Woman's Hour - Julia Bradbury and breast cancer, Profile of Chancellor Angela Merkel, Charlie Webster on sexual abuse and safeguarding laws

Episode Date: September 20, 2021

It took three separate assessments before it was confirmed that TV presenter Julia Bradbury had breast cancer. It’s a disease that will affect 1 in 8 women, so why does it sometimes go unnoticed? And what can you do if you suspect something might be wrong? Julia and breast surgeon Liz O'Riordan join Emma to discuss.As Germany’s long serving Chancellor Angela Merkel prepares to stand down later this month we look at her life and legacy and ask what’s she done for women? Her biographer Margaret Heckel and the journalist Stefanie Bolzen from Die Welt join Emma Barnett to discuss the woman who has been at the heart of European and global Politics for the last twenty years through the tumultuous years of the financial crisis, Brexit and the Covid 19 pandemic.Broadcaster and journalist Charlie Webster was 12 when she joined an all-girls elite running group in Sheffield. Running became her passion and it was at the track where she met some of her best friends. But it was also where Charlie was abused for years by her sports coach. At the time, she didn’t speak out about what her coach did to her, but after she left the group she discovered her coach had been arrested and convicted, and sent to prison for 10 years. Now Charlie has made a documentary, Nowhere To Run: Abused By Our Coach. She joins Emma to discuss the documentary and her campaign to improve safeguarding laws in sport.Presenter: Emma Barnett Producer: Lucinda Montefiore

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Emma Barnett and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Good morning and welcome to the programme. Monday morning again, which means school for girls and boys in this country, but not in Afghanistan where secondary schools have reopened for boys, but not for girls. And also female government workers in Kabul have been told to stay at home where secondary schools have reopened for boys but not for girls. And also female government workers in Kabul have been told to stay at home unless their jobs cannot be filled by a man. A reality we shall keep you across.

Closer to home in terms of politics in this country, yesterday morning, Sa'ed Devi, the leader of the Lib Dems during the party's annual political conference, was asked by my colleague Andrew Marr about his party's policy on transgender rights. He specifically asked him, what is wrong with the phrase woman, colon, adult, human, female? Andrew asked Ed Davey three times whether he agreed with the phrase, and his response was that the phrase doesn't really encapsulate the debate, saying a trans woman

is a woman and a trans man is a man. And that is the issue we are fighting on. You can hear part of that interview in just a moment. Maybe you caught it live and saw it and have been discussing it ever since. Maybe not, because that's the question I want to ask you today. Is this issue how women and men are defined legally or otherwise, or even the use of the word woman affecting your life? Is it touching your world? It's caught alight as an issue in all of the main political parties. We learned over the weekend that the Labour MP Rosie Duffield isn't going to the annual Labour Party conference out of fears for her security, citing online threats, she says, from transgender activists. She's often clashed with trans rights campaigners over her position on issues such as

access to female-only spaces. But how much of this issue and debate is live in your life? Do you have concerns or do you struggle to follow it? Do you talk about it with your friends? Do you think it's overblown and nothing to do with you? Or is this playing centre stage in your current discussions about feminism and women's rights? Shortly, I hope to be talking to Christine Jardine, the MP for Edinburgh West for the Lib Dems and the Lib Dems Treasury spokesperson.

We'll be talking about this shortly, but your views are important to me to hear. Text me on Women's Hour 84844. Text will be charged at your standard message rate. Do check those costs with your network provider. On social media, you can get in touch with me at BBC Women's Hour or email me through our website. Also on today's programme, the TV presenter Julia Bradbury in her first broadcast interview is going to talk to us about finding out she has breast cancer

ahead of her surgery next month. And days before Angela Merkel, a.k.a. Mutsi, steps down as Chancellor of Germany after 16 years, what will the history books say? But first, the toxicity of the debate around trans rights and self-identification, which means the ability to have the legal right to self-declare your gender rather than provide medical evidence of gender dysphoria first, is an issue across all political parties. And it reached the Lib Dems at their annual conference this weekend. Just to remind you, being able to legally self-ID,

as it's known and I just defined, is not happening in England. It was taken off the table by this government, by Boris Johnson, but it is set to happen in Scotland under Nicola Sturgeon and her alliance with the Greens. The Lib Dems also support it. And the Lib Dems leader, Sir Ed Davey, has been questioned about Natalie Bird, a former Lib Dem activist who was banned from holding party office for a decade after wearing a T-shirt carrying that phrase woman colon adult human female. Trans rights activists say the phrase is associated with hostility. Have a listen to this from Andrew Marr's interview with Sir Ed yesterday.

I do want to come back to this phrase. What is wrong with the phrase? Can you explain to people watching what is wrong with the phrase woman adult human female? what is wrong with the phrase woman, adult, human, female? What's wrong with that? Well, I mean, the phrase actually doesn't really encapsulate the debate, to be honest. That's what's the problem with it. The issue that we have been really clear is that a trans woman is a woman, a trans man is a man.

