Woman's Hour - Jo Whiley on Couch to 5k, Coercive control and suicide, Queen's legacy

Episode Date: April 21, 2026

Earlier this year, the UK lost its status as a measles-free country after a rise in deaths from the disease and a fall in the proportion of children having the MMR jab. Yesterday, the House of Lords Childhood Vaccinations Rates in England Inquiry questioned witnesses from a range of healthcare settings, including GPs and practice nurses, health visitors and midwifery experts to find out exactly what is happening and why vaccination rates are falling. Presenter Nuala McGovern is joined by the Chair of that inquiry, Baroness Joan Walmsley. Women make up 75% of those who have used the Couch to 5k app, which turns 10 years old today. Over the past decade, the running companion has been downloaded more than eight million times and inspired an incredible one billion minutes of movement. Nuala is joined by Jo Whiley, the most popular coach on the app, and Claire Baird and Ellen Morris, who have completed the challenge. Earlier this month, in a landmark verdict in the Scottish courts, Lee Milne was found guilty of culpable homicide after his wife Kimberly took her own life. Culpable homicide is similar to the charge of manslaughter in England and Wales. His coercive and controlling behaviour was said to have been a significant contributing factor in Kimberly’s death. Laura Buchan, Legal Director with the Crown Office and Procurator Fiscal Service and Kate Ellis, Joint Head of the Litigation Team at the Centre for Women’s Justice, join Nuala to discuss. On what would have been Queen Elizabeth II’s 100th birthday, we explore her enduring legacy, the new monuments that will commemorate her reign, and how future generations may remember her. We hear from Tessa Dunlop, author of Lest We Forget: War and Peace in 100 British Monuments, and BBC Royal Correspondent Daniela Relph. Presenter: Nuala McGovern Producer: Sarah Jane Griffiths

Hello, I'm Nula McGovern and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Just to say that for rights reasons, the music in the original radio broadcast has been removed for this podcast. Hello and welcome to the programme. Well, in a moment, Baroness Walmsley, on why there's been a gradual decline in childhood vaccination rates over the past decade. Also today, Scotland's legal system has recognised the link between domestic abuse and suicide in what has been called a landmark case. Lee Millet was convicted of culpable homicide over the death of his wife, Kimberly. We will hear the details from Scotland. Plus, the late Queen Elizabeth II would have been 100 today.

We're going to hear about the plans to memorialise her reign and also her legacy. And we'll have this familiar voice with us. Hi, I'm Jo Wiley and welcome to week one of Couch to 5K. Firstly, well done. You've made it to the start line. Yes, BBC's Joe Wiley. Wiley, the cheerleader we all need to get us off the couch as the free running plan, Couch to 5K, celebrates its 10th anniversary. Also with her, two women who have used it to motivate themselves.

And a question for you this morning, what do you use to motivate yourself to go running? What do you tell yourself that gets you out of the chair and out the door when you could be settling down to binge watch a box set? Well, Joe has called herself a reluctant runner where concentrates on how good she will feel afterwards. What about you? You can text the program. The number is 84844 on social media.

We're at BBC Woman's Hour. Or you can email us through our website. For a WhatsApp message or a voice note, that number is 0,3,700, 100444. But let me begin with vaccines. You might remember at the beginning of the year, the UK lost its status as a measles-free country that was after a rise in deaths from the disease

and a fall in the proportion of children having the M.M. or jab. Well, yesterday, Yesterday, the House of Lords' childhood vaccination rates in England inquiry questioned witnesses. And these conversations included experts from primary care, including GPs, practice nurses, health visitors and midwifery experts to find out exactly what is happening and why is there this fall in vaccination rates? I'm joined by the chair of that inquiry, Baroness Joan Walmsley. You're very welcome to Women's Hour this morning. Good to have you with us. Why are you doing this inquiry now? What exactly prompted it? Good morning, Nula. Thank you very much for having me on. Well, as you probably know,

childhood vaccination program and the school-based program are a free offer and a universal offer. But for various reasons, some families are not bringing their children forward for vaccination to protect them from the infectious diseases that we all thought had disappeared from our country, but are gradually coming back. And so it's our job to look into the various reasons why that is the case and to make recommendations to the government as to how we can improve the level of coverage in the UK, which has, for some vaccinations, has fallen to dangerous levels and, as you rightly say, has caused some outbreaks.

So what are you hearing from experts? What are they telling you? Are you beginning to get any sort of pattern? Yes, indeed we are. And we're talking not just to experts, but we're hearing what families are saying and what questions they're asking. So we're talking to clinicians.

obviously GPs, because it's very GP-based, nurses, midwives, health visitors, people like that. We're talking to researchers. We're talking to the various government agencies, to the experts who are responsible for ensuring that vaccines are as safe and effective as we can possibly make them. And we are reaching out to people on the ground in places where the level of coverage is lower than we would have liked, and hopefully talking to some families when we do that. We're going to a London borough and we're going to a city outside London as well. And when you find those areas, what is it that's behind it, if you can tell? Yeah, there's a range of reasons. And what's emerging

so far is that there are problems with the system. There are some families that have questions and they don't have time to get answers to them. There are some who are extremely hesitant. But that's a fairly small proportion of people. The majority of people have quite a good level of confidence in the system, but they find it difficult to get their appointments. So, for example, if you were invited to a clinic on a Tuesday afternoon, but you're at work at that time, or you can't get childcare for your other children, so you can bring your baby in, then sometimes it's quite difficult to rearrange that appointment. So convenience is difficult for some people as well. And some GP practices have done very well at actually reaching out to families who that is a problem for to make another appointment.

