Woman's Hour - Jo Cox 10 years on, Actor Geraldine James, Swinging investigation

Episode Date: June 16, 2026

It’s been 10 years since Jo Cox, the Labour MP for Batley and Spen, was murdered in broad daylight by a man who lived in her constituency, motivated by far-right extremism. That truly shocking event sparked a national conversation about the safety of our elected representatives, and the civility of our public discourse. During her lifetime, Jo’s philosophy was that “we are far more united and have far more in common than that which divides us” – a philosophy which led to the establishment of the Jo Cox Foundation after her death. Their CEO Olivia Field joins presenter Nuala McGovern, along with Alice Lilly, senior researcher at the Institute for Government, to discuss the impact of Jo’s death and the safety of female politicians now. Actor Geraldine James is renowned for a host of roles in theatre and on screen, from her TV debut in The Sweeney five decades ago to Jewel in the Crown, Band of Gold, This Town, The Cage and comedy sketch show Little Britain to name a few. Now she's making her Chichester theatre debut in the stage premiere of the 2015 film 45 years, alongside Gabriel Byrne. The couple are about to celebrate 45 years of marriage, when news arrives in a letter from Switzerland about a woman's body that's been discovered in a melting glacier, sending shockwaves through their marriage. A new BBC podcast asks whether women are always safe on swinging websites. Swingers, an investigation from journalist Catrin Nye, explores serious concerns within the swinging community and asks if abuse can exist behind the language of sexual freedom. Nuala speaks to Catrin Nye and Rachel Horman Brown KC, a lawyer whose practice focuses on domestic abuse. The number of bookshops on our high streets has now grown to the highest number since 2012, with some of the rise being attributed to specialist genre shops fuelled by the surge in popularity for fantasy - and 'romantasy' - fiction. We hear from Amanda Logan who opened Ritual Reads in the town of Whitchurch, Shropshire, last November and says about 75% of her customers are women. Presented by: Nuala McGovern Produced by: Sarah Jane Griffiths

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. The Signal Awards recognise the podcast that define culture, and being honored by the Signal Awards sets your production team apart with recognition from the industry's top experts and access proof that your work is a standard bearer for podcasting worldwide. By entering, your work is heard by the Signal Awards Judging Academy, an invitation-only body of podcast professionals from acclaimed organizations which include the BBC. Grow your audience, celebrate your team and stand out.

The final entry deadline to submit is the 26th of June. Enter your podcast at signalaward.com for consideration. Hello, this is Newell-Moghwin, and you're listening to The Woman's Hour podcast. Hello, and welcome to the program. You may have heard news this morning about a campaign of Russian arson attacks that targeted the Prime Minister. But, as we know, violence against politicians is nothing new. Ten years ago today, the MP Jo Cox was murdered outside her constituency surgery. We're going to discuss what it's like for female politicians today.

Also, we will speak to the actor Geraldine James. We know we're in so many roles from the cage, Julian the Crown, Anne with an E, but that is just a tiny snapshot of her extensive career across TV, film and also the stage. She's currently in the play 45 years and that explores how ghosts from our past can resurface and disrupt our present. We'll talk to her this hour too.

So also, as you may know, it's more than 24 hours since the Prime Minister announced a social media ban for under 16s. what has the reaction been in your house? I want to bring you a little of what one teenager interviewed by the BBC told a reporter, it made me chuckle. Earlier we looked at screen time.

What was your screen time over the weekend? Nine hours. Nine hours. So suddenly you're going to have a lot more time to fill. And what will you do? Stare at a wall. Stare at a wall. Okay.

She's going to stare at a wall for nine hours. She's hilarious. She then went viral with. that comment about social media. But what about in your house? What are your sons and daughters telling you about the ban? Freaking out? Resigned?

Relieved? I want to hear. You can text the program. The number is 84844 on social media where at BBC Women's Hour. Or you can email us through our website for a WhatsApp message or a voice note. That number, 03-700-100-444. Now, one thing you could do with all the free time you could have if you weren't on social media is read. We're also going to hear why women

are embracing specialist bookstores, that is, all coming up. But I want to begin today with marking 10 years since Joe Cox, the Labour MP for Batley and Spen, since she was murdered in broad daylight by a male constituent motivated by far-right extremism. That truly shocking event sparked a national conversation about the safety of our elected representatives and the civility of our public discourse. Joe's sister, Kim Led Beater, who was elected as an MP for her sister's old constituency in 2021, spoke to my colleagues on the Today program earlier this morning.

Let's hear a little of what she had to say. Joe was just one of the nicest people you could hope to me. And I know we always say nice things about people when they pass away, don't there? But she really was. She was full of compassion. She was full of kindness. But she also had a steely determination to get things done. She was just a force for good.

We're having a big conversation at the moment about the role of social media. I think that's a really important conversation, particularly for young people. But there's also a personal cost, and I would say particularly for women in public life. When I say that, I don't just mean politics. I mean journalists themselves, sports women, you know, people who are just trying to do their jobs. But actually, when they do express an opinion or when they do, you know, make a comment, the abuse and the threats and the intimidation is very, very real. I think we are seeing movement in the right direction in terms of calling out the bad things that are happening online.

