Woman's Hour - Julia Gillard, Dame Sheila Hancock, Tree Climbing Champion and Abortion in Hungary

Episode Date: September 15, 2022

Dame Sheila Hancock tells us about her memories of the Queen. Just short of 90, she has lived her life in parallel. Earlier this year she said: "throughout my life, I have been grateful for the Queen's reassuring presence."Julia Gillard, former Australian Prime Minister – and the only woman to have held that role – speaks to Emma about the death of Queen Elizabeth II, and her status as a global female leader. What will it mean for Australia, where King Charles automatically became Head of State last week? The current Labor government there led by Anthony Albanese has previously indicated it wants to hold a referendum on whether to become a republic, though Prime Minister Albanese said on Sunday that “now is not a time to talk about our system of government”.Josephine Hedger has just become the female World Champion Tree Climber – for the fifth time. She joins Emma to chat why she loves braving immense heights at speed – and how it feeds into what she does for a living.Today marks a significant day for women in Hungary. The government has tightened abortion laws in the country, meaning women who want to get an abortion will have to listen to vital signs - such as the foetal heartbeat - before being allowed to proceed. The Prime Minister Viktor Orban has long sought to boost Hungary's flagging birth rate and his right-wing government prides itself in standing for traditional family values. Nick Thorpe, the BBC's East and Central Europe Correspondent explains how the law has changed.

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Emma Barnett and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Good morning and welcome to the programme. And what a programme we have for you. The first and only woman to run Australia, former Prime Minister Julia Gillard is here. Having met the Queen but also very aware of the current political climate in her country, now run by a Republican Prime Minister, and with a new head of state, King Charles,

you'll hear from her shortly. A dispatch from Hungary, where laws affecting women have been changed, prompting outcry from some doctors. And the actor and author Dame Sheila Hancock will be here, which always promises to be entertaining. I remember the last time she came on, last March, I believe it was, and we were talking about lockdown and she said how much she'd enjoyed being slutty during lockdown and that she realised during that period this country needs a revolution. All that to come and more. But I will also be joined by the fifth time women's tree climbing world champion. Let me get my mouth around that. And brilliantly for a tree climber, her name is Josephine Hedger. She does like hedges and works with them, I am assured,

in her professional life as a hedge layer if required. But for a hedger, she prefers trees, definitively. This morning, I am in the market for some other names in your life, perhaps, which pertain, if they are your name, to your working life or have raised an eyebrow and stories of what have happened when you've heard them or shared those particular names. A few that were given to me by my colleagues today on the Woman's Hour team. Sarah Blizzard, I'm told, is a BBC weather presenter. I looked her up. She looks very accomplished. Brilliant name. One of my colleagues' school nurses was called Mrs Hart and another's biology teacher was called Dr Joint. Beat that. The number is 84844 to text the programme. Text will be charged at your standard message rate on social media or at BBC Women's Hour. Email me here as well or send a WhatsApp or a voice note via WhatsApp on 03700 100 444. But first, Julia Gillard was Australian Prime Minister from 2010 to 2013.

She remains the only woman to have held that role. And while in power, she met with Queen Elizabeth II as Australia's head of state. Since leaving office, Julia Gillard has gone on to explore and promote global female leadership and look at why we don't have more of it. Having also gone viral with that speech nearly 10 years ago about misogyny. We'll play a clip of that to jog your memory. It's likely Australians will be offered a chance to decide whether they still want a British monarch as head of state. The current Labour government is led by a Republican

and has previously indicated that it wants to hold a referendum on the issue, though just last weekend, the Prime Minister said now is not the time to talk about our system of government. Good morning, Julia Gillard. Thank you for joining me. Good morning. Delighted to be with you. Can we start, and I'm very aware as I speak to you, that the Queen is lying in state. We have thousands of people queuing in this country and from around the world in London to go and pay their respects, to see the Queen's coffin. And a lot of them are bowing their heads. Can I, first of all, get your reflections,

I suppose, on the news, but also having met the woman? This, of course, is very sad news. and I can understand why people are queuing and wanting to pay their respects. It's sad because it's a human story about the loss of a much-loved family member, and I think for many of us that reminds us of episodes in our own lives where we've lost mothers, fathers, grandmothers, grandfathers. There, of course, is the element of it, which is reflections about a life of service so well lived. I think so many have looked at the example of the Queen and how she put duty and service above all else. And then there's the symbolic ending of an era, and inevitably, I think that leads people to reflections about what next when there is change in the air.

