Woman's Hour - Jill Goldston, Internet Watch Foundation report, Getaway Girls in Leeds, Cash for Babies Scandal

Episode Date: November 18, 2022

The Internet Watch Foundation has been tracking the increasing trend of perpetrators grooming children online and coercing them into sexually abusing themselves on camera. The foundation has recognised a lot of what they are seeing as Category A, the most severe kind of sexual abuse, due to it including penetration with an object. Some of the child victims of this online sexual abuse are as young as 7 years old. For the first time, a snapshot study out today looks into the objects being used, and how they are everyday domestic items that can be found in the household. We hear from Susie Hargreaves, CEO of the Internet Watch Foundation, and CEO of the Marie Collins Foundation, which supports child victims of online abuse, Vicki Green. The story contains content that some listeners may find distressing.She's been on screen in nearly 2,000 different film and TV appearances and yet she may have completely escaped your notice. Now the woman thought to be Britain's most prolific extra - Jill Goldston - has become the actual star of a short film called "Jill, Uncredited". She joins Anita in the studio to talk about her life lived just out of focus behind some of the world's biggest movie stars.It's Children in Need tonight so we thought we'd look at one of the projects it funds. Getaway Girls is a charity which first opened its doors to women and girls in Leeds 35 years ago initially offering girls a safe space to go to make friends and learn new skills to empower them and help grow their confidence. Over the years it has worked to support girls who have experienced difficulties at home from domestic violence, exploitation or sexual abuse to newly arrived refugees. Getaway Girls has received funding from BBC Children in Need since 2010 and this year in partnership with BBC Radio 2 it has a new home thanks to the DIY SOS the Big Build team. Alia Nessa, Operations Manager at Getaway Girls talks about the project.We speak to Judith Kilshaw who was once seen as Britain’s ‘most hated woman'. She caused outrage internationally after she and her husband paid a fee to adopt twin babies in the US. The case led to a change in UK adoption law and now she is speaking out in a new documentary which tells the stories of the three mothers involved. Naomi Angell, head of Adoption, Surrogacy and fertility law unit at Osbornes Law explains how the legal situation has changed.Presenter: Anita Rani Producer: Kirsty StarkeyInterviewed Guest: Susie Hargreaves Interviewed Guest: Vicki Green Interviewed Guest: Jill Goldston Interviewed Guest: Alia Nessa Interviewed Guest: Judith Kilshaw Interviewed Guest: Naomi Angell

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Anita Rani and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Good morning, it's Children in Need Friday. The choir from Getaway Girls, a project in Leeds who've been supported by Children in Need since 2010. Now you may have watched DIY SOS The Big Build where the team helped by Radio 2 and hundreds of volunteers, you incredible volunteers, they built them a brand new building. It was a tearjerker. I'll be finding out more about the Getaway Girls later. And then Jill Goldston, the most famous person you almost certainly couldn't pick out of a lineup. Jill is an extra

and has been in nearly 2,000 films. And now finally, she's the star of her own. She'll be joining me a little bit later. But this morning, I want to hear from you. If you've ever been an extra in anything, on purpose or purely by accident, what's your story? What were you in? What did you do?

Are you a blink and you'll miss me moment in something? Have we seen you on TV or in film? Now is your moment to share your story with the world. Get in touch with me in the usual way. I was an extra. I'm going to tell you. I was an extra in a Richard Curtis, Danny Boyle movie yesterday, actually. Yes, it was very exciting. I thought it was thoroughly convincing.

Obviously, I won't tell you which bit I'm in. You'll just have to watch it and see if you can spot me do get in touch if you've been an extra the text number 8484844 text will be charged at your standard message rate you can also contact us via social media at BBC Woman's Hour you can email me through the website or you can send me a whatsapp message or a voice note to the number 03700 100 444. And then you may remember a very public case of twin American baby girls who were bought by a British couple over the internet in the year 2000. Well, it made international headlines and ultimately led to a change in UK adoption laws. Well, Judith Killshaw and her then husband bought the twins

for $12,000. And Judith will be joining me to talk about what happened and the new three-part Amazon documentary series that tells the gripping story from the perspective of the three mothers involved. And if you'd like to comment on anything you hear on the programme this morning, then our text number, once again, 84844. But first to our main story today, and it covers a very difficult but important subject. We're going to be talking about a new study into the sexual abuse of children online. It's been

carried out by the Internet Watch Foundation, the UK body responsible for finding and removing child sexual abuse from the internet. What you're about to hear will be detailed and in places graphic. Their findings are also shocking and you may find it a distressing listen. We're going to spend about 15 minutes discussing it so if you want to do go away and come back after. The Internet Watch Foundation have been tracking the increasing trend of perpetrators grooming children online and coercing them into sexually abusing themselves on camera. The Foundation has recognised a lot of what they're seeing as Category A, the most severe kind of sexual abuse due to its including penetration with an object. Some of the child victims of this online sexual abuse are as young as seven years old. For the first time, a snapshot study out today looks into the objects being used

and how they are everyday domestic items that can be found in the household. And joining me to talk about it is the CEO of the Internet Watch Foundation, Susie Hargreaves. I'm also joined by Vicky Green, chief executive of the Marie Collins Foundation, which supports child victims of online abuse. Susie, I'm going to come to you first. But before we get into talking about this, let's just understand why it's important for us to talk about this publicly in detail. Well, good morning, Anita. It's very important for us to discuss this particularly in the light of the recently reported independent inquiry into child sexual abuse and the online safety bill which is in

danger of not going through at the moment as these are two things that will really help to make children safer online the iwf is the uk hotline for reporting and removing online child sexual abuse. Last year, we removed 252,000 web pages of child sexual abuse. And 70% of what we removed is now accounted for by internet abuse over the internet, where the perpetrator is not in the room and the child is being tricked or coerced into engaging in these sexual acts and as you said we decided to do a snapshot of this because we think it's absolutely essential now and it ties in with the recommendations of professor alexis j at the independent inquiry to actually speak and say exactly what we see that's not to sense and sensationalize, but to actually do the victims justice, because this is not mild abuse.