But I also think there are people who are specifically using the online space to create division. People have commented on a number of recent events in a way that is just ill-informed, inaccurate and at worst dangerous. The forces that I think actually are trying to cause trouble and are trying to divide us for their own means have got to be challenging. more. Kim Ledbetter MP and sister of Joe Cox. Joe was murdered on this day in 2016. Joe's philosophy that we are far more united and have far more in common than that which divides us led after her death to the establishment of the Joe Cox Foundation. I'm joined now by their CEO, Olivia Field. Good morning. Good morning. And also with Alice Lilly, senior researcher at the Institute for Government and Non-Partisan Think Tank to talk about the impact of Joe's death and the safety

of female politicians now. Good to also have you with us, Alice. Thank you. Good morning. Olivia, what would you say has been the long-term impact of this terrible murder? So we know when Joe was first murdered that many made promises

to address hate and division and extremism and carry out a more respectful politics and unite our communities. Unfortunately, we know that abuse and intimidation if anything, has probably got worse since Joe's murder. We know that the majority, 96% of MPs, have experienced threatening behaviour. And we know that across the board, whether you're looking at local politicians or national politicians,

women in particular, are disproportionately impacted. So we can't honestly say that those promises have been kept. We do know, however, that we are taking the issue much more seriously than we were to. 10 years ago. So security measures have drastically improved. But there's so much more we need to do. We need to look at the kind of cultural and preventative solutions as well. And we will get into some of those details. Alice, I'd be curious for your thoughts on that, how you see in broad strokes the long-term impact of Joe's murder. I would completely echo everything that Olivia has said. I think over the last decade, there have been a number of steps taken by government.

by police forces, by the criminal justice system, to improve the security apparatus around MPs. That is, of course, incredibly important. It is very welcome. At the same time, the data we have and the anecdotal evidence we have shows us that the level of abuse and intimidation and really very serious and very real threats

that MPs across the political spectrum face persists. we have unfortunately in the last decade seen another MP, Sir David Amos, also murdered. And I think Olivia is right that while these efforts to try and improve security for MPs and for their staff are welcome and important, they fundamentally don't address the deep-seated problems, which are the kinds of cultures and behaviours that are allowing these threats and this intimidation to persist. And until we address these things, it's difficult to really see, unfortunately, what is going to change. It's more addressing, I suppose, the consequences of the ramifications if you ramp up security. I did see the Defence Secretary Dan Jarvis speaking to the telegraph this morning. He said a decade after my friend Joe Cox's murder, politics is more toxic than ever.

Is that how you see it, Olivia? It is. I think, sadly, it's becoming more normalized. We see politicians and other women in high-profile positions. experience abuse and intimidation. But as normalized as it's becoming, its consequences are really damaging. So Dan Jarvis also spoke about kind of a threat to our democracy, and that's something the Joe Cox Foundation fully agrees with.

What we're seeing is really talented people, not standing in the first place, stepping down. We also know that many are now self-censoring because they're really afraid to engage in controversial debates or topics, not just because of their own safety, but actually the safety of their families and their children. What was Olivia, the foundation set up in Joe's name, seeking to do? So we're here to drive forward the issues that Joe was most passionate about,

and that includes addressing loneliness and connecting communities, but also championing a safer and more respectful politics, because we also see that as essential to our democracy and all of our healthy lives, but also we know that this issue threatens diverse representation and of our democracy as well. So the more that we see women abused and intimidated, unfortunately we're concerned that those women aren't going to stand anymore. Let me turn to you, Alice.

What do we know about the abuse or the threats that women in particular as MPs receive? So the data we have and the most recent data comes from something called a speaker's conference, which was a big piece of work led by the Speaker of the House of Commons over the last couple of years on MP security. And what really came through from that was, first of all, how incredibly widespread abuse and intimidation threats are, but also the data suggested that women and MPs from ethnic minority backgrounds do tend to be disproportionately affected by these things as well. Almost half of the MPs that were surveyed as part of that piece of work said that they had experienced some form of hate speech. So it's really quite stark. And certainly anecdotally,

the evidence that we have supports that. Back in 2024, we saw quite a lot of MPs decide not to contest that general election. And what was really notable was how many of them talked about the kinds of culture they were experiencing as driving their decision to stand down, in particular women and also MPs from minority backgrounds. So I think certainly the data we have, and the anecdotal evidence we had does suggest that while this is widespread across all MPs, it does particularly affect some groups. Do we know about other female elected politicians, whether it's local councillors or MSPs, for example, or, you know, it could be across the nations, the various elected officials that there could be?

Well, certainly one of the things that we've seen in the last couple of years is a move to actually increase security protections, not just for MPs, but also for candidates, for councillors, for elected officials at all different levels of our government, which I think speaks to the fact that this is a wider problem about the kind of culture that exists around our politics and the toxicity that exists. And again, what data we have suggests that that does tend to disproportionately impact women. I think a lot of that comes back to what Kim Leapita was saying

in the interview you played earlier, which is just generally women in public, life face an awful lot of toxicity and an awful lot of abuse. MPs are a particularly mistrusted and a dislike group of people. And so when you have women as MPs, there's almost two levels of toxicity that I think they have to face. With that, Olivia, though, you know, we've outlined some of the examples, some of the measures, security. We can talk about that a little bit further. But do you see a way of changing that crux of the problem going down to why women are getting attacked in the way that they are in public life?

