Woman's Hour - Jill Scott - European Champion; Disabled parents; Salma Hayek Pinault

Episode Date: February 10, 2023

Anita is joined by the European Champion and Queen of the Jungle Jill Scott. Jill is one of the most decorated footballers in the country and after announcing her retirement from the sport last year she's turned her attention to the next generation. Today she is opening a new football pitch in her hometown in South Tyneside and tells Anita what she wants the Lionesses' legacy to be. The gang-rape of a woman in Islamabad, the capital of Pakistan, sparked protests yesterday with women calling out the country’s ‘rape epidemic’. The 24-year-old woman was walking with a male colleague in the city’s largest park at 8pm last week when she was attacked and raped by two armed men. The police have said that investigations were ongoing but in a statement warned people to avoid unlit areas of the park in the evening. We hear from Aisha Sarwari, columnist and co-founder Women’s Advancement Hub based in Islamabad and Caroline Davies, the BBC's Pakistan CorrespondentSalma Hayek Pinault is a Mexican American actress, director and producer who broke barriers in the 90’s as one of the first Latina actresses to establish a successful career in Hollywood, appearing in several Robert Rodriguez films including From Dusk Til Dawn. She was Oscar-nominated for her role in Frida, about the life of Mexican artist Frida Kahlo, a film which she also produced. Now she is starring opposite Channing Tatum in Magic Mike’s Last Stand, which perhaps surprisingly, is set mostly in a London theatre. Salma joins Anita in the Woman’s Hour studio to talk about being the strong female lead, and power dynamics in Hollywood.Being a parent for the first time is challenging for anyone. But when you’re a disabled parent, it brings with it many more complexities, including discrimination from society and medical professionals alike. Eliza Hull, an Australian musician and disabled parent, realised that there was no positive literature around being a disabled parent – so she created it herself. ‘We’ve Got This’ is an anthology of stories from disabled parents about how they’ve overcome challenges to become parents, and how much they love it. We hear from Eliza herself alongside one of the authors, Nina Tame.Presenter: Anita Rani Producer: Kirsty StarkeyInterviewed Guest: Jill Scott Interviewed Guest: Aisha Sarwari Interviewed Guest: Caroline Davies Interviewed Guest: Salma Hayek Pinault Interviewed Guest: Eliza Hull Interviewed Guest: Nina Tame

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Anita Rani and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Good morning, welcome to Friday's Woman's Hour. We have a star-studded line-up on the programme today. Football legend and Queen of the Jungle, Jill Scott, will be telling us all about how she's turning her attention to the next generation of female footballers by opening a football pitch in her hometown of South Tyneside. And the Woman's Hour studio got a sprinkling of Hollywood stardust when Salma Hayek Pino popped by for a cuppa and a natter.

But first, this morning, we want to hear about the teacher you'd like to be reunited with. There are photos today of the Duchess of Cornwall bumping into one of her former teachers from St Andrew's Prep School and she looks overjoyed and is pictured hugging him. So who is the teacher you would most like to be reunited with to give them a hug, shake their hand, say thank you to or even stand in front of to say you thought I'd amount to nothing, but take a look at me now. Just to make them see how wrong they were. So let's hear about those significant teachers from your childhood and what made them so special. What mark did they make in your life, good or bad?

I'm going to give a shout out to Mrs Bird, my English teacher who actively encouraged my imagination and crucially never told me to stop talking, unlike many others. And well, words, Mrs Bird, have served me well. So thank you. And a few of you have already got in touch via the Twittersphere. Jane Jackson says, Mr Bob Lewis, my A-level English lit teacher. We called him Penfold because he looked like the character of Danger Mouse. He was very small, but a giant of a man he was with the written word.

And he inspired the dullest of teenagers when he spoke. Loved him. And Sani says, my mum, who was also my teacher for three years. She was warm, caring, funny, dedicated and included everyone. She got results too without any strong arm tactics. And she was the teacher the kids with troubles would go to. Even now, former pupils of hers keep in touch. Hashtag be kind and inclusive.

So who is the teacher you would most like to meet and why? What did they do for you? Get in touch with us. The text number 84844. You can also email us via the website or if you'd like to send me a WhatsApp or a voice note. It's 03700 100 444. Plus on the programme today, we'll be talking to two women about their experiences as disabled mums in an ableist world that text number once again eight four eight four four

let's hear about your teachers but first it would be fair to say my next guest had a very good year last year ending 2022 as a european champion and queen of the jungle. That's right. I am, of course, talking about the one and only Jill Scott, one of the most decorated footballers in the country. Jill Scott played in 10 major international tournaments, including two Olympics. At club level, she spent nine years with Manchester City, winning the Women's Super League once and both the FA Cup and League Cup three times.

She also won the FA Cup at Everton. What a career. Well, now she's turning her attention to the next generation. Today, opening a new football pitch in her hometown in South Tyneside, named after her and dedicated to making facilities available to women and girls. It's the first of 23 new football foundation funded sites which will open across the UK in the hometowns of Jill's fellow lionesses. That's very cool isn't it? You may remember after the lionesses victory the team wrote a letter to the two conservative candidates to be prime minister

Liz Truss and Rishi Sunak pointing out that only 63% of girls can play football in school PE lessons and calling on them to ensure all girls have the chance to play. An issue that is very important to Jill, as she told me when we spoke yesterday. I think it's just a great story, really. Obviously, the football pitchers that the Football Foundation have invested in for the Ligonesses, them being in the hometown next to where they used to play as a young kid I just

think it's a very special project and just giving more opportunities to girls and women's football and yeah it's something that I think today is going to be a very special day. It's an incredible project it makes you smile when you think about what what's happening but let's take it back a little bit about your own experience of playing football when you were a little girl in South Tyneside. What was that like? Yeah, it was great memories, to be honest, really good memories. It was the first time that I joined a team where I realised that there was people like me. There was girls that wanted to play football.

