Woman's Hour - Joeli Brearley, US elections and women, Ballon d'Or Feminin winners

Episode Date: October 29, 2024

Sacked from her job by voicemail the day after she informed her employer she was pregnant Joeli Brearley set up Pregnant Then Screwed to end pregnancy and maternity discrimination. The charity has helped to influence new flexible working and redundancy protection laws, providing advice to hundreds of thousands of women when they face discrimination and challenging employers and government in high profile cases. After ten years Joeli is stepping down as CEO. She joins Nuala McGovern in the Woman's Hour studio.The United States goes to the polls one week today and presidential candidates are campaigning furiously, with the two frontrunners being the Democratic nominee and current Vice President, Kamala Harris and the Republican nominee and former President, Donald Trump. As a programme, we’re taking a look at whether there’s such a thing as the ‘the woman’s vote'. How are different groups of women likely to vote and why? Nuala speaks to Kathy Frankovic, Consultant to YouGov America and former director of surveys for CBS News and Debbie Walsh, Director of the Centre for Women and American Politics at Rutgers University.Last night’s 2024 Ballon d’Or Awards in Paris saw the Ballon d’Or Feminin award go to Aitana Bonmati for the second year in a row, and former Chelsea coach Emma Hayes win Women’s Coach of the Year. We hear from BBC Women’s Football reporter Emma Sanders for a round-up. Rae Mainwaring was only 23 when she was diagnosed with multiple sclerosis. Since then she's gone on to be a successful writer and theatre maker, and a mother of two children, and now her play Bright Places, about growing up in the shadow of a chronic illness is being staged at the Birmingham Repertory Theatre. She joins us in the Woman's Hour studio. Presenter: Nuala McGovern Producer: Kirsty Starkey

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2. And of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme. Peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, this is Nuala McGovern and you're listening to the Woman's Hour podcast. Hello and welcome to the programme. Well, how women vote in the United States, that's coming up in a moment. Also today, Jolie Brearley, who is stepping down as the CEO of Pregnant Then Screwed. Ten years ago, her ambition with the charity was to end what she calls the motherhood penalty. So how would she assess that goal now?

I'll also ask Jolie about how she sees new figures that are out that show the fertility rate in England and Wales has dropped to a new low, with women having 1.44 children. That's between 2022 and 2023. They are the lowest since records started back in 1938. And the average age of new mums

is 30.9. I'm also wondering how do you understand that? Finances? Partner? Climate change? Choosing a child-free life? Do you see yourself in those figures?

Or maybe it's something your daughter or your sister is figuring out. Well, you can text the programme. The number is 84844. On social media, we're at BBC Women's Hour. Or you can email us through our website. For WhatsApp, that message or voice note, the number is 03700 100 444. Ray Manoring is also with us.

She discovered she had multiple sclerosis or MS at the age of 23. She's written a play about it. It's called Bright Places and really has raw honesty about what that diagnosis has meant. So we'll speak to her. Plus, the Women's Ballon d'Or Awards. We're going to hear about the winners. But as you may know, it is just one week until Election Day in the United

States presidential election. The latest Ferrari in what has been a rollercoaster of campaigns has centered on Tony Hinchcliffe. He's a comedian with a history of racist jokes. He derided Puerto Rico as a floating island of garbage.

And he did it opening for Republican candidate Donald Trump at a rally in Madison Square Garden. Now, many are questioning today whether it will impact the votes of the hundreds of thousands of Puerto Ricans who live in the United States, or indeed whether it will impact the Latino vote. The former president has distanced himself from the remark, but his opponent, the Democrat Vice President Kamala Harris, has said it is a sign that Trump divides America. The Latino vote is a very important one. Obviously, not a monolith.

Neither is the woman's vote. But there is a gender gap when it comes to the candidates, with some analysing Trump versus Harris as the men versus women election. I spoke to Cathy Frankovic. She is consultant to YouGov America and former director of surveys at CBS News. And Debbie Walsh, director of the Center for Women and American Politics at Rutgers University. That's in New Jersey. And I began by asking Debbie if there's always been a political gender gap.

We've seen this gender gap since 1980. It's buried in its size. And this year, some of the most recent polling we're seeing from YouGov is showing about a 10 point gender gap, which is not the largest gap we've ever seen. And I just want to be clear, when we talk about the gender gap, we're talking about the difference in the way men and women vote. So we're comparing the support one candidate has between men and women. So some of the most recent polling I'm seeing is with Harris coming in at 55% among women, 45% among men. But what's important to remember also, combined with this difference in the way men and women vote is the fact that women outvote men. In the last number of presidential cycles, we have seen

about 10 million more women voting than men. So the potential there could be significant in the outcome of an election. And also to remember that women are not monolithic. There is tremendous variation among women by demographics. So coming to you, Cathy, what do you think is under that gender gap? What is dividing the men and women? in national polling data. That was the election between Jimmy Carter and Ronald Reagan, which Ronald Reagan won. And women were far more likely to think of him as someone who might get the United States into a war. And that seemed to be moving women away from voting for him. This election is a little different. I mean, previously, early on, it didn't have anything to do with women's rights or didn't seem to have anything to do with women's rights. And now, of course, with the issue of abortion on the table and the role of women, that seems to be affecting people. But this has been a long journey. And what we see now is women are actually shifting parties.