Yes, look, I think it's a real challenge, but I do think that there are solutions. And at the Jo Cox Foundation, we have a Joe Cox Civility Commission where we've brought partners from across the political ecosystem. And we're looking at those kind of more preventative solutions. We think what is absolutely critical is increasing political literacy amongst our population, so children and adults.

There is now a commitment to teach political literacy at school, which is very welcome. But we also know that we need to do more to humanise elected representatives and raise awareness of their respective roles amongst adults as well. We also think that political parties could do much more to enforce higher standards of conduct and protect those who have been abused within their own parties. And we think that tech companies have a big role to play here as well. We know that online abuse is increasing and it is often very gendered. And there's much more that tech companies could do to design their products more safely from the outset

so that they could prevent some of these harms. And has any of that been approached for tech companies or response from tech companies? It's a difficult one, but yes, tech companies could look at ways that they have tried to prevent terrorist kind of attitudes being amplified. There are ways that they can do this. We have in the UK the Online Safety Act, which is very welcome, but there are huge gaps in it as well. And we do think government has a role to fill those gaps pretty urgently. With security, just to come back to that for a moment,

how much has security improved since Joe was murdered? It has improved really quite drastically. In what way? So with expanded dedicated police support to local politicians, to candidates, have we discussed, there's been increased kind of training and guidance. We also know that there's some kind of really good practice across the country. So the Scottish Parliament has a social media monitoring service

where MSPs can sign up and their social media can be monitored and they receive additional support if risks are identified. We think that's absolutely something that other parliaments should be doing as well. Turning to you, Alice, we know that the former transport secretary, Louise Hay, felt she had to close her High Street constituency office. And she's not the only MP who changed the way they interact with constituents in recent years. I mean, how do you see that just in the context of your research? I think it's a really tricky issue.

Obviously, safety is paramount. And both Joe Cox, Sir David Amos, were murdered in their constituencies. there is a particular concern that what happens in the constituency is where MPs and their staff are at their most vulnerable. They're not protected in the same way as they are on the parliamentary estate. So we have certainly seen MPs having to take additional security precautions for their constituency officers. We have seen debate about actually whether surgeries should continue going. Ways that surgeries are advertised have changed considerably. We've seen debates about whether there should be.

style security and these sorts of measures when it comes to constituency surgeries. I think the thing is, though, that a lot of MPs are very reluctant to introduce these kinds of measures, because one of the great strengths of our parliamentary democracy is that MPs are accessible, they are approachable to the people they represent. And MPs spend an awful lot of time and effort helping constituents with casework that comes up. And so I think many would be really hesitant to take these kind of additional steps unless they feel that they really have And that's the surgeries. It was reported, Alice, in 2024, that there were three female MPs receiving enhanced security, including cars. It wasn't revealed who they were or why for obvious reasons. But does it sounds like it's not that unusual now? No, I don't think it is particularly unusual. So all MPs receive a kind of basic package of security assistance. But as you say, some will receive enhanced protections based on intelligence, based on the level of threats they have received.

Exactly as you say, for obvious reasons, we do not know who those people are, or indeed, what kind of security precautions they are taking. But I think it's also worth saying that if you spend a lot of time just talking to MPs and their staff, it is amazing how frequently in conversation they will mention just in passing bits of security advice or precautions that they are potentially having to take. And I think there is a real danger that actually this is much more widespread than we recognize. and also that this is almost starting for many MPs just to become a daily part of life and that's really corrosive. You know, we have seen recently violent scenes in South Hampton,

also Northern Ireland the past few weeks. I'd be curious, Olivia, how you think Joe's philosophy, I'll repeat it again, that we are more united and I'm far more in common than that which divides us. How could that be remembered in the emotionally charged days that follow a tragedy? I think her message that we have,

far more in common than that, which divides us, is more important than it has ever been. And we can see that just in the last couple of weeks. It's more than a reminder of our shared humanity. It's a call to action for us at the Joe Cox Foundation. So that message is not about agreeing and all being the same. Actually, it's about recognizing and respecting our differences and still finding, choosing to find our shared humanity. I think one thing this country really needs, whether we're looking at.

in politics or in our communities is more people to be able to come together and debate robustly and disagree but still respect and engage with each other meaningfully afterwards. Olivia Field is the CEO of the Joe Cox Foundation, Alice Lilly, senior researcher at the Think Tank Institute for Government. Thank you both very much for joining us this morning.

Thanks for your messages coming in. Social media ban. I was asking what's going down in your house. here is one. It says, I don't understand why Stormer thinks he can tell my child what she can and cannot do.

It's up to me, not him. She's 13, does media edits and cartoon stuff and puts them on YouTube. She's over 10,000 subscribers and I monitor things. She will not be stopping and she will be growing her channel,

exclamation point. And I should mention that the government have said that only certain features on YouTube will be blocked and YouTube kids, try saying that quickly, will not be effective.

affected by the ban. 844. Some of you're getting in touch there and what is happening in your house in reaction to the social media ban. Really looking forward to hearing some more of your messages. Now, my next guest is the actor Geraldine James. It is almost 50 years since Geraldine took up her first role for television. That was as a croupier in the Sweeney. That was back in 1977. She is back in the casino I noted for The Cage currently on BBC iPlayer if you'd like to catch that. but wow, oh so much in between. From major television dramas, not least her breakthrough role as Sarah Leighton

in the epic 1984 TV adaptation of Jewel in the Crown to classical theatre, here on Broadway, radio four drama, Hollywood films, comedy. Well now, she has made her Chichester Festival Theatre debut. The play is called 45 Years. It's the first stage adaptation of this 2015 film. Geraldine, you're very welcome to Women's Hour.