I think it has implications for all of us. We think about our own lives. We think about our nations. We think about the future. And so I think all of those elements are coming together as the UK mourns and many millions of people around the world join the UK in that morning. What was she like when you met her?

She was funny, a great sense of humour. She exhibited that sense of duty, which we all know she had. One way I saw her do that was on what was her last visit to Australia, where she came to visit every Australian state and to be there for the Commonwealth Heads of Government meeting in Perth. And inevitably, that involved long hours, lots of standing. And she did all of that and did it certainly, not only without complaint, I mean, she would never have complained about anything, I don't think, but with a clear sense of duty and engagement in it. And I think all of the leaders there, including me, had the opportunity to talk to her and to experience some of that

mischief that could be in her sense of humour. Yes, it's funny, a lot of people go there straight away when they talk about the Queen. They talk about that twinkle, that sense of humour, those elements of mischief that you refer to. And as you say, a time also to reflect back but look forward. And with now, I mean, sort of the reign of King Charles immediately beginning, as it does, you know, the crown passing invisibly between the two. There's now conversation where countries are affected about heads of state. And even though that's not a conversation your Prime Minister

has said is right for this very moment, what is the mood like, do you think, should there be a referendum in Australia about the monarch's future role? I think the Prime Minister is right to say we will get to all of this in due course, but it's not the needed discussion right now. I think Australia over many long years now has thought about its future and the Republican debate has been alive and well. Sometimes it's been more at the forefront of politics. Sometimes it's been more at the background, depending on the end that people would reflect. But people will do that, I think, in a very measured and unhurried way, and I think the Prime Minister has captured that sentiment in the community.

So what I think people should expect to see is an emerging discussion which will be measured in years before there is a Republican referendum or any constitutional move. So you don't see it as something that is any time soon, even though a government MP has been given the official task of making the case for Australia to become a republic with an Australian head of state? The Prime Minister has been very clear that this is not the work of his first period of government, which he is in now. He was elected in May this year. And so that does inevitably put the discussion off.

And I think that's right. I think that's exactly what the Australian community would want. There are things to think through and discuss about potential Republican models. Last time the nation considered becoming a republic, that did not succeed largely because there was disputation about the model. So there are things that need to be worked through and discussed

and that can be done in a very measured way over time and I think that's what the Prime Minister is indicating. I would want to say that some of the dialogue around this, and I would have said that before the death of Queen Elizabeth II, some of the dialogue around this in the UK rolls out as if it's a temperature check around the popularity of the monarchy. I don't think that. I think it is well and truly possible for Australians in their millions to feel a very deep respect for the service of the Queen, to feel very warmly towards the current royal family, but also to want over time to see their nation become a republic. So I just don't think we should put this in some frame

around individual popularity. Is that how you square it as a republican? I've been a lifelong republican. And for me, it's a question of, you know, a nation making decisions about its future. And in doing that, I think Australians will continue to show respect and interest in the royal family, of course the UK, our historic links here. None of that's going to change. No, I mean, also, you know, people may not know why this is the case. You know, Australia was originally a collection of British colonies.

And when it became a nation in 1901, it chose a constitutional monarchy system of government. And the relationship has, as some have described and what you're describing, has changed. And the people also have changed in that time. And that's why there has been the interest in certainly testing that. As you say, disputes last time in the referendum about how it would change were there. But for you, not any time soon that you see this changing. But of course, this discussion has been on the debate, the debate books, as it were, for some time. But a lot of people taking the time to pay their respects to the individual.

And in this case, of course, Queen Elizabeth II. When I mentioned we had you on the programme, Julia, straight away we got a message from someone called Julia. And we're also talking about names, saying, amazing to have the wonderful Dame Sheila Hancock on and my namesake, Julia Gillard, on the same programme. I will never forget her anti-misogyny speech, one of the great speeches of all time.

This was while you were in office as Prime Minister. You were calling out sexist behaviour in your fellow politicians. And it was October 2012. Let's just hear a clip. I will not be lectured about sexism and misogyny by this man. I will not. And the government will not be lectured about sexism and misogyny by this man. I will not. And the government will not be lectured about sexism and misogyny by this man. Not now, not ever. The Leader of the Opposition says that people who hold sexist views and who are misogynists are not appropriate for high office. Well, I hope the Leader of the Opposition has got a piece of paper and he is writing out his resignation.