They are more likely to call themselves Democrats than Republicans. The men's side, it is a little bit different. There is much more evenness in people thinking themselves Democrats or Republicans. So a party shift has taken place, as well as the voting shift. Debbie's correct. The polling now is sort of interesting to people because of the fact that a majority of women are voting one way and a majority of men are voting the other way. Most of this action, however, is happening not among men and women Democrats or men and women Republicans. You know, 90 plus percent of them are voting for their party's nominee, but is happening among those who don't commit to a party, who call themselves political independents.

There's a rather sizable difference between men and women in how they vote. And that's causing a lot of the gender differences we're seeing overall in the country. And of course, there are questions about exactly how that might play out. There are seven swing states in particular, where people which could go Democrat or Republican, and people trying to figure out how the independents in those particular states will vote. But are there really, Debbie, I'll start with you, that many women who are independent who haven't decided on their vote yet? Well, this mystery of undecided voters, and Cathy can speak to this far better than I can, but we do know that women have in the past been likely to be more of those sort of late deciders.

I'm not sure that is the case. But I think that it's important to remember that among these women, the kinds of issues that are driving their vote is still the economy. It is also abortion has risen in its saliency to women voters. And that issue is playing a powerful role in what will motivate and energize people to actually show up and vote. I mean, I think that's also an important part. Some of these low information voters also don't show up and vote. Low information? People who are not paying as much attention to the election, who may in fact be some of these undecideds, they're also not really as likely to show up and vote on election

day unless there's some issue that's highly motivating them. Interesting. Your thoughts on that, Kathy? This is also an election. And let me say something about some of the subgroups of women which are worth looking at. There are differences between married and single people, be they male or female. It's the single people who are more supportive of Kamala Harris. In the

case of women, it's almost two to one. I think that we've always seen a marriage difference. People who are married tend to be more Republican than people who are not married. And not married would include divorced people as well as single people. And people with children tend to be more Republican than people who do not have children in the household, children who are under the age of 18. So there's a lot of things playing there. We also know that women tend to say they're more religious than men to go to church services or synagogue services more often. And those people who are extremely religious, at least among white Americans, tend to favor the

Republicans. So there's a lot of stuff going on underneath that big gender difference that we see and that we're talking about. Although I have seen with younger potential voters, that religious shift, some are saying has split of men being more religious than women just in that younger demographic and also a political divide where they're seeing it more stark in younger voters as well when it comes to that gender. I'd be curious for your thoughts on that. I would be very careful in making generalizations about that until we get to Election Day, in part because younger adults are the hardest to reach when it comes to public opinion polls. So those that do participate may be different from overall. There is one strong theme, though, when it comes to men and women.

And I suppose this really goes over the past few decades as things have changed, Debbie. And that is education and a difference that you can see there because women are becoming more educated than men in certain circles. And one of the differences that we've been seeing is sort of this question about the white women's vote, right? White women went majority for Trump last both times. But one of the differences that we see is within education. So women with a college degree, with a college education, are more likely to support the Democratic candidate now. And it's women without a college degree that are part of that Trump base. And so this is some of these women had been, as Kathy has pointed out in

the past, they have been Republican voters, but they find Trump maybe a bridge too far. They might well have voted for him in 16. He was the Republican and they're Republicans and the party is the clearest predictor of a vote. But then we have seen a shift among those women. We saw it in 2018 with a kind of mobilization of women, where women sort of felt, really saw that elections have consequences in their lives. And then the Dobbs decision really drives that home. Which is about abortion legislation and the overturning of Roe v. Wade. Right, the reversal of the Roe decision.

And so we're seeing women who might have been Republican voters in the past shifting. And that is the vote that I think everyone is watching to see what will they do? What will those college educated white women do? They've been dubbed suburban women, but they're not just in the suburbs. What will they do come election day? And will this sort of shift that we've been seeing and their political activation continue in this election cycle? Do you see it when it comes to female candidates? You talk about the consequences of elections on parties getting women to stand, for example, for Congress

or the Senate, as well as, of course, this presidential election? After the 2016 election, we saw record numbers of women running. We saw the largest incoming class of women in the US House, 36 new women were elected. And then in addition, we had the incumbents who won reelection. Of those 36 new women, 35 of them were Democrats. This was overwhelmingly on the Democratic side. There was a little bit of a bounce back for the Republicans in the following cycle. But what we have seen this cycle is a slight drop in the number of women running for Congress. But it has all been on the Republican side. The

Democratic women are again a slight increase, but the Republican women are down. So we have an overall negative on women candidates for Congress this cycle. Cathy, let me throw one to you. Do you think voters, when they go into the ballot box, and of course, not a generalisation, but just your thoughts on this, whether the voter cares that the person on the ballot is a man or a woman? I think it's a very open question. Yes, you will find women wanting a woman to be running, wanting a woman to be elected, certainly more so than men. But there is still some concern among the public, and we've asked this, whether they think America is ready for a woman president. Answers people give seem to be motivated by,

in part, by who's running. Is it a Republican or a Democrat? And it's mostly a Democrat, twice for president now, and also seems to be, you know, hopeful for whatever party leaning you have. So I think there's concern. There is concern among a lot of women that America is not ready to elect a woman president, that while there may be all these people who have been elected to lower offices like Congress, like Senate, that glass ceiling that Hillary Clinton talked about is functionally could still be there for many voters. Debbie, your thoughts? Well, I would say that America, the majority of Americans did vote for a woman for president in 2016. They just didn't live in the right state. So let me electoral college system. Yeah, let me just describe that