Thank you very much. Very happy to be here. I was just thinking, I don't think I've ever met anybody called Geraldine who doesn't have an Irish background. I have no idea. I'm half Irish. My mother was Irish. I think that all makes sense. It is one of the names, I think, that is very uniquely attached to Ireland. But it's good to have you with us. With the play 45 years, it opened on Friday. your first time at Chichester, as I mentioned. How have you found it? It's wonderful.

I live fairly near Chichester, and I've never worked to it before. So I was thrilled to be asked to do this. And it's an amazing play by Hannah Patterson. And it's been a lot of fun. And we're just in the middle of previews. So it's all quite full on at the moment. But it's going to be great. So some of the descriptions have been deeply moving.

It's this couple preparing to celebrate. 45 years of what has been a happy marriage. But news arrives from Switzerland of the discovery of a woman's body preserved for decades in a melting glacier. It's assumed to be a former girlfriend of your on-stage husband, Jeff, played by Gabriel Byrne. And I think what's fascinating about this is the ramifications that can come late in a marriage from revelations, even if it is something or someone from years ago. How was it to explore that? Amazing because we all have pasts, we bring them into our relationships

and the question that comes up in the play is, if you keep them secret, do they have eventually some sort of corrosive effect on the relationship? And the difference it makes to actually be able to talk about your life and to be open and honest with a partner. And this history suddenly arrives in their sitting room one morning, and the ramifications of it are huge, and increasingly so they discover. Kate keeps asking questions and finding out more and more about this relationship, which she'd known about, but it had never been important within this relationship with her and Jeff.

So more and more comes out, and as more and more, comes out, she sort of sinks further and further into a kind of despair of just needing to know what the truth is behind all these, you know, why did he say that? Why didn't he say that? And I think people will relate to that very strongly. Definitely will resonate. How do you understand Kate, the character you play, as being shaken so profoundly even so long into a marriage with a man

that she believes she knows really well. I think that's, I think the length of the relationship is what it's about because she has trusted him all these years and suddenly the story comes up and it just comes up as a glimmer and then throughout the play more and more is revealed. And she is thrown back on, what have I given us? up my life to this man and it's been is it a lie how much the lie is it uh are there more lies um so it's a it's a it's a it's very uh it's sort of goes quite deep it's very far reaching and it goes

right to the heart of her and to him i mean he he's an amazing character jeff um and gabriel's pretty good as well so it's it's a wonderful It's wonderfully truthful and unhysterical. And it's just about people who have got very used to talking to each other and telling the truth to each other, suddenly going, well, if that wasn't that, then what was that? And you know, you sort of opening up and going further and further into the ramifications of this event. So these very deep feelings all happening in a domestic setting

with the mundane details of day-to-day life and of course. coupledom that has gone before them for decades. And as you speak about it there, Geraldine, you know, the dramatic weight is centering on this long marriage and the uncertainty that can come in later life or the questioning, which I think will be relatable to many. But I was wondering afterwards, why do you think so much storytelling, be it on stage or TV or film, is centered on new romance instead of this profound and, you know, and complex, what would I call it,

kind of concept of a long marriage or a long relationship. I mean, there's so much to dive into there. It is fertile ground. Exactly. And I think we have got into the habit of only being interested in people who are young and immediate and pretty and people we can all fall in love with. And what has happened, I think, recently, that people have become more interested in people who have lived lives,

who are living lives and finding out about them, because our audiences have lived lives and do relate and can relate to these stories and actually love them. I played Rosalind at Stratford a couple of years ago, and we were all in our 70s. And it gave that extraordinary text, which is essentially about young love. It gave it such an extraordinary sort of echo that you could feel, in the audience, you could feel people responding to it very strongly

because they've been there. They've lived, we've all, we all remember what it was like to fall in love. So, so it's, I'm thrilled that finally, drama in whatever form is beginning to deal with older women properly and long may last. Yeah. Indeed. You know, I was really interested to read that I think when you hit 50, you felt the roles were drying up somewhat, but then an explanation.

of them came when you were 60? Yes, I have no idea why, but certainly there was a sort of doldrum around 50. And it's such a mark, it's such a big line on the ground, 50. And I remember walking over it and going, oh, that's it. And it was slightly coming from me. I thought there won't be any work after 50. And the great Judy Denchies and Helen Mirrens and Maggie Smith have blasted a trail that flew into older age. And God bless them, because they proved that older women can be interesting, can be funny, can be sexy, can be worth watching.

And they've made it, I believe, they have made it much easier for the rest of them. Why do you think, I agree with you that I think there can be a line in the sand around 50 that were surrounded by messages about it and maybe some of it internalized as well. Sometimes I wonder, is it because we physically do change as women? around 50 when menopause is on the scene. Well, when we become invisible, you mean? We're hoping not to be. But I think, I'm just wondering, why you think, is it related to menopause?