Because if he wants to know what misogyny looks like in modern Australia, he doesn't need a motion in the House of Representatives. He needs a mirror. That's what he needs. Are you still friends with the leader of the opposition, Tony Abbott? We were political colleagues. Obviously, my life's moved on now and I'm here in the UK doing a number of things, one of which has been building a global institute for women's leadership at King's College London. Indeed.

The mission of which is to ensure that no one ever needs to give a speech like that again, because whether it's women in politics or women in any other walk of life, there is gender equality, and it is equally likely that a woman can come through for leadership. Has it got better in Australia? Yes, it has got better in Australia. And I think around the world, we are seeing progress. We are seeing increasing numbers of women coming forward for leadership. But the World Economic Forum every year does a very sobering diagnostic for us about the rate of change. And their most recent diagnostic said that at current rates of change, it wouldn't be for more than 130 years that we would see global gender equality. And I think we can all say that's far too long to wait. So much to do.

I think the conversations we're having this morning are in some ways joined. I have a podcast, something called a podcast of one's own, because the Global Institute for Women's Leadership is based in the Virginia Woolf building at King's College. And we did do an episode around the Platinum Jubilee about what the long image of the Queen as a leader had meant for role modelling about women's leadership. And I think that kind of discussion about the Queen in this period but about women's leadership and role models more generally is incredibly

important because we're only going to see more women come forward if they've got the sense that these places, politics, corporate boardrooms, C-suites, judicial benches, the inner workings of technology companies, the news media, that these are places for them. Well, yes, and you're here in the UK at a time when we've just welcomed a new Prime Minister, a woman, but of course not through a general election. No, not through a general election, though I do think the UK should note that this puts you in a fairly elite league globally. There are only two other nations that have had three women leaders.

One is Finland and the other one is New Zealand. So for that, it's a success from where you're standing, looking at global female leadership, because a lot of our listeners have got in touch to say, well, that point about a general election. But also, you know, there's also a frustration that we've seen too come through, there's this whole concept you'll be familiar with, the glass cliff, this idea that women get power or get senior jobs when there's been a mess to clean up, to come and deal with afterwards. And this idea that women are put in those positions actually when it's even more difficult at times. The research does very clearly show that. I mean, for myself, obviously, I'm an Australian Labour Party member. I was a Labor Prime Minister, so my political sympathies are on the Labor side of the spectrum. But whatever side of the political spectrum we're talking about, I want everyone to have fair access and fair opportunity. And I certainly want to see women come through in equal numbers to men.

The Glass Cliff research was originally done by a Global Institute for Women's Leadership colleague of mine, and it was done in the corporate sector. There was literally a news article that said women CEOs lead to low share prices, but the research showed it was the other way around. Businesses in trouble were more likely to reach out for a female CEO. And I think we do see echoes and parallels of that in politics in many places around the world. Just go back to my question, which I'm not saying you avoided, but just because actually there was a reason for it.

When I asked if you have talked to or have a relationship with Tony Abbott, I know you were political colleagues. The reason I asked it as well, though, is a lot of women get in touch with this programme about confronting misogyny, about talking to or any form of sexism that they may have encountered and how to do it. Now, of course, politics has a theatre to it. It has a space where you can take that space and say certain things. And you also had a very specific power there as Prime Minister. But have you talked to Tony Abbott

since about that speech? Not since generally, but about what you were saying? Has he ever engaged with that? No, I haven't spoken to Tony Abbott about it personally. And I've seen Tony Abbott about it personally, and I've seen Tony Abbott on the odd occasion. Obviously, there are things that bring politicians from all political parties together. He, at the time, indicated that in respect of himself, he didn't think it was a fair speech. But he said in the years since he's understood why it's come to mean things for women. So he's put that perspective forward. For me, this, you know, now what the speech means is it's not really something about me and Tony Abbott and that moment. I mean, I'm kind of astonished in many ways that 10 years later, we're still talking about it. If you told me at the time that we'd be talking about it a decade later,