Up until then, I'd only known me being the only girl and a bunch of boys. So I've got such fantastic memories, just fields upon fields, running around, chasing the ball around. And to think now that the girls have like proper pitches with good facilities. Yeah, but them days definitely make us smile. And it's incredible to think that there's going to be

young girls running around on my pitch, I suppose, and making memories. The North East is a real hub for women's sporting success. I'm thinking of Beth Mead, who played at Sunderland, obviously a Yorkshire lass. Steph Houghton, Demi Stokes, they all trained at the same club where you began. What's in the water up there? I think there's just a whole load of passion, to be honest.

I was at the Sunderland match last night and I grew up in a family where my brother was Newcastle I was Sunderland so derby days were just incredible but I think if you're from the northeast you've always had to work hard to get to where you are I suppose and I think that was always reflected in the football you speak about them players and the first thing I think of is hard work and passion so yeah maybe there is something in the water what do you think the club announcing these amazing pitches that are opening up is going to do for the women's sport though and we're going to find more Jill Scots of the future now I'm always one of them that says you'll you'll find talent anywhere in in a back lane anywhere anywhere, as long as they love football.

And especially in the North East, there's such big talent up here. But I think one thing it does is it creates a safe environment. Obviously, we're shouting that we want more girls to play football, and that's great. And we're definitely starting to get them numbers now. But we need to create safe environments. There shouldn't always be the last thought where they're on the pitch 8 till 10 because obviously the boys have took priority.

So I just think them pitches will just knock down another barrier, really, for girls and women's football. And you really have been shouting about it at the highest level because you and your fellow Lionesses, you wrote to the Conservative leadership candidates who at the time were both Liz Truss, Rishi Sunak, obviously one of them now is Prime Minister. Do you think you've heard enough from them? Are they committed to your demands? I think, well, to be honest, I was in the jungle

when that meeting happened. So since I got back, I was trying to catch up on things. But yeah, obviously everything's a process, isn't it? I think with girls and women's football, it's definitely been a process to get at this point so they've started the ball rolling and and hopefully we can see see changes this year we've obviously highlighted that it has to start at PE level we need equal opportunities for girls and boys and then you go on to the grassroots level and then that'll filter on through to

the national team so I think it's the start of a process and hopefully we can get that going in the right direction. Is the infrastructure there because since obviously your epic win there's been a huge increase in demand of girls wanting to play football have we got the have we got the facilities to cope? Yeah it is and I know that the FA are doing a lot of work i was at a conference the other day where they're talking about grassroots level football and they're making plans for the next 10 years so yeah everybody's putting in the hard work and i think that's one thing with girls and women's football the law was fine that because you've had a lot of people do it for no money to get it to where it is now so the future is going to be so exciting as I say all these opportunities is going to be 23 pitches

in total like how amazing is that and people can go and they'll be playing on a pitch that's got Beth Mead, Millie Bright's name on and ultimately they'll be kind of aiming to become that player in a few years so I think it's a great story and as I said before I'm just so excited for the future of the game. It's an amazing story it's a it's such a good news story what would what might little Jill think about this? I think little Jill would have arrived at that pitch she'd probably have forgot her kit because I stayed forgetful through my whole whole career um but I think that eyes would have lit up when she stepped on that pitch and also she would have been back in time for tea,

so that would have made her smile as well. Whereas in the past, it was always getting back at ridiculous times of night. So, yeah, it gives this goose bumps thinking of it. Absolutely. I want to ask you about the ACL injury issue in the women's game. It's regarded as one of the worst injuries in football and arguably three of the world's best players are off with this injury at the moment including the top goal scorer at the Euros Beth Mead research has suggested that female players I don't know how much you know about this are more likely than men to get this injury but players

and the fans are calling for more studies into to find out what's causing it is this something that concerns you i think you know what i was always so fortunate with my career and injuries but i've seen a lot of girls go through acl injuries and i've seen them do one and then a few months later do the other and you know what you talk about them young girls looking up to the senior players they want to see their heroes and idols on the pitch as much as possible. That's what promotes the game. If they go to England games, they want to see them players playing. So I think there is a lot of research going on now. I know that I've seen a few projects that are happening.

And yeah, obviously anything to help the game, anything to help keep them superstars on the pitch is good for the women's game. Yeah, there's lots of speculation around what causes it. Some people are saying it's with women having wider hips. Others are saying it's linked to the menstrual cycle. And others are saying it's due to the increased amount of games women are playing. What are you hearing from players? What do they think could be behind it?

Yeah, obviously we used to hear a lot about the way that females are built differently to male players um in terms of game load the men have a probably more games than the women's team so it's a difficult one isn't it i know they used to say about the pictures that um were played on but sometimes it's if you go from like 4g to grass and then back to 4g does that have a have kind of a factor on it but i think it's something it's going to 4G, does that have kind of a factor on it? But I think it's something, it's going to be a constant thing that we're going to have to keep looking at. But the more research, the better.

Because as I said before, keeping them players on the pitch for the player themselves and for them young girls looking up to them players is the main thing. Yeah, we need the heroes. We need the players. We need to carry on lifting those trophies. Because what we didn't realise at the time thing. Yeah, we need the heroes. We need the players. We need to carry on lifting those trophies because what we didn't realise at the time, of course, was when you lifted

that Euros Cup last summer. It was your last time playing football for your country and professionally. Both you and Ellen White stepped down after the tournament. So what's life been like for you since? It's been quite hectic, to be honest. But I've been enjoying it.

