Woman's Hour - Joan Collins, Prof Sharon Peacock, Jacquie White & Mary Bousted, Kayley Inuksuk Mackay & Tiffany Kuliktana Ayalik, Usma Saeed

Episode Date: December 23, 2021

We talk to Dame Joan Collins about her new BBC documentary “This is Joan Collins” which is on air over Christmas. Not shy of voicing her opinions, she reflects on her life, relationships, and seven decades in showbiz. She’s also had a hugely successful literary career but the role which brought her most worldwide fame was playing Alexis in the TV series Dynasty – at the height of its success it was watched by 150 million people a week. Public health expert Professor Sharon Peacock who founded COG UK, the Covid-19 Genomics UK consortium, tells us about their work tracking mutations and variants of concern. They have been hugely successful in this, and were responsible for identifying the Alpha variant last December. Sharon joins us to discuss genome sequencing, the threat posed by Omicron and how she went from dental nurse to microbiologist.As schools shut for the Christmas break, the government head teachers and trade unions are contingency planning for widespread absence due to Omicron in the New Year. We talk to Jacquie White the General Secretary of the Ulster Teachers Union about calls for retired teachers to return to work to plug the gaps.Music from Inuit throat singers Kayley Inuksuk Mackay and Tiffany Kuliktana Ayalik.And foster parent Usma Saeed tells us how she tries to make every Christmas magical for the children she looks after. Being Muslim she doesn’t normally celebrate the festival herself but now she’s got the tree, the stockings and Santa’s mince pies at the ready. Presenter: Chloe Tilley Producer: Lisa Jenkinson Studio Manager: John Boland.

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Chloe Tilley. Welcome to Woman's Air from BBC Radio 4. Hello, welcome to the programme. Good to have your company. Now, we have some Hollywood stardust on the programme today as Dame Joan Collins joins us to speak about her new 90-minute documentary on the BBC. We're going to be talking career, love and cancel culture, all with her in the next few minutes. Now, we've talked a lot on Woman's Hour in recent months

about a government consultation looking into gender health inequality. More than 100,000 people shared their experiences and now a women's health ambassador is going to be appointed. Now, many of you told us, and indeed the consultation, that you feel you aren't listened to by health professionals. ambassador is going to be appointed. Now, many of you told us, and indeed the consultation, that you feel you aren't listened to by health professionals. So what difference will it make to women's experiences in the NHS? We're going to speak to the Minister for Women's Health. Also, I want to hear from you this morning if you are a retired teacher. We know the government has put out a call to former teachers to return to the classroom to help ease the burden of absences

due to Covid. But supply agencies say delays in DBS checks mean many won't be ready to return at the start of the new term. What I want to know from you is, would you be prepared to come out of retirement to go back into the classroom? Or do you worry about exposing yourself, exposing your family to risk? Let me read you this. Leslie Piercy taught in secondary schools in Yorkshire and the northeast of England for more than 30 years. She retired in 2018 and she told the BBC she certainly would not go back. It's far too dangerous in schools at present and I'm not prepared to risk my health of bringing COVID home to me or my husband.

It's really offensive to expect retired and hence older and potentially more vulnerable people to return to teach in schools. So would you? Are you returning to the classroom to help try and keep children in school? You can text WOMEN'S HOUR on 84844. Text will be charged at your standard message rate. On social media, it's at BBC WOMEN'S HOUR, or you can email us, of course, through our website. Now, as you heard in the news, the Omicron variant may cause milder illness than the Delta variant. So we're going to be speaking to Professor Sharon Peacock. She is the woman who's been leading the way in identifying variants of concern throughout this pandemic.

And for a bit of festive fun, we're going to hear from Inuit throat singers enjoying a revival thanks to TikTok. But let's begin by talking to an actress who's not shy of voicing her opinions. Now, Dame Joan Collins is reflecting on her life, on relationships and seven decades in show business, in her own words, in a new BBC documentary. Now, we mustn't forget, she's also had a hugely successful literary career. But the role which brought her most worldwide fame was playing Alexis in the TV series, well, I would say Dynasty, but I know James says Dynasty, so we will talk to her about that in a moment.

It was at the height of its success, get your head around this, it was watched by 150 million people every single week. Well, she joins us to talk to us now. But first, let's listen to a clip from that BBC documentary, This Is Joan Collins. This is a clip of her doing a round of interviews in the 1970s, reacting to the outrage around her appearing semi-naked in her 40s in the film The Stud. I don't think there's anything wrong with being beautiful, glamorous, well-dressed, well-groomed, or sexually

attractive. If God was kind enough to give you those things, then I think you might as well appreciate them and not hide your life under a bushel, as it were. Do you think that people now say when they meet you, they mentally undress you, say?

Not if they've already seen it. Why should they want to do it again? This is the peg that you are hung up on. And I'm not desperately trying to escape it, you see. I'm not saying, no, no, I'm not that. I will now wear my dowdy skirts and I will take off my makeup and scrape back my hair. I'm not going to do it because I like the way I am. I'm delighted to say that Dame Joan joins me now. Good morning.

