Woman's Hour - Jessie Ware, School readiness, Katriona O'Sullivan, Autism support

Episode Date: April 16, 2026

Today is primary school offer day in England and Wales, when parents will be finding out where their children might be starting school in September. A new government-backed campaign has been launched to help parents and carers as figures show that over a third of children are currently starting reception without the basic skills they need for the classroom. Datshiane Navanayagam is joined by BBC Education reporter Kate McGough and Felicity Gillespie from children’s charity Kindred Squared, to talk about what parents and carers need to know.The singer-songwriter Jessie Ware's new album, Superbloom, was released this week. As well as being known for her music, Jessie's family’s passion for food led to the weekly podcast Table Manners, that she co-hosts with her mother Lennie, featuring celebrity guests like Ed Sheeran and Kylie. Jessie joins Datshiane to talk about her new album inspired by disco and funk and how she became more confident in her 40s.Autism Central is an online support service for the parents and carers of autistic people. Set up by NHS England in 2021, it has now been expanded to offer help for everyone in the support network of autistic people, including grandparents, partners, friends, and adult siblings. It’s paid for by NHS England and run by the mental health charity Anna Freud. With growing numbers being diagnosed with autism - and waiting for a diagnosis - what can this type of online help offer? Datshiane is joined by Victoria Jackson who has been using the service, and Dr Georgia Pavlopoulou, Director of Autism Central at Anna Freud.Katriona O’Sullivan’s childhood was marked by extreme poverty, neglect, addiction and abuse. She became pregnant at 15 and experienced homelessness, but went on to become an award‑winning academic and bestselling author, with her memoir Poor adapted for the stage. Katriona's new book, Hungry, explores her lifelong struggles with her body and the unrelenting drive to feel, “enough”. Katriona talks to Datshiane about how trauma, class and gender shape how women see themselves. Presenter: Datshiane Navanayagam Producer: Rebecca Myatt

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. Live BBC Radio is now available on BBC.com and the BBC app. Get global perspectives, rich conversation and immediate reaction to breaking news stories wherever you are. Listen to the BBC World Service and BBC Radio 4 stations 24-7. Visit BBC.com slash audio or download the BBC app to start listening. Hello, I'm Dashiani Navanayagum and welcome to Women's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Just to say that for rights reasons, the music in the original radio broadcast has been removed for this podcast. Good morning and welcome to the programme.

Joining us today is singer-songwriter Jessie Ware, fresh from her beautiful performance of the way we were at the BAFTAs recently. She's here to talk to us about her new album. Now, it's hard to imagine the level of abuse, neglect and poverty one little girl went through growing up in the 1980s. That little girl is now the award-winning lecturer and best-selling author Dr Katrina O'Sullivan. Her new book, Hungry, explores the complicated relationship she has always had with her body and with hunger, physically, emotionally and metaphorically, particularly her hunger for success. So this morning, I want to ask you whether you too have struggled with a continual hunger for some form of accomplishment and achievement.

Are you an eternal striver who is always looking for more? And if so, how do you manage this? Or maybe you're 100% content. In that case, how have you reached that point? Maybe you were always that way. Well, please do get in touch in all the usual ways. on 84844 on social media. We're at BBC Women's Hour.

You can email us through the website or send us a WhatsApp message or voice note on 0300-100-444. Also, according to the National Autistic Society, there are around 700,000 autistic people in the UK. And when you include families, well, that's more than 2.8 million people whose lives are touched by autism.

So we'll be discussing what support is out for them and their families. Do stay with us a lot coming up over the next hour. That text number again is 84844. But first, today is primary school Offer Day in England and Wales. That's when parents will be finding out where their children might be starting school in September. Now, a new government-backed campaign has been launched to help parents and carers as figures show that over a third of children are currently starting reception

without the basic skills they need for the classroom. Now, BBC education reporter Kate McGoff joins me now, along with Felicity Gillespie from Children's Charity, Kindred Square, who've helped put guidance together. Kate and Felicity, very warm welcome to Women's Hour. Thank you. Kate, let's start with you. Why has the government decided to make school readiness a focus now?

Well, the government have got an ambition for three quarters of children to reach a good level of development by the time they leave reception class. So at the moment, it's about 68% of children who reach that, who have a good level of development. So they're looking to bump that number up by an extra 45,000 children a year if they want to reach that goal. But what schools are actually seeing on the ground when children arrive at reception is that a lot of them are lacking some of the basics. skills that they need to be able to learn and to therefore reach the good level of development by the end of their very first year at school. So teachers are seeing things like issues with toilet training, communication skills, children arriving who aren't able to put on their coat and shoes or maybe can't sit still and listen. So it's not about children arriving at school

without academic abilities. It's about these basic life skills that teachers are then having to spend time helping them develop and dealing with. And essentially, we did some BBC research back in September at the beginning of the school year. We did a survey of reception teachers and with teacher tap. And we found that, you know, 85% of the primary school teachers who got back to us said they had at least one pupil in their class who needed some help going to the toilet in that first week of term.

And a third had at least five children who needed some sort of help. And also, most teachers were reported. a decrease in speech and language abilities over the past two years. And obviously, Kindred Squared, a charity, do an annual survey about this. They're seeing something really similar. So these are skills that children lack, which are presumably incredibly disruptive in the classroom. Now, the government, they've issued national guidance for schools, nurseries and childminders. Just tell us exactly what does that cover?