It's been great to go around and and share my story and kind of use that journey in the euros to help kind of other businesses and and stuff like that i'm going to be getting back into coaching soon which i'm very happy about i was doing an event the other day and i just loved being back on the grass i was doing some coaching with some young girls so I think that's where I need to be I don't want to be remembered for that girl from the jungle I need to be remembered for my football but you know what I'm enjoying every minute of it and I was so incredibly honoured to be part of that squad in the summer

so yeah it's just exciting and hopefully I can stay involved in the game because as I've touched on, the future's exciting. I'm sure you will be. That's good news, coaching. Imagine being coached by you. I think I'd be starstruck, especially if I was 11. We need to talk about the jungle.

Can I just say, I called it the first episode when you had to walk that plank and you were just so brilliant and generous. And we saw saw we know who you are we just saw a different side of your personality I thought winner she's the queen yeah I think in that moment I'm so scared of heights to be honest but um I think kind of that sports mindset crept in where I was like Charlene's stuck so I need to go and help her it's all a bit of a blur to be honest I just

remember jumping off a building and then seeing that you've got a star which is a bit like of an unrealistic thing isn't it but yeah some great memories yeah absolutely brilliant you were fantastic and you know they tracked your Instagram followers and found that having done that program it's increased by over 250 percent um how are you coping with the attention yeah nobody was following us before that no it's it's been okay as i said before if i if i'm walking around you get a few more people coming over and saying hello but it's all being dead positive and i do enjoy talking to people and meeting people. And if they've supported you throughout your career and then supported you saying, I'm a celebrity,

it's nice to say thank you as well. So, yeah, it's all been fine. Obviously, you have to post a little bit more on Instagram. But, yeah, I suppose that's just the... It's a job in itself, isn't it? It's a way of the world nowadays, isn't it? It's like if you didn't put it on Instagram, it didn it didn't happen now we know you love a good cup of coffee uh have you had one this morning two three how many do you have in the morning i haven't i haven't that's probably why i look how i look

i've got a glass of water at the minute but i will be going for a coffee this morning you look great uh you run box to box coffee in manchester with your partner shelly is that what you're planning on focusing on next are you gonna is there plans for a global expansion are we gonna see a franchise all over the country oh not at the minute I think we need to do one thing at a time she's been so busy with the shop I've worked the last two Sundays and the queue uh it's just non-stop all day so everybody that works in that kind of business I do feel sorry for them because it's definitely a full-time job but yeah I think at the minute we're just going to keep that shop maybe if an opportunity comes up in the future but we'd have to be finding the time at the minute yeah you could just say this is how you do it fueled by this coffee um and finally Jill it's been such

a pleasure talking to you um I we as you know Women's Hour we're launching we've launched our power list for 2023 and it's women in sport so who would you put forward um not that not that you can because it's closed now we've got all our names in the hat but who would you like to shine a light on any woman it can be at grassroots level it can be at the elite level anybody you like who do you think needs to be highlighted as a woman who's doing great work in sport? Can this be players as well? Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, yeah.

OK, well, I think you've already mentioned that, but I think I'd have to go for Beth Mead. I think she's had an incredible year on the pitch. I think she won every award you could possibly win whilst going through a lot of things off the pitch as well, which I think has shown incredible strength from her. So yeah, she's got to be my nomination. Beth Mead. It's a good one.

Good. I mean, I'm totally on board with that one. And just last bit of advice. Any little girl listening to Woman's Hour right now who desperately wants to be you, but you know, she doesn't want to get out there in the cold or whatever what would you say to her I think everything starts doesn't it with that

small step so yeah just even if you just get out with your family your friends start kicking the ball around and see if you enjoy it I think that's the biggest thing especially for young girls just enjoy it and then if you do can you find a local club go make some new friends and yeah just start on on a journey which um will kind of provide you with such fantastic memories so i think the biggest thing yeah just taking that first step but with a big smile on your face very important jill you're a true inspiration you're welcome to women's rhq for a cup of coffee anytime thank you thanks very much absolutely brilliant jill scott there truly inspirational as i just said um as are some of these teachers lots of your messages coming in about the teachers that inspired you that you

might want to say thank you to or not um making me feel quite emotional some of these dear women's hour my english teacher m Ms Fisher, 1976, the first Ms I ever heard or met. She was so strong as a woman that she totally inspired me. She shouted at the girls that we must vote as women had died to give us the right. I think of her at every election and so do my daughters. Thank you, Ms Fisher. I'd like to say, says Helen, I'd like to say a big thank you to my primary school teachers, Mr and Mrs Linley. They took me under their wing when my dad died and went far beyond what was expected of them. Even listened to me

practice the violin, which I was terrible at. Jacqueline says, Mrs Frances Ferguson, John Mansfield School, circa 1977. She literally gave me the key to the cupboard and saved me from school bullies. And Alex says, Miss Pollard, my year 11 English

teacher, she gave me a U in English mock and hauled me over the coals. I've just achieved a distinction in a creative writing MA at Exeter. I'm sure she'll be delighted to hear that, Alex. And Georgia says, hello, please shout out Mrs. Anne Woodward from St. Ivo School. She was a glowing light in the darkness of my later teenage life. She made me feel like I was a somebody and always gave her heart to her work. I absolutely and still do treasure her. I've always wanted to thank her, but no words can explain how much I appreciated her support during those difficult years. You've just done it, Georgia.