Do you think that line in the sand at 50 that you experienced as well? Like, why you think rolls might have dried up? Any thoughts on it? I'm not sure. I had a very happy and easy menopause. I hardly knew it was happening. So I'm not sure.

I can't even remember how old I was. I think I was 52. So that, that, I didn't relate to that specifically as being menopausal. But I, I think it's an idea. I think the word, I think 50 is huge. It's the half, you know. And it's, it's just, I think, rings enormous alarm bells. And I think for producers, traditionally, produce, oh, goodness me, she's 50.

Well, can't we find somebody who's 47? You know, it's sort of It's easier. 49 and a half. 49 and a half is perfect, exactly. That's so funny. Coming back to the play because there's all these feelings that continue

and I think grief and loss is a big part of it as well, which will occur in a long marriage in whatever form that it takes. how was it to explore those emotions within 45 years? It was wonderful and I felt very safe largely because I am lucky enough to be coming up to my 40th wedding anniversary. Congratulations. Thank you very much.

And so I know what it's like to have a very good, strong, positive relationship with a man that has lasted 40 years, or longer. but so exploring, I felt safe exploring it. Prasana Kwanaraja, our director, is wonderful with the text. It's a very, very good play. Hannah writes, she writes as people really speak, so that came quite easily. Gabriel's fabulous. Julie Bevan, who plays my friend Lena, is wonderful. And so it was a very cohesive and company feeling.

And Prasana, who is much younger than the rest of us, was very helpful and very respectful about working with older actors. So it was a very joyous experience, actually. It has been and it continues to be. I'm sure as well. Before I let you go, though, I know you appeared on Desert Island Discs about 20 years ago, in your 50s, here on Radio 4.

And you did speak about your family and your upbringing. and also the impact your mother's alcohol addiction did have on you. You're now a long-standing patron for the National Association for Children of Alcoholics. And I wondered what that means to you. Nacoa means a huge amount to me. It's a fantastic organisation. They help so many children. It's slightly similar to this play.

If the play is about silence, if the play is about what you speak about secrets, my family, I was brought up in a... a secret household. We did not speak about mummy's headaches, as they were called. And it was it was a very, very tough and very difficult. And I made the decision to openly talk about it on Desert Island Disc because I didn't want to tell a journalist who would then interpret it in their own way. Of course, subsequently, journalists have forever sort of taken it and twisted it around and, you know, maybe I shouldn't have talked about it. But I'm glad I have have because I was, I love my mother so much. She was a fabulous woman who happened to fall into

this terrible illness, which she managed to get herself out of. And so it was, it was, it was, it was, it was quite tough growing up and it was about secrecy. So, so there's a lot in this play that's about how different would it have been for us as three young children if we had talked about it in the family. If we'd been able to sit down and go, why is, what's going on with Mommy, can we do anything? You know, and we couldn't. It was all absolutely held in tight, tense silence, which is dreadful for children. And I did see, but Niccoa, that that's very much they are reaching out to children who need to speak about that.

At any point in their lives as they are children of alcoholics. I want to thank you so much for joining us. It's been lovely to speak to you, Geraldine James. And I need to let people know that you were on stage. at the Chichester Festival Theatre tonight. Have a wonderful evening, the World Stage premiere of 45 years, which will be running until mid-July.

Thanks very much. Thank you. The Signal Awards recognise the podcast that define culture and being honoured by the Signal Awards sets your production team apart with recognition from the industry's top experts and access proof that your work is. a standard bearer for podcasting worldwide. By entering, your work is heard by the Signal Awards

Judging Academy, an invitation-only body of podcast professionals from acclaimed organizations, which include the BBC. Grow your audience, celebrate your team, and stand out. The final entry deadline to submit is the 26th of June. Enter your podcast at Signalaward.com for consideration. Lots of you getting in touch about social media bands. Let's see. Victoria says my son just shrugged and said under 16s will still be able to use it as it's already easy to gain access to older content by other ways. He's aware of friends accessing over 18 Roblox chat by using Snapchat filters

to make them look older. Another of my children, 7 and 10, do not have access to social media. They have tablets, but they have increasingly felt left out with their peers as playtime dynamics are very social media influence, which has been heartbreaking. They understand some of the risks of social media and do not want to be drawn in only to fit in. They're hoping the ban will balance out

the number of children preferring to play normal games. So it's a little bit of the free time that we have been talking about. Now, I want to turn to a new BBC podcast that explores the world of swinging and asks whether women are always safe on swinging website. Now, most people would understand swinging to be a form of non-monogamy, with couples choosing to explore sex outside their relationship. But this investigation explores serious concerns within the swinging community

and tells the story of one woman who says she is traumatized by her experience and who now feels anger towards her former husband and also the website that she says facilitated abuse. The BBC has approached Ruth's ex-husband, the woman, with these allegations, but he did not respond to them. I should say that the podcast includes graphic content and the discussion we're about to have contains descriptions that you may find upsetting.