very quickly. The popular vote, Hillary Clinton won that, but that is not the way the system works. It works instead with the Electoral College, of which the person who wins 270 of the 538 electoral votes is the winner. And that was, that time, Donald Trump. Right. And I do think it's also to remember that this position, president of the United States, is the most powerful male position associated with men and masculinity in the world, and largely with the exception of Barack Obama, white men. And so Kamala Harris and any woman running for president is disrupting this most traditional view of who can lead at

this absolute highest level, which is why I think in some senses, the way you are seeing her run her campaign, particularly because it is a general election campaign, she has not been leaning into her race and her gender and those identities. However, that is not to say she's run away from it. She has a long history of prioritizing issues around race and gender, but she is doing the job she needs to do to speak to Americans who need to believe and trust that a woman can lead at this highest level. So you saw it from the very beginning when she stepped out on that stage at the Democratic National Convention. She did not wear white in honor of the suffragists. She wore a conservative dark suit. And she got up there

and she talked about things like America having the most lethal military force in the world. I mean, she is talking strength and toughness and leaning into her role in law enforcement as the chief law enforcement officer of California, as a district attorney, as a prosecutor. So she is really doing her best to disrupt that notion and those stereotypes that we have about who can lead at the presidential level.

Debbie Walsh there from the Centre for Women and American Politics at Rutgers University, also Cathy Frankovic, consultant to YouGov America and former director of surveys at CBS News. Tomorrow, we'll get into how the candidates have been campaigning to appeal to women. And I also want to let you know that next week I'll be in D.C. presenting on Radio 4 as the results come in overnight. I'm presenting Women's Hour on Thursday the 7th of November. Will the U.S. have a president elect by then? Well, it is still

very hard to know at this point. Now, nearly 10 years ago, Jolie Brearley was sacked from her job by voicemail the day after she informed her employer she was pregnant. That experience led to her forming Pregnant Then Screwed, an organisation which campaigns to end

pregnancy and maternity discrimination. Some of you might remember the March of the Mummies in 2022, which saw thousands of families marching across the UK for better investment in childcare. Well, Pregnant Then Screwed has provided advice to hundreds of thousands of women when they face discrimination and challenging employers and government

in high profile cases. And they also helped introduce new flexible working and redundancy protection laws. Recently, Jolie announced that she is stepping down as CEO and she joins me now. How are you, Jolie? How are you feeling about this big decision? Well, I mean, I'm feeling terrified and elated.

It's all of the emotions all at once and obviously now full of cold because I've announced that I'm stepping down and it's all been quite intense over the last few days. But, you know, I'm excited for the future of Pregnant There's Greed and I'm excited for my future too. Shall we reminisce for a moment? Take us back to that experience which led to the founding of Pregnant Then Screwed.

So as you mentioned just over a decade ago I told my employer that I was pregnant and the following day she sacked me by voicemail and she was the CEO of a children's charity. I had no support, I had no access to legal aid, I had very little understanding of my legal rights and it was honestly one of the most terrifying and lonely experiences of my entire life and you know now if that happens to any other woman and we know that it happens to 54,000 women a year, then they can call Pregnant Then Screwed and they can access emotional support and they can access free legal advice from our brilliant volunteers. And we also know that people now have a better awareness of the many unnecessary and systemic barriers that women encounter when trying to have children in a career, what we call the motherhood penalty. So we're talking about a lack of flexible working, a completely antiquated

parental leave system, unaffordable childcare, and the fact that so many women either get pushed out of their jobs or demoted for daring to procreate. As you talk about that as well, I suppose I should tell people that Pregnant Then Screwed will continue. It is just you stepping down as CEO. Yes, absolutely. It will continue. We're recruiting a new CEO in the next couple of months. What do you think they should know about the job? What's the most challenging thing? Look, I mean, over the last 10 years, hand on heart, I can say we've done a really great job. The job itself is wonderful in so many ways but if I was to say what I would have done differently I would have done more to protect my

own mental health and myself I succumbed to what a great number of activists succumbed to which was the in the trying to achieve the goal that drove me, which of course is women's equality, I struggled to have any downtime. I was so passionate about it. I cared about it so much. And knowing that I had set up an organisation that could make the experience less severe for another woman who was going through what I went through, meant that I just constantly felt like I had to work. And, you know, the irony being that I was trying to create a society in which people could care for their children and have great careers. And yet I failed to do that for myself. So there were times where I was putting my kids to bed

and I was sending emails or sending messages or they were telling me stories. And I just wasn't there I wasn't present and you know I'm very lucky that I have a supportive family you cannot do this job without a supportive family but what I would say to the next CEO is be boundaried protect your mental health as much as you can because I made myself very unwell and at points and that's no good for the for the fight and it's no good for you it is ironic isn't it you working for better working conditions for mothers and seeing yourself being put through that in that fight as well um the best moment as you look back oh well the best moment has got to be march of the mormies the protest we organized in 2022 standing on a red bus, looking out across Parliament Square to 10,000 parents chanting and singing for better childcare and parental leave.