84844 if you would like to leave a thank you message and tell us why those teachers were so important to you and who they were. On to our next story. The gang rape of a woman in Islamabad, the capital of Pakistan, sparked protests yesterday with women calling out the country's rape epidemic. The 24-year-old woman was walking with a male colleague in the city's largest park at 8pm last Thursday when she was attacked and raped by two armed men. The police have said that investigations are ongoing, but in a statement warned people to avoid unlit areas of the park in the evening. Well, Aisha Sarwari is a communist based in Islamabad and co-founder of the Women's

Advancement Hub, which advocates for the needs and rights of Pakistani women. I'll be talking to Aisha in just a moment. But first, we'll head to Caroline Davis, who's the BBC's Pakistan correspondent, to get the latest on this. Caroline, tell us more about the protests that happened earlier this week. So these protests were outside the park. There were about hundreds of people that turned up many of them women protesting with flags and banners some of the banners read things like

roads and parks are for us they're not the property of men but also calling people to stand up and say something so some were saying things like the world will not be destroyed by those who do evil but by those who remain silent. And those who were at the protest were talking about the fact that they feel that women's spaces are every space, that these public spaces, they should not feel under threat from strangers, and that they felt that sometimes some of the commentary that had been revolving around this particular case was victim blaming. Rather than talking about the perpetrators, there were questions being asked and said by social media even about why a young woman was out at eight o'clock in the evening.

And of course, these protests were saying that is completely wrong. The focus needs to be on why this could have happened in a major park, an area that normally has families and people are able to safely walk around it and is relatively well lit. And there's a real shock here that this could happen. There's been criticism of the police's reaction to this. What do we know about their response to the original crime? So some of the criticism is related to the fact that they did put out a statement which suggested that people should not be, if they were in the park, they should stay in well-lit areas, which some people have interpreted as being, again, victim blaming rather than focusing on the perpetrator. There's been a lot of criticism that it's now obviously over a week on and they don't seem to have made any further progress. We know that the victim has put out a, has helped to put out a sketch and so that there are of the perpetrators

and that is now being circulated as well but there's also been criticism that maybe there wasn't enough light that maybe there weren't enough cctv cameras that maybe there weren't enough police around for something like this to happen and so that has been one of the initial criticisms of the police in this case and what about the government? How have they responded? Well, again, they have encouraged the police to have more patrols around the area. That security has been increased. I mean, some people have even been calling to say that the park should only be open for women and for families and that lone men should not be coming in. That's not something that's been implemented at the moment.

But there's not been at this stage any sort of massive revival or change in the law. But many people are saying, this is a real moment in Pakistan, to highlight the fact that survivors should not be the ones that are blamed. One of the key issues here is that the case was actually stopped from being reported by the media ombudsman. And that was because they said that some media outlets were starting to put the name of the survivor out. And so their policy was then to decide to do a blanket ban on any form of reporting in Pakistan about this. Now, plenty of media ended up reporting about the fact that there was a ban. So the story still continued. But that has been criticised as well, because obviously many people feel it's important to talk about these cases and to raise awareness about them rather than just to brush it under the carpet.

Caroline Davis, thank you very much for speaking to us. That was the BBC's Pakistan correspondent. I'm going to go now to Aisha Sawari, who is a columnist based in Islamabad and the co-founder of the Women's Advancement Hub. Welcome to the programme, Aisha. Is there a rape epidemic in Pakistan? Certainly. I would say it's this incredible amount of predatory behaviour that we see from men in Pakistan. And we've been protesting it for a very long time and we've been saying that it's getting worse, systemically worse. And, you know, it's almost like the risk analysis

that women have about themselves, about their sense of safety, is completely different from the risk analysis that men in government or men in power or men in media or men in police have. And Caroline's reporting is absolutely spot on. It is a culture that is based on the rape myth that there is a way to escape it. Whereas the fact of the matter is that whenever any woman of any status or any intersection of either poverty or elite or somebody with, you know, means gets into a public space like transportation or a park, she's either going to be groped or she's going to be catcalled or she's going to be catcalled or she's going to be raped, if possible. It's almost like the onus of protecting a woman from physical hurt, from sexual hurt, from psychological hurt rests on the women who have the zero power in this country. And rape itself, you know, there's less than a 3% conviction rate. So all of these high

profile cases from Noor Mokadam that happened a year ago, she was the daughter of a diplomat, to Sara Shahnawaz who was killed by dumbbells by her husband in her own home. And then this recent case where there was a bus driver and his associates who actually did that to a woman passenger. We know the women, we don't know the men who did it. How much of an issue is violence against women generally in Pakistan? I think that's the root of it. But see, the thing with rape culture is that it needs its standalone protection from all the other pillars. So there are, you know, countries with endemic violence, like honor killing in our country is endemic. Obviously, we have this understanding that women have to be policed, their sexuality and their fertility has

to be policed. It's really like, you know, back in the agrarian days, it's almost like Pakistan is diametrically opposite. In one hand, it's moving forward. And in the other hand, it's moving at great neck speed backwards. And it doesn't help that the country is going through an economic crisis if you look at all of these government twitter handles or their social media they're obsessed with other things other than this crime whereas this is um a standard um you know uh right that the constitution gives pakistani women and it's been violated in daylight i'm only a couple of blocks away from this park. I run in it almost every week. You know, it has paralyzed us with fear of the possible.

And I think that is squarely on the on the shoulders of those in power. They have created an enabling environment for rapists to get away. Yeah, because some people are saying that it was too, she was, the rape happened at eight o'clock while she was walking through the park. And some people are saying it was too late for her to be on her own. What do you say to that?