I would have looked at you very, very oddly. So I think the speech now really isn't so much about that day in Australian politics. It's just come to represent for many women a sort of outlet when they themselves in their own lives feel like they've been treated poorly just because of their gender and watching that speech gives them some heart. And so what that means for me is we've really got to get about the work of change and make sure that no one encounters those moments. I think you're completely right. And, you know, on platforms like TikTok,

I believe it's got a whole other life that women use it for those moments. But I actually, because I know you care about change and I'm very interested in change, wondered about the direct change to your life with the men that you were facing and how they were dealing with you and how you felt things could have changed perhaps after that. If you just stay with me for this thought, Julia, you are, of course, a former Prime Minister from one former Prime Minister to another. Earlier in the year, I interviewed David Cameron. This was actually as part of a documentary for the World Service, the BBC World Service called The Royal Diplomat. And it was about his experience of Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth II's formidable diplomatic skills. I interviewed many, many people around the world of different levels, of different experiences.

And also I asked him how he believed being a woman influenced those around her when she was carrying out the role that she could in the way that she could in terms of diplomacy. And here's what he had to say? I think the thing about Her Majesty the Queen was that she was so effective and accomplished at dealing with people, at putting them at ease. And of course, she had this extraordinary level of experience. She met virtually every British diplomat before they went out to another country, every ambassador rather, and she met most of the ambassadors from foreign countries as they came into the UK. So her knowledge from that, plus the fact she'd visited over 100 countries,

and in some cases had been back and back time and time again, the level of knowledge and understanding and experience was huge, combined with this sense of service and duty and a very good ability to put people at ease and to talk to them. How will you remember her contribution, for instance, to your time in office when it came to relationships with leaders around the world? I think what I remember most of all is that historic visit

that Her Majesty made to the Republic of Ireland in 2011. The relations between Britain and Ireland were already transformed and improved. And obviously, the Good Friday Agreement had brought a level of peace and security to Northern Ireland that we hadn't seen before. But the Queen's visit, the words she spoke in Gaelic, the places that she visited, the way she handled it, it reached parts that prime ministers simply cannot reach and it had a transformative effect. Is there a particular moment which stands out for you on that trip? I think the standout moment for me was at the sort of official dinner where the Queen started

her speech with a few words in Gaelic in the Irish language and you could just feel this reaction in the room, this incredible warmth that she had, you know, decided to do that and do it so perfectly. And I was sitting at a table with Seamus Heaney, the famous Irish poet, and he was quite amazed by this too. So I'll always remember that. But I'd also remember her brilliant handling of, you know, the Chinese president coming for a state visit, Barack and Michelle Obama coming for a state visit, Barack and Michelle Obama coming for a state visit. And also, I remember going on a visit with her when she went to Germany. And I remember Angela Merkel telling me about how much the Queen's repeated visits to Germany had meant to the German people. And you could see that over a long period of time

after the Second World War, the Queen went back and back and back to Germany because she wanted to help to bring the two countries together. And so there are so many parts to this extraordinary legacy, the legacy of the Commonwealth, the legacy of what was done with the Republic of Ireland, the relationship with Germany, and the countless visits both outwards and inwards that fundamentally

helped Britain with its relations with other countries around the world. When you see a picture of Her Majesty with lots of politicians and political leaders, she's often, not always, and it depends on the grouping, she's often one of the only women. Do you think her being a woman and having been in this position for 70 years or so also has any impact on how she connects with people? I don't know if you've seen that because you have described a lot of men meeting her and, if you like, being very affected in a good way. It's a very good question. And I remember having a Majesty the Queen to Downing Street to celebrate a particular jubilee. And we had the previous four prime ministers.

So we had Tony Blair, Gordon Brown, John Major, and me. And so it's a classic queen in a room with four men for the photograph. I think that she is very good at putting people at ease, very good at finding a moment of humor or lightness to cut through the sort of flummery and sometimes sort of pomposity surrounding some of those sort of events. She's brilliant at that. And maybe part of that is being a woman and having that sort of sense of humor and that ability to put people at ease. There it is again, Julia Gillard, listening to David Cameron talk to me there for a program called The Royal Diplomat, which is a real insight to the Queen's travels around the world and those state visits, which is on the World Service.