There are some families that don't speak English, don't receive the letter because they've moved or they're not even registered with a GP. So we've taken evidence from various representatives of communities where the level of vaccination is quite low. And we're looking into the reasons why. So when it comes to trying to reverse some of those issues that you've raised, who's responsible? That's a very good question because we're finding it difficult to really nail that. And of course, we're in a position of flux at the moment because NHS England is disappearing. And so the responsibility of commissioning vaccination is going to a different level. So that presents opportunities, but it also prevents challenges.

The opportunity is really the nearer to the sort of coal face, as it were, that decisions are made about the sort of outreach that's needed to reach those communities, the better. And so if the footprint of the place where responsibility lies is too big, then you're not going to get that sort of granular understanding of what the real problems are for individual little communities. And we're hearing a lot about that. And this is England, as we've mentioned. Do you know whether this is replicated in Scotland or Wales in Northern Ireland, for example? Yes, it is. But in all four countries, there are areas where coverage is quite good and there are areas where coverage is really very, very concerning and dangerous for children who've not been protected.

And so we are actually looking into, and we haven't done it yet, as to what they might be doing differently in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland, and we certainly will take lessons for that, from that, and also from other countries, other similar countries, and see if there are any lessons to be learned. So we don't have to report until the end of November, although I'm hoping to publish the report probably by the end of October. So there is time.

And anybody who's listening to this programme who would like to send us some evidence, either research or personal experience or whatever their concerns are, we'd be very happy to receive it. What sort of personal experience are you looking for? Well, what we're hearing is that people, as I said earlier, you know, they didn't get the appointment or they weren't able to come to the initial appointment.

And they have what they call a call-recall system. And sometimes the recall doesn't work because they don't get the second opportunity. So what happens is that if there's money available for professionals to spend time making a phone call, sending messages, sending another letter and all that, then sometimes that can be corrected

and people can have a second chance. But sometimes the GPs simply don't have the extra money. And what we're finding is these outreach programs, they don't have consistent funding. And I think if we could have consistent funding for that, it would make a big difference. So that as a funding issue in some respects. Now, when we came across this story, my understanding was you were asking for individuals and organisations to submit written evidence by tomorrow.

But it could be extended. Have I got that right? Yes, it could be extended. I mean, we published the initial call for evidence several weeks ago. this is my first opportunity through your program to speak to people who might not have seen that. So we can certainly extend it by a couple of weeks. Okay, so that is good for people to get in. And just before I let you go, if these vaccination rates continue to fall,

particularly for children, as we're seeing in these respects, what's your biggest concern? Well, my biggest concern is that we'll have more outbreaks. And what we need to do is to make quite sure that people have the information about when they are being given an opportunity for the vaccination at the right time from a trusted person and they have an opportunity to have their questions answered. Thank you very much for joining us. That is Baroness Joan Walsley. And as she mentioned, you will be able to submit evidence for the next couple of weeks if that is something you would like to do. The House of Lords' childhood vaccination rates in England inquiry is the name of the

committee. I do want to say also we approached the Department of Health for a statement. We have not heard back from them yet. Well, today the BBC is celebrating 10 years off the couch to 5K app. Over the past decade, the running companion has been downloaded more than 8 million times and inspired an incredible 1 billion minutes of movement. That's a lot of movement. That's a lot of movement. Now, for anyone who does not know it, the app is a free, beginner-friendly training program designed to take people from little or no exercise to running five kilometres through short, gradual runs over nine weeks. It's run jointly by the NHS and BBC Sport. It's hugely popular with women. They make up about 75% of those who've taken on the challenge.

And a key part of the app's appeal is the choice of coach to guide you through the program. And I'm delighted to say that the app's most popular coach, the much-loved broadcaster Joe Wiley, Ed, joined. joins me this morning. Good morning, Joe. Morning. How you doing? Well, we also have two Couch to 5K alumni, Claire Bard from Cornwall, who's 51, and Ellen Morris from London, who is 26. Good morning, Claire. Good morning, Ellen. Good morning. Now, Joe, you have had an incredibly exciting career across radio and music. Yet I read that you say, being the coach on the app has undoubtedly been one of the most important things you've done in your career. How come? That is a fact, an absolute fact, because it's been life-changing for so many people.

The number of men and women who come up to me and tell me that it has radically changed their lives, that they would never have considered doing exercise before. Some of them have been having treatment for cancer, they're having rehab, and this is an app that they have been able to use to get them running, because it's so gentle, that's the thing, it's not daunting. I think running can seem really, really daunting. And this is something that you can just do, literally. from your couch, you know, you can just do gentle walks at the very beginning and then you pick up the pace and the idea is at the end of nine weeks, if you want to set a deadline, you can do 5K. But it's been transformative for so many different people. And that's an amazing thing for me to have played a small part in. Honestly, I'm so, so proud of the couch 5K and it's free. That's the most important thing. It's accessible and it's free. I love a deadline that you talk about there as well. I think that's something that motivates you because we are asking our listeners this morning as well. What is it that makes them actually

get up off the couch, off the chair, put on their running shoes and go for it. Joe, for you? What's my motivation? Yeah. I don't love running. I say this. I am not a runner. I did the London landmarks half marathon a couple of weeks ago.

And every single step, I was just like, oh, my God, this is hard work. This is really. I'm not an actual runner. When I see those photographs at the end, they send you the photographs. And I look, my running style is appalling. I'm so embarrassing. But I know at the end of it, I'm going to feel good. I'm going to feel better mentally.

I feel sharper. I feel happier and I feel physically fitter. So that is my motivation. But I always have to set a task. I have to have a run to do to make myself train for it, if that makes sense. It totally makes sense. Ellen, you're nodding along. What's your motivator?

