Woman's Hour - Jodie Comer, Olivia Attwood, Da'Vine Joy Randolph

Episode Date: January 18, 2024

The actor Jodie Comer became a household name playing the glorious baddie Villanelle in BBC drama Killing Eve, and she has gone on to win multiple awards for her work on screen and stage. She joins Emma Barnett now to talk about her latest film, The End We Start From. Think 28 Days Later meets The Day After Tomorrow with a twist – the protagonist is a new mum, who has to navigate a flooded Britain with her baby.Football commentators Eni Aluko and Lucy Ward are reported to be considering legal action against Joey Barton for his recent online criticisms of them. Eni Aluko has released a video on her Instagram speaking about the effect it has had on her. Where is the line between sexist bullying online and freedom of speech? Emma speaks to Henry Winter, Chief football writer at The Times and Seyi Akiwowo, founder of Glitch UK, a charity working to end online abuse, and author of How to Stay Safe Online.Olivia Attwood knows more than most about the financial – and emotional – cost of cosmetic treatments. The former Love Island contestant and star of The Only Way Is Essex has been open about the surgeries and 'tweakments' she has had. In her new ITV series The Price of Perfection, she goes behind the scenes to watch butts being lifted, lips being filled and breasts being enlarged. But she wants to make sure that teenage girls don’t make the mistakes she herself made.Da’Vine Joy Randolph has just won this year’s Golden Globe Award for Best Supporting Actress in a Motion Picture for her portrayal of Mary Lamb in Alexander Payne’s new film The Holdovers. It’s about a teacher, pupil and head cook who end up spending Christmas together at a New England boarding school in the early 1970’s. Mary is grieving the loss of her son, who has been killed in Vietnam. Da’Vine has been tipped for more awards recognition to come, and she joins Emma in the Woman’s Hour studio.

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Emma Barnett and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Good morning and welcome to the programme. We have a packed show today with not one but two incredible actors. Jodie Comer will be here to talk about her new role as London and much of the UK goes underwater just after her character has her first baby. That's a very dramatic film, we'll be talking about that a lot

more. And fresh from her Golden Globe win, Dave-I-Enjoy Randolph is going to be here too, to talk about what her character has given her and many other women she feels. But we start today looking at comments that would be easy to ignore, dismiss the idea. In fact, when talking about this today, you think, should we even give this any oxygen? But for two women, that really isn't an option. And I'm talking about the comments from the former footballer Joey Barton, who has criticised the former footballer turned ITV pundit Enia Luko. He lambasted her performance,

talking about the men's game as a commentator and her ITV colleague Lucy Ward. He's now doubled down on those comments. And as he sees it, to paraphrase, because some of the language is so bad, I can't repeat it, their terrible work reporting on the men's game. And after Eni responded yesterday,

we'll play some of this in a moment, in a video on social media saying she was genuinely scared to leave the house since his comments Joey Barton's response was something along the lines of cry me an expletive river I was waiting for the victim card to be played Eni sorry love you're dreadful as a pundit tone deaf can't count and most importantly you know next to nothing about men's football and so it continues and as I say we we definitely could have ignored it there people have been invited on this morning who don't want to give any oxygen to this and decline to come on Women's Hour and while I accept that and I understand that it's still happening it's a reality and what I wanted to ask of you today

as we see that Eni has done this video and put it out there, as I say, we'll play some in just a moment. What are you meant to do in that situation? What is a response? How would you respond? How should you? Maybe you have had to defend yourself, even though you don't merit your attacker's argument. Where is that line between giving an opinion and abuse and sexism in this place where is it what do you do with it what is the fight back as it were or not and what will make you feel like you've handled it if it has happened to you or could happen to you or just giving your opinion on this situation you can text me here um 84844 That's the number you need to be texting. Text will be charged at your standard message rate. On social media, we're at BBC Woman's Hour.

Or send a WhatsApp message or voice note using the number 03700100444. But Joey Barton comparing Ennia Luko, I should say, in these first comments, and her fellow ITV pundit Lucy Ward, he compared them in quite a bizarre part of this to the serial killers too, Fred and Rose West. They are now reported to be considering legal action against him for those comments. And that video that I mentioned that Annie released on Instagram, let's just have a listen to some of that.

I've been scared this week. I've genuinely been scared this week. I didn't leave my house until Friday and I'm now abroad because it's really important to say that online abuse has a direct impact on your safety and how you feel, how safe you feel in real life. I felt under threat this week.

I felt like something was going to happen to me. Let's talk first to Henry Winter, Chief Football Writer at The Times. Good morning. Morning Emma, how are you? Well, I'm okay and I suppose I'm trying to think about what you might have been thinking about this and with what you know of Joey Barton and the men's game and the women's game. Well, first with Joeyey barton there is a constituency out there whether it's on social media or whether going into games that actually agree with some of his views and but i mean as you say the moment he uses uh phrases descriptions

like fred and rose west to as comparisons with two pundits he's obviously lost the argument he also loses the argument i mean i've I've interviewed Joey down the years, and I never played the game at elite level, as Ennio Lucco did, 100 caps for England. I don't know what it's like to step out in a World Cup game. I've not played at a top level like Lucy Ward. My limit is the dog and duck, but I've spent the last 35 years piling about football,

and no one's really complained about that so I think his argument you know he completely loses it but don't ignore the fact there are some people who will echo his sentiments but we should absolutely be encouraging young girls to go and play football we have you know we have issues with obesity with with body image we should be encouraging I mean Elie Luk lucas a fantastic role model with what she's achieved she's very intelligent she you know she was talking at harvard last year when i wanted insight into the women's world cup final i rang up any luco for peace for the times and she talked so intelligently and it was one of the best pieces out there as a preview to the game not because because of anything I've done, but because of any of Luko's experience. Ditto with Lucy Ward.

There are players, men's players, who Joey Barton has played with, who she helped develop at Leeds United when she was working in their academy there. So to dismiss their expertise, their knowledge, their tactical mouse is just so wrong by Joey Barton. What do you think he's doing well i think he's

got too much time on his hands and he needs to put his mobile phone down i mean you know don't dismiss him as someone who's who is thick you know he's actually quite he's an you can have an intelligent conversation with joey but joey also will go off on a rant i mean i've had long interviews with him and played the take back and there's been like a sort of five minute just rant in the middle of it. And you go, well, where's that come from? So there is that element to Jerry Barton's character. As you said, you described him as a former footballer.

I mean, he is, you know, he has been managing. He's recently left Bristol Rovers. And, you know, if he was at Bristol Rovers, the Football Association would actually have stepped in and they would have charged him with bringing the game into disrepute. But because he's not under the umbrella of the game at the moment, he can come out with these ridiculous comments. And, you know, I'm just looking at what he said after BBC Sports Personality of the Year with Mary Earps winning. He said jockey Frankie Dettori and Ronnie O'Sullivan, snooker champion, had lost to a big sack of spuds

that plays in goal for a girls' team. When you see comments like that, when you read comments like that, in terms of what a response should be, we'll get to that in just a moment, but I suppose because of what you've just said, saying, you know, don't dismiss him as someone who doesn't know what he's saying,

it's very hard to know what to do with that and also how to respond. And to add to that, the worrying thing is he will know the impact that he will have. And you just played Ennio Luco's clip. She sounds scared. And it's not simply the abuse that she gets online, which is stirred up by Joey Barton. But also, you know, she sounds scared to go out the house. And what sort of world are we living in when you're getting reactions like that? So, I mean, coming back to the uh Mary Earps I mean she was fantastic it was a poor year for for British sport the it's kind of the name is on the tin it's personality Mary Earps

got fantastic personality the way she took on Nike on the uh the women's goalkeepers top was fantastic great step forward for for the for the profession and there will be lots of girls who are going into school saying i want to be mary ertz so i think that there was an athlete who should have won it who wasn't on the short list but in there's a broader context here emma is that there are men's uh pundits who also get stick as well but i just think joey barton and if i'm sort of criticizing any pundit you have to be aware of the resonance on social media which is pretty toxic particularly towards women. I suppose it just also makes certain things about football ring completely hollow that you know that

it is a space for women that it is somewhere where women are respected that you can have a discussion about someone's talent and not bring their sex into it. And as you say, some people will agree with him and also agree with the comments that are sexist and pejorative. I think that most people are actually supportive of women's football. You look at the reaction when the Spanish female player, who got kissed by the probably most important, most powerful man in Spanishanish football head of their federation he's had to stand down he was absolutely shamed the chorus of criticism towards him was deep and widespread i think what we've seen with the

explosion in women's football in the last sort of 10 years has been fantastic particularly you know we do have a problem with childhood obesity in this country with the lack of opportunities for girls to play sport at school and football in particular. And the day after the Euro finals a couple of years ago, Leah Williamson, the captain, who's just one of the best role models you could ever meet in life, let alone in sport. She challenged the government to invest more in women's sport. So this is key. So there is this incredible rise and explosion in the women's game. And we've got some fantastic role models. But clearly, there's still quite a few misogynists out there. Henry Winter, Chief Football Writer at The Times, thanks for bringing us your experience of interviewing Joey Barton and also talking about the game and who you speak to and how you read

it at the moment let's bring in Shea Akiwowo founder and chief executive of Glitch UK a charity working to end online abuse and also she's the author of How to Stay Safe Online. Shea good morning. Good morning how are you Emma? Well I'm interested in in your view on what you should do what can be done when you find yourself in this situation or something similar yeah sadly we know that this um this incident that any um going through the aftermath that she's having to deal with is not an isolated incident we know that uh every 30 seconds a woman is abused on twitter slash x we know that black women are 84 percent more likely to be abused

online and we know that women are 27 times more likely to be abused online than men. This is a real issue. And if we are wanting to encourage more women, more girls into sports, as we've heard earlier, then we really need to tackle the barriers. So my heart goes to any right now. Yeah, no, so that's important. But I suppose what would you do if you're in that situation? What could you advise?

You do the video and then you see a doubling down of the comment it's um it's a very difficult one to know how to feel good in a response not good but you know what i mean like you've done something yeah i don't think it's for anyone to prescribe what someone should do some people do want to ignore it as you mentioned at the top of your show some people do want to call it out they can do and any having to leave the country for her peace i think it's an individual decision i think what we all can do though is be active by standards making sure that this is not something that any is going through on her own there are three things that i would encourage us all to do right now is send a supportive message to any she's been bombarded by a lot of abuse right now so we need to overcome that we need to double down on the positive messages and reinforcing that she's done

an amazing job and she's an amazing leader we should screenshot any abuse that we've doubled down on the positive messages and reinforcing that she's done an amazing job and she's an amazing leader we've just screenshot any abuse that we see and report it we'd be putting pressure on tech companies because they are not doing enough to allow the comments to just be on existing on these social media platforms and we need to be amplifying the work that any does because we know it's extremely hard for women in football and it's extremely hard for black women in football so we can do three key things right now to show our support and say that people like Joey are a minority. And Shay, just to say,