You can access it via BBC Sounds. But talking again about that connection, do you recognise what David Cameron was saying there, Julia Gillard? Oh, absolutely. I would agree with every word of what David said about the Queen's style and the role that she played in diplomacy and her very deep, very layered knowledge of countries around the world because of her long service, because of the number of times she'd visited them, because of the number of leaders from countries that she dealt with. She really did have a depth of knowledge which would outstrip anyone else. You know, I certainly had the sense talking to her that, you know, almost any event, any leadership moment in the second half of the 20th century, she would have personally met the people involved.

She'd be able to talk about it. And that's truly extraordinary. I remember some of the coverage when you did meet her, it was commented on by some that you didn't curtsy. You felt more comfortable bowing your head. Tell me about that. Do you think she minded? Oh, I don't think she cared less about any of that. I actually think it goes to what Prime Minister Cameron, David Cameron, just said in the extract that you played, that part of the way that she put people at ease was inevitably in meeting her, you know, you were surrounded by protocol and ritual, you know, that's part of the entry point. And there's all sorts of instructions about what you must do this and you mustn't do that. And so I think her whole life, by the time people got to her, they were sort of anxious and nervous. And she knew that and knew that to forge a connection,

she needed to take that away and to make it a human moment. And that was her great skill. And so I think those things that perhaps protocol experts put so much weight on were not of deep significance to her. What was mattering to her was finding this moment of connection. Were you nervous? Oh, you're aware of, I mean, I wasn't nervous in the sense that I was worried about having a conversation with her. I actually wasn't worried about that. But you knew that because of the way that these things are viewed through camera lenses and reported that every microsecond of you walking

in and walking out would be picked over. So that always induces anxiety into it. But I actually found in my interactions with her that that went easily. It just felt like a good conversation, an interesting conversation, a flowing conversation. And I suspect almost everybody who'd ever met her would report the same. Julia Gillard, it's interesting in light of what you said about you wouldn't have known that speech would still be your speech going back to that.

It's still something that people share, but you have got a book out, I believe, called Not Now, Not Ever, 10 years off from the misogyny speech. So it's good to put that back into people's minds. Perhaps that will be out in Australia next month, I'm sure, available here in the UK soon. I hope your trip to the UK is good. And thank you for making time to talk to us this morning. Thank you for the opportunity. Just to say, while we've been talking, messages coming in, for instance, Heather, very grateful to hear Julia

and what the speech contained or that clip that we played. Oh, joy, joy to hear a clip of that speech and Julia this morning. But also, because I will be soon, not just yet, but soon i hope talking to josephine hedger the women's tree climbing world champion for the fifth time and we're talking about names which have a connection to perhaps what you do or an interest my goodness the response has been fantastic you never let me down this is brilliant i was a fashion lecturer at west cheshire college for over 20 years and always remember one of my students names which was polly cotton excellent

she specialized in textile design but sadly i never knew what became of her says sally listening in north wales well polly cotton if you're listening do you get in touch eleanor this is joyous the treasurer of my local branch of the women's institute is called angela swindles amazing amazing amazing and at school in gosport in the 80s we had a french teacher called mrs french and a woodwork teacher called mr carpenter but mr english was a pe teacher you didn't get the full suite there i'm on the subject of names i'm constantly asked if my name is really my name as i am a florist in lancashire and i recently married a PE teacher. You didn't get the full suite there. I'm on the subject of names. I'm constantly asked if my name is really my name as I am a florist in Lancashire and I recently married and became

Mrs Paula Gardner, the florist, and named my new shop Gardner's Florist and the customers often seem amused. Another one here, my maiden name was Hans. Friends at school used to joke that I would marry someone called Foot and they were nearly right. I actually married a walker, but ironically, I'm actually a marathon runner and a personal trainer. The teacher in charge of dance club at my children's school is called Mrs Shufflebottom, says Jo.