Yes, so this is actually new guidance and it's aimed at nurseries, early years settings, really. so nurseries, childminders and schools, and it's asking them for the first time to work a lot more closely with families to help smooth that transition from nurseries into school. It's asking them to build strong relationships with families starting now on Offer Day, really. So ahead of September,

it's saying families should have the opportunity to visit their brand new primary school before children start or meet teachers before September and that they should maybe be stay in place at kind of the nursery settings. basically encouraging much closer collaboration, which would allow an early identify of any special needs around, especially things like toilet issues.

So it's really encouraging teachers and schools to make contact with families early and help smooth that transition so that when they get to reception class, they're actually ready to learn. If things are highlighted and families do need additional support, helping their kids get ready for school, what support will there be for them? There's already a really comprehensive, and I think your next guest is going to talk about this as well, but a really comprehensive list of tips that have been developed with the early years sector by Kindred Square, the charity.

And they have on their website, they have a definition for starting reception that the Department of Education is pointing parents towards, essentially. It's been developed across the sector. And it's a really good checklist of things you should have a look at where your child should be at or should be aiming to, for before they start school. And it's not about pressurising parents, but about, I guess, pointing them to the right support and saying, these are milestones that everybody is aiming for and just a little bit of extra help for parents, essentially. Felicity, let me bring you in here, because you've put this guidance and support together, which has been developed with early years providers and charities. So tell us, because people will be wondering, what is on your starting reception

checklist? Well, good morning, and thanks very much for discussing this. I mean, I I think the scale of the issue is something that we need to sort of highlight at the beginning because teachers are telling us that they're losing on average two and a half hours a day nearly to providing catch-up support to children who are not school ready. So this really does matter. It doesn't just matter for the children who are not ready. It matters for all the other children in the class as well, whose teaching and learning is being broken up by that additional support being required for the children who need the help.

The starting reception.co.uk advice that Kate mentioned is available online for anyone who wants it. And under the various aspects of the definition, there are four pillars of the definition, which cover growing independence, building relationships and communicating, healthy routines and physical development. Under each of those pillars, there's a whole set of resources where parents can go if they're stuck for ideas. for, you know, how do you teach your child how to put on their coat? Is there a good way of doing it? Is there a better way of doing it? You know, how do you go about potty training?

There's a whole potty training guide there that gives all the sort of tips and ideas and support for parents who are really struggling. So I think if people want to go and have a look at that guide, that's a really good place to start. I mean, you mentioned potty training there. That's the one thing that people do know about. And a lot of people, I know friends of mine have really struggled to get their kids ready in time for that and it's been a big source of stress. You have developed a potty training guide for parents.

Can you just talk us through that? Yeah. I think the important thing to say is it's not Kindred Square's guide. This is the guide that's been put together by leading experts across the early years sector because I think one of the problems and the challenges for parents is there's just so much evidence out there, so much guidance when you Google, you know, potty training. You know, how do you know where to where to go, what to trust?

So the point about the potty training guide.co.uk, which is available through the starting reception website, the point about that is it's very simple, very concise, very clear, and it's all evidence-based and expert-led. So I think the key really is just not to panic. You know, school-ready, being school-ready is about life skills. You need to be encouraging your child to strengthen their fine motor skills by, you know, threading beads, playing with bricks, playing with Lego, cutting, sticking, drawing, holding a crayon. You don't need to be teaching them to write. So I think for parents, it's about not panicking,

focusing on the sort of life skills, building communication and language that Kate talked about, encouraging their independence, putting on their, you know, coat and shoes and toilet training, go to the potty training guide and have a look there, developing routines, you know, getting consistent bedtimes in place, practicing sitting still for short periods,

getting used to eating at regular times. It's getting these basics in place so that when they start reception in September, they're really ready to kind of fly and take advantage of all the wonderful opportunities there. Kate, you've recently been to York where they are running a pilot project. Tell us about that because if I'm not mistaken, they're aiming to have all school children school ready by September, aren't they? Yeah, they're focusing in particularly around potty training. So it's the city of York Council and they have an ambition to have every child who's starting school this September potty trained.

And it's, so what they've done essentially is a really joint effort between schools, the council and health services to, with every primary school offer that gets sent out today to York families, they'll receive a potty training guide within it. And also the council are offering lots of workshops all around the city, trying to reach parents essentially and working with this, about 55 schools involved as well. And they'll have access to health advice that they can point parents towards. And essentially, the council were really keen to stress. It's about working with parents.