So category A sexual abuse of children, as you say, is penetration, it's bestiality, it's sadism. And we saw in a five day period, 900 cases of this type of abuse where children were penetrating themselves in their anus, their vagina, and 75% of those children were aged 11 to 13, and 20%, that's 184 of them, were aged 7 to 10, and 99% of them are girls. And the reason we need to say it as it is, is this could happen to any child from any background, whether in a bedroom domestic setting with a camera enabled device and an internet connection and we have to get the message across to parents and carers to help them learn to keep their children safe online and this study it's important to say isn't just the UK UK, it's global. No, I mean, internet abuse is global.

But bear in mind that actually, sadly, it's a supply and demand situation. So at the last count, the UK National Crime Agency estimated there were 850,000 people in the UK alone who represented a threat to children. So if we can cut down people's demand for this hideous abuse, and this abuse follows these children throughout their lives, if we can actually stop it happening in the first place, and the online safety bill will do a lot to do that because it will require internet companies to keep their platforms safe. But we also need to educate people. Indeed and we're going to bring in Vicky in a moment just to talk about how it does impact children and

follow them through their lives and the parents as well. I was reading the study myself and at times I found it incredibly difficult in fact there were parts of it I couldn't bring myself to read I had to put it down but But like you mentioned, Professor Alexis Jay, who's the chairwoman of the Independent Inquiry, what she has to say about why we need to be this explicit is really interesting because she says, when we're talking about the sexual abuse of children, it does no good to victims to sanitise what's being done

or to shy away from talking about the reality of what we see because without being gratuitous, as you say, are overly sensational. We need to show the true scale and the nature of the problem so Susie how new is this form of online sexual abuse and are you are you shocked as an organization as to what you've discovered well it's we started seeing this type of abuse in 2012 and it's just grown year on year and it's increased year on year so you know i'm i'm sad to say to some extent we're not shocked because our analysts are trained to deal with this but the reason we actually decided to do this particular snapshot was there was a video that one of our analysts saw which i'm not actually going to describe today because it's very nasty and violent

and we thought actually we need to get the message out to tell people exactly what we're talking about. This is not children just dressed in inappropriate clothing, and it's not a situation where children are not re-victimised when people look at this type of horrible, nasty abuse. It's the most heinous type of abuse. And I would say that every single child is vulnerable, whatever their background, because a seven that every single child is vulnerable,

whatever their background, because a seven-year-old is vulnerable. So we need to do whatever we can to keep children safe online. And that means we need to help parents and carers understand, you know, ways of helping them to keep those children safe online, to make sure they're not put in these vulnerable positions, because they can never be blamed for this they are the victims how how are they even communicating with the children well you know children are online all the time and one of the things we can't say is where the original video emanated from because the the perpetrators will capture that video they'll wipe it clean of any identifying indicators of the original platform it was on and then it makes its way onto a child sexual abuse website which is where our analysts find it and then it's shared amongst perpetrators now children will be online

they'll be on all sorts of networks platforms different many many who are underage and should not be on social media platforms. You shouldn't be on them if you're under 13. And I'm sure a lot of parents don't know that. So and they're easy pickings. They talk to strangers, not because it's their fault. They literally are flattered, encouraged, coerced. How are they? What kind of language is used? Well, you know, they're told they're beautiful they should be a model they you know you know they're you know and you just look at these images and these these videos of children and they're 11 years old and you think they're not

physically or emotionally mature enough to understand what is happening to them at this moment in time and they certainly have no idea that this is going to follow them around and actually they're easy picking so a perpetrator might try and talk to 100 children and get lucky with one i'm going to bring vicky in here because i'm sure there are lots of people listening carers parents who are feeling very shocked incredibly concerned um by hearing what you've had to say suzy vicky whaticky, what are the behaviours to look out for, for a child who might be being abused online? That's actually a very interesting and difficult question to answer

because responsibility always rests with the groomer, with the person who is doing the abuse. And they are very skilled at ensuring that there are no indicators. So they will create a secrecy. They'll be encouraging the in-person to not say anything to anybody. So the reality is there may not be any indicators. But what is very important is that parents, carers, all of us around a child, create the environment where we can have the conversation.