How have you used the app? Yeah, I feel similar to Joe. I also find running really hard. But I guess I say an easy win, but I more just mean like a 20-minute run at the end of it. You can feel proud of yourself at the end. Absolutely. Annie, what does it mean to you, I suppose, to have somebody in your ears cheering you along?

It kind of breaks the run down into smaller segments. So rather than thinking about, oh, I've got a half an hour run, it's just like, I just need to do this next minute or two minutes to hear the voice of the person coaching you. So yeah. I like that minute by minute. Over to you, Claire. Tell me a little bit about what the app has done for you. It was quite life-changing, really.

I had major surgery in lockdown. So I was always exercising, but found obviously I couldn't lift weights and things after having a hysterectomy. So I discovered it at the end of the year and thought, I'm going to give that a whirl in January and tried it and absolutely loved it. It helped me recover mentally, physically. And you meet new friends. It's a very social. It's a very friendly thing, particularly things like Park Run as well. It leads you on to more wonderful things.

So it does open up your whole world to friendship groups, running groups. And it's a very friendly thing to do. And it's a very easy app to use. So, yeah, it's completely life-changing. That's so wonderful to hear. I was mentioning to listeners, Anna's gone in touch. She says, my motivation for running is to regulate my mental health. Sweating helps me keep my channels flowing.

I feel calmer and more resilient for the rest of the day. You're nodding, Claire. Yes, yes. I think cake is a big motivation for me, to be honest. But, yes, everything, everything. It helps being outside. you're out in fresh air, but also you can do it on the treadmill as well.

It's not for everybody to run outside. You find your own way, and you find you chat to a number of people that have also done it, and it's quite surprising. The numbers is quite surprising, which is brilliant. You know, you're talking about that social aspect, park runs. Of course, you can go as far with this as you want,

like literally and figuratively, I guess. Ellen, I understand you're now doing a half marathon, but you still consider yourself a non-runner? So I did the Hackney half last year, so I signed up when I started Couch to 5Ks, they recommended signing up for a race. A half marathon? A half marathon, yeah, it seemed impossible. But I gave myself a year in four months, and it took that time to get there.

You know, this came up yesterday with women in sport. There's women who are out running, being active, yet not considering themselves sporty. My colleague Anita Rani was also talking about this on Instagram after listening to our episode yesterday. Do you now consider yourself a sporty woman? I think cardio-wise, I never considered myself sporty. That's why I always struggled with. And I think now I can take things slowly.

I still don't think running comes naturally to me. But Coucher 5K showed me that if you break things down and take things at your own pace, you will get there. Claire, are you a runner? Would you consider yourself? Would you tell people? Yeah, I just started to, even though it's been like four years. I think you have a bit of imposter syndrome going on and you think that you're not. And then you look at yourself and you're surrounded by people like the other lady said.

When you line up at the start of a half marathon, you think, oh my goodness, there's thousands of people here and I'm actually one of them. And you cross the line and you get that medal and you think, wow, this was never going to be me. I hated cross run across country at school. How did this even happen? It's fascinating, Joe, isn't it? Yeah, it really is. Like, achieving, not even just sitting on the couch thinking about it, but actually out there with maybe a little bit of whatever it is, metal around your neck.

Right. Yeah, yeah, it's an amazing pride that you can have in yourself. That pride can come from just doing 5K. It can be just going out and doing 2K, whatever it is. I think the brilliant thing about this app is that you have somebody telling you what to do because I would be clueless. Honestly, if I was sitting there and I thought, I want to go out and do a run,

I wouldn't really know where to go. I wouldn't know what to do at all. So have somebody in your ear, whether it's me or it's somebody else, telling you to walk for a minute, run for a minute. It just gets you going. It just gets you going. It just makes it so easy to do.

And that is why I think it's been so incredibly successful. It's not scary. It's not daunting. It just gently gets you up to speed. And then, you know, I guess we are all runners. I think we have to put our hands up and go, yeah, I guess we are. You are. You very much are. And the app can be downloaded.

You just search for Couch to 5K. It's there at downloads in a moment. I was interested, Joe, to learn that the original training program was created in the mid-90s by an American writer, Josh Clark, who designed it to help his mother start running. So it was all started for a woman, which of course we love here. And then it spread online and internationally before being formally adopted in the UK by the NHS in partnership with BBC Sport. 75%

I mentioned this figure earlier. 75% of the users are women. Why do you think it resonates so much with them? Joe?

I think, gosh, I don't really know. I think it's the aspect that it's quite easy to do and it can fit with your lifestyle. Many women are very busy and juggling,

as we know, trying to fit everything into our lives. And this is something that you can do when you have half an hour, you know,

when you can finally grab some time for yourself. And because it's not a fiercely competitive environment, that you're doing it, you can do it on your own terms, then maybe that's why it works. As I said, I think, you know, my voice is maybe quite gentle and comforting,

and maybe that is why people gravitate towards me, and I'll get, and also because I'm, you know, I've never considered myself a runner, I'm an amateur, and so I'm maybe not quite as scary as other people might be. But I don't know, you know, when women have more time in their hands when the kids are growing up or when you're just trying to fit some exercise and prioritize yourself in your life, as opposed to everything else that is going on, then, you know, maybe that's why it's been so successful. That's why running works.

I love hearing yourself and Zoe as well and dig it. I'm just thinking your podcast talking about all those competing challenges that there can be. Oh my God, I cannot tell you. Yeah. Right, that are going on. So we've got running in the mix as well. Claire, back to you. Who was your coach?

