Woman's Hour - Joan Armatrading, Spare Rib and Virago at 50, Defra Minister Victoria Prentis MP, Mermaids

Episode Date: June 7, 2022

The singer songwriter Joan Armatrading received an Ivor Novello Award for Outstanding Contemporary Song Collection in 1996. Best known for hits such as Love And Affection, Me Myself I and Drop The Pilot, she has released more than 20 studio albums. Later this week Joan will receive The Music Producers Guild Outstanding Contribution Award. She joins Emma to discuss her music and this latest achievement.50 years ago this month the first edition of the iconic feminist magazine Spare Rib was published. It set out to offer an alternative to existing women’s magazines at a time when the women’s liberation movement was challenging women’s secondary place in society. Also in that year - 1972 – and inspired by its founders, Rosie Boycott and Marsha Rowe, Carmen Callil founded Virago – the book publisher which still gives a voice and platform to female writers today. Tonight a party is being held at the British Library in celebration, and Emma is joined by all three women.Prime Minister Boris Johnson has won the backing of a majority of Tory MPs in a confidence vote despite a significant revolt against his leadership. He won 59% of the vote, meaning he is now immune from a Conservative leadership challenge for a year. In all, 211 Tory MPs voted they had confidence in the PM's leadership while 148 voted against him. We've since heard from a number of male MPs, but where are all the female MPs? Vanishingly few women from the Conservative Party have spoken publicly on this - especially from the rebel side. Emma is joined by Victoria Prentis, Minister of State for the Department for Environment Food and Rural Affairs.Every year HIV, tuberculosis, and malaria kill more than 5 million people. Much has been done to try to eradicate these diseases, and international donor funds are intent on curing them by 2030. The UK has historically been one of the main donors, but due to the covid-19 pandemic, priorities have shifted and some funds have been redirected. The Kenyan campaigner Maurine Murenga, who lives with HIV herself, is asking for the international community to bring their attention back to these deadly diseases. She joins Emma in the studio.If you happened to be strolling along the seafront at Plymouth at the start of the Jubilee weekend you may have looked down and spotted a very large gathering of mermaids sunning themselves. Pauline Barker organised the event to kick off celebrations in the city by the sea, and to try and break a Guiness world record - she tells Emma how it went.

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Emma Barnett and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Good morning, welcome to the programme. Welcome to Woman's Hour, where women who are seen, labelled as rebellious or difficult, are always welcome. In fact, actively encouraged and we have a number of them as guests today. Or certainly, that's what others have labelled them. I'm joined by Rosie Boycott and Marsha Rowe, the founders of the iconic feminist Spare Rib magazine,

and Carmen Khalil, who founded Virago, the book publisher which gives a voice and platform to female writers, because this year marks 50 years since both were created, and there's a party this evening. Perhaps in contrast, it's also striking to note how few of the Conservative rebels speaking publicly since the result of that no confidence vote last night, which the Prime Minister won, are female. You could be forgiven for thinking it was only men making up the 148 rebels who voted against the Prime Minister, who've been dominating the airwaves

ever since. We have invited a number of women on this morning from that side of it, if you like, but none have said yes. But you will hear from one of Boris Johnson's supporters, female supporter, I should say, a minister, Victoria Prentice, shortly. But my question to you today, staying with the idea of rebellious women or women labelled as difficult, has that happened to you? Why? Have you had to own it? Do you want to own it? How have you styled it out if you've had to? And what was it for? Tell me some of those stories, because I bet you weren't being that difficult at times. That's an educated guess. You can text me here on Women's Hour, at Women's Hour rather, on 84844. Text will be charged at your standard message rate. On social media, at BBC Women's Hour is how you

need to get in touch. Or email me through the Women's Hour website. I may have also had some of those labellings, those accusations at times. And I always say I've had to develop a talent for being disliked at times. That's i put it how about you also coming up on today's program the mermaids of plymouth i kid you not you may have missed this in all the pomp and pageantry of the jubilee celebrations but we wanted to make sure we heard from the woman behind what we think might be a record-breaking number of people dressed up as mermaids coming together. That is coming up, and the legendary singer-songwriter Joan Armatrading will be joining me live. But first, the Prime Minister, Boris Johnson, has won the backing of a majority of Conservative MPs in a

confidence vote, despite a significant revolt against his leadership. The Prime Minister won 59% of the vote last night, meaning he is now immune from a Conservative leadership challenge for a year, unless the rules get changed. In all, 211 Tory MPs voted that they had confidence in the Prime Minister's leadership, while 148 voted against him. It's also reported that the last person to have gone through this experience, one Theresa May, turned up to cast her vote wearing a ball gown and sequin encrusted heels. Apparently, she was off to a Jubilee dinner, but she made quite the entrance. And a few remarks were made about, I don't know, maybe revenge votes, maybe not.

Who can tell? We also did invite Theresa May onto the programme this morning. But again, that's not happened yet. In the last 12 to 14 hours since, we've heard from a number of male MPs. Where are all the female MPs? Certainly around this topic. Vanishingly few women from the Conservative Party have spoken publicly on this, especially, as I say, from the rebel side. Well, not from that side, if we're going to call it that,

is Victoria Prentice, Minister of State for the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs. Good morning. Good morning, Emma. I loved your intro. That is a great way to think about women, really empowering. Well, I do it every day. So welcome to Women's Hour, Victoria. I listen to you whenever I can. Well, that's very kind. And we're grateful for your time this morning. It has been quite difficult to get some women from your party to come to any microphone, let alone this one.

