Woman's Hour - Julia Bradbury, Porn in Parliament, Female Life of Pi

Episode Date: April 28, 2022

The presenter Julia Bradbury talks to Emma about her new documentary Breast Cancer and Me. Conservative Party Whips are conducting an investigation after two female MPs say they witnessed a colleague watching porn on his mobile phone in the House of Commons. The Attorney General Suella Braverman joined Emma, along with the feminist and activist Dr Helen Mott who's been involved in advising parliament in it's cultures of sexism and violence against women. Music journalist Jude Rogers has written a book, The Sound of Being Human, part memoir, part exploration of how music is interwoven into our lives from before birth to beyond the grave. She joins Emma to talk about the power of music.The ‘Homes for Ukraine’ scheme was introduced last month by the Government in an attempt to encourage UK citizens to sponsor Ukrainians who are fleeing the war. Judith Hutchinson is one such sponsor and has supported Oksana Melashchuk, a Ukrainian citizen, and her two children. Last week she drove them from Romania to Calais. A month on and Oksana still awaits her visa despite her children having been issued them, meaning she can't enter the UK -- she's currently waiting in Dunkirk. Emma spoke to Judith.Payal Mistry has made history as the first woman to play the role of Pi in the West End production of Life of Pi. Payal usually plays the role of Rani, Pi’s sister, but understudies the title role. She joins Emma to discuss the experience and why she thinks more shows should cast both men and women as understudies.Presenter: Emma Barnett Producer: Emma Pearce

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Emma Barnett and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Sometimes there's a piece of news that the news is almost too polite for. I don't know about you, but when I heard yesterday that a male Conservative MP was accused of openly watching porn on his phone in the House of Commons, I didn't quite know what to do or say. But here I am now, on the radio, talking to you, trying to figure this out. Why does someone watch porn in a public place,

often when they know others can see? Apart from the sheer brazenness of it, and also in this case, how it made the two female MPs feel in their workplace, which also, of course, happens to be the place where laws are made in this country for the rest of us. I don't get it. And it's not just happening in the hallowed halls of Westminster. People, and largely it's men, are openly watching porn on their phones, on buses, trains, in waiting rooms. What's going on? I remember sitting next to a man on a bus a few years ago who was watching porn on their phones, on buses, trains, in waiting rooms. What's going on? I remember sitting next to a man on a bus a few years ago who was watching porn on his phone.

Early evening, no headphones. I was so shocked I didn't know what to say. But I said nothing. Luckily, it was my stop next. Interestingly, if that's the right word, the male MP accused of this is thought to have been aware that the woman who had reported this, one of the women, had seen, he had seen that she'd been watching and he carried on watching.

Has this happened to you? Has someone watched porn in public next to you or near you and you were aware of it? What was your reaction? What did you do? What did you say? What did you think? And why do you think this is happening in the first place? What did you do? What did you say? What did you think? And why do you think this is happening in the first place? What's behind it, even in the House of Commons, as has been alleged? Text me here at Woman's Hour on 84844. We're not too polite to hear what you have to say. Say what you think on this. Say some of your experiences. Say what you think perhaps is behind this. I'm trying to fathom it today and I need your help. On social media, we're at BBC Woman's Hour or email me through the Women's Hour website. Also coming up on today's programme,

the TV presenter Julia Bradbury is back. She was on the programme last September having just been diagnosed with breast cancer. Many of you got in touch off the back of that conversation. Well, a lot has happened since. We're going to catch up with Julia. And I'll be talking to a woman trying to get another woman and her two children safely over from Ukraine to her home here in the UK. Trying and failing so far. We will hear some of their journey. But watching pornography from the mother of parliaments, the House of Commons, is a phrase you probably never expected to hear. But apparently that is what's happened or certainly what's been alleged.

And it's currently being investigated by the whips, the Conservative Party whips, after two female Tory MPs, one of whom is meant to be a cabinet minister, said that they witnessed a colleague watching porn on his mobile phone in the chamber. Well, I'm joined now by a member of the cabinet, Suella Braverman, Attorney General for England and Wales, a.k Wales, aka the government's chief law officer. And shortly, I'll be talking to the feminist and activist Dr Helen Mott, who's been involved in advising Parliament in its cultures of sexism and work around violence against women.

Suella, good morning. Morning, Emma. Thank you for joining us today. Can I start by asking for your reaction to this? Oh, like you, like everybody, I think I'm shocked and appalled. I actually, I'm not aware of the details, but over the last 24 hours, I keep running through my mind how and why someone would be so brazen, as you say, so reckless, so stupid, so appallingly badly behaved to be watching porn in the workplace, in broad daylight, in the presence of colleagues. What would possess them is totally unacceptable.

I know you say you don't know the detail, but this has been now since there was a meeting, as I understand it, of Conservative MPs, actually a meeting about improving gender equality and the way that women and their lives are in the workplace and specifically in the Conservative Party. Do you know who this is, who it's alleged to be? I don't know who it is, no. I didn't know if that had emerged because Baroness Nicky Morgan spoke to the Today programme, of course, the former Education Secretary, former Conservative MP this morning and said she was aware of who it was. But you don't know that? No, no, I wasn't in the meeting. I haven't spoken to the female colleagues of mine who raised the concern. I'm, you know, I'm coming to it really reading, reading what I've seen in the papers and watching television and speaking to a few colleagues in Parliament.