Sarah Milliken. How was that? I laughed a lot. And I had imaginary conversations with her in my head while I was running as well. So it was quite funny. I think she would love to hear that. Ellen? I had Yasmin Evans at first

and then I changed to Sereymanican as well who was hilarious. Do you think Joe how do you do it? I'm just thinking about like to strike the right tone I know you are an incredibly proficient

accomplished broadcasters you've been in all these different situations so no doubt you can probably find the perfect tone very easily but what is going through your head? When I was recording the app when you were doing the app I think it's

So I had never run before. I was terrible at sports at school. I swam, that's what I did. And then I was asked to do the Great North Run. Initially I said no, and then I agreed to do it. And I got myself a trainer, a local guy called Campbell Moon, who took me out running. And he used to say all these motivational things. He was such a sweet, gentle soul.

And everything he said was so encouraging. So when I recorded this, I very much channeled all the way that Campbell trained me. So really, it's me and Campbell who are doing this out. It was all those things about, you know, just keeping your head up, looking up, being positive, one step in front of the other, try not to walk. And just being encouraging, I think that is what I was focusing on. Obviously, I need to learn some gags. I need to learn some jokes.

And then I can channel Sarah Milliken. I can be funnier. That's not me. I can hear a duo, maybe a coach duo in your future. A couple of messages coming in. Here's Fiona. She says, I did the couch to 5K during lockdown. I'd Joe Wiley to listen to.

She was very encouraging and I felt as though she was speaking to me personally. When I started it, I couldn't even run for 30. seconds, but I persevered and I managed to complete it. I surprisingly enjoyed being out early in the morning, looking at the wildlife, hearing the birdsong. I always made a point of putting in my mascara to set off looking nice. And so our listener there, Fiona, had you in her ears. But Joe, what about music? Obviously, your long career. What do you decide, you know, how important is it as a motivator. As a motivator, it can be incredibly galvanising, gets you going along. Things like Cia, titanium is the one song. Whenever I'm doing a run, if that comes out, the speakers or if people

are playing that on a long run, it's so good. So I've made a playlist and it's got some really good music on. It just can distract you from when you're going through the pain, when you're really thinking, I don't want to put another foot in front of the other. If you've got Fred again singing in your ear or you've got Cia doing titanium, it can just, it just helps you put one foot in front of the other. So I think an uplifting playlist, a motivational playlist can work wonders. But I do want to talk a little bit more, Joe, about music, because I saw a picture of you in the paper yesterday behind the decks of you and Zoe Ebbolt, putting on a night for over 50s. And this is the bit I love. Everyone had to prove they were born before 1975 to get in.

You know, they were amazing. I looked out at the sea of mainly women. That was some guys there as well, mainly women. They looked amazing. They were really glamorous. They had so much energy. They were loving the music. We did this breakfast rave and it was, oh my gosh, about 9.30 in the morning that we started playing the music and they were so bang up for it. I felt a little bit like the Green

Goddess or Mr. Motivator because doing some kind of exercise class early in the morning. But it's, you know, we love music. You don't stop loving music when you get to a certain age. It's always there. You still want to go out and see bands. You want to party. And there's quite a few there aren't that many spaces or that many places

you go to to enjoy yourself and to dance. I do my 90s anthem shows and oh my gosh that is such a fun night and really you know life-affirming. So I'm seeing a Venn diagram here and the intersection is couch to 5K and going dancing. Yeah, I know. It's all about God, it's about enjoying life while you can. It's about really seizing the moment and just you know why you can, while your body still works. Why do you while you've still got the spirit? Just go out there and enjoy yourself. Ellen, a few motivational words from you for some people that are thinking about downloading the app. It's very approachable and I promise you will get through it.

I've told so many of my friends to download it and they have and say the same. Claire? Really easy to use and get those trainers on lace up and just get going. Well, I mean, if that doesn't get you going this morning, I don't know what will. I want to thank Joe Ely also to Claire and Ellen for joining us.

here's Peter from Gateshead. He said there's no bigger motivator than having a running buddy and feeling like you're letting them down if you don't go. Also think about joining a running club. All clubs these days have beginner sessions. You won't be alone in being a novice. These were not novices that were with me, even though they keep playing down their runner status.

Very good to have all of you with us. If you would like to get in touch 8444. I'd like to hear about what motivates you. We've heard a little bit about it this morning from my guests. Now, earlier this month, in a legal first in the Scottish courts, Lee Milne was found guilty of culpable homicide after his wife, Kimberly took her own life. It's similar to the charge of manslaughter in England and Wales. He was also found guilty of subjecting her to coercive and controlling behaviour during their relationship,

said to be a significant contributing factor in Kimberly's death. This is the first time that an offender in the UK has been found criminally responsible for the suicide of their partner. Here to talk about this landmark verdict and its potential impact. I'm joined by Laura Buchan, legal director with the Crown Office and Procurator Fiscal, which is Scotland's Public Prosecution Service and Death Investigation Authority. Also Kate Ellis, joint head of litigation team at the Centre for Women's Justice. Welcome to both of you. Laura, let me begin with you.