Well, frankly, Emma, you can always ask me. Women's Hour is pretty high up my list of priorities. Well, spare me my blushes just for now. But may I start by asking, or certainly the programme, I should say, why do 148 Conservative MPs have no confidence in Boris Johnson? I think what you need to do is step back from the whole. Yesterday was a horrible day for the Conservative Party. No confidence vote days are always horrible. You're making quite a habit of them as a party, aren't you? Well, certainly since I arrived, we seem to have had quite a few. I don't enjoy them.

I don't think any of my colleagues enjoy them. I think what we need to do now, though, is focus on the fact that Boris did win a majority of his MPs. He gave a very powerful account of what needs to be done, the changes that need to be made, how we need to move on from the horrors, frankly, of the pandemic and how we've got some really difficult issues to deal with at the moment with people's concerns about the cost of living, with the war in Ukraine. I'm very familiar with the news agenda. I'm also across that every day on behalf of our listeners. But can I just, sorry, with all due respect, could you answer my question? You want to move forward. 148 is not a small number. It's been compared, of course, to the number who went against Theresa May. It's bigger. It's also been put into historical context with other leaders.

Why do 148 Conservative MPs have no confidence in Boris Johnson? Well, with respect, I think you probably ought to ask them. I'm telling you why I do have confidence in the Prime Minister. Parties obviously are made up, particularly in this country where we have a broadly two party state of a wide coalition of people with different interests. And it's always been difficult for both major party leaders to coalesce support across that very wide spectrum. Come on. I mean, this is the most general answer in the world. You talk to people in the tea room, you're obviously somebody who's got friends in politics across whatever divides you're talking about within your own party.

You say, I need to ask them. Well, it's written down from some of them as to why they were doing it. Jesse Norman yesterday, former conservative Boris Johnson, loyalist, former member of his inner circle said, for instance, his response that Boris Johnson, looking at his leadership, had been presiding over a culture of casual lawbreaking. He then goes on to criticise the Rwanda policy at the moment with regards to what we're doing with those coming to this country. You do know some of the reasons and I want to get a sense from you about why you think so many of them went against it? Well, I think we've all rehearsed the reasons over the last few months. And certainly, the whole Partygate affair has been very difficult for many of us and horrible for our constituents, frankly, many of whom had

real experiences of bereavement, for example, during the pandemic that hurt them in ways that we can't begin to quantify. So I think it's right to say that my colleagues have come up with different responses to the problems that have engulfed the party over Partygate. My response was to listen very carefully to the evidence. I used to be a lawyer. That's my net response, if you like. It's what I do. And to listen to what the Prime Minister has said. I read the Sue Gray report very carefully. I didn't like some of what I read at all. I've talked to the Prime Minister about that both personally and in wider groups. I am prepared to accept his apology and given the wider news agenda, which I think is really significant actually at the moment, it's not

just a news agenda, it's a litany of real issues that we need to deal with. But on what basis as a lawyer has he said to you that this, as Jesse Norman puts it, this culture of casual law breaking, on what basis have you essentially forgiven him? Well, let's take the two great reports, which is the most recent and comprehensive report we've got of what went on in Downing Street. There were two things that concerned me in particular. One was that staff were feeling that they weren't able to raise issues of concern. And the other is a sort of culture of people drinking at work, which is not something that happens in my workplace or yours, frankly, I suspect, on a daily basis. Neither of those is necessarily a law-breaking issue, a legal issue, but both were matters of concern for me. I've been able to discuss them with the Prime minister. I'm prepared to accept his apology. But they're not the issues. Apologised directly to staff.

But they're not the issues. They're not the issues. With respect, though, right? They can be ancillary issues, but they are the issue, the issue of law breaking. We've got a prime minister who's issued a fine and that nobody was allowed to meet in that way at that time. You could have those issues outside of that time. You could have those issues

outside of Covid laws. You could have those problems with a culture of not being listened to and drinking at work away from the most draconian laws this country has lived under in peacetime. But actually the issue which people were booing about, that people are concerned about, look at the latest polls in terms of the actual Conservative supporters of the Prime Minister. If you look at a YouGov survey from last night, 36% of Conservative voters, never mind anyone else, at the most recent election think the Prime Minister should resign. The issue is that he broke the law and those around him, underneath him, broke the law, not drinking or staff not being able to raise issues. Why, as a lawyer, do you not have a problem with that? Or is it, which has been suggested this morning, that you are on the

government payroll and you and your colleagues do not have the backbone to stand up to your boss? Well, Emma, let's take you back for a minute to your introduction to this programme, which was about supporting resilient women with views to make their case. So let's let that happen. All right. I am in a party and indeed across the political spectrum in Westminster at the moment, there are many resilient, tough women who are perfectly capable of coming to their own conclusions about issues and making their case. And I think that's right. And we should support that. I obviously have read the same things as everybody else. I have not had access to everything the Met has had access to, but I have read the Sue Gray report.

I have given you my response to the Sue Gray report. I am prepared to accept the apology of the Prime Minister for what happened in Downing Street. And I am prepared to move on because I think that there are some really big problems facing the country. I do not think that people

have the appetite or time for the Conservative Party, which is the ruling party, to look in on itself. And I think we need to crack on with solving the cost of living crisis and helping the Ukrainians win that war. Why do you think it's been estimated

that 80% of those who voted against him are backbenchers? Hence the question about the payroll. Those who are on the payroll have found it in themselves to support the prime minister, i.e. they're feathering their own nest. That's the accusation. Nothing to do with women or men. That is the accusation that those around him lack the backbone to have a different view because of their own careers. What do you say to that? That's not my experience of

government. My experience of government is that it is perfectly possible for those both on and off the payroll to raise concerns at every level. I've never had a problem with talking to the Prime Minister. Sorry, if I may, you have just said you're concerned with the Sue Gray report, which concerns a time running right up to this period, was that those around him weren't able to do that. Well, that I was particularly concerned about, the cleaners and the security staff in Downing Street. I think you're now asking me about my MP colleagues.

