Woman's Hour - Joan Armatrading, Baroness Lola Young, Melanie Reid

Episode Date: November 27, 2024

Grammy-nominated singer/songwriter Joan Armatrading joins Nuala McGovern to discuss her 23rd studio album, How Did This Happen and What Does it Now Mean?Losing a baby in the early stages of pregnancy can be an extremely painful experience. Having to think about what you're going to tell your employer about why you're not able to come to work can compound the difficulty. In the UK you are not entitled to any time off work if you experience miscarriage in the first six months of pregnancy. But today, the Women and Equalities Select Committee is hearing evidence for the case of extending your right to bereavement leave to the first 24 weeks of pregnancy. Sarah Owen MP, Chair of that Committee is in the Woman's Hour studio.Baroness Lola Young of Hornsey has spent the last 20 years as an independent crossbench peer in the House of Lords, championing social justice causes such as the fight against modern slavery and promoting ethical fashion. She was also one of the first black women to enter the Lords. In her memoir Eight Weeks, she reflects on her childhood in the care system during the 1950s and 60s and the challenges she faced moving between foster care and children’s homes, and what she learnt from accessing her care records some fifty years later. After writing her Spinal Column for the Times newspaper since 2010 – the first just two weeks after breaking her neck and back in a riding accident - columnist and author Melanie Reid has decided it’s time to stop and has published the final one. She joins Nuala to discuss why she has made that decision and what her plans are now.Presenter: Nuala McGovern Producer: Kirsty Starkey

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2. And of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme. Peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Nuala McGovern and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Just to say that for rights reasons, the music in the original radio broadcast has been removed for this podcast. Hello and welcome to Woman's Hour. Now get ready for pioneering women. Joan Armatrading will be with us. She has a new album. Her 23rd is called How Did This Happen and What Does

It Now Mean? She wrote, produced, programmed and engineered it herself. She's going to be in studio. Also, I have been reading Eight Weeks. That is the moving memoir of the life of Baroness Lola Young of Hornsey, who became one of the first black women members of the House of Baroness Lola Young of Hornsey, who became one of the first black women members

of the House of Lords back in 2004. Baroness Young also in the Woman's Hour studio today. And we will have the columnist and author Melanie Reid, who wrote her first spinal column in The Times back in 2010. I still remember reading that first article. Little did Melanie realise back then that her brutal and funny column about how her life was transformed

having broken her neck and back in a riding accident would continue for 15 years. Melanie opened people's eyes to what it can mean to be disabled. And Melanie has just published her final spinal column. I'm looking forward to speaking to her also this hour. But let us begin with miscarriage. Losing a baby in the early stages of pregnancy can be an extremely painful experience.

And having to think about what you're going to tell your employer about why you're not able to come to work can compound the difficulty. In the UK, you're not legally entitled to any time off work if you experience miscarriage in the first 24 weeks of pregnancy. Now, this may be something that you have gone through. And no doubt a lot will depend on your relationship with your employer on how you navigated those days. If you'd like to share your story, you can text the programme now. The number is 84844. On social media, we're at BBC Woman's Hour.

Or you can email us through our website. For a WhatsApp message or a voice note, the number is 03 700 100 444. You do have maternity rights after 24 weeks of pregnancy when it comes to pay and leave. But today, the Women and Equality Select Committee is hearing evidence for the case of extending your right to bereavement leave to include those first 24 weeks. Just before we came on air, I got to speak to Sarah Owen.

She's Labour MP for Luton North. She's chair of that committee. And I asked her why it's so important to have this conversation. I think this is a priority because it happens to so many women and it affects so many families across the country. We've had a lot of progress in other areas of women's reproductive health but I feel that this area of miscarriage and particularly bereavement leave for miscarriage has been lacking. What are you looking for? So the inquiry that started this week by hearing from people's personal testimonies we'd heard from women who'd had up to 10 miscarriages

and actually wanted to do something very different each time and it affected them in different ways. So first of all, we want to look at why it's needed, how employers can do this and why some are choosing to do this. We'll be hearing from the NHS and Densu today. And does it need legislation to force all employers to do it? And what do you think at first blush? I don't want to predetermine the outcomes and the recommendations. But from what we've heard, there is such a mixture of experience out there. There are some really

good employers. There's really good management skills out there. But actually, it has been lacking for a large number of women, particularly women in insecure work or in low paid jobs. And so if somebody miscarries in those first 24 weeks, what are they eligible for? It depends on their employer's policies, but legally they're not entitled to anything other than sick leave. My understanding, you talk about personal testimony that you have been hearing, and I'm sure it's very moving. I know you yourself have had personal experience of it, if you're comfortable speaking about that. I am. I've had three miscarriages since the age of 38. I'm 41 now. Two while we were trying to conceive my beautiful rainbow baby and one following that.