Conversations are key. Show an interest in what your child is doing online. And use the normal things that we see in life. Like, oh, I heard on Women's Hour yesterday that this sort of thing happens. If it ever happens to you or anybody is asking you to do something you feel uncomfortable about you can't talk to me i mean and vicky we need to take this seriously but we don't want to terrify everyone listening so how concerned should parents of children who are online be no it should be concerned and i think this is the whole point

of bringing this into the public domain and speaking about what is really happening. There is a tendency to minimise online child sexual abuse, to be using language like selfies, to be using language like self-generated, as a way as if the child is the one who is doing it. It's their choice. The power is with the perpetrator. So we don't want parents running around removing tech from children, but we want them to be aware that there is a real danger out there. So they need to be talking to their children about how to stay safe online. Talking about language, I just want to bring Susie back in. abuse where the perpetrator wasn't in the room we this this term came up so basically just to distinguish it from contact abuse but actually it does imply as ricky said that in some way the child is responsible right

but you know that they actively participating in the generation of this material and in fact they're not they're just being tricked and coerced and encouraged to do that so we are trying to sort of move away from that and just call child sexual abuse child sexual abuse because that's what it is yeah i mean one of the things i wanted to just pick up on what vicky said was that actually you know the really important thing here is not to demonize the internet the internet has been a lifesaver for many children particularly during lockdown it's it's given them education entertainment connectivity but i would say the same thing applies to internet safety that applies to any way in which you keep your child safe there are certain things you do not let your seven-year-old do and actually you have to have age-appropriate supervision now that doesn't that doesn't take the blame away from the perpetrators.

As Vicky says, they are the ones ultimately to blame. But we need to do everything we can to keep our kids safe online. So if they're in the bedrooms, you need to know what they're doing online. Vicky, some people may be listening to this and questioning how this is able to happen in a domestic setting. Does this show just how easy it is for a child to be manipulated online? Yes and it also shows the skill of the perpetrator and it also shows the importance of conversation and as Susie is saying to be supervising your child and I'm not saying following them around, I'm not saying tracking them and if you were to take them to the park,

you keep an eye on them, particularly a seven-year-old. So if they're suddenly disappearing up to their room for long times or they're spending a long time in the bathroom, do ask the question, what are you doing? Are you okay?

Is everything okay? And be mindful that there could be, there may not be, but there could be something going on that you're not aware of. And Vicky, you support children who have been through abuse. Is it difficult to get children to come forward when they've experienced something like this? And how do you get the language right? Oh, you use a non-victim blaming language,

but yes, it is very difficult. If you, and Mary Collins herself talks about the moment of your greatest humiliation is captured for all to see. And that whole bit about it being recorded, distributed, you don't know how many people have seen it. It's too big a thing to be thinking about. So we don't want to think about it so for young people it can be they do and can recover with the right help and that's the hope message we want people to get out we want to get out there don't run away from this if you are worried about your child reach out reach out to us reach out to other organisations and we will help you have those conversations.

What's the lasting impact on the children? Phenomenal. Particularly if it goes on for a long time without it being detected. So, but as I said, children can recover. We need to be having the conversations with them and help them on that recovery journey and it's not a quick fix it's complex of course complex for the whole family because you're with you're working with the victims but i'm sure the parents are also traumatized by the event

we we do an awful lot of work in supporting the parents because the parents are in many cases the most important component for the child so helping the parent deal with their initial response when they discover their child has been abused is really important that what they're feeling the grief they're feeling because I often say that the primary job of a parent is to protect their child and to feel that you have failed to do that, particularly in your own home, can be devastating for the parents. So we spend a lot of time working with the parents, helping them to understand their feelings so they can then understand their child's feelings. So let's help some of the parents listening now and giving them some advice about how you can approach talking to your children about the internet to prevent them being targeted in the first place. I would say don't let the internet, don't let technology be a barrier

to being interested in what your children are doing on a day-to-day basis. Actually ask them what they're doing, sit alongside them when they're playing games, understand with them the world that they're entering into. And one of the things in this report that really struck me was that case study of the young person who was performing for likes. Of course she was performing for likes. We all like to be validated. So have the conversation about what it is your child likes to do, what it is that makes them feel good and caution them that not everybody out there has their best interests at heart, but you as a parent do. And you understand them suzy what about the tech

firms and the websites who are hosting this this content are they doing enough to stop child abuse being published on their sites well they do a lot already so um for instance we have what's called a hash list so it's a list of digital fingerprints of known child sexual abuse images we have currently one and a half million of those on our list and the internet companies deploy that across their platforms tiktok instagram do to ensure that known images are not uploaded so they do have uh things they do but they don't do enough because we none of us do enough and that's one of the reasons why we have to bring in the online safety bill so that this will put a legal requirement on internet companies to screen and to ensure that their platforms are kept as clean as possible of child sexual abuse and to do everything

in their power to ensure that this content is not shared freely on the internet. So yes, they've got an enormous role to play. But that's why the government have to because they've got an enormous role to play but that's why the government have to because they've got to bring this bill forward but i would also say that to uh back up what vicky said we have a checklist for parents and carers called and you can find it at talk.iwf.org.uk and it's got a list of really simple things to do for parents and carers to have those conversations and keep children safe online. And the thing we found out in our research is that one meaningful conversation can make all the difference. So for us, we would say it's a combination of factors. It's the education piece, it's tech companies stepping up, doing more, the government putting this bill through legislation

so that we can ensure that we can make the UK the safest place in the world to be online. Well, we have had a statement from the Home Office. A spokesperson said, child sexual abuse is a horrific crime against the most vulnerable in our society. We're leaving no stone unturned to pursue offenders and keep children safe online in our communities. The online safety bill is a key measure in this regard as it will ensure companies to take proactive action to keep children safe from sexual abuse and exploitation on their platforms. Susie and Vicky, thank you for joining me to talk about this this morning.