I'm asking about both, really, the culture around this man and those who are on the payroll in connection to him. So you're saying in one part of his life, working life, people can raise concerns and the other they can't? My experience as a minister is that you can certainly, and I have, and I've been impressed by the way they've been dealt with, raise concerns on a number of issues. I am, however, very concerned.

So you trust Boris? Let me finish, Emma, if I might. Yes. I was very concerned by the Sue Gray report, by the concerns of perhaps staff with less loud voices than those on the ministerial payroll. Can we put it that way? Yes, you can. And I know that the prime minister was also appalled by that when he read that in the Sea Grey report. And I know that he personally took time to apologise to those staff. And he's taken steps in Downing Street to make

quite sure that that never happens again. That is important. How do you bring the party back together? Final thought from you. Do you think it can happen? Yeah, I do think it can happen. I think it's got to happen. I'm a proud One Nation Conservative. I always have been. I'm supporting the Prime Minister.

I know that many of my friends and colleagues who I've known for the last 30 years can also support the Prime Minister. We've got to work hard and we've got to listen to each other. And most importantly, we've got to listen to the general public and deal with their concerns. It's not about us, it's about them. We will see what happens. The rules could be changed, so not making the Prime Minister immune. The machinations of your colleagues and your party and how it works, we're getting familiar again with this. Just a final thought. Boris Johnson was asked by the Mumsnet audience last week why he seemed a question about being a habitual liar. Do you trust the prime minister? To borrow a phrase from the former Home Secretary, Amber Rudd, would you trust him to drive you home at night? Would you get in a car with him? Yes, I definitely get it.

I never have, but I would, if asked, get in a car with the prime minister. Victoria Prentice, Minister of State for the Department for Environmental Food and Rural Affairs. And a listener to the programme is always good to know. Thank you very much for your time this morning. Messages coming in about being labelled a difficult woman. And there's something, a theme there that the minister was warming to. Brace yourself, Emma, reads this message, I was labelled a difficult woman in my job as a teacher for complaining when my pay was cut without consultation, and that's just one example. I'm the daughter of a difficult woman who had opinions, and in my honest opinion, any woman

of my generation or my mother's, I'm 45, with an opinion or who dares to question anything is labelled as difficult. Hope it's changing for my daughters, reads this message. No name on that. Another one here. My first job at one of our major mobile network providers, I was seen as a bit of a rebel for suggesting that women should be able to wear trousers at work. This was in 1990. I quickly gained a concession that we could wear them in the office, but not out with customers. Heaven forfend. Then I turned to petitioning for having individual

computers rather than having to give our typing to a secretary. This was a company pioneering mobile data services. That's Vic, who's listening near Reading. Good morning. And Anna in York, we made ourselves very unpopular in the 70s and 80s, campaigning to set up women's AIDS refuges and then rape crisis centres. Naming the unnamed is never popular, but it was worth it. And a few, I have to say, coming in already with regards to those who've had subscriptions or used to have subscriptions for Spare Rib. Let's get to that, shall we? Because we are talking about the anniversary of Spare Rib, but also of Virago, the publishing platform, because the publishers, I should say, now 50 years ago this month, the first's liberation movement was challenging women's secondary place in society. And also in that year, vintage year, 1972 it seems for this, and inspired by the magazine's founders, Rosie Boycott and Marsha Rowe, who've just walked into the studio with me, Carmen Khalil founded Virago, the book publisher which gives the voice and platform to female writers that continues and flourishes to this day.

And tonight a party is being held at the British Library in celebration. It's good to have all three of you with me, two in the studio and Carmen online, as is the way it seems at the moment. A warm welcome to you all. Rosie, I actually thought I'd start with you if I can. Good morning. Hello, Emma. You were working for the underground press,

as it were. What made you and Marsha come together to start Spare Rib? Well, both Marsha and I were working for underground newspapers. I was working for something called Friends, F-R-E-N-D-Z. I'll have you know, it's a very important distinction. Marsha was on the much more famous Oz. Oz had indeed just been through the Oz trial. And we all started to realise, Marsha in particular, because she was the first person to set up group meetings, but we had also done a women's issue at Friends that being in the underground press was meant to be a wonderful alternative life for all where we'd all be free and happy. But in fact, what it meant for women was that we still did the typing,

still made the coffee with the added bonus of being expected to be sexually available 24-7 for basically anyone. So for the blokes, it was a fabulous deal. And for the women, you suddenly realized you were in yet another different kind of trap. And I think it's fair to say that when we met, the great thing about the first meetings, which Marsha will tell you about, was that we realised our worries and concerns were not just our own. These were common. The thing was nobody talked about them. And the unknown, actually, which was just coming through some of the messages there. Marsha, how did those meetings come about? Tell us about them um partly it was the um galvanization of the women's movement into sort of very slow awareness of yes we should do something and that in the underground press was male dominated so um i was living with louise ferrier who was partner with the Oz editor. And we just decided then, and I rang everyone, and they all came round that night.

And we didn't, in fact, talk about work. What we talked about was our private lives and how the sexual independence and sexual freedom of the 60s had left us in a really difficult position. Women had had children, they'd had to give them up. There were issues like abortion or, you know, health. And I mean, at the end of it, it seemed so sort of scary to be talking about these things. Everyone left. And Louise and I just sat there looking at each other and thought no one will ever speak to us again.

And then you put it down in ink on paper and And spare rib comes from, who named it, Rosie? Well, it was in fact named by, it was in fact named by Claude Coburn in a Chinese restaurant. And it was a joke. And it was a joke. It was a joke. And he held up this, literally, a spare rib.

And we had not got a particularly catchy name. And he said, you should call it this. And it was, of course, genius because it was both serious because it's Adam's Rib, but it was also eye catching. And I do think over the years that I've been in media, names matter, you know, that they give you a whole association. So it told people that, yes, we were serious, but also we were feisty. And we were right, I think is such a such a big feeling when I look back on it now, of feeling that you were in the right place at the right time and doing the right cause.

And there was there was very, very difficult for someone to argue with us at that moment. Carmen Khalil, good morning. Good morning. Thank you for being with us at this time. I believe you were you were helping with some of the publicity for Spare Rib. Yes, but I also did the publicity for Inc., the underground newspaper that Richard Neville was part of at the time of the Oz trial. I met Marsha there. And then when Marsha started Spare Rib with Rosie, I did some publicity for them in return for them doing an advertisement

for my book publicity company because I'd left publishing at that time because I couldn't stand working for lazy men anymore really that was some of it and I put in an ad that would that said anything outrageous suitably publicized so I did that they put my ad in and I did the publicity for them and then a couple of weeks after I saw the first issue, I thought, well, if they can do that for magazines, I can do that for books. And that's how it started. And the name Virago?

Well, Rosie came up with, we were sitting on the floor in my sitting room in Chelsea, I think it was. Yes, Chelsea. And we were going through a book of gods and goddesses, you know. You like to do. It was called Spare Rib Books. And the company that we got to finance our first books didn't like the name Spare Rib Books. They said we had to have a new name.

And so Rosie and I went through the thing. And of course, typical Rosie, she said, Baraga is by far the best. And I said, absolutely right. And on we went. On you went. And just to go back then to the magazine content for a moment, and Carmen, I'll come back to you. Who were you aiming it at, Marsha? As I say, we've already had a few messages from some of those who had a subscription, but who were you trying to get to? Women all around the country. Women's Liberation Movement at the time was very much ridiculed and misunderstood in the national press. The Women's Movement was tiny, just a few

hundred women. And when I'd worked on Oz magazine in Australia back in the early 60s, reading it for the first time opened my eyes that there was a new world from this very conformist, fairly racist Sydney as it was then. And I thought, well, a magazine just is out there on the newsstands for any woman, no matter what small village or isolated place that, you know, she would live in. And what you were writing, Rosie, what you were publishing was different to the fair at the time as well, wasn't it? Yes, the magazine market, I mean, this is before you have digital publishing. So it was very, very dominated. We had Woman and Woman's Own, who between them, I think,

sold four million copies a week. I mean, it was something quite extraordinary, the dominance of the notion. And every short story would end with the woman walking to the altar. And that was the kind of common thread, that life would be happy ever after because you'd landed your man. And a white wedding, of course. Of course, a white wedding. I mean, the whole nine yards. But that was what went through all the editorial and all the fiction.

And so in the initial stages, we did. I mean, if you look at the very early Spare Ribs, we did want to get away from being an underground newspaper, which, of course, if you remember them, they were very colourful. They had crazy cartoons, they were quite chaotic. So Spare Rib was beautifully designed by a woman called Kate Hepburn. It was very beautiful, tight face. It was quite, in comparison to the underground, it was quite serious. And we did have articles in like spare parts, how to change tyres, how to put up your shelves. We had things about how to make your own cosmetics, how to avoid the fashion trap. We had fiction.

We had a men's column for a while. So there was a... That got dropped, didn't it? It did get... All of these things did, and we had cooking, you know, make your own picnics. But all those things got dropped. But in that sense, I mean, certainly I, you know, we thought when Marcia said just now

this would be something that would be for women everywhere. We tried in a small way to model ourselves on the kind of fare that women were used to, but give it a feminist, you can do it. I do think it's a good idea. Everyone should be able to put up a shelf regardless. So that was how it came out. And we had pictures of women on the cover. Again, they weren't made up. They weren't stylised.

They definitely weren't wearing a white dress and getting married. Carmen, for you and book publishing, do you think if you hadn't published the women that you were publishing, I know you also did a classic series, do you think they would never have been found? I don't think that's quite the point I would make about what Farago achieved in that regard I think certainly the classics would not have been found because they'd been around forever

but I'd have to be rather tedious about book publishing to explain why that happened because if you think about the paperback revolution it started by Alan Lane and also I worked with all the paperback publishers of my generation the great ones but they were all men and they hadn't read the books I had read my mother had read and I knew those books existed and particularly um dare I say it Rosamund Lehman's The Weather in the Streets because every single friend I had who ever got pregnant had to get a second-hand copy of The Weather in the Streets because it was about an abortion. And that particular book went up and down all around my circle

of friends who got themselves into tricky situations before the abortion laws changed. Yes. Because I'm quite old now, you see. You had to do other things in those days before the abortion all changed. So I knew about books that they didn't know about. But they all taught me so much, those men I worked for all those years because I worked for them for about five years before I started Virago.

And so that part of the list I don't think would have happened. The other part I think is the concentration on women's writing and the concentration on their thinking. And also, I think, more important than all those things was the essential concern that I always had to work for writers because it's only writers who change the way we think and can help us achieve social change. And so it was not in a way that it was all about women.

It was all about social change too and the writer's contribution to that. We're getting a lot of messages come in, Carmen, from our listeners about that label difficult woman. And I know you may be quite familiar with it. It may have been, I don't know, dangled in your direction. Are you sure I didn't originate it? I think I did. Carmen, have you got any advice,

maybe even especially for our younger listeners, of which we have many, about how you do deal with that or own it if you are occasionally described like that or maybe very often? Could we delete occasionally? I think, to be absolutely honest, I think that I look forward to a generation where people like me aren't told they're difficult.

They can be told they're eccentric and bad-tempered, but difficult, difficult, difficult, difficult. That is still going on, and of the many chores i would pass on to the next generation i think we should start a complete column called difficult men in every single newspaper in the world we could actually start with boris erzov yesterday couldn't we difficult men but it's difficult women that you get labored with and you just have to put up with it well he did have a column for a long time and maybe I'll resume that at some point.

Was it called Difficult Men? It was just whatever was going on that week, I believe, a weekly column. Rosie, you wanted to come in at that point. Advice, is it? I just think all women should be difficult women because if you're not a difficult woman, that means you're putting up with the status quo

and quite frankly, women are still not equal. We don't have childcare. I see it in one of my jobs I chair feeding Britain. Women are the ones who go without meals, who are scrounging around looking for food, who are bearing the brunt end of this. And quite frankly, if we're not difficult, we won't get change.

So bring on the difficult women. I want to be a difficult woman for the rest of my life. Well, also, I mean, you are in the, I should say, you're a crossbench peer in the House of Lords. You're close to the seat of power in politics and holding to account in a different way. But when Spare Rib did come out, I mean, you were written about at the time. I was looking through what some of the other magazines and newspapers said. I mean, it was extraordinary, some of it, wasn't it, Rosie?

Well, I feel that it was very patronising on the whole. It's quite sexualising. Sexualising and patronising. And I think the patronising is a very interesting thing. And I look back on 50 years later, and that's because men didn't take women seriously. And they never thought women would mean what happened to us would mean they had to change their life. And if you trace it through, you get to now the hatred, the incels, all those things, because while being a woman has become extraordinarily different and wider, being a man is still a very narrow concept.

And it's we're paying the price of that in a lot of very unpleasant stuff. Marsha, did you want to add anything to that? Well, I would say that the first Women's National Conference that Rosie and I went to, they took a vote not to speak to the media because it was so hostile to the women's movement. And when you look back, the very first issue had pieces that really resonate right through to today. We had a feature, for instance, on women's group in Chiswick. They'd set up a house. They'd got it from the council for a peppercorn rent. They fixed it up themselves. And what did they find?

They found women coming into the house escaping violence at home and this was a really secret um thing then and you know if anyone talked about in public women were blamed so then later on maybe around 76 women started talking about being frightened of walking in the streets so we had reclaimed the night marches all around the country and then also women started taking self-defense casters so i mean actually each feature in that early spare rib you could see a thread continuing there was one about romantic novels and this timeless dream and you know as against reality and there was sheila robot and the feminist historian uh writing about that early you know argument that our name goes back to really

the temptation of Eve, the fall of man and, you know, women and guilt. Well, we had Sheila on not long ago. I had her on the programme and spoke to her then. And I have to say, messages coming in, I wanted to share with the three of you. Michaela says, Spare Rib and Virago were both hugely influential for the emerging women's movement and a lifeline for this feminist as a teenager growing up in the suburbs in the 80s. Annie says, I remember Spare Rib having great health

info. I remember reading about endometriosis in the 70s. I find it heartbreaking that people apparently know so little about it 50 years on. Amen to that. And those green spines of Virago. Woman's Hour is telling my life this morning. A spare rib anecdote from another listener.

I lived in Blackheath. I went into a posh bookshop to buy my spare rib. Pretentious salesperson suggested I looked in the cookery section. They've come a long way, hey? There is no spare rib anymore. When did it end, Rosie? 93. Or Marsha? 93. Okay. But there is still virago.

Carmen, it's still going strong. And I suppose for you, it's not achieved everything in terms of the power balance between men and women, but it's achieved a great deal. I think it's achieved a very great deal. And I think it's also moved into a different world now, where it encounters and works for things like Black Lives Matter, transgender issues, all the new issues of young women today. I think it's been a triumph really, not just mine, but all the women who worked for Virago over the years. And I'm terribly proud of them and I'm very happy that it's still going

because I got an awful lot of flack for running it as a business. You know, I was a boss. And you weren't supposed to be a boss you were meant to be a collective but i was determined virago would survive to continue to change the world for women because the point about changing the world for women is that it changes the lives of their men their children their and everything else on the planet women's contribution has to go on and become even stronger i have a feeling we'll be talking again carmen khalil it's lovely to have you on the

program thank you very much and marcia rowe i'd love to have you back rosie boycott same to you i'm sure you will be but for now you've got to go party later i believe so uh enjoy indeed thank you thank you to thank you to all of you uhing 50 years since the founding of Spare Rib and Virago. What messages we're getting in. Another one here saying, I had a subscription for Spare Rib 50 years ago. It came with a Santana LP. Wish I'd kept my copies of the magazine.

Quite a few people saying that. And difficult women messages galore. One here, my daughter works in the most misogynistic environment possible. She stands up for herself and is definitely seen as a difficult woman. I am so proud of her. Sally, another message. I was brought up in a family with old fashioned views.

I was told that there is nothing a woman would want more than to get married and to have children. And frequently heard my mother saying of strong women, she'll never get a husband. She's far too opinionated. Sally, thank you very much for that message. And so they continue. Please keep them coming in on 84844. Now, every year, HIV, tuberculosis and malaria kill more than 5 million people. Much has been done, of course, to try to eradicate these diseases and international donor funds are intent on curing them by 2030. The UK has historically been one of the main donors, but due to the COVID pandemic, COVID-19, priorities

have shifted and some funds redirected. The Kenyan campaigner Maureen Marenga, who lives with HIV herself, is asking the international community to bring their attention back to these deadly diseases. She joins me in the studio this morning. Maureen, good morning. Good morning. Thank you for being here. Why is it so urgent to eradicate HIV, malaria and tuberculosis? Let me take you back a little. During the late 90s and early 2000 when I was diagnosed with HIV there was no treatment and it was a very very blunt picture for women and girls because most of us are the ones who went to the clinic for services and were diagnosed with HIV. And we were sent away from our homes because it was assumed that we brought the virus home.

And so without treatment, it was a point where we were staring at death. I was given six months to live because I was expectant with my child. And without any intervention, I survived the six months. I had my baby and unfortunately he got the virus as well because there was no intervention. So it was a very bleak moment, very stigmatizing because families and friends would not stay near you. People didn't have adequate information. And HIV was branded as the disease of the promiscuous. Like you really had to have had a million partners or something to get HIV. Not a million really, but many partners.

But that was how it was. Yeah, that is how it was passed on. And we didn't have jobs. Nobody could employ you without without testing uh you for hiv and if you tested positive then they didn't employ you so we survived on handouts but we didn't think we needed to live long so we we my my dilemma was if i died and left my child he would really really be stigmatized and there would be no one to take care of him. And if he died and left me, I would be very lonely. So it was really a chicken and egg situation that was very, very difficult. But people died. People died in huge numbers until at a time when Global Fund came. It was really not

very easy death, like someone taking care of you. It was dying when people have actually separated from you. It was very lonely. It was very shameful. It was very painful death. And what we realized later is that we died of TB. People died of TB and it was assumed that it was AIDS. So they did nothing about it. But fast forward, some of us survived that. We survived the scaring moments and Global Fund came. So we were able to access treatment. We are here. And science has proven that if someone living with HIV takes the antiretroviral treatment,

they're able to prevent new infections. So if everyone who had HIV got treatment, then not only will we live, but we will also prevent new infections. TB is nowadays diagnosable. We can diagnose TB quickly and cure it. And malaria is curable. So it is true that we can end these diseases as epidemics by 2030. And as a campaigner, you are trying to bring the spotlight back to this because do you feel that the pandemic, the COVID-19 pandemic has meant it's gone away and there isn't that same push

that there was before or was it already not as ardent or focused as it should have been? We were actually moving towards a good direction before COVID. And with the science that we have, we were very optimistic. I was particularly very optimistic that I would see an end to this epidemic in my lifetime. Something that if you told me 20 years ago, I would not believe. Really? But COVID came and it was the new kid in the block, all the attention given to it, the last one. And so a little focus was shifted off these other epidemics. Then we lost track.

We lost track of where we are. We have missed a lot of people we would have got and put on treatment. And so it is time that we need to refocus because these epidemics have no boundaries. There's a statement here from our foreign office, our foreign and Commonwealth Development Office, which says as one of its largest donors, the UK aid to the Global Fund is actively fighting malaria, AIDS and tuberculosis around the world. The Global Fund that you were talking about, of course, the UK has been a steadfast supporter of the Global Fund investing 4.1 billion in the organisation to date. Does that tell the story for you at the moment? Yes it does and I think UK is a global leader in terms of global solidarity to end the epidemics and many countries are looking up to UK. Whatever direction the UK will make

in this replenishment year for the Global Fund will determine what other countries that look up to UK will do and the ripple effect will be on our lives whether we'll continue having hope to stay, raise our families, do our work and be the women of substance we are meant to be. Or we will go back to hopelessness. So it really, really is important. Are you asking specifically, while you're here in the UK, are you asking for more funds? Yes. Because of the COVID effect, we went off track. So we need that 30% increase to bring us back on track

to ending diseases as epidemics by 2030. And what's your understanding from those you've spoken to? Is that possible? It's a mixture of feelings. There are people who are very optimistic and there are people who are saying it's really, really something that is an unreasonable ask. But I think with the knowledge that we don't want the disease coming back to where we had eradicated them, if you know, they will spread if we don't deal with it. So I think we in the spirit of saving lives, of ending these epidemics, it is something that people really need to push to get. Maureen Marenga, thank you. Good to talk to you. All the best. Talking there, of course, about a focus that some feel has shifted or changed with regards to the pandemic.

Now, my next guest made her name in the early 70s, a black woman with a rock guitar at a time when the music industry couldn't imagine such a thing. Joan Armatrading is a three time Grammy Award nominee. And in 96, she received an Ivan Novella Award for Outstanding Contemporary Song Collection. The singer, songwriter and guitarist is best known for hits such as Love and Affection, Me, Myself, I, Willow, Drop the Pilot and Lover Speak. In a recording career spanning nearly 50 years, she has released more than 20 studio albums as well as several live albums and compilations. But I'm open to persuasion I say, drop the bottle, try my balloon Drop the monkey, smile my perfume Drop the mahou, I'm the easy rider

I'm thinking more and more Of what we had before Before we lost it at the shopping stake I want to be by myself I'm in this world alone Me, myself, I Me, myself, I Me, myself, I Me by sofa. Me by sofa. Me by sofa. Joan Armatrading and later Joan will receive later this week

the Music Producers Guild Outstanding Contribution Award. Joan, good morning. Joan's just stepped out of the room. Can I take a message? Oh, I hope that is you, Joan. Oh, gosh. You absolute joker I thought that was a voicemail I was getting good morning it's lovely to have you even if you've just tricked me and made my heart jump

about five beats but you are a woman of beats and rhythm oh how are you feeling about this award uh no it's it's absolutely fantastic and um you know to i've been producing myself now since 1986 i think 85 86 so it's great to in 2022 to suddenly be acknowledged as uh somebody who does that and it's um yeah it's you know you know when people give you an award there's quite there's a system to it you know somebody says why don't we give joan this and somebody says actually no i don't think we should and somebody else says yeah i think she's the right one and then somebody else says yeah let's give it to her and then somebody else says yeah let's go with that and they go through that process and in the end they stick

with it that's quite a thing because there's all kinds of other people that they could give this to so when you're given an award of any kind it's a big compliment and I do hear people saying they're not interested in awards and I think well I think you need to take a lie detector test because you know it's it's a compliment yes of course and and i suppose a big you know hallmark of your career has been doing it your own way whether it's producing yourself when people suggested to change your name you know keeping going when when those around you try to to make you more like what was already around yeah i think it's important to have a sense of self. And I didn't realise that it was unusual to have a sense of self. It's only because people tell me that it's an unusual thing. But I

think it's, it's a good thing. And I, I only know me as this. So when people tell me to do something that I think for myself is not a good idea then I don't kind of fall into fall into that not that I don't listen to people that's not what happens I you know this it's important to listen to people get input uh not just have a kind of a one-track mind and think you're right about everything because nobody's right about everything. But as I say, it is important to have a sense of self. I am reminded that we've been talking throughout the morning about when women have been labelled as difficult and how one deals with that.

We've got lots of messages from our listeners. I imagine that's perhaps come in your direction at times in the music industry. I have no idea because I just do my thing. Stuff just goes over my head if I'm not interested. Well, that's a very healthy way to be. I mean, have you got any advice around that? Have you always been like that?

Have you had to develop that? No, that's, as I say, I only know me as me. I don't know anything else. So when people say certain things like, oh, it's like, for instance, I don't drink, I don't know anything else so um when people say certain things like oh it's like for instance i don't drink i don't smoke and i swear i never have done those things but that's only because that's me i don't i'm not interested in any of those things so if somebody says well why don't you or why don't you try this or why didn't you because i don't want to i don't feel any

pressure you know if i felt pressure then i'd probably do it but i don't i don't feel those kinds of pressures because i know that's not me so when they say change your name i love that name there's no way i'm going to change it's a fabulous name. I don't think anyone would argue with that, especially now. In terms of language, words, it's incredibly important to you and your lyrics. I mean, some of them, you know, particularly stay in people's minds. For instance, I'm not in love, but I'm open to persuasion and many others. Where and how do you come up with those? Do you have a place you write how does that come to you I wonder myself where and how I come up with some of these some of these lyrics but I think what got me into writing was um when I was younger I loved going to the library and you'd find me in the library

I don't know that's the first place to look for me if I'm not at home or at school or something. And I would read all these beautiful books with wonderful words like Dickens and Shakespeare and Mark Twain and all the classic stuff. I'd read all of those and the words were great and I think that's what really got me into just appreciating how words were put together and the sentiments of them when it comes to how I come about my words I'm generally going from observation I'm looking at people and how they go about treating each other. Somebody actually might say a phrase that I'll use. Somebody might say, nobody said I'm not enough, but I'm open to persuasion. That's what I came up with. But somebody once said to me, look at that gentle rain. And that phrase is in a song because it just, that moment it just captured me so it just depends

i always like to quote mark knopfler as well he has money for nothing and he was in a hardware store in america and the guy who was one of the workers there was looking at the television and mtv was on and the guy said look at that that. That's not working. That's money for nothing. So he did and does what I do. You listen, you observe, you watch, you're present. And it's amazing what you can come up with and what you can discover when you're present. Let's hear a clip of Already There,

which is from your latest album, Consequences. As I bathe in your eyes, like a ship in the sea, travelling billions of miles, I float endlessly into your arms. And in your arms, in your arms, you lifted me. I was already there. Already there and so in love with you I was already there I was already there

I'm liking that, Joan Armatrading. I wish I could play a bit more, but we're not a music show per se. I have to say, Mark's written to say, I've been a fan of Joan Armatrading since 1978 when I bought her album in my first year at college and I played it so incessantly that the mature student across the corridor from me knocked on my door to ask what it was I was playing as he loved it too. There you go Joan, normally it's like can you turn it down? So that's the fan. Joan, congratulations again on the receiving the Music Producers Guild

Outstanding Contribution Award, a great testament to you and your work. And it's lovely to have you on the programme. Thank you very much. Thank you. And I'm really happy it wasn't a voicemail. Joan Armatrady, ever the joker, ever the creative there. Lovely to hear her voice and of course, hear some of those songs that so many of you are remembering as well. I did promise you a bit of mermaid action. I don't like to disappoint because if you happen to be strolling along the seafront at Plymouth

over the Jubilee weekend, right at the start of it, you may have looked down and spotted a very large gathering of mermaids sunning themselves. It was a beautiful day when they convened. Pauline Barker organised the event

to kick off celebrations in the city by the sea and joins me now and perhaps break a record. Pauline, good morning. Good morning. Welcome to the programme and this caught my eye. I saw an image of what you had created last week and thought, what on earth is going on? What was going on? Oh, it was absolutely fabulous. The plan was to set the Guinness World Record for the largest gathering of merpeople. So we needed over 300 people dressed as mermaids, mermen, merchildren to come and congregate around the beautiful Tinside Lido in Plymouth. And we did get 378 people, Murrah people. So unofficially,

we have broken the world record because we needed over 300. Right. And it was just such a fabulous, joyful, colourful, noisy, spectacle of an event. It was marvellous. The photos are beautiful.

You've done a pretty good job of describing it there but do people have to make uh a fin or what did they do yes yes um well the idea of the event was it was just for fun it's a community event bring people together we've we've been separated for a while so it's a fun event to bring the community together to make it inclusive so everyone could come along didn't matter who you were disabilities and whatever um but also wanted to make sure that people could afford to take part because mermaid tails the proper ones are absolutely amazing but they can be a little bit pricey so I put my thinking cap on I put my creativity cap on which is a very very small hat I have very small creativity skills and I devised a way to make homemade mermaid tails from charity shop dresses that

could then be upcycled recycled fabric was used sparkles sequins glitter a lot of glue gunning went on a lot of sequins and safety pins were involved but yes people did make a marvelous array of fabulous sparkly sequiny colorful mermaid tails amazing absolutely amazing incredible can you swim in them and these are sensible grown-up women that were doing it so much to children. I never doubted it. Of course this was what you were spending your time doing. Can you swim in them?

In the professional ones, yes, you can swim in them. In the homemade ones, probably not so much so. But you can dip your tail in the water and have a little flap around and look absolutely gorgeous. In the proper ones, as you call them, the professional ones. I didn't know such things existed. I'm learning a lot this morning. This programme teaches a great deal. You can swim in them. Have you tried that?

Yes, yes. It's not uncommon to see me out swimming in Plymouth Sound dressed as a mermaid. And I have quite a few friends who also enjoy swimming as mermaids. And if there's a yacht or a boat around, I have been known to just pop up and ask them if they maybe have a glass of champagne for me. You're my kind of woman, Pauline. I mean, I'm not sure I'd be out swimming, you know, in cold seas or at any point, never mind dressed as a mermaid. Is it hard to swim with one of these fins on? Yes, it is. You do need to be a confident and competent swimmer right because when you're swimming in your tail you're basically swimming with your legs tied together right so you do need to know what you're doing and be able to float and yeah you do need to

be competent in the water to be able to do this. But you can get mermaid lessons. There is such a thing. What? Okay, right. This sounds like something we might need to explore a bit more. There are mermaid instructors. There are mermaid tutors. You can find yourself a local group which will teach you safely how to swim as a mermaid. Pauline, how did you get into this? I know this is the motivation for a community event,

but what first made you think, I want to go and swim as a mermaid? I do a a lot of swimming I do a lot of swimming in the sea I do wild swimming I do cold swimming I do ice swimming I go all over the world doing swimming and this is just another example of how you can enjoy yourself in the water. I love it. Absolutely love it. When will we know if you have officially broken it? When will be the confirmation? It's going to take a little while because wrangling with the paperwork to send to Guinness is rather stretching my organisational skills, but I'm working through it. But it was going to take two or three weeks, I think, before we actually hear officially.

Well, I will await the official breaking news on it. And people can look up. I'm sure if you're kind enough to share a photo, we'll be able to share it on the Woman's Hour website. But people can also look it up to see the spectacle. Pauline Barker, thank you very much for making time out of your mermaid schedule. Thank you. Lovely to have you on.

A message here to Woman's Hour. How wonderful to hear Joan Armatriding wickedly wrong footing the BBC. I will be soon 73 and her famous album track record in cassette form contain the anthems of my youth. Not only that, they've stayed with me to this day and I still sing them to myself. These songs will never age. They're part of me and part of my generation. Bless you, Joan, reads this message. Rossi in Mexico says this is my first time listening to your programme. Welcome. And it's great. I'm enjoying every single topic. I've also been labelled as a

difficult woman. I'm from Mexico and in Mexico and other Latin American countries, girls are raised with a Spanish saying, you look prettier when you keep your mouth shut. It's challenging, but if we kept quiet, society would never change for future generations. Brackets. Also, it's my birthday today. Well, happy birthday from all of us here at Woman's Hour. Lovely to think of you listening in Mexico, not keeping your mouth shut. And just to go back, yesterday I asked you about surprising things in your handbags.

So many responses. And we had a few more left over. I always carry a jar of my favourite gooseberry jam in my bag to give to anyone I consider worthy enough to give it to. The Queen would be a recipient. Another. I keep a tuning fork at the bottom of my handbag. I run a number of choirs.

And you never know when you might want to encourage people to sing. And so they carry on. Thank you so much for your company today. Back tomorrow at 10. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Thank you so much for your time. Join us again for the next one. Uncanny is back. The hit paranormal podcast returns with a summer special that will chill you to the bone. It was a real dream holiday, really. The family trip of a lifetime becomes the holiday from hell.

Whoever was in that room wanted to do us harm. They wanted to frighten us. The Uncanny Summer Special. Out now. What do you think was in that house? Six very frightened tourists and something else that didn't want us there.

Subscribe to Uncanny on BBC Sounds. I'm Sarah Trelevan, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth.

How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.