Tell us more about this particular case and why you wanted it to come to court. Thank you. Thank you for having me on. This was a first time in Scotland that we'd asked a jury to consider a culpable homicide charge, which is the equivalent, largely equivalent to the manslaughter in England and Wales, for a woman who had taken her own life where we said that domestic abuse was a significant factor in her making that decision. So Kimberly Milne tragically died in July 23 after she jumped from a road bridge in Dundee. a really tragic case. Part of that investigation, and we could see evidence on the day in relation to CCTV image, as well as witnesses' account of the abuse that Kimberly had countered that day from her partner, Lee Milne. And as the investigation unfolded in terms of the police investigation, we were able to identify and evidence a picture of,

of ongoing and accumulating domestic abuse perpetrated against Kimberly over the course of many months leading up to the events of that day in July, 2023. So the focus wasn't just on the events of the day. It was really about what had happened over the many months leading up to the decision that day to take her own life. And of course, these are distressing details as well. I do want to say if anybody is affected by the issues we're discussing. there is a link to BBC Action Line for help and support. But I did think the judges' sentencing remarks are worth sharing. Here's a little from Lady Drummond.

She said domestic abuse, following on really from what you're saying, Laura, domestic abuse is rarely about one incident. It is not only about violent acts. It includes more subtle, but nonetheless is harmful, exertions of power and control in a relationship. It builds over time. Each act, whether physical, psychological or financial, adds to the next,

increasing pressure and fear, eroding confidence and independence. It is the cumulative effect of the varied types of abuse that makes domestic abuse so harmful and damaging. Talk me through what you think about those remarks and also how it plays into this being talked about as a landmark case. So our wish in this really hugely tragic case is it raises and deepens the public understanding of the really devastating impact of prolonged domestic abuse

on victims. And this case underlines a lot of what we saw in terms of the really harrowing and distressing evidence about the incidents that took place with Kimberly. As a prosecutor for over 20 years, we used to prosecute domestic violence as one-off incidents, usually in private, of a man and women. The concept of coercive control has really transformed the way that we identify that investigators identify and prosecutors prosecute domestic abuse. We now know that that abuse takes forms of psychological abuse, emotional abuse, financial abuse, as well as physical violence, and almost all of those elements were seen in the case and that Kimberly had endured in the time of her relationship with Lee. We know that those apart from the physical violence, the psychological impact

of the psychological abuse and have such a detrimental impact in victims and our case was that this cumulative abuse had really had a really detrimental impact in Kimberly's own psychological state and therefore was a significant cause

of the decision to take her own life. The term is culpable homicide for which he was convicted. Can you explain what that term means? So as I said, The culpable homicide is really the equivalent to a manslaughter in England and Wales. So murder you in Scotland, you need to show a wicked intent to cause murder. So this sits underneath a murder charge.

So it's in terms of the intent to which the accused has. Let me bring you in here, Kate. There have been men who've been accused but not found guilty of manslaughter in England before. also women who pleaded guilty to manslaughter over the suicide of Justine Reese. But this case of culpable homicide is a first. Tell me how it fits in context with some of the others that you've seen. Well, we do have broadly equivalent laws in England and Wales. So the relevant offence where a person has caused another person's suicide in England and Wales

is unlawful act manslaughter. So where there has been an unlawful. act by someone which is a contributing factor, significant contributing factor towards someone's death. I guess seeing this verdict, I'm hopeful that we'll see more prosecutions within England of Wales for this type of offence because we know from evidence from data released last year that suicide following domestic abuse has now overtaken your more classic homicide scenario in the context of domestic abuse. In one year, I think there were almost 100 domestic abuse-related

suicide, according to the domestic homicide project. But despite that, there have been very few prosecutions. Now, that may be partly because there are complexities in these sorts of cases in terms of establishing causation, where someone has taken a decision to take their own life. But we also think it's police and prosecutors catching up to the approach that they should be taking to investigate these kinds of cases and actually learning how to examine early on, interrogate early on, whether there is someone, whether there is a context of domestic abuse, which may have been a contributing factor to the suicide. We do have a statement from a spokesperson for the Crown Prosecution Service, which says we know

more about the links between suicide after domestic abuse than ever before. That's why we're linking with police and other agencies as early as we can, investigation so we can work together to bring more successful prosecutions. We've raised awareness with our prosecutors to consider murder and manslaughter charges in suicide cases where there is a known context of domestic abuse or other controlling or coercive behavior. Some cases of this type are currently running. Our aim is always to try and secure justice for victims of these horrifying offenses. But I suppose here, Kate, then, time is really off the essence when something like this happens.

It needs to be immediately considered. It is. And one thing that we're calling for is for the police in every case of suicide to investigate at the outset whether family or friends had any concerns about domestic abuse in the relationship and to treat every suicide as a potential homicide. That doesn't, of course, mean leaping to conclusions or making an arrest, initiating a prosecution in every case. But it does mean securing evidence early on. And if suicides are approached as potential homicides early on, then time-sense.

evidence, including forensic evidence, for example, can be obtained, which it may not be possible to obtain later on if concerns are raised at a much later stage. Laura, your colleague, John Logue, the head of prosecution service in Scotland, said you're putting men on notice if they abuse their partners to the point that they take their own lives. How important is this case or how effective do you think it might be in getting the message across the domestic abuse in any form will not be tolerated? We are really hopeful that that message and the extent to which this has been covered and we know that violence against women and girls is a societal issue

and it is recognised worldwide by the W Health Organisation that's of epidemic proportions. The UK is not immune to that. Scotland is not immune to that. we see 70% of cases in our high court are made up of serious sexual offences against women and children, including really serious domestic abuse cases. And we know that we've had more than 30,000 charges of domestic abuse reported to us over the case of 2024 to 2025. It is a societal issue. It cuts across ages. It cuts across all aspects of society. We need to recognise it and we need to tackle it. And I mean, I think Kate's point in terms of the transformation over the last two decades, we know doubt as investigators and prosecutors have more work to do. But we have come so far and being able to identify what domestic abuse and coercive control can do.