There has been enough cases where minors have been raped, you know, within the circle of trust. Timing has really zero things to do with a woman's safety in this country. The homes are the darkest place for us, honestly. That is where the majority of the silence and the moral outrage actually happens. And the fact that the ombudsman that's responsible for regulating media has actually turned around and said, we banned the reporting because you're you're not going to protect the victim's name it's bizarre because they've never really cared about where victims uh you know privacy rights before and now suddenly they just don't want this

to come out the protests that have happened in islam but this is the reason why we put our deputas on the on the on the guard um you know entrances and the gates of the park, F9 Park. The putters, the heads, the scarves. The scarves, yeah. Correct, correct. Because the idea that chastity or outward symbols of propriety and purity will protect us is a sham. It's always been a sham.

So that is why we took them out. We hung them on the gates to say, you can take that and be with it yourself. We want justice. We want the perpetrators to suffer like she has. So very quickly, I'd like to know about the protests. Who are the women that have come out? I would say everyone. Islamabad is a very insulated city. They are the rich, they're the poor. But this protest, almost everybody from the trans community, from those that believe in labour rights, from those that are belonging to the elite societies, it was fully intersectional. And I'm very proud of the women coming together and organising so quickly, blocking the roads, absolutely creating a bit of a standstill in the

area around the park. And what needs to happen ultimately to help women feel safe? I think the concept of justice needs to be put in action. We're tired of condemnation or strong condemnation. You know, the statements really don't work. We want justice to come in so that retribution is focused on repair. We are a society that's morally sick and that feels that women are inferior. So unless somebody's punished for it, there's no deterrent.

This will keep happening. Aisha Sawari, thank you so much for speaking to me this morning. Lots of your texts coming through about your teachers. 84844 is the number to text. I'm 75 and I still remember history teacher Miss Nixon

who took us all seriously long before women and girls were respected, even the way we are now. That's from Anne in York. And Miss M, excellent role model for this confused young lesbian in 1979. Strong, brilliant and very witty. Talking about brilliant role models. Let's head over to the next guest now. Salma Hayek Pino is a Mexican-American actress, director and producer who broke barriers in the 90s as one of the first Latina actresses to establish a successful film career in Hollywood, appearing in several Robert Rodriguez films, including From Dusk Till Dawn and Desperado, her breakout role that was written especially for her.

She was Oscar nominated for her role in Frida about the life of Mexican artist Frida Kahlo, a film which she also produced. She's been given superhero status in the Marvel film Eternals, and she's the voice of Kitty Softpaws in Puss in Boots. But in her latest film, Magic Mike's Last Dance, she's starring opposite Channing Tatum. And perhaps surprisingly, it's set mostly in a London theatre. Here's a clip of Salma's character, Maxandra, asking Mike for a private dance. It's nice to meet you. So, let's say if you were to do

this just like one last time, how much would something like that go for? How much would something like that go for? $60,000? Maybe? $60,000? Yeah? $60,000? Yeah, $60,000. Let's call it $60,000.

Well, she said it was a silly dance. Who said that? Kim said that? It was silly? Yeah, she said it was a silly dance, but that it would get my mind off of things. And if she's right, I'm going to pay $6,000. What? You're serious right now? You're going to pay me $6,000 to give you a dance?

Yeah, but no happy endings, huh? Having seen the film, it will definitely help you take your mind off of things. Salma Hayekpino and Channing Tatum in Magic Mike's last dance there. Well, Salma joined me in the Woman's Hour studio yesterday to talk about it. Welcome to Woman's Hour. I'm so happy to be here, Anita. It's great to have you here. You know, I'm not going to mess around here because just like the movie, you took us straight into the deep end.

So we're going to go straight into the deep end. For people who've never seen Magic Mike, he is played by Channing Tatum. And his particular skill is erotic dancing. And there's a very sensual scene at the beginning of the film where he dances for you, with you, on you, this way, that way. Yeah. How was that experience? At the beginning, it was terrifying. Terrifying for many reasons, because we shot that last and they were working on a dance that's also in the movie that it's the most erotic thing I've ever seen in my life. It's in the water and he's with this amazing dancer. And it was so technical and and so sexual, animalistic. And I didn't know what they were going to have me do.

You know, when you read the script, it says just dance. He dances for you. And so I was terrified. And I kept asking them, can you tell me what am I supposed to do? And they wouldn't tell me because they were busy with the other dance. And I don't worry about it. Like nothing. It's their day job.

Channing used to be a stripper in real life. He's very comfortable with it. And it's funny because I've had to, I've played strippers before. And I was more nervous to have somebody strip for me than to do the other ones. But then they're such pros. Somebody stripped for me then to do the other ones. But then there's such prose. I mean, and also Steven Soderbergh who shot it and he shot the other two films. They know how to do it to make it look in a way

and feel respected at all times. And we rehearsed and it was funny when we were rehearsing. So the nerves went away little by little. It's an incredible scene. It's a very powerful scene. And you know what I thought when I watched that scene? Lucky Channing Tatum. Oh, thank you. Yeah. That's the woman's hour spin. You know, he's the lucky guy. And like you say, you at the beginning of your career were typecast quite rightly because you're hot as hell as a stripper. And I think the three movies I can think of, Dust Till Dawn, Four Rooms, Although You Don't See Your Head,

and Dogma. Great movie. That's right. Yeah. And so what was it like now to be the one to have the lap dance? It felt like a full circle. I don't know. It felt like a full circle. I don't know. It felt like some kind of evolution and empowering because there's a lot of movies that were offered to me where I also would have played a stripper, but I didn't do them.

I did also a French film where I play a stripper called, oh my God, Americano. And so it was also great that I didn't have to worry about what my body looked like. I would see them on a diet, you know, because there's all these other dancers that also play strippers. I had to go to work every day and my office was a theatre with 12 strippers. And they were all talking about, you know, what they eat, all the exercise. And I was just sitting there relaxing and not worried about that. So it was a group of men discussing their bodies? Oh, yes. Oh, my God. Worse than women. Worse than women.