And each were very very different and painful experiences for different reasons and I wanted different things from my employer at different times and one of them was whilst I was an MP as well. And can you explain that a little whether whether it's your experience and I'm sorry for your losses whether it's your own experience or what you've been hearing about what might be needed that's different in different scenarios? I think it's women's choice, whether it's my experience or the women that we've heard from in this inquiry or people that I've heard from in my constituency, it's choice. It's knowing that they have the choice to not choose sick leave because it feels, it reinstates that there's something wrong with you and quite often you will

have something physically wrong with you if you have to have a DNC procedure you have to go into general anaesthetic there's a lot of medical support there for you and you may it may be physical but also there is time to grieve there needs to be time to grieve otherwise you store up problems later on and I think that that's what some of the employers will be outlining today that actually it saves time and money and also the individual pain in the long run. And D&C a procedure that people may need to undergo following a miscarriage and I think with that as well the first 24 it's such, it can be such a tricky area, depending on the employer as well, and the individual, over whether you want your employer to know you're trying for a baby. Yes, and this is the problem that many women face. They don't want to be overlooked for promotion or a project, or to be seen as that person that's just wanting to start a family and that's their focus. I mean, even when I was shortly elected, I had a journalist ask me,

I was seven and a half months pregnant when I was elected. And they were very much like, oh, well, you know, you're going to be going on leave. What's going to happen? And I explained the proxy system. I explained what was going to happen. And they were like, well, baby's always going to come first, which is a really shocking thing to say, because either you're left with there's no right answer you're either left with um you know no baby doesn't come first and you're an awful mother or yes of course baby comes first and you're an awful mp so i think that we are in a place where actually we don't talk about pregnancy in the way that we do talk necessarily about menopause now we've seen progress in this area but I'd say that miscarriage and the journey of pregnancy isn't talked about enough it is a

complete myth that we see on television and in movies where a woman pees on a stick and it you get the double line and then it fast forwards to this montage where she's pregnant and there's baby showers and things that's not the majority of women's experiences in in's pregnant and there's baby showers and things. That's not the majority of women's experiences in getting pregnant and staying pregnant and having a baby. That's not the experience for many of us. It's a journey. And miscarriage, unfortunately,

is a part of that for a quarter of all pregnancies. And if there was statutory bereavement leave pre-24 weeks. Do you think that could change the conversation, the culture? Absolutely. Absolutely. I think it's just knowing that we're entitled to that. I know that many women probably wouldn't take a huge amount of leave. It also means that they wouldn't be adding up or totaling up sick pay,

which I know is a worry for many women workers. And it would stop the reinforcement that there is something wrong with your body, that there is something wrong with you, that you could have done something different, because in many cases you can't. And it actually acknowledges the loss. And it's not just the loss for the woman, it's the loss for the partner, for the husband, for the parents, both of them, that were expecting and hoping for a baby. It is interesting, actually, just as you talk about that,

and I suppose pulling back the veil in a way, if you know a colleague is on leave for that specific reason, I suppose it could make it a more compassionate workforce as well, because I imagine many women go back in without saying anything to anybody. Absolutely I've heard care workers talk about how they they lied and said

that they were off with flu and actually then sensitive conversations and conversations can't even with the best will in the world colleagues will probably be insensitive by accident and it causes unnecessary pain and also it's not a healthy workplace where a woman's loss cannot be acknowledged um i had in my second uh pregnancy loss we actually went to a memorial and in the team meeting i said oh i'm going to a funeral i didn't say who and i would have said who normally, because I thought, oh, maybe they might be thinking this is a bit silly, or why would you do this for somebody you never met? But actually, you carried them, you knew them, you hoped, you imagined what they were like. And eventually, I just said, actually, no, I want to tell you all why it is where I'm going.

And of course, they were incredibly supportive, the men and women there. And I'm really grateful to them. But they had to have the opportunity to do so because otherwise they just didn't know. That is incredibly moving, Sarah. I think this is the experience that women have across the country. Like I say, that's why I think this inquiry is so important. We don't talk about it enough. And I am done with feeling like they're my secret.

And they're not. They were part of our life. They're part of our family. They're part of my story. They're part of my body. And I think that it's time that society honours them and honours the fact that you know we talk about maternity loss we talk we talk about maternity leave why aren't we talking about miscarriage when this is part of a pregnancy journey in the same way IVF

is the same way adoption is for some parenthood it's there is a journey and this is part of it. Pregnancy is not a simple thing for many people. We've been speaking particularly about women's experiences, but of course there will be partners in this, men and women. Would potential statutory leave for miscarriage um also extend to partners i think we'll look to the outcomes of the recommendations i would say that there is an argument for it given what we heard from the testimony from the women um one woman she nearly died driving herself to a and e because she bled out her husband wasn't offered leave um and had to go to work. And she drove herself to A&E. Like that is shocking. When you have a DNC, as I say, you're put under general

anaesthetic, you need a person to come out with you. You're not allowed to leave the hospital alone because you've been under GA and you've had an invasive procedure. So it is in an ideal situation, you would have somebody with you every step of the way. And also, if you are on leave, what are you doing? Sat at home by yourself with your own thoughts. Actually, if you have time to grieve, you usually do that best with somebody else. So I think it is something that we'll be asking in the inquiry. And we've been talking all about pre-24 weeks potential leave. How different