And we really do encourage our investigators and prosecutors to be looking at that from the outset of investigations, identifying that kind of coercive control aspects. And often victims don't realize that they are victims because of the very nature of the course of control in terms of degradation of self-confidence. They're worth isolation from families and friends. So we know it can take time for women to come forward because it is predominantly women. And we want to really reinforce the confidence that they can have in these being investigated and prosecuted. and that perpetrators are prosecuted and held accountable for their actions, which damage not just the victims but wider society.

Staying with John Logue, your colleague, he went on to say that there would have been cases in the past where the Crown Office had not made the link between domestic abuse and suicide and failed to bring a charge of culpable homicide, for example, against the perpetrators. Do you think that will be looked at, retroactively in the sense of any redress for the families of those women? So there's always the opportunity for us in all aspects of our casework to review cases that we've dealt with previously in light of changes in law and in light of changes in evidence.

So that's always open to us. And I think from John's comments where we're talking about that involvement of the law and our better understanding of how to investigate and prosecute these cases, So we will now be, again, I have responsibility for all death investigations in Scotland and all suicides are reported to us. And we know that our prosecutors will now, in light of the establishment made in this case, be looking at these cases in a way to determine whether domestic abuse was part of, was a factor and was a significant factor in the decision to take somebody at one's own life. Keish, your thoughts on that as you look at England and Wales?

Yes, I mean, it does feel like coercive control as an offence, which has only been an offence in England and Wales for just over a decade, has completely changed the landscape in terms of the lens through which we view domestic abuse, and also the possibilities in terms of bringing these sorts of prosecutions, because as Laura was describing, coercive control involves really kind of the entrapment of victims by their perpetrators. It involves gradually kind of isolating and degrading them to the point where, many victims do feel that there's no escape. So yes, we would like to see cases being reviewed where that's possible. It does feel that the direction of travel is changing, albeit gradually. We've seen that signalled by the Crown Prosecution Service in England and Wales. But it does need to start at the policing level. I mean, what we'd like to see is better prevention and disruption of domestic abuse by the police in the first instance, but also where there are suicides in the context of domestic abuse, as I've said,

police really exploring that from the outset and being open to the possibility in every case that a suicide could be a criminal offence. Thanks very much to Kate Ellis, joint head of litigation team at the Centre for Women's Justice and Laura Buchan, legal director with the Crown Office and procurator Fiscal, which is Scotland's public prosecution service and death investigation authority. And again, if you are affected by some of the issues we're speaking about there, there are links to help and support at the BBC action line online. Now, if you missed it on Women's Hour last week,

I spoke to the actor Tessa Peake-Jones. All about turning 60. Here's a little. I asked her whether she thinks the way older women are seen on screen is changing. I think it's a rather slow change. I think it is changing. I mean, what still makes me hoot is when you have a leading man,

particularly in America, but it happens here too, in their sort of 60s and 70s, they have a romantic interest and the woman, instead of being their own age group, is, you know, 30 years younger and you think, oh, come on, let's get real. It's so mad. But I think that I think is slowly changing. But like everything in life, change takes so long, doesn't it? And we get quite impatient about it. I think we as women in our 60s now, I'm going to speak, well, myself, but I'm going to be general. I think we are beginning to feel that we do have a sexuality and a, you know, much more to offer. than, I mean, my aunt, I remember when she, who I lived with, with my mum. You were raised by two women, really, yes. My godmother, Aunt Rihini, she retired at 60 on the dot. She'd worked in a hardware shop six days a week, all her life. And I remember I was a teenager at 60, she retired.

We went to the pub, to a Bernie Inn, and we had a meal, friends and neighbours, and we celebrated the fact that she would no longer ever have to go to work. But along with that, I felt she slightly aged. from then on because it was like she didn't have a focus anymore. She'd meet people for coffee. But it was like that whole thing that had driven her stopped. Now, I think, we, A, work to our 70s and 80s, a lot of us. And thankfully live longer.

And live longer. But I think when we get to 60, there isn't perhaps that marker of, oh, things stop. It's more about, A, this is a springboard for the future. Springboard for the future. You can listen to the whole interview with Tessa Peake Jones on BBC sounds. Now, some of you getting in touch as we continue talking about what motivates you.

Here's one. Tabitha in Scotland adopts the mantra. Never talk yourself out of a run. If you're swithering, great word, Tabitha says when you're uncertain about what to do or choose. It's a new one for me. I'm going to use it. She says, I did the couch to 5K,

age 57. Never having run before, ever. Two years on, I run two miles, two or three times a week. No marathons or aims. Just makes me happy. and it makes my middle, and she puts this in capital letters, firm. So 8444, 844, if you would like to get in touch. Now, on this day in 1926, then Princess Elizabeth was born in a townhouse in Bruton Street in Mayfair. So today would have been Queen Elizabeth II's 100 birthday.

There are a number of events marking the occasion, including plans for the physical monuments to mark her reign. We're going to speak about what they can achieve. and also her legacy for women to do that. I'm joined by Dr. Tessa Dunlop, author of Lest We Forget, War and Peace in 100 British Monuments, and BBC Royal correspondent, Danielle Relff, joins us from the British Museum, where a little bit later the King and Queen will be shown

the final design for the National Memorial to Queen Elizabeth II. Great to have both of you with us. Daniela, so what are you expecting this morning? Yeah, it's a bitters sweet day today, I think, for the royal family, but we are going to see all senior members of the royal family out and about today to mark the day that would have been the late Queen's 100th birthday. And the King has released this video message this morning, which in itself is quite unusual,

which perhaps says a lot about how he feels about this day. And in his message, as well as talking about that he thinks his mother would have been worried about the troubled times that we now will live in, he also does say that he really would like today not to be about her absence, but about a life well lived. And that is very much going to be the focus of events. I'm at the British Museum, as you say, where shortly the King and Queen will arrive with the Prime Minister

to see the Norman Foster designed plans for the physical memorial to the Queen. And then later on, early afternoon, there's going to be reception at Buckingham Palace with all senior members of the Royal Family. And there will be a number of other 100-year-olds who are celebrating their birthday today, and the King will physically hand them their 100th birthday card.