And let me inform you all that there are support links on our website for anyone concerned with what they've heard today. 84844 is the number to text. And we have had a message from someone saying, my daughter, 12, was a victim of this type of online abuse this time last year. The abuser contacted her on a website, which she was encouraged to go on by children at school.

As the abuse escalated, they encouraged her to include her baby sibling. At that point, she was brave enough to tell me what was happening. And we reported it to the police. They were very kind, made it clear there was nothing they could do we will never get over it it's a lot uh for people to be processing this morning um and if you would like to email us with your thoughts on what you are hearing on the program um 84844 is the number to text you can email us via our website and like said, if you'd like some more support and advice, then go to our website.

There will be links put up there. Now, I'm joined in the studio by a woman who you could have watched on screen in nearly 2,000 films and TV appearances, and yet you'd probably walk past her in a street without noticing her. Jill Goldston is thought to be the UK's most prolific extra and has taken part in films starring some of the world's biggest names,

including David Bowie, Warren Beatty and Jack Nicholson. Well, finally, Jill is now a star of a film in her own right. British filmmaker Anthony Ng has made a short film called Jill Uncredited, which brings her moments on screen into focus and premiered at the BFI Film Festival this autumn. Jill. Jill. Hello. You may have been in nearly 2,000 films.

First time on Woman's Hour. First time on Woman's Hour, yes. Welcome, welcome, welcome. They don't need extras on radio programmes usually. We need you here today. I read about you and then I watched the film and I was so moved watching this 20 minute film dedicated just to you. It is strangely moving. How did you feel watching it? Because it's just shots after

shots of you. Yes. I felt it was somebody else and it was me as a young girl and me getting older through the years. And I found it, I thought I would hate it. And then I suddenly became fascinated by it and thought how could he have looked through nearly 2000 films just to find me, just this tiny walkthrough shot, background. It was incredible. He must have had a great time spotting you. Oh, sure not.

Well, we're going to go back in history. We're going to go to the very first time you were an extra. How did this all happen? When did you first become an extra? How did it start? Well, I started off as a dancer. At 12 years old, I was working. I was a Beams Breezy Babe at the Chiswick Empire.

And I sort of grew up in sort of show business, but I never wanted to become a star I didn't want to become an act an actress so I sort of fell into it through my dancing work and people were doing extra work and it sounded incredible and my first thing was Emergency Wall 10, which they did live, which was incredible and in black and white. And then you turned it into a career. Because I loved it. I really loved it. I didn't want to become anything more, but I did love working

and I liked all the variety that went with working. So every day was different. Every day was a different setup. Every day you were going to different places, meeting different people. So it was fantastic. A lot of hanging around? What's the day like? Oh, mostly hanging around. Sometimes fit to Victoria, I hung around for three days and didn't do anything. And in the end was sat at a table and for 10 minutes so that's how it was so what made you keep going back then what was the pleasure in it i love people watching i loved the whole setup

and it was very glamorous you met very glamorous people yeah and the most more famous the star the more then weren't so much nicer it was the wannabes that wasn't so nice to you. This is what we're going to get into now. This is where we're getting all the juicy gossip. Oh, no. Because there's people watching and there's watching A-list celebs, like Hollywood actors doing their thing. So you have been on screen with some absolute legends.

Let's talk about some of your favourites. Who were the nicest ones to work with? I loved Warren Beatty. I loved Timothy Dalton. I found Madonna really interesting. What were you in? What movies were you in with them? Warren Beatty, Reds, Timothy Dalton, Scarlet and Madonna in Evita. Oh, how wonderful. Do you have re-travelled much then with it? Oh, I've been really sort of mostly all around the world because they want somebody they could rely on. I was going to say, you'd think they'd pick extras from the country they were in.

Oh, they do. Yes, they do. And they're much cheaper as well. But, yeah, sometimes they just want somebody they can rely on if it's to be a waitress and serve drinks or just small things that can really ruin a production if you're not with it. It's because you're the A-list of extras, would you say? I don't know. Yes, I think I just did more sort of work than anybody else because I was so keen to do it. Do you have much to do with the big stars when you're on set? No. I mean, it's a real no-no. You do not accost the stars. But if they speak to you or you're doing a scene with them,

and then it just evolves naturally. But you'd never, ever go up to a star and certainly would not ever take a photograph or ask for an audio well you never tempted just like big up your part kind of move your chair a bit no never ever no camera because if you got on camera a lot then you didn't get asked back the next day so if you were invisible then they could use you the next day so many of our listeners are getting in touch with their own experiences of being an extra. I'm going to share some of them with you.

Ruth has got in touch to say, I was an extra in Elizabeth, The Golden Age. Oh, such a good movie, which was filmed in Cambridge in 2006 with quite a number of takes of a scene on the bridge of size at St. John's College in which Anthony Babington, played by a young edgy redman, was being chased over the bridge. sighs at St John's College in which Anthony Babington played by a young edgy

redman was being chased over the bridge he had to shove people aside and each time he had to retake the scene he apologized for treading on my foot to be honest Ruth says I didn't mind no he didn't mind that's so sweet it doesn't feel like work do you get paid well you got paid very well in the um the gu, you got paid cash. And even if you were freezing cold all day and it was really boring, if you drove home at night, you had the cash on the seat next to you. But in the end, it went to checks and then it went into your bank account in the later days because the world evolved and that's how it was. How's the important question?