At some point, and I became very good friends with them, at some point they're asking, like, where do you get your balls waxed? I'm sorry to say this, but I said, oh, no, no, no, I don't want to hear about these. You know, you guys, like, go talk about that somewhere else. Too much information. We should explain to people who haven't seen the film yet what what happens. So your character, Maxandra Mendoza, is divorcing her media magnate who is in London. And as part of the divorce, she inherits this old theatre, which is staging this old period drama. She decides to bring along Magic Mike to shake things up a little bit. Yes. Now, what I found interesting right at the beginning of the film was, oh, this is an interesting spin on it because it's about the power dynamic between this middle-aged woman who's very powerful and her offering something to him. It's a fairy tale, but she was making... Yes, reverse of roles.

Absolutely. But I think a lot of women will identify with my character because my character has been in a marriage for a long time and feels that she's a middle-aged woman and she's never really had a voice and nobody really believed in her and she's been undermined her entire life and he cheats on her on top of it. And that's why they divorce. And professionally, nobody believed in her. So she finds somebody that she sees something in him that she wishes someone had seen in

her. So there's a power to that and a relationship where they both have a dream together and I think the undermining of women is a systematic problem in all different social status and different countries backgrounds, culturally

and so it's for me Maxandra in this movie is trying to get a different kind of power. You're right. And I'm sure lots of people listening may be able to relate to that. Lots of women. And you're right. The undermining of women does happen in lots of different spheres, including the professional sphere. Yes. So, you know, I'm going to go straight to it, which is, you know, you now are a producer, a director, as well as an actress, someone with power as well as fame. You've been a trailblazer for Latina women in the industry, but you weren't paid as a producer when you made the film that you always wanted to make, Frida, in 2002, which is about the artist, the Mexican artist Frida Kahlo. And you say that was normal back then.

For me, that film was a lot more than a film. I think, like, deep inside I felt like I had this duty, I don't know, to her, to my country, to, I don't know, I felt that it was something I had to do. And so nobody believed in it, nobody believed in me. And we were not in a good position, even as an actress, I was paid the minimum wage. And I worked on that film for eight years. But the friend that just having another job and looking for a job,

it was a very important dream for me. And sometimes people exploit the fact that you have passion and love for something. You wrote about it, because in 2017 you wrote about being bullied and sexually harassed by Harvey Weinstein on that film, Frida, and then being too ashamed to tell people what he was really like. I reread the really powerful article where you used your voice in the New York Times and you wrote that it was possible for him to exploit you in the way he did because we as women have been devalued artistically to an indecent state to the point where the film industry stopped making

an effort to find out what female audiences want to see and what stories we want to tell. Is that still true now? It is. When I was making this film, I was working with three men that are feminists, the writer, Reid, Channing and Steven Soderbergh. And they really, this time, listened to me. And they had to because there's three white men doing a film about what women want.

And so the first thing I said to them is like, somebody dancing for us is not empowering enough. We don't just want, you know, to feel free sexually and a man coming and dance for you when you feel free. No, we want to be respected professionally. We want a partner and also be respected by the partner. We want to be loved. We don't just want to be erotically stimulated. And we want a lot of things and we deserve everything. And so it was a mixture of fighting for this, but having men that were really listening to me. And that was new. Do you think that's because of what happened post Me Too and so many women in your industry standing up to say no more?

I think, yeah, I think that has a lot to do with it. And fortunately, it's made a lot of men recalibrate what does it mean to be a man? Not just then what are women, you know, who are they really? recalibrate what does it mean to be a man not just what are women who are they really that will always be a mystery but that

we need to be fascinated on unraveling and I think men are now paying attention to it and having a deep thought process about it. What does it mean to be a good man? What does it mean? What do they want, women?

How do we respect them in a different way? And also then ultimately the stories that Hollywood tell and the way in which they tell them, and maybe Frida would be made in a very different way now. No. Oh, the process, yes. But I would have made the same no no not no you would have made the same film oh my god you don't need to make a different film the film is perfect I'm saying the process yes and they and it took you eight years to get it made maybe it would take you wouldn't take you as long now yes but you know not as long but still long but because every time you try to do something

different and it there was a lot of things different about that it's always a struggle Not as long, but still long. Because every time you try to do something different, and there was a lot of things different about that, it's always a struggle, but I appreciate the struggle. If I hadn't had all that, how do you say, obstacles coming my way, I wouldn't have learned so much. So I think there is a blessing in being of this generation where you get to experience a transformation in society. What an amazing time to be alive and to be a woman. And experience a transformation within yourself?

Because I look at you and I feel like, I mean, you've always beenama. I don't think you've ever been more powerful, though. It's true. And this is important because for me, the most interesting transformation is not just redefining for them what we expect as women and who are we as women, but also that we don't have an expiration date, which this is new, especially in America. Women were dismissed in every aspect by the time they were 40, by the time sometimes they were 30, including sexually. So it's very interesting for me to be able to do at my age this movie where a woman does something that is extremely sexy,

doesn't need to take her clothes off, without taking her clothes off, just in a dance, and you can be sensual at any age. Absolutely. Am I allowed to say that you're 56? Absolutely. Good. I say it all the time. Yeah, and so you should. I think that's all part of it, isn't it?

That's part of being empowered. There's no shame in growing up. The heart of this story is about female empowerment and female desire. Yes. And that it's okay for women to desire. It's okay. It's normal. We get to desire too, not only them. You talk about women generally and women in Hollywood, but you are a woman in Hollywood. You're also a Mexican woman in Hollywood, an Arab-Mexican woman in Hollywood.