And Adrian, good morning to you, listening in Kettering. My name is Adrian Steer and I'm a driving instructor. So it goes on. It seems a very rich theme indeed. Please keep them coming in. Do get in touch with names that seem to mean a bit more or have a bit more meaning depending on what you do or someone's doing with their lives. 84844 is the number you need to text the programme. Now we were just hearing from Julia Gillard about women and leadership around the world, but let's hear a bit more now about how women are affected

by certain types of leadership and certain styles of leadership, because today marks a significant day for women in Hungary. The government there has tightened abortion laws, meaning that from today, women who want to get an abortion will have to listen to something called vital signs, such as the fetal heartbeat, before being allowed to proceed. The Prime Minister, Viktor Orban, has long sought to boost Hungary's flagging birth rate and his right-wing government prides itself in standing for traditional family values. Nick

Thorpe is the BBC's East and Central Europe correspondent. He's in Budapest. Just before we came on air, I asked him how the law has changed from today onwards. Basically, this is a change to the regulations governing abortion in Hungary, which has been legal, fully on demand since, I think, 1953. obliges doctors to give women seeking an abortion clearly identifiable indication of the vital signs of life of the fetus before, the doctor will now be legally obliged from today, Thursday, to require the woman to either look at images of the fetus moving inside her womb or to listen, for example, to the sounds of the heartbeat, the sounds of the liquids within her womb before she can confirm her intention to have an abortion. And is this been designed, have these laws and these changes been designed in an attempt to have women change their minds? I think there are several things going on here. One is that this is a right-wing government, a conservative government, which is very proud of its record in, for example, increasing the fertility rate in Hungary, over the last 12 years that this government's been in power.

There's also been an increase, a doubling in the rate of marriages in Hungary and a considerable reduction in the abortion rate, simply either because any way Hungarian couples want to have more children and have less abortions or because of the general climate in the country which is very much pro-birth pro-large family and anti-abortion anti-divorce and so on so that's part of the the kind of whole package of measures introduced by the government to encourage couples to have more babies and have less, and encourage women to have, or rather discourage women from having abortions. What's the reaction been from doctors? The Hungarian Doctors Association say that this has been passed without any consultation at all,

and for that reason, although it won't actually legally restrict the right to abortion women will still be able to require an abortion. Some doctors are saying that this will as the human rights groups are saying that this will further traumatize women who are already in a difficult position in the after making a decision to terminate a pregnancy but also they're saying how can the state doctors are saying the association of hungarian doctors are saying how can the state actually see into the doctor's surgeries in what should be a private conversation between the doctor and the woman seeking an abortion and that therefore it will be actually quite hard to enforce this rule and doctors will still be left the freedom, if they choose to have that,

of saying, well, under law I am obliged to tell you or ask you to look at this machinery, ask you to listen to this, but in fact I don't want to. So it's actually quite an interesting question of medical ethics here as well, which has of course not been discussed with the doctors in advance. So there's no way of knowing if this will be enforced or how it will play out in the privacy of doctors' surgeries. Do we have an insight into how the women of the country feel about this? I think more conservative-minded women, the woman from the far-right Our Homeland Party, Dura Dura,

who introduced it, is very pleased about this. This is actually a piece of legislation she had been pushing for, similarly to some in the Republican Party in the United States, for example, for a long time. So women who are either against abortion or feel abortion rights should be much more restricted are very happy about this. But I think that's only a minority of Hungarian women. On the whole, I think there's a lot of indignation about this, that what is this male-dominated government, this male-dominated state, why is it interfering into the rights of women, into the private lives,

the private, often very difficult decisions taken by women about whether to continue with a pregnancy or not. So there's a lot of indignation about this in the country. That said, this is a very socially conservative country, and some people are saying, including many women, that this is actually a non-issue, that Hungarians on the whole, this is not such a conservative or certainly not such a Catholic country as Poland, for example,

where there's also been restrictions on the right to abortion, that actually this is a red herring thrown out by the government to distract the Hungarian public from much more serious issues like the soaring rate of inflation or the problems over energy supply, the looming problems over energy supply in the coming winter. This is a sort of typical example of this government actually trying to distract people with a very emotional issue, which people will talk about for days or weeks or months, even though it won't actually affect

a woman's right to choose. And those issues we're extremely familiar with, with our own country, of course, and the politics that's going on here, or not actually at the moment, but will resume shortly after the period of mourning with more detail to come about Liz Truss, our new prime minister's energy policy and how that will affect those up and down the country. Just on that and thinking about more broadly, if I may, for one more question to you,

which is around, is this policy, whether it's viewed as a distraction or not, is it born of, as you talked about, the particular government that is there and the leadership that is there solely? Or do you think there has been any impact or influence, for instance, with, as some had thought, a response that could be in other countries to the overturning of Roe v. Wade in America? Was this already in the pipe and going to be coming? I think the Hungarian government is very close to the current Republican party in the United States. The Prime Minister, Viktor Orban, was at the recent meeting of Republicans, of conservative Americans in Texas.