Babes in arms, hopes, hopes sketched on their faces. I will genuinely remember that moment until the day I die. I was mentioning to our listeners, you know, this morning that the fertility rate in England and Wales has dropped to the lowest rate on record, women in England and Wales had an average of 1.44 children between 2022 and 2023. And the average age of a new mum being 30.9. I am asking listeners for their thoughts on that. I want your thoughts on that, but I want to read you a comment that came in. I am 34 and I just had my first child. My workplace made me redundant the same week I gave birth and statutory maternity pay is so low. I'm returning to work at nine months and facing nursery fees of over a thousand pound a month. So even with

the funding and tax relief scheme, we have survived on my savings. They're nearly gone. We just won't be able to afford a second child. What are your thoughts on some of those figures and that little story that I told you too? I mean, look, I honestly wonder why anybody would want to have a child at the moment in the UK. Everything is in flux.

It's in chaos. Maternity services are a mess. We have a completely outdated parental leave system, which pushes the joy, but also the burden onto women and then pays them an absolutely measly amount to do the most important job in the world. We have little access to flexible working. We have a completely unaffordable, inaccessible childcare system. Housing costs are through the roof. And we know that when you ask women why they're not having children, they say it's because of either job security, because of

the cost or because they can't find somebody to love. Those first two things we can solve. And yet we've seen very little response from this government, very little action from this government. We do not value parenting or care in this country. And until we do, we will continue to see that birth rate go in decline. But let's talk about that then, because, you know, you're 10 years down the path. And you point to, for example, the march that raised awareness in that way. What would be the one point, if you were sitting opposite the government now instead of me that you feel needs to be worked on immediately? We need six weeks paternity leave

paid at 90% of salary. We did some research with the Centre for Progressive Policy and found that if you do that, you decrease the gender pay gap by 4%. so that is a game changer in terms of giving women access to the workplace and improving women's equality but also dads really want to spend time with their kids why on earth have we only got two weeks paternity leave that's the first thing i do the second thing i do is that we need a child care system that works and it currently still isn't working despite the fact that we help secure 5.2 billion pounds of investment the whole system needs scrapping and starting again it's a mess is that one of your bigger regrets that that hasn't been resolved uh more in the past 10 years yeah it is although we have seen commitment from the new government to do an investigation into parental leave so we're hoping

that with the right pressure that they will do the right thing and improve paternity leave. And we have seen a commitment that they will do more on the childcare system. We just haven't seen what that means in reality. The employment bill, it will be a radical step in the right direction, but only if the detail is there,

otherwise it could end up being all fur coat and no knickers. So right now now what we need is organizations putting pressure on the government to get that detail just right and things will change for the better are you going to be able to step back i um that's a really good question i look i mean running women's organizations right now is really challenging you have to be the calm at the center of what is often extreme distress. You have everybody relying on you, your team, trustees, funders, the media, politicians. And the pressure is immense.

And also there are huge issues with funding. Less than 2% of funding goes to the women and girls sector. And even when you secure that funding they want something new and shiny a new project or a new organization when actually what we need is funding for this to do the same thing over and over again for however long it takes but the UK funding system just doesn't work like that and that stuff is really difficult but I this stuff runs through my veins it's part of my DNA I care care about this deeply. And so no, I will not stop talking about it. I want to go into more companies and talk to them about the

motherhood penalty and what they can do to better support women and do more projects using the skills that I've learned in advocacy and change. But, you know, Pregnant and Screwed now needs new ideas, new energy levels and new perspectives to take on this monumental task. And that's why I'm stepping down to let a new CEO take over. What do you feel has changed? You talk about times changing. What is it right now that feels different? What feels different from what we have done is that you can now get the support that you so desperately need I couldn't get that when it happened to me I was completely alone but I do and I do think there's more awareness we're talking more about child care it is now top of

the government's agenda when I started talking about this five years ago they would look at me like I had two chocolate fingers stuck up my nose you know it was like I was of no interest at all to anybody so these these issues are on the agenda when they weren't previously and that is that's a massive sea change but it's taken 10 years to get there it's going to take you know another 10 20 years to actually see the changes that we need. What about changing language in the area for example we've heard discussions about terms like pregnant people um has that impacted your work how do you feel about it yeah look i mean if any any woman that runs a women's organization tells you this isn't a problem then they're lying it's

a real challenge within women's organizations whether you use sex-based language or whether you use gender identity language you know in other areas um when you're talking about policy or decisions there is room for disagreement but there isn't on this disagreement is framed as as you being a bigot and yet in every women's organization there is this disagreement and so what tends to happen is women are too scared to talk about it and leaders are too scared to talk about it because they know the online abuse is going to be absolutely extreme and they know that internally there are going to be huge huge challenges you're going to open a pandora's box and so many tend to repress it and try and not talk about it but that can cause a rot within a small organisation so it is a really it is a really big challenge for women and girls organisations right now.

What is the challenge that the time it takes to discuss the approach that you're going to take? No the challenge is that there are very different opinions within every organisation but there isn't room for disagreement within those organisations. Do you feel that impacted your work? I'm just thinking of the amount of time you have with the amount of tasks, as you've outlined, that you've been trying to achieve. It has absolutely impacted our work and it has impacted every charity working in the women and girls sector. Has it played into you stepping down? No, no it hasn't. It is a big challenge and I have struggled with it a lot over the past few years but no my decision is separate from that. We've spoken some about what the organisation has achieved and also how difficult it has been as we talk about um you leaving this incredibly um influential role