And that is the issue that we're fighting on. We believe trans rights are human rights. But I do take you back to Boris Johnson, because there was a time... Let's face it. I mean, let's be honest, Andrew. These are difficult issues for many people. I'm trying to keep off Boris Johnson at the moment and on to Ed Davion, the Liberal Democrats, because the reason I keep using that phrase, as I'm sure you know,

is that one of your members, Natalie Bird, has been banned from standing as a Liberal Democrat in any circumstances for 10 years because she wore a T-shirt which had that slogan on it. Well, we have complaints issues which I'm not part of the total independence. I can't come on an individual case. What I can say... That is true, what I've just told you. That is true. And, you know, the Liberal Democrats used to be a tolerant, open party,

keen for debate and keen, above all, for free speech. Now, you disagree with Natalie Bird. She disagrees with you. But with that single phrase, she has been cast out of your party. That's not liberal, is it? We absolutely believe in free speech, but we also believe that we need to protect human rights and we need to believe in equality. Sir Ed Davey talking yesterday on the Andrew Marr programme. I'm joined now by Christine Jardine, the MP for Edinburgh West and the party's Treasury spokesperson. Good morning. Good morning, Christine. I'm hoping Christine can unmute. Perhaps we're in that era of muting and

unmuting. Sorry about that. Good morning, Christine. Good morning. Thanks for joining us. Do you agree with your leader on this? Should the Liberal Democrats be barring those from standing that they disagree with from holding party office? I think it's a much more complicated situation than that. And I think that's an oversimplification. I think where we are in this debate

is a very difficult place. You asked if it's affecting our lives well yes actually it does affect mine i have a close friend whose son is currently going through um reassignment i have a close colleague in the party who is a trans woman and i feel very much that in this debate we have lost sight of the fact that it's people's lives that we're talking about and that we all need to just calm down a little and think about the situation and how nasty and toxic it has got and what impact that has on people at the centre of it and try and be a bit more conciliatory and a bit more open to talking to one another and just find a way ahead so that these women and these men

are not victims of discrimination and victimisation in the way that they have been. But this is about policy and what you would do with power and what would be real life circumstances for people, which is why I think it's important to be very clear on the Lib Dem position, because many people listening to this programme will be asking what is wrong with the phrase woman, colon, adult, human, female. I've got text messages to that effect. Well, what I understand is wrong with it is that it is seen by the trans community as being trans-exclusionary and is used as a slogan

by people who are opposed to trans rights. And we're the Liberal Democrats, we would stand for every minority. We stand up for them. We believe that we are all equally entitled to the protection of the law, to the understanding of society. And, you know, if I had two children, that one was trans and the other wasn't, I would want them to be treated absolutely the same way.

And that, for the Liberal Democrats, is what this debate is about. It's about giving people their rights and protecting them. Do you believe it is exclusionary to define a woman in that way, adult, human, female? To be absolutely frank, I try not to get involved in the argument about the semantics of this, because to me, it is about people. It is about people's rights. It's about protecting people. With all due respect, that is another way of a politician not answering the question. It's not just semantics to a lot of people. I'm being absolutely honest with you. I think that's why we have got into the situation

where this debate has become so toxic. We talk about terms, we talk about things. We forget that we are talking about people. One of the most moving things I ever heard in this debate was at the Lib Dem conference two years ago, where the wife of one of our candidates in the election, who is a trans woman, was talking about how it had impacted her life as the wife of a trans woman. And how before gender reassignment, her then husband had been suicidal and how difficult life had been for and she faced the decision of did she support him

in becoming uh transgender did she support him through that process or did she risk leaving her children with just the one parent because he committed suicide because it was such a difficult and life-changing situation that they were in and if I you know I had that and I was so moved and that to me is the reality of it I'm like most people I've been on a journey with this of understanding and coming to coming coming to some sort of understanding of what people are going through and seeing my friend's son, knowing what they go through. We have messages just like that. Sorry, we do have messages to this effect. And they are very important and emotional stories. They are people's lives. I'm a 50-something

feminist woman, mother of two daughters, Emma, this message. One cis, one trans. Which of them do you think I'm more afraid for as far as feeling threatened is concerned? Another message here talking about how actually, as this is an interesting one from Frida, who's listening as a trans woman myself, though, I've never had issues in my real working and social life. Women are too busy for this phony culture war. It's only used for political leverage

and exploits the insecurities of voters. Trans people just want to get on with life. She doesn't sound like she feels that what you're saying does represent her. Actually, I think what Fida is saying is absolutely vital. And I think that we need to listen to that and we need to move forward. Trans people do just want to live their lives. Let's run through a few policy areas. Do you believe people who were born a biological male

should be allowed in female-only spaces like refuges and prisons? I think it's important about protecting women. We've just been through in Parliament several years to get a domestic abuse bill on the legislation. It was difficult at times, but there was a consensus across the house to find the best solution we could for everybody. What we have is not perfect, but domestic abuse, domestic violence is a huge issue. And I think it has made everyone, or at least I hope it has made everyone, more aware of the need to protect women in every circumstance. Now, we want to protect women, but trans women are

women. And what we need to do is protect all of them in society. So the answer to that question is what? Do you believe people who are born a biological male should be allowed in female-only spaces? Well, apart from the fact that I think we need to get away from that language, people who are women and who have identified as women should be allowed to be women's species. With all due respect, you don't get to rewrite the questions. You do get to answer it.

You do get to answer it. Is the answer to that question, because you may call it semantics, but this is the language of our life. And I'm trying to communicate with someone who wants to be in power and people have a right to know if they would want to vote for you whether somebody who was born a biological male should be allowed in a female only space like a refuge which is a very specific space

well yes or no if if someone has going is going through gender reassignment, according to the Act, a trans woman who has gender reassignment is legally a woman. So you believe, yes. If she doesn't, the Equality Act can be used to decide. So the answer to the question... Absolutely. I'm being absolutely clear. Someone who is regarded under the Equalities Act because of gender reassignment,

regardless of what they were born biologically, what they are reassigned is their gender. So if you are born a man and you go through, your biological definition is a man, and you're going through gender reassignment and you're declared as a woman and you are going through that reassignment, then yes, you should be allowed in those spaces.

