why, I'm about to talk to somebody who's got a big part in this as President of the Association of Directors of Children's Services, why hasn't it improved since the whistleblowing? Well, you know, that is the question and I feel it's a really complex situation. I don't necessarily always blame the staff. I mean, they are forbidden, for instance, from giving the children a hug. I mean, I've heard other children saying that the only time they had any physical affection was when they were pinned down. So they would kick off in care just because they were desperate for some love and affection this is what makes them vulnerable to the child abuse to the grooming gangs because a child of 13 needs a hug they need

to feel that they are cared for and they're in a system that much of the time unfortunately doesn't care there's a whole series of staff that come in you know that they're on shifts they go out that there's a very high turnover of staff. Nobody wants to take responsibility. As a police officer, I would regularly go to children's homes where children were being reported missing. And the staff in the homes saw those children as a nuisance. The police officers often saw them as a nuisance and they became like forgotten children. Nobody got a grip. And we heard Kelly say that, you know, these children felt safer in prison. That is a crying shame and it's a real horrendous indictment of our system. It's shocking. And 30 years further on,

after Kelly's experiences, nothing has changed because we see those children at the foundation. Maggie Oliver, I'm going to have to leave it there with you because I'm keen to just bring in Charlotte Ramsden, President of the Association of Directors of Children's Services since April of this year and Director of Children's Services in Salford since 2014. Nobody wants to take responsibility. Charlotte. Hello, and I'm really glad to be here. And I just want to recognise the courage of Kelly in speaking out. I think her story today was incredibly profound, and we owe it to her and

others like her to learn from her experience. I think people do want things to change. And I do believe we have made some progress, but we have made nowhere near enough progress and there is lots more to do. So practice in this area remains variable. Totally recognise that. But there are green shoots of things that work and we need to learn from those green shoots of things that work and have the opportunity to apply them and develop them far more than they've been developed so far. You're responsible for Salford. How many children are missing in the area at the moment? I didn't really come here to talk directly about Salford and I couldn't give you that figure.

It's not a figure I looked up. Apologies. I ask it purely because I'm trying to understand right now, is it safe to say that there are children missing in Salford? Are there always children missing? There are children missing all over the country every day. Absolutely. And they go missing for different reasons. And it's really important that we understand each and every one of them and the reasons why they go missing. So every child in our care system has both a care plan,

but also a risk assessment in order to understand what their vulnerabilities are and how we work with them and as has already been said and as Kelly articulated sometimes those children are in a very traumatized state they don't trust people they find it very hard to relate to people so building strong relationships with them using trauma informed and relationship based practice is the only way that we can help reduce those missing episodes. We need to understand. How does a child, I recognise this isn't your fault per se, but you are director of children's services, president of the association of directors. How does a child go missing 197 times in three years when we're giving millions to fund children's services? Children's services, yes, gets a lot of money. Unfortunately, it's significantly underfunded. And you will know that resources for children's

services have been cut over the last 10 years during the period of austerity. Okay, but it was happening 10 years ago. Sorry, just let me finish. Where those resources have been cut the most is in the early help and prevention parts of our system, which means the pressures in terms of spend on the acute part of the system are growing. But the reality is we need to invest more in the prevention and early health approaches that really work. And where that has happened, we have got examples of where we are having success with those children. But it is not widespread enough yet, which is why it's so important that we learn from those things in order to develop them on a national basis. But prior to those cuts, this was still happening.

That's the point. It's not about more money. It's about your system being broken. It's about a multi-agency system that is constantly grappling to understand both the needs of children and also the changes. So the complexity of what's happening gets ever more challenging. So the interrelationship between child sexual exploitation, criminal exploitation, organised gang work has got increasingly complex and increasingly difficult.

And our Safeguarding Pressures report, which came out in February of this year, highlighted that, yes, sexual exploitation has increased again. And obviously that's deeply concerning for all of us. But I still don't understand. If you're in charge of a children's home, for instance, is in charge of a child, why is it very easy, as Kelly put it still now, because she's involved in caregiving, for that child to abscond and go missing? And in one case, as the Times found, 197 times. So I think it's fair to say that care homes are really struggling with delivering their

responsibilities in this space. We recognise that the needs of those children are very complex, and there are lots and lots of homes who really struggle to manage those complex needs. So our placement system, our care home system, is not delivering the kind of care that we need for the children who have this level of complexity. That's something that's being examined really closely at the moment in the Children's Social Care Review, because we recognise the complexities there are. We recognise the increased complexity caused by online grooming. You heard Kelly talk about how she really believed that those relationships mattered. And so we need to be able to counteract that. We need to understand how to do that, which is where the research and the learning, the understanding, the risk profiles that we're

battling against are really important. But within that, we need care homes who are able to deliver the kind of complex support and care with multi-agency wraparound support in order to break this cycle. If I have a complex child who needs a placement, I can do 200 searches nationally and find nowhere who is able to take that young person. that is because their needs are complex because the regulation system that we have for care homes means that the standards that they have to meet obviously mean that they need to try and prevent young people going missing that's incredibly difficult to do we can't force children we can't constrain children to stay we have to work on the relationships with them to empower them to make safe choices and to wrap around them and support them when they're unable to do that. Are carers allowed to hug children? They are. Now that's been a really sensitive and

really difficult issue because obviously workers are very scared of false allegations and so there is currently a real risk that workers aren't offering enough physical care and affection. There is a lot of guidance out there about doing that on young people's terms. We want to encourage far more natural relationships. That's an area where there's anxiety in the system. And again, that's something that we're working through currently to talk about how do we do that in a way that's safe for workers as well as meeting young people. Perhaps we will, I hope we will talk again as things develop. Charlotte Rumsden, thank you to you, President of the Association of Directors of Children's Services and Director of Children's Services in Salford. Now I told you we were going to talk about fan power, final discussion today.