How was the catering? Did you get fed well? The catering was fantastic. Yes, really. You had to wait till the stars were served first. But really, the catering was the thing. And especially in American movies. What's one of the most shocking things you've seen a star do?

I don't know, really. I don't think any of them's done anything very shocking. I saw Madonna wanting a seat and somebody was sitting in her seat and didn't move. And I thought, come on, really, get it together, move. But no, they didn't. And she didn't complain. And I thought that was a tick really yeah okay more more of our listeners extra experiences hi I was an extra in a film with Brian Blessed and Oliver Reed and Wolf from Gladiators that classic movie I broke my foot on set and Brian signed my cast when I came back on set the next day to watch filming as my father was doing some of the horse work he then got kicked in the head by one of the horses so neither of us got out of it unscathed and that's from bruce um oh no it was called the bruce in 1996 and that's from charlotte coley from hayward's heath clarissa says i was in the book launch scene in the first bridget jones's diary that is a good scene there's a lot of cameos in that with colinth, René and Hugh

Grant were all there chatted to Salman Rushdie too she says yeah um I'm the lady in the pink dress I'm glad you're telling us because we're going to watch out for you the lady in the pink dress I didn't realize René Zellweger was not English as she stayed in character we had to pretend to speak as the actors needed silence while they acted the scenes. Yes. Good fun. Yes. No, great fun. Great fun. Talking quietly or just in silence, opening your mouth? Sometimes you had to talk, but mostly just opening your mouth with no sound coming out and looking amused or laughing or crying

or whatever it called for, but in silence, yes. And do you just say rhubarb, rhubarb, rhubarb? No, you sort of, I try and think of a little scene or talk about the weather, but silently. I've been an extra on many things, but most fabulous was Poldark. The costumes, hair and makeup were out of this world. I filmed with all the leads and could easily be seen in several shots when it was screened, including a close-up.

It was one of the most fabulous things I've ever done. And the excitement then of watching yourself, especially if you get a close-up. I never watch myself. You've never watched yourself? No, I don't like watching myself. No. You never watch your films back?

No, never. No. Jill, you've been back? No, never. No. Jill, you've been in nearly 2,000 films and you've not seen any of them. I have seen some of them, but I mean, I've never been to the cinema or on television and purposely turned it on because it's very embarrassing to see yourself.

You think, oh gosh, why did I look like that? Why didn't my hair go differently to that? Or whatever. I don't know. I've never been sort of that vain sort of thing. Isn't that funny? Oh gosh, I'm gorgeous. Well, but isn't that funny though?

I mean, it's your job, you're on screen, you're dressed up, you're in costume, but even you will scrutinise you at the back of the set. Yes. Like, my hair's out of place. Yes, yes. And I think, why did I do that?

Or why didn't I do that? Or I don't know. Why did I not lift my eyebrow at that point? I mean, you are blink and you miss it kind of moments. Yes. But that's so fascinating that you will scrutinise even those brief moments. Oh, yes, yes.

So if you couldn't watch yourself back how was it watching 20 minutes of just you I thought I would find it horrendous because it's what 20 minutes just of me and and on a screen on a film screen and I was in the front row but I found it after after it started, strangely fascinating. And I thought, oh gosh, I was so young. And then, oh, I remember doing that. And I remember sort of all the films I did and all the funny bits or where I went and what happened that day and who I was with, friends.

It was like a sort of a repertory company. Yeah, I think it's the most flattering thing to have happened to somebody, really. He's actually collated your work and put it together. I was astounded. Absolutely astounded. Turned you into a star of your own movie. Oh, I wouldn't say that. Of your own movie.

But I thought it'd be, you know, an amazing thing to have happened. I didn't think it'd ever come to fruition. And now it has. And Anthony did such a fantastic job on that. Are you still working as an extra today? Not really. If something really interesting comes up, I will. But other than that, no, I think all those years in the business was enough, really. But, you know, I'm open to offers. Who knows? She's always working.

Extras are always working. Jill Goldston, it's been a pleasure speaking to you. Thank you so much. Thank you so much. Now, it's Children in Need tonight, so we thought we'd look at one of the projects it funds. Getaway Girls is a charity which opened its jaws to women and girls in Leeds 35 years ago,

initially offering girls a safe space to go to make friends and learn new skills to empower them and help them grow in confidence. Over the years, with funding from Children in Need, it now works to support girls who've experienced difficulties at home from domestic violence, exploitation or sexual abuse to newly arrived refugees. Well, Getaway Girls has received funding from BBC Children in Need since 2010. And this year, it partnered with BBC Radio 2 in order to create a new home, thanks to the team behind DIY SOS and the Big Build. It was beautiful. And I wept myself when I watched it. It's on iPlayer. If you haven't seen it, you can catch up with it. I'm joined now by Alia Nessa, who's the operations manager at Getaway Girls.

Welcome to Woman's Hour, Alia. How did you feel when you watched the programme? Oh, I was absolutely... It was fantastic to see. I was really taken aback by it all, the whole experience. It was a fantastic opportunity, working with everybody from Radio 2 to Nick Knoll's team. It was fantastic.