It's not about piling the pressure on. But essentially, they said last year, they measured this. And with our 1,500 children who started school last year, about 60 were still in nappies and about 200 still had other toileting issues. And across 55 schools, you know, we're talking about around one or two or several in each school, essentially. So York have decided to focus on this. know, quite ambitious target, really, to see if they can eliminate that by next year. And obviously, there are exceptions for children who have a medical need and will have special

educational needs. But it's really a collaborative citywide effort, really, with this aim. So I went, talked to parents there, talked to schools. I talked to this amazing reception teacher called Jo, who's been working for 30 years, and she said she's seen a huge change in that time in terms of how children were arriving at school and the skills that they have. And obviously, it's a national problem. It's not just a York problem. Felicity, if there are parents listening now who are finding out about their child's primary school place today, what should their priority be over the summer? Where would you encourage them to focus on? Well, I think, Kate, the York experiment is really exciting because

it could be a blueprint for cities and local authorities up and down the country to address the potty training problem one in four children starting not toilet train nationally is is something we need to address so I do think if your child is in nappies and starting school in September and they don't have a medical diagnosis such as a bowel or bladder condition now is the time to really really start go to potty training guide.co.uketuk get those nappies off take take control of the situation and get started as soon as you possibly can but but also the other things I mentioned you know be practicing independence, be building social skills, be playing with other children, going to the park, sharing toys, taking turns, understanding, you know, simple boundaries, following simple

instructions. And I think the key is, I just go back to this point about not panicking. And it's all about practice. So look, it's only April. You've got till September. There's lots of time to just be practicing. Keep talking to your child. Keep asking them. questions which are open. So it's not yes, no answers, but, you know, ask their opinions about things. What do you think is going to happen next? Have those sort of more open conversations to get that sort of two-way conversation flowing a bit more. Keep them, keep them focused on the independence, practicing coat and shoes, practicing using cutlery, practicing opening their lunchboxes and talk to them about school. It's such an exciting time. You know, they're starting

big school. It's the next great adventure that they're going to be setting off on. And I think think we all, we need to not sort of panic about this. Yes, it's a really big national problem that we sort of need to face and deal with together. But I think the York, the York experiment shows that when the whole community, health and education, schools, pharmacies, GPs, when everyone comes together around the families, you know, there's so much we can do together. And I think, I think just starting now, don't panic, practice, practice, practice, and we'll all get there. I think that's fantastic advice. And as he's just said, you know, there is time. It's only April. There is plenty of time.

I think we're going to have to leave it there for now, but Kate and Felicity, thank you so much for joining us this morning. That was BBC Education reporter Kate McGoff and Felicity Julespie from Charity, Kindred Squared. Now, the singer-songwriter Jesse Ware has seven Brit nominations, two Mercury Prize nominations and five top ten albums under her belt. Her critically acclaimed 2020 album, What's Your Pleasure, included singles, Save a Kirst, and remember where you are,

which notably former US President Barack Obama's was former US President Barack Obama's playlist choice. But as well as being known for making music, Jessie's family passion for food has also led to her co-hosting with her mum Lenny, the podcast Table Manners, featuring a host of celebrity guests like Ed Sheerin and Kylie. Well, Jessie's new album, Superbloom is released tomorrow,

and I'm delighted to say that she joins me now in the studio, Jesse, a very warm welcome to Women's Hour. Hello. Thank you for having me. No, thank you very much for being here. Now, look, let's discuss your new album because it has a very 70s disco, funky vibe. How did you go about creating the sound? And also, do you come up with the music or the lyrics first?

I think you just played Remember Where You Are, and I think it's a song that I was so proud of on What's Your Pleasure. And I kind of wanted to create that warmth and glow. with this record and how do I come up with the songs? It varies. I mean, mostly it's dictated by the melody. I'll kind of like hum and have a beat and my producer or my co-writer would be playing some music and I'll be singing around. But for some of the songs on this record, such as, well, 16 summers, I kind of had this idea

for this song and I started singing this chorus before I had any chorus. to it so it varies and that was yeah i mean you're talking to someone who's very non-musical the idea that you can just be kind of going around and a chorus or a melody comes to you blows my mind well it blew my mind too to be honest it doesn't usually happen like that but i was on a bike i was on a line bike going to another session and i had this title 16 summers and i was like well i'm just going to kind of sing some things on the i feel like when you're in motion Whenever I'm doing like laps in the swimming pool which is quite not that regular

or riding a bike well you can't look at your phone I think that sits your you're kind of with yourself so there's more ideas Yeah the phone, the death of creation Oh I know Well tell us what's the subject matter

this time around with the album because it's quite different from what's gone before not just music really yeah I mean I think for the past two records I was very much enjoying this escapism and storytelling from with characters. I think I was kind of ready to allow real life to come back in

in a more kind of vulnerable and open form. So whilst there are characters on this record, such as a lady called Shirley Bloom on a song called Don't You Know Who I Am, I'm also, I was loving my life that I was being, I have three kids and I love being a parent and a partner, but I love normal life. I also love that I get to, dress up in sequence and sing

around the world, it's fab. But I think I was enjoying living normality in all its kind of forms and so I wanted to allow like domesticity to be a part of this record, however unsexy that may sound. You know, it was a wonderful

feeling being able to write about my children and whilst I had kind of shied away from that maybe previously. Do you think this album is more you then? Or maybe just I think maybe with the success of the last few records and the podcast where it's very warts and all,

and you hear my mum and I going at each other. And I felt more ready to take off the mask a bit more and let down my guard. But I think all my records are me, but I think that, you know, I'm maybe more direct in this one. Now you said you used to keep your family and private life quite separate from your music. but doing the podcast, warts and all, you've allowed that to seep into this album.

And I mean, I was having a listen last night and I loved 16 Summers. You briefly mentioned it earlier. And you can hear the sound of children at the beginning. So just tell us who those children are and why we're hearing them. So it's, it comes, 16 Summers comes after, don't you know who I am,

where I am playing a character, Shirley Bloom, she lives in the med, She's deluded. She's fabulous. And I wanted to kind of segue these tracks from complete, well, fiction to beautiful and harsh reality with the sounds of the waves. I go to an island called Scopoulos in Greece every year with my family. I've been going since I was six years old.