The current president, the newly elected president of Hungary, Katalin Novak, she was the head, the minister of families until now. So this, I think Hungary, the current Hungarian government, is very much part of the sort of global conversation, is following closely what happens in other countries, especially the United States and Poland, and is actually following that. They do feel that this is a sort of crusade, a conservative crusade, what they see as a pro-family crusade, which they're proud members of. Nick Thorpe there, the BBC's East and Central Europe correspondent in Budapest, with that dispatch and insight for us as the law changes from today.

My next guest has inspired many messages from you this morning. She does like to see the world from above, the very tops of trees, to be precise, or as close as she can get to them. Josephine Hedger, an aberist from the New Forest above the very tops of trees to be precise or as close as she can get to them josephine hedger an aberist from the new forest and who has someone who's just become the women's tree climbing world champion for the fifth time josephine lovely to have you on the program good morning congratulations good morning thank you very much we are going to talk about trees i promise and and what you do and what you see and and why you do what you do but you have inspired a lot of messages from our listeners this morning about names

you being called hedger is it no it's it's good it's interesting yeah it is interesting it's like obviously the the path that i was supposed to take but yeah it's a very common common question when people ask my surname and they go oh did you get into it because of your name or you know it's interesting i take it the two were not linked even though you're not against hedges no no not against hedges but they just it didn't happen because of my name it just happens to have happened so it's interesting how that's come about honestly the names that we've got coming in here and the links to professions is just a brilliant insight into, I don't know what we can describe, but there are many. My father's dentist reads this message was called Dr. Butcher. I mean, that's just perfect.

Mr. Horn, a driving instructor. That's the second one in the driving field because we've had someone, Mr. Steer earlier. And I know a Reverend Mark Bishop. I hope he becomes Bishop Bishop. A lovely art teacher called Miss Druitt. I could carry on. These are endless. So thank you this morning, Josephine,

apart from the fact that we're going to hear about what you do for inspiring so many to get in touch with their names. You do just, first of all, work with trees. You know, never mind the sports side of it, the competitive side of it. Tell us what an arborist is versus a tree surgeon. Okay, so yeah, commonly I would tell people that I'm a tree surgeon

only because that's what people would be able to understand, they would know more about. So somebody that looks after trees, prunes trees, reduces them, takes them down, plants them. An arborist is somebody that is more specialist in trees so a tree surgeon for me is somebody that basically would be with a ladder and a chainsaw and would cut cut branches off but wouldn't necessarily have the the the bio of the the knowledge of the trees of how they how they grow they live the different species why we do certain amount of prunings to some species to

others so yeah the biology of trees is more of a specialist side that's the specialist side that makes it okay fine and for you it wasn't about the name jokes aside what why did your love of trees and your interest in trees start um i think i think growing up i i was i hadn't this, but I was always sort of outside. My dad really encouraged me to be outside playing. And, you know, like most kids, you'd climb a tree and things like that. So I realised when I got into my teenage years, when I was deciding on what I wanted to do as a career, I had no idea. I realised very quickly that actually working indoors was not going to be

the thing. So I realised straight away it had to be something outside. My father did forestry and had a number of sawmills. He had five sawmills when I was growing up all over the country. And so I had some kind of influence, I guess, like around around wood like my whole family have like my brothers have dealings with wood you know they make stuff and they're carpenters and things like that so around the family there was always some kind of wood but there was no tree surgeon nobody actually climbed trees for a living so I think what happened was when I went to Sparsholt College when I was 17 to do horticulture because that was my natural thought process you know work outdoors um that's when I then came across trees we learned about trees very very

small amount um they had a boriculture course there and I saw the other courses climbing trees and I was like oh wow that looks really really good fun um so yeah I just decided to change I just something drew me to it and yeah, I loved it ever since. So since I was 18. I mean, people appreciate trees without knowing very much about them. That's one of the things that's actually quite special, but is there something from your great knowledge that you wish more people knew? I think,

I think a lot of people don't actually realise the wellbeing that trees give you. I find it, I don't think people realise how much better they feel being around greenery and trees and just the size of them and how fantastic they are. Obviously, you can get historic trees and the history that they've got, what they've seen while they've stood there for 500, 600 years. It's quite impressive. But definitely I don't think people realise removing trees, how much that can affect just your wellbeing.