It really brought tears to my eyes, actually, towards the end, yes. I mean, tell me about Getaway Girls. We just heard the girls singing in the choir there, but how was the project first started? Yeah, well, the project's obviously with 35 years this year and it's just the icing on the cake this build for us um it started initially in 1987 um and it was set up for really the word itself getaway girls to encourage girls to get away on outdoor activities and education but over the years it's changed it's um the needs of the

young girls and women have changed and it's um expanded the services um we've got funding from different funding um organizations um and children need obviously funded for the last 12 years so it's opened up doors for the young um the girls and the young women and it did that for you didn't it you went and joined them in 1987 as you were 13 years old what took you to the getaway girls well um i was obviously 13 just a teenager um i wasn't so confident back in the days and then it just made me want to join them. I went on my first residential with them and I got involved with the outdoor activities. First time to go on, do abseiling and rock climbing and meet other young, like-minded young girls and build relationship with them and friendships.

And it just went on from there, really. And I've been involved over the years with the different campaigns and events and kept in touch with the organisation and then my own daughters 22 and 13 also joined Getaway Girls and got involved with the activities. I mean what it was in 1987 to what it is now must be completely different and also the needs of what young girls need now right yes there's a a lot more challenging work now since that time and the need has changed a lot of the girls have a lot more one-to-one support they join the groups there's an element of serious work that goes on the long-term work that we do on the one-to-one basis but then there's an element of the peer support, meeting like-minded girls that you can meet in a safe space and be creative and talk to other young girls

that are going through similar things in life. And it's just about opportunities and fun, really, joining activities, the holiday activities, the creative side of the arts and getting involved in podcasts and making music. And getting them, like you say, getting them out of their homes and creating support and sisterhood is what came across for me. The sort of peer to peer support. Absolutely, yes. You know, young people are facing a lot of, again, challenges.

They've got low self-esteem and just meeting somebody who's had that lived experience someone's comes from a similar background from yourself you can really open up and have that dialogue have that conversation and support one another it is that it's about sisterhood it's home from home getaway girls come and meet others get a cheese toasty have a cup of tea, and just chill out, really. I'm there, cheese toast, a cup of tea, happy days. And tell me about where you are based in Leeds and what the specific needs of that community are. Yes, we have been, I mean, we are based in a very deprived neighbourhood

of Leeds, you know, Seacroft, and then we were in Hare Hills. It's just literally up the road, and there's loads of needs, there's a challenge in the area for young people in terms of, you know, getting on to find a job and education, you know, and where we're based now, the new build, that's a new community for us, it's going to open doors for the young girls and the women that live there, so they're going to hopefully come through our doors doors and we're going to reach more girls in that area, as well as the existing girls that have been coming to Getaway Girls over the many years. And your building, I'm sure people who've watched it will agree and those who haven't watched it

will be able to see when they watch it back on iPlayer. The building is incredible considering where you started, like you say, a terraced house in Hare Hills, to this incredible facility, purpose-built, with an outside space, huge, beautiful social room, lots of offshoot rooms. It's perfect. And a multimedia room with access to equipment and computers and a creche. How important are all of those?

The build is incredible. It's going to really give the opportunity to work with a lot more girls and open up more opportunities. The facilities are incredible. The creche room is going to be great because we do work with teenage mothers and it's great to have that creche for the the young ones that come in and when we do the work with the one-to-one with the and the group work and also having the multimedia room is going to be fantastic because the girls have got so much talent so much potential to be

creative to produce their own music um you know do podcasts in the future and the it is i say gateway to the knowledge and you know technology getting women, more women into technology careers. When they might not have access to computers at home. That's right, yes. And the pandemic showed that when we were working with women that not everybody does have an access to the laptop, iPad or computer. So it's, yes, opening doors for the women to come and access those facilities at that fantastic new build.

I mean, you were 13 when you walked through their doors in 1987. Not that I want to age you, but I just have. Can you believe that you're still working with them now? Do you know, it's been a fantastic journey for me. And, you know, I'm so proud, you know, to be in the Getaway Girls. And now, you know, working with Getaway Girls, my passion, and I see other girls come through there and they're going to do fantastic things. You know, we've got girls who have come through challenge and barriers, but they've gone through

fantastic things, gone on to do law degrees and medicine and creative arts and marketing. And they come back, and the beauty of it is they come back and they support the charity. They've come back and want to do workshops with the young girls and give back and pay support element of it. It's fantastic. Is that why you went back to give back? Yeah, I mean, I've been involved over the years.

And yeah, absolutely. I'm really passionate having girls myself and seeing them where they are today. They're happy. We want the girls to be empowered. We want them to have a self-risk, aspiration, self-esteem and be resilient and be happy in whatever they choose to do in life. It's a good message. Alia, thank you very much for speaking to me this morning. You're welcome. Nice to speak to you. Lots of you getting in touch with your extra stories.

I was an extra in a thriller, a murder victim, body discovered in a grave. I had to climb into a coffin lid on and dirt shoveled on. I always wonder about people who have to play murder victims in whodunnits and whatnot. Anita, I was a zombie lollipop lady. This is great. In a Zomcom called Doghouse back in 2009.