Got married there. My children now adore it. And on this island we have a favorite beach called Limnanari Beach. And it's the sound of the waves with my son, my youth. youngest, my four-year-old playing in the waves. And it's that idyllic moment where summer's well, nearly over. And that's what we hear at the beginning. That's what you're hearing at the beginning. And it's that kind of peaceful time when lots of people have left the beach and the sun's nearly gone down. And so I wanted to kind of sit in that for a moment. And so yeah,

my kids are a part of it in, because I think, you know, they are so much of my life. They are everything. I'm obsessed with them as all parents are. And so I wanted, for more selfish reasons, to have these kind of vignettes of family, beautiful family moments on the record. And it's called 16 summers, I think, because you've said you get 16 summers with them to yourself.

No, so from the podcast, we have lots of wonderful chats. And, you know, when I had Gillian Anderson on the podcast, she was talking about her book, Want, which was a collection of, you know, essays on design. and from that I wrote I could get used to this and referenced Nancy Friday's Secret Garden and but with 16 summers Jason Manford had been on and he was like well you know you only get 16 summers with your kids and I thought oh gosh when you put it like that's depressing and also that's not true in the case of my mother and I where we're tethered but I thought about that notion and about time and losing time and you know we're trying to rush everything so much whether it's bedtime or you know get them out the door for school and you're tired and it's about you know it's very hard to sometimes appreciate that they're only little for so long and they only want to be in your orbit for hopefully they'll always want to hang out with me but I thought about this and I thought

16 summers had a beautiful kind of lilton ring to it and then I started thinking about what that would mean like if that's all I'm going to get then what am I going to do with the this time with my my loved ones I'm being indulgent asking you this but Also, at the start of your track, love you. You can hear a giggle. Yeah. A little child's voice saying, love you the rest of your life. Is that, that...

Those are my three kids that came in. It's a song, my daughter demanded that I wrote a song for my youngest because she thought it wasn't fair. She's very all about fairness and she, um... I think fair enough. Didn't think it was fair that she had one. Poor girl got the most depressing apologetic song. I need to rewrite one for her.

And then my middle one had had one. So she was like, you need to write one for the youngest. But it's really for all of them. And so I thought, well, I may as well get them on the track because that would be quite fun. They misbehaved in the studio totally. It was like mum bringing them to the office. You should have brought them in here today, really. Oh, no, no, no, no.

There'd be lots of talk of poo and we. Again. We sometimes discuss that album without you. My favourite topic. Now, what's really interesting as well about your album is you have these lovely sort of family songs that are so nostalgic in a way. But there's also a few. tracks that are quite risque. Tell us about those. For example, you've got Ride, which is a Western inspired video with the actor James Norton. I was watching it last night. Just tell us what it was,

what it is, and how much fun was that to make? And why did you pick James Norton and what did you say when you asked him? I've just given you a whole barred questions there. Yeah, I have a few risque ones and I think I feel very kind of confident and free to talk about sexuality. and sensuality and pleasure and desire. And that song is very much a kind of role play. I mean, it's definitely fictitious. It interpolates the good, the bad, the ugly. The do-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-do.

And I am a woman in it that is, well, I'm telling the cowboy what to do. And so I saw James at a party and I asked him, if he could ride a horse and he could. And it's just so happens he can ride a horse phenomenally. And he listened to the song and he was up for it. And I think that he was such a good sport. And, you know, he's quite easy on the ice. I thought that I'd take one for the team.

And, you know, and let everyone see James Norton with his top off. And I'm sure many of us are very glad that you did. I think we ruffled the Grant Chest. fans a little bit so apologies to them. Well, as well as your album, you've also just announced a huge arena tour. And I mean, on stage, you look like a real disco diva. How much do you enjoy that element of live performance? I adore it and I feel like I've got better at it as I've had this job for longer.

You know, confidence and fans that just are so supportive and encourage me. I love it. I think it's, you know, a beautiful, the most exciting part of my job. When I'm making these records, I'm thinking about that live show and how it's that immediate connection with fans. My kids came to a little acoustic show that I came, I did last week. And, I mean, two of them, I think, were on YouTube by, you know, the third song, which I think is totally fair enough. But my daughter was quite interested in. She's the eldest.

But I want them to also see that the reason I'm maybe out at night sometimes is because I get to do the most amazing job and I get to have this amazing connection with people. You recently performed at the Bafters. Yeah. What was that like? Because you sang the way we were. Yeah.

And it was very emotional. And this was the part of the show where photos are shown of artists who have recently died and it included Robert Redford. What was that like? It was a huge honour. And I also am a huge fan of Barber Streisand and that song. so to get the chance to sing it but also I think you have to

you know it's in a very poignant moment and lots of those people that I'm singing to in the audience will have worked with these people on the screen so I wanted to deliver something that felt sensitive and I was terrified

to be honest I was terrified but Hannah Waddingham gave me a pep talk before I went on she'd sung it the year before she'd sung I think time after time Cindy Lauper and she just held my hand And she said, don't think about the people in that room.