But it's all hearsay really for me. But have to say my you know it is shocking it's appalling and i'm very glad that the chief whip has now referred it to the uh the independent uh complaints and grievance process and that will uh a procedure will take place an investigation will take place and i hope that if this is proven to be true then we will see most severe reprimand what is a severe reprimand well I think that we would really need to see a situation where the whip should be removed. I'm ashamed that this person is carrying the Conservative rosette. And I think they really do need to be subject to a recall and be no longer holding their privileged position as a member of Parliament. So it's not just the whip, you would like them to no longer be a Conservative MP? Personally, that would be my preference. But I don't want to pre-judge any outcome,

there's a due process that needs to take place. Of course, you are the government's chief law officer. Can I just play you this from Baroness Nicky Morgan talking to my colleagues on the Today programme? One of the MPs who revealed that they had seen this felt that she was deliberately being made to feel uncomfortable. And it was clearly something that she felt unable to report, you know, at that moment. That's another detail with Nikki having, it seems, spoken to one of the women who's made this accusation. That's very important, isn't it, to understand?

Because when you are trying to fathom why somebody would do this, there does seem from what she's just said to be some form of control going on. And we've just received a message saying doing this next to a woman is a form of sexual assault. What do you make of that? Well, I think that there is definitely something in that. I mean, sexual misconduct includes a range of behaviours from sexual harassment, stalking, voyeurism, any kind of non-consensual behaviour which has a purpose to threaten, intimidate, undermine, humiliate or coerce another person. And, you know, it's a broad range. And, you know, this, to my mind, does fall within the category of sexual misconduct. You know, I think that it's absolutely reprehensible. And the group of women that we're talking about from this meeting, it's largely anonymous. And in this case, we don't know who the women are who've reported this, one of whom is reported to be a member of the cabinet, actually. But why do you think female MPs are so afraid to speak out on this under their own name?

Well, I mean, I think that we I wouldn't say that that there is a my personal experience is that there is a tale of two parliaments in many ways. And parliament is like another workplace. My personal experience, I've been a member of parliament now for nearly seven years. I've been in the Conservative Party and in politics for 20 years. My personal experience, I have to say, is that on no occasion have I been made to feel uncomfortable. And all the men that I've worked with have been respectful, courteous and supportive. There is, however, a very small minority of men, and it is men who fall short. And there are some bad apples who are out of order, who behave like animals and are bringing Parliament into disrepute, to be honest.

So I don't think we should be saying there's a pervasive culture. That's not my experience. There are certain individuals who are behaving in an unacceptable way. I think it's very good that we have now an independent process instigated by Dame Andrea Ledison. It's very robust. It's transparent. It has a lot of rigour and it will provide an avenue of redress for complainants. You say it's a small number, but you just talked about that complaints process. There are 56 MPs who have been referred to this scheme and three members of the cabinet being investigated for sexual misconduct. You're the party of government, you sit in that cabinet, around that table. That's not a small number, 56, and also three being around the cabinet table being investigated. What's your response to that? Well, I think there's a very big difference between investigations and actually proven complaints. No, no, of course. But my point

to you is you've just made the very good point about there's now a process and it's not a process being underutilised is my point. Well, we've got 50. Yes, you're right. It's been reported that there's been 56 complaints. That is obviously any complaint is too high. That is a minority of the number of men in Parliament, the number of people in Parliament, small minority i would i would argue it's not reflective of the uh the consensus or the majority so i say we do have a minority of people who are behaving in an unacceptable way we've got a rigorous and robust process to meet the needs of complainants i'm very glad it's being used that is the forum within which these matters should be explored in a safe and rigorous way. And I'm you know, I have confidence in that process. I know it's still a minority and it's not it's not about equivalent numbers.

It's just when it's members of parliament. These are people that we have elected to represent us. They should be the very best. You are in charge of making laws for us. Do you not actually think it seems quite high in relation to the privilege of the position? Well, as I say, I'm going by my personal experience, which is extensive. 20 years in politics, now seven years as an MP. And I should also say you know broadly I was for 10 years a barrister and at the bar again my my experience with male colleagues was nothing but

positive so um my personal experience informs my view I also look at the numbers 56 out of 650 MPs is a minority and 56 out of the number of male MPs is a minority but I also think that's actually more profound issue and you do raise a good point. Why in Parliament? This is a shame for our country. I think this is something that does happen in many, if not all workplaces, where a small minority of men,

and it is men who are behaving in an unacceptable way. But I think that's actually a more worrying symptom of our society and our culture. how have we got to a place in our society where watching pornography on the tube as you say in public in front of children in parliament in the workplace has become somehow normalized for some people and so accessible and one of the biggest symptoms of that is now we've seen very young children accessing pornography in primary schools which sickens me and I think actually we've seen very young children accessing pornography in primary schools which sickens me and I think actually we've got to look more profoundly at the coarsening

of behavior in our culture and some of the mixed messages that we're sending our children and our professionals actually on the one hand we've got women saying it's my right to post photos of myself wearing underwear it's empowering for me to pose naked online, and that's my right as a woman. So don't be so prudish to curb my liberty. And on the other hand, we are denouncing the very permissiveness that's enabling that. So I think actually as a society, we've got to take this moment

to reflect on what are we doing to actually uh standards of behavior it whether that's on the tube in front of children in parliament or in public the problem doesn't start in parliament it actually ends up there and it starts in wider society that's where we need to start discussing i don't think anyone's basic moral standards and but basic basic moral standards of public life again you know what i'm trying to say to you is, and I don't think many people would, maybe they disagree with certain parts of that. And perhaps when we have more time, we can explore that bit more together, Suella. But I do think there's something very, very specific about the place where the laws are made. This has happened. you i know you've gone you know you can only talk about your own personal experience but the number of messages i'm getting right now from people who have sat next to or been in the vicinity of and so far it seems to only be men who have watched porn in public is an enormous amount of response here so it's obviously a a major problem just finally from the legal perspective you've talked about what you think should happen to that individual MP if it's proven to be the case. What is your legal position if you're sat next to somebody

on a train or on a bus and they're watching porn? What can you do? What should you do? Well, I mean, if you consider that to be humiliating, intimidating, threatening, then you should definitely make a complaint. And I think that there are avenues in which we can take action. This should not be acceptable, normal behaviour. Women do have a right to feel safe in our society, safe in the workplace. And we need to ensure that more and more women feel safe. But I also think actually as broadcasters and those in the media, you have a responsibility, just as I do as a lawmaker, that we mustn't fall into the trap of demonising all men. This is a minority of men.