I was affectionately called Lolly by the other zombirds, as we were called. And Sharon says, I was an extra in Lolly by the other Zomberds, as we were called. And Sharon says, I was an extra in a low budget independent Scottish film. The filmmaker put up an ad in my local supermarket and I responded. It was set in a local restaurant and I was at dinner along with two others. I was warned not to eat the unappealing looking food as it sat around for hours under the lights. Needless to say, I wasn't tempted. I pushed that salad around the plate for hours trying not to giggle at the ridiculousness of it all. Good experience though. Now, my next guest is Judith Killshaw. She was one of the women at the centre

of a story which led to changes in UK law around adoption. Back in 2000, Judith and her then-husband Alan wanted to have another child biologically, but this was not possible for them. They instead used the internet to adopt twin baby girls from America and paid $12,000, the equivalent of £8,200, to an agency that promised them a child. They went public with the story and their experience of going abroad and using an agency to adopt their twin girls. However, a scandal emerged after it was revealed that another couple had also adopted the same set of twins via the internet and the same agency. Words such as kidnapping and baby broker were used by the media to describe what had happened. The case caused public anger and criticism about the way adoption had taken

place and as a result social services removed the children. After failed court battles and attempts from the Killshaws and the other mothers to gain custody, the twin girls were eventually sent back to America. Well 20 years on Judith and the other mothers who were involved in the scandal have spoken out about what they went through in a new documentary called Three Mothers, Two Babies and a Scandal. Naomi Engle is the solicitor who specialises in domestic and inter-country adoption and we'll be speaking to her shortly. But first, Judith Killshaw joins me now. Judith, welcome to the fascinating documentary. Why did you agree to be part of it and to once again tell the story

and put yourself out there in the media glare? Right. Well, I met the people that were shooting the documentary and production team and it was mainly women. And I think this story now is from a woman's perspective. And it's strange because men have different perspectives to women. And I thought this was refreshing and it would do a very good storyline

on everybody's part, Trond and Vicky Allen. And may I also add that Vicky Allen, the Allens did not adopt the girls. They hadn't been adopted. They'd been placed there, but the 60 days cooling off period that Tranda could have got the girls back. Okay, we're getting into the detail of it, which we will do, so that everyone listening who hasn't seen the programme or doesn't remember what happened will understand.

But essentially there are three mothers in this there's tranda who is the the birth mother who had the twins who then went through an adopt an agency money was exchanged with another mother vicky allen who had the children temporarily tranda then took the children away from her and you and your husband then husband also paid for the children and they eventually ended up in the UK. Paid the adoption agency. Paid the adoption agency. And the documentary is fascinating because it's in three parts

and each part looks at it from the perspective of a different mother. Let's go back 22 years, Judith, what took you to the internet in the first place to find a child? Well, actually it was my daughter that went on the internet. I'm not very internet savvy, but being a young person, she was and she went and she actually found a couple of adoption agencies. Don't forget, in America, adoption is quite a regular thing. You know, it's not sort of, you can go in the yellow pages and look for adoption agencies.

It's different. Yes. And it was different back then. I mean, this, what happened with you changed the UK laws, which we'll come on to. So your daughter got you onto the internet. You wanted another child. You couldn't have one. Yeah, I didn't set out,

it had to be a baby and I didn't set out for twins. I was quite willing to take someone up to an age where they hadn't sort of started school and sort of become sort of used to where they live. I just set out to help somebody. That's what I set out for. What took you all the way to the America then? Well, I asked my MP what countries were legal to be adopted from. And it was places like Australia, Sweden, places you wouldn't really think of. And America was on there.

So that's why I went to America. And did you ever feel uncomfortable trying to find a baby in this way back then? Not particularly. No, because it was all legal. It was all above board. So I don't see why I would feel uncomfortable. So what happened? It's not like I was trolling around the streets looking for babies.

Just the internet? My daughter was on the internet. Your daughter was on the internet. So what happened? How old were the girls when you got them? I think they were about two months old. And then how old were they when they were taken away from you? And why were they taken away from you?

They were probably about four months old. And why were they taken? Oh, well, the press really. That's why. Tell me more, because you went public with the story, didn't you? And there was a media circus around you. You were really in the eye of the storm. Well, my partner then has now passed over.

He went to the sun. I wouldn't have gone to the sun. Why did he go to the newspaper? What did he? Because I think he wanted to warn people that if you do international adoption, watch out for the pitfalls. You know, he didn't want anyone else to be sort of dragged through it. He thought he'd been ripped off by Tina, basically.

But what happened was Tina is the woman behind the... who was the broker in all of this, who doesn't actually appear in the documentary. But by going public, what it did was create public outrage towards the story, which you weren't expecting. Looking back, can you understand? If people had stopped and listened to the whole story, the true story, I don't see how it would be so outrageous.

It was just like the Sun's headline set the ball rolling and everyone just followed the Sun. What was that headline? Something like, tracks and chased across America. Looking back, can you understand why people were outraged? Not particularly. How much do you think you're... I can sit here and lie to you,

but I don't see why I would be thinking that because there was nothing illegal. It was all done above board. The children were well looked after. They were well looked after by the Owlands. They were well looked after by Trondheim and those as well. So why would I be sort of on that?

And so you'd had these babies for two months and then they were taken away from you? Yeah. What was that like? Well, not very nice at all, really. You know, if you're going to take children, take them on grounds. But I don't really know what grounds they took them on, to be quite honest with you. Well, the mother wanted them back, didn't she?

Well, she didn't get them back, did she? So if they took them on them grounds, why didn't she get them back? Well, I mean, it's a long and complicated story, which is discussed throughout the documentary but um it became such a huge international story that you ended up one of the moments which really i mean it's so fascinating to watch was when you ended up being on oprah with the other mother vicky allen who wanted to also adopt the children who claimed that she had well she had given money to uh the the the woman, the broker. Yeah, well, that was quite bizarre. But to tell you the truth, she was sort of faxing every day for us to go on to Oprah's show.

And it got that much, I used to ignore it and not answer it. And in the end, I thought, oh, I'll just go on it to shut her up because she won't go away, this woman, so I'll just do it. I'm going to bring Naomi Angel in on this, who's a solicitor who specialises in domestic and inter-country adoption. Naomi, you remember the case at the time. What do you remember feeling about it and why was there so much public outrage?

Well, I did follow this case quite closely because I was very involved in media work as the situation developed and there was massive press media attention. And as you say, it was both national and international. But inside, as a children's lawyer for many years, in the middle of this chaos, there were the heartbreaking things, whether the two small and very vulnerable babies were caught in the eye of the storm. Now, I actually don't want to dwell too much on the events and facts of this case. But as a lawyer, I want to look and explain some of the legal issues that it threw up.

Yes, please. And what changes they've now been. Absolutely. What did it throw up? Because it wasn't illegal what Judith had done at the time. Well, the law on inter-country adoption at that time was very hazy. There had been an act passed in 1999, which was the first dedicated piece of law for inter-country adoption. But it didn't really deal with a lot of the issues.

There were illegalities that you shouldn't get an independent social work report, which is what the Killshaws had done. It had to be done, all adoptions in this country had to be done through an adoption agency. And there was law that if a child was brought into this country, adopters have to inform the local authority very soon after they get here. So it was not a placement which was not known about with all the potential risks of that. My experience of US adoptions in many states at that time was that there was very little, if no, regulation, and particularly of the agencies and other people involved in the arrangements for these adoptions. It was a market.

A lot of money was passing hands. And then this all happened on the internet. The internet really blurred things further. Of course, we all know that there's no regulation of the internet. And it was a landmark case in regards to having to update the adoption law in the UK. What happened? Well, it certainly was a landmark case as there was so much media

attention. But actually, it was an example of the pitfalls and problems thrown up by law on inter-country adoption at that time. I think this case was the most extreme one that I'd heard of or been involved with. But it threw up the problems of and risks of unregulated inter-country adoption. So in this country, the major piece of legislation that was brought in was the Adoption and Children Act 2002. And this brought in a law that clarified that independent social work reports were not acceptable, were not lawful. And certainly the judge who heard the case as to whether the children should be returned to the US said that this was a shallow, superficial and inadequate report. Checks weren't even done of the authorities to see if these if the kilshares were and as far as the as there was also a very important piece of law which said that

where inter-country adoption is involved people in this country doing it must be properly assessed by an English adoption agency as to whether they're suitable to adopt. And this is a rigorous process for inter-country adoption now. It takes up to a year and is a rigorous and robust procedure. So basically there was no rigorous procedures involved before. So what has to happen now then? I mean, also, if I can just mention in the in the u.s which was far less regulated than here

um the u.s joined the hay convention in 2008 they resisted doing so up till now and this this convention oh dear was sorry judith judith's having a it's okay we'll just let judith um put herself on mute. That would be quite... Just while she's coughing, that's good. Sorry, yes, please. So the Hague Convention established safeguards internationally to prevent sale, traffic clean and adoption of children. And that adoption should only take place in the best interests of the children. So now an adoption between the UK and US would have to be by a Hay Convention adoption.

Yeah, I mean, it is a fascinating documentary to watch. Naomi, thank you for speaking to us. Judith, thank you. All three parts are available to watch on Amazon. That's it from me. Join me tomorrow for Weekend Woman's Hour. Oh, oh no, I have, I've got a minute to go. I've got a minute to go.

I'm coming out prematurely. No, let's get back to the programme. Thank you, no, I have. I've got a minute to go. I've got a minute to go. I'm coming out prematurely. No, let's get back to the program. Thank you, Naomi, though. Thank you for talking to me. And thank you, Judith. Lots of you getting in touch with your stories about being extras in films. Jennifer says, hello there. I was a hockey stick waving schoolgirl from a train and running screaming along a station platform

in Great Centurion's Train Robbery in about 1968. Apart from girls from my convent school, the film starred, amongst others, Frankie Howard, Reg Varney and Bernard Cribbins and Portland Mason.

We all loved time out of school, but of all the most memorable food, most memorable was the food in my 70s now, but your programme item today brought back memories, and we're glad about that. I was an extra on First Night with Sean Connery and Richard Gere. It was filmed on the grounds of a nuclear power station by a lake in Wales.

I turned up and immediately had my hair cut into a Norman Soldier Bob style. Oh, dear. Thank you for joining me until tomorrow. Thank you. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. I'm Gabriel Gatehouse and we're back with the Coming Storm podcast from BBC Radio 4 and World Service. As Americans vote in the midterms, their democracy faces its first real test since the tumultuous aftermath of the 2020 election. What happened to that dark energy?

The QAnon conspiracy theory about how a cabal of satanic paedophiles had stolen the election. All of this is black magic, ladies and gentlemen. That's morphed. A new diabolical enemy has emerged. Your community will consider all of you groomers. And a new deep state plot. I'm like, oh my gosh, the regime is straight up coming down on this. Listen to The Coming Storm on BBC Sounds.

I'm Sarah Trelevan, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth.

How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.