Thank you. Who now has a star on the Hollywood Walk of Fame. Congratulations. Thank you. Do you has a star on the Hollywood Walk of Fame. Congratulations. Thank you. Do you sometimes think about the significance of that? Do you feel a sense of responsibility? I think about that a lot. More than responsibility, it gives me purpose,

which is even more lovely because it doesn't feel like a burden. It's an engine. It gives me energy. It gives me passion. And, you know, Arab women, there's a lot of prejudice against them. And so I'm an Arab woman that is having a dance with this man and that is allowing herself to be sensual with no guilt. But that it's okay, like you said, rightly so,

for us to admit that we also desire. So what's your purpose? My purpose is maybe to be breaking concepts, exploding them. Like I said, for example, that we can be sensual at any time. There's a rebel in me. And for people, when they see it, to maybe make them think that everything is possible. And when you are discriminated and when you feel that you're in a position where you're not heard, where you're not valued, having this assurance that everything is possible is important.

Did you feel like an outsider when you first came into the industry? And how do you feel now? I have a combination of always feeling like an outsider and always feeling like I belong, regardless of what other people think. I've lived in so many countries, and I have that combination at all times. I'm a woman full of contradictions. I always feel like I am an outsider and I always feel like I belong. And yeah, and you belong in London because you've lived here for a few years and we love that you're here. Thank you. I love being here. Can we go for a pint soon? Please. Yeah, excellent. Take me to get some curry. Yeah. Tacos? Yeah, I'll take care of the tacos. Perfect. Done. Salma Hayek, you know, it's been such a pleasure talking to you. More power to you.

Thank you. Thank you. And on top of everything else, the voice. The voice. Wasn't that brilliant? Salma Hayek, Pino there. So many of your messages coming in about your teachers. My design technology teacher, John Platte, encouraged me to pursue a career in the property and construction industry outside the box of the school I was at and regardless of being a woman I sadly heard

recently he passed away and felt very sad I hadn't told him the difference that he'd made in my life and that's from Carmel. Now Antoine next subject being a parent as everyone knows can bring with it a whole host of challenges for parents who who are disabled, these challenges can be even bigger, not least because of the discrimination they face from society and even the medical profession. But it's by no means impossible. As a new book, We've Got This, demonstrates. It's a group of essays written by parents who are disabled, blind, deaf, neurodivergent or chronically ill, compiled by Eliza Hull, a musician and disabled parent herself who advocates for a change in the way people view disability. And even for people who aren't disabled or aren't even parents,

it's a brilliant, positive and empowering read full of inspirational stories, really eye-opening. Joining me now are the editor herself, Eliza Hull, and one of the authors, Nina Tame. Welcome to Woman's Hour, both of you. Eliza, I'm going to come to you first. What made you want to collect these stories and put this book out? Look, it really was because when I was becoming a parent, I'd searched everywhere for a book like this, and I was really surprised that there wasn't one that existed. And I then went online to try and find, you know, I guess just community really, and just wanting to know what it was going to be like to be a disabled parent. And again, I couldn't find anything. And the narrative that I kept finding

was that it was a burden for a child to have a disabled parent. And, yeah, that was when I was like, wow, we really need to start to change the attitudes when it comes to being a disabled parent. And I have to say this book does just that. There's so many themes that I want to pick up on. One of them, a common theme, Nina, I'm going to bring you in after this to talk about it, is that even in the medical profession,

people presume that if you have a disability, that you shouldn't really have a child yourself. How common is that response? Well, that's what my experience was. So when I was really excited, I just met my husband-to-be and wanted to start a family. And I'd always wanted to start a family and luckily had grown up in a family that even though I've had my disability since I was a child, they were really supportive of my decision to be a parent. And so when I went to my neurologist, who I'd been seeing since, you know, I was really young and I really trusted him. And I said,

I want to start a family. He said that he didn't think that that would be a good idea. He didn't think that I'd be able to manage. And he was especially worried about me potentially passing on my disability and just said, look, I just don't think it's a good idea for you. And I remember in that moment feeling very vulnerable and a lot of shame. And to be honest, I went home and I started to believe him and luckily had a really supportive partner that just said, no, we can do this. And I'm so glad that I didn't listen to him because I have two great children and I'm a successful parent. And I guess, you know, that medical discrimination is not uncommon. And this book really shows that. And I think this is what I really want to change. And I think this book,

hopefully, will reach these spaces to be able to provide more education. It really should. Nina, I want to bring you in because when you became pregnant, they actually offered you the option of terminating. Is that right? Yeah, I mean, that was because my third, so I've got four kids and my third son has got the same condition as me. So that was like a really weird experience. You know, it was obviously a very wanted pregnancy and we were very excited. And then, you know, we had all the hushed tones as the nurse left because she'd found something. And the doctor came in and said, know he's got spina bifida like you we don't know how serious it's going to be would you like to continue the pregnancy um and I just it was so quick just like that as well and I remember sort of me and my partner kind of laughed awkwardly because we were

like well yeah of course we do like surely there's no one better to parent a kid with spina bifida than somebody who's got spina bifida. But, you know, I mean, we were offered that termination at every sort of subsequent appointment right up to kind of having him. And I feel that sort of for a lot of disabled parents, the kind of joy of pregnancy gets taken away from them by sort of the medical professionals they're seeing, even by sometimes the people around them, because there's always these, but what if this, what if this, what if this, instead of the kind of congratulations that, you know, most parents get.