It's presented by Katrin Nye, who is known for investigations, including her podcast, a very British cult. I spoke to her alongside Rachel Horman Brown, who's a solicitor and honorary KC, who specialises in domestic abuse. Catherine says this is the most disturbing story that she's worked on during her career

as an investigative journalist, and it is, as I mentioned, very distressing. And it focuses on Root, the woman who joined a swinging website with her husband. I asked Katrin Nye why she wanted to tell the story. So when Ruth, the woman at the centre of this podcast, came to me with her experiences of swinging, she actually wasn't sure if she'd want to tell this story. It was a really traumatic part of her life. And she knew that talking about it would be both incredibly distressing,

but extremely exposing for her to be telling this story in public. That was three years ago, ish now, and it took her a long time to decide to tell this story. But she did, and for my part, I knew that this story could help other women. So Ruth, that you mentioned at the centre of this story, she was persuaded by her then-husband

to join a Swinger's website. Tell us what happened to her. So Ruth tells us how she was, like you say, persuaded to join this swingers website by her husband. They've been together for more than a decade and over the course of several years. She says that he brought up swinging again and again. Eventually she agreed and initially Ruth thought that they might meet couples, men, women. But what actually happened was that quickly Ruth ended up. having almost all of the sex herself with men.

And she was meeting those men on the UK's biggest swinging website. That's a website called Fab Swingers. And she ended up having sex with strangers more than a hundred times. What would happen was her husband would either watch or sometimes she might go out in a car, meet a stranger, and film the sex for him. She describes those sexual encounters as extremely traumatic, increasingly abusive as they went on. She ended up catching STIs.

She got pregnant. She ended up having abortion. And in the podcast, she describes that experience to me. I was going through the termination. It's really, really painful. And he invited someone round to have oral. I realised he really doesn't care. about my body.

All these men are abusing my body. It's getting infected, getting unwell, and now this termination is happening, and yet I'm still having to meet these men. It's difficult to hear Ruth's story. She says she was pressured into having sex with many men, experiences that she sometimes found degrading and humiliating. Why did Ruth feel that she had to continue?

Well, Ruth would say that for a time, she thought she was a happy swinger. She actually describes in the podcast an incident where she went to a sexual health clinic. And she disclosed that she'd already had sex with around five men that week. Now, they were worried. They offered her urgent help. And she told them she was fine. And when I spoke to her about that, she says that for a period she thought she was okay with the swinging. She thought it was bringing her husband and her closer. She would

arrange the meetings herself. She would even act enthusiastic about them. And she also says that her husband was nicer to her when she did it. What she then describes is this slow, gradual realization that she was becoming more terrified. The sexual encounters were becoming more abusive and she just didn't want to do it. And she describes this realization, this moment where she realized she had never wanted to do it. She had never wanted to join the website in the first place and had only been doing it to please her husband. And to this day, she suffers trauma. And she says she suffers flashbacks of those sexual encounters to this day. Did you approach her ex-husband? We did. We invited her ex-husband to take part of the podcast. He declined. And we

also send him all the allegations we made and he didn't respond to those. When people think about swinging, they often think of it as couples deciding to have sex outside their relationship. Ruth's situation is not what most people understand of swinging. Yeah, that is definitely what lots of people will think of swinging. And there are, of course, people who are part of this community who swing and are happy with it and enjoy it. And at no point in the podcast are we trying to say that those people don't exist. We actually speak to them. We speak to a couple, a number of people who do it completely willingly and enjoy it.

But what we also found was a lot of honesty within the community from advocates of swing about the problems and how it can be an environment where people end up doing things that they don't want to do. We spoke to a number of people who are advocates for swinging, who do it themselves, who are very honest about the fact that they think there are too many women doing this just to please their partner. Now, in your role as a journalist,

you joined a Swinger's website to see what happens on there. Who got in touch? a lot of men. I joined Fab Swingers, which is the website that Ruth and her husband used. I was inundated with requests from men looking for sex. I actually didn't have any messages from couples or from women. And so I decided to talk to some of them about their experiences on this site. There's one man in the podcast who were calling Martin. He spoke to me and we've changed his name because he spoke. which was on the condition of anonymity. Now, Martin says he slept with around 50 women through fab swingers. That's mostly experiences where he's having sex with the wife

and the husband wants to watch. To be clear, he never met Ruth on the site. But he told me about her time when he went to have group sex with one of these women and he felt she didn't want to be there. The interview with Martin is quite disturbing, so just a little warning before you hear from him. To me, the woman looked like she was badgered into it. And I think they were coerced into that situation.

So you felt like she was being made to have sex with you? Yes, yeah. That's not a turn on to me. That's not something that I'm happy about. I'm going to ask a bit of a brutal question here. Did you feel in that situation like you were raping someone? Yes. How many of the women you've slept with that are in couples?

do you think don't want to be doing it? I have a half. It's so rare, astonishing perhaps, to hear from somebody like Martin. Yeah, it was an extremely disturbing revelation from Martin. He says that until that moment where he was having sex with the woman, he had thought she was consenting because of messages sent on the website beforehand. He says he didn't report it to the police, but now he deeply regrets that.

Catherine, what did Fab Swingers, the website, tell you about the safeguards they have in place? What are they doing to protect women that are using their platform? So the website told us that consent is the foundation of swinging, that any suggestion that prior online discussion removes the need for in-person consent at the point of an encounter is not a position the platform endorses, encourages or tolerates.