Good morning. How are you? I'm very well, thank you. And I'm delighted you can be with us. I just want to ask you about the reaction to that. How dare a woman in her 40s become semi-naked? That seems to be the message from those interviews. Were you surprised by that or not? Because it was the 1970s. I wasn't that surprised

because my father had warned me my father being a theatrical agent and being in the business since he was he was 14 he'd warned me about the disparity between men's attitude attitude towards men and men's attitude towards women particularly if if they were pretty. So I didn't particularly want to do the nudity. In fact, my sister Jackie and her husband Oscar and my husband, who were producers, had to do quite a bit of persuading to me to do it. But at the time, Jane Fonda was appearing nude. All kinds of other actresses died. And I was told, you know, you know, this is the norm now. Just do it. Now it's changed a bit, I understand. So actresses don't have to do it. I just saw Meryl Streep in a movie,

and she's completely naked when she gets off the plane. But then I found out that it's a double. It's interesting you talk about the norm because I'm interested to know what the norm was when you were particularly a young actress starting out. I mean, you were just out of your teens when you were contracted to 20th Century Fox. And I'm wondering how hard it was, bearing in mind, like you say, your dad talked about men being predatory. How challenging was it for you, particularly as a young actress, to deal with the advances, basically, of men at that time and the pressure you were put under? Well, first of all, it didn't just start when I went to Hollywood. You know, I had started the business at 16, and it started then.

And I coped with it by laughing a lot. Men cannot stand it when you laugh at them. And laughing a lot. Oh, look at that. I mean, don't be silly. You're not really going to think that you're going to get away with that, do you? I'm not. Or if not, then a stiff knee to the nether regions is always working.

Yeah, I had some close calls, I have to admit. And I did, I was raped at the age of 17. And because I was so stupid and so naive, I married the man. And he was a very famous actor at that time and somebody who I had admired. So it was, yeah, it was something I was able to get rid of because I have a theory that you don't dwell on things. Possibly it's because of my, you know, very young childhood during the war. You know, I was in London during the Blitz, and I was just turfed out to be evacuated at least seven times. And you were just told to get on with it, not to worry, not to think about it. You know,

if you're in some terrible little house in in london in outside of london and your mother's not there and it's just you and five other six-year-olds you don't know um you don't don't get upset about it don't bother it just push it to one side so i call myself in one of my autobiographies i call myself um you, the ostrich with my head in the sand. So I managed to get through life with a lot of things that have not gone well, which I talk about in the documentary, waking up the next morning with a smile on my face. Most of the time, not all the time. When you look back on your career, I mean, you were in this BBC documentary.

I mean, you do not hold back and we wouldn't expect you to, Joan Collins. That's not what you do. But things like, for example, you talk about Richard Burton. You talk about him being a Neanderthal man. You are very honest about your encounters with people who were not particularly kind to you. Yes, I was. I don't see the point in beating about the bush. You know, I'm not about to write a puff piece about him.

I wasn't that bad. It's the truth. I mean, first of all, you should see the things that have been written about me. I mean, talk about literal vile and vile, know sexist articles i mean somebody sent me one yesterday from the um from the 80s late 80s when i was playing i mean it was shocking i thought how can they get away with saying this but then again it was 30 odd years ago um i think things have changed now i think we uh we you know mind our p's and Q's. But what I said about Richard Burton was universally

known by all the press, by everybody around him. He was a drunk and a womanizer. And he made no bones about it. As I said to him once when he saw him coming out of a hotel room when we were on location in Jamaica and I said

oh Richard you'd go to bed with a snake, wouldn't you? And he said, oh, darling, look, it was wearing a skirt. So he was open about it. I didn't tell tales out of school, if you know what I'm saying. If you look back at some of the men you worked with, and you've talked about your experiences in Hollywood and how you had to laugh or knee them in the crotch if they were too persistent. If you think some of those were alive today, what would they have made of the Me Too movement, do you think?

Well, I think they would have been a lot more careful. Look what's just happened to Chris Noth. I mean, you can't do anything. I mean, who knows what he did? I mean, I know him and I others. So I think that men, certainly men in my business, have to be quite a bit more careful because we were abused. It's just that I happen to be a particularly tough person. So it did not fracture my life. And because you were such a tough person, do you think that is why you have achieved so much success for seven decades?

You are one of the few remaining survivors of that golden age of cinema. I know. I think it probably has to do with that, also hard work, also not believing in the star system. I mean, when I became a star, a big star during the time of Dynasty, I was told by a journalist one day,

Joan, what are you going to do if all this ends? And this was being on the cover of every magazine and paparazzi. And I said, well, it's not a question of if, it's a question of when, because fame doesn't last forever. And if you expect it's always going to be, you know, the star, it's not going to happen because it doesn't last. You know, to have a career that lasts 15 or 20 years in Hollywood is a miracle. So for me to have started, you know, at like 16, I mean and if you see my documentary you'll see me doing a little dance for uh British Gas in a commercial when I was 15 um I uh it's it's been a long time and um

it's been you know I've I didn't have a sugar daddy I I didn't have a trust fund. I had to make my own money. I had to feed my three children. I was a single mother after I got divorced. And I had three children to raise and feed and at school and look after and also work at the same time because it doesn't hang on. It doesn't, you know, money doesn't grow on trees. Oh, what a cliche, sorry.

Well, it's interesting you talk about money because I wanted to talk to you about Dynasty. I grew up watching it with my babysitter on the sofa. I was probably far too young, probably shouldn't have been watching it, but absolutely loved it. And I know, I mean, you were one of the early advocates for equal pay. You fought to get that equal pay and you won. It made headlines around the world, but then they just put you in fewer episodes. So they actually didn't have to pay

you any more money. I know. It was really shocking. I was quite upset. I did everything. I had lawyers, I had agents, and I said, I really do deserve parity with John Forsythe because he was always quite a bit ahead money-wise than Linda and me. And finally, the first day, I get this money, which is great, and I was really thrilled. And I went to the set, and the showrunner comes in, and he says, By the way, you're only in 10 episodes of the 20 this season. And I said, you are kidding me, aren't you? And he said, no. I said, why? And he looked very smug and said, well, we can't afford you now. So this was the last season of Dynasty. Linda had left. She couldn't stand it anymore. And several of the other actors had gone

over to another thing called the Colbys. So the public was getting very confused. One day there was me, not me, I refused to do it, but John James in the Colbys, and then the next day he was in Dynasty. And I think that the public got fed up with it. I think that ABC got fed up with it, and they cancelled us because our ratings plummeted. I mean, you had Dynasty, you see, without Linda, who didn't want to do it,

and without me. And sorry, I'm always very objective, but it wasn't as good. That was the ratings puller. I also want to ask you as well, if I can, about one thing which I know that has concerned you, does concern you. You've talked about it. The idea of cancel culture. We heard yesterday Maureen Littman came out saying that she felt cancel culture could wipe out comedy. And do you how much do you worry about it and indeed about how it could affect your career?

I don't worry about it. I think it's tragic that people can get cancelled for having an opposite opinion to one that is currently en vogue. And it's just closing down debates. It's closing down interesting conversations. I mean, why should everybody think the same way about everything? It's very boring, really. Dame Joan Collins, it's been an absolute pleasure to speak to you this morning. Thank you so much for your time. Thank you. I enjoyed it. Thank you very much. really dame joan collins it's been an absolute pleasure to speak to you this morning thank you so much for your time thank you i enjoyed it thank you very much uh this is joan collins is broadcast

on bbc2 at 9 p.m on the 1st of january 2022 we've had a tweet here saying joan is my spirit animal i embrace her ideas about being glamorous and well-groomed once I finish clearing up the cat vomit, of course. I'm sorry that that is your morning, but I'm delighted that Dame Joan has brightened your morning here on Woman's Hour. If you want to get in touch with us, it's 84844 on the text. Now, a women's health ambassador is to be appointed in England as part of government plans to tackle decades of gender inequality within the health service. The vision for women's health has been drawn up following government research that found at least eight in ten women have felt that they're not being listened to by healthcare professionals

and that services for specialities or conditions that only affect women are a lower priority than others. Well, more than 110,000 responses were received between March and June of this year in England, almost 100,000 of which were from individuals. There were 400 written responses from organisations. Well, we can speak now to Maria Caulfield, who is Minister for Women's Health. Good morning. Good morning. Now, it's a great headline, isn't it, to say there's a women's health ambassador after doing a government consultation where so many women have felt that they don't aren't listened to people just don't listen to them within the health

service but what will it actually do to tackle those health inequalities well you know we have held a consultation earlier in the year and over as you say over 100 000 women responded and this strategy is really just highlighting the concerns that they have raised themselves. And, you know, it's all through a stage of a woman's life, whether it's early on, whether, you know, we've heard from women, we've had backbench debates on things like endometriosis, where it can take eight years to get a diagnosis,

right through to women who are facing the menopause, who often go back for repeated appointments and are told that they're feeling a little bit down, they may be depressed. And actually what's going on is the menopause and there's things like HRT that can really help with that. So this is about making sure that those conversations are heard and that this is just the outline of our vision of these priority areas that women themselves have identified that then in the spring will put the meat on the bone to identify how we're going to kind of improve the experience for women throughout their life in terms of their health experience. Were you surprised that so many women are having such a bad experience with health professionals? Yeah, to be honest i probably was i mean particularly if you listen to the um hrt debate that we had in the house of commons in october how many women have been uh you know

who thought that they were either depressed or just not coping with life and so many hundreds of women uh contacted me after that debate to say they thought the menopause was just hot flushes and night sweats and didn't realize their aching bones, the fact they couldn't sleep at night, the fact that they were depressed, was actually all related to a biological process that they were going through. And it was such a relief. And we don't talk enough about women's health issues. I know it sometimes feels like we do. But, you know, I was really astonished at how many women felt, you know,

a lightbulb moment when we were talking about these issues in Parliament. So how will a women's health ambassador help somebody who, like you say, goes to their GP and wants to get help with the menopause or looking for a diagnosis of endometriosis, for example? How are those two things going to actually make a difference? So I think it's about keeping it high on the priority. So it is about raising these issues so women can identify, you know, with endometriosis, for example, it often takes 10 appointments to even get a diagnosis of endometriosis. And over a period of eight years, that is the average for most women, they're, you know, prime years for women in terms of their fertility. And so this has a huge impact on their lives, their families' lives.

And so having an ambassador will not just keep those issues high on the profile, but it'd be working with, you know, whether it's GPs, other healthcare professionals, women organisations to drive forward the objectives that we will launch in the spring around tackling these issues so that women at all ages of their lifespan will be able to get help and support. So whether it is with, you know, fertility issues, whether it's things like baby loss, whether it's osteoporosis when they're older in life, whether it's dementia, you know, it's really important that we flag to women that these are important stages of your life and there's health and and support there available much of this is already a nice guidance and it's about raising the profile and

giving women confidence to come forward to ask for help if they don't get help first time to come forward and ask again but that makes it sound like you're you're putting the the onus on women shouldn't it be a case that there needs to be a culture change, whether it's with GPs or nurses or whoever it is you go to see in the NHS? And that is going to take time, isn't it, to change a culture so that people listen to women more? And I'm presuming as well, there's going to need to be additional training, which once again, will take time. Yeah, absolutely. It is about changing the culture. And it's, you know, if you, this is part of the whole process. If you look at the menopause task force that we're setting up,

which is in response to the HRD debate that we had in October, you know, that is really going to set out not just in terms of changes that we need in terms of, you know, improving education awareness amongst GPs, but also about the workplace. You know, it's about saying to employers, women go through different stages of their life and they need help and support to get through that, whether that's when they lose a baby through miscarriage or whether that's when they're going through the menopause when they're older. So this is about culture change, but it's also giving the women confidence that they're not getting that response whether it's from a healthcare professional or an employer that actually um that that's not uh you know that there is help and support out there so this very much this is the first ever women's health strategy in england and i think i'm really excited that we're pushing this agenda forward for women now while we have you on as a as a health minister i want to ask you about the pandemic and about the

government's response to it. We know that there have been further restrictions announced in Scotland and Wales, which will come in after Christmas. As yet, nothing for England and people are going to be preparing to see families. Businesses need to plan. We all need to plan. It's the time of year when people are going to be travelling. Businesses are going to be spending lots of money trying to get stock in, get food in. People need to know if there are going to be more restrictions brought in. Why hasn't the government told us? Well, the PM said that there's no restrictions up until Christmas.

And obviously, we're reviewing the data that's coming in almost on an hourly basis. And we know that Omicron is much more transmissible, that it's doubling every two days. But what we're looking at at the moment, the crucial data is around the severity factor and how that impacts on hospitalisations and death. So that is being looked at constantly at the moment. And I'm sure the Prime Minister and the Cabinet

will be making a decision soon. But it's really important that when we make that decision, it's the right decision, because there's pros and cons in terms of weighing up restrictions against the changes that are already in place. So the data is being constantly looked at and that's changing very frequently. But further restrictions will be required to some extent, won't they?

Because over 100,000 cases yesterday, we know that hospital admissions are going up. Scotland and Wales have said further restrictions are required. Further restrictions are going to come in in England, aren't they? Well, you know, I think the important thing is to look at the changes we've made already. They are making a difference. They are slowing things down. And our big message really to everyone,

the biggest difference we're seeing is around the boost of vaccination, which is, you know, uh people stay out of a hospital so our big message our big plea to people you know we had over a million uh vaccines given yesterday is to get vaccinated that is the biggest help that they can do for themselves but also for their family and loved ones and communities so that we can get through this period as quickly as possible. Thank you for coming on Women's Hour today. Grateful for your time speaking there to the Women's Health Minister, Maria Caulfield. Lots of you getting in touch with us with your experiences as teachers. I will read those out in a moment.

But this message, which has just come in from Susanna, has caught my eye. Listening to the wonderful Dame Joan Collins. She is a legend. My claim to fame, when working as a registrar, I married her daughter and all the wedding party, including Joan, were lovely. She did a wonderful reading. So do make sure that you watch that programme. On BBC Two, it is on New Year's Day at nine o'clock.

BBC Two, this is Joan Collins. Now, retired teachers offering to return to the classroom in January to help ease absences caused by Covid are unlikely to have their applications processed in time. That's according to supply agencies. They say there's a delay in DBS checks and that is hampering the process. Well, schools are expecting widespread disruption in the new year as they plan on how to cope with the absences due to the Omicron variant. The Education Minister Nadeem Zahawi has called for retired teachers to return to the classroom to plug those gaps left by illness and help avoid

the need to return to online learning. Well, let's speak to Jackie White, the General Secretary of the Ulster Teachers Union. She's here to talk to us about Northern Ireland's Substitute Teacher Programme, which cuts out the need for agency supply teachers. And we're also joined by Mary Boustead, who is the General Secretary of the National Education Union. Good morning to both of you. Good morning. Lots of people getting in touch with us, reluctant to go back into the classroom.

For example, one here from Susanna, I retired last summer after 37 years as a secondary school teacher. I have no desire to return full time to teaching. I've done my bit, but I will volunteer at a local primary school in January to help with literacy once a week. Another one here says, as a 54-year-old male teacher, I've had COVID twice in the last year, the last term during October half term. In addition, cancel flights to see my father for the first time in two years. Bringing in retired teachers isn't the answer.

They will be at risk too. Keep those coming, 84844. Mary, tell me what you think the situation is going to be like in January. Do parents, do teachers have to prepare themselves for the reality that online learning may be returning because of a lack of teachers due to the pandemic? Well, I think everyone would want that to be the last thing that happens and would want schools to be the last to close

because education is so important. But the Education Secretary, Nardine Sahawi, has talked about a tidal wave of Omicron hitting schools. And it was already the case at the end of last term that certain youth groups had to be sent home or schools had to close early because there were so many teachers either isolating because they were a close contact or had actually had COVID. So whilst no one would want that to happen, you can't rule that out, I'm afraid, as a possibility,

particularly, as you said, with the increased transmissibility of Omicron. Jackie, talk to us about the situation in Northern Ireland, because in England there are different supply teacher agencies that people go to, but it's a very different system in Northern Ireland, isn't it? Yes, it is. We've got what's called, what we colloquially called NISTR, the Northern Ireland Substitute Teacher Register. And every substitute teacher that we have in Northern Ireland has to be on that register in order to be paid and employed. So therefore, it does give a central place for schools to be able to access substitute teachers and I know we're a small setting compared to for example England and Wales

but it does give teachers more flexibility as to where they can go, how far they're prepared to travel. Now we have had a few practical issues with it, We have a working group looking at it, but it's been enforced since 2008. And all in all, what it does is it maintains the terms and conditions for teachers, which is very important, but it also gives schools that flexibility to access substitute teachers. So it's a good system. And so does that mean right now it's going to work to plug any gaps in January? Because there are challenges within that system, aren't there? There are challenges within the system, but we have got an additional challenge at the moment. And like in England and Wales, the call has gone out for retired teachers, but it has only gone out during the past couple of days. So therefore,

I don't know that it's going to have a big impact in January, although NIST can fast track the getting those substitute teachers back into the classroom if they've been out of teaching for a while. But our other issue is that we have what's called an engaged programme. The funding was put in from 2020 and has been extended into this year. And what schools were given funding to have so many hours, depending on the nature of the school, in order to engage substitute teachers or additional teaching hours to tackle some of those issues that arose through COVID. So that's effectively catch-up teaching, isn't it? Catch-up. Well, it's academic and it's also emotional and emotional support.

It depends on each school knows the needs of the children in their school and they therefore have taken those decisions and there's a flexibility within it. But the difficulty is in order to protect both the teachers and the role within the school, in was that those substitute teachers who are now employed, a certain number of hours, are not permitted to cover for sick leave and absence of other teachers. So we're caught up now in a scenario where the Education Minister is looking at that programme, but we're aware that we have substitute teachers there. We know where they are. We can get them engaged. But sadly, we've engaged them for a different role, a very important role. But we didn't see this level of shortage of supply coming. So it's back to the drawing board to a certain degree. And that's why there's the call now for retired teachers. Mary, what do you think about that system? Do you think that system in

Northern Ireland could be implemented in England and Wales? I mean, I'm looking at a text which has come in here. It's anonymous, saying as a newly retired teacher and having done supply teaching for the end of my career, I will certainly not go back into school for the following reasons. Risk factor of being in a crowded classroom with up to 34 students per class. Being forced to use supply agencies due to the demise of the local education authorities the supply agencies take a huge chunk of my professional pay it's therefore just not financially worthwhile being in the classroom sadly yeah we have called consistently for the

government to set up um or to support local authorities setting up supply registers so that teachers who want to return to do some work don't have to go through an agency. I mean, it costs them a lot of money. Schools pay about £200 a day for a supply teacher. Agencies take a third of that fee. So it leaves supply teachers generally working for about £120, £125 a day. Now, when you've got the levels of COVID that you've got in schools

and you add to that what will be teacher absence so there'll be fewer teachers who know the schools and the pupils supporting these retired teachers it's a really big ask to ask them to go back into that what the government should have done is made schools a lot safer so we have less teacher absence and you wouldn't need to do this we'll'll talk about that in a moment. Let me just read you a statement which we've got from the Education Secretary, Nadeem Zahawi. He says, It's been my absolute priority since day one in the role to do everything in my power

to protect education, which is why today I'm asking any teachers no longer in the profession to come forward if they are available to temporarily fill absences in the new year. Although 99.9% of schools have consistently been open this term, with cases of Omicron increasing, we must make sure schools and colleges have the teachers available to remain open for face-to-face education. He explains that people should get in touch if they want to go back into school. I mean, let's talk about the issue there, Mary, that you raise about making schools safer. Because if you look at this realistically, this is the third academic year that has been affected by COVID. We had one full year and then a bit in the year before and then this year as well.

Why is it that we still don't have proper ventilation in schools? My children, for example, and I know that I'm not alone, will sit in a classroom where all the windows are open, the doors are open. They're sitting there in their coats. If you're at the front of the classroom, it's not too bad. If you're at the back by the door, you're utterly freezing. That's also not helping your education. Why, Mary, and then, of course, do come in as well, if you would, Jackie,

why don't we have proper ventilation in schools yet? Well, I think that is the million-dollar question. And we've been asking the government, pressurising the government since the start of this pandemic to install in classrooms where there is an insufficient ventilation, which will be virtually every classroom if you have to have the windows closed, to install the industry standards air ventilation units, which clean the air to the industry standard we have written numerous letters we have been in meetings with the dfe repeatedly saying why have you not installed ventilation units because we know that good ventilation is the most effective way of suppressing transmission of the virus what we have what the government have done is, and the programme's just finished now, is installed CO2 monitors, which measure the ventilation in a room, but they don't ventilate the room. When you look at other countries like Germany, those are installed, ventilation units

are installed as standard in every classroom. Now, I don't know the answer as to why the government has not done this, but when Nadeem Sahawi says, I have done everything in my power, I'm afraid I don't agree with that statement. He hasn't installed ventilation units. He hasn't reintroduced mask wearing in secondary schools, which we would not be in the situation that we are now, where we are absolutely frightened and looking at the situation where schools may have to close because it is not safe to keep them running because too many teachers are absent. That's where we are. And the government has to take responsibility for being in that place. And of course, we must remember that in secondary schools, children do have to wear masks in communal areas. And we must remember as well that a lot of secondary school pupils will have also been vaccinated once. I think the take up rate is about 45% at the moment of 12 to 15 year olds. Jackie, tell us what the situation is in Northern Ireland regarding ventilation. Well, sadly, we're in just about the same situation we just have had CO2 monitors

delivered to well the vast majority of schools our understanding was all of schools but a few of them don't seem to have received them yet but sadly what's happening is that the guidance that they're being given is that if the monitor's red you empty the classroom you ventilate the classroom and what schools are finding is that 15 minutes after the children return, we're back to the red. So as Mary says, it's not, it's not, it highlights the problem, but it doesn't solve the problem. And of course, we know that with the nature of school buildings,

I mean, so many of them are so way beyond needing maintenance that you don't have any kind of natural ventilation. So the science that has been quoted to us that suggests that natural airflow is the best solution, which very possibly is right, can't be achieved in the schools. But it is our understanding that we're awaiting some kind of assessment of ventilation units in England, which from what Mary has said, we will be waiting because that doesn't seem to be happening. So we have the same issue. And we have had, we've maintained quite a number of the mitigations from before.

We have the mask wearing as well, but, you know, and the hand sanitising and so on. But the mitigations now are actually being overrun, is my feeling, by this new variant. And the new variant is also moving down into the younger age groups, which is just increasing that transmission in schools. So it's as if we're fighting a tidal wave at the moment, a fighting a losing battle.

Certainly, both my daughters ended the term with online learning and there were 100 cases in my daughter's junior school or suspected cases out of a school of less than 300. So certainly rampant in some areas. Thank you both so much for joining us. Jackie White there, General Secretary of the Ulster Teachers Union and Mary Boustead, the General Secretary of the National Education Union. Thank you for all of your messages. Diana has

texted to say, I was a teacher in inner city London for my whole career and retired nearly 10 years ago. No, I'm not going back. You need to be at the top of your game to be able to give students what they need and deserved. I am 10 years away from the top of my game. Diana, thank you for getting in touch. And Caroline says, absolutely no way

under the present circumstances would I or many of my retired teacher friends return to the classroom. Teachers have been amazing during the past two years and have gone above and beyond in adapting to changes. To ask retired teachers to return is not the answer. Proper ventilation devices and a real commitment by government is required. Do get in touch with us, 84844 on text, or you can tweet us at BBC Woman's Hour. Now, two early studies have found that the Omicron variant may cause a milder illness than the Delta variant of COVID-19. These are small studies. It is early data, but it is being cautiously welcomed.

Further information is expected when the UK Health Security Agency publishes real-world data, which could be possibly as soon as today. Well, let's speak to a woman who has been leading the way in identifying variants of concern throughout this pandemic. Professor Sharon Peacock is the Professor of Public Health and Microbiology at the University of Cambridge, and is also the founder of COG-UK, the COVID-19 Genomics UK Consortium. Now, COG-UK is a network of scientists, clinicians, public health officials all across the UK who use viral genome sequencing to help understand the COVID-19 virus. She's here to explain more, but it has been hugely successful, for instance, identifying the alpha variant, which was so prominent last December.

And Sharon is with me now. Good morning. Good morning. Thank you so much for joining us. Just explain to us a little bit about how COG-UK was formed, how you came up with the idea and how it works. Well, we have to go back to March 2020 and there were only about 100 or so diagnosed cases of COVID-19 in the UK. But people who understand how pathogens kind of evolve knew that the SARS-CoV-2 virus would evolve and develop characteristics which would be more difficult to control, such as more transmissible or infect people with immunity, sort of dodge the immunity really.

And so back in March 2020, I got a group of people together, 20 scientists, and we said we need a network of sequencing capabilities across the country. And so we wrote a blueprint over one day, which is pretty spectacular really. We wrote a blueprint. We put that in front of Sir Patrick Valensour, Chief Government Science Advisor, and he provided funding for us to get going. And the consortium really was made up of, as you said, academic universities. There were 16 of those initially, together with the four public health agencies and the Welcome Sang Institute. And so we got going in March 2020 to really prepare the ground for what might be coming next and to understand more about the virus. And so explain how what you do helps inform the government's response to this pandemic.

Well, we were sequencing the virus actually before we even received funding. So by the end of March, we'd sequenced 800 samples that were positive for SARS-CoV-2. And we continue to do that. So the total number of genomes that have been generated in the UK is over 1.6 million. And the point of the exercise really is to keep your eyes on the evolution of the virus and then link that to what's happening in the community so for example does a particular variant or different types of mutations in the virus link up with a surge in cases which is what we're seeing with the variants of concern or do they dodge the immunity and so it's really like a cataloguing, if you like, of the variants, so that you can then actually put that against the real world data as it emerges to see if the virus is changing its pattern of behaviour. other virus with a kind of a stronger characteristic to outcompete the other viruses will be selected out through natural selection and that will be the one that really takes over which is what happened with Alpha. Well explain how you discovered Alpha and at what point you realised it was going

to be a problem. Well if you go back in the records the very first case was goes back to about the 20th of September back in 2020 but it it was just a very low level. And it was really only when there was an epidemiological signal, by which I mean there was a surge of cases in Kent and parts of London with increasing in cases, which then came together with an observation that that particular variant was really quite different from other variants circulating at the time it had a lot of mutations and so that that allowed us to really put two and two together and make four now it's possible that that surge in cases

could have been by chance so studies had to be done to look at whether alpha was more transmissible or not and those studies do take do take several weeks to complete. But that's really how in kind of very early December, there was a coming together of people who understand about the genome of the virus, together with public health officials, to realise that two and two actually did make four in that situation. When we look at Omicron now, and we've got these early studies, which are saying it looks like it doesn't cause such serious illness.

I mean, it is early studies, small studies. How much, how positive should we be about that? Isn't that a difficult question? We're always working with imperfect data and we're always having to assess what we think is the likely scenario. And I've grown to be extremely humble because actually it's so easy to get that wrong. My own take on it is that from three separate studies, one in South Africa, one in

Scotland and one in England, it does look as if Omicron causes less severe disease, by which I mean fewer people need to go to hospital for treatment. So I'm cautiously optimistic. But the other side of the coin is that this variant is moving so fast across the world and through the country, and it's because it can infect people with prior immunity from vaccine or positive infection, that if you get double the case number and it has half the severity, effectively cancels itself out. So I think I am cautiously optimistic, but I think we need to be more watching for the number of people going into hospital, for example, for treatment.

And so I think more data is needed. I would say also that we've been talking on the programme today about the effect of mild disease, but I would say also that we've been talking on the programme today about the effect of mild disease, but I would stress that mild disease is really significant because that is what's taking staff out of NHS care, out of schools, out of transport, etc. And that's a worry because people who have cancer or have a heart attack or a stroke, getting access to the hospital when there are both people with COVID in the hospital, but also a reduced staff workforce is of particular concern. So it's quite a complex picture at the moment.

We don't have a lot of time left, but I do want to just briefly, if we can, reflect on your background and the fact that you left school at 16. You went and worked in the corner shop and effectively had a full time job doing that. Wow, did you change direction and you, I know you you have achieved when when you you didn't have a I'm guessing a normal route if there is such a thing into a career which is is so impressive now I am I am I proud I think um I'm not somebody who kind of uh it uses the word pride about myself very much I'm really pleased that I did that but I enjoyed every single step so I was a very determined person and quite a resilient person

actually so when I was in the shop I really enjoyed working in a shop it was great fun but I knew that I could do more and when there was a um an advert in the shop for a dental nurse I did that and then I did nursing and then I did medicine and I looking back it surprises me somewhat and it was only in the last couple of years that I've talked to people about the fact that I did leave school because in fact I failed my 11 plus and that was the decider I went to a secondary modern school and I wasn't permitted to do science science GCSEs at the time so yes I'm looking back it does surprise me my. I start to talk about it more now to encourage people to think that they can do what they want to, but that education is

such an incredible facilitator for social mobility and getting to where you want to get to. So yes, I think when I look back, my story takes me by surprise sometimes. Well, it's really fascinating to read about your story. And also, of course, the other thing we have to remember is self-belief. And you've certainly got that. And that's helped you to go on to great success. Thank you so much for speaking to us today. That is Professor Sharon Peacock. She is Professor of Public Health and Microbiology at the University of Cambridge.

She's the founder of COG-UK. If you'd like to hear more from Sharon, she'll be one of the guest lecturers taking part in the Royal Institution's Christmas Lectures, which will be broadcast at eight o'clock on BBC4 on the 28th, 29th and 30th of December. Now, TikTok has enjoyed a surge in popularity due to the pandemic. But what you might not expect to see there is the tradition of Inuit throat singing, which is making a revival on the platform. The practice, normally done by women who hold each other in an embrace while they sing to each other, was at risk of extinction after years of erasure by colonialists and missionaries. But a new generation are sharing the songs on social media or interpreting them in new ways. Now, Kayleigh Inuksuk-Makai and Tiffany Eilich

are Inuit-style throat singers. They perform ancient traditional songs and eerie new compositions. They're sisters. They're a duo. They're called Pilk Silk. It's named after a peculiar snowstorm. It happens in the treeless Arctic where snow is lifted back into the sky, creating an unearthly sensation, which looks like snow is falling upwards. Now, they spoke to us about the throat singing tradition and how they're giving it a festive twist. My name is Inuksuk Makai, and I'm one half of the duo Pilsuk. Katajuk, Inuit throat singing is a practice by Inuit women in the Arctic. It's a very ancient form of music.

It's a bonding activity. You stand very close to your partner. You have to be very in sync and in tune with one another. It's also used as a lullaby to put babies to sleep and to sort of pay homage to the sounds around you that you would hear repetitively. So a lot of the songs are inspired by the sounds of nature, the sounds of weather, animals, chores. Geese is one of my favorites. Hi, my name is Tiffany Ayelik. Basically, it's like singing around. So two people are singing the same song, just a hair off of what the original person is singing. So there's a leader and a follower.

Like when you're singing row, row, row your boat in a round, somebody starts and then somebody comes in just afterwards. That's one of the cool things about it and how it's different from Western singing and choral singing, where you want to be completely all together, all at the same time in kind of perfect unison. It's a little bit like cat and mouse with the leader and the follower. So when your partner is breathing out, you're breathing in. So you're really just a split second off of each other and you really need to pay attention to stay in cadence. And your partner could change the song at any moment without notice to try to outrun you. So you're basically kind of chasing them through the song, trying to keep up. So one that I think is a pretty cool representation is the saw mimicking quite closely the sounds of sawing through snow in the wintertime.