I've got to say, Nina, I loved reading your essay, particularly your style. It's very straightforward. And then what really struck me is just how patronised you've been at every level, not just from the medical profession, from strangers on the street. Yeah, I I mean I was born disabled but didn't start using a wheelchair and full time until about four years ago so I've

kind of parented on two legs and you know you wouldn't have known I was disabled unless you knew me um and over the last kind of five well over the last sort of 10 years I've parented using a mobility aid and as I say a wheelchair for the last four years but the minute I started using the wheelchair it's like the idea that I could be the parent just gets completely erased so if I'm out with like Jason either half and the kids you can just kind of see people like surely she can't be the mum it's like this idea that well you know her legs don't work so surely none of her works and um it's yeah it's it's a very strange experience to kind of just realize that people just don't you know don't think that i'm the mum eliza one of the other threads that runs throughout these essays is the idea that the thing that needs

to change is society and societal attitudes towards disability you say in your section it's not my disability that disables me, it's society. Where does that change start, do you think? Well, yeah, I mean, I agree. I feel like it's not, you know, it's not, we don't feel disabled in our homes. We feel disabled in our worlds because we live in an inaccessible world where we face discrimination. And that's when I've faced the most discrimination. And especially when I've had children with me, that's when I've faced the most discrimination and especially when I've had children with me that's when I noticed that people started staring at me because I walk very differently and I think what I guess what I feel we need to do is really just have representation

like I can't believe really when you look at it that there are more than 1.7 million disabled parents in the United Kingdom and yet a book like this has never existed and I think that representation is just so much a part of what needs to change whether that be in books or on TV, movies, we never see disabled parents do we and I also think we just need more education in schools because you know young children they are the future. I think we just need more education in schools because, you know, young children, they are the future. I think we just need to shift attitudes when it comes to disability and not seeing it as a deficit or something that needs to be fixed, but instead as what makes the world diverse and wonderful. Something that you both also talk about is your internalised ableism. I want to understand a bit more about this.

What is that? How does it work? And what does it do to you? Even, Nina, yeah. Well, I didn't even know what the term ableism was until, you know, pretty recently, considering I was born disabled. So, you know, when I think a lot of disabled people grow up,

you know, if you're born disabled or just, you know, whenever you become disabled, you often tend to be the only disabled person, you know. So it's so easy to internalise everything. All the messages you hear about disability, you know, nobody sort of sees disabled as a neutral term. Everybody, you know, whenever I used to tell people I was disabled, automatically they'd be like, oh, I'm sorry. And I'd be like but you don't know anything about my life it's just you know it's just a word and I think you can't help but internalize all of these messages that you're given about disability and it wasn't until I found my community I found

the online disabled community I learned about ableism and it was such a sort of light bulb moment of oh it's not me like my body's not wrong. The way my body function isn't wrong. It's just, you know, all of this sort of stuff that I've been internalizing. And for me, when having my son who had the same disability as me was a huge changing point because I looked at him and disability was so beautiful on him. And I was like, how have I not seen this? If it's beautiful on him, then it can be beautiful on me as well. And I didn't ever want him to grow up internalising it and thinking he was the problem. And we've just brought him up to be so empowered to know that, you know, inaccessibility is a problem and other people's attitudes is the problem.

Because I didn't want him to internalise it all like I did. And you say, Nina, in your section of the book that you find real joy in disabled parenting. Tell us about the joy. Oh, there's loads of joy. You know, like having a toddler, you know, toddlers' favourite things are like wheels and bubbles and, you know, I'm on wheels all the time

and just like little moments where, you know, we're out for the day and there's like a good hill and I can sit my little list on my lap and we can kind of whiz down the hill and it's just lovely and they've never like my youngest once sort of said to me and and my son who's disabled as well and was like I wish I was disabled and it was such a weird conversation obviously never heard anybody say that before and I'm like well you know maybe one day you will be babe um it's like you know they don't see it yeah in the way that everybody else does it's a neutral thing and even having like their

friends over and sort of them just sort of experiencing somebody in a wheelchair and just kind of normalizing it because as Eliza said the representation is so small and the representation disabled people do get is often it's very oh they're so inspiring or it's something to pity it's never accurate so I mean I'm so grateful for Eliza to put this book together because it's so important to hear real disabled stories. And it is really it is a really good read. Eliza the book is already out in Australia what sort of reaction have you had? Oh and you know people reaching out um you know a lot but i guess the the biggest and most important messages that i've had is from disabled people that have been told either by

family or friends or medical professionals that they shouldn't be a parent and now this book has given them that. Well, I want to congratulate you. Yeah. And the book, if anyone wants to read it, I really recommend it. It's called We've Got This and it's out now. Eliza and Nina, thank you so much for speaking to me this morning. I'm going to end.

I started by name-checking my teacher, Mrs Bird. And Mrs Bird has been in touch and sent a message. She says, Anita, I'm still here and still working. you my darling girl it's lovely to feel remembered you made me cry of course and you've made my day I love to see you for example sharing New Year's Eve with you and Jules and your divine dancing Mrs Bird now we're both crying enjoy the rest of your weekend thank you that's all for today's Woman's Hour join us us again next time. Hello there, I'm Simon Armitage and I've just walked into my garden shed with a chair in my hand. It's my writing shed and the chair is for my guests for this series of The Poet Laureate Has Gone to His Shed, including Ian McKellen, Pam Ayres, Loyal Karner and Lucy Beaumont.

So pull up a virtual seat next to me and listen in on my chit-chats with the great and good of this world. People who've stopped by for a natter and a cup of tea but often end up burying a little bit of their soul or spilling the beans, if you'll allow me several good old-fashioned mixed metaphors for a moment. Listen through the keyhole

by searching for The Poet Laureate Has Gone to His Shed on BBC Sounds. I'm Sarah Treleaven and for over a year I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody.

Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con,

Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.