I know it's been reported that she's left the country because of this. Actually, she's left because she's working on a particular tournament. But the point that she was making about not feeling like

leaving the house is still within there and very valid. And to your point, she's trying to carry on with the job and anything that could make her feel better in doing that. But I suppose putting out this video

and then receiving that response will have been very difficult indeed because she's tried to have her voice heard only to not be able to change minds. And I'm increasingly interested in how you actually change people's minds. I think you can't change everybody's minds, but I think there are some people

that are wanting to be better. We've seen that since 2020 with Black Lives Matter. people are wanting to undergo their own education and unlearn people are wanting to be better after sarah everett around women's safety so there are people out there so we need to talk to them and we need to isolate those that are continuing to cause and see division in our society and i must say that i am too concerned at the state of play that in 2024 this is what is being said and we've got rumoured elections happening this year this makes me really concerned for our future politicians for our elected officials for our elections in London this is not just an incident that's happening in football this is happening everywhere which is why we need to be banding

together to say tech companies do more send supportive messages to those that are putting their head above the parapet and say we're not standing for this abuse anymore. Shea Akiwowo, thank you for coming on. Founder and Chief Executive of Glitch UK. That's a charity working to end online abuse. About that, of course, there's the Online Safety Act, which we've covered before in detail on this programme. Perhaps too soon for any of those impacts to have been felt.

But you're getting in touch with what you would do in this situation. And someone very keen to say, I do not defend Barton, but there are some poor male commentators and I'm sure there are poor female commentators as well. Please do not lose fair criticism in the midst of valid comments about Barton's sexism or where that line is, is where we've been interested to discuss.

But let me tell you who's just walked into the studio. My next guest became a household name, playing a glorious baddie Villanelle in the BBC drama Killing Eve. She's gone on to win multiple awards for her brilliant work on screen and stage. I'm, of course, talking about Jodie Comer. Now, in the film, the end we start from, think 28 Days Later meets The Day After Tomorrow with a twist. The protagonist, instead of a, I don't know,

a lonely man wandering across some barren land, is a new mum who's having to navigate a flooded Britain with her baby strapped to her. Jodie Comer, good morning. Morning, how are you? All the better for seeing you. Thanks for coming in to join us. Welcome to Woman's Hour.

Such a pleasure. Thanks for having me. They do say don't work with children and animals, but what about newborns? They say that as well it's funny whenever you you know whenever I would tell someone that I was working with a baby in every scene of this film they would be like oh you know they kind of know the the difficulties that that um presents itself with for instance like time I think we had 15 babies in total on set and they have a break every 20 minutes.

Even greater demands than most. Yeah. Well, now that's in my now that's in my rider guys. I'm like 20 minutes. I'm going to take a break. I'm going to have a cup of tea. But that must have been you're not yet a mother. I don't know if you've been around a lot of children, but it must have been something to to be getting to grips with that. Yeah. A lot of my younger cousins have grown up now so I'm not around babies all that often I was very fortunate that one of my best friends had a baby just before I started which was amazing to be able just to witness kind of the beauty of her evolution and be able to ask her the real kind of nitty-gritty questions of like what is this honestly like or what does this honestly feel like you know which was which was brilliant and then of course you know the production provided so many resources whether it was you know speaking to midwives and

spent time with the babies before we got to set and and I read that the um the director was inspired to direct her first feature film after giving birth during the pandemic which you know of course the pandemic isn't like the whole world going underwater and as physical in some of the ways that this film comes across. But it is a reality that a lot of women have gone through recently. Yeah, and I think my understanding, Mahalia Bello, my director, she had read the book prior to the pandemic

and then was actually sent Alice Birch's script during the pandemic when she'd had her baby and suddenly had this, she'd always loved the book, but suddenly had this new found connection to it. And so, yeah, I think there's a lot of people who will relate to Woman. I think that's another reason why I was drawn to it. Like you said on the intro is that

she feels to me like an everyday hero. You know, she's someone who I recognize myself within I see people who I know in her you know and I think that allows you to just resonate in a different way you know she's dealing with it on a very in a very human on a very human level I mean I'm not gonna give anything away but one of the big questions that comes to mind when you watch it because it's a love story as well as a story of survival as well is what would you do you know you can't go back to your house you've just had a baby I mean these are extreme circumstances but there are opportunities for her to escape and be safe that she has to fight for yeah and then she has a bit of a choice doesn't she about whether it's to a new future or going back and fighting and I wonder as a person where you come out on that oh well I'm incredibly sentimental I think

I'd be going back I think I'd be doing exactly what um she did I think what's beautiful about that moment is she meets a woman called O who's played by the amazing Catherine Waterston and um very different women I think in their demeanor and their sensibility but there's something that O gives her you know we explore that kind of platonic love of friendship and I think through O's strength um and her kind of knowledge of self woman gets to a point where she's able to actually say and commit to what she wants to to do you know I think if you asked woman like prior to this happening if this was to happen how do you think you would cope I think she'd say I wouldn't cope at all but the fact is

when you have no other choice to I think it can be surprising what you're able to summon within yourself you know and I think that's also something we can all, that is true to life and we can all relate to. We should say that this is your character's name. Yes, her name, yes. She's called Woman. So in the book, nobody has a name apart from Zeb, who's the baby, which, you know, I think again, that means that these people could be any of us.

I haven't had enough conversations with people who've seen the film to see if that's something that is very obvious to them when watching or if it was more an afterthought of going, oh, hang on a minute. I don't even know what those people are called. It wasn't a thing I thought about

because I think there's so much drama going on that you're trying to stay with the characters. But you mentioned that friendship and I wanted to talk about it, especially female friendship. But you mentioned that friendship and I wanted to talk about it, especially female friendship. Here you are, let's just listen to a clip with Catherine Waterston,

excuse me, opening up to her about how your grief for your parents led to you having a child. God, I couldn't get out of bed. He was so kind. I mean, he looked after me so brilliantly We didn't even know each other that well

We hadn't known each other long enough to I get it I went on this mad I want a baby quest. No, I didn't stop. We didn't grieve properly. You just head down, get pregnant, get through it. Get through it. But I think I only wanted one so I could stop being so afraid of dying.

You know, so I could have something of my own that I would die for in a heartbeat. Be second. That's OK. I don't think anyone has a baby for altruistic reasons. I love that line. I know, it's so good. There is a great darkness of comedy and bonding between you in there. But it's that friendship and the way that they help each other with their babies isn't something you usually see in apocalypse movies and between women, is it?

No, not at all. Not at all. And I think it was integral, you know, to them getting through, you know, what they're able to give each other within this um this moment and also what's that what that is like you know if you take away the the kind of crisis of the climate it's like what that's like anyway being a new mother um you know as it is and getting to grips with being a mother and the other mothers around you and it all being so new and unfamiliar. It's really, really beautiful. And it feels very, very honest. I think their friendship provides a lot of levity within the film.

Yes. Yeah. And it is actually my daughter's first birthday today, so I'm thinking of a year of new life in my life. And the women that you do that with, you find yourself around, I mean mean the gallows humor has to be there in my case some vodka which they also have at one point within this film yeah Benedict Cumberbatch just appeared listen he's always coming through that was a bit of a moment uh out of fire with him and you and him doing some good moves and I did put that that particular song on my playlist afterwards it's such a good song that was also Benedict's idea it was brilliant we like we

were we shot that on a Friday and it was a full moon like the largest moon I've ever seen we were dancing around this fire and we had like the last 10 minutes of the day to to shoot this dance moment um which felt very cathartic I think for everyone it was so much fun it was it was just to get there and then and I just think that those bonds that you make I mean it'll be interesting if you should you ever go on to have your own family how you'll look back on this and whether I don't know if it's put you off is it sold motherhood to you is it made you think about it differently it's made me think about it differently absolutely I think but you know I've said this before but I think before going into this I didn't really feel like I had a maternal instinct you know it wasn't like a part of myself that I felt like I'd accessed

um and then going into this and just I don't know just learning and finding becoming more comfortable and um I just feel like I've stepped into a new version of myself. You know, it was beautiful. And just to have like a newfound appreciation of like how selfless it is and what it demands of you. And also what really struck me actually is, you know, the complex relationship that a lot of women then have with their own bodies, you know. And they feel unrecognizable to themselves or unrecognizable to their partner. And like just it's, I just have so much respect for women I think it's interesting with well I do too um on every level yeah and what you do to your body it's a whole other thing yeah to live in these bodies but um the thing I was going to say from your career looking through I mentioned obviously Villanelle do you carry her around with you as a character? No, no. She doesn't stay.

She's in the box. She's in the box. Because you seem to choose, you've said yourself, characters and roles that challenge you, mean something to you. You've talked about some of the research that you've done. And I was fortunate enough to see you on stage in Prima Facie. To remind people, you went to the West End with this,

your first time in the West End. Then Broadway, took it by storm, winning amazing awards. That one woman played by Susie Miller, who we had on the programme, and it was about a criminal defence barrister working in rape cases who was then sexually assaulted herself. How much of that do you carry with you when you do a role like that? Yeah, I think theatre is very different um is what I learned um I I feel like that took a little bit longer to to shake off um purely just because it's a very emotional piece which you're you know sometimes you're performing

twice a day for an hour and 40 minutes and you're going from the start of the story to the very end so you're like living through that entire thing every day and it's a one-woman show and it's a one-woman show so I just think energetically it can kind of zap you of course then there's also the kind of like transference of energy that you're having with 800 people in that theatre which can just be so invigorating and then but then mean that when you go home you can't really switch off do you know what do you know what I mean it's um but you just have to take care of yourself you know it's just any just doing little things that like calm your nervous system and get you relaxed and um ready for the next day have you felt fear in your life as a woman because a lot of women

have written to you about their situations but But what has it been like for you? I mean, I feel incredibly privileged that this play had the effect that it did, whether that be someone feeling like they're able to now tell a family member or a friend or seek help. You know, I felt very honoured that people wrote to me and shared those experiences because they're incredibly personal, you know, and some people, you know, can't even tell the ones who they're closest to. So to just experience and see firsthand how the play had helped people was remarkable, you know.

And we knew as soon as we did the first show in London and the audible response from people, like, in regards to emotion, was so palpable and very loud. And it was in that moment that we were like, oh, this play is bigger than the sum of its parts. Like, this is in service of something much bigger. Well, it's so clever because the main character has to see everything from the other point of view

and suddenly go through what she... I mean, I always think there must be a show in that that you go and be the thing that you work as, you know, doctors who then give... who, I don't know, you know, deliver babies then when they have their own baby, they have a experience you know or a firefighter god forbid their house is then on fire when you experience your own world back at you you can then hopefully be a lot better at it yeah of course you never think you're going to be in that position you know what i mean it's

like she never thought she would be in that position um so it's not something i imagine it was something that passed her mind but not something that she gave too much attention to because it's like, well, this is the black and white of the law. These are the rules. This is where I stand. And then, of course, that is completely turned on its head. And then you're faced with how you feel you've behaved or, you know, how you've made people feel. It's something, of course, that we talked about with women women's safety especially there was something in the air because of of protests and um we talked about the pandemic but you know the the raping abducting the killing of sarah everard there had been a moment that it was then seemingly after i think for for women in particular which made that and when i was there as well electric yeah theater well it's alarming you know It's like we were in the rehearsal room,

I can't remember, four or five weeks before, you know, and a lot of the statistic in the UK is that one in three women have experienced sexual assault. You know, and we're running through the play and I'm saying this every day and then you look around the rehearsal room and, you know, there's maybe seven women in that room and then you get into a theater and there's 900 people and

then you're faced again with that number that is they're not just numbers they're people you know what I mean it's just like you realize how big a problem it it is and you know I spent a lot of time and was able to go to the old bailey before I started and sit sitting on a couple on a couple of cases they weren't sexual assault trials but yeah it's just like something has to I've explored sexual assault in a couple of projects and it always feels like when I do it's you know often what I get is oh god it's just so timely and it's just like I just would love nothing more than to get to a point where that isn't the case you know what's the next thing for you do you think challenging? Is there a sort of role that you've got your eye on?

Is there a role I've got an eye on? I'd love to do a musical. I really want to get into something where I have to maybe train, whether that's dancing or singing or something like I've got to immerse myself in again like the play of like okay if I had to do this tomorrow it would be a failure but if I have you know some time some time to prepare like I could actually really hone a skill what is that about you where you you really want it to be difficult I don't know I give myself a hard time I guess I don't know I think it's um no I think it's just honestly I wanted to find the challenge like I think if you feel like you're revisiting something

it can feel a little stale you know and I'm like okay I feel a bit stagnant whereas if there's an element of fear I know that I'm like stepping stepping out my comfort zone and I think that's where growth is you know do you like do you like being famous um and like what does famous what's it like I I hate that I mean I understand that that is what what people would say about me I don't see myself as that because I'm I live such a my life is very normal do you know what I mean I'm not I don't really gallivant around in those types of circles I think

accepting that your anonymity is something that you know slowly gets kind of stripped can sometimes be tricky but you know

when you want to walk the shop without a bra on and then you know you get Pat with no bra on. Has that happened? It has. And I was like, but then I was like, well, I don't...

Did you have a see-through top on? No, I didn't. I didn't. But I'm like, I don't want to change the way I want to live. You know? Sometimes you want to go out without a bra on. I don't have that option being of the heavier mammary load. But if I could go

to the shop without, I mean, the first thing I do, Jodie, when I get an identity is to take the brara off. Yeah. Are you the same?

Yeah. Are you even up the stairs by that point? No. It's off. Door off. So those little things. We'll take that.

It's very trivial in the grand scheme of the world. You never know what's going to come out in Woman's Night. That's the whole space i try to create we try to create it would be very remiss i don't ever like to miss a question but you did say about dancing and training one then thinks of strictly i don't know if you've heard of it oh yes i took my nan

to strictly once um which was i mean she was obsessed with strictly and then i i don't know if like the experience kind of killed her for her because she was like, oh, there's a lot of cameras in the way. You know, it was like I'm struck in her view. Live shows, seeing them live is not always the best. No, the magic went for her. I felt terrible, actually. I was like, oh no, I thought I was like gifting her this experience.

Don't you think the greatest gift to be given is you on it? That's maybe true. I mean, I love her, but I don't know if I can give her that. I don't think so, no, no. I can appreciate it and, you know, but I don't know. I don't think it's, I don't think that's for me. That's one reality too far. Yeah, I think so.

I think so. It's too exposing. You'd definitely wear a bra on Strictly. Jodie Comer, a woman after my own heart. Sorry that happened to you, but definitely still go to the shop with no bra on, with a decent soundtrack. It all started with The End We Start From,

which is the film. Congratulations on it. Thank you so much. It's a delight to meet you. And we've got lots of messages coming in, especially also those who were lucky enough to see you in the West End. It's a delight to meet you. And we've got lots of messages coming in, especially also those who were lucky enough to see you in the West End. It's in cinemas from tomorrow, that movie.

The end we start from her character is Woman, if you were thinking we'd forgotten the name. That is the name. Jodie, all the best to you. Thank you so much. And messages coming in from some of our previous discussions as well and also what we've just been listening to

in that conversation, just listening to you that conversation just listening to you interviewing Jodie Comer my mum took me to see Prima Fasci and Jodie was phenomenal a stunning ovation at the end and I can honestly say I cried it was so good and everyone needs to be educated about this my mum absolutely loves you Jodie and so it carries on and talking about Joey Barton and how to respond as with all criticism, the best action is to continue doing an excellent job. Ultimately, actions speak louder than words. And if you continue doing your job well, people will see that for themselves.

That is my own experience in this situation. That's Jenny's take. I can't believe I'm hearing this. Read this message. Joey Barton needs to have a reality check in this day and age. If you cannot put your opinion across without making it personal or degrading, then it might be time to keep your misplaced opinion to yourself and your private circle of friends and sports pundits, private circle of friends, sports pundit or bitter person. And it keeps on coming. I'll come back to some of those. I'm Sarah Treleaven. And for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered.

There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this?

From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now. Let me tell you who's just walked in after Jodie Comer has left. We have Olivia Atwood, the former Love Island contestant, star of The Only Way is Essex, who has been open in the past about her surgeries and the treatments that she's had and is now fronting a new ITV series, The Price of Perfection,

going behind the scenes to watch. Butts being lifted, lips being filled, breasts being enlarged. Have you done any of this? You can let us know. But let's have this conversation first. Olivia Atwood, welcome to Woman's Hour. Hi, thank you for having me. Can I start by asking, because you fronted this series and it's a multi-part series, what treatments and surgeries you've had? Yeah, of's a multi-part series, what treatments and surgeries

you've had? Yeah of course and in the series we kind of lean into my own experiences and part of the reason I wanted to make the films. So I've done two breast augmentations and then several tweakments as we refer to them now. What is a treatment? So injectables I guess

Botox, a bit of filler and I've done skin treatments. There's so many on the market. And I tried out several more while making the show. Okay. And I'm going to say this as politely as I can, but I'm not known for mincing my words. I can see that you've had work in your face. Isn't the point not to be able to see it?

Well, I mean, I think it depends on what you're hoping to achieve. So something we lean into across the whole series is trends, something that I definitely am open to being a victim of. For example, my first breast enlargement, although I didn't realise it at the time, was obviously very influenced by the images that I was consuming in papers, you know, in magazines, online. And I went with a decision that was fashion kind of led,

which then meant, you know, several years down the line that I had these oversized breast implants and I was in discomfort and I had to, you know, go in for a second augmentation. To reduce them? To reduce them. And it's a trend that we see, you know, a lot, especially of young women. Unfortunately, our bodies are always up for discussion in a sense of a trend and trends around being slim or having a big bum or having big lips. And, you know, especially.

Do you feel you were a victim in that sense? Not a victim. I think a victim maybe is too strong a word. But I think I, I became, became yeah I became a result of that I didn't think I was being influenced by things I saw but clearly I was yes and and we all are we're very visual culture but with the fact that you then had your breasts um reduced but you still continue to have other tweakments as that I mean I hate the word treatment it sounds really cute there's some really bad stuff going on people aren't always licensed you've looked into this as well um but you know having having some treatments to your face having fillers put in all of that you've continued to do it so it's it's difficult isn't it when you're looking at this because you're also feeding for some people the issue yeah for sure

i think the documentary is looking at the industry as a whole, a cross-section of what people are having done, their motivation, what they're spending. And you find, I mean, we're not going through the documentary, people can go and watch it on ITV, but you do find that for some women, they think it will earn them more money if they have an OnlyFans account. Absolutely.

Through to very young women indeed, who are doing it because that's what they think they should look like. Yeah. I mean, the age of which the girls especially are looking at cosmetic enhancements now was shocking to me. It's not something that I was ever aware of at that age. I think, like you say, do I perpetuate that culture by the way that I look and my social media? Possibly, yes. But I think by being honest about it it's a double-edged sword I think you're damned if you do damned if you don't if I you know were to deny which many people in my

industry choose to go down that road I think you're also creating a unachievable beauty standard that then young girls don't understand well how does her body look that way or this way yes so it's good to be honest that's your point but you're still doing it so i'm doing it how old are you now if you don't mind i'm 31 you're 31 and again i don't mean this is disrespectfully but because we now live in this kind of crazy world where there's a look of how you look if you've had yeah treatments and you know this as well the trend as well is this whole don't look like you're really wearing makeup don't look like you've had things done but we all know because we've got a visual language between us when a

face doesn't look quite how it might have looked you know why don't you stop I mean I'm quite happy with the way that I look and you know I I've been having Botox and skin treatments the last couple of years and it's something that makes me feel good and something that I'm you know I'm happy to do I'm an adult woman it's my decision I go you know down the correct path I'm you know I never have my face touched by anyone who doesn't have a medical license um but you are 31 I suppose that's the issue here isn't it with younger and younger yeah some people say it's preventative they have all these lines about that I think that's marketing language I think it's I I think it's just to be clear it really is it is and I think that you know that is something that I would you know anyone that's telling someone they should be

having Botox in their early 20s to prevent aging is probably not being entirely truthful I think you look a bit older than 31 thank you that's gonna sound you know you come across really mature you look old in inverted commas whatever that means but you actually look um because there's now something associated with how people look you you you definitely don't look younger than 31 that's what I'm saying so what is that I don't think that I'm trying to look younger than 31 I mean I'm just I'm just but you're incredibly that I'm trying to look younger than 31. I mean, I'm just... But you're incredibly beautiful.

I'm just looking, you know, as a version of myself. What do you think about the fact there's just now a look? You know, and I interview lots of people who have it. And you look phenomenal. You know, people adore how you look. You've got a great sense of style. But you've put yourself, suppose in this story so you must have had feedback about why do you keep doing it and your role that you're playing in it I think that as women unfortunately the way we look is always the first thing that's commented on I think whether you have

tweakments as we're calling them or you don't people are going to have an opinion and that's just a fact and do you think we can come back having done your work and spoken to so many people now i think we've been judging women on the way they look since the beginning of time and this is goes way before instagram culture it goes way before you know the rise of plastic surgery i think this is just an evolution of that and i think that plastic surgery and cosmetic treatments are not going anywhere but if by making this show I can help educate younger women to not make some of the mistakes I've made or the many people we meet in this documentary then I think that's helpful. I meant also do you think and I know that's your your goal for doing it which is a great goal and

I you know I think it's a really watchable series. So well done on that. And there's obviously really good intention there. But do you think we'll ever stop doing this now we've done it? Because we sort of love technology. We love the pursuit of it across society. I mean, the figures would suggest no, because the numbers of people seeking cosmetic treatment year on year grow rapidly. So it doesn't seem that way i think in

terms of the industry we're seeing a big rise in uh you know non-invasive treatments energy-based products skincare i think maybe people are going to start to move away from injectables in favor of those treatments because there's so much available now that wasn't there five ten years ago um but like you say there's a desire for this naturally perfect but it's not natural at all look that I think unfortunately isn't people are not going to stop wanting that no and and as I say it's it's sort of visible and and are you happy now do you think you're I think you know I'm not someone that's done surgery to my face or anything if you kind of if you look at my face over the last 10 years it's changed you know I you put a photo up didn't you recently of of looking back at an

image yeah I mean I around the time back you know coming off Love Island I had a huge amount of filler in my lips and people around me used to say you've got too much filler in your lips they say no no i don't because as we all know you become blind to yourself look at yourself in the mirror every day especially when you do what i do for a job i look at my face way more than i wish to or i need to and two things happen you one see things that aren't there and then you also become blind to things like filler and you have a little bit and then you want more and now look back at a photo of me two or three years ago i think oh my gosh i can't believe i had that much filler in my lips

and that is what happens unfortunately when you see that you know with people that do dabble in cosmetic surgery not always i think it can be life-changing when it's done you know by the right person but are you are you happier now you know yeah I mean I've do you know what the strange thing and I this is where I on making this film I was never been unhappy with the way I look I always you know my mum was always very you know you should be happy with what you've got when I wanted to do my breast she was like this she was fighting yeah she was like you know you're lucky you've got long legs you've got this And when I wanted to do my breasts, she was like this. She was fighting you. Yeah, she was like, you know, you're lucky. You've got long legs. You've got this.

Other people haven't got that. You can't have everything. Be grateful. You know, I was headstrong and stupid, I think would be fair at that age. We all are in many ways. Yeah. I thought I knew. I was worried you were doing something permanent to your body.

Exactly. So interestingly for me, it's never been a case of, you know, I could have lived quite happily without having done anything. It was, yeah, just. I just think what you've hit upon as well is what people know, what they don't know. And you want to be honest. And it's not that I think you look older. I think this idea that you can always look younger is something to also dispel. Yeah.

I mean, I think, yeah, it's a hard one. It's an interesting... It's a hard one, yeah. And I bet you could see it a mile off on people as well because you know what you're looking for. And I wonder if you can because you're in this industry and you meet a lot of people, but I think you'd be surprised how many people can't see it.

Do you think? Yeah, absolutely. And then people don't know and then they don't know why people look a certain way, which is your point. If you think? Yeah, absolutely. And then people don't know and then they don't know why people look a certain way, which is your point. If you think of our big Hollywood stars, I think a lot of people

wouldn't believe half the stuff they've had done. And we're looking at them on screen. Yeah. And then that's a bigger issue if we don't see how women's faces really move, which is a whole other discussion.

It's lovely to have you on the programme. Thank you. Good luck with the documentary, with the series and The Price of Perfection is the name of it and it's on ITV. Olivia Atwood, all the best. Thank you so much. Thank you. Very honest discussion there. Messages coming in. I had breast augmentation

approximately 20 years ago after being very unhappy, finally culminating in a whole class of year 7 students shouting Miss is flat chested at me. I kept it to a size that suited my frame. I just wanted to pass under the radar and have no more comments one way or the other. I don't regret it,

but I wish society would stop thinking it's okay to comment on women's bodies. And so the message is carry on coming in. Also what you would say to somebody who criticised you in the way that Joey Barton has with regard to the vitriol about female commentators. Joey who? That is the response.

But let me tell you who's just joined us because I did say we had not one but two incredible actors on Woman's Hour today. If you followed the coverage of this year's Golden Globe Awards you will have seen that my next guest won Best Supporting Actress in a Motion Picture for her portrayal of Mary Lamb in Alexander Payne's new film, The Holdovers. It's about a

teacher, pupil and head cook who end up spending Christmas together at a New England boarding school in the early 1970s. Mary is grieving the loss of her son, who has been killed in Vietnam. The actor who has played her has been tipped off for even more award recognition to come. I wish her all the best with that and has just joined us, Davine. Joy Randolph, good morning. Good morning, how are you? Lovely to have you here. Thank you, I'm so happy to be here.

Congratulations, if I can start with that, on your award. Thank you, thank you very much. How did that feel, hearing your name and that recognition for that role which has meant so much to you? Oh, it was surreal um I think no matter how much you do this it never gets old um and then too to keep in mind you know it's um it's a industry in which you're very, to be an actor can be quite lonely. And you're very to yourself and in your trajectory, your tunnel vision. And you never know how people are going to respond.

I started in theater, but with TV and film, you don't know, you don't have that immediate audience interaction. And so when you do find out that people are responding, in particular that critics are enjoying it and voters and such, it's really a powerful moment. Let's hear a clip of you as Mary and Paul Giamatti as the teacher that she's holding over with. I was engaged to Curtis's father, but he died before I gave birth. Harold.

He worked in the shipyard. And one day they was carrying this big cargo pallet and the cable snapped. Hit him right across the head. They were good men. Both of them. And neither of them made it to 25. My baby wasn't even 20. I'm so sorry. I took this job when Curtis was small because I wanted to ensure that he was going to have a good education. You know he flourished here. Yes. No, he was a great kid. I had him one semester. Very insightful.

Mm-hmm. He hated you. He said you were a real asshole. Well, like I said, sharp kid, insightful. I love the way you just delivered that. Stone cold, that. insightful i love the way you just delivered that stone cold that um but it's a it's a very painful reality that your character is grappling with uh he was a student your son in the film at the school on a scholarship but his future wasn't protected the way his wealthier classmates were exactly yeah um and you know i'll be honest in the beginning when I read the script it was interesting because I noticed

in regards to the obvious choices that you could take in discussing race wasn't in the script and it was something that I was grappling with and I talked to the director about and he made a very interesting note, Alexander Payne, he said

the moment you are on that screen, instantly, all those things are there. understanding that he quite literally is the same age as these kids or as at least Tully in this situation maybe one year older than him and that that kid who's going through all these different things Angus who in no way would have been ready to go to war that her son had to deal with death alone and by himself, probably because of, you know, due to not only his social class and economic misfortunes, but because of the colour of his skin, and he was probably on the front line. And that's heavy. That's really heavy.

She carries a lot, this character, in the film and works as the head cook. She does a lot of caring and a lot of giving. And I know you said that she speaks for a lot of women and women you have in your life. For sure. I think women have this innate superpower that we are able to juggle so many things. It's beyond just multitasking, caring for others, having an awareness of others, both emotionally. Like when you think of a mother and multiple children, a good mother, quote unquote, loves all her children equally. And to do that, can you imagine how you would have to section off and compartmentalize your love, your care, your awareness? It's intense. It's a lot. And it's tiresome.

And women do it without pause all the time and oftentimes put their own feelings on the back burner because of it in this situation I think she of course does this but at the same time I think that in her nurturing and caring and investment in these other two gentlemen what is so beautiful is that you're seeing that she's starting to heal and in effect do the work, what is really quite powerful, which I think is a global message, a bigger message. And I love that it is two or three broken people that are able to come together to help heal and share and talk and converse with one another. Ultimately to realize that, in fact, they're all on a very similar path, though they all are different generations, genders, races, and social status.

Unlikely friendships are one of my favorite things. And seeing them on the screen in this film is something that you feel very touched by. Yes, and I love that in this movie. We really take the time. Something that bothers me is I don't like when movies, it's like the meet cute, even for friendships. And then like two seconds later, they're friends.

I love that we take the time it's earned that you see these friendships slowly molding and growing. Yes. And also that you wouldn't necessarily put them together. And it has a big impact on it. Is it true you cooked the food in the film? Yeah, so I knew in reading the script. You thought you might add that into the load. Yes, exactly. I knew when reading the script, though,

that you were going to see every detail. And so that's why the cooking, my character smokes, I don't smoke. This very unique and very specific dialect that I don't naturally possess. I knew upon reading it that it just felt so heightened and sensitive and intimate, this scripted. And so I knew instinctually that I needed to know how to do these things. Because if not, then it would have come off arbitrary or potentially false. And I didn't want that at all. And so I also love cooking. And I think if I didn't do this, this would definitely

be one of the jobs that I would probably end up becoming uh and so it was also good fun for me uh but i was uh happy and pleased that the director was on board and we decided what the christmas meal was going to be and then uh even when we filmed it we did not um eat that day and so when we waited until the actual scene in the movie. And so we actually ate to completion. Like they said cut and we were still eating. Right. And that was our dinner for that night.

It was so special. You don't normally do things like that. You know, it's usually like spit takes or stuff like that. Or just quickly eat a little piece and go. But we actually sat down and actually had the meal which was so special i'm feeling it's good if you like yeah it wasn't too bad wasn't too bad your uncle's potentially to win an oscar now okay yeah how are we feeling about that can we go near that subject i mean sure we can it's it's it's trepidatious for me i mean what i do i do it

for reasons other than this but i'm grateful yeah that um there is talk of such because it will hopefully open up um and create more opportunities for me. And for that, I'm excited for. I'm really invested in looking into creating a solid career and a legacy for myself. As an actor, you know, you're living job to job in many cases. Or you could be on top one moment and then the next moment, it's not. So if anything, I would love to use this opportunity of exposure to create stability, but also quality that having had this experience, I'm spoiled to be quite honest. And I really want to work

at this level and all the future projects that i do well i wish you the best of luck thank you so much i really appreciate it because you also talked about and it was interesting talking with jody about being on stage or being on film that that's your your background and and is it right opera yeah i'm a classically trained opera singer is that something you want to do more of in the future you know i yeah i want to um i want to figure out a way in which to bridge those two art forms together. The most obvious thing that has come to mind as of late is to do like a biopic or biopic for, let's say, an opera singer, where I can both be acting and, you know, portraying this character. I love transforming into characters. So I like to pick things that are, if I'm playing one certain type of person, the next job, to be sure, is going to be completely different. It helps me because I'm a trained actor. It's a way of me keeping my training intact or

keeping the tools sharp if you will so I think that could be a really fun and great challenge for myself to be able to dive in and not only transform into becoming an actual person if that were the case but then also to use that additional uh skill that have. And Leontine Price? Oh! You would like to play the opera singer? I think, yeah. I think why not? We're just making our dream roles here today.

Yeah. I was saying she should go on a TV show called Strictly Come Dancing and with you we're casting a biopic here, so it's good. Yeah, I think that would be fun. Yeah. It would be amazing to see you in that role.

Thank you. All the best for the Oscars and what they may mean, even though it's trepidatious. But good luck for that. I should say that the film that we're talking about, The Holdovers, goes on general release tomorrow. And it's been a real pleasure to talk to you this morning. Thanks for coming to Women's Hour, Davy and Joy Randolph,

fresh from winning Best Supporting Actress in a Motion Picture, as we saw at the Golden Globe Awards. A little bit more acting royalty tomorrow here on Women's Hour. Join Anita to hear from Vicky McClure. And that's all I've got time for today. Thank you so much, as always, for your company. A lot of ground covered and lots of messages from you. We'll be back with you tomorrow at 10. That's all for today's Women's Hour. Thank you so much for your time. Join us again for the next one.

I'm John Ronson and I'm back with season two of Things Fell Apart, a show for BBC Radio 4 that unearths the origin stories of the culture wars. This time around, the stories are all about the battlefronts that engulfed us during lockdown. The stories twist and turn until each one ends with the explosion of a new, far-reaching culture war. If you tell me that my nephew had superhuman strength, if you tell me that he didn't feel any pain, well, he's dead now. That's Things Fell Apart, Season 2. Listen on BBC Sounds. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this?

What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.