If you're making your igloo, you know, having a saw going through the snow to cut the blocks has a really distinct sound. it's just like a vocal gymnastics that's kind of going on inside in the throat in the palate in your vocal folds you're making sound on inhalations and exhalations and then any of the sort of tonal things as well you're kind of using all of your resonating chambers in your cheeks and your teeth and having lots of control that you're able to like, like I'm going to growl on the inhale or exhale that they just give like different qualities to everything that you're doing. It takes lots of effort. It's like a very aerobic type style of singing. And we can tell when we haven't been doing it for a while. It's like, oh, I'm winded. I don't feel like I have the muscle control right now to do some of these things.

You have to stay on the beat. So we call it tripping. If you trip, if you miss the beat, then you lose. Or if you laugh, and if you're really, really intense about it, even smiling is not allowed. So you have to be in total control, which is really tough when someone's right in your face being like, ugh. Tiff and I being sisters, we grew up throat singing together from very young age something that we did to pass the time with our cousins we have very fond memories of you know trying

out different songs and laughing and laughing until we can't breathe and we didn't take it super seriously until I think in our teens we started to really realize that it was getting harder and harder to learn new songs so we'd had sort of this handful of songs that we knew we'd heard that there were hundreds maybe even thousands at one point and we're like why can't we find people to teach us you know being so young we didn't understand the history of colonization of residential schools we were blissfully unaware but we knew something was wrong Like why does Gran clam up when we ask her about old songs? Like why does she suddenly freeze and look terrified, for example? And we were just like, what is going on here? It was like this

mystery that the adults didn't talk about this shame that just sort of hung in the air anytime we tried to learn something. So, you know, whenever we would find a teacher, we would just like latch on and learn every single thing we could. And, you know, in our teens, we started to understand this deep, dark history and just what had occurred. So throat singing has a very interesting and tumultuous history in Canada. In fact, at one time, any expression of cultural singing, dancing or ceremony was banned, was outlawed in Canada, and was punishable by fines, imprisonment. And so that included singing any traditional song that included any dance that included any wearing of regalia, if that's what your people wore. I don't think

that's really known by a lot of people. Basically, Indigenous children in Canada between certain ages, school ages, were forced to attend institutions. They would be essentially kidnapped by the Royal Canadian Mounted Police. They would take the children from their families and they would put them in these schools where they were supposed to learn to be white. I believe that the phrase used was kill the Indian, save the child. So they wanted to erase the culture out of us, erase what we were and make us white culture, God believing citizens. Members of the Commonwealth. Yeah. And so abuse and even death was considered a necessary and acceptable means to an end.

You know, among the many abuses, thousands of children at least went missing and were never seen or heard from again. The families were not notified of their deaths or their passing. That was a real eye-opener for us. And I think that at that point, it became urgent to learn in order to preserve because so many songs had already been lost. There's, you know, so many songs that we'll never learn. They're gone now. So at that point, we took it really seriously as not just an art form, but as a political act of reclamation.

When we perform live, what we do is like build these multi-voice soundscapes with a looping pedal and then we take turns kind of like making sonic offers to each other so it's it's like a vocal tennis match kind of going back and forth and is our sort of 2021 oh my gosh almost 2022 kind of interpretation of a traditional style using some technology as well. I find that when we throw singing for a long period of time, I really lose sense of time. And interestingly enough, it also triggers your vagus nerve, which calms your parasympathetic nervous system. So quite a calming and connected activity that would have been, I think, really great for mental health back when, you know, we might have had an emergency that was really stressful, you know, living in the Arctic at minus 50 with no light can be tough. So, you know,

women would have been really in tune with their bodies. And I think that this was probably quite instinctual as a way to connect, to co-regulate, and just was our first time reimagining traditional Christmas carols. We wanted to stitch together a way for us to celebrate and sort of indigenize the holiday so that we could partake in a way that felt true to who we are and to also be a part of our own healing journey. So we picked out our favorite carols and we throat sang them. And this year, it was a tough year. I know it was a tough year for a lot of people and we just really wanted to do something fun. So one of the favorites that we had was Dance of the Sugar Plum Fairy, which we really latched on to after seeing the Nutcracker Ballet in Ottawa one year as kids.

So we thought, you know what, let's do something just totally fun. And so we recorded Dance of the Sugar Plum Fairy throat singing version for Christmas 2021. The Inuit style throat singers. We're back again tomorrow at 10. That's all from today's Woman's Hour. I hope you can join us again next time. We are all driven by our needs and wants, and this can take us places we never expected.

My body was craving a pregnancy. My mind was craving a pregnancy. And then that's what made me start looking up Facebook. You can get anything on the internet. Just like meet you and you just give them your sperm and they just go back into their house. I'm Dr. Alex Kretosky. And in this 10 part series, I'm investigating the unregulated, unlicensed fertility market, a place of hopes and dreams and unchecked desire.

I don't want to give you my full name. I don't want to give you my full name. I don't want to give you my age. You're not going to be able to find my identity. I just want to get people pregnant. From BBC Radio 4, Mail Order. Listen and subscribe on BBC Sounds. I'm Sarah Trelevan, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered.

There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this?

From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story. Settle in. Available now.