And that will be a very lovely part of the day. But you mentioned Norman Foster there. What sort of designs have been proposed for the various memorials? It's really interesting. I've been talking to various members of the Queen Elizabeth II committee over the past few days who've spent two years trying to work out exactly what would be a fitting memorial for Britain's longest reigning monarch.

And there are basically going to be three parts to it. The main traditional part will be a redevelopment of part of St Jamesith Park in central London, right in front of Buckingham Palace. There's going to be an area that will become the Queen Elizabeth the second place. There there will be a bronze statue of Queen Elizabeth. She will be up quite high on a plinth. And then just behind her, a few metres behind her, will be her husband, Prince Philip. He will be on the ground and he will be looking up at his wife.

So even that dynamic is interesting for a memorial. They're sort of together, but not quite together. He knows his place, as perhaps he did, for most of her reign. There will then also be a charity in her name of Queen Elizabeth Trust, which will be about repurposing community spaces. And really importantly, I think, from both the government's part and the royal family, there'll be a digital memorial, which will effectively be an online site, queen Elizabeth II.com.

The name has been handed over by Cunard, who actually owned it because of them having the QE2 ship, but they've now given it handed it over for this new site where people can then post their, photos, their messages, their memories of Queen Elizabeth II. So that will be a living archive and ultimately a piece of social history. Yeah, so interesting because when you think of all the decades and all the people that matter in so many different parts of the world, kind of given a 360 view, perhaps, of her life and what she meant to people. Yes, definitely. And I think they wanted not to

just be at a distant statue or something you would just stand in front of and think about, They wanted it to be something where people could get involved in, hence the digital memorial, and that it could be in some way a shared experience. But also the statue itself, I think it was really important to the committee. And I know they toyed lots of different ways of doing it, of illustrating that the queen as a figure in herself, recognising her reign and her decades of duty and service, but also having a place for her husband, who was such an important part of her life. But also at that section, that place in St. James' part, there'll be seating, there'll be quotes,

There'll be areas where you can put your phone over a QR code and learn a little bit more about her life. But it's an interesting concept as well, isn't it, Danielle? We are on Woman's Hour to think of this woman on a plinth, as you describe, with her husband looking up at her. I mean, that is unusual to see. It is. And it was interesting to me when I saw the actual models of this yesterday,

how they had framed this. Because they could, I suppose, have had them side by, side. They were for a long time to people who perhaps in the public's mind were very associated. We often saw them together. But they haven't done that. They felt the committee that the Queen deserved a place on her own, slightly above the fray, recognising the long reign that she had. And that her husband should take his place as he did for so much of her a slightly behind that in a support position. And it's interesting as well just to see when you look at the models that You know, he is looking up at her in quite a wistful way.

Just for little girls, I'm thinking, who see something like that. Tessa, what do you think when you hear Daniela describe? Well, it's interesting because, of course, Philip and Elizabeth, this extraordinary matrimonial union, one of the reasons why it was so successful was because they both believed in monarchy. And that came first. And I see Philip, when he's looking up at the queen,

it's not so much he's looking up at his wife because behind closed doors I'm pretty sure they felt they were on an equal footing but that he's looking up at his monarch and there of course she was always more than first among equals and I think it was the great superpower of the queen that she arrived she ascended to the throne so young and that if you like allowed her to always enter a room

and know she was the most important person in that room. And in some ways, that facilitated the absence of ego. She could therefore facilitate others. She was the queen. And I think that was so emblematic, really, of her lifelong reign was this curious absence of ego in this extraordinary world-famous role. And my only concern, really, about the memorial.

And there's a lot of talk around it is that we live in this era of instant gratification. And we immediately want to remember her. and create this iteration on a grand scale. And sometimes you need a bit of time to work out just how significant the Queen and her reign were. At the moment, we're befuddled the worlds on fire. We're in this super hyper-masculine era. And there's almost a desperate craving for everything that she represented.

And I worry that we're kind of, there's lots of different bits and moving parts. There's a bridge in this, there's gardens, there's statues. And I wonder what the overarching vision is and maybe if we waited just a few years we'd see that more clearly. So interesting and I will come back to Daniela on that.

But as I think about the statue, the bronze statue of the queen will be in her 20s dressed in the robes with the Order of the Garter, order of the garter, which will stand overlooking them all, which I also think is an interesting period to focus in on for the girls and the women that engage with this. And this is so key.

A lot of my research and writing has been with women who were the peers of the Queen. In fact, I remember catching, she also served in the ATS and she was alongside Elizabeth at their training camp in Camberley. And this was the teenage Elizabeth. And she recalls very vividly a shy girl because, of course, she'd been sheltered, really locked down in Windsor Castle for most of the war.

And she wasn't even allowed to stay in the barracks with the other service girls. But then she remembers this very confident girl when the press moved in. Somebody who absolutely had a sure footing in front of the press. And that's something we underestimate about the Queen. This idea of her being in front of the world's media. We know Philip didn't enjoy it.