Female and male fans of Norwich City Football Club have successfully pressured the club into dropping a lucrative sponsorship deal because of sexist images attached to the company being advertised. That deal was worth £5 million. Using the hashtag HerGame2, fans said the soft porn connotations of the offensive content shared on the social media accounts of BK8, an Asian online gambling company, were at odds with the club's principles. Well, what happened in Norwich FC flags up just how scrutinised football is becoming, more so than in the past and there are now concerns about sponsorship deals that other clubs have signed. Edie

Mullen is a big fan of Norwich City and belongs to the official fan group called Along Come Norwich and Simon Stone is a BBC Sport football reporter. Welcome to you both. Edie, just tell us what was wrong with these images first of all or what was wrong with the deal? Just to mention there is an official fan, there's the Barclay End fan, just to get really specific and boring. Along come Norwich is a bit more DIY, but very influential and does a lot of great work.

And what was the issue then? So the issue, it's not like Norwich hasn't had betting sponsors before um and it's not like people haven't sporadically raised these issues um before because a lot of betting companies use quite exploitative imagery in their advertising but this particular company was inexplicable as a choice um so uh it was monday the 7th that norwich announced that a huge betting firm was going to be this season's sponsor. And within minutes, supporters had checked out the official social media feeds of this sponsor. And what was actually found was astonishing it was an entire Instagram grid of more or less the same image which was incredibly young girls and I say girls they looked very very young yes wearing very skimpy

vests very short denim cutoffs kneeling on a bed with legs spread and every single vest had the logo of of this company. And some of the girls were pulling at their vest straps with their mouth. Some were actually pulling down their top to reveal a full bra. It was a really odd grid to look at on an Instagram thing because it was centered, the cropping was centered on the logo, which was in fact on the women's breasts. So it was an overwhelming kind of vision. And I don't think anyone was really ready to encounter that.

So there was a massive wave of protest and not just from women, from men and women. And a very tiny, tiny majority couldn't see a problem with it. Well, Norwich did apologise. BKH apologised. They've removed all the material. So there's been a quick response here and the one that you were looking for. Simon Stone, is this a pattern of things to come? I think it is, Emma, yes, because I think that more and more people now are scrutinising, especially sponsorship deals. We live in an era where over the last two days, Cristiano Ronaldo and Paul Pogba during the European Championships have sat

at press conference tables and removed objects that they find personally offensive. And I think, as I say, the more and more people are scrutinizing the sponsorship deals that clubs and associations do and as he pointed out it wasn't hard to find the issue with this particular sponsorship deal and you just assume that someone at Norwich has not paid enough attention to the to the company that they were dealing with, have not done their due diligence in the way that clearly the fans have in this instance

and continue to do in a wider sphere. For instance, you were talking about Ronaldo there removing Coke bottles from his press conference saying water was best, just in case people were wondering what had been removed, and especially in light of what Edie was just describing. And I suppose, Edie, from your perspective, how worrying is it that, you know, as I say, been a full retraction and, you know, many people saying this wouldn't have just happened like this in the past, you know, money talks, clubs have got to make money,

especially after the 15 months that they've had. But how concerned are you that the due diligence wasn't done by someone, Edie? It's a bit crazy because even if you don't look at the actual sexual nature of the content that was put out there, in terms of aligning your brand to a brand, you would assume that you'd check if that brand was worth aligning yourself to. So I can only assume there was a lot of money at stake here and obviously we've just been promoted. We're going to start the new season in the rightful place where we should be.

And perhaps we want a bit of cash flowing. But as a female supporter of the team, one of the questions that always comes into our minds is, are we welcome? Are we actually welcome here? do they tell us we're welcome and we're not or actually is is this a very inclusive um club and I always thought it was inclusive so um when there was a very very long silence I was I think a lot of us were very very worried as to what that silence meant but when we did hear back, really nice accountability taking. They held their hands up. They said it was a catastrophic error.

And so hopefully we can learn lessons from this as a club, but also other clubs can learn lessons because your fans are out there. They're watching. They know what your brand standards are. They know that they form part of that brand. And they will shout if they don't feel that something lines up. Edie, I should say did invite one of your owners on Delia Smith uh she didn't say yes yet we hope she'll come on but it's very good to hear your voice on this so I'm just a quick final word from you we're obviously in football season uh for a lot of people on a much bigger scale looking around the world as well as to their own teams is Is this fans being listened to or is this brands being worried in a different way?

I think it's both. Because I think, as Norwich have pointed out, if there's an issue, it's not an issue for women. It's not an issue for men. It's an issue for everybody. And they are very, very sensitive to this now. Clearly, there's more and more women going to watch matches and that influence

and that financial power is great. So I think in this instance, Norwich, as soon as they realised there was a problem, they knew they had to change it. I don't think it was because they weren't scared of offending women. I think that's the reason why.

We're going to have to leave it there. Thank you to both of you for talking to us. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Thank you so much for your time. Join us again for the reason why. We're going to have to leave it there. Thank you to both of you for talking to us. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Thank you so much for your time. Join us again for the next one. I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies.

I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con

Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story. Settle in. Available now.