Woman's Hour - Joss Stone, Maya Forstater

Episode Date: March 9, 2022

With worldwide sales in excess of 15 million albums, the Grammy award-winning singer-songwriter Joss Stone is without question among the most iconic soul singers of the modern era. She rose to fame at the age of 13 by winning a BBC talent competition and more recently won The Masked Singer. Joss has now reunited with legend Dave Stewart for her new album Never Forget My Love.In an exclusive interview in the week that her employment tribunal case continues, Maya Forstater speaks to Emma about losing her role at a company in 2019, after she had posted tweets and had conversations about sex and gender. She took her case to an employment tribunal on the basis that, amongst other claims, she had been discriminated against because of her belief – that biological sex is real, important, immutable and cannot be conflated with gender identity. Maya lost the preliminary hearing, on the basis that her beliefs were not protected under the Equality Act 2010, but she appealed and in June 2021 that decision was overturned. The ruling meant that gender critical beliefs are a protected philosophical belief under the Equality Act 2010. This week the next part of her employment tribunal starts, and it will decide whether her employer discriminated against her because of her belief. Presenter: Emma Barnett Producer: Lisa Jenkinson Studio Mangaer: Tim Heffer

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I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2. And of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts. BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts.

Hello, I'm Emma Barnett and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Good morning. Welcome to the programme. Shortly, you're going to hear from a Ukrainian MP who, like many of her colleagues, has been given a gun by her own government to protect herself. She's one of many women who are staying in Ukraine, some of whom say they've taken their children now to safety and are joining the men to enter the battle. Also on today's programme,

after an interview on yesterday's show with Annalise Dodds, the Labour MP and Shadow Women and Equalities Minister, attracted a lot of attention due to her answer about how her political party defines a woman. You can catch back up on that interview on BBC Sounds. Part of that attention included several tweets from the author J.K. Rowling. Today, you'll hear from a woman who thinks of Rowling as her fairy godmother. That woman is Maya Forstater, who's talking to me as she fights the next stage of her employment tribunal. You may remember Maya

lost her role at a company in 2019 after expressing beliefs about sex and gender, and then eventually won the first part of her case. In what's been described as a landmark ruling, the judge said in that rulement, or that judgment, I should say, that gender critical beliefs are a protected philosophical belief under the Equality Act. Music from Joss Stone will follow a woman who made her name at 16 and has just completed a world tour, as well as a stint on television dressed as a sausage. All to come here on Woman's Hour. So do stay with me and do stay with us as we go through the next hour together. Of course, anything you want to talk about, comment on or share any views or experiences about,

do let me know over at Woman's Hour. You can text me 84844. The text will be charged at your standard message rate. Get in touch with me via our website. You can send an email or on social media. All morning, we're at BBC Woman's Hour. In fact, all hours, it seems. So do get in touch

with what you want to say. But the UN now says 2 million refugees have fled Ukraine since Russia invaded. Our TV screens are full of images of Ukrainian refugees, mainly women and children, fleeing their country. However, we're increasingly seeing women who are staying and either have no choice or want to, taking an active role in the war. Women have been prominent among Ukrainian civilians fighting Russian forces since the beginning. But a striking video posted online yesterday and picked up by many newspapers today on International Women's Day, as it was yesterday, has gone around the world. And it shows, you may have seen it, six women in combat gear with their faces covered, holding machine guns and assault rifles against the backdrop of a Ukrainian flag. In case you haven't seen it, we thought it would be important for you to hear a little bit of their voices. And what they're saying there is we are women of Ukraine. We have blessed our men to protect our land.

We have already taken our children to safety and we join the men and the Ukrainian army. It goes on to say, we destroy the enemy on every inch of Ukrainian land in every city, village, forest and field. For every child, woman, old man, damaged houses and streets, we will shoot you like rabid dogs. The video ends with the message, glory will shoot you like rabid dogs.

The video ends with the message, glory to Ukraine, death to the enemies. Well, I'm joined now by a Ukrainian MP, Inna Sovson. And shortly I'll be talking to the BBC's Eastern European correspondent, Sarah Rainsford. But Inna, thank you very much for joining us today on Woman's Hour. Good morning. Good morning. Thanks for having me. I wanted to start with the decision, and in many cases, the active decision for people to stay in Ukraine.

Tell me about your feelings on that and what you want to say in response to that. I think it is understandable. It is our land, and leaving your house is an extremely difficult decision. I do understand many women who did leave in order to take their children to safety. That is an absolute normal thing to do. I have to be honest with you, the moment I heard the first bombs exploding over the city of Kiev, the first thing I needed to take care of is to make sure that my son is relocated to safety. I called his dad and we had a prearranged agreement that in case the war starts,

given that I'm a member of parliament and I cannot leave the city, he would have to take care of that. So that's an absolutely normal thing to do. But overall, I do understand it's extremely difficult. It's extremely emotional. And it's also something that the decision that no one should be taking in their lives. But many women had to take this decision. They need to take care of their children. But many more are staying. And they're staying for many reasons. Some are staying because they simply don't know how to live. Some are in those sieged cities,

like the city of Mariupol is is just a humanitarian catastrophe there I have a fellow member of parliament whose sister with his her six-year-old son are in Mariupol they were not able to get in touch with them for five days now and and recently they called and they they said that the situation over there is terrible people don't have not just food they're running out of water. They don't have any heating. That is just terrible. And that is why they cannot leave and protect their children. And many people are staying because they're living in relatively safe areas.

But then many are staying because they want to protect the city. And they need to stay in order to be useful. So people are making different decisions based on one single goal. We all are doing everything possible to survive and to make sure that our country can stand against this aggression. Yes, I was reading in some of your comments that you had said as a member of parliament, leaving would be the wrong signal, a recognition of defeat. Exactly, exactly. I couldn't do that. And I knew that in advance. Like I said, I'm divorced with the father of my son. But we had an agreement that in case the war starts, he will be relocating our son, despite the fact that in MPs have been given guns to arm themselves. Well, you know, men as well have also been given guns, but we're talking specifically about, I suppose, women's role here on Women's Hour.

Have you been given one? Is there training? We have all been given guns, both men and women. There were some differentiations in terms of which kind of guns were given to men or women. But we were all provided with guns the very first day of war, a couple of hours after we had an emergency session of the parliament. We didn't get much training about that. We are trying to learn to use that now. I'm actually feeling sorry right now because my boyfriend was always saying that probably I should teach you how to shoot. And I would always say I would never need that.

I would never be in a situation where I would need to know how to use a gun. But, well, now we have to learn to do that. I still hope that the Russians would not be able to get into the city of Kiev. But if they do, we will all have to do everything in our power to protect the city. As of now, my main weapon is talking to people. That is what I'm concentrated on. But if talking doesn't help, if explaining to the world doesn't help, I will have to defend my city by myself as well,

just like thousands of Ukrainian men are doing right now, and women, actually, in the army. Yes, well, I also mentioned that video i don't know if you did see it but it was a very striking image of course of these women standing together and we wanted to play a bit of that out so our listeners could hear it because yes women are part of armed forces all around the world women do fight uh but it's still it's still a relatively it's always uh the minority of armed forces it It's still never equal most of the time in most countries. Of course, where there's conscription, it's different.

And I suppose that site, when we have been hearing about women and children, is an image and a video that will capture people's imaginations. Yes, it is. And well, first of all, I have to say that Ukrainian army does have a relatively large proportion of women in the army, up to 18 percent or something women, which I am particularly happy about. I'm deeply involved in gender issues and I was fighting for gender equality. And we did within the last eight years of war with Russia, we did remove many of the barriers that women had before in order to serve in the army. They were allowed to hold all the positions which they didn't have access to before.

So many women were actually serving in the army in the previous eight years of war in Donbass, and many more are joining now. I heard this heartbreaking story of, because it's not just in the army, it's also the law enforcement. There are many women in police right now. And I've heard this heartbreaking story of a young female policeman who, I think a week before the war started, she learned that she was pregnant. And she went to a doctor and asked to have an abortion because she wanted to continue serving her country as a policewoman. And the last I've heard of this story, because I knew that through the doctor's network, was that she was contemplating whether she should have an abortion or not. Because she wanted to have a child, but at the same time, she was not sure if that is the best choice. And she had to make this impossible choice of whether to have a child or to continue

serving our country. And I think for the time being, she decided to try to have a baby, but the situation is getting tense and she doesn't feel secure. But that is the kind of choices that women in the army and law enforcement can be facing now as well. Yeah, I think it's important to raise those roles in law enforcement because the women have been serving in those for a long time now and those sorts of choices and those sorts of stories illuminate the reality right now.

You say you hope you don't have to use your gun. You hope by using your voice as a way of avoiding that and as a weapon, if you like, to try and fight back is the way to fight back. Where are you feeling? What are you feeling about the hopes of that being a success? Are you feeling that people around the world, that the leaders are listening? I suppose I'm asking how optimistic are you that you won't have to use your gum? I try to remain realistic in that sense but what we are seeing for now in ukraine inside uh the russians cannot really proceed any further their major convoys have been

stalled by the ukrainian army and they cannot proceed and they cannot be fighting ukrainian army because as it turns out ukrainian army is actually stronger than the russian one except for for the air that is where they have the superiority but on the ground uk, Ukrainian army is actually stronger than the Russian one, except for the air. That is where they have the superiority. But on the ground, Ukrainian army is actually pushing them further from the territories that they captured in the first couple of days of war. So that has given me hope. They didn't manage to get any closer to Kiev than they got like six, seven days ago. That has given me hope. Of course, it all now is up to the gaining superiority on the sky.

That is why everywhere I talk, any interview I give, I always say that the primary issue right now is protection of the sky, establishing a no-fly zone by another country or bloc, or helping us establish a no-fly zone with the fighter jets that can be provided to the Ukrainian pilots. That is what we're asking for, because as soon as we get superiority or at least equal footing on the sky, we can fight them on the ground.

I truly, truly believe that. And I know what the army is doing here in Ukraine, Ukrainian army. But the sky is, of course, that's where the Russians are gaining most of their superiority. They're just bombarding random cities all over Ukraine. Just today in the morning, I heard another bombardment, which killed five people in one bomb drop in a residential area. Two of those are babies under one year old. That is what they're doing. And that is why we need protection from the skies so very badly. I was going to say, which was at the heart of what President Zelensky said yesterday in his historic address to the UK Parliament, which has led to many photos today and videos being shared of that moment with our parliamentarians listening to what he had to say about keeping our skies safe. And yet so far, the NATO alliance not moving in that direction, as you're saying,

is so desperately wanted from the Ukrainian side. Ines Ovsson, thank you very much for talking to us this morning. I hope we can talk again. And all the best to you and your family, I wanted to say as well in this time. Let me bring in BBC Eastern European correspondent Sarah Rainsford. Sarah, I wanted to pick up with you if I can, because of course, after more than 20 years reporting from Moscow, I know you're coming to us now from Ukraine. The comments from Putin yesterday,

again on International Women's Day, I don't know if that was part of the thinking. He did address, as he put it, the mothers, wives, sisters, brides and girlfriends, he says, of Russian soldiers and officers who are in battle now saying, I know how worried you are. You can be proud of them just as the whole country is proud. What do you make of that appeal directly to women from Putin?

Well, I mean, it came, as you said, on International Women's Day, which has always been a massive deal across the former Soviet Union and socialist countries. So that was the point of that speech. But it was also, you know, a rallying cry by Vladimir Putin, who's attempting to present this war as a national cause. The problem is many people in Russia don't really understand what this war is all about. It was kind of launched without their say so. And now they're being rallied behind it. The striking difference, I think, in this conflict is the feeling on the ground

and the morale and the spirit of the Ukrainian nation. Because, of course, this is a cause that they do believe in. They are fighting to protect their land. They are fighting against an invasion by Russia. So, you know, it's just a very, very different feeling, I think, on either side of this conflict line. And one thing I've been struck by is just how broad the mobilisation effort is here in Ukraine. So it goes from the men and the women on the front line and fighting directly with Russian forces and staffing all the checkpoints that now dot this entire country,

right down to, for example, the women I've met in cities here in the east and the south of Ukraine who are making Molotov cocktails in the park. You know, women who, for example, I met a whole group of English teachers from an American school in Dnipro, a big city here. I found them stuffing bottles with rags and grating polystyrene chunks like they were cheese and preparing that to stuff bottles with to create bottle bombs to throw against Russian invading tanks and troops. You know, the point is that they didn't want to be doing this. In fact, one of the girls I was talking to has said that the day that the war started,

she had a dance class planned that evening and she was going to go to a party. But three days later, she was creating Molotov cocktails. You know, everyone's life has been turned absolutely upside down by this conflict. But the kind of unifying kind of force that has been created within Ukraine by Vladimir Putin's invasion is something that's quite extraordinary to see. And you being there, you can feel it and see it in those conversations that you're having right across the society. And I think what we were trying to say today is a lot of the footage and the focus here in the UK might be about what the UK isn't doing

about refugees and the images of those who are fleeing and trying to leave. But there are many, as you say, staying, the majority, and fighting. There are many staying, but there are also heart-rending, heart-breaking scenes at train stations here in Ukraine, because there are massive queues of people who are now in these areas of Ukraine, which are directly caught up in the fighting. They're trying to flee, but men are not being allowed onto trains. Men are not being allowed out of their local areas because they need to be staying here to fight.

Whereas women and children are being allowed onto trains, evacuation trains, taking them west in the country and perhaps for many of them beyond the borders to safety in other countries. So we've been seeing a lot of really awful, awful scenes of, you know, fathers kissing the glass of train carriages and, you know, trying to sort of have phone conversations through the glass and do sign language to their children and their wives on the trains. And I was standing next to one man who was, he kept repeating to himself and to me, everything's going to be okay. Everything's going to be okay. It's all fine. It's all fine. And it was like he was desperately trying to convince himself because, you know, there's an awful lot

of kind of bravado and tough talk here, but you know, this is an extremely tough fight. Yes, the Russian advance has been stalled. Yes. You know, perhaps it's not been as quick and as easy as Vladimir Putin hoped. But, you know, everyone knows here that this fight is not over. They know it's a long battle and it hurts every single day. And it is tearing families apart. Excuse my voice. Sorry, I lost my voice almost. But but but I mean, you know, it is it is really distressing to see. And so you've got very, very brave people who are staying to fight and are staying to sort of mount the barricades and all the rest of it. But you are seeing many people fleeing because it is just terrifying for them to stay here under the shelling. Thank you for painting such a vivid picture.

BBC Eastern European correspondent Sarah Rainsford, I'm sure, will talk again soon. I have to say just on that point of Sarah about men not being able to get on the trains, not being allowed to leave, Lisa's messaged in to say, while women have the choice to stay and fight or leave, of course, choice is subjective in many of these circumstances, depending on what is available. Men do not have a choice. If the inverse were true, if men had a choice and women did not, there would be outrage. Well, from that, we could have many a conversation and perhaps we will in the fullness of time. But that's what Lisa wanted to say upon hearing those two insights from a Ukrainian MP and also our correspondent. Well, to something else completely different, and I mentioned it at the beginning of the programme, in an exclusive interview in the week that her case has come back to the employment tribunal, I've sat down with Maya Forsnatter. You may have heard Maya's name.

She's the woman who lost her role at a company in 2019 after expressing beliefs about sex and gender. She took her case to employment tribunal on the basis that, amongst other claims, she had been discriminated against because of her belief. That belief is that biological sex is real, important, immutable, and cannot be conflated with gender identity. Maya lost the preliminary hearing on the basis that her beliefs were not protected under the Equality Act of 2010, but she appealed and in June last year that decision was overturned. The ruling meant that gender critical beliefs are a protected philosophical belief under that Equality Act.

This week, the next part of her tribunal starts and it will decide whether her employer discriminated against her because of her protected belief. Maya told me she first started posting her views on social media after the government published proposals to reform the Gender Recognition Act in England and Wales. So I started tweeting in September 2018. The first tweets I did were very, very dry. And I just said, there's a government consultation going on, you should be concerned about this. And here's something to read, get involved, something like that was very, sort of very dry. And then I tweeted things that were in the news. I tweeted about Karen White, the male prisoner who was put in a women's prison and sexually assaulted women. And, yeah, tweeted sort of things that were in the news at the time. And I got no response.

So I had about 2000 followers who were policy people, usually up for an argument and didn't get anything. Nobody saying you shouldn't say this. This is terrible. Nobody agreeing with me. Nothing. you shouldn't say this, this is terrible, nobody agreeing with me, nothing. And so I decided I wanted to see if I could ask a question that would get people to engage with this in their personal life. And at that time, the FT gave this award for women in business, 100 top women in business. And they included in that award, someone called Philip Bunce, who works at Credit Suisse, the bank, and Philip Bunce goes to work some days

in a wig and a dress and uses the name Pips. But Philip Bunce is a man, he doesn't identify as a woman. Of course, Philip Bunce isn't here, but yes, that's your understanding of it. This was in the papers and so on. But I mean, he has said that he doesn't identify as a woman. And so there was quite a lot of anger at the FT giving an award to a man for being a woman in business. And so I tweeted a question to my followers, mainly people working in think tanks and international development. A lot of the men have said they won't be on a panel at a conference if it's a mannel, it's all men. They'll say to the conference organiser, can't you find a woman who knows something about this topic? And so I asked the question, if you've taken this pledge not to be on a mannel, and you were invited to be on a panel with two guys and Philip Bunce, or Pips Bunce, depending on the day,

would you still see that as a mannel and would you say there are no women on this panel as a way of getting people to think about this not as being a distant thing you know not being something for a government minister or prisons policy or the olympic committee to work out but something that everyone has got an idea of what a man or a woman is and when it comes to men who've made a pledge to do something for women, do they still carry that through? Although it's a pretty poor example if he doesn't identify as a woman. Well, exactly. No, I meant from your choice of trying to make it real.

And also lots of people don't ever go on a panel or go anywhere near these sorts of events. That's true. But he works for Credit Suisse. So, you know, he does go on panels. But it was more, I mean, it was something go on panels. It was provocative, wasn't it? what people think the definition of a woman is and whether people think that definition should be broadened when it comes to things that are put in place for the benefit of women. So obviously, the Manels example is quite lightweight, but you know, single sex services, women's spaces, women's refuges, programs for women in terms of prizes or things for getting women into universities and leadership and so on.

In all of these areas, does woman mean adult human female or does it mean something else? So you were trying to elicit debate and get people's views on that because some staff at the company, at the think tank that you're associated with was said to have found your tweets offensive, transphobic. What do you say to that? I think if you define transphobia as not believing that a trans woman is a woman, so a man who identifies as a woman, is that the same as being a woman? If you disagree with that, that's transphobia. Then you will say that what I said, however I said however reasonably I said it was transphobia I mean I don't know if everybody would say that the way you said all of your tweets is reasonable and that's another thing about Twitter tone perception all of that you do tweet quite a lot don't you um yes I do I mean I did before I started tweeting about this and really since I launched my case, you know, I've sort of tweeted

more about this and obviously less about what I was tweeting about before. Perhaps we'll also come to that. But for instance, one of the tweets, a man's feeling that he is a woman has no basis in material reality. That's one of the ones that's been mentioned. Yes. So I think being a woman means adult human female. And so their feeling isn't based on material reality. It doesn't mean it's not their feeling and their feeling isn't important. But the material reality of being a woman has no basis in material reality that's not actually you talking about sex per se there that's about gender identity or certainly could be misconstrued as no i think it's about sex i think being a woman is about sex no no i know you think that but sorry what you actually wrote which is what this is also going to come down to how you were expressing yourself not necessarily what you believed because you've had a you've had a victory from your point of view on that front half a victory okay but but

my point is that right to have that view um which will also come to but those particular words can you see why some would say that's not you talking about sex that's you potentially talking about the fact that if you have gender dysphoria if if you feel a certain way about yourself, not your sex, your gender identity, you're denying that. I think it comes down to the basic question of what does the word woman mean? Does the word woman mean adult human female or does it mean gender identity?

It comes down to what you're trying to say in particular tweets, actually, in this case. You've gone to court over it. So I suppose, do you understand why some people would find that particular tweet transphobic, not for the reason you defined before? Because it's not about sex, that particular tweet. It's about gender identity, you could argue. But I wasn't talking about gender identity. I was talking about sex. I was talking about sex I was talking about being a woman which is a sex so but but I'm just using your word I suppose I'm looking at your words and trying to understand why some people may who worked with you have thought it was transphobic for a different reason than the way you then the way you define transphobia I I was trying to start a discussion about the difference between sex and the idea of gender identity. Sex is a material reality and gender identity is an idea. As you keep saying, but some of your tweets don't say that. That's the issue that I'm trying to point out for some people.

Sure, but individual tweets are part of a conversation. If you take one tweet out of a conversation and you take half a tweet and you say that's offensive, you know, you could do that with our conversation right now. But I think what's really offensive to people is the idea that I don't agree that trans women are women. I don't agree with that. It's not about the particular words. The tribunal case that we're talking about, the first part of this, looked at your tweets over a particular period. And you did go on after initially losing that preliminary tribunal to have that verdict overturned. But it was very, very clear. We'll come back to your take on that in just a moment.

It was very clear in that judgment that it doesn't mean that those with gender critical beliefs, as it's become known, can misgender trans persons with impunity and what I wanted to ask you was do you accept that there is a difference between holding a belief and the way in which it's expressed? There's quite a lot to unpack there. Yes there is there is definitely a difference. The preliminary hearing was not to look at specific tweets it was to look at my belief and is my belief covered as a philosophical belief under the Equality Act. So the tweets were looked at as kind of examples of me expressing the belief. And in the tribunal that's coming up this week, they will look in much more detail at the specific tweets as manifestations of that belief. And one of the things that they will have to test is whether

those manifestations were reasonable. So... But do you accept that distinction? There is a difference between holding a belief and the way you express it. Oh, absolutely. So do you see why some people and why, for instance, the Centre for Global Development, who you're facing in a legal proceeding, would say some of what they've said, for instance, in their statement to us?

If I go to Amanda Glassman, the chief executive of that think tank, released the following statement in advance of the next stage of your tribunal proceedings, which have just begun. The Centre for Global Development always aims to maintain a workplace and an environment that's welcoming, safe and inclusive to all, including trans people. As these proceedings will make clear, the decision to not renew Maya Forstater's unpaid affiliation was the result of a lengthy and carefully considered process and allowed us to remain true to our commitment to an inclusive workplace. The Centre for Global Development values and has always fostered an environment of intellectual debate and differences of view.

But we strongly believe that this debate must be grounded in mutual respect and that all people must be treated with dignity. Dignity, some of those tweets, I could go to more. There's been more since. They're not going to be subject to this. Do you think you tweet with dignity and about those that you're talking about with dignity? Yes, I do. Even though, for instance, with the one that we've just talked about,

some people would say, that's not, that's denying people's feelings not about sex but our gender identity i didn't tweet about gender identity i tweeted about sex being a woman is a sex i'm not denying that that's your view but i'm trying to say okay if we look at a tweet that's not covered in this period you tweeted in 2020 many trans men have a cervix is a much more politically palatable point than many trans women have a penis and women are not a homogenous group nor are men. Men can't become women or stop being men by saying so, by changing their clothes or even modifying parts of their body. Let's stop pretending they can. It's still your belief at the heart of that that you're talking about about sex but the

way that you put those views out there do you ever have any regrets about the way you express yourself because that's what's if you like on on trial here well well that i mean that's the big question for the tribunal is whether it is about particular words or particular ways that I express myself or whether it's about the belief itself. The tweet that you've read out, as I said, being a woman means being female, being a man means being male. You can't change from one to the other. You don't just keep tweeting that though, that's my point. You find other words, everybody does. You tweet a lot and you tweet only largely about this subject at the moment, as many campaigners would do. That's what you've ended up becoming, if I can define you as such. Do you accept that there are at times better ways to express yourself that don't deny some people's expressing yourself. I think it's about whether men can be in women's sports, whether men can be in women's prisons, whether men can be in women's refuges.

Well, it's also whether you're going to get a payout for losing your role, as far as you can see. In this particular instance, this is what these tweets have led to because you're concerned about people losing their employment. Right, and exactly. We need to be able to talk about that in clear words. If we can't make a distinction between male people and women and female people,

then how can we talk about whether it's fair for a male swimmer to be beating female swimmers? But you're not talking, you're tweeting. Yes. So this comes to the point of view of colleagues potentially finding you transphobic. Did you ever have any conversations with colleagues that put you in a position where you will put them in a position where they may think that you're transphobic? It was never raised with me. I can't say what other people think. place because you know you looked at me in a slightly odd way when I said you're tweeting you're not talking you know a lot of people would say Twitter's not often the best place to have

these debates you may differ um but you're talking about this in the context of an employment tribunal now I recognize you're limited with some of what you can say but did you actually have these conversations face to face or in person on a zoom call or something with people you worked with oh it was before zoom land but uh yes, I mean, I worked in the think tank. And so, you know, we talked about lots of things. We talked about Brexit, we talked about Donald Trump. And we talked about whether the government should change the law to gender self ID. Not a lot, but it was something that came up in conversation. But it was mainly because I tweeted about it. Okay. And do you regret any of the ways

in which you've expressed yourself on this? Because that's what's at the heart of this. No, I don't. Because your view is protected by that ruling, but the way you've expressed yourself may still mean that your former place of work has the right to end its association with you. Do you accept that? Well, that's what the tribunal is going to be looking at. But do you accept that a place of work has the right to end its association with you if tweets you do outside of work do not comply with what they say are their ways of doing business? You don't have absolute freedom of speech at work. You know, if you work for a supermarket, you're not allowed to tell people that the competing supermarket is the best place. There are things that your workplace

can not allow you to do because of your job, but those things have to be reasonable. They can't stop you expressing a legally held view in all circumstances. And do you think you've ever been hostile or rude in any of your exchanges online that an employer could look at and think ill of? I recognise you can see there are limits to free speech in and around this subject, because that's mainly what we're talking about. You'd have to ask somebody else who's looking at my tweets. I'm not going to, you know, say what somebody else might think of me. And I recognise you're in a legal proceeding, but I suppose it's just that,

do you ever take a step back from this and think, maybe I went a bit farther? No, I think, you know, my case comes in the context of hundreds of women, probably thousands of women and men. But, you know, I hear mainly from women who have been investigated at work, who have been put under pressure to keep quiet about this issue, and who are anonymous on social media because of it. And people who've done things like liking a tweet by JK Rowling, and they've been reported and, you know, had the start of an investigation because of that. So I really don't think it's about how I said it. It's about a much wider pressure to shut people down from even expressing the mildest opinion about this if it disagrees with the idea that gender identity should replace sex.

I suppose it's actually not. What I'm trying to get at is whether the tone of the conversation on both sides has been conducive to getting anywhere with it. You said right at the beginning of this, I wanted to start a conversation. I wanted to hear people's views. And I wonder if you think it's been worth it, if you think those exchanges have been meaningful

or have you just forced yourself into your own echo chamber where you're surrounded by those who agree with you? I think things have changed quite a lot from when I started tweeting about this in terms of there being a debate in the media, there being... Well, it went on the political agenda. It's not just conversations on social media, of course. No, exactly. But partly what I was responding to was the lack of careful, reasoned conversation. So, you know, you can't talk about this in university. We saw what happened to Kathleen Stock. I was working in a think tank. You know, those debates are not going on. The kind of think tanks, the organisations,

the women's sector are having these debates with fear. And that's not right. I mean, there are real conflicts of rights, conflicts of interest between women and trans women, and we ought to be able to talk about those. Twitter's not the ideal place to talk about them, but if there's nowhere else than Twitter, at least it starts the conversation. But I suppose just reversing that,

do you think Twitter's poisoned it to the point that people are scared to have those conversations? You're saying some people already were, but it is quite hostile out there. You will have seen it. It's hostile about lots of topics. But the so-called culture wars, which this then gets put into. I wonder if you feel that you could move this elsewhere now, that things have changed in a better way. I would definitely like to. I wonder if you feel that you could move this elsewhere now that things have changed in a better way? I would definitely like to. I mean, you know, I've set up an organisation, Sex Matters, to do some of this work, to do the research, to do the analysis, because the established organisations

were not doing that. I think it's not what people are afraid of is not hostility on twitter what people are afraid of is losing their jobs and harming their careers and that happens because complaints processes within organizations get weaponized well there's also those people especially those trans people who who feel that for instance you know if I look at after the ruling, the ruling which overturned the original one and the LGBT Foundation gave the response concerning that ruling that despite repeat references to respect to trans people, that the ruling would give licence for some to hold harmful beliefs about trans people without consequences.

I suppose that's the other side of concern. They believe that my belief is harmful and that I should lose my job because of it. Well, let's not, well, I don't know if they believe that you should lose your job over it, but they certainly wouldn't agree with your view. I think that's safe to say. Well, the Equality and Human Rights Commission came in on the preliminary hearing, supporting the view that this belief should be protected. And the LGBT Foundation disagreed with the EHRC. They didn't think this belief should be protected. And another employment judge...

Doesn't necessarily, sorry to interrupt, doesn't necessarily make it that they believe you should lose your job. Well, it means you wouldn't have any protection against discrimination and harassment. So if you lost your job because of it, you wouldn't be able to go to tribunal. So you say one follows the other? Yes. Another employment judge called it open season. If you don't have protection against

discrimination for your beliefs, then employers can discriminate and harass you because of your beliefs. So for people who are trying to follow this, you're now at this other stage, which is actually whether you were employed and whether you should have lost your role over it, over what you tweeted, despite your beliefs now being protected. Right. It's about whether my employer discriminated against me and harassed me because of my beliefs. Going through the court system and having the spotlight on you, how have you found that? It's been like boiling a frog, you know, kind of gradual. I've got a really good legal team and the legal process itself, there's lots of high stress and then lots and lots of waiting.

So all of that has been, you know, sort of quite stressful. And then obviously losing in December 2019 the initial yeah the initial loss was was awful what was that like it was it was just gutting I couldn't believe that the judge had you know said that my belief is not worthy of respect in the democratic society which means it's on par with nazism and fascism when talking about the limits of of what we have right in terms of which which beliefs should not be protected it's really it's beliefs that that destroy other people's rights and that means wanting to overthrow the government by violent revolution or being a neo-na. And the judge had put my really ordinary belief that there are two

sexes and people can't change sex and said that that was on par with Nazism. Why do you think they did that? I mean, he got the law wrong and that's why it was overruled. You then go back in, there's quite a wait and it's overturned. And how did you feel at that point? Yeah, that was amazing. I mean, that was sort of deep in lockdown. And I remember coming into London one day and feeling like there was a sort of invisible ticker tape parade. You know, I had this amazing win and I couldn't see anybody to celebrate it with for months and months. But it was brilliant to have it overturned. And then in the sort of months after that, I've met so many people who've said to me, your judgment has made a difference to me in my

job. Teachers, social workers, nurses, all sorts of people who, where the difference between sex and gender identity matters more practically in their job than it did to me as a think tank. And, you know, they've said this allows us to look at our policies and to say, you know, have you checked this against safeguarding? Is this right? And not feel frightened that they're going to lose their job for saying sex matters. And it was also brought to more prominence with JK Rowling.

Yes, so that was drawing attention to the day after i lost she she tweeted and that came out of the blue i didn't are you have you met her have you got a relationship not yet we've um we've dm'd you've direct message for some of our listeners who are perhaps on twitter as much as you okay and and i mean what is that relationship like of, because she's she's very high profile in all of this. I don't know. Fairy godmother, I suppose. I didn't know that she was watching the case. I had no contact with her before. And the day after I lost, someone messaged me a screenshot of her tweeting. And I thought that they made it up to cheer me up.

You know, I just, it came out of the blue and it's made the case much more high profile. It put a lot of attention on me, whereas before, you know, there were some people paying attention to the case, but, you know, you had to be quite interested in it. And then once it became linked to JK Rowling, there were lots of people trying to discredit her for what she said and so in order to discredit her they tried to discredit me and to say that I had misgendered a trans person in in my workplace which I hadn't and I wouldn't and I didn't have any trans colleagues. Would you as it's described misgender or use a pronoun that they weren't choosing? No, from the very start I told...

Not just at work, I mean generally. It depends what the context is. So I told my workplace that in any professional or social setting, I would use whatever preferred pronouns that people want. And that is true. But I'd also come into conflict. I'm a scout leader. And I'd had a conflict on Twitter with another scout leader who I've never met, who prefers to be called they, but who looks like a man with a beard. And I had accidentally called this person he on Twitter and they reported me to the Scout Association who ended up investigating me for two years, sort of in parallel to the employment tribunal. the scouts if I was as a scout leader at camp and there was somebody male in the women's showers or

the girls showers I wouldn't stop and ask them what their pronouns were it doesn't matter what their gender identity is I would say there's a man in the women's showers and I would make sure that those girls and women are safe so in some situations respect for gender identity can't be the first thing no but I suppose what you what I'm seeing with even in our conversation when some of your tweets as well as you have a tendency when I ask you a question or it's asked about pronouns to then take it to a violent situation a potential threat situation and I suppose it's that leap that people can also take issue with which is giving the idea that those who are trans are going to be violating people no that's not that's not what I'm saying no no but I'm just saying I'm noticing in the pattern of when we're

talking where you take the example too it's the worst possible case in your mind for why you may end up in the situation and i recognize you're trying to answer the question fully but but do you see that that leap in itself for some even if they actually agree with you about sex but have you know their view on gender identity identifies trans whatever because there are obviously trans people who do have an issue with some of the same things that you have an issue with we should remember that but that leap in itself is offensive i it would be difficult otherwise to answer the question if i answered the question your question and said i would never misgender somebody you know never not use the pronoun they wanted i would be lying because there are some

situations where i think that is justified and well yeah from you as you describe it someone's you know never not use the pronoun they wanted I would be lying because there are some situations where I think that is justified and well yeah from you as you describe it someone's in a shower that you see that they shouldn't be but you don't have to go that far to always give to make your point and you do that a lot in your tweets and that's what's on the stand this week as a scout leader you're trained on safeguarding and safeguarding does I mean, you have to go to the worst possible scenario. If you assume the best of everybody. But I didn't ask you about safeguarding. I asked you generally in your social life or work.

You brought up this example. That's fair enough. And that's part of your experience. I really understand that. But, you know, do you understand why always reaching for what could be a violent situation or a threatening situation when asked about this is for some a worrying indication of your views on trans people? No, it's not about my views on trans people. It's about sex. 98% of sexual assaults are carried out by men. And we have to be able to talk about that. You're on Woman's Hour.

We're not going to debate the violence against women. You know, I do that pretty much every day on this programme. You know, you're talking to the converted about statistics there. But it's about the question. The question I asked you wasn't about sex. It was actually about people's preferred pronouns and your respect of that. It was about respect, really. You know, as I said, I will use people's preferred pronouns in a social situation. But where it's necessary to be explicit about somebody's sex, whether it's to do with collecting data or whether it's to do with sport or whether it's to do with crime or whether it's to do with enabling and recognising women we have to be able to make

the distinction between male and female men and women and many people will agree with you will be you know saying that in unison with you on the radio now but you know what's the impact been on your family life your your kind of day to day? Yeah, it's been quite stressful. I wouldn't recommend anyone to go into an employment tribunal lightly. And it's not a battle that my children picked or my husband picked, but they've supported me. You say it's important. Do you regret fighting this in any way because of the toll it may have had personally? I'm not talking about your views, just the reality of going into this. No, I don't. I think, you know, this is a

really important battle. And women in the UK are standing up against gender ideology in a way that hasn't really happened anywhere else. And saying, we need to be able to put women's rights first. We need to be able to put truth first. And that doesn't mean you can't respect transgender people, can't respect their dignity, can't figure out how to accommodate them in public life in every way and protect them from discrimination and harassment. But you have to be able to talk about material reality. So I'm quite proud that I'm part of this and I'm really proud of what's going on in the UK. Maya Forstater, who's in the middle of that second part of her case,

of course, will keep up to date with that case. But shall we have some music? Since the moment I could see That you fell in love with me All my troubles that left me They walked right out the door What a wonderful relief You're the rock beneath my feet

How could I ask for much more? That song is called Oh To Be Loved By You and it's from the new album Never Forget My Love by Joss Stone, who joins me now. Joss Stone, good morning. Where have you been? You've been around the world, haven't you? Yes, I have. I've been very busy going to every country in the world,

which is a bit crazy. So, yeah, thanks for playing the song. It's nice to uplift the moment. It is. I mean, of course, we're living in very serious and difficult times. I hope you will have heard some of the voices that we were sharing from Ukraine. But I was very aware when reading about where you have been, this is your first album, I believe, in seven years, that you really have gone to so many countries. Yep.

How has that been? It was the most amazing thing, actually. I'm so glad that I did it because it helped me to see so many different um kind of approaches to life which I think is really important um and now I realize how important it is obviously I heard lots of different music ate different food and danced lots of different dances but it's just lovely to to know that really at the core of everything, we all are the same. We all love, we all cry when we lose someone. You know, it doesn't matter where you're from, what culture,

we all have the same heart, really. We're all human. And that's a nice thing to know. And now I really know it because I've been everywhere. Yeah, I mean, we're going to say pretty much I was looking at what, did you do every country? That was the ambition. How many did you do? Okay okay so I went to every country and the mission was not to go to every country oh sorry

mission was the mission was to play a gig in every country and I did that apart from one and it was so gutting so I this is the worst this is the worst story but um go on I love to start with the worst story yeah but perfect for women's hour so um so I did the whole load of it it took me six years and on the very very last gig which was Iran I I got off the plane I put my foot onto the floor and I tell you what I had a feeling feeling come over me. I thought, Joss, this is not it. This is not it. You are not going to finish this right now. And I don't know why I had that feeling, but I just, I thought, no, it can't be that easy.

You know, we've gone from one place to the other. It's been fine. Anyway, we stand in the immigration line and I'm like, my heart's going. So I'm thinking this is, this is it, Jossie. You know, you're almost done. And I got there and they said, oh, I'm so sorry, but you all of you guys are on the blacklist. I said blacklist? What's a blacklist? I'm not on a blacklist. What do you mean? And he goes, well, I'm not quite sure why. It's just coming up in our computer.

So we're going to put you in this room over here um and it was all a bit scary because you know we've heard a lot about Iran and you know we know that we're not allowed to play publicly there we know that that's the law and the same thing in Saudi Arabia which we we played privately you know same thing in North Korea we played privately um so this guy comes in and he's so sweet and I'm a bit nervous now because he separated me from my brother and I know in countries after learning a bit about it I know any country where you have to cover your hair if you get separated from your male counterpart that's not good because they kind of allow you know they kind of expect you to have a male with you. It's a little bit like that. That's just the way it is in these places.

So they separated me from Harry and I thought, oh, no, no, no, no. This is this is not going to go well. So what happened? The guy sits down and he goes, first of all, I would like to welcome you to Iran. And I thought, OK, I don't feel very welcomed. I feel very nervous. He goes, no, no, no, no, no. Please don't feel like that. He says, I'm so sorry, but we have to deport you because women cannot sing here. It's not allowed. And I said, no, I'm not, I know the the rules I'm not planning on breaking any rules but you know I had to tell him my whole story and then he had to believe me and it was it was crazy but

they were the sweetest nicest people while while while deporting while deporting me yes exactly so so the result the result was the same but the treatment was very nice oh they were lovely so they said um so normally said normally in that case, you would be left on the airport floor overnight and then you get on the next flight. But the guys, honestly, I think Iranians are just beautiful people, and they're embarrassed about this awful law. Well, some of them definitely will be,

especially the ones who are having to deport people like yourself and who want to come and play albeit privately well it is beautiful to hear your voice again can i say that oh thank you so much you've been working with your long-time collaborator of course the Eurythmics legend Dave Stewart a very good working relationship there and and there's another song you're my girl which celebrates female friendship and companionship tell us about that so this this one, I was writing this album when I was about four or five months pregnant. And I didn't know that I was having a girl. But I noticed that each time I was writing, it kind of just kept coming out. And the word girl and then I thought, you know what, this is about my friend Celine. So Celine is somebody

that I would call and say, Hey, do you want to come to Somalia and play a gig with me? And most musicians would go, sorry, what? Uh, no. And she says, of course, babe, let's do this. You know, she's like, she is one of my best friends and she honestly is up for anything. And she'll be there for you at four o'clock in the morning if you call her. And that's the type of friend that you want. And that's how my mum was. Well, I was going to say, there's a lovely line. You can call me at 4am, whatever, and you help.

Just before coming on air, actually, I was directing my husband to some painkillers in the house for a good friend who lived down the street. So, you know, just before anything or just in the middle of the night, you have to be ready. You've got to be there. You have become a mum, as you've mentioned congratulations on that a whole other perspective that I hope at another point with more time we could explore but you have also been on television dressed as a sausage in the Masked Singer very important you know never mind that existential change of becoming a mother oh forget that no that funny, wasn't it? How was that for you? It was just so funny. I'm so glad now I'm older and I'm not so worried about being like

credible or cool. Now I just make really fun decisions and everything is very like bright. So that was one of them. I just love that. I think you're right when you did start particularly young, you know, you won a competition on the BBC at 13. And then at 16, youngest ever female artist to top the the albums chart. It's lovely to hear that freedom as you get older. And I know you're coming back to the UK, you bought the home that you grew up in. Is that right? Oh, yeah. So that was when I was about 17. So when my parents split up, I, I said, No, no, we can't lose the family home.

So luckily I had a job and I could actually buy it. So I've still got that. And yeah, at the moment I'm living outside of Nashville for a few years just to write some songs and work with Dave. He's down the road. Good old Dave. But yeah, but I'll be coming back. I'll be coming back because Violet has to go to school and all my siblings have had babies now. So it's going to be nice.

I do love the fact you also said when dating, you know, just make sure you bring up the fact before you met your partner that you'd like to have seven children and see how they react. Oh, yes. You've got to be honest. And if they run, they better run fast.

They've got to get out of the way as soon as possible. Yeah, it's a really good tester, ladies. You know, really throw it out there. I want seven kids, please. And a cow. Right, Joss, well, you know, as my mum used to say, have one and come back to me and see how you do. But you've already done that and we'll keep talking.

I'd love to welcome you back to Woman's Hour and it's lovely to have your voice, your speaking voice and your singing voice on the programme this morning. The new album is called Never Forget My Love and that single, Ought To Be Loved By You. Thank you so much, Joss Stone. A pleasure to talk to you today. And thank you for all of your company. Back tomorrow at 10. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Thank you so much for your time. Join us again for the next one. All right, here we go, Oti. Five, six, seven, eight. Dance. It has the power to connect and to entertain.

And in a new series for BBC Radio 4 and BBC Sounds, I explore the iconic dancers who have been doing just that. Dance, it really, I think, saved my life. Join me, Oti Mabuse, as I delve into the lives of the innovators and the mall breakers who have changed dance forever. Gene Kelly was this working class guy that I just really connected with that. Ultima Busa's Dancing Legends on Radio 4 and BBC Sounds. things in other currencies. If you're sending or spending money abroad, you should use Wise. You'll have up to 40 currencies in the palm of your hand. Wise gives you the real exchange rate,

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