We know William feels equivocal about it. Ditto Harry. The Queen actually really was the master of the media. And I think it's important that we cast her as this young woman because for so many and those who revered her the most almost, they were that age and they looked up to her because she was young and inspiring. The ATS, the Auxiliary Territorial Service,

the British Army's Women's Branch, for those who are not familiar, many will be. But coming back to that, Daniela, that point, I'm just curious, being the royal correspondent, is there an impatience, if that's the correct word, to create a memorial, to have something visible and really in the public eye, such a short space, really, after her death?

I think there is, because I think, you know, as much, I am not a historian, I'm like to say that as much as we would all love to ponder and think and perhaps get it absolute right, absolutely right. I think there is also a need to make sure we don't forget. And the committee definitely believe that the quicker,

kind of memorial can go up, the more that can be an active recall and an active thing for people to do. And we have to remember that all of this as well has been approved and that there's been a lot of discussion with the king and with the wider royal family around what this should be and what it should look like. And it's interesting that you should have the discussion about how she is portrayed because she seems quite young to me when I look at the statue. When I saw, sorry, I did wonder why they had chosen that particular age. I think she's about 30 in the statue. There is also going to be a bust of her on the bridge, which was in the later years of her life to sort of show you the range of her reign. But the mood from the room, the people that made these

decision was that they felt, those around her felt she would want to be shown as a young woman at this stage of her reign. It is what she would have wanted. They also said that during the discussions, they desperately tried not to think all the time, what would she like? What would she want? They tried to block that thought out. But they did ultimately come to the conclusion that perhaps she would like this permanent memorial to be during a time in her life when she was a little younger. Tess, I know you want to come in. Just a couple of things. I think one of the reasons why time is of the essence is that our king is not a young man, precisely because his mother reigned for so long to such a great age. And there's a keenness, I believe, to execute this before we

move on to the reign of William. And I think the other point is the choice of sculptors, we have the bust is going to be done by a female sculptor Karen Newman. She brilliantly did the violets arbo one on Albert Embankment. And I hope she'll capture the emotion of the late queen. Because she was this, on some level, I noticed that the king referred to her twinkle and many people remember this smiling monarch. For others, no, she was a more somber character.

She was someone upon whom we could project our own emotions. And so to be able to get that right will be extraordinarily challenging. I saw Tessa, you called. the queen during her life that she was almost like a time machine connecting people back to Churchill, the Blitz, wartime service, childhood memories.

Can that be preserved with a memorial? A memorial, a bit like a queen. All things to all people. It's got to be a broad church. But in some ways, the queen is the way in which we carry her and remember her.

You're not going to have to go to St. James's Park. If I think about the queen, yes, she was heavily invested in memorial. she was always unveiling them. They will always be the senator for me. You know, our old monarch laying down her wreath for wars past

that she had served in as a young girl herself. Or the unveiling in 2005 of the World War II Memorial, again to women, the World War II Memorial for the service of women. So in some ways it's the Queen as a facilitator. And that was her great gift in this era now when we've lost nuance and we've lost compromise that she could actually serve as, a repository for different views. She could be somebody who made us feel better about ourselves

when we lost empire, who managed to create a new version of Britain. Remember, in the 1930s, we had the world's biggest empire by the 1960s when she was queen. It was a few rocks and islands, and we were trying to sell a new idea of ourselves back to Britain, this rapidly changing country. And somehow there she was feminine, and she always weaponised her femininity. That was one of her secret weapons. But, you know, oh, look, they're waving the flag. It doesn't matter if she's in Garner, which not only shelved the empire first, but then shelved the queen and it's pretty violent. Out she goes in 61, doesn't want to be outdone by Chris Chaff. And lo and behold, it's seen as a hurrah for Britishness, even though actually, as we were speaking and

watching, Britain was being diminished or a version, that imperial version of Britain. And so she was a conjurious trick and how you capture that in a static memorial. Inner Park. Well, that's why I'm not an architect called Norman Bostar. Let me come back to you, Danielle. You know, there were so many organisations that she supported. You know, there was the Mother's Union, Girl Guiding Women's Institute.

They're just of, you know, three that I'm mentioning. But do you see a memorial that will represent that aspect of her work? I think so in this. I think you will get from the memorial or seeing the memorial, you know, whatever your experience or your memory is. And I think that's perhaps why the digital memorial aspect will also be really important. But in terms of legacy, for me, I suppose there's a female royal correspondent here looking at

her life and reporting on it, I was really glad to see that there were so many women involved in the conversation about her legacy. And as we've discussed here, that one of the, a female artist will be designing and making one of the sculptures. Her official biography will be Dr. Anna Kay, a historian, a female historian writing, the official biography. And there are lots of women on the committee too. So an important aspect of her memory and her legacy. I want to thank both of you for speaking on this topic. Of course, we'll continue following the memorials, Dr. Dessa Dunlop and also the BBC Royal correspondent, Danielle Ralph. In Katie Mistit, and Ethan recently got a tour of a new exhibition called Elizabeth II,

her life and style, showcasing a display of the Queen's clothing. It's at the King's Gallery in Buckingham Palace to search for the 9th of April on BBC Sounds to listen to that again. Tomorrow I will be speaking with people about the impact of delays in reconstructive surgery. Do join me for that. And I will also explore the passport bros phenomenon. If you don't know what it is, you will by the end of Woman's Hour. Tomorrow, do join me right here tomorrow at 10 a.m. That's all for today's Woman's Hour.

Join us again next time. Hi there. I'm Izzy Judd and I'm so pleased to be back with the Music and Meditation podcast series 6. We'll be talking about everything from reframing anxiety. to getting a good night's sleep. So if you need to find some moments of calm in your day, subscribe to the music and meditation podcast on BBC Sounds.