It's interesting when we're on sites, we have to remove trees for a number of reasons. And it actually just shocks me how bland the landscape looks. And I don't know, just your whole attitude and your wellbeing and your feeling, you're just not as happy. So I think they give off happiness. Well, yes. And I think without the knowledge,

people feel that, but they don't necessarily know why. Yeah, they don't realise it. And what that is. And yes, at the same time, I mean, can it be controversial, the work that you do? Because of course the benefits to the environment that trees give if you are having to remove trees yeah it is difficult because um particularly when I first started in business um you obviously you need to make money and if a if a client of ours needed to remove a tree they were and they were adamant they were going to

remove it they were going to remove it whether we did it or somebody else did it so you know it was quite difficult at the beginning um i feel like i'm in a little bit more of a position with my customers to really talk to them and try and understand why they want to remove trees and if there's a way that we can avoid that from happening then we'll try and find other means by reduction or pruning you know something to try and accommodate it. Obviously, if the trees are decaying, dying, got some sort of structural problems, then we'll obviously remove them. And our biggest problem at the moment is because we're all living very close

to trees. We have to, you know, our buildings are getting closer and closer to trees. So we do have to manage them. And I would much prefer to prune them rather than remove them. So, yeah, it is a difficult subject. Yes. Well, I always head towards those. So that's good that we've at least tried to understand. I mean, it's for you as someone who loves them,

it's that tension, which I think is important to illustrate. But at the same time, you get a lot of enjoyment from them. We've got to talk about the Women's Tree Climbing World Champion role that you now hold at the same time you get a lot of enjoyment from that we've got to talk about the women's tree clamp climbing world champion role that you now hold for the fifth time what does that actually involve a lot of work a lot of training um uh so the actual event itself the whole the original plan when it first started was to educate the public on what an arborist would do at work. So basically you're mimicking what we would do at work. So the only thing we do not use are chainsaws for obvious reasons.

When we're running at speed, we can't have a sharp object next to sort of 12mm diameter ropes for obvious reasons. But the whole idea was to show the public that an arborist would how they would get into the tree how they would set their ropes how they would climb the tree how they would move freely throughout the canopy um how they could rescue someone in the event of an emergency so there's lots of different elements most of them are you know work around speed because you have to get on with it um but a lot of it is also ability movement um you know being careful with the trees we're not breaking branches and things like that

so there's a lot of elements and in order to get good at that you don't have to be a tree climber for a living but it it definitely helps because you're practicing then obviously every day um but it does take a lot of time outside of work as well. I do a lot of practicing leading up to competition. So, yeah, there's been a lot of hours spent. Is it, and I'm sorry if I'm sounding like I'm simplifying this, but why do you win? Do you win because you get the furthest point or do you win because you've done it in a certain way? So you get points for everything that you do so it so points are given on um your speed

so on the first day there's lots of different preliminary events with five different events and you're given mainly points on speed and your technique and the skill and equipment you use on the second day which is the final finals when you get put into the Masters, it is a timed event, but you're not scored on the time. So you're given, let's say this event gave me 30 minutes. You can use the whole 30 minutes. You can use 20 minutes, 30 minutes, whatever you like. But in that time, you have to accumulate as many points.

And that can be on movement, poise, posture, the things that you say. Yeah, so it's the whole thing. And what do you get out of doing it? Mainly is the knowledge and the skill level. So what I mean by that is when I when I was taught to climb trees at college and then obviously started doing actual tree work yes what I was doing then to climb trees the the ability I had and the equipment and the knowledge was a tiny tiny tiny portion and I I don't think I would be doing this as a career now physically without the the ability

and the skills that I've learned from tree climbing competitions they're really educational you learn something every time you make mistakes you learn how to then overcome those mistakes um so for me it's like an ever-evolving I don't think you could ever be the best in the world because you will always evolve i'm much different than i was when i first won it in 2008 i'm a completely different karma well huge you're always evolving huge congratulations josephine hedger lovely to talk to you i believe you once had a partner at one of the championships called scott forest as well so that's an important point to bring up at this point. Yeah, 2019. Yeah, 2019.

He won the male category. