Woman's Hour - Joanne Froggatt and Dr Rachel Clarke, Minette Batters, NFU, Israel/Gaza war

Episode Date: February 13, 2024

A forthcoming three-part ITV drama Breathtaking, set in a fictionalised London hospital, tells the devastating impact of the Covid-19 pandemic through the eyes of Acute Medical Consultant Dr Abbey Henderson. The series is based on Dr Rachel Clarke’s book of the same name. She worked on Covid wards and is also one of the writers on the series. Dr Henderson is played by Joanne Froggatt, known for many roles including Downton Abbey, Sherwood and Angela Black. They join Emma Barnett to discuss.The "orange peel theory" is as trend where one person in a couple will ask their partner to peel an orange for them. As Valentine's Day approaches, what are the small gestures that mean so much? The ways you show your love? Minette Batters is standing down as President of the National Farmers' Union after six years of leading the organisation. She joins Emma to talk about her tenure leading the farming world, and what it felt like to be the first woman to do so.We've been looking at the experiences of women from both Israel and Gaza on the programme this week, asking what are the main issues facing women on each side as the war continues in to its fifth month. Today Emma speaks to Ayelet Razin Bet Or the Legal Adviser to the Association of Rape Crisis Centres in Israel. Ayelet has been travelling the world in recent months highlighting the horrific evidence of rape, sexual violence and mutilation of women during the October 7 brutal attacks by Hamas that killed 1,200 people and says she feels hugely let down and even betrayed by the response she has seen, particularly from other women. She also talks about her concerns for the 14 female hostages still being held by Hamas. To listen to our discussion about women in Gaza, please head to BBC Sounds to find it in yesterday's episode.Presented by Emma Barnett Producer: Louise Corley Studio Engineer: Giles Aspen

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Emma Barnett and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Good morning and welcome to the programme. And after some of you sending me your best screams on social media after our conversation on yesterday's programme about women, madness, our minds, our bodies, how we feel, thank you. I won't forget the last 24 hours. But today we will turn our attention to gestures of love and service. It seems the smaller the

better. Yes, okay, Valentine's Day, maybe tomorrow, but it seems just peeling an orange for your loved one might be all it takes. After a few so-called love tests have gone viral on TikTok, more detail will be revealed a bit later in the programme. But far from the grand gestures of creating a building for someone, you know, like the Taj Mahal, to demonstrate everlasting love, peeling an orange for your loved one might be all it takes. I mean, it is annoying to peel an orange for yourself. What are the small gestures that someone has done for you to show their love?

Perhaps it is the amazing cup of tea at the perfect moment, the stroking of your arm, a silent shoulder squeeze. For me, making a hot water bottle is right up there. But what is yours? You can text me on 84844. Watch them for those standard message rates. On social media, we're at BBC Women's Hour. Or email me.

Some of you love doing that and I love receiving them through the Women's Hour website. Or WhatsApp [phone]. Also on today's programme, the first woman to run the National Farmers Union, Minette Batters, is stepping down. She will be here, as will the woman trying to tell the world the extent of the sexual violence Hamas, a group recognised as terrorists by the UK government, inflicted on Israeli women on October the 7th. But first, can drama do what political inquiries cannot? That's what the doctor and writer Rachel Clark is perhaps hoping. Her book, Breathtaking,

about what happened to doctors and medical staff during the pandemic, based on her experience on the Covid wards, has been turned into a three-part ITV drama that starts next week. Set in a fictionalised London hospital, the series tells the devastating impact of the pandemic through the eyes of the character Dr Abby Henderson, as she and fellow frontline medical staff battle to try to save the lives of COVID patients as the virus begins to overwhelm the NHS. Dr Henderson is played by the actor Joanne Froggett, you'll know of course from things like Downton Abbey and many more. And the series begins on the 3rd of March 2020,

20 days before the country is locked down. Let's play you a clip. Look, I need a coronavirus test for a 45-year-old patient. I know he has no travel history. Right. But there is the highest index of clinical suspicion that this is an undiagnosed coronavirus absolutely every other guidance says with no travel history we can't authorize testing but I was just standing there watching a patient playing a game on his phone with his sat sitting in his boots so the

guidelines need to go in the bin for a moment we have to follow guidelines we have no choice he you know this thing is spreading all over Italy this is national guidance okay it's from Public Health England. Talk to Mike and make sure your patient's in a side room. Joanne Froggatt says, as is the Rachel Doctor... Right, excuse me, Dr Rachel Clark. Good morning. Good morning. Thank you for being here. It takes you right back in some ways.

Joanne, if I could start with you, why did you want to play this role? Well, I read the scripts, you know, it was the first thing you do. And well, actually, Craig Viveros, our director, I'd worked with before on a show called Angela Black, and he called me and said, I'm doing this project, explained what it was. And I just sort of went, wow, this sounds so important and incredible. And then I was sent the scripts and um they were some of the best scripts I've ever read and you know even just taking it from a drama perspective but then I knew I then was told that every single patient story in our script every single um member of NH an NHS staff story was based on a real account. So, you know, it wasn't fictionalised,

it was a retelling of the truth. Did you have any idea of what doctors were going through at the time? I mean, some may have been listening to the interviews at the time and hearing people's accounts, but I wonder if it did take you somewhere else. It did. I was quite disappointed in myself actually reading the scripts because I did have an inkling of, you know, sort of seeing newspaper articles and, you know, different things on social media. But I didn't delve deep enough. And I keep saying, you know, that those of us who were sort of fortunate enough not to have dealings with hospitals during the pandemic, really, we had no idea of what our NHS staff were put through, what they were expected to do, the risks they were put under and the price they paid.

And I shed tears reading the script, and that's never happened to me before. And I just thought, somebody has to tell this story. We have to know what our NHS has done for us. Why did you want to write it, Rachel? You had an experience, of course, by going into this zone. It's not based exactly on your experience. It's a composite of what was going on around you, I understand. That's right, yes.

But as Jo says, we had a fundamental principle, which was everything you see on screen is true. It has truly happened in some shape or form. There's no sensationalising exaggeration whatsoever. And everything had to be so authentic that even a doctor or a nurse who was there on the COVID wards would not be able to tell any detail that wasn't true to life. And I think more than anything, I wanted to bring this series onto the screen because if you think back to March 2020, when the rest of the world was rightly quaking in the face of this horrific virus, NHS staff

and care staff in care homes were stepping up and going towards the patients whose every breath they knew was steeped with this virus and could kill them. And very often in the early days, they were doing that either with pitiful PPE with a paper mask and a plastic pinny, or in the worst cases, no PPE at all. There are multiple occasions of staff who begged for PPE for their wards and were told by their hospital bosses, who themselves were being given these instructions from the government, no, no PPE. And I wanted that sacrifice, that courage and the enormity of these staff sometimes then catching COVID and dying in the same hospitals where we were all working to be shown to the public in a way that I hoped would make people, would stop them in their tracks and just make them think, gosh, I thought I understood this, but I really had no idea. Do you think people

want this and need this drama? I mean, I'm just thinking back to the care home drama. I say drama, but based on what happened during COVID, which was on Channel 4 with Jodie Comer in it and Stephen Graham called Help. This is now based in a hospital, so a different setting again. There may be some who think we've had already drama of this and now this. It's quite soon. Yes, and I think I'm a palliative care doctor. That's my specialty. And so the human instinct to want to turn away from a traumatic experience is very, very little memorialising of that experience, that immense loss of life in Britain in the arts. I feel, though, that that's not necessarily, A, a good way to learn lessons for the future, and B, actually a good way to process what has

happened. Because as a country, we've all collectively been through a trauma all of us has lost something during the pandemic NHS staff maybe lost their lives 230,000 people died with Covid on their death certificate but we all lost something even if it was just our peace of mind and so confronting the truth is a way of talking about it, sharing it collectively, supporting each other. of all the families bereaved by COVID or NHS staff who today are suffering from PTSD as a result of what they went through or long COVID that has disabled them. It's a way of recognising that and paying tribute to it and if we don't talk about it and tell these stories in a way all of those individuals who are traumatised may well feel as though they're not being seen, they're not being heard, society doesn't want to know about them.

Go on, Joanne, sorry. You know, it's not just, our story isn't just a retelling of COVID. Like we all lived through that time, whatever your views are on, you know, the pandemic, we all lived it. This is very much the story we didn't know you know if we were fortunate enough not to have um interactions with the hospitals and i think for that reason you know it's it's really important that if people can watch it if it's not too triggering for them that they don't look away because we should know this story what was there a particular storyline but it's based on what happened that that took you aback that will stay with you from either your character or another person's i mean all of them you know

all of them are so um just so profoundly affecting um the one thing that i am just extremely angered about that i can't sort of not be angry about is the lack of PPE. And it's not even the lack of PPE, it's the lies about the PPE, the downgrading of PPE for NHS workers and healthcare workers, when really it was because there was a shortage of PPE. And that to me is just incredible in the worst possible way that, you know, yes, the government would have come under some fire if they'd have admitted that, you know, they weren't prepared, the PPE wasn't there, there wasn't enough. risking more people's lives and letting them go into situations that were unsafe and telling people that are clinically trained who know better that no, no, no, it's fine. You only need level three PPE for aerosol generating procedures. And, you know, if we saw as a country, you know, how much the public got behind people, how much we helped people. There are a million volunteers for the NHS,

children in schools making visors for NHS workers, all that. I know it wasn't perfect. I know it wasn't medical grade, but all that could have happened sooner, you know, and staff would have been able to make their own decisions and had autonomy of the risks they were put under. And that, to me, is unforgivable. I mean, there is a COVID inquiry ongoing. I mentioned it at the start of introducing this.

We know that from various politicians and the scientists as well, that they have had things to say in response to these allegations. For instance, some of the issue around how quickly we locked down, how serious this was taken. And I suppose if I was to summarise,

which is a big thing to be able to do, the response from some of those key ministers, it would be we were doing our best at that time. Yes, we should have taken things more seriously earlier. That is something that's been said by Boris Johnson through to actually, if you look at around the issue around lockdown being too late. England's chief medical officer, Professor Chris Whitty, told the inquiry that it was imposed too late, lockdown, for instance, but the government had no good options at the time. I could go on, but to this point that's been raised about something that you've taken away from it, Joanne, playing this role and then, Rachel, you being this role during that time. I mean, what do you think can be achieved through the inquiry versus a drama that can get to the public in perhaps a different way. Well, we've seen this remarkably with the response to Mr. Bates and the post office. A drama on television is a way of taking a viewer by the hand and leading them into a world that

they suddenly feel and hear and experience and emotionally endure in a way that you just can't do through reading a newspaper article or following a COVID inquiry on screen. No, but maybe we need more people to pay attention to those things as well. Absolutely, absolutely. But let's try every means we can. And if this is a way of capturing the public's attention through the power of storytelling and making them care and making them react emotionally, and I hope making them feel angry at times too, not because mistakes were made.

Mistakes will always be made. What's unforgivable is not being honest and transparent and candid and frank with the public. And from my perspective, as an NHS frontline doctor who didn't get the right PPE, who couldn't get COVID tests in our hospital for five days, who did see patients being sent back to care homes with no protections whatsoever. I know for a fact that when Matt Hancock stood up and claimed none of those things were true, and I know he doesn't have a right to respond on this programme. Oh no, we've given it to him. I have a statement here. He's lying. He lied over and over again. And I think that's wrong. In a pandemic,

you get through a pandemic together, trusting your government and trusting each other. And I think that the government's conduct just trashed those bonds of trust. And that too, I can never forgive them for. Well, no, I mean, I'm just looking through here. But I mean, he wouldn't characterise it as lying. He did say, for instance, a protective ring had been thrown around care homes, but he did appear to agree during the COVID inquiry that those protections did not amount to an unbroken circle. When asked for a response today, he obviously didn't know exactly what you were going to say. He talked about the UK building a testing capacity from scratch, not only developing the world's first vaccine, but rolling out the world's most successful

vaccination programme. And he says he and his team did everything they could under incredibly difficult circumstances to save lives and his thoughts will remain with those who lost lives and with anyone who fell victim to this awful virus. It's interesting isn't it because that's the same Matt Hancock who in his own Covid diaries published ostensibly written at the time claims that on the 1st of January 2020, no less, he heard about this new virus and from that moment understood how vitally dangerous for the world it could be. And yet, on March the 23rd and all the way into April, despite these four months of foresight that he claims he had, we could not get tests for NHS staff. By early April, only 4% of NHS staff had had a Covid test. They were dropping like flies.

We had already had staff who had died by that point. So I hear those warm and emollient words from Matt Hancock. He also said he was inside government pushing to act faster on lockdown PPE and care homes. I think four months is frankly not fast enough. I suppose what we're getting to here is what you hope to come from this. And you've talked about the public, but for politicians who may watch this, whether it's Boris Johnson, whether it's, I mean, many of them now not in frontline politics, but Rishi Sunak, Chancellor at the time, much was also made of the decision to eat out to help out. What would you like some of those who may still be in decision making roles and have to prepare for anything else comes? What would you like them to take away? Well, in the NHS, when we investigate something that has gone wrong and the NHS's track record is definitely not good on that

across the board. But when it works well, it's with a duty of candour that's respected by everybody. We talk truthfully about mistakes in order to learn how to do things better and more safely next time. I believe with every molecule of my being as a doctor in that duty of candour, it's the only way to improve. And that's what the COVID inquiry should, at the end of the day, be about more than anything. How do we do things better and more safely next time? Because we know there'll be another pandemic. And for me, one of the most important aspects of doing things better next time is being honest and candid as a pandemic unfolds with the public. You have to do that. I suppose people worry about creating panic. Yes.

Which is, we don't know how bad this is. We don't have the equipment. I mean, if that had been said, there is also the concern of how you control how people feel and how they're able to do their jobs. I'm just trying to think about it in terms of crisis management. So it's not saying anything that was done or not done was right or wrong. But I'm just thinking when you're in the midst of that, there are those. And I've heard from many from the public during the last few years, I was on air nearly every day of the lockdown. You know, and you're reporting incredible things like the cinemas are closing. This is happening. This is happening. It didn't seem like real life. While you're doing something, you can try to keep people feeling like it's okay in some way. And hindsight, a lot of people have

a lot more sympathy for, it's interesting for politicians, not the whole time, not the whole way through, but for how difficult it may have been. But that's fine as long as you're not putting people's lives at risk by doing that. And I think that's the difference, isn't it? Absolutely. And another important, very important issue is where does the government's conduct throughout the pandemic leave the NHS now? So obviously huge numbers of staff have left.

They're broken by it. They're suffering trauma. Which is what you want to bring attention to as well but also I think next time round if the NHS was asked to step up in the same way they may well think back to the time when they were told you don't need proper PPE have a paper mask and a plastic pinny you'll be fine and they may think of their friends and colleagues who died through that lack of PPE. And they may think, I was treated like cannon fodder. Then I was treated as completelyected, while nurses in my hospital were dying from this virus that we all believe categorically they caught through being unprotected on the wards, I had to listen to government figures claim over and over again to the public that there were no

national problems with PPE, that the NHS was not overwhelmed, there was no rationing, we were coping. All of those were clear lies from our perspective on the front line. And I think it's very worrying in terms of morale and staff confidence and the desire of staff to keep going on. On the one hand, you have a Prime Minister banging his pot and shouting heroes to NHS staff on a Thursday night. And on the other, you have your colleagues dying because they didn't have proper PPE. There's a grotesque mismatch there. And we need to confront that because we need a flourishing NHS. The series is called Breathtaking. It begins next Monday and runs to Wednesday, and then you can catch back up on it. Joanne Froggatt and the writer, Dr. Rachel Clark,

thank you very much for your time this morning. An interesting message just straight in here. I would like to hear what you're thinking this morning. We may not want this drama about COVID and the NHS, but I think we need it. I have not been affected by COVID personally, and I find myself forgetting how awful it was. We should be reminded on ITV next week. And anything else that you heard you wish to have a say on, please do get in touch. You are getting in touch, I have to say, about small gestures, which will have also been very important, I'm sure, during that time with the time that we lived through and for our NHS and about things that make you feel loved. I'll come to some of those then, because social media, as ever, has shown us a new way to perhaps demonstrate this peeling an orange. If someone is willing to do that for you, they're a keeper.

The orange peel theory has apparently taken over TikTok with one viral video getting over 20 million views. There's also the ketchup test, the bird test. Someone I can always rely on to help me on this, the journalist Rebecca Reid. Good morning. Good morning. Orange peel, tell me about that. So the orange peel theory has a kind of, it's one of those internet things that no one's 100% sure where it started, but it's rumoured to come from a Reddit post, an old one, where a woman said that she found peeling oranges really uncomfortable with her hands. I think it's because they're acidic and she had very sensitive skin. And she came home one day and her boyfriend or husband had peeled six oranges

and put them into Ziploc bags in the fridge for her. So through the week, she could eat oranges. And it was held up as a kind of perfect example of it's not an expensive thing to do. It's not wildly time consuming. It's not chartering a jet to take you to Paris or whatever but it is a very very deep act of love and as a result of this the girlies of TikTok who um are a terrifying and brilliant generation of of Gen Z um took it upon themselves to start turning this into a test so you hint to your partner obviously male or female though I've only ever seen it done to men, I'd really love an orange right now, but my hand's hurting,

I've got RSI, or I just don't feel like peeling it. I've got RSI, I can't peel an orange. Yes, okay, go on. If you hold your phone as much as I do. Yeah, sorry, I'm now going to get some very serious texts about RSI. I'm not laughing at RSI, I'm just laughing at the reason you might not be able to peel an orange for yourself, but carry on. But I think also they're very keen on just saying,

I'm not in the mood to do this, there's no i can't i don't want to do it um and if your partner is a keeper they'll generally be like oh i'll peel you an orange um and it's a kind of it's an indicator of lots of things it's how willing they are to do a small act of kindness for you how much they're listening to what you're saying and also the sense of not needing to directly instruct your partner but to be able to give them some context and to read between the lines. And there are also some slightly horrific videos that you see where occasionally the boyfriends will be really vile about it and will be like, why would I do that for you? Like, why can't you do anything for yourself? And again, these are candidly filmed videos that women then put up and it kind of opens a conversation about not not tolerating bad treatment from somebody your data i did note the uh the times journalist robert crumson wrote a column on this today uh

saying it doesn't sound like a useful audition for a partner more like a job interview for a domestic servant but that could be just another another view on this can i just bring you i mentioned the the bird test and i believe you've got a view on this my favorite one uh the bird test is if you're walking along the road with your partner and you go oh look a bird and they don't turn to look at it that's an incredibly bad sign it starts from a there's a relationship therapist purportedly we don't we haven't checked but somebody who claimed to be a relationship therapist who said that if they if they hear that reported and they know the relationship's over and i have to say towards the end of i had a sort of um failed starter marriage and towards the end of I had a sort of failed starter marriage and towards the end of

that I really noticed that if we were going somewhere I go oh look at that house he just wouldn't turn to look probably because I said such a large volume of words in any given day that a lot of it got filtered out no no no come on but yeah you do you do get the sense that if you're excited by something and they're not driving because I do tend to do it to my boyfriend when he's driving and that's not the same thing but if you have the opportunity to turn and look at something that somebody else has found interesting and important and you choose not to that actually speaks volumes about the relationship yeah there's well I suppose a shared curiosity and a respect for what you're finding interesting exactly the sense that oh that was

exciting to you therefore and also again these things are so small it's turning your head like 90 degrees that's not a huge ask um and if you're not willing to do that for somebody then that's a that's a pretty poor sign about how much you like them or value their opinion i mean the smallness of the gesture also seems to be quite key here which which is refreshing i have to say let me just give you a flavor rebecca and everyone else of what we're getting in um tessa says my partner makes sure my electric toothbrush is charged and also checks my tyre pressure. It's the little things. So it's a lot about equipment there.

I'm a teacher in winter. I have to get up in the dark to go to work. Preach. Last year, my husband, Will, got up early every morning for two weeks at the end of term to de-ice the car. A little act of kindness that kept me going. That's lovely. I phoned my husband one evening to say I was on on my way home but i'd had a rotten day when i pressed the button to open the garage there was a glass of red wine sitting on the tumble dryer that is romance says jan uh love in the

kitchen whoever's first down in the morning sets up two cups tea bags and milk kettle boiled and ready every day since we were married 19 years ago um i love my partner painting my toenail says debbie from stoke i wouldn't trust him with that. And another one from Anna says, when my kids were young and I was stressed and exhausted one morning at school drop off. This is brilliant. I know you're going to like this. A very lovely woman turned up in the afternoon with a pack of Parma ham for me. I love the slight randomness of the ham instead of chocolate. Not just small gestures from partners, from those in your life demonstrating love and care. It's something, though, isn't it?

I love that this has taken hold of people's imagination as small gestures go, Rebecca. Yeah, and I think, you know, we're in a cost of living crisis. We don't necessarily all have the ability to spoil our partners in a way that we might have done while we were a bit richer. But actually, this is, it sounds very cliche, but this is more important because this is the stuff that holds you together long term it's that kind of ongoing thoughtful kindness and also i think for for this generation of women who are really grasping this on tiktok they have probably watched their mothers do vast amounts of emotional labor and i think there's a reaction to that there's a sense of i'm not going to have a household what i hold every single weight and i spin every plate I'm going to form a relationship with somebody who's able to do that for themselves and hold space to look after me and I think that's really healthy.

What do you do for your boyfriend apart from distracting him while he's driving? My best thing is that if it's cold I get into bed first and I'll go on his side so it's warm and then I move over when he comes in and then I go on the cold side which I think is probably like giving somebody a kidney. Rebecca happy valentines if you're doing that and to you galentines or if you're not just to have a good you know February 14th whatever you feel Rebecca Reid there on some of those love tests coming up and making people smile or grimace it seems and Sarah's got one here my husband holds my hand every time we cross the road it does always make me smile well my next guest who's just walked into the studio should know a thing or two about oranges or certainly food production. She is the President of the National Farmers

Union, a role she's stepping down from at the end of this month, having served the maximum term. I'm talking about Minette Batters, the first woman to actually hold that role since the union was created at the turn of last century. A farmer herself in Wiltshire. It's been quite a term, a couple of terms, with everything hitting farming in the UK. In all senses, if you think about the UK officially leaving the EU to a global pandemic, a war in Ukraine, a higher cost of living, I could go on. Is Minette Batters leaving the world of farming a better place than she arrived? Good morning.

Good morning, Emma. Are you? I think I leave it at quite a pivotal time, if I'm honest. A lot will depend on the next election as to whether we really decide that producing food here matters. And I think for the general public, they've faced rationing in a way that they've never faced before. So the whole profile of farmers and food and supply. What do you mean by rationing? Sorry, that they've never faced before so the whole profile of farmers and food and supply what do you mean by rationing sorry when people aren't able to get hold of things during the pandemic or absolutely so during the pandemic a lot of people couldn't buy what they wanted to buy we kept running short of things like flour last year this time last year

salad was being rationed actually by supermarkets because of weather events in Morocco and eggs. Everybody faced the rationing of eggs. We produced a billion less eggs in 22 compared to 2019. That was all due for the cost of production being so high. Those costs that, you know, how we make our food just rose so sharply. So it's really brought food to the forefront, I think, of many people's minds. Your job amongst everything, if I was to put it together, is to represent farmers and their interests. And you have to do that at the very highest level, crucially with politicians. During your time, there have been trade deals, if you think of with Australia and New Zealand,

you've said publicly, you can never support them, that they have hurt British farmers to remind people tariffs on beef and sheep meat phased out, quotas on quantities that they can send to rise over 10 to 15 years. In that respect, do you feel you did all you could? We led probably one of the largest, most successful campaigns of modern times and a million people in this country. 2020, not only were we in lockdown, we had Prime Minister Johnson here and President Trump in the US, and they were determined to conclude a trade deal by August. And we brought this petition together, a really united coalition of chefs, Jamie Oliver was involved, pharma groups, NGOs, and a million members of the public

signed that petition. That was the food standards petition. That was the food standards petition. That was the food standards petition. And that did turn the tide. I have no doubt in my own mind, without that petition, we would have imported things like hormone-treated beef, chlorine-washed chicken, which are illegal to produce here. So I think we've stopped that happening. And the current Prime Minister, Rishi Sunak, has put it in writing,

not now, not ever will we import hormone-t treated beef. And that's really good to hear. Australia and New Zealand, we were always going to do trade deals with the Commonwealth countries. That was a good thing. The mistake that was made was that we gave everything away. So if anything is going wrong, and we are importing too much, there is nothing we can do about it. We fully liberalised that relationship. I think the current Trade Secretary, Kemi Badenoch, has characterised it as some people, perhaps including yourself, just need to be better sold on the deal. And it will be good for this country. What would you say to that? Well, all the rhetoric was of taking back control. You know, we need to take back control to have some control. With those two we gave it away but it's different now the government has just walked away from the Canadian deal because they wanted to export hormone treated beef to this country and the government walked away so it's a different approach which I'm really pleased about but the damage to a certain extent has been done a bit but there is a very different approach now and that's good. I suppose just reminding us ourselves, Farmers Weekly at the time of Brexit did a survey which

showed 58% of farmers voted to leave the European Union. Your tenure as president began two years before the UK left the EU, but the country had already voted to leave. I mean, when we think about where we are now, and the decision of farmers in the ones I have described there, are farmers in a better place since Brexit? Can you say that? No, I don't think they are because we left without a plan effectively and we've had so much churn and change. I worked with three prime ministers in 12 months. They've all been very different. And we're still at a place where we don't have a plan and a food strategy for

food production. Henry Dimbleby bought a food strategy and a plan together but half of that was sort of taken out so it's really important with 70 million people on an island that we do have a meaningful food strategy and I hope in the run-up the next election, food will be taken as seriously as our energy security is. Do your farmers, do those that you represent, feel the same as you've just described? Are you representing them or is that your view in terms of how they feel about life post Brexit and their work? They feel very, very concerned and worried about the lack of plan, lack of strategy for the road they're on. You know, farming is a long-term business. We are grubbing out apple orchards, pear orchards,

because we don't have people to pick those crops. So it's a challenging time. There's so much opportunity, and all the young people that are coming into the industry that want to be farming in future are incredibly positive. You know, everybody's always going to need to eat. We're always going to need farmers. But it is having that plan, strategy,

that everybody knows the road that they're on. And that's what's missing, I think, since we left the EU. We've had so much churn and change, been through a lot. So I hope that we can bring that back together. And as I say, take food security as seriously as energy security. You see a lot of legislated targets on green energy, planting trees. We have no target on food yet, which seems extremely remiss. What percentage are we in terms of self-sufficiency with food?

In broad terms, we've been about 60% self-sufficient for two decades, but it is slipping now. And what we're good at producing, we're not going to be producing apples. I mean, oranges and citrus here. No, it was a bit of a stretch for a script segue, so you'll have to forgive me for that. But what we are good at producing, beef, lamb, dairy products, fruit and vegetables. We're not producing nearly enough fruit and vegetables here, putting huge pressure on countries like Spain, Morocco, where you have massive issues with water security.

We have too much water in many parts of the country. And so we can store it and use it in the summer. So there's a massive opportunity to produce much more of what we're good at. And people really say to us that we want to be able to buy locally we want to be able to buy british we really value the whole food miles there's a real energy out there and this is a fantastic market as i say 70 million people they want to buy more british food and we want to produce it is life good as a farmer though but you know i'm looking in france There's some awful statistics about farmers taking their own lives.

And I don't know how the picture is here at the moment. But is it a good life? Because a lot of the time, I know you will have also been asked about more women getting into it. But what's it like for men and women in it? It's tough in that it's 24-7. You know, if you're a livestock farmer, which I am, you're on call 24-7. You never shut the office door. And if something is going wrong in the night, you have to deal with it.

You're farming outside. Your office is outside. So you're at the mercy of every weather event. We've got many parts of the country now in Lincolnshire that are flooded and Nottinghamshire absolutely underwater so farmers storing water which is in many cases stopping businesses and houses flooding in city centres that's that's great but we're losing you know crops you've got potatoes still in the ground so farming is you know it can be tough I mean I I've never regretted my decision to farm. I love it. Absolutely love it. I feel enormously privileged to do it. But it can be tough. Yeah, it can.

Do you think, I mean, the idea we talk about more women getting into lines of work which have been male dominated. And for a lot of women, that's not necessarily how to think about it. It's whether you've had the exposure to it. It's whether you've got an understanding. Maybe there's a family link. I know there was for you but is that something that having been the first woman to to run this particular union to be the president that you wanted to see change or you don't really think that was the point look I think it's every university um college that I speak to they are getting more and more women who want to get involved not necessarily in farming, but in the whole supply chain. So we're seeing a lot more women go to train to be vets. Certainly a lot more women want to come into

farming. And I speak to a lot of young women who say to me, you know, you really, you've really opened doors for me, you've really made me look at it differently. And farming has always been about men and women, you know, they're predominantly small family farms that are run by families across the country. And that shapes the sort of patchwork that we have right across Great Britain. And women have always been the backbone, I would say, of those businesses. I think they just sort of haven't been to the forefront. And the image has sometimes just been of a man as a farmer. That's really changed.

Is there something that you didn't get to do? Funny enough when I came in in 2014 as deputy president of the NFU I really wanted to see a meaningful food strategy how were we going to produce more of what we're good at how were we going to get food back on the curriculum in schools how are we going to teach people to cook because you've got a background as a as a chef i have so i've been passionate and i feel passionately about food and about food is us you know food the food that we eat is us and and the more people can be able to learn to cook learn to cook from scratch the better it is you know all the issues now with highly processed food and the challenges that our diet is facing into.

And I just feel that we've taken it for granted. It's no longer on the curriculum. We are not valuing our food. We're wasting billions of pounds worth of food. So I've always been passionate about trying to move the dial in a positive direction for food production. It doesn't sound like you were able to do that in the end. Well, we've had to deal with events, I guess. And so leaving the EU, three no deal Brexits,

don't forget, that would have been absolutely the biggest disaster for farming, for agriculture in this country. And then in March 2020, we went into lockdown. And for one week only, government thought we were going to run out of food. and I was getting very panicked messages from members of government saying we're going to run out of food what are we going to do you know you can have whatever money you want you can have whatever people and that doesn't last long and then we're back to well life is normal and we'll take food production for granted and the line has been you know we're a wealthy nation we can import That, I think, has been shown to not be fit for purpose. There's a statement here from DEFRA, which the government department is responsible for all of this. Food production is the primary purpose of farming and always will be.

We have committed to maintaining food security in the UK and our policies and schemes, which are now open to farmers, are designed to support this. Agriculture is also at the heart of trade deals we negotiate, prioritising new export opportunities, protecting UK food standards and removing market access barriers. As you leave the presidency of the National Farmers Union, do you recognise that? I have to say I don't really, no, because, you know, we have done trade deals that have really compromised us going forwards. The policy that has replaced the common agricultural policy is about producing environmental crops which is great but we need to produce food as well. So what I've always fought for and what the NFU will continue to fight for is that we do both. We do more for nature and the environment and we absolutely

have the same ambition for food as i say we have legislated targets on green energy on house building on tree planting clean air clean water those are legislated targets we have no targets for producing food and why and just finally why do you think that is i think it's big because that line of we're a wealthy nation we can import our food has been so is that reliance it's because that line of we're a wealthy nation, we can import our food has been... So is that reliance? It's that that you see that doesn't make it a priority in the same way? Absolutely. And, you know... You would have been in many more meetings than anyone else will have in recent times, I'm sure, along those lines. So it's fascinating to get your take as you leave this position.

What were you about to say, sorry, just to finish that? Well, I think if you look back over history, you know, the last agricultural act that was on the back of two world wars in 1947 said that we can never be in this position again. We can never be reliant on other countries. We must produce more food. We were 30% self-sufficient on the back of those two world wars. And 1947 moved the dial forwards and we went actually to 80% self-sufficiency in the 1980s. We've been about 60% but you know this is a real time of change and a real litmus test of all political parties. Are they going to take food seriously? Are they going to have the same ambition as they do for energy? And I don't know the answer to that yet but things need to

change and we need to prioritise producing food. It's just fascinating that there was a concern about actually running out of food during COVID as well. There really was and so many people and it's interesting, actually, when I look at the Labour Party's polling talking to them, they've said there were two things in COVID that really came out. One was not being able to be with loved ones when they were dying or when they were really sick. And the other was not being able to buy the food they wanted when they wanted to buy it.

So they would go to a retailer because we couldn't live out of home anymore. We weren't having our Costa coffees. We were buying everything out of retail and many times they couldn't buy what they wanted. But was that a real threat that we would run out of food? Or was it a concern as that we would run out of food? Or was it a concern as things were being planned for?

No, for certainly a week at the beginning of lockdown, you know, there were real genuine concerns about food supply and food being able to get. We import about 40% of our food from Europe. And there were real concerns that it wasn't going to get here. Of course, you know, that didn't last long. But you are only ever four meals away from anarchy. I think people tend to forget. And almost food production has been such a success story that we take it for granted.

We can go into a store 24-7, buy whatever we want, whenever we want. And I think COVID was a wake-up call that you can't always do that and well there were videos weren't there at the time there was that particular one of a nurse um very upset after a long shift looking at empty shelves um to to try and get some food for her evening meal which again our mind's been taken back there today not least because of our first conversation today with a new drama looking at the the state of hospitals at that time. Manette Batters, thank you for talking to us this morning, the outgoing president of the National Farmers Union. Messages coming in about love tests.

A lot of you don't like them. I'm not surprised. Makes women seem manipulative and needy. If you want your orange peeled, ask rather than hint. And it so carries on. When I was teaching, though, my classroom assistant peeled an orange for me every day at lunchtime. We've been friends for over 25 years.

There you go. Keep those messages coming in about anything that you hear on the programme today, not least displays of love and support. Well, we've been looking at the experiences of women and girls from both Israel and Gaza on the programme this week as the war continues into its fifth month.

Yesterday, we heard about the experiences of women in Gaza where the Hamas-run health ministry says over 28,000 Palestinians have been killed by Israel's response to Hamas' attacks on 7 October. You can listen back to that conversation on BBC Sounds. Today I'm joined by Ayelet Razin-Bet Or, the legal advisor to the Association of Rape Crisis Centres in Israel. She's been travelling the world in recent months, highlighting the horrific evidence of rape, sexual violence and the mutilation of Israeli women during the October 7th brutal attacks and massacring by Hamas, a group recognised as a terrorist organisation by the UK government

that killed 1,200 people and seized an estimated 240 hostages. She says she feels hugely let down and even betrayed by the response she's seen or not, particularly from other women, the global sisterhood. The BBC has seen and heard evidence of such rape and sexual violence and mutilation during those attacks by Hamas on October 7th. I will talk to Ayelet about this in just a moment, as well as her concern for the 14 remaining female hostages still being held by Hamas. But I do want to say there will be descriptions

of sexual violence and rape during this conversation. I'm particularly mindful of the fact that a lot of people are on half-term this week. Ayelet Razimbetul, good morning. Welcome to Woman's Hour. Hi, good morning. Just a correction. I'm the former legal advisor of the Association of the Rape Crisis Centres, among other things. I'm an expert on victims' rights, sexual assault, domestic violence and other things. You are. Thank you for that. And your experience has

led to you being in this situation of talking about, and because of your expertise, of people talking to you about what happened and also how to talk about it to others. Can I start by asking what you understand to have happened on that day as far as sexual-based violence is concerned? Yes, even though, you know, it's just the tip of the iceberg because it's still under investigations. And also, I must say, we'll probably never know because many, many, many of the victims have been murdered after being assaulted. Also, it's important to say that we're not only talking about rapes, we're talking about different crimes of gender-based violence, among other things, mutilation, harassment, touching, stripping, parading naked women and men. So it's different situations of gender-based violence. It's not only rapes, and it's important to say that that's what I'm talking about.

So, yeah, at the beginning, I have to say, we couldn't believe what we heard. You know, I started getting information at the evening of October 7th. People knew to turn to me to ask, and I started looking into it. And the horrific descriptions that we got, with all my heart, I wanted to believe that they're exaggerations, that they're fake. But as we go along, we understand that the things that did actually happen are beyond imagination. And again, we're just at the beginning of the investigation. We're still at war. We have victims that are traumatized, eyewitnesses that are victims themselves and are still traumatized. And you know, these things take time. So we're just at the beginning of understanding what really happened.

And what you were saying there about the different kinds of violence, I mean, the eyewitness testimony that has been reported, for instance, to the BBC and also in a massive piece, which people can look up for the New York Times. There are details of different levels, but it's the depravity of some of these crimes and the descriptions of what some people have been able to share already, which do require people to understand just how violent Hamas were and what the sort of plan seemed to be, as well as killing, it was also to terrorise and to cause a great deal of pain. And I suppose as people describe sexual violence in these conflicts as an act of war, you know, some of the details, I did warn of this, but, you know, female bodies found with their clothing

pulled up to their waist, underpants removed, torn, stained with blood, breasts being sliced off, and Hamas individuals playing with someone's dismembered breasts, severed heads, women's severed heads. I could go on, but those details are very, very difficult to read.

Of course, even more difficult to have seen not let alone if you were in any way a survivor or could be a survivor of any of that but it's important to to try to get that across which you have been trying to do yes and you said something very important that this was systematic pre-planned, and again, unprecedented, the extent and cruelty and intensity of the violence. We have never seen anything like this before. It's not the first time. We know this from different situations of conflict and war around the world that women's bodies are part of the war spoils. But this is something that is unprecedented, the intensity. And we can see the fingerprints of actions like you described, of these crimes like you described, in three different scenes. For instance, the cutting of breasts of women.

And when you understand that this happens in the settlements, in the kibbutzim, in the army bases, and in the Nova Party scene, then you understand that this is what they came to do. This was part of their plan. And it is important to stress this because it is important to understand what kind of enemy we are facing, and not only Israel, the world. And like you said, I really don't think you need to extend more, but we've seen bleeding pelvises, for instance, in all different scenes. They've been shot in the genital areas, mutilated, men and women. I really, I don't want to go on because, you know, this is morning time and people, you know, we don't know who is listening and how this can trigger. But I suppose the point...

It's an understanding. Yeah, it's about an understanding. And we've done this before on this programme in different war settings. And it's an extent as to which you can describe, but it's the trying to ensure, as we were hearing only about COVID, about bearing witness and having a record. And Hamas, an organisation recognised by governments, including this one around the world as a terrorist organization, has denied such sexual assaults and acts of war.

But why do you think with your experience that these individuals, these men did it? When you understand that this was premeditated and this is what they plan to do, because, again, you can see the same kind of actions in three different scenes, it's important to understand it's not one terrorist that, you know, flipped and acted in an exaggerated manner of cruelty. No, it's in three different scenes, three different army, you know, Hamas army forces. And so this is what they can, these were their instructions. They were heavily drugged, you know, to release any inhibition that you might have before doing these kind of atrocities. And this is part, you know, part of the sanitary situation.

And we have a grave, grave concern that they are also, amongst all other things, being subjected to sexual assault. So October 7th is still going on. And there are 14 women amongst those hostages, as I mentioned. But there's indications not only against women, these kind of sexual assaults are being,

this has been reported. I wanted to just make sure while we have time together to get to the point around what you have felt and others have felt has been a silence from women, some women around the world about this. What is underpinning that? Is it ignorance? Is it antisemitism? What is your view? It could be that it could be that it doesn't really, you know, it doesn't really give an answer. It's not a reason I can say that. And my whole entire life, I've been protesting for women, for Yazidi women, for Iranian women, for British women. I flew all the way to Cyprus to protest against the Cyprus judicial system in regard to that young British woman who was raped by Israeli men and was prosecuted in Cyprus for the American women and their reproductive rights freedom.

I've protested all my life. That's feminism. That's feminism. It's about solidarity. It's about sisterhood. And I do not see the same solidarity for Israeli, for Jewish women. I just don't. And children also, let's not forget there's, as we speak, two babies in captive in Gaza. So I'm heartbroken. I'm betrayed. I'm raged at the silence of the UN women. It's not silence. I wish it was silence. It's not silence. I wish it was silence, not silence. It's the condemnation of Israel. And the no,

you know, no talking about the hostages, about the sexual assault, no condemning Hamas for the five first weeks, nothing. There was a statement. World Health Organization, UNICEF. There was a statement that came from UN Women, but late, as many felt. Way, way, way, way late. Unequivocally condemned. Too little, too late. And yes, no, it's a weak statement. But I suppose it does matter why you think there's a silence.

So for instance, some feminist commentators have attributed this sluggishness to the fact that these crimes did not fit within a comfortable oppressors, the oppressed versus the oppressor model. What do you think is the reason for some women who'll be listening to this now thinking, why aren't you talking about what's happening to women in Gaza? And they haven't said anything at all on their social media feeds or to their friends about what we've just discussed to do with Israeli women. What do you say is the reason for it, do you think? Well, let me be clear. I do not deny for a moment the suffering of

innocent people in Gaza. And we are concerned with the loss of life in Gaza. At the same time, it is clear, it has to be clear that there's no other choice or alternative to protect Israeli lives and security. And it most certainly does not give excuse to deny the abuse of all kinds and the continuing holding of hostages in Gaza. And I do not understand and I will not accept the conditioning of our recognition, recognizing the suffering and the pain of Israeli women with other, you know, it's making, it's putting rape into context, politicizing rape and all these atrocities that we talked about is pushing us back tens, maybe hundreds of years and achievements of the women, women's achievements and feminist organizations, achievements in believing all victims, which is, you know, what I've done all my life.

And I feel like the rules changed on me, on us. And, you know, it's, it's not too late to change back. And dealing with anti-Semitism is, you know, I feel like it's a lost. I don't know how to fight anti-Semitism. People who, you know, that's their drive. But the ignorance is something, you know, that a gap you can bridge over if you take the time to learn the facts, to listen, to hear testimonies, to see the footage that the terrorists themselves... There is that footage, which some may have seen. There is also those articles I pointed to. That is all I have time for today.

Ayelet Razin Betul, thank you to you. And thank you for your company today. Back tomorrow at 10. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Thank you so much for your time. Join us again for your company today. Back tomorrow at 10. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Thank you so much for your time. Join us again for the next one. I think the power of the show was crazy back then. The X Factor promised to turn ordinary people into pop stars.

We stood there behind the doors when 16 million people were about to watch you go on stage. And Simon just stood next to you like, good luck, girls, good luck. I'm Chi-Chi Zundu. For years I was a BBC showbiz journalist who covered every twist and turn. I want to go behind the scenes to find out from staff and contestants what it was like. You don't just want average people. You wanted, you know, it was so bad. They were comical. I feel like I was humiliated just for the entertainment. Did the show ever come back and they said to me, Sam, will you come on and do it again? I'd be like, what time do you want me? Over six episodes, I'm looking back at the good and the bad of one of Britain's biggest TV shows. For BBC Radio 4,

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