Think about the people that have lost somebody. And I think, don't think about it as performing for these people in the room. Think about it as people that have lost somebody. And she'd lost her mum, I think, in the past year. And so she said, I feel like they're all in good hands, Jessie. And she really, it really gets, it made, I think, the performance even more kind of sentimental and powerful. Because, yeah, these people have lost, not only have we lost cinema grey, but, you know, these people have lost friends

and it made me think about people that I've lost. I mean, it was a hugely emotional performance. And, you know, you mentioned there that you still got nervous before it. Oh, got you. But you've grown in confidence. What's your 40s been like? You've spoken a bit about it. Yeah, I'm enjoying my 40s.

I feel like I am more comfortable in my own skin. I am more confident in my career and also as a businesswoman. but also I think we're out of that stage with the stage of my kids, you know, we're out of that stage of kind of nappies and mostly no sleepless nights. But, you know, it's that madness of a new parent. I'm out of that. The kids are at school. There's that kind of renegotiation with your partner of how do we work now

that we aren't a kind of an operational team. And so I love it. I feel incredibly confident in my body and myself. And I love my 40s. I'm definitely better than your 30s. Yeah. And definitely better than my 20s. Oh, I hated my 20s.

Well, you know, we're discussing today this idea of hunger and how many of us have. Yeah. So, I mean, because, you know, you've had albums. There's the performing, the live element, a podcast with your mom, three children. I mean, how do you, I mean, I'm, you must have this hungry. You must have a hunger. How do you control it? And is it ever enough?

I sometimes, I think my husband and I think very differently. And I think he would say, are you not content with what you have? And I am, I'm so appreciative, but I do have a hunger and an ambition. And sometimes I think that can be seen as a negative sometimes with people. but it's something that keeps things exciting for me. I do love what I've got though and I don't take it for granted, but I definitely need to read that book. It's not something that you struggle to control then.

Yeah, I think we all kind of struggle with it. Yeah, I do. I think sometimes you do need to just stay put. I'm definitely the most impatient person I know. And with that, I think there's this hunger. Jessie, it's been lovely to talk to you. Thank you so much for coming in. Thank you for having me.

That was Jessie Ware. Super Bloom is out tomorrow and the Super Bloom tour starts in October. It will include her first UK arena run, including London's O2 Arena, New York's Radio City Music Hall and Los Angeles, the Greek Theatre. Now, you can text the show on 84844. Text will be charged at your standard message rate. We've had lots of people messaging the programme on school readiness on children needing. on children needing assistance to go to the loo, ask any parent of kids that age,

are they able to wipe their own bum? I think nearly every parent would answer that they are still helping their kids get dressed and go to the loo. Schools need to be child ready. Maybe the expectations are wrong. Another listener has got in touch and says maybe children in England start school too young,

younger than even in Scotland, not to mention elsewhere in Europe, where it's often six years, not four years. Can the youngest ones stay back until the next year. Yeah, I was a May-born child and I definitely, I think, felt the age gap difference. We have someone else's written in. I haven't left your name, but you did say on hunger and ambition, I really empathised with the need to achieve after a childhood of abuse. Finding safe places and people to be with who allow you to process emotions is one of the most important

tools I've found. If we're always told to smile to be happy and not to complain, then the pain, the grief and anger of an abusive childhood can't be processed and it can't be released. But if you can let it out with somebody calm and loving who you can co-regulate your nervous system to, you can learn what safety looks like and start to do it for yourself. It's very hard to be something we've never seen. Thank you very much for that. Live BBC Radio is now available on BBC.com and the BBC app. Get global perspectives, rich conversation and immediate reaction to breaking news stories wherever you are. Listen to the BBC World Service and BBC Radio 4 stations 24-7.

Visit BBC.com slash audio or download the BBC app to start listening. Now, if you are an autistic person or you have someone in your social circle or family circle who is, well, you may have come across Autism Central. It's an online support service set up by NHS England, in 2021 for parents and carers of autistic people. Well, now it's been expanded to offer help for everyone in the support network. So that includes grandparents, partners, friends and adult siblings, delivering thousands of support sessions each year.

It's paid for by NHS England. And for the last year, it's been run by the Mental Health charity Anna Freud. So with more and more of us being diagnosed with autism and many of us waiting for a diagnosis, what exactly does this online help offer? and what more needs to be done? Well, joining me on the line is Victoria Jackson, who has a 19-year-old daughter with autism.

They've been using the service since last October, and in the studio with me is Dr. Georgia Pavlapolu, the director of Autism Central at Anna Freud, the Mental Health Charity, which is running the service. Georgia and Victoria, thank you very much for joining the show. Victoria, I want to start with you. Tell me about when your daughter was diagnosed, nosed as autistic. What was happening around that time? She's 19 now, but this was when she was 10.

Yes, she was in the final years of primary school and she's never been particularly keen on school. But as the social expectations changed the talk of moving to secondary school, she began to really struggle and a lot of comments were made about her not being able to focus and she started to struggle to get into school and became quite withdrawn and once she was diagnosed with autism you yourself realised at that point that it was something that you too might have it's something I've always known there's been a lot of, there's been differences I struggled with mental health issues, depression throughout my life, but not known why. And I'd known about autism from sort of the 90s when I studied, but it talked about lacking empathy and not caring, which was not something I associated with. and then when I looked back into it when I was looking into it about Caitlin

a lot of the research was beginning to change and I saw myself in it and it explained so much it sounds like it was very very tough at that point how much support did you have around you initially I didn't have I had some support we moved We lived in the south for a long term at that point. It was when we moved to the north-east, it became an issue. And it wasn't the understanding support available.

Well, you have been using Autism Central since October last year. Georgia, I just want to bring you in here because can you tell us a bit about this service? It's not a service that's one. by medical staff. So how exactly does it work? So there's something really beautiful about the program Anna Freud is running commission by NHS England. There's something about relatable support by upskilled peers who have been in similar situations. Many of them are autistic themselves and all of them have an autistic family member. What we're very proud about offering is this very relatable and timely support

across a range of issues since Anna Floyd started delivering the program. We have expanded it on things that really matter for families. We talk about siblings, about grandparents, about stigma, and autistic mental health, autistic joy, leisure skills. We know so many family members as well have been misdiagnosed or are wondering about their own neurodivergences. So we offer a safe space, non-clinical safe space where people can get accurate evidence-based information. We know from the work we do at UCL as well, there is a safe space. research. So many families need to have timely, safe, good quality information to understand how to navigate the many complex spaces. What are the benefits of this type of online service

which is peer-supported compared to say other support groups? I think there's something really special and magic when you get immediately the right time, the right person who has very similar experience with you who gets it, who you can unapologetically be yourself. and talk about the joys and the difficulties of your family is a space where people are telling us more and more that they can talk about things without feeling judged. They can gain strategies information about school attendance, about autistic mental health, self-harm.

And I think the magic, that sense of belonging, one of the things that has surprised me is that so many families are coming back to us telling us, this is a me moment. Like I'm coming to Autism Central sessions and it's available to people across England, across all regions. And it's my time. I can cry.

I can talk. I can connect with others. And I think it's down to the Anafroid facilitators and peer guides who borrow their regulation to parents, create a very safe space for them to talk and to be. Victoria, you've been using Autism Central, as I said earlier since October last year. How has it helped you?

Being a very special space. It has come at a time when I was very overwhelmed by a lot of the chaos that was going on and felt very unseen and lost a lot of confidence connecting with people. So I was getting more isolated. And it was going into a space where with people who understood that it was a safe space that it was a safe space. structure and the focus wasn't just about everything that was going wrong in the life or all the problems. There was also what is possible looking at ways that things that you can do. And it is right.

It's also looking at joy in those moments of joy which there are. People think it's a tragedy and it isn't all. There are some women we just connect very differently. You've taken part in group sessions, but also one-to-one as well? Yeah, there's different sort of group sessions. There's education sessions, which is going through theory, more up-to-date research about which is based in autistic lived experience. But there also is interactive elements. So it's bringing those theories into the everyday.

and then there were reflective sessions which sort of expand upon that and it's enabled it to look more from my daughter's perspective to show more curiosity. And then there's one-to-one peer guides where there are things that you can't necessarily discuss in a group situation. They're not, it's made very clear they're not therapists, but they've been there and they understand. and it is literally just someone who is not, totally isn't involved in your life, but is calm, has been there. And they can help you talk through things.

And sometimes having things reflected back to you and looking at different ways to approach things has been really helpful. We can, you know, we can, I can see how joyful you are when you're talking about the service. Georgia, over 70% of your users are female. Yes, they are, and I think that speaks a lot to the societal expectation, you know, and the pressures that females and those assigned as females in the families are carrying,

not just mothers, but also sisters of autistic people. And I think there's another way that gender is impacting on people who are joining the service. So many females are coming telling us that they have been, lost in the system. They have been not diagnosed. They are coming, telling us about uncovered needs, about their own neurodivergences, autism, 88, steam, mental health needs, and they're finding a space of validation, they're finding a space where they can explore for themselves with others. And they get that deep sense of belonging with so many of us, if you are neurodivergent, you just don't take it for granted. It can be very isolating. You can

been a very dark place thinking on your own about how to go about things. So these women are coming. They're joining the dots. They start understanding their life journeys. They start understanding the strengths and the difficulties. Georgia and Victoria, I just want to thank you so much for coming in and talking to us on Women's Hour. That was Dr. Georgia Pavlopolo, director of Autism Central at Anna Freud and Victoria Jackson. And I just want to read out a statement from NHS England who say that we know that many family members and carers of autistic people do not always get the advice, support and guidance they need when they need it. And this can vary depending on where people live.

And they say that that is why they are funding national peer support groups and networks so that people can access help wherever they are in England. And they also say that Autism Central is making a real difference to people's lives and that we are proud to support their work. Now, my next guest joins me, and I'm going to just say this, because the words, resilience, power, self-belief and determination are all too easy to bandy around. But my next guest really does embody them. Katrina O'Sullivan has had a huge level of professional success. She's an award-winning lecturer and professor of psychology at Maynooth University in Ireland, and she's also a best-selling author.

but Katrina's childhood was marked by extreme poverty, neglect, addiction and abuse. At 15, she had her first child and also experienced homelessness, and she recounts these experiences in her memoir, Poor. Katrina's new book, Hungry, A Biography of My Body, reveals her lifelong struggles with body and self-worth and the unrelenting quest to feel enough. Katrina, it's such a pleasure to have you in the Women's Hour studio. Hello.

Hello, and thanks for having me on again. So great to be here. No, we're delighted that you'd come on and talk to us. I want to start with Hungary because we, you know, your book, Paul was such a searing and candid look at your life and everything you overcame. What made you realise that your next book needed to be, as you title it, a biography of my body? I think sometimes when you're a writer or you communicate or you want to change things or express a topic, sometimes you can't. you can, it's, you've no choice but to write it. So when I read poor and when I wrote poor, I said, I'm done now.

I've revealed everything. But I talk a lot on social media about my body and I share the different feelings that I have in one moment about liking myself and not liking myself in exactly the same moments. When I do that, I just get a rush of women who, I suppose, message me and identify with that. That was the beginnings of the idea. But I also think more importantly than that, the reason why I wrote Hungary is because we live in a world where every woman I know is trying to shrink themselves. And unfortunately, certain women try to shrink themselves in really harmful ways,

like women who are poor or women are traumatised like myself. And I thought I could use my story in a way to talk about some of the really significant issues that women face when it comes to body image. And I've been on a journey with my own body. And yeah, so that's why I decided to write another memoir. Let's talk about your body because there's really, I mean, it sticks. out in my mind in your book where you talk about your body as a young child and you remember it as being joyful and capable and you talk about playing football in the street with your brothers

but also just doing cartwheel. Yeah. And feeling strong. Yeah. You know, strong strength in your body. Explain just what that was like for you. So I didn't even know that I was a girl. Like I remember vividly like not having been gendered even. So I was brilliant at football. I grew up with three brothers. We were all close in age and my sister came later. And I'd go out on the street and I'd go in for a tackle like any of the lads. I'd fight them like anybody else. And I had this real happy, you know, free feeling in my body. I didn't realize that it was a, you know, it was anything other than a vessel for pleasure

and something to roam free in the streets with. And I had this vivid memory of myself, having no shame about my body or the sexual elements of my body. So the story about cartwheeling, I just remember doing cartwheel after cartwheel and my, skirt going over my head and my knickers showing and not being embarrassed at all about my body and feeling like it was something to be really proud of. And my experience in life, not just in my family life, and experience of trauma that I had, but also the world that I grew up in taught me that my body was for something else. And it wasn't just for pleasure. It was for other things. And I suppose this is the journey of that. Well, you write openly about being sexually abused by a family

friend at seven years old and then other experiences of abuse and later rape. Yeah. And how this had a profound impact on how you saw yourself and how you related to your body. Exactly. So as a little girl, I mean, we talk about girls and boys quite differently from a very young age. We talk about little girls' images a lot. So all of the positive reinforcement I got for my environment was from people commenting on

my beautiful face and your hair is beautiful. And then at age seven, my first experience of sexual abuse. actually when that happened, it kind of fractured me. And because I had all these messages about prettiness and girliness, I actually kind of connected the two things together. I thought because that my body had attracted this man to do this really bad thing to me. And the thing about my life and a lot of kids' life who experience sexual abuse, sexual abuse is not rare.

And I think we need to kind of normalize conversations about it and remove the shame for the victim. And in my case, because I had no one to talk about, that with, that horrific experience. I internalised this idea that my body had invited these experiences. And that became like a constant thought in my head that there was something wrong with my body. Like I lost that little girl who could cartwheel and show her knickers. Like I began to feel shame and like there was something wrong with me.

And because then I went out into a world that sexualises women, like it confirmed these ideas that I had about my body. And because we don't talk about these things, I had no messages to challenge them ideas. I do just want to say because it is such a difficult thing to talk about and also a difficult thing for people to hear. So, you know, for listeners who are listening and do want further help, I just want to point you to the BBC action line. But there is, I want to touch on this aspect because you said, you know, the sexual abuse and rape caused you to view your body in a different way. And there is an aspect of sexual abuse that is very rarely discussed. But you raise it in your book where you talk about recognising.

what was happening to you and hating it happening, but also having to reckon with your body responding in a different way. And we often don't discuss the psychological pressure and situation this puts someone in, particularly a young child, which, as you say, you know, you didn't, you were having to reason with yourself. Can you share more about it and how you did eventually deal with this? Yes. So my body, our bodies are designed for pleasure.

Little girls' bodies are designed for pleasure from birth. And we can respond sexually from birth because that's developing, it's meant to be there. Sex is meant to be pleasurable. But when I experience sexual abuse and I do write about this and I aware that this can be triggering for people. But my body responded pleasurably to being touched in the places that I was touched. But psychologically, I wasn't ready for that and I didn't understand that. So what happened to me is I had this, this feeling. feeling of I must have enjoyed that and this kind of contradiction of being extremely scared and

unable to process what was happening to me. But also this thing, well, why did my body like it? And why did I respond with so much pleasure? And that was, that's a really taboo subject. And I've been really lucky that I've had a lot of therapy and I've been able to process that them experiences. And through therapy, I've learned that that's quite common in people have experienced sexual abuse. Their bodies respond with pleasure, even if they're in a fearful situation and that has been something that I've had to really work through as an adult to be able to kind of feel safe and to forgive my body because I didn't have control over its reactions and that was a really hard thing for me to go through but also for me to process and heal from. Well you talk about these three core drivers in your book and they all centre around hunger, hunger for connection, hunger for achievement and hunger to be smaller. Let's let's just take hunger for connection first. What did you mean by that, this hunger for connection?

So I grew up in a home where there was two heroin addicts. My earliest memories are of watching my mom prostitute herself and my dad sell drugs and overdose. And my relationship, so the book is themed around how them relationships made me feel about myself as a valuable person, my body. And so my relationship with my dad particularly was quite negative in the sense that he loved me, but he loved me in this kind of, there was rules attached to the law. And so I never truly felt love.

And what happens when you don't have love as a child, you long for it. But alongside the long for love, which is natural, I also had this really low self-esteem. So what that's set in train was me being really attracted to relationships that were quite negative. So I went from being this really hurt girl who didn't know her value, didn't see how beautiful she was. To a teenager that was just chasing boys that were unavailable because I didn't have the sense. But the drive, the drive for that. And the drive in all women who may be behaving in ways that look like they're being, you know, slutty, let's say, or they're not respecting themselves. The drive for all of us is for love.

I just wanted to be loved. And I didn't know actually how to achieve that. So my book journeys, that hunger and all the things I did, all the men, all of the men, until I got to this one point in therapy where I said, I'm actually never going to be with a man again without having an orgasm. That was one of the biggest decisions that I made, but also without knowing that he was going to respect me. And that was a pivotal moment in my life, the therapy and the decision. And then a year later, I met my husband and was able to actually demand pleasure. That confidence of being able to ask for what you were. Yeah.

But the hunger for connection was, it was very big in me. And it was very big in me because I didn't have connection as a child. And because of my parents' addiction, I didn't feel loved. So it was like it went awry. So the hunger was pathological. And that I was driven to do lots of things. And sometimes we can look at women and think, why is she continuing to go to negative relationships? Why is she continuing to be with bad men?

But sometimes when you've had negative experiences, you're driven to love, but you don't have the self-esteem or the confidence. I also want to talk about your hunger for achievement. But before I do, I just want to read this text that has just come in from one listener who says, I am a great admirer of Katrina O'Sullivan, both her biographical and her academic work. As a working-class woman who was written off at school and has struggled to obtain a part-time self-funded PhD much later in life,

I find the biggest barrier to my progression on middle-class people who have had a much easier route through life and have little to zero understanding of what it means for someone like me to get to where I have. That's actually brought tears to my eye. Like I get messages, since I've written my first memoir and this one, I get messages at least 10 a day from women

who feel seen. That's one of the reasons why I've written hungry is because I think it's really important that we share stories like mine, story of women who are poor, who are traumatised, but also who are thriving. Like it's not a destination growing up poor, having trauma,

Like, I'm a really happy person and I'm really successful in my life. And my biggest success is my love and my family. It's not my academics, even though I'm very proud of that. And hopefully we'll get on to that. But yeah, the drive for achievement is all, like, all the drives went pathological than me. Well, let's get on to that because I'm so aware that I just listed a whole list of accolades at the beginning to introduce you. And some people may think maybe that makes up for everything that's come before. No, it doesn't.

No, I think the point of telling my story is that there's no before. and after for a woman like me. Like we need to protect children from poverty and trauma. That's the whole point of telling these stories, is that we need to do more in childhood. Like I went to school hungry every day. The only meal I received as a child was school meals. And so it was really important to me to advocate for that.

But when I hit 21 and did a bit of therapy, I got into university through an access program. And it was my first time of actually achieving something like good, like self-esteem building. Before that, I'd been a dinner lady and a cleaner, nothing wrong with them drugs. but I'd never been in a place like Trinity College. But once you start, like, achieving things,

that can become addictive as well. You can be driven. And I think we live in a world that, like, encourage us women and men to be driven. How did you manage that then? Because that can be a source of distress, actually, despite all the sort of accolades coming in. Yes. So, like, I think in my case,

being surrounded in, I was in this really affluent university with all these posh kids who had loads of capital and they ate cusscus and they wore. satchels and they had weird names and I'd be like, I'm this chavvy girl who's a lone parent. But the achievement piece, the bit that I was, the bit that really helped was that I was good at the academics.

I failed school. I left at 15 with no GCSEs. Like, I was guided into becoming a cleaner or a waitress. That was my guidance in skills. So flip to 23 and I'm in Trinity College and I'm getting A's, I'm getting first class honours. Like, that's an amazing feeling. And so that kept me going, despite the fact I didn't

fit. But then that could be Like it's like a piece of string. Like no matter how good you do in university or in work, it doesn't fix what's broken inside you. Katrina, we're running out of time. But just before we go, just what's the one last thing, you know, you want women listening to this to take away? It's okay to be big.

You don't need to shrink yourself. It's okay to be big. It's okay to have a big body and a big mouth and a big brain. And like we should be striving for that and encourage that. And if you feel like you need to shrink, listen to me and remember like there's space for you. There's space for all of us. Thank you so much. We could talk to you all day. That was Katrina O'Sullivan and her new book, Hungary, is out on the 23rd of April. And if you have been affected by any of the issues raised, you can visit the BBC Action Line website.

Now, for more advice and resources to prepare for school, we were discussing that earlier, you can go to the CBB's parenting website, which is packed with expert-led support to help you with the transition. I'll see you again tomorrow. That's all for today's women's hour. Join us again next time. I told my dad stop immediately this is a scam. Scam secrets with me, Shari Val. He had actually paid £209,000 to the scammers.

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