Do you understand why some people will not be comfortable with that? Because reassignment, of course, is not the same as self-ID. Of course I do. Of course I do. And I think that is where we have to go with this debate. We have to start understanding one another's positions and we have to start listening to one another and not being so reactive all the time and not making it such a toxic debate you know i watched it's a sin you're going to go

into a story about watching it's a sin and quite frankly i can't quite go into that right now because we've got to get through a few other policy areas okay a message here apart from the few that say as well i'm fed up with the media about trans issues. We've got one here saying, it's so unfair on everyone that self-identifying by trans people means everyone else has no choice in this matter. We've got a few messages to that effect saying your stance as a liberal Democrat is illiberal. Well, as someone who's not trans, I don't accept that because I don't feel in any way limited by giving someone else their human rights. Not in any way, shape or form. I don't feel threatened by it. What's about somebody who feels... if you don't mind, that is why it's important to think about where we are in this issue and where we've come from and where we might end up. And if you look back at the 80s, it's why I mentioned this, if you look back at the 80s, you'll see that all the language that we were using then,

all the debate that was going on, the toxicity around it was exactly the same. And what we have to do is get away from that and, you know, be on a journey together, if you like children children or 30 years from now we will be as horrified by this debate and the way we've behaved that's a big that's a big prediction about who you think will be horrified by what but you've made it at what age does it do the lib dems believe children can give informed consent for gender reassignment surgery you mentioned you have a friend whose son is going through this what age well the way um men were treated in the 80s is relevant i would say it's always relevant we should learn from it and move on um gender reassignment

i think that that is something i have a friend whose um son is going through gender reassignment at the moment and it very often as i it, I'm not an expert in this, I'm a mother who has taken interest in it from that perspective. And I think we all should look at it from that perspective as human beings. And I think, from what I understand, it happens roundabout. For most people, it begins to be an issue roundabout puberty. And I think it's important that we look at it as families, that we look at it as we bring the parents involved in the discussion

and that at the centre of it is the child involved and what they need and the support that they need. But I'm not talking to you as a mother. I'm talking to you as a politician who wants power. Yeah, but that's part of who I am, Emma. No, no. It's part of who I am. I don't deny that.

But for the purposes of our listeners who want to know about the Liberal Democrat policies, have you not figured that one out yet? Do you not have an answer? Yes, of course we do. What's the age then? The age then, the age is different, if I remember rightly, in Scotland and England. Yes, of course we do. What's the age then? The age then, the age is different, if I remember rightly, in Scotland and England.

Yes, it is. That is where, if you like, I'm hesitating because you've got two separate audiences. And it is, it is a vital issue that we get to the bottom of with children. But what's the Lib Dem policy? A Lib Dem policy is to, that's why I'm talking about being

a mother, a Lib Dem policy is to listen to what the experts say, to listen to what the medical people say, to listen to what the psychologists say. You've not got a policy. Hang on a minute. Sorry. The courts, Emma, this is for the courts and the experts. With all due respect, I am listening to

your words. I am writing them down, as I always do during interviews. It is a vital issue, you're saying, of our age. And you can't tell me what age the Liberal Democrats believe children can give informed consent for gender reassignment surgeries. So I'll ask you again, what is the age or do you not have a policy? We believe that it is an individual case. Doctors are in the best place to judge and it should go to the courts. Doctors can judge if someone under 16 can give informed consent to puberty blockers. The Court of Appeal has ruled that. Now, this is something which it's a huge issue and it has to be done with medical advice.

It has to go through the courts. And I look at this. The courts have just been removed from the process. A big problem? The courts have just been removed from that process, overturning Keira Bell, the woman who transitioned aged 17 and regretted its landmark case.

Yeah. So you've just said the courts should be involved. We support the recent appeal decision. We support the recent appeal decision and the Court of Appeal. But you just said the courts should be involved. They're not going to be anymore. It's going to be back to doctors.

Doctors can judge if under-16s, as I said, our policy is that doctors can judge if under-16s can give informed consent to puberty blockers. We support the recent appeal decision and the Court of Appeal. That is our policy. So you believe that the age, then the answer to the question is what?

What age do the Lib Dems believe children can give informed consent for gender reassignment surgeries? It is different in Scotland. What is the age? Well, what I've just said that, you know, doctors can judge if they're under 16, they would have consent at 16, but if they're under 16, doctors can judge. And it's round about the age of puberty most children um would be would would um be finding it becoming an issue for them or as i understand that it can happen much earlier than that but it's round about puberty that it is critical just just finally you're a scottish mp

of course you're very aware of the differences here it's a very live debate in scotland because nicola sturgeon says she will aim to pass a pass a gender self-identification law in this parliament. I presume the Lib Dems will be voting with the SNP on this in Scotland? Sorry, can you say that again? Will the Lib Dems be voting with the SNP on this in Scotland? Well, that depends on what the SNP are voting. The SNP are very divided on this but we would be supporting trans rights

and we would yeah, if the Scottish Government comes forward with a proposal for gender recognition and the Gender Recognition Act then we would support it because we feel it's vital that we move forward in this and that this is

not, that we don't lose sight of the fact that what we're talking about here are individuals and individuals lives. You summed it up, I think, very well at the beginning when you said, is this part of your life? Is this something that affects you? And I think, yes, it is. And actually, I think it's something that affects all of us, because if it would be unusual nowadays in this country to know someone whose life has not been touched by this issue in some way. And I think that that is what we have to remember all of the time in this, that it's a vital individual

and that whatever we do is not prescriptive. Very, very briefly, the Labour MP, Rosie Duffield, doesn't feel she can go to her party conference out of fears for her security. She says online threats from transgender activists. Very briefly, if you will, your reaction to that? I think that's very sad and it's unacceptable. I don't think anyone in any political debate should feel that they are not safe. I don't care what their view is, what side they're on in any argument. I do not think it's acceptable for anyone

to be so threatened online that they feel unable to go to... But this is about this issue. That's what I'm saying. It is. And that's why I think we have to take the toxicity out of it. Christine Jardine, that is all... People like Rosie are victims like everybody else. Christine Jardine, that is all... People like Rosie are victims like everybody else.

Christine Jardine, that's all we've got time for. Thank you very much for making time to talk to us today. The MP for Edinburgh West and the Lib Dems Treasury spokesperson. Many messages coming in on that, and I will return to them very shortly, to that question of how much of this is in your life and what do you want to say about it? But I did tell you we would be hearing from Julia Bradbury.

Many of you, of course, will know from her television work, also, of course, from Countryfile. But after three separate assessments, the television presenter has been told she has breast cancer and is having emergency surgery next month to have her left breast removed. She's only just told her family and friends. And in her first broadcast interview, Julia joins me now.

Julia, good morning. Morning, Emma. Good interview, Julia joins me now. Julia, good morning. Morning, Emma. Good morning, all the Woman's Hour listeners. Thank you so much for feeling like you can talk to us, I should say, first of all. Well, no better place really to talk about breast cancer and this kind of issue than with you and with Woman's Hour. I should say also, very shortly, we'll be talking to the breast surgeon, Liz O'Riordan, around the issue and the disease, a disease, of course, that affects one in eight women.

But to come to your story, Julia, I mentioned three separate assessments. Tell us more. Yeah. So if I give you a sort of a quick rundown, about a year ago, I noticed a lump in my breast. And we then I was away on a work trip. I came back and then we all went into lockdown. And I admit that I was a little bit sloppy. And it took me probably another month before I spoke to my GP, who's known me since I was 18. And we have a very good relationship. And we did our first Zoom sort of diagnosis. And I told him about the lump. And

he managed to get me in to see somebody during lockdown because the NHS workers and the private sector were cooperating together. So it was possible to see people in emergency situations. And I think that's an important thing to get out there. Fast forward a year, I still had the lump and I had been told after that first mammogram that I had something called microcysts and they probably wouldn't develop into much

or into anything and not to worry, but to keep an eye on them and to have another mammogram and another test a year later a physical examination which I did I had it on a to-do list and it got to the bottom of that to-do list and I went for my follow-up mammogram which I insisted on having it was busy we'd just come out of lockdown there weren't many slots available. So I really pushed. And I said that I had some pain now that I'd developed in my lump. And when I pressed the lump, I could feel this pain. And that was the change. The lump itself hadn't changed. I'd been physically examining myself throughout the year. I couldn't notice any

other physical change apart from that pain. And when I mentioned the pain, I was then advanced and I managed to get that mammogram, that second mammogram and that imaging test straight away. And I saw the same person, which is, I think, when you see the same person in medical care, that's always reassuring. And I had a second mammogram and another physical examination and an ultrasound. And my medical professional said he thought everything looked clear. It didn't appear to be there didn't appear to be any changes. He didn't pick anything up in the physical examination or in the ultrasound. So I walked away from that second mammogram and that second sort of examination,

feeling fairly confident that we were keeping an eye on this, but everything was OK. And as a secondary part of that meeting, I had a second consultation with my actual consult that was four or five weeks after that second mammogram because he was too busy and couldn't see me immediately after that mammogram. And that was after I came back from a family holiday. And I almost cancelled that meeting because I'd had this sort of all clear, if you like, or it looks OK. And my sister was with me that day and insisted that we go. And she waited for me outside. And I just popped upstairs to see my consultant.

We had a chat about the summer. We talked about COVID. And then he said, look, let me just give you another physical examination while you're here. And I popped up onto his table and immediately he noticed something that he didn't like. And he pointed to a tiny, tiny little pinprick of a shadow on the imaging screen. And he said, I don't like the look of that. Can we get you back down to radiology? Can can you come today or tomorrow can we go and work out what that is and I said yes of course my sister was downstairs she was waiting for me there was no rush and I walked straight away again a slot became free I was lucky he called straight

through and there was a there was a slot free if I went straight away which of course I did and I walked there and I walked up the eight steps and I got to this same imaging department and they discovered this tiny tiny lump now that had obviously been there several weeks before but it had been missed somehow and it was only this second examination and a new pair of eyes and hands on me that picked up something very, very small. And within minutes, I was lying on my side and I was having a biopsy. And people who have had biopsies will know that they're not particularly pleasant. They're not pleasant affairs. They sort of hack into you. They cut bits of tissue out of you. And that's when I knew that I was probably on a different path. Were you actually told there and then? He, I was pretty much, yes,

because my consult had said, if you agree with what I think I have seen, will you go ahead with a biopsy, please, and let us get it off to the lab as soon as possible to confirm what I think is the case. So yes, I, once that next stage of the process happened, obviously now something had been discovered

that my consult, he was unhappy with. I know this must have been a blur in some ways and it was happening from a different place that you thought you were going into and then something else completely happened. But how did that make you feel? Or when did you take in the news that you had breast cancer well it wasn't confirmed at that stage obviously and it was still everything the tissue was going off to to uh to the to the labs to for the biopsy results to come back but that was the first moment i felt sadness and fear um

because everything just changed so quickly and And of course, that's what happens with cancer. Suddenly, your life changes and there is this glimmer of something that the first thing you think about is death and the worst possible scenario because that's what you think about. I can already hear how emotional that is, making you think about that moment and that beginning. Yeah, it's anybody who has been through, and there are millions of women out there who are going through this right now

and who have been through this, will know that you can't help but feel fear. That's the first thing that you feel. And I'm somebody who, I'm very pragmatic and I'm very positive and I'm now sort of taking every step at a time and I am very positive but human instinct is to protect yourself and of course my children. The first thing I thought about was my children. How did you tell them? I told them we wanted to wait to tell the children because they were just starting school, they had important things coming up in their lives.

They're young. I have twin girls who are six and I have a boy who's 10. We wanted them to get through that first big week of school for them and get themselves, get themselves into a steady place and see all their friends and get all of that excitement through and make sure that they were in a good place. And then I made the decision as well that I would have to go public with this news because of my work. This was another layer of complexity to sort of deal with. I couldn't have kept it a secret because I would have had to have told certain people in my work that I couldn't carry on with commitments. There were certain bits of filming I wouldn't be able to do. I'm potentially doing some work at COP26, which I'm very passionate about that I might not be able to do.

And you don't want to be a flaky person and sort of leave people dangling. So you have to be honest with them. And you know what this industry is like. You tell your best friend who could be a makeup lady or a makeup person or a producer, and then they will tell their husbands or their wives and that's absolutely fine you don't want people to keep these kinds of things but then their husbands or the wives could be another producer who works on another show another show

and before you know it in this industry it's the quiet secret that Julia Bradbury's got breast cancer and isn't telling everybody so it it seemed the right thing to do to do an interview with my friend the journalist Sarah, who I knew would do a good interview and get the facts out there that I wanted to get out there. Which was in the, just for people who don't know, was in the newspapers yesterday. And this is, as I say, your first broadcast interview, but you spoke in print to the Mail on Sunday journalist. And I know that the reason you've come on to that is because I asked about telling your children. So you obviously had to do that before you got to that interview.

And what was that conversation like for anybody who's listening who's scared to do it? You have to, you've got to tell them because you're going to go through something enormous. People talk to you all the time. The word cancer will be heard in their house. And it's important to bring that up to them. I'm very lucky. I have two living examples of people who got through cancer in my family. And it's my mother and my father.

My mother had colon cancer and my father had prostate cancer. They were the living examples that I could give to my children. I would advise people to pick the right moment. I would say, do be as honest as you can, but don't frighten them. Tell them what you can and what you know. I knew I was going to have a big operation. I told them I was going to do that. I told them that it was cancer, but I told them there can be positive, there are positive outcomes. Your grandma and your grandfather are still here and mummy will get through this. I was going to say though, while you're having that chat,

how are you feeling about this? It was the hardest conversation that I've ever had to have in my life. And I really had to steal myself and try not to cry and to be strong but show them that you're vulnerable as well. And one of my little girls said, can we still hug you, mummy? And I said, of course you can. I'll need your hugs more than ever yes I know I'm going to give you a minute to just regroup if I can and maybe have a bit of water and bring in Liz at this point yes the fantastic Liz who will give you very good medical advice about this and that's

why I'm talking to you, not because I want sympathy, but because I want people to get checked. I want people to go. I want women, if you feel uncertain about something, push for a diagnosis, push to get checked. And Liz, the wonderful Liz, will tell you exactly how to check yourself and what to look for.

And there are so many different kinds of breast cancer. That's the other thing to remember. It's complicated. Yes. And also, I was going to say, Liz, just before I come to you, Jeanette says to you, we're getting lots of messages, Julia, for you. I'm so sorry to hear this, Julia. I don't know whether this will help, but I prefer to think about it as my body having a cancer or cancers rather than I have cancer. Just help me have faith that I was always bigger and more than the cancer, which I wanted to share with you from Jeanette. Hello, Liz. For people listening to this, what is the information, the vital information you want to get across on Women's Hour this morning about the way that we can be as sure as we can about our breasts and our health?

I think the most important thing is for women to check their breasts regularly and to be taught how to do it properly and I was a consultant breast surgeon and I didn't do it. I honestly didn't think I could get breast cancer and then I got it when I was 40 and it came back when I was 43 and I'll put my hands up. Most of us do it when there's a celebrity like Julia, you check your breasts and you forget. I think that's really, really important. There's a lot of stuff in the media about young women getting breast cancer, and actually it is still really rare. Only 4% of all cases happen under the age of 40. It's much more common in women in their 70s and 80s, but we hear about it because it's on the media. But it can still happen the older you get. And I think if you get called to have a mammogram,

take it up. It's every three years from the age of 50 to 70. if you get called to have a mammogram take it up it's every three years from the age of 50 to 70 and you can still self-refer after the age of 70 because breast cancer doesn't stop at that age I think it's just being breast aware and just being sensible I think and in light of what Julia was saying around the mammogram not showing an issue at first anyone who's concerned having heard that, what would you say? So mammograms are the best thing we have and they are pretty damn good, but they do miss about one in two and a half thousand cancers. Some women have very dense breasts and mammograms work by picking up a white cancer on a black background. And if you have dense breasts because of the

hormones at the time of the menopause, your breasts look white. And it's hard to see a white cancer on a white breast. There's also a type of cancer called lobular cancer that grows in sheets and not a lump. So that can be missed. And sometimes about three in a thousand women who have a mammogram have a cancer that comes between mammograms. And it either was there, but it was very subtle. No one knew or it was missed because we're all human and we make mistakes. But for most women, the mammograms are actually really accurate. And the whole point of breast screening is to pick a cancer up so more women can avoid a mastectomy and hopefully avoid chemotherapy.

And they do save lives. In terms of the context that we're talking in as well, just at the moment, face-to-face GP appointments have dropped. Some figures have it from 80% pre-pandemic to 57% it's been put at in July. A lot of people very concerned about things being missed. What do you have to say about that? I think most GPs are fantastic at referring every woman with any breast symptoms straight to a breast clinic. 95% of the women I saw as a surgeon didn't have cancer. They're just the worried world. But they need to see me.

They need to have a mammogram scan to check. And a lot of GPs can often just have a phone conversation, say, you've got a breast lump. I'll send you up. And most breast clinics have been running, often in the private parts of hospitals, because they're clean and they're COVID-free. If you're worried and you find a lump and it's still there in a couple of weeks, just contact your GP. Some GPs will fob you off. There aren't many.

We're all human. We all make mistakes. We think I'm sure it's going to be nothing. So it is trust yourself. But on the whole, every GP I've worked with has been fantastic at just sending women in because they know even I as a surgeon am going to miss cancers. None of us are 100% accurate.

Liz Arudan, thank you very much for that. I should say on the Women's Hour website, we will share all the relevant links and information, especially around how to check your breasts. We actually had this conversation in light of the news of Sarah Harding's death only a couple of weeks ago. So that's also available on BBC Sounds, that discussion that we had with two women living with cancer at the moment.

Julia, this is where you find yourself at the moment. I know you've got your surgery, I believe, booked for a few weeks time. How are you feeling about that? Yes, my surgery is booked for October. I should just say my mum was listening to this interview and she just came up to give me a hug. I can see on the Zoom video she's put her arm around you. Hello. So surgery is coming up in a few weeks. Obviously it's a huge, huge thing that we women go through. To lose a breast, to lose two breasts is a massive trauma to our emotional state and I'm going to spend the next few weeks preparing myself

physically and mentally and emotionally for that. And I will share anything that I think is helpful and useful to other women out there along the way. But obviously, my main focus over the next few weeks is going to be concentrating on me and how I'm going to get through this. I will be seeing a counsellor. I will be taking as much advice and as help as I can possibly get. And people like Liz are a fantastic example. She's a very, very strong woman who's been through this herself. And there's a lot of help out there. And I would say to people who are frightened and think something's been missed, the charities out there are amazing.

The support out there is amazing. And I know there are women who are frightened to go because they're frightened of the diagnosis. But I would much rather be talking to you now about the possibility of losing a breast and living for my children and being here to talk to you again in a year's time than not to have gone. And for the situation to have been much, much worse. So I urge women to trust your body and get checked. Messages here, Julia. One saying, Julia, after reading about your story in the mail, this is a message from someone who calls themselves Wicked Welsh on Twitter, I've decided to check my breasts. Suffice to say, I have found a lump and I'm going to see my GP.

Thank you, with some kisses. And another message here, I'm still here 22 years later after chemo and radiotherapy for breast cancer. It's a journey I never wanted to go on, but I'm not sorry as I did. And it changed my life for the better. I am thinking of you, Julia, reads that message. Julia, I'm thinking of you too. Thank you so much for coming on.

And, you know, your pictures, if people do follow you on social media, as well as your TV, are always full of beautiful green scapes and nature, apart from when you're picking up the litter, where that looks a bit dirty. And I hope you can continue to find the solace in the natural world that you love and promote so well. I will. Thank you very much, Emma. Thank you for talking to me. Julia Bradbury there. Your message is also still coming in, to which again, I will return and I've not forgotten if I can, I'll go back to some of the messages that we were talking about with our first discussion around transgender issues and rights with regards to the political parties in this country.

But just to go to the politics of another country, because in a matter of days, the woman who has been seen as the de facto leader of the European Union for almost two decades will be standing down. Angela Merkel has been variously described as the Iron Chancellor in a nod to Britain's own Iron Lady, Margaret Thatcher, also has latterly become known as Mutti. She's the matriarch of Germany with a reputation, for some,

for sorting things out. The federal elections begin this Sunday. Merkel's successor will be determined by the results. I'm joined now in the studio by the journalist Stephanie Boltson from Die Welt and on the line from Berlin by Margaret Heckler, who's written a biography of the Chancellor. Welcome to you both. Stephanie, just to start with that muddy point for a moment. Angela Merkel herself doesn't have children, but do we always have to refer to or get to women in some way in politics as mothers as well? I'm very struck. My first guest this morning, a politician, also wanted to bring up the fact she is a mother. Angela Merkel, as you say, she didn't have children.

She never made this an issue, unlike some politicians here. We know Theresa May openly talked about it. Nicola Sturgeon talked about why she didn't have children. Angela Merkel, while she has this title of being Mutti, is not really seen in that sense of a woman Mutti, but the Mutti of the nation, because she has seen the country and actually Europe through some pretty tough crises from the Euro crisis, the refugee crisis, and then, of course, COVID. And she was always there.

And in a way, someone said she is the chancellor for so long, despite being a woman, which I think is one of the key sentences. Margaret, would you agree with that? And how do you think the history books are going to see Angela Merkel? Yeah, hello. Thanks for having me. And also hello to Stephanie. We've been working together all over a decade ago. So it's really nice to hear her here on the Woman's Hour. Yeah, I would totally agree with her assessment. And the epithet Mutti, that just doesn't fit at all. I think some malicious men have invented it to denigrate her, basically. You know, hardly any woman could be more from a Mutti than Angela Merkel. She's totally intellectual. She always thinks things through. She's not very emotional in politics. Personally, yes, but not in politics. And basically, I think her legacy will be that she brought Germany wealth through this decade,

through these 16 years, where so many countries have experienced so many crises. And, you know, Germany has been through it fairly well, and the citizens' wealth has improved for most of them. And so that's probably going to be her legacy. And in terms of the line slightly broke up there, but Stephanie, just to pick up that theme about Merkel-ish, the pragmatism people refer to a lot and the ability to change tack when needed. Do you think people can say it's been a good tenure? Because, of course, some would say, for instance, the what she did with taking the refugees in from Syria. Let's talk a bit about that when she said we can do this. That was a real high point for some people. They didn't know what to think for others. And it also stirred up the right, the far right.

Yes, exactly. So some people will look back and say without Angela Merkel's decision, especially in 2015, to open the border and let more than one million refugees into Germany, the AfD, the Alternative für Deutschland, which is a right wing xenophobic party, wouldn't have been so successful. So in 2017, the last election, it became the biggest opposition party in the Bundestag. So certainly under Angela Merkel, politics in Germany have become more extreme. But then again, look at your own country, it has also become far more extreme on the left and on the right. So in that case, in that sense, Germany is just part of the trend, if I may say. What is she like in person, Margaret? Because I was also hearing that there's a ruthlessness to her that people might not associate with her. Well, but see, you wouldn't ask that for a man

if you talk about a male leader. You know, if you want to become chancellor, if you want to become prime minister, you have to, you know, you have to do what you have to do to come there. So with a woman, we call that ruthless. Why do we do that? You know, with Boris Johnson, we would never guess what he is. He's been called ruthless, believe me.

That has been a word people use. But what I meant was she gets painted, perhaps sometimes wrongly, as a very calm figure who's going through her leadership with her tight circle around her, fully in control at all times. And I wonder if there are differences that we don't see when you've known her or met her. Well, the tight circle that you just mentioned is very important because it's true. She had two women around her for all this time. And that's very important because in their inner circle, they really talk very openly about all things on eye level. And it's not like, you know, one the chancellor, the other is the office manager, but they really talk on eye level.

And that's very important because if you want to stay in power for such a long time, you have to have people around you who really tell you the truth. Because the trappings of power basically is that people don't tell you the truth anymore. And then if you are susceptible to flattery, then you know, you really are on a slippery path. And that's not Angela Merkel. She's very, very, because she's so intellectual and so intellectually controlled, she really also knows to sort of step beside herself and, you know, look,

what's going on here? And that she's not susceptible to flattery has helped her to stay in power for such a long time. And also this very tight-knit circle where they really can discuss freely where nothing leaves their circle.

And that's very important for, you know, being re-elected four times now. And that loyalty. Those people who speak truth to you also stay with you on the journey. Exactly. And keep going. Some people will be wanting to know, Stephanie, what she's actually done for women. What's the record like, whether it's in politics and representation, but also for women's lives in Germany? Very little, very little. And that's the surprising thing. Of course, people will think

Germany had a woman chancellor for 16 years and things for women must actually have become better. In fact, if you look at the statistics, they have become worse. So if you look at the number of women in top jobs, they have shrunk. If you look at the number of women in top jobs, they have shrunk. If you look at the number of MPs, Germany is bottom in the ranking in Europe. So very little. One thing if I, as a mother and a woman, might name is a big improvement in terms of money you get when you have a child and the protection you have to go back into your job.

And also fathers actually getting, we call it the parental money. So you can share it between the partners. And in my environment, my male colleagues, now all of them, when they have children, they go for six months on paternal leave. And that's something that is more a cultural change. But then again, it wasn't really Angela Merkel. It was her ministers.

I think it was also the zeitgeist, how our societies are changing and more open to equality between women and men and also the role of having children and bringing them up together. So, again, that really wasn't Angela Merkel. But then again, I think that's part of her secret because there's nothing that really defines her. She's neither too evil nor too male nor too sexy. If anything, in Brussels, she had the reputation of being Madame No. She would always say no, which the Germans liked because they thought she was protecting their interests.

So she managed to straddle that massive tension between giving to Europe what Europe needed in the crisis, but also giving at home the sense to people that she wasn't selling out Germany. Do you agree with that, Margaret? Well, to a certain point, but then, you know, just her example, being there as a chancellor, you know, there are little girls in Germany and even teenagers and even young women in Germany who've never seen anything else but a female chancellor. So just being there, of course, is saying every woman can become a chancellor.

Well, you know, women too can become a chancellor and they can stay there. But I would agree in terms of numbers, Germany is not very good and the situation for women has worsened. There are less female members of parliament and all that. But, you know, you have to look back to where she comes from. She comes from East Germany. Feminism in East Germany was not really a discussion point.

It's totally different than in the West. She was a physicist, a scientist. So in a way, for her, she couldn't even understand the discussion in the West. She was a physicist, a scientist. So in a way, for her, it was not, she couldn't even understand the discussion in the West. So basically, she had to, it took her years to even understand what the West German women were talking about. Because, you know, in East Germany, there was childcare, you know, women did continue to work after giving birth. And that's a big part of her identity, the East German side of it,

and perhaps how she had come to politics and come to that global stage. Margaret Heckler, thank you so much, who's written a biography of the Chancellor. And Stephanie Bolton from Die Welt, thank you to you, ahead of Angela Merkel finishing that 16-year reign, as some would say.

And as you say, very striking to think there are little girls and boys who've grown up not knowing anyone else in power in Germany. Let me tell you about Charlie Webster, a broadcaster and journalist who's covered some of the world's biggest sporting events. But there's one story she's never been able to tell. When she was 12, Charlie joined an all-girls elite running group in Sheffield, where she's from. Running became her passion, and it was at the track where she met some of her best friends. But it was also where Charlie was abused for years by her sports coach. And at the time, she didn't speak out about what her coach did to her. But after she left the group, she discovered her coach had been arrested, convicted, and sent to prison for 10 years.