As I say, my personal experience is one of, you know, having been very well treated by male colleagues and male counterparts in the workplace. I think we've got to watch our language, watch the narrative, call it out like we are rightly on this occasion, take the appropriate action. People must report it when they see it in a public place. It's unacceptable. And they must, you know, people must face the appropriate sanctions. But we must be careful that this isn't about demonising all men. This isn't all men. This is a minority of, as I say, bad apples who are ruining it for everybody else. Has the Prime Minister said anything on this to you? No, he hasn't. But I know that, you know, the Prime Minister, if I were to speak to him about this, I'm sure he would be absolutely appalled by what he's heard.

In no way is this being condoned by anyone in Parliament or government. Sue Ella Braverman, Attorney General for England and Wales, aka the government's chief law officer, thank you. As I say, many messages, name, shame and sack about this particular case, reads one message. This man, whoever he was, was watching porn for the thrill, as is alleged, to intimidate his female colleagues for his pleasure, to get a hard-on, reads this message. I'm fed up with the bad apple

narrative. This behaviour is the same as some of those Met Police officers' WhatsApp sexual jokes. I sat next to a man on a train once watching porn on his laptop, ironically travelling back from working at the House of Commons. Just got up, moved past him, saying loudly, I wouldn't sit next to him, he's watching porn. Why are women

not outing these men immediately? If one was a cabinet minister, she has the power, Sorry, it's obviously not funny, but that's a very nice response. But as he was clicking on various women, I realised then he was viewing. Sorry, it's obviously not funny, but that's a very nice response. But as he was clicking on various women, I realised then he wasn't. I am so annoyed with myself that I didn't say anything. I think that's the thing. You know, when you're in the moment, what do you do?

Dr. Helen Mott, good morning to you. You've advised Parliament around the culture of sexism and violence against women. What do you think this is behind? What's behind this? Why somebody would do this? Good morning. Well, I think I hesitate to prejudge what lies in any individual man's brain. But I think it's pretty clear to me that, and as your listeners have been

pointing out, this is about willful violation of boundaries. And I think, you know, you hit the nail on the head earlier, Emma, when you said that's why it's so worrying that this is going on in the place where laws are made by people who are supposed to respect laws. And we've got something, I think, very wrong with our political system if we don't react very strongly when we find that somebody who is who's in this very powerful position is using that position to let's be frank to get off on violating boundaries and social norms that have been set in the very place where they're doing it so I think it's right to be very troubled by this, but I'm not at all shocked or surprised by it. Are you not? No, I'm not. And what you've started to say there is because you think high risk and the high power states is part of the appeal, is part of the

allure. Yeah. I mean, of course, I'm not saying for a minute that people who go into public life or who go into our seats of government do it because they have a problem with wanting to abuse power. A lot of people go into public service because they want to be public servants and they want to do the right thing. But we have to be realistic about this and we have to understand that there are plenty of things about political life which are attractive to people who get off on power difference. And if we acknowledge that, we should be working with it and making sure that we do work to transform those cultures in the knowledge, the expectation that certain kinds of people are likely to be attracted to those roles. And what's the appeal if you're on a bus or a train and you're not in a lawmaking chamber?

Yeah, you're still violating the boundaries of the people around you and it's still a really effective way of putting women in their place. And for you and what you know about this, what do you think can be done to stop this as a form of behaviour? We've got many examples, different examples coming in of where this has happened. Yeah, I mean, I advised on the Women and Equality Select Committee inquiry into public sexual harassment, if that's what we're talking about, if we're talking about, you know, why is it that men are feeling free to consume porn in public spaces and in the workplace. That's a cultural issue. There is work that needs to be done around transforming cultural norms.

We have to have better accountability. And as the minister said, you know, women should be able to report. I'm not clear at all that there are proper reporting mechanisms in place for when this happens to women. Let's say, for example, on public transport, let's say you're on a bus. Not everybody lives in London and uses the tube. Actually, Transport for London have done some really good work around public sexual harassment of women, which includes consumption of pornography on public transport. But more generally, other forms of public transport,

you don't see much evidence at all that this is either being taken seriously or that there are actually effective routes to complain. If I may, it just seemed from the Minister what she was saying is if you felt intimidated, then you could go forward. So that might be the part of it that you have to use. But I take your point that a lot of people, again, on these messages, don't know what to do, Which is part of the problem. And I think the minister was talking about intimidation

and feeling that hostility was being expressed. And that's the language of, you know, workplace sexual harassment. And so if we can come back to what happened or what has been reported to have happened there in Parliament, well, the Independent Complaints and Grievance Scheme covers that. You know, this is sexual misconduct. There's no doubt that this is sexual misconduct. It's a violation of the sexual misconduct policy