is it post-24 weeks of pregnancy? It is, you will get the maternity leave, you'll get bereavement leave and it is a very strict cut off. I would hope that employers are flexible but we do know that there are bad employers out there and particularly that women are paid less, they're less secure in the workplace already. So actually tightening that up and recognising the loss pre-24 weeks is really important. Is there a timeline on it, I should ask? There is. We've got our inquiry today,

but we are open to hearing as a committee, as Women and Equalities Committee, from hearing from people's experiences. So please do log on to our website, email us your experiences if you feel that you want to, and also to hear from employers that are doing this and that are finding it beneficial and the reasons why they are is really important. And if you're a business as well that feels that this isn't for you, I do want to hear your concerns, because I think we have to address those and make sure that we lift the barriers for employers to be able to do this for all of their workforce. That was Sarah Owen, the MP. It is the Women and Equality Select

Committee that is hearing that evidence. And if you've been affected by anything you've heard in today's conversation, links to help and support resources can be found on BBC's Action Line. We did ask the government for a statement on this. A spokesperson for the Department for Business and Trade told us losing a child at any stage is incredibly difficult. And we know many employers will show compassion and understanding in these circumstances. Our Employment Rights Bill will establish a new right to bereavement leave make paternity and parental leave a day one right and strengthen protections for pregnant women and new mothers returning to work so we will keep across that story i want to read some of the messages coming

in one incredibly moving in the past few moments listening to your discussion of miscarriage today i sadly had a late miscarriage last week no No signs was picked up at my 20 week scan. I want to say I am so sorry to the person who has just sent that message in. I've been signed off by the doctor for six weeks and this is paid via my employer. I am then eligible to take a following two week special leave. The trauma of having a miscarriage so late when everyone knew I was pregnant is absolutely horrendous. I don't think I could go back to work at this point. And I'm glad I have the financial and emotional support from my employer to get through this.

Again, very sorry to hear that story. Here's David from Hampshire. He said, I would like to share the issue that happened to myself and my wife when she unfortunately had a miscarriage many years ago. I took the total of two and a half days of work. When I returned, it was suggested that I should take the two and a half days as part of my I returned, it was suggested that I should take the two and a half days as part of my annual leave. That suggestion was followed by a one-line resignation letter, as I'm sure your listeners will understand. It affects fathers as well. If you want to get in touch with the programme,

it is 84844 on social media. We're at BBC Woman's Hour. Now, I've got another comment in on something completely different, something very joyful. Many years ago now, walking through Soho with my partner, we stopped off in Ronnie Scott's, spur of the moment,

having never been there before. We were so, so, so lucky. It was Joan Armatrading that was playing, one of the best gigs I've ever been to. Just such an incredible night. A very special memory of such a magnificent musician. Well, I'm glad you are listening because we have a treat for you again, because my next guest is the mighty Joan Armatrading.

She was the UK's first female singer-songwriter to gain international success when she broke onto the music scene in the early 70s. A young black woman with her guitar and some finely crafted lyrics determined to make it on her own terms. And wow, did she. So much love to be hard for Joan. Armour trading, drop the pilot, the weakness in me and love and affection. Welcome. Thank you very much.

That was really interesting hearing about Ronnie Scott's because I was actually the first non-jazz person to play downstairs at Ronnie Scott's. And I think really that only happened because Ronnie Scott and his business partner wanted to manage me. I think that's the reason why that happened. So how lucky was this listener? Yeah, that was incredible because when it was in its infancyancy I don't know, but in the 70s if you weren't jazz you played upstairs and if you were jazz you played downstairs and I became the first non-jazz person

And there you were, but you know I had a great time last night reading and preparing for this interview, you know I had music blaring in the flat and have a little boogie around as I got ready to do a bit of reading as well. Because it's over 50 years that you've been making music. I mean, what do you think when I say that to you?

I think, cool, how lucky am I? Because I know when I started, somebody said to me, you've got five years. You know, get yourself ready because this is this is how long artists last. So they got that wrong, right? They got it very wrong. We can throw, you know, nominations, Grammys and Brits and won the Ivor Novello Award for Outstanding Contemporary Song Collection. We could throw the 23rd studio album at them. I want to give the name again.

How did this happen and what does it now mean? How did this happen and what does it now mean? Well, let me just say that having a career that's 52 years old doesn't happen just because of me. It happens because of the people who get involved and they want to hear my music, They want to come to the concerts. They want to buy the song, buy the albums and listen to the songs and involve them. I've met a lot of willows.

So many people named their children after the songs. There are a lot of willows. I've met a lot of rosies. So it's, you know, I don't think as a young person, I thought, yeah, all this time I'll be here and I'll be making my music and people will be still interested. All those things don't come into your head as a young person. As a young person, you're just thinking, this is what I'm doing. I'll just do this. You don't think long term.

I had no plan. When I started, there wasn't somebody that I thought, yeah, they're doing that or there's a gap. Let me fill that gap. None of those came. Just did your thing. Just did my thing. Just, you know, and I started by just writing my own songs. I didn't start by learning other people's songs.

I just wrote my songs. You know, I was reading that before the release of your first album, if we go way back, 1972 is whatever is for us. That record executive suggested that you change your name, address a certain way and do cover songs. That's right. I'd love to know what the answer was.

The answer was no. But yeah, they said nobody will remember Armour Trading. So you've got to change your name. But I love that name. That's a great name, you know, and I don't want to change it. But how do you think you had the power, as I kind of quote, the power to push back? Because, you know, I hear from young musicians now, young female musicians in particular,

that sometimes feel they don't have the power to be able to stand their ground in the way that you obviously did 50 years ago. Yeah, I don't have a problem with that. I don't have a problem with the word no. I think that's a really good word. And I think you need to know what you want and what you're willing to sacrifice, if you like, or compromise on. It's important that you believe in yourself,

not with an arrogance, but with a certainty, you know. And I've always been very confident about my songs, always been very confident about what I know I want for my songs and for myself. I'm usually, I'm quite shy person, but I'm confident about me. Where did that come from then? Because I'm thinking back then, you know, you're a young woman, not more than a girl. Yeah. This is all I know. I only know Joan.

I only know this. So I've always been this. Come from your upbringing? Come from? I suppose so. I have no idea because, you know, everybody in my family is not necessarily like this. So wherever I got it from, I got it. This is something that you witnessed. It's called I'm Not Moving.

We hear a little bit there. I won't go call the police. Do you want to tell us a little bit more of the situation? Yeah, I was watching this, me and quite a lot of the people were watching this young person having a meltdown and it must have been quite traumatic for them actually to be going through what they were going through and people were trying to get them to leave where they were but they were saying all the things that i say in the song i'm not moving you can't make me move get the police call security they they were actually saying I'm going to kill everybody and everybody was trying to be as nice as they could to them but they were very very agitated and it was quite aggressive so I've tried to put the aggression in

the in the song and they finally did get them to they tried to get them they said do you want Starbucks and things like that so I put all of that in the song and they finally got them to they tried to get them they said do you want Starbucks and things like that so I put all of that in the song and they finally got them to move but it was such a thing for all of us that I literally stood where I was and wrote the lyrics because it was quite a thing to see. So it was unfolding before you yeah but I did read that you feel there is a responsibility with observational songs such as this? Well, yeah, as creative writers, whether it's a novelist or a songwriter, when we see certain things, we write it and we kind of report on it. And that's an interesting thing from our point of view.

And I think it's an interesting thing from the viewers or the listeners point of view as well so that's really what we're doing we're kind of like reporters yes indeed but you don't want it to be a flippant pop song no you and you know you want people to understand the the trauma of it if you like, you know, because this, as I said, this person was going through something that was quite dramatic for them. It wasn't just affecting us. They were actually physically going through it. And you can imagine when they calm down and they reflect,

they must feel, you know, a little bit sad about what's happening to them and what's happened to them and what they've put everybody else through. it's it's it's not a great place to be for them you know so and also i believe with i'm not moving there's also that sense of people being uncompromising perhaps or times changing i'm wondering how you see that. Well, the album is called How Did This Happen and What Does It Now Mean? And that's really talking about people don't want to compromise these days. People are very kind of, you know,

don't stand there, don't look at that, don't be, but, and somebody can insult you but you can't insult them back. And you can't have an opinion, but you must respect their opinion. It's a very strange place that we're at at the minute, isn't it? I'm asking the question, I don't have the answers. I don't know if you've got the answers. I definitely don't have the answers. I come here every day trying to find them, but you know what I mean? But it is good to discuss, even if it is something that is contentious or controversial.

Perhaps part of that is technology, social media. But you've always been on the forefront of technology, haven't you, when it comes to your music? I mean, I mentioned in the open, produce, like obviously sing, write, produce, engineer all yourself. Yes. And I've been doing that for a long time now um because when I started I would because I when I write I I know the the arrangements that I want on the songs so I would play the songs I play the bass play the guitar played whatever on the demos and I'd done that for forever and then I I thought one day it'd be quite nice to do that on a record. So from the 2003 till now, I've been the one just playing everything

and producing whatever. Yeah. Throws it out there like it's nothing. Okay. Love Joan Armatrading. I saw her in Brighton in the early 1980s. She was magnificent. That's the word that keeps coming up, Joan, for you.

This began a lifetime of going to live gigs and collecting fabulous female songwriter music like Tracy Chapman, Alanis Morissette, Tori Amos and others. Joan has an incredible voice live. Please thank her for me so I'm passing that on. I do just want to touch on a couple of aspects before I let you go.

It was announced earlier this year that you'd partnered with the BIMM Music Institute in Birmingham to set up the Joan Armour Training Scholarship. It will cover three years of tuition fees for somebody from a low household income and or a group that's underrepresented in higher education. How does that make you feel? Yeah, no, that's fantastic. Because, you know, people don't think about this. But when you're when you're trying to get into the music business, or you're trying to have music as your career, there's a lot of expense before you get paid for stuff. You know, you've got to buy your

instruments, you've got to get friends around to play work with you. And the friends who come around, they'll want some compensation for doing that. They want sometimes more than just a cup of tea. You've got to maybe hire a studio or hire a rehearsal room. Your parents don't always want you to be in their front room playing. So there's a lot of expense before that. And then if you decide, well, OK, I'd like to get good theory behind me in terms of music, and for that I need to go to a school. Well, who's going to have...

Not everybody's going to have that much money to go and enrol in a school. So it's great to be able to give people who haven't got those resources the chance to be able to, you know, live their dream, really. And in Birmingham, as I mentioned as well, I do want to let people know, of course, because some classical

music coming into Joan Armatrading's repertoire as well. I know you've written a choral piece for the Birmingham Symphony Orchestra's 100-piece choir, which will be performed next year. I'm going to written a choral piece for the Birmingham Symphony Orchestra's 100-piece choir which will be performed next year. I'm going to be keeping my ears out for that.

But until that comes, I do want to let people know it's how did this happen and what does it now mean? Joan Armatrading's new album. Thanks so much for coming in. I have to give you this one before I leave.

My pleasure. Joan! Listening with the biggest smile. Love and affection is my partner Adam's alarm. It's the best way to start the day. Pillow karaoke. Fantastic. Absolutely fantastic.

Thanks so much for coming in. My pleasure. I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake.

No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now. Now let me turn to the columnist and author

Melanie Reid. You may know she wrote her first final column in the Times newspaper back in 2010, and that was just two weeks after breaking her neck and back in a riding accident she thought she might have enough material perhaps for a month but now it's almost 15 years later and many awards later i should say as well and she has published her final column on spinal column melanie joins me now from her home in scotland you're very welcome back to woman's hour melanie

it's lovely to be with you this morning. Hello. OK, I remember reading that first column, Melanie. I had just moved to the UK, I think maybe a couple of months. And yours was one of the first columns that I suppose I became intimately familiar with. But at times I even found it difficult to read, if I'm completely honest. And I'm wondering what you remember of that time. In the early days, I didn't reread it. It was just an expression of what was happening to me.

And I typed it out painfully with one finger and pressed send. And I didn't reread those columns for several years. I didn't have the strength to. So I can quite understand that it was fairly raw. I mean, yeah, raw and honest, because I was just expressing the grief and the bewilderment. And it was like dispatches from the front line. I think that's a really powerful way of describing it, dispatches from the front line. And for those that are not familiar, as I mentioned,

you had broke your neck and back in a riding accident. This was life-changing injuries that had happened to you. And you'd just come off a ventilator, I understand, when you wrote that. I mean, what was going through your mind when you're like, I need to get this down in some way, shape or form? Well, I think I was slightly bonkers with all the morphine and the opium. And I was convinced that I was going to get sacked because something so terrible had happened that I would lose my job.

And I was a main breadwinner. And it's totally irrational. But I thought, well, if I give them something, they won't fire me. And also my journalistic instinct kicked in. I could tell that this was good stuff. This was good copy. I was in this strange, strange world that nobody knew existed. Nobody in the fit, happy world knew existed.

And things were happening to me that were quite extraordinary. And it was kind of like, hey, this is something to tell you guys. And so I just I rambled into a dictaphone in the beginning. And when the opiates were reduced, I got in front of a laptop and started typing. Have you reread those early columns now? It took several years and it was very painful. I probably took about 10 years before I could read them. Yeah, I mean, yeah, you never really recover from something like this.

You just learn to live with it. And yeah, i don't enjoy going back and reading some of those yeah it could be re-traumatizing i am sure um but you are at this point now 50 i find it difficult that it's 15 years later so i can't imagine how it feels to you you've decided to end this column. Why now? I kind of wanted, you know, it's absolutely my choice. And I just felt that I wanted to go out on a high. Again, the journalistic side of me knows that when columns start to get tired, they get tired. And I didn't want that to happen um i uh also my husband who dave the beloved dave me who made so many sacrifices for

me he's quite a lot older than me and he has a condition that's quite cruel and he needs a lot more time and attention so it's time for me to devote more time to him. And I can't write about him and his condition. So I didn't want to do fake cheery. And I just felt, go with grace, go, you know. I mean, I've written a lot of undignified stuff because spinal injury is undignified. But I thought, gather the tatters of your dignity about you and get out in a high, Mel. So that's what I did. And I read it.

And for people who haven't, it is very moving. And I suppose it does bring one chapter to a close, shall we say, as we read it. What do you think, however, will be the legacy of this column? And don't be modest. I am. I just can't help it. It would be great to think that I helped. I certainly helped raise awareness on spinal injury, for sure. I mean, there are 50,000 people like me who've suffered this kind of traumatic injury at any one time in the UK.

And up until Christopher Reeve, up until I started writing the column, you know, people had heard about Christopher Reeve, but that was it. And nobody knew what it meant, really really unless you had someone in your family so I've definitely helped move the dial on that I helped raise a little bit of money um I think I started writing about what it meant to be disabled at a time when disability wasn't really discussed like it is now I think there's been quite a revolution in those terms. We didn't have identity politics. We didn't have that whole thing about disability politics. I'm not totally into disability politics,

but it's great that it's a thing and it's great for younger people. And I do think I was part of a start of something that helped change, change, change public attitudes. Did you make a conscious decision that nothing would be off the table, so to speak? Yeah, kind of a no holds barred. Was that conscious or is that like, that's my life, just deal with it? Well, you know, there's a lot of pee and poo involved when you're paralysed. And I got away with quite a lot in the times. There were things that my magazine editor couldn't go with. And I, you know, there were that i i ended up not writing about um

but it's darkly funny it is it's real life um and there are tell you there are there are hundreds of thousands of other people out there with chronic illnesses who go through it every day or elder you know frail elderly and know, it's just that nobody ever writes about it in the mainstream media. I did what I could. It was, I mean, I'm, I self-censored, I ended up self-censoring, because you can't write about, you can only write about so often. And I, and when I wrote a book, I did, I was then, I was a bit more frank in the book. But, you know, in newspaper columns, you could only go so far. But I went a lot further than other people had gone before.

And maybe I can be proud of that. Of course you can. That's my legacy, maybe. And I think there's a couple of things. I think definitely that. I think when you talk about, you know, whether pee and poo, for a lot of people, towards the end of their life, they will need care in some way. A lot of people also talk about just being, you know, nobody is that far away from it.

I'm always struck by one woman who is in here talking about caring, saying, you know, we live in breakable bodies. And that's just a fact of life that some people do not want to recognise. But I was struck by just how many people got in touch with you, you know, that brought your photograph, I don't know, up the Himalayas or brought you to a beach or wanted to get your name tattooed on their arm. It was, you know, really, really lovely and overwhelming. And I felt, I feel very loved. There are, I have many, many. There are many people out there who are lovely, friendly strangers to me. They're strangers, but they feel that I'm their friend and they feel like friends to me, a lot of them.

I've tried to correspond with them. People who are in my circumstances and who feel that I've given them a voice, but also healthy fit people in the in the nice shiny world um who I've given them pause to think a bit and that's great if I can help give people um a little chance to to put things in perspective a bit more your book is the world I fell out of if people want to get even more frank on some of the discussions

that you have had. I want to get into just a couple of issues while I have you. This is a week in which MPs will be asked to make a decision that could have consequences for decades. That is the terminally ill adults end of life bill for England and Wales.

You have written about this topic. You want this bill to become law? Yes, I am in favour of this. Why? I was before my accident. So my disability hasn't actually changed anything on this. Though I think there is something to say about that. I think if you have an acquired disability you have a completely different attitude to things to someone who was born with a disability and I

think that's that's very pertinent to how you regard your body. If you've known what it was like to have a fully fit body and you live with loss and bereavement, I think it's easier to contemplate escaping from it when you want to. Whereas if you've, from an early age, it has been you and it is you, I think you are, you have to be more fierce in defending it and in your status and i accept that but i've always always um been quite fierce about my belief that you have a human right to um do with your body what you want to do in the city it's i mean in the 1970s listening to joan alma trading there i mean i was 18 it took me right back there and i had a fierce belief in um a woman's reproductive rights and i still have that it was that visceral thing this is my body and there ain't anybody

going to tell me what to do with it you i feel that now you feel that now. You feel that now. You will know, of course, that there's strong emotion and feeling in this debate with deeply held views and personal stories on both sides. And one of the concerns which we often hear for those who oppose the bill is whether it contains adequate safeguards to prevent people from being coerced into ending their lives. Do you understand that concern? I get it, but I'm not altogether sure that it's, I don't think it's a moral argument, because I mean, people make sacrifices for their families all the time. It was Mary Warnock that said this, the great Baroness Warnock. And, you know, if you make sacrifices for your family all the time, then when you're, you know, you've got to the end and you're fed up and you really are becoming a burden, it's just, you know,

it's just another bit of life, isn't it? You just want to get on with it. Some people might be shocked to hear that, Melanie, though. They'd be like, life is sacred and that it can't be thought of in any glib or flippant way you know what i'm saying i'm not yeah i hope i i don't come across as flippant i don't mean to be but i i know my

mother had outside she had vascular dementia and i missed her she had pockets when her brain times and pockets when her brain was working perfectly and she said to me in those moments i do not want to be here i want you i want you to remember me how i was i i this is not an existence i want and my poor dear mother we had to put her in the home in the end and she managed to escape she found a way out of that home and she lay down and died in the garden oh my goodness it was worthy of an SAS rate it was extraordinary because she was determined that she wanted to go out in her own terms and that requires immense courage and I I think that's the way I feel I I understand other people's fears but I would like to hope

that the right of a person to decide their own fate could override that It's been so wonderful to speak to you, thank you so much for coming on and congratulations on such an amazing

column for so many years that I think has changed perception for so many people. I wish you well. That's Melanie Reid. Check her last column. Check them over the past 15 years, why not? Spinal column which has been in the Times and also

of course her book as well that I mentioned, The World I Fell Out Of. All the best. We'll chat to you on whatever your next chapter may be. Thank you. Let us move on, on Woman's Hour now, to the woman who is sitting opposite me in studio. It is Baroness Lola Young of Hornsey,

who has spent the last 20 years as a crossbench peer in the House of Lords, championing social justice causes such as the fight against modern slavery and promoting ethical fashion. So that is, I think you like to say independent peer. Would that be the correct translation of a crossbench peer? I think that's right because crossbench is a slightly obscure term to use. It is actually where the benches cross. Absolutely, but people don't know that who've not been in

the chamber so I think independent works well. We could also talk about you being one of the first black women to enter the House of Lords. Your memoir Eight Weeks reflects on your childhood in the care system during the 50s and 60s, also the challenges you faced moving between foster care and

children's homes and what you learned from accessing your care records some 50 years later. It's a fascinating story. Very readable. I thought a bit of page turner. I feel like I know you already, even the first time we've met. Why did you decide to write this book? Oh, many, many reasons, really. And sometimes it feels like, you know, it depends on the moment I'm thinking about it. But I think, obviously, I wanted to get my story out. And I was encouraged to do so by friends and colleagues once they knew the bare bones of that story. And I thought, well, if I'm going to do this, I don't want it to be only about me, which sounds funny for an autobiography, because obviously that's what it is. But there is a way, I think, which I've tried to do, which is to say, these are my experiences. We still have a big issue around children and young people in the care system.

And some of the issues and experiences that I've had appear to me to be still prevalent today. So let's continue and augment the conversation we're having around this subject so that we can actually do something about it. And yeah, so that was one of the big reasons why I wanted to get it out there. Okay, well, let's go back first, and then we'll go forward to what has changed or what still needs to change in the care system. In the book, it begins by you receiving this parcel after your mother's death. Do you want to tell me what was, and our listeners, I know what was in the parcel because I've read the book, but what was in the book and its significance? Yes, it's a moment when this little package arrives and I don't recognise who's written it or anything.

And when I open it up, I describe it as, I think of it as being quite a theatrical moment, maybe because of my experience in theatre, but tumbling out of the envelope came two passports. And when I opened them up, I saw they both belonged to my mother. One was Nigerian passport, one was a British passport. And this was the moment. It was quite a moment, actually, just seeing the passports. But also, it was the first time I'd seen a photograph of my mother ever, I think. I can't remember ever having a photograph of her. And at this point, you were what age? When I opened the package? I guess in my coming up, yeah, 50s. I'm hopeless. Yeah, but about early 50s.

Yeah, yeah, I guess so. Which is extraordinary. Yes, it is extraordinary. I mean, I had met my mother, but the last time, so I saw her when I was seven or eight. And that was the time when she returned to Lagos in Nigeria. And then I didn't see her again until I was in my late 20s. So I'm going to go even one step further back because you went into care,

the care of a woman called Daisy Vince, when you were eight weeks old, hence the name of the memoir. So what caused you, in what you know, to be put into care at that early age? Yeah, it's a difficult one. And you mentioned earlier about the care records. And that's part of the reason why I was quite keen to get them. But maybe we'll come to that. But basically, what had happened was that my mother and father had been together. Who were Nigerian.

Who were Nigerian. And my mother came here to study. My father stayed in Nigeria for a while. And whilst he was in Nigeria, he had a relationship with another woman and had a child with her. And I think my mother didn't know about that. So when he came over here on his own to London, he hooked up again with my mother and she got pregnant with me. So I have a half sibling who's two years older than me. And so, and it seems like maybe my mother was experiencing some kind of mental distress at the time, I don't know, left on her own eventually. Or quite quickly, I think, because the woman that my father had married in Lagos then came over to London sort of thinking, what's going on here? So, yes, so on somebody's recommendation, I was handed over to Daisy. And what was that like? What was that like? Gosh, even now I find it really difficult to articulate because,

you know, people say, oh, were you happy or were you sad? Was it a good time or was it a bad time? Did she love you? Did you love her? And yes and no to all of those things. So, you know, the thing about love is quite important, obviously, for children and love and trust and security. And I guess I had a sense of some kind of security, but not enough to make me think, oh, well, I know I'm going to be here forever. Obviously, I could see she was old. She was in her 60s, I think, when you came to her as a little baby. That's right. Yeah, she was in her mid 60s, I think. So I kind of knew somewhere in my head that she wasn't going to last forever. But also, I was fearful that I might be sent off to a children's home, a dreaded children's home, which, you know, in those days felt like Dickens.

That happened to other, I'm putting this in inverted commas, naughty children. Yeah, exactly. So, you know, yes, they weren't known as places of refuge and security and love. They were kind of a place to put children that you didn't know what else to do with. You paint such a picture of North London at that time, Islington. Daisy did die when you were 14. And then you went into another phase of being looked after um how how was that transition i felt so much for this little girl who wasn't given space to grieve both your parents at that point had returned to nigeria you had made a decision not to go with them because these were really practically strangers absolutely yeah yeah um that 14. That 14 year old girl. I know. And,

you know, there's this question that people do ask now, what would you say to your 14 or 15 year old self? And it's a very difficult question for me, because obviously, you know, with hindsight, I could say lots of things. But at the time, you're right, this thing about grieving, and having that sort of sense of bereavement. It was as if I didn't have an entitlement to grieve or I wasn't entitled to feel bereaved because I wasn't a blood relative. My parents hadn't really contributed to my upkeep. And so, you know, who was I to claim, you know, this kind of position with Daisy. So as far as I can recall, I wasn't invited to the funeral. It's my social workers that noted when I eventually got my care records that these people don't understand that Lola needs time and space to grieve. So it was like, oh, Daisy's dead, now what shall we do with you?

And this, which, you know, there's even a story on the BBC News website today about children being, having to move so many times to different places. You roll your eyes at that because this is something that's been going on, you know. Much worse today, sorry to interrupt you, but it's potentially much worse. I mean, I was kind of absolutely bereft because I was moved out to Hertfordshire, which in the great scheme of things now doesn't seem that far away. But it was a difficult journey. But I'm reading like you of children that have been moved 300 miles away. I mean, so you've got all of that disruption to their lives, all of that sense of abandonment. And how should we compound that? I know, let's send them miles away from anywhere that they know or any people that they know. So that is definitely one aspect that you would like to see changed. With the care notes, when you eventually got them,

it did take years, is my understanding, for them to arrive. Tell me what you found and how that felt. Yeah, well, they took a little while to arrive, but I must say my ambivalence towards them, you can read it actually between the lines because I'm, shall I pursue this or shall I not? You know, I could have really kind of banged on about it at Islington. Having said that, I wasn't that optimistic because we're talking about being brought up in the 50s and 60s. So I was thinking, well, obviously it's before computers and it's a long time ago.

And my friend had made this remark about, she was aware of one office that held records where it had been flooded by a washing machine that had leaked and therefore all those records were destroyed. And I thought, well, one of those could have been mine. So I was a bit ambivalent about it as well as for what would I find in those records. Of course. And what did you find? I found a lot of interesting things that corroborated what I'd remembered, but also some things that slightly changed my perspective on the people that had been around me. Also, surprisingly,

I found letters that I had written to the social worker at the time, and I hadn't anticipated that at all, as well as finding a rather distressing letter or a letter that distressed me hugely, that had come from somebody who had been a prospective foster parent, but it for obvious reasons, when you read the letter, that didn't happen. So it was a mixture of things that I found. I found answers to some things, more questions, and no answers at all to some other things. It's like a jigsaw. We did contact Islington Council. They said we do all we can

to support care experience people to access records relating to their care. Compared to today's comprehensive and chronological record keeping systems, care files from the 60s were collated and recorded

in a very different and variable manner. The experiences of Baroness Young reinforce the importance of keeping records and capturing the chronology, important events and routines in the lives of our cared for young people. This helps them gain a deeper

understanding of their life and history, strengthening their identity. We very much welcome applications from anyone who is in our care as a child. We do everything we can to locate records from previous decades and provide support and advice. I agree with that, by the way, all of that.

And I wouldn't want to sit here and say Islington Council failed at all. That's not what I'm saying. And it was a difficult time because of the period in which, you know, I was in the system. So, yeah, it's things are, that is one area where things are a little bit better, I think. What else would you like to see happen

for looked after children now? Well, I think. What else would you like to see happen for looked after children now? Well, I'd like to I'd like to I mean, there are circumstances under which it might be desirable to to take a child from their environment and move them elsewhere. But I think that shouldn't be determined by the economics of it. And I think we've got a situation now where children's homes and again, you can read every day virtually of these instances where various types of children's homes are not really fulfilling their duty in respect of children and young people. much more help with things like what you do when you, what we call the care cliff. So when you're 18, which I wrote about from my perspective, it was like. Out. Absolutely. Out you go and find your own way. It's not quite as stark as that now.

But when I speak to young people who are currently in the system, they do say that. And for those of us who know what it's like to be 18 years old, if you have a child or a friend or whatever, who's that age, most parents, I think, would want to say, well, that person isn't mature enough to just go out in the world and fend for themselves. So it's the extent to which we can extend that support. And then just finally, I would say that the access to care records thing, as I say, I agree with Islington, but what sometimes happens,

not just with Islington, is that those records are redacted to an extent that you can't even read. What do they redact? So they redact things like, let's say, for example, I'm plucking out of the air. Let's say your mother had

very serious mental health issues. Well, clearly there'd be a duty to keep some of the air. Let's say your mother had very serious mental health issues. Well, clearly, there'd be a duty to keep some of that private. So like medical privacy supersedes the individual that could be in care. Exactly. So it's how do we get the right balance between the rights of the child or the former child to know and the rights to privacy of the parent or other related people? It is an ongoing conversation. Having Baroness Lola Young off Hornsey's voice, of course, adds so much. And your experience is documented in your new memoir

called Eight Weeks. As I said, I found it really engrossing, Reid. Thank you so much for coming in. Thank you. To the Woman's Hour studio. Anita, tomorrow on Woman's Hour, she'll be asking our schools that our academies doing enough

to support and accommodate children with SEND. Don't miss it. I'll speak to you again next week. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. What happens when at-home DNA tests reveal more than you bargained for?

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