Fab Swingers says reports, of non-consensual activity are treated as a priority risk. And where it's made aware of them, it acts and cooperates with the police if requested. After Ruth left her husband, she did go to the police and tell them about what happened to her. What was the outcome? So, yeah, Ruth made a report to the police. Her husband was investigated under coercive control and other laws. But the police didn't refer the case to the CPS for a charging decision.

they pointed to instances in their WhatsApp messages where Ruth appeared enthusiastic about swinging and that is something we explore in much more detail in the podcast. Ruth is a very compelling interviewee. It is very upsetting to listen to the descriptions of what she experienced. Why did she want to speak out publicly? Well, it took her very long time for her to decide to do this And one thing that did play a part was Giselle Pellico, as many people will know, for almost a decade.

Giselle's husband drugged her and allowed multiple men to rape her while she was unconscious. Ruth's story is, of course, not the same as Giselle's, but it was the public reaction to that story that made Ruth feel like she really wanted to speak out. Everyone was so shocked, and they said, oh, I can't believe. What's happened, I can't believe. All these men, they're just ordinary men. Oh gosh, I can't imagine anything like that. And I got really, really angry because I wasn't shocked at all. And I don't want people to be shocked.

And that's what motivated me because I am fed up with the shock. Ruth there. Catherine, thank you very much for speaking to us. The podcast does raise serious questions about just how safe women are on the swinging websites. Joining me is Rachel Horman Brown, KC, a lawyer who's practice. focuses on domestic abuse. Rachel, moving on from Root Story, you work with women who have experienced domestic abuse.

Is swinging something that you have encountered in your practice as a lawyer with clients? Yes, I've heard stories from my clients far too often that have involved allegations that swinging has been used as a tactic of coercive control by their perpetrators. And women have either felt, coerced and forced into engaging with it, or they've perhaps started that consensually

and then not being able to extract themselves from it without some negative consequence from their perpetrator. And the details of what happens within those encounters, often women will find very humiliating and embarrassing, and then that in itself is used as quite a powerful tactic by the perpetrator that if you leave me, if you tell anybody, then I will show your grandma that video of what you did last night, or I'll show the children, or I'll show your employer. And I've had cases where that has actually happened. So it is a really powerful tool for an abuser to use.

What have your clients told you about swinging? Well, my clients obviously are generally reporting this from a negative experience. They've told me how ashamed they are and these are things that they don't talk about easily. But often this is one of the most powerful tools that their perpetrator has because it will be the thing that the woman is most ashamed of, feels humiliated about and is terrified of anybody else finding out. So often they feel still very much controlled by this, even after they've left a relationship, sometimes years after they've left a relationship.

I've had experience of a client who was a teacher who had a photograph of her in one of these situations sent to her employer by the perpetrator, her ex-partner, and rather than the school looking at that as evidence of abuse and co-referencing. control, thinking why is this woman's ex-partner sending me as the head teacher this photograph? She lost her job. And there was no consideration about her being a victim and about this perpetrator using this. And again, this is a fear that lots of women have.

And unfortunately, it is true in some circumstances. I think society needs to change the way that they view victims of. this crime. You talk there about the threat that some women may face, for example, videos of what happened. That must, I suppose, feed into why women don't go to the police more often. Yes, because that is their bigger sphere. And even if their perpetrator was to be arrested by the police and prosecuted, and let's face it, that's not nailed on by any means, because the police are still not good enough in dealing with domestic abuse and particularly coercive control and crimes like this

where I think there's still a tendency to blame the victim for their part in it. But even if they are prosecuted, that doesn't mean to say that that video disappears and the perpetrator still has access to it, still has a copy of it, and it's almost like a ticking time bomb waiting, for that to be released online or sent to your employer or shown to your children. So for that reason, in my experience, many women don't report it because they feel ashamed and

they're scared. The societal attitude to swinging can be that it's often seen as a joke or funny in some way or can be viewed as sexual freedom, for example. What's your response to those attitudes? I'm sure there are situations where it can be, but obviously from the stories that I've heard, you can see the dark side of that and what a powerful tool this is for a perpetrator and that we really need to think about, you know, is this person really consenting to this? Is this real consent that's being given to this or not? Or do they feel that if they don't do

it, something negative will happen to them and there's a huge difference? What do you think needs to change to help protect women? I think there needs to be more public awareness of this and an encouragement really that women come forward and talk about their experience. I also think that some of the websites need to take more

responsibility for how perhaps their platforms are being utilised. But the biggest thing as always, I think, is the police and we need to have a really proactive police response. When women do come forward

to report this and they need to utilise the law and prosecute these perpetrators. Rachel Horman Brown, Casey, and the investigative journalist Catherine Nye. The podcast Swingers, which includes more detail that we've had time to go into on this program today, is available on BBC Sounds. And I do want to say if you've been affected by any of the issues that we have been discussing, you can find help and support on the BBC Action Line. Thanks very much for your messages coming in about social media.

Here is one. I am fathered to three children. The eldest is 17. The middle is 15 and the youngest is 12. The youngest is fine with the proposal. She is time to adjust. My middle daughter, however, who suffers from anxiety, is going to suffer. Her biggest fear is that as her birthday is in late August,

the band would result in social exclusion from her peers, some of whom will turn 16, 11 months earlier than herself. 844. Thanks very much for your messages that are coming in this morning. Right, we have heard a lot already this week, including today, including now, about how much of our lives we live online. But it does appear that more of us are searching for escapism in the way we have for centuries with a book. The number of bookshops on our high streets has grown now to the highest number since 2012.

And it's been attributed to a surge in the popularity of the fantasy genre, leading to a series of specialist genre shops being opened. So fantasy is a genre that women are reading in increasing numbers, and it has many subgenres, so cosy fantasy, urban fantasy, epic fantasy, romanticacy. That's romance on a different level. Amanda Logan is a new bookshop owner. She opened ritual reads in the town of Whitchurch and Shropshire in November of 2025. She says about 75% of her customers are women.

Good morning, Amanda. Good to have you with us. Good morning. Thank you for having me. Okay, so what happened? Because it feels like it was only five or ten years ago when all the headlines were saying bricks and mortar bookshops are dead. What made you think I'm going to book that trend? Well, it wasn't me by myself, to be fair. But I think that if you take a look at what has happened in the last 10 years, especially with COVID, it's come the rise of remote working. So I think people find that they are constantly plugged in. They're constantly available. to technology. What's the one thing that you want to do when you finished on your computer on your phone all day? You then want to sit in front of the TV? No, not necessarily. People now want to unplug and step away from that and have a bit of downtime in a nice fantasy world that isn't their

current reality. So we're not looking for dystopia that we currently live in. We're looking for fairies and dragons and, you know, mostly happy endings. So I see there are kind of dragons and and castles and lightning bolts behind you on the wall, you know, related to some of the books, perhaps that you sell. But what is the big seller when you talk about fantasy? Because it's such an umbrella term. Yes. Yeah. So fantasy, but mostly romanticcy. So what you touched on before, it's that fantasy setting, but then some of the main storylines are, you know, romance storylines. But it's just romance in itself, I was talking to somebody about this, is that, I mean, at the moment, you've got Tinder, online dating. You know, it's not that romantic.

And then you pick up these stories where it's like, oh, I'll love you to the ends of the world and that. And you're like, oh, yes, that's more what I had in mind when I signed up for Tinder. So, you know, when I was looking at this this morning and there was another bookstore I was looking at that was very much about love and romance. It was also a specialist bookstore in London. And the woman who owned it had her book boyfriend. And I was like, what is that? So I haven't learned about that this morning. So tell me a little bit more, Amanda, about the book boyfriend.

So your book boyfriend, everybody's got a book boyfriend, although I can't quite, I've got a new book boyfriend. Your book boyfriend is, it's the main character in the fantasy series. And they're always very tall, dark, and handsome and chiseled. But and just a spoiler, if you get a blonde book boyfriend, you know fine well he's going to turn out to be the villain in the end. They're always, they're always seven foot tall, dark and handsome. But everybody has their favorite love interest from a book series. So recently mine is from a book called Dyerbound that we just read with the Fantasy Book Club.

And his name is Stark. And you know, he's very hard on her because he wants her to be the best version of herself. But then he's very soft and romantic. you know, when he needs to be. And you're like, yes, this is good. I want this. Now, tell me, so people are taking, going away from screen, they're coming, walking to your bookshop. What a radical act, right? They're picking up the printed word. What does it mean then? What way do you design your shop for people to come and browse and spend time in it? Yeah, so I went a little bit kind of off the beaten track with my shop and that I thought I'm like,

either people are going to love it or they're going to hate it. So I've really leaned into the kind of Victorian Gothic fantasy vibe. And I've made everything in the shop interactive instead of, you're not just walking into the shop to buy a book. You're walking into the shop to get a recommendation. You might draw a quote from the quote bowl. You might try a gamble at our fortune gumball machine. So it's very much an experience to come to the shop,

not just a chore on your to do list to buy a book. Hang on, what might be in the quote bowl if I pop my hand in there now? So it is, it is just all book quotes. But unfortunately, there are book quotes across genres. So somebody did pull a quote from Silence of the Lambs, and I had to apologize for that. That was not. That was it synchronized with the rest of the decor. Just in our last 30 seconds or so, I understand it was your lifelong dream to open a bookshop.

How does it feel six months in? I can't believe it absolutely amazing. But there are a lot of things that I never, I thought I was going to be sat behind the counter, reading a book, chatting about books. So when people are like, oh, you're living my dream. And I'm like, look, I thought that too. But there's a lot more admin that goes to owning your own bookshop.

But I'd say, for the most part, it is absolutely a dream come true. Fabulous. Go open a bookshop. If you did get five minutes to yourself, what would you be reading today? Oh, what am I? Well, it's the Ice Planet Barbarians, which is sci-fi romance. Of course it is. Well, Amanda Logan, thanks for spending some time with us from Ritual Reads, really interesting specialist bookstores that women are embracing.

Thanks very much for spending time with us today. Tomorrow we'll be finding out about peptides, a new buzzword in the wellness industry. But some doctors are concerned. I'll see you tomorrow at 10. That's all for today's woman's hour. Join us again next time. I'm Kate Lambill, and from Understand from BBC Radio 4, this is rinsed.

Last time I was here, there was a tampon and there was a condom. A sewage scandal, damaging our rivers. We had an enormous range of animals in the garden, and that also started to disappear. Uncovered by ordinary folk taking on powerful people. And they told me, there's nothing wrong with the river windrush. Basically, go away and stop troubling us. This is the story of how a centuries-old battle between public good and private profit

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