Now she's made a documentary, a very powerful one, I have to say, I've already had the privilege of seeing it, called Nowhere to Run, Abused by Our Coach, which is going out this evening on BBC One at 10.35. Charlie, good morning. Morning, Emma. Thanks for having me on. I just want to send so much love to Julia as well. Well, she'll definitely, I'm sure, appreciate that.

Lots of people doing the same and that's very kind. Why did you decide to tell this story and go into this now? It's a really good question and it's something that I've definitely battled with a lot throughout my life as something to not tell people about to push behind me push from me, because I felt so much shame, but it dominated me no matter how much I pushed it away. And it kind of becomes very much the psyche of who you are. And just there's always an underlying feeling of worthlessness. And I worked actually with Matt Lawton at the Times on an article to try and raise awareness of some of the abuse in UK athletics and to cut a long story short I got an email from somebody who I didn't recognize their name and it turns out it was the mother of one of my best friends that I used to run with in the running club telling me

about how devastatingly impacted she is and she describes it as a life sentence for her daughter and for herself and then I went on this journey to try and find some of the people that I ran with who as you described in your intro Emma were my best friends they were like my family and my life and I decided to film it and now it's become a documentary and just a point on that the reason why I made it wasn't wasn't really about us and it was about using our story to hopefully speak to other survivors other victims to help understand their own truth um whatever whatever that may be and their own feelings because I think I felt very alone in it and I think sometimes as a victim and survivor you can really internalize it and with this documentary I hope it shows that

how you feel is normal because you've been through a horrific trauma but actually it sounds a cliche but I don't want it to just impact one person I actually want it to make a change because in the documentary I found a lot of failings that are happening right now And I'm really aggrieved that literally nothing has changed. It's a wonderful film, if I could put it like that, because it's so powerful from you and the girls, the women, there were children, of course, then, what you went through. But it's also got a lot of journalism in there about the points that haven't changed.

You know, for instance, about coaches not being struck off forever if they're found to have sexually abused children, girls and boys, we should say. But and those campaigning points, I know you'll keep being vociferous on. But just to your story, what I found so powerful, one of the bits I found really powerful and so upsetting. I'm a very similar age to you. So play Lauryn Hill in the background, all of that, that was my soundtrack as well. But apart from that, was that... I pushed to get that song on. I was so happy with that. But apart from that, I couldn't believe how this experience had driven you all apart so you hadn't realized it but he had been very clever and powerful in in taking you off one by one and there were various things that happened again well people can watch the documentary to each of you and it alienated you as a as a group of of girlfriends of of kids

together and there's sort of the cleverness of that and the power of an abuser. That's what they do. And that's why they not just keep a victim quiet, but they make the victim feel like it's entirely them. And it's very confusing as well. Like I have had a journalist say to me, well, how did you not know? I was like, okay, let's go back to this

because there was so much manipulation like you said we and what's so ironic is and you said you've seen the film I'm thanks for your comments but there's some archive that we use that I managed to find from the whole VHS where we're on this training camp in Spain and we're joking messing about playing pranks on each other but at the same time I was being abused on that camp and I know at least two other people were abused on that camp and we were so close so the coach was so so insidious so manipulative to be able to split that tightness of friendship and connectivity that we had we told each other everything yet we never told each other

what was going on and the coach used to like put his arm around us take us off and one week I'd be the favorite the next week I'd be the worst and he'd actually actively put his arm around somebody else and then turn to me and snigger at me and give me a dirty look and then would swap us out and when we all when we all went back to where I went to find some of the girls women now it was something that we really discussed and we were like oh my gosh look at what he used to do to us and within the group some of the girls were sexually abused some not but we were all bullied and emotionally abused and all made to feel like you know we weren't enough and that's how he did it and actually

like that's how when he was convicted and when I left the group none of us ever spoke again I thought it was just me and that made me feel bad because I thought well you know do they when I went in search for them I thought oh my god are they going to speak to me they do they think I'm a horrible person and you kind of like question yourself and it's crazy really um because you mentioned like the guilt but then when I went back to speak to them I found out nobody ever spoke again and he didn't just just isolate us during the training group he isolated us after so we were actually alone in our own trauma and we could have actually connected afterwards to heal so it wasn't just about him getting put away behind bars number one

because so that he wouldn't abuse anybody else because this was a long long history I found out that it was way before I even joined the group but actually we could have recovered through each other because ultimately abuse happens through human connection which then you struggle with human connection after we could have healed through human connection which has taken us 20 years later which also has been robbed. It's called Nowhere to Run. Charlie Webster's written it, created it, abused by our coach. Goes out this evening. Of course, if you can't catch it live, catch it on the iPlayer.

It's incredibly powerful. I commend you, Charlie. Thank you very much for coming on. Thank you. We were talking right at the beginning about the politics of trans rights and self-ID. A message here. I'm 56, biologically female,

cis woman, since don't understand this. Trans women, if they don't want or can't have surgery, I don't care if they're in my changing room or loo. If men hijack this for sexual predatory purposes, that's a problem with men, not trans women. And another one here that says, I will never vote for the Lib Dems, Greens, SNP or Labour or any party that allows self-ID.

It's madness. This issue really matters to people. Thank you for your views today. I'll be back with you tomorrow at 10. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Thank you so much for your time. Join us again for the next one. I'm Sarah Trelevan, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know.

It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.