and should be treated as such within the independent... Although, of course, the question is, why should it be left up to the women seeing this to deal with it? Yeah, absolutely. This is not on women. This is on men. Dr. Helen Mott, thank you very much for your time and expertise, who's advised Parliament around some of these issues, but not quite this case as of yet. But of course, some of those schemes that she's helped set up

or advise on do cover it. Watching porn in public and being watched watching porn in public is probably all part of the sexual gratification i walked past nero's cafe nero's cafe to see a man watching porn on his laptop the screen was facing the street on holiday on the beach in broad daylight children everywhere i saw three men watching gay porn for all to see i tutted and one guy saw me and turned up the volume i worked in the houses of parliament for 15 years it's not just in one party and it's about men feeling powerful. It's about power, not sex. And so these messages continue. Please keep getting in touch. An enormous amount of you having had experience of being near

those who have watched porn in public and saying what you think it's all about as well and what's going on. 84844 is the number you need. Well, to take a break for a moment, shall we? Let's think a little bit about music and the soundtrack of our lives that we have chosen, not the ones that are being imposed upon us, perhaps, because my next guest is the music journalist Jude Rogers. Jude has travelled around the world interviewing, well, pretty much everyone in her field, from Adele, Dolly Parton, Paul McCartney, to Debbie, Harry, Bjork, Lady Gaga, Billie Eilish, the Pet Shop Boys, I could go on. Well, she's now written a book called The Sound of Being Human.

It's a part memoir, part exploration of how music is interwoven into our lives from before birth to beyond the grave, really. Good morning, Jude. Good morning. The opening story of your book is very powerful, and I actually read this excerpt before I got my hands on the whole book. And it's about the last time you saw your dad. And he was he was pretty young. And I wondered if we could start there to say why you began with that and the particular connection with music that memory gives you.

So whenever I think of music, the first thing I think about is a particular scene. It's January 1984 um I am looking at my dad in the front porch of our house he's off to hospital to have a hip operation and he asks me something very important which is a five-year-old girl I have to find out which is what the number one is going to be that week because he'll be in hospital very sadly he didn't make it out of hospital um and I never got to tell. So as I say in this book, this is me telling him that story and all the stories that came later. I talk about the flying pickets, Only You, which was the Christmas number one in 1983. Hearing it many years later when I was an adult, parent myself, Christmas shopping and how it just came out of a speaker's in the shop one evening and how it

absolutely floored me and transported me almost like Dorothy and the Wizard of Oz you know whipped up and taken away into this very different place with all the sensory information around me you know the bushes of my parents front garden you know the way my dad looked all this stuff and you know I thank you for your lovely introduction yeah I've been a journalist now for years love of music has continued into my professional life but I wanted to know you know beyond me just writing about music as a critic or as an interviewer why does music do this and so I decided to get my interview beret on and go off and interview neuroscientists and psychologists delve delve into anthropology, sociology, but do it in an accessible way around my story in a way that would hopefully help people think of their own stories.

And also the power, and I know you've cared about this for a long time, the power of memory and music and how, as you say, it just utterly can take you somewhere. Let's just have a listen to something that reminds you of your granny and it's Super Trooper. Let's just have a listen to something that reminds you of your granny and it's Super Trooper. Let's just have a blast of that. Super Trooper Beams are gonna blind me

But I won't feel blue Like I always do Cause somewhere in the crowd There's you I could keep playing more, but I want to hear why. What does that do to you? Oh, I've just started welling up, actually. It's my launch day today.

It's my son's eighth birthday. So I'm thinking a lot about family and all this stuff. That takes me to my grandparents' kitchen with this twin tub washing machine behind me in South Wales. It's my first memory, super trooper. My gran singing along to it with me. I think it's amazing how a song can do that for you.

And yeah, I find out about why that is. It's because our musical memories come from the same parts of our brain as the brain sections that tell us about our identity ourselves of self um there's been lots of really fascinating research done over the last 15 years that has pinned this down you know music isn't just us reacting to any sound like an animal it's processing in in some of the more evolved parts of our brain as well the bits

that make us human um you know it's funny superoper, years later, I worked on the Arbor Super Trooper exhibition in the Southbank Centre. I wrote a script for Jarvis Cocker, who was a teenage hero of mine. So hearing that song now, all those memories are wrapped up in it. And what's amazing, that song on that recording, it hasn't changed.

It's as it was when it was made in the studio, but we carry so many of the moments of our lives within these songs, and that's why they can be so comforting or exhilarating or reassuring did you worry about seeming cool when you wrote this and what music that you you like because you know isn't that a big thing especially as a music journalist you or you often feel that you've got to have some cred with what you street credit you know with what you actually say you like and how we even talk about music. Quite the opposite, actually, to be honest, Emma. I'm one of those journalists that rails against guilty pleasures, the notion of guilty pleasures. If you like it,

it's great. I, last night, finished making a playlist of all the songs in the book. There's 530 songs, 44 hours of it. I've just posted on Twitter today. Oh, I'd like that. I'd like that. I'm going to look that up. It goes from, you know, really, it goes from, you know, the French electronic composer Eliane Radigue to Boni M in two pages, which I'm really pleased about. I wanted it to be the celebration of eclecticism

and actually how music actually works on us. I really don't like the idea that, you know, music being a badge of cool is a bit of a teenage thing. And obviously we teenagers are a big part of our lives for music loving. We do still have a bit of that. You know, I love meeting a fellow R.E.M. fan or Kraftwerk fan bands that I love back then. But as you get a bit older, hopefully you grow out of that and you realize, you know, ABBA are brilliant. I did have a few years where I just thought I can't like Abba I can't like Madonna how ridiculous they're brilliant but I think it's that thing that people have and also because a lot of the time people's

music um understanding and the music picking up new music can stop when they're quite young and the ability to learn new music and hear new music can get more difficult as you get older but I think also the lens through which we hear about music and culture, you know, as a journalist about it, as a writer about it, do you think that's also had a sexist element to it? Because I know you've been concerned about who gets the front covers, how it's written about, how it's brought to us. Yeah, just to say that your last point,

you can still learn from music as you get older. That's one really interesting thing I found out. I think it's more of a social idea that we don't like music as much. You know, you carry on listening or play music as you get older. It still helps your brain. So no, no, no. But I meant you might not have any any new stuff that you've got into. We tend to freeze as well where we go back, we stopped and we go back and play the same thing again and again.