over the past 10 years one was i love this nina cherry who we had on the program there just the other week the singer songwriter i believe she was young she was important to you when you were young why was that oh I loved Naina Cherry so much when I was younger and I vividly remember the moment that she bounced onto top of the pops with high top trainers on the big medallion singing buffalo stance while seven months pregnant I can still do the buffalo stance rap now but I won't do it live on air that's a shame she you know that moment I remember it vividly and it clearly had an impact on me she was very subtly I mean well not so subtly saying

that you can have children in a career um and you know clearly that stayed with me because I went on to set up Pregnant No Screwed when I got pushed out of my job for getting pregnant but there are two women that I really would like to take a moment to say a big thank you to and that is the Labour MP Stella Creasy and the founder leader of the Women's Equality Party Sophie Walker. Both of them have been there for me since the beginning and they both of course understand what it's like to put your head above the parapet to have online abuse to campaign relentlessly and feel like you're not getting anywhere and they both put a big warm coat around me from the beginning and without them I don't think I would be where I am now and one

other person if I may Danielle Ayres who is an employment lawyer from Primus Law I randomly met Danielle in Manchester 10 years ago when Pregnant Then Screwed wasn't even an organisation. It was held together by Sellotape and String. And I asked her to help me set up a free legal advice line. She agreed and she was doing two phone calls a night from the bath at the time because we were so cute. And she's still involved 10 years later

running that advice line that has now helped 300,000 women. She's obviously not doing it from the bath anymore because she'd be very wrinkly. But without her, Pregnant Then Screwed just wouldn't exist. And then, of course, all of the volunteers. One of the challenges we have never had as an organisation is finding women who will give their time and their skills for free to help other women. And these are women who don't have much. They don't have much time. They don't have much money. And yet they care so deeply about supporting other women.

And the sisterhood is real. That's quite a legacy to have, Jolie. And Women's Equality Party, of course, we spoke about them yesterday on the programme because the leadership is calling for a vote to close it down next month. So in a way, I suppose your paths aligning yet again, perhaps. Thank you so much for speaking to us, Jolie Brearley, who has been for 10 years, the CEO of Pregnant Then Screwed, but is stepping down. But Pregnant Then Screwed continues continues what are you going to do what's your plans for the next few months i mean honestly i don't really know uh but i do want to do more talking about the motherhood penalty and i want to do more projects but also

i'm launching a brilliant podcast with a friend of mine called elliot ray on raising boys and to be a boy i have two boys still haven't figured out how to raise them. And they are eight and ten. So it's a bit late in the day for me. But I think trying to understand better why boys are veering towards misogyny and why they are veering towards the hard right and what is going on with boys is a big thing we now need to understand if we want women's equality. Yes, indeed. Conversation we've had many times on Women want women's equality. Yes, indeed. A conversation we've had many times on Women's Hour and will continue to do so. Maybe we'll speak to you again in another

Guise. Jolie Brearley, thank you so much for speaking to us and best of luck with your work ahead. I'm Sarah Treleaven and for over a year I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy.

And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now. Lots of you getting in touch. Let me read a couple of the messages talking about the low fertility rate.

Women who get pregnant do so at the expense of us who don't. I have to subsidise their maternity leave, their child care, child benefit, free fares, free school meals, etc. When I was employed, I had to cover two pregnant women's jobs for less than what one of them was paid. I was always the last to be able to choose holidays because women with children always got priority. My lifestyle choice is certainly not privileged. Why should theirs be?

OK, that is from Charlotte. Here is another one. I'm 33. I dearly love to have a child, but I'm frightened due to lack of job security, cost of living. The older I get, the riskier it gets, and I worry it may never happen. One more.

It is no surprise that the fertility rate is falling to record levels. Motherhood is not recognised as something to strive towards. I've heard from the lady from Pregnant Then Screwed that say parenting or care is not valued why should there be only one option child care by a third party lynn from mothers at home matter a charity that campaigns for more support for stay-at-home mums and carers 84844 if you would like to get in touch now if you weren't listening yesterday you will have missed our moving and also

thoughtful interview with anna maxwell mart. I know so many of you have responded to it on our social media. You might know Anna from Motherland or perhaps Line of Duty. She's also currently starring in Ludwig on the BBC. The full interview is available now on BBC Sounds if you'd like to catch up with it.

Well, we spoke about many things including her new role in the true crime drama Until I Kill You. Also, her personal experience battling the SEND school system on behalf of her two daughters. But we also spoke about grief. Anna lost her father when she was just 24 years of age. And three years ago, her husband, the director Roger Michel, died suddenly. She told me about how she is still experiencing that grief.

My husband died three years ago and things were really difficult in every aspect of our lives and one of those was that there's lots of stuff that comes with grief and one of them is financial terror. And then there are real practicalities around your children and their mental health and supporting them, which is your priority. Looking back, I was probably in a state of shock and fear and a sort of heightened state for a long time, actually until very recently. You know, I've trod this road before of grief and sudden traumatic death. I've done it before.

And so in a way, I could pick myself up and do it again. It was horrible to have to see my children walk that road. But I'm pretty gritty. I'm pretty strong. And I think I'm quite deft, I hope, at navigating life. And I thought I've just got to keep the motor chugging on. You said this is not the first time that you experienced grief that came after a traumatic event. Yeah. And somebody told me about grief before that sometimes that second time you feel it you're like oh god I remember this you know and that there's almost a muscle memory that's there in what you have to do. Yeah.

When it happened to me when I was 24, I was very lonely. I was very isolated because no one had been through what I'd been through. I didn't know those people. Yes. didn't know those people yes and then when it happened with roge i saw it more as we've all got to keep it together for the kids i also think there's something about being a woman in your 40s and by then if you're lucky enough you will have succeeded in having the best friends and best people around you you'll have stopped making mistakes in that area of your life, and I really did.

I had exceptional friends, an exceptional support network. The actor Anna Maxwell-Martin speaking to me there. You can hear the full interview on BBC Sounds. It's the Woman's Hour episode for the 28th of October. Last night was the prestigious Ballon d'Or Awards in Paris. The accolades given constitute some of the highest honours in football and Spain and Barcelona midfielder

Aitana Bonmaty won the Women's Ballon d'Or or the Ballon d'Or Féminine awarded to the best female footballer in the world. Emma Hayes, former Chelsea coach, now coach for the US women's team was named the first women's coach of the year. Here's what she had to say upon receiving the award.

Very honoured to be awarded the first Ballon d'Or for a coach of the women's game. I'm very proud, my family are very proud to be in this position. I feel a little bit embarrassed because I'm in a team game in both Chelsea and USA. I've been so, so honoured to coach such incredible people. I feel a little bit embarrassed because I'm in a team game in both Chelsea and USA. I've been so, so honoured to coach such incredible people. Emma Hayes there at the Ballon d'Or Awards. And she talked about that inaugural Coach of the Year for Women Award. Well, joining me is the BBC senior women's football reporter, Emma Sanders.

Welcome, Emma. Good morning. Nice to speak to you. So how were the awards? How important are they? I mean, we've often heard of them, but generally in the context of men. Yeah, well, that's exactly it. Recognising the success of female footballers and putting them on a stage that, as you say, is so widely celebrating the men's game, I think is hugely important. It's about finding that parity and respect, isn't it? Which the women's game doesn't always get. I still think there's a long way to go. There was no Women's Goalkeeper of the Year award, for example.

And as you mentioned there at the top, it was the first time there was a Women's Coach of the Year award. So, you know, there's still a long way to go. And the awards night also fell during an international window. I'm currently in Coventry preparing to report on the Lionesses match tonight. So a lot of players from England and from the USA who were nominated were not able to actually go and celebrate their achievements. Oh, that is such a shame. What about, though, creating the Women's Coach of the Year? What difference do you think that will make?

Yeah, I think it will make a big difference because just being able to say, look, there's a lot of females in these positions of importance in football and just making it the norm, really, to see female coaches at the top level, at the elite level of football, whether that be men's or the women's game, I do think is really important. So, yeah, celebrating that success is one way in doing that. And, yeah, really shining a spotlight.

But shall we move on to Bonmetti? There's only been a Ballon d'Or for women for six years, as I understand it. But she's already won it twice. Tell me about her. Yeah, she's just a phenomenal footballer. She won every possible trophy at club level last season with Barcelona. And she also helped Spain win the Women's Nations League for the first time she was the player of the tournament in the Women's Champions League she scored in the final

she also scored in the final for Spain in the Nations League so she pops up at all of the biggest moments and yeah just a truly phenomenal footballer and obviously this award is recognition of that having kept those high standards for two years now. Were there any England women footballers on the list? There was Chelsea forward Lauren James who was a standout player at the World Cup last year she finished 13th and the highest placed lioness in there and Lucy Bronze the England fullback as well 20th for her achievements in that Barcelona team alongside Aitana Bomati and then Lauren Hemp the third one who is such a rising star for England, fantastic form at the moment for Manchester City. She finished 28th.

It's so interesting because as you talk about them and obviously all these sporting achievements, but when you say those names, I'm also thinking of them as ambassadors, whether it's the England women or indeed Bonmati. Do you have to be an ambassador to also claim the top prize? You don't have to be, but it certainly helps, doesn't it? And I think that's where Bon Mati really has shown her level,

not just on the pitch, but off it. She's got such strong leadership skills and she's just an incredible ambassador for the game. She's always very honest. I've been very lucky to meet her quite a few times now. I've sat down and done a couple of exclusive interviews with her. She's so intelligent. She's worked really hard on improving her English as well so that she can speak to more people and talk about the game and just reach more and more fans of the men's game as well as the women's game. So, yeah, very important to have ambassadors like her within

the game and obviously achieving these highest levels of individual accolades. Well, one of her teammates was also singled out. That's Jennifer Hermosa, who was awarded the Socrates Award. Can you tell us a little about the recognition with that? Yeah, that award is really important. It celebrates the humanitarian work off the pitch. Now, Hermoso was at the forefront of Spain women's team's complaints against the former Spanish FA chief, Luis Rubiales. This was after they won that World Cup last year in the final as she went up to receive her medal. She was kissed by him and she later said that that was not consensual.

So she's been very outspoken against sexual harassment in the game more recently off the back of that and also just being an outspoken advocate for women's football generally so a very well deserving award for her. And how did they respond to that as she was awarded the Socrates Award? Yeah I think you know there was there was a standing ovation within the room a lot of people on social media were were obviously celebrating the fact that Hermoso was recognized for that and she spoke so well afterwards and and sort of pleaded with a lot of the men in the room if you like to to continue to celebrate the success of women and to continue

to strive for that equality and I think she used her platform very well on the night and you know there was still a long way to go and she knows that and and she was very much aware of that as she went up to receive her her award. You mentioned the Lionesses that you what you are following at the moment so they're facing South Africa in a friendly? Yes that's right yeah it comes off the back of a really disappointing defeat against Germany at Wembley on Friday. They lost 4-3. A fantastic match if you were a neutral fan.

But there has been some growing criticism of the Lionesses since reaching the World Cup final last year. Their form has dipped quite considerably. Why? I think they've got a lot of players who are in and out of form domestically they've got some players that are coming back from injury

and there hasn't really been much change up in the team so there's been some criticism of the manager Serena Wiegmann who's obviously been so successful but is now the time

where perhaps she needs to switch things up and evolve a lot of teams are starting to catch England up and they're preparing to defend their European crown of course

in Switzerland next summer so yeah lots of eyes on this game tonight, a team that they should be beating pretty comfortably so hopefully a much more positive evening So let us see what happens this evening, thanks Emma Sanders taking a bit of time out with us here, she is the BBC

Senior Women's Football Correspondent as we take a look at the Ballon d'Or awards for women. Right, some more messages coming in. This is an answer to Charlotte, says this messenger. I read the comment out a bit earlier saying, you know,

why is she subsidising mothers' benefits? I'm putting that in short language. But this is an answer to Charlotte who wondered in her message why she should contribute to the financial support which mothers get.

It's your pension. Without the younger generation, the government will not be able to pay for all of our pensioners. Your pension contributions won't be enough to enable you to make a living. Here's another.

I'm eight weeks pregnant, age 33, and my work are relatively supportive. Financial fear is growing by the week and we're waiting to find out if everything is OK with the pregnancy before indulging the panic and having to sit down with a spreadsheet and start making savings. I want to be happy, but I'm very anxious. Another, my friends and I are all in our late 20s.

Most live in house shares in London for career reasons. We don't see that this is the best environment to start a family. And so the plan is to wait until we can buy a house or move out of london that is all in response to the low fertility rate that you might have seen this morning in the paper has been picked up the figures the lowest since 1938 and women having 1.44 children between the years of 2022 and 2023 now Now to Ray Manoring, who was just 23 when she was diagnosed with MS, multiple sclerosis.

She said, it came into my life without warning, just when everything was going well and when I was really, really happy. So then she's gone on to be a successful writer, theatre maker and a mother of two children,

as we speak about motherhood this morning as well, Ray, about everything else. A new play, her play is Bright Places. It's about growing up in the shadow of that chronic illness. It's on at the moment at the Birmingham Repertory Theatre. And she joins me in the Woman's Hour studio. You're so welcome. Oh, thank you so much for having me.

You know, we've been reminiscing a little bit earlier with Jodie Brearley about 10 years ago when she took on the role of CEO of Pregnant Then Screwed or creating the charity. I'm wondering if we look back to you at 23 and getting that diagnosis. What do you remember of the time? It was such a huge shock. I hadn't really heard much about MS. I didn't really know what it was um and it just shook the foundations of of what I thought my life was going to be um and also I think there's something about

the shock of a diagnosis is it takes a really long time for that to sort of resonate it's a bit of a sort of drip drip drip um but yeah it was just such such a shock um such an overwhelming piece of news to to receive um and I chose not to research it very much to start with um yeah it was I found that really interesting and I was reading through the script of your play as well and that part I really landed on in that and I'm sure so many listeners this will resonate with them that they're given this big piece of hard news to put it very frankly and that you can only take so much in or want to even ask certain questions at a certain point and that it might take months or years

before you go back in to find out exactly what are you looking at? Yeah, absolutely. I vividly remember the moment that I got the diagnosis, but I was mostly sort of captivated by the fact that I could see my brain scan. And I just think that was my brain's way of protecting myself of kind of not really allowing myself to take in the news that I was hearing. Which brings me the title Bright Places. Yes so it Bright Places speaks to on the MRI scan when they are looking for signs of MS, it can show up as small white spots on your brain,

which are lesions, which are caused by MS. So it's partly that, and it's partly about how I coped with having this trauma in my life was to sort of hide in bright places, to want to, I think, put the shutters down on the stuff that was really difficult by wanting to lean towards the light. But leaning towards the light,

did you feel, though, at some point you had to go to the dark places? Absolutely, yeah. Which was one of the things that I wanted to go to the dark places absolutely yeah um which was one of the things that wanted to explore in the play um that part of that way of coping didn't necessarily completely work because eventually you do have to go there and you do have to um to sort of look at it and experience it's a three woman one one woman show. We have these three women that are playing you at different parts of your life. Yeah.

I wonder what it was like to relive that because obviously a lot of trauma and pain. But I mean, the parts that I was watching were very fun. You know, I could totally relate like the 90s rape, for example. And thinking, oh, you know, there's a young girl young girl you know having the time of her life but also with this thing on her shoulder it was initially when I first started writing Bright Places I was very um when did you start writing it so I started writing it originally the very first um bits that I wrote was 2018 okay so it's been going for a while. And then in 2019, I was part of an artist development scheme

at the Birmingham Rep. So over that year, I developed a full length version of Bright Places, which was meant to go on tour. And then we had a pandemic. And then all of the ripple effects that had on the arts and on funding, which brings us to where we

are now but I was quite naive about it and I was like well I felt all the feelings that I'm going to feel about having MS I'm going to be absolutely fine and of course it was actually quite difficult at times um I'm at a point now where less so because I've sort of been with the script for quite a long time. So I'm sort of able to be quite, you know, it's work. But there are moments because the cast are so good where they catch you out and you go, oh, OK, yeah, that got me. And what might that be? What moment do you remember? I think some of it's the softer moments it's the the more exposing moments the kind of the the bruises I suppose um those little tender moments that catch you out um

that yeah those are those are always a bit of a surprise I think and also because the cast are so um they're so brilliant they will bring something to it that i hadn't quite expected that and that will get you because you think oh okay yeah um yeah members of the creative team also have ms i understand um so you have i suppose that personal experience coming to it as well yeah and when i was watching a little of one of your dress rehearsals, you also have captioning in the theatre. Talk our listeners through that so they can visualise it on the radio. So creative captioning is, so often when you go to the theatre, there's normally maybe one night where there'll be captioning and it will be a small box in the corner of the stage. It's often

not particularly placed brilliantly and you have to choose between looking at what's happening on stage and the captioning. Creative captioning happens every single night and it is completely part of the storytelling. I almost think it's almost like it's alive, it's like it's its own character. So it's projected onto the back of the stage and it's characterful so the font

um will relate to the characters the colors the placement of it so and it's not just um for people who are hearing impaired um lots of different people really, really benefit from captioning. Neurodivergent audiences find it really helpful. I'm slightly hearing impaired and wouldn't have thought it was, but it totally helps me to be able to follow. And I also think that we are becoming more used to captioning. Definitely. You know, on the socials, it's all, everything's captioned. Young people tend to

watch television with subtitles. And those that are not so young. So it's really, and although it's quite a new thing and it has been,

you know, quite challenging to technically, I think it's a really important part of the way we're telling our story. I found it really interesting. I was watching your dress rehearsal

on a laptop and at times I turned the sound off to watch it that way and then I watching your dress rehearsal on a laptop and at times I turned the sound off to watch it that way and then I closed my eyes and listened to it at other times. It's a whole different experience but very beautiful. You write

this in an uplifting way as well I should say about MS because we've had I was also just thinking about the young athletes, Lina and Lavia. Nielsen, who both were diagnosed with MS. It's an incredible track and field. Olympians came in with their Olympic medals.

Two women's hour. But MS can be such a different thing for different people and for people that are getting a diagnosis now. And that are just so scared. Perhaps like that young Ray at the beginning of your theatre piece. What would you say? I would say that it is different for everybody. That's what's so unusual about MS is it's, they describe it as sometimes being like a snowflake. So it's completely individual to each person and also within your own lived experience of MS, it will change. When you're first diagnosed, you are in the eye of the storm and it's frightening

and you don't know what's coming. And it is a really scary time. But I do think if you can have, if you can lean on your support networks, there's a lot of brilliant charities that are there, Shift MS who are our partner charity find your community find your people and support and you'll find that there's that was something that was really lacking for me because I was diagnosed before social media it was incredibly isolating

there was no representation I didn't you know It's so interesting I see parallels there with Pregnant Then Screwed as well and we're talking about starting out and where it is now and we've also been talking about the fertility rate, but you have become a writer.

You are working in theatre. You've had two children as well. Were you worried about in our last minute or so having children and the impact it might have on your health? Yes, although I had read

there is research that sort of supports that sometimes actually it can be quite helpful because of what the immune system does while you're pregnant. And I did find that it plateaued a little bit, although it'd be hard sometimes to tell which fatigue was MS fatigue and which fatigue was small person related. But I did take a big break from work because of that,

because of having small children. But I don take a big break from work because of that, because of having small children. But I don't know. I think I just always knew that I wanted to do that. And I wanted to do theatre. I mean, there's a lot of things that I wanted to do. And it was how was I going to balance all these things? Do you feel in a more balanced place now? I do feel a bit more balanced. I would say it's a big old juggle like I'm sure it is for every single working mother out there but I'm really glad that I

went back to it late Here's one for you Rae For inspiration, my mother was diagnosed with MS in her late 30s and recently passed away at the age of 87 and managed to be on her feet up to two months before she died She had a full and joyful life I think that's a lovely message Rae Manoring, thank you so much to be on her feet up to two months before she died. Amazing. She had a full and joyful life.

I think that's a lovely message. Ray Manoring, thank you so much. Bright Places is on at the Birmingham Rep now until Saturday the 2nd of November and then on a UK tour till mid-December. Best of luck with it all. On tomorrow's programme, we will have more analysis of the upcoming

US presidential election. Yep, next Tuesday is election day in the States. Tomorrow we're looking at how the campaigns target men and women differently. So do join me tomorrow from 10am. And thank you so much for spending part of your morning with me here on Woman's Hour. I'll talk to you tomorrow. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, this is Danny. It's been too long, but I am back and I wanted to let you know about something very special that is going to be happening on the Uncanny Podcast feed this October. As we all know, this is the month of

Halloween, that most ghostly time of year. And to celebrate, I am going to be doing a Halloween advent calendar. Every single day during October, I will be dropping a brand new mini case into the Uncanny feed, each one under two minutes long, a tiny bite-sized nugget of terror, an email from a listener recounting an experience they believe may have been paranormal. But is it? There will also be video versions of the stories on all of my social media channels.

The episodes will land every single morning. 31 stories in all, leading all the way up to Halloween. And there might just be some special Halloween surprises to come too. So that is the uncanny Halloween advent calendar on BBC Sounds or wherever you get your podcasts. Join me if you dare. I'm Sarah Trelevan and for over a year I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody.

Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story. Settle in.

Available now.