Yeah, I try and fight against that, obviously, but I do still go back to my teenage loves, definitely. But yes, I wonder about that, about the lens through which we read about music and musicians. Yeah, I wrote a piece about this the other day for the Quietus website. It's been an amazing year for books about music by women. There's amazing stuff out there. I list them in the piece. But yeah, there's still music magazine covers um with 20 names on two of which are women you know very few

women um there are great women who write for music magazines and in the music press of course and online cultures help that a lot more there's a lot bigger diversity of voices in terms of gender over the last 10 to 15 years but yeah yeah, it's something I fight against. And I think women are seen as interchangeable sometimes when they're journalists. So yeah, I had a bit of a, I called it a rant. A friend of mine said it's quite a level-headed argument, actually. But there are great women coming through, especially younger women, which makes me really excited. You have a chapter entitled Among Angels, and you talk about a specific moment you had at a Kate

Bush concert which is linked very much to having a baby becoming a parent but also grief around a miscarriage that you'd also have gone through and I should say I believe you having having reread this bit last night you were talking to Paul McCartney when when that was also happening in your life so these moments all came together for you when you were at a Kate Bush concert. Yeah my son was four months old I was asked to review the first night of Kate Bush's residency of gigs in 2014 which I didn't want not to do because I was a huge fan and also I wanted to get a sense of my old self back I'd had a very difficult birth and yeah my grief for my father had just come back

um you know quite powerfully um and she sang a song called Among Angels at the end of that gig after um setting a lot of her songs to these narratives about um mothers and sons she writes a lot about mothers and sons in her work um and this song Among Angels the words seem to speak to me about um you know her as a person saying saying that, you know, you could get help, you could help yourself. There are people around you that could help you. Obviously, she didn't write it for me. But there was something about her as somebody I'd loved all my life as a musician singing these words to me that was incredibly powerful. And I used to play that song again and again at the time. And it really helped me feel better, which is, it's extraordinary that music can do that.

And, you know, it definitely helped me. And, you know, my son getting older and thinking of parenthood through that lens of music was also good. And another thing that doesn't get written about a lot by music journalists, you know, that's, you know, music is personal and intimate and about our friends and family. Quite often you're told to avoid that stuff, but that's going you know music is personal and intimate about our friends and family um quite often you're told to avoid that stuff but that's what it is it's it's the soundtrack to our lives it's a cliche but it's true at the book launch is it tonight is it happening today i had an event last week i've got a little party tomorrow it's my birthday tomorrow as well

you've got a lot going on happy birthday are you going to be dancing yes there will be i'll be reading a bit of the book which is about music and dancing and the joy of coming together with friends. I can't wait. Well, huge congratulations on it. Sorry we made you cry a little bit. That's what music can do. That's the point. Right. And I'm very happy that you've published a playlist because old school, I was writing some of the songs you were talking about out in my notebook last night and going to make a note of them to put them on my playlist today. So you've done me some work there they're all there mr blobby is there as well which is about my brothers but there's some very cool songs there as well it's all sorts jude rogers

congratulations have a great launch day the sound of being human that's the name of the book and what are your sounds you've been kind enough to share them with me before i'm sure a few of them will come in off the back of that conversation. Many messages also still coming in, to which I will return about our first discussion this morning and why people, largely men, have been watching porn in public and what you think should be done about it after the allegations around a Conservative MP in the House of Commons. Well, sticking with politics, but a very different area if I could do that. The Homes for Ukraine scheme was introduced last month, only last month by the government in an attempt to encourage UK citizens to sponsor Ukrainians fleeing war. Many of you, of course, through these last few weeks have been in touch to ask about how to help and what to do. And in fact, saying you've signed up. Well, Judith Hutchinson is one such sponsor. And she supported Oksana Malyshchuk, a Ukrainian citizen and her two children. And last week, she drove them from Romania to Calais. And a month on, Oksana Malyshchuk, a Ukrainian citizen and her two children.

And last week she drove them from Romania to Calais. And a month on, Oksana is still waiting for her visa, despite, I believe, her children having them, meaning she can't enter the UK. Judith, where is she now? Good morning. Hi. Hi. So at the moment, Oksana is in Dunkirk. She's been there since last Friday. She was in an Airbnb, but she had to vacate that today. So I texted her first thing this morning and she's finding somewhere else to stay again tonight.

Although, of course, she doesn't know how long, how many nights she needs. So that's quite difficult, really. They're just living from day to day. Why did you get involved with her particularly and how did you get involved with this scheme? What made you decide to do this? So for us, it was quite a natural thing to do because our son has worked in Ukraine for the last six years.

And he left Mariupol the Saturday before the invasion. And he's been there for six years as a ceasefire monitor. Right. And he has got to for six years as a ceasefire monitor. Right. And he has got to know many Ukrainians. And as he was leaving Ukraine, I suppose he felt a bit guilty that he was leaving these Ukrainian nationals behind. And some of his friends started phoning him saying, can you help my wife? Can you help my families?

And one of the first people who asked Charles for help was Oksana. So Charles, our son, asked, Mum, would you take Oksana and her two children? So, of course, we said we would. I'm imagining that phone call. I mean, I'm sure there have been phone calls home over the years, but, Mum, can you do this, please? Even if it seemed like a natural thing, that was, I'm sure, a pretty important call.

Yes, I think it's important for him that he can do as much as he can for people that he's met over the last few years. And what do you, what's your, I mean, we hear a lot of headlines about the delays and what's going on here. But you've, of course, been very involved. I mean, as I say, you met her in Romania and drove her to Calais. Ukraine on March the 10th and went to Romania, a small village north of Bucharest, because she felt Poland might be saturated with refugees. So she made her way to Romania in her own car. And we in Hampshire live in a small village that for her to have a car here would be essential, really. I mean, so we thought it was the best thing to do to drive her car to the UK. And she's got a four-month-old baby, a five-year-old son on her own.

We just felt there was no way that she could drive herself. So I just went out to Romania to help her drive in her car. How was that and how is she doing? Well, I am in awe of her she is such a brave strong woman who can be cheerful most of the day even though we're driving along and the baby needs feeding and we stop and then we have to stop for petrol and then the five-year-old wants to run around so it it was a journey that was quite long because of the circumstances. But she managed it. And we got to know each other in the five days

because we were in a car together for so long. And we shared humour as well. And started to form that bond, which you, of course, hope will result in her coming here to the UK under this scheme. And yet she just isn't coming at the moment. She can't make it. So her children's visas were granted on Good Friday, the 15th of April. And so both children.

And so we just automatically assumed that hers would follow so that's why we started our road trip on easter sunday the 17th of april thinking that by the time we got to calais hers would have been through but it wasn't and we got to Calais on Friday and we didn't know what to do and she really wanted to go back home. In terms of going back to Ukraine? Going back to Ukraine she thought she would go back rent an apartment in the west of Ukraine and her husband could join her there. Yeah of course because we shouldn't forget that they're separated by circumstances because the men have to stay. She left her husband and I think she thought that it would be a few weeks and she'd be going back and um. How confident do you feel about being able to get her here? Well, the thing is there's no helpline for, there is a helpline,

but you get through to the helpline and they don't have access to the status of applications. And, of course, the applicants don't have any MPs. It's only the sponsoring family that can contact the MPs. So this is what's happening. You have to go through your local MP because there's no other route. We have to go through our local MP. So Steve Bryan in Winchester and Caroline Notes in Romsey have been helping us.

And yesterday morning, Caroline Notes was in the Home Office hub and, you know, asked for this email to be resent or sent for the first time, if you wouldn't mind, coming back on to tell us progress and updates, because this is the reality behind the news headlines of what's holding things up. And if it's been approved, but then she hasn't been granted it, the actual analysis of the system is really important. And people are feeling very frustrated. We're really frustrated. And unless you're chasing it, you don't know there's a problem.

Well, I sincerely hope you are able to be if that's still what she wants to be united and for Oksana to come here. Judith, will you come back on and tell us how it's going? Yes, yes, certainly. All right. Well, Judith Hutchinson, thank you very much for telling us the story so far about what it's like at the moment to actually try and get somebody you are sponsoring into your home from Ukraine. Judith Hutchinson there. Thank you. A statement from the government from a spokesperson is here, which says the Home Office is aware some applicants have been waiting over a month for their applications to be progressed or an outcome to be communicated. We acknowledge that this is unacceptable and we are working to resolve this and continue to speed up the processing of applications. The Home Office is now processing thousands of visas a day. This shows the changes made to streamline the service are working and we will continue to build on this success so we can speed up the process even further. Well, talking about something else completely, because we've done music, but should we do a bit of theatre now on today's programme in the midst of politics and some of the

frustrations? I think we need it. Imagine you're an actor, finally landing your big break, a lead in a popular and award-winning West End show. But then you also have to adapt the male lead into a female character. Well, that's what happened to my next guest. Pyle Mystery is currently performing in the life of Pye at London's Wyndham's Theatre. You may have read the book, of course. The show tells the story, the book too, of course, of Pye Patel, a boy from India named after a French swimming pool and raised in a zoo.

And his family decided to sell the zoo and move to Canada with their few remaining animals. However, during a storm, the boat sinks, leaving him stranded at sea for 227 days on a lifeboat with a rather fearsome tiger. Pyle normally plays the role of Rani, Pye's sister. However, last week, Pyle became the first woman to play the role of Pye, traditionally a male character.

Pyle, good morning. Morning. How did it feel? Incredible, surreal, exhilarating. It's still a crazy reality of mine that I can't quite believe. How did you go about preparing? Did you try and think of things to do to make, I don't know, the role more androgynous? That was the decision that I made to begin with. It wasn't quite decided that I would be playing it as a female. So it was a growing conversation, one that was changing and going back and forth, because I didn't know the full

extent of the situation. I didn't know how to really play it. So I went by playing it androgynously. But that was quite difficult because I didn't know what, there is no specificity, you know, in any gender, you can play it however I, I could have played it however I wanted to, but it would have been difficult for me to find my strengths, you know. I imagine it's nerve-wracking anyway, but going on and doing that, you did it for two nights last week. I did it for two nights, yeah, never again. Because there's a thing about second night syndrome, isn't there,

about it not being quite the same. How was it on the first and how was it on the second? First night was incredible. I never thought I'd ever receive a reaction like that because I never allowed myself to. I never thought I'd create such a wonderful impact on an audience. And the role is so pressurising in itself that I just thought, I need to get this right

because it's done so, it's performed so wonderfully by two beautiful actors, you know. And some amazing puppets for which the show's just won a lot of Olivier. Yeah. I haven't actually seen it and I would love to go and see it but I was looking up the images and some of the videos that are online. They are beautiful.

So beautiful. How do you find it being around the puppets? Oh my gosh. It's incredible how, I mean, we work with six, seven now, I think, beautiful puppeteers and the way that they breathe life into these animals, these inanimate objects and make them be real and alive is incredible. And it's not a case of having to believe in these animals. You want to believe in these animals, you know.

You never see the puppeteers on stage. You never do. And with Richard Parker specifically, me being Rani, I mean, the second half of the story is predominantly Pi and the tiger. Yeah. You know, they are the main body. That's who you're talking about when you say Richard Parker. Richard Parker is the tiger's name. I love that.

I mean, I've read the book. I just haven't seen the play. I know, it's such an unusual name for a tiger. But as Rani, when I am backstage, I watch the puppeteers work the tiger through the wings. And I can't connect to it. Obviously, I can't. I don't see it through an audience's perspective. So I see the puppeteers. They're so apparent to me. And I watch them and I learn from them and I watch how they move their bodies and how they vocalize the tiger.

And it's such a surreal moment, actually, on Friday, being Pi and experiencing Richard Parker for the first time in all its glory, it's incredible. And you don't see the puppeteers at all. Well, they do see you. And that was the whole point. And this was a moment that you're marking and it's interesting for us to hear about because, of course, it's also, I understand, Life of Pi, one of only a handful of West End shows that has male and female understudies for the lead roles. Why do you think that's important to have both? It's important because, well, with Pi's story specifically, the importance of Pi's character is that their story is universally told

and it's not restricted to a specific gender. It goes way beyond that. Pi's story is a human story. It is about belief. It represents a lot of things. And there are... Life of Pi talks about issues that everyone is going through. Loss, grief, family, love.

Most importantly, survival. And have we not all needed to survive in a time like this? Well, we wish you the best of luck with it the continued luck with it are you enjoying it yeah loving it despite despite last week and what you had to go through are you going to do it again uh hopefully i think that's the plan okay fingers crossed well of course we've missed the theater over the last couple of years so it's a joy if you can get to to get to go and see something pile mystery thank you for talking to us this morning. No worries, thank you for having me. Well, let me come back to some of your messages

still coming in with regards to why people, largely men, watch porn in public. A message here is particularly about this story saying, I think this is a cry for help from this individual MP who's been alleged. Men and people watch because they can anywhere. Isn't this liberal society, low regulation, apparently what we want? That is how I'm looking at this a cry for help women are objectifying

themselves on social media reads this message i'm absolutely horrified at the content women are happy to put out these days young boys are being fed this and normalizing it i believe this is the tip of the iceberg and porn watching in public will only get more prevalent. Men are in the wrong, but women also have a role to play in making this unacceptable. And I think this is an addiction, reads this message, that people are watching this in public. Well, let me bring your mind back to a conversation I had on this programme in September of last year when the TV presenter Julia Bradbury came

and spoke to me about being diagnosed with breast cancer. It was her first broadcast interview and you may remember it was very raw indeed not least because we spoke about how it felt to break the news to her three young children and so many of you got in touch with us after that conversation especially as many of you could relate on some level with one in seven women facing breast cancer in their lifetime. I almost can't say that enough. Julia Bradbury has now let the cameras follow her story in an ITV documentary, which is going out this evening, called Julia Bradbury, Breast Cancer and Me.

Julia, good morning. Welcome back. Good morning, Emma. It's lovely to be back. And I should just say before we gallop along with our chat that you feature in the documentary. And thank you very much for allowing us to do that. No, no, I think I will remember our conversation for a very long time, for the rest of my life, because I think the way that you spoke, and you are obviously a communicator for a living, it touched a lot of people. Is that why you want to let people in on what's happened since?

Very much so. I have been open about my breast cancer diagnosis since actually the moment that I discovered my lump two years ago. And because I had done that, because I shared a picture of me having a mammogram and encouraged women to check themselves and, you know, push with your doctor, be persistent, all of those things, which I still say we must do. It just felt a natural thing to do. I do have to say I had the most incredible team. I mean, I work with a wonderful team of women at Two Four Productions and my executive producers were Grace and Rachel, who I know personally. So that obviously made it a much more comfortable experience because they were there to protect me and look after me as well. And they said that if there was a moment where they didn't think this was the right thing to do, then they would step

in as friends. And that gave me the confidence to do this. I know for a fact, I mean, I know you've interviewed Jane Godley on this, on Woman's Hour. She's currently undergoing chemotherapy for ovarian cancer. Ironically, I'm an ambassador for Ovarian Cancer UK. And I did a post about the symptoms of ovarian cancer that Jane saw. And it prompted her to go to the doctor. And when I did a post the other night about breast cancer, she just sent me a one line message, you saved my life. So if I've saved one life, if I can, if I can touch other women, to encourage them to learn more about their health to check their breasts um and to perhaps see what it's like for me as well you know the struggle is real the emotions are real and i might be a television presenter and people might think they know me but the pain

and the hurt and the hardship is the same for all of us well you've also since we spoke gone on to have a mastectomy and a reconstruction how i, I just wanted to ask how you are. You are an amazing communicator, but how are you doing? You know what? I will be honest with you. I cried almost every day up to my operation, up to the mastectomy, because I really didn't understand what was coming up. It's bewildering if somebody tells you,

and it's delivered in very frank soundbites from your doctors. You know, you're going to have a mastectomy. You have a six centimetre tumour. We're going to put a silicon implant inside you. I was told very early on that I probably wouldn't need radiation or chemotherapy. All of this information comes at you at such a rate of knots. You just don't know how to compute it all. So I was overwhelmingly sad. And and there are still, of course, there are

moments of that. But I also feel very grateful. I could have an immediate reconstruction. I haven't had to have chemotherapy or radiation because of the type of cancer I had. And because the tumor, although it was high grade and big, it was removed in one lump. I have subsequently done something called a SNPS test, which can gauge your risk of reoccurrence. And more importantly, for 50% of the population, you can actually gauge your risk of breast cancer. And this test isn't yet available on the NHS, but it should be. And Professor Gareth Evans, who's leading the charge on this and is trying to get it pushed through, is very, very close. So I hope this documentary nudges that forward, because it would cost the NHS about £50 to do this. It's sort of like a genetic test, a risk assessment test,

and it costs the NHS £20,000 per woman for breast cancer treatment. If I had had the SNPS test done in my 40s, I would not have had a mastectomy. I would have been saved that. I would have probably perhaps had a lumpectomy. And as soon as I discovered my lump, I would have been treated very differently. How are you feeling in your body? In my body, physically, I actually feel okay. You know, since the operation. So I'll try and explain the sensation because it's

hard to do it I I made sure that I was as physically fit as I could be before the operation so I did lots of shoulder exercises I did lots of stretching I did lots of strength because I knew they were they cut through your entire front pectoral muscle region and they cut into your armpit and remove lymph nodes it's major it's it's like having a huge car crash you know the the whole left side of my body was lifted up scraped out and stitched back together with a bit of silicon inside it so it's a huge huge trauma I was very very sore immediately after the operation but wasn't on painkillers for a long long time I used cold ice packs and

I used these gorgeous little heart-shaped pillows that the cancer community make for women for free because they care about each other and they love each other. There's another set of ladies that knit prosthetic knockers. They're called knitted knockers. I mean, the community's amazing. We could do a whole show about the support that's out there. But I was sent one of these lovely little heart shaped pillows, which I still sleep with. It was very comforting. The ice packs help. Now I just feel it feels a bit weird. I've got this false boob and it doesn't quite feel like me. We're on Woman's Hour, so I can talk about my nipple. They managed to save my nipple.

It still goes erect, but I can't feel anything. There's no sensation in my breast. I can feel that I'm touching here, but it feels like a sort of a dull ache of another part of my body. So it's a very out-of-body experience. It's not you, but it's a new part of me, and I have to come to terms with it and and love it you've also spoken in the past about refusing to get your boobs out on television

before yeah and uh now you're in that place this evening I mean it was so ironic when I was starting out in television there there was a moment where I had to have a standoff with lots of my male uh bosses at the time this was more than 25 years ago now. I didn't want to take part in a show called The Sex Show on the channel that I was working for. And I eventually ended up leaving because of it. So yes, I've always been very strident that I wouldn't get my boobs out on telly. And within minutes, in some instances, this team that came in to film me, I mean, there was one poor sound man who got pulled in at the last minute. And I literally said, I'm really sorry because my breasts were out within seconds

and they were filming me having an ultrasound. There's quite a moving moment in the documentary that I'd like to highlight. I mean, it's very, it's quite a, it is a touching emotional story, really about how my family are dealing with this and how I'm dealing with it emotionally. But I do show myself looking at my new breast for the first time on camera. And people might look at

that and go, well, it looks all right. What's she worried about? Because I want to make this very clear. I do feel fortunate that I had an immediate reconstruction. There are ladies out there who are flat. There are ladies out there who couldn't have reconstruction because of their chemotherapy treatment. For me, it's been massively emotionally hard to go through this. I know it's very hard for some ladies who are flat and will remain flat or have chosen to stay flat. And I'm not glib at all about where I'm at. But I do also feel that I want to show a little bit of hope for some women that you can feel okay, that there are outcomes that are not absolutely disastrous. And of course, women do still die from this and it is horrible and it is ugly. And I don't know if my cancer is going to come back. I have to live with that and manage that risk. But I do believe in positive

mental attitude and trying to look forwards and not backwards. Well a message just came in for you from one of our listeners saying you're just brilliant and you're inspiring and I suppose while you are showing the pain and the loss and the different way of being in yourself and feeling and also how your family are I think it is a very powerful message if you can do that. And of course, I know that's, you know, it's important to you. And then some of those messages will reflect that to you. Yeah. And I think also that has been an important part of looking after myself emotionally. It's nice to feel that you can help other people and that you're doing something and that puts you in a good place emotionally and mentally as well.

So it's a sort of therapy for me as well to be able to share this and to get feedback like that. You know, the messages have been immensely kind. There have been some people who go, oh, I don't think you should have shown your bikini, you're flaunting it a little bit. And I've gone, actually, you know what? Is it a positive that I can be a little bit confident? Oh, I loved it. I definitely wanted to see you in your bikini. And I've been loving every bit of your ability to share this. And I know it has helped you. So it's important as well for you, as well as those that you're talking to. And listen, at least you got your boobs out on TV on your own terms, Julia Bradbury.

Exactly. When we go for lunch and a catch up, I'll show you my scarf. Can't wait. There you go. That's the date. Julia Bradbury, it's on tonight, the documentary. It's called Julia Bradbury, Breast Cancer and Me. ITV this evening at nine o'clock. Lovely to have you back.

That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Thank you so much for your time. Join us again for the next one. I'm Sarah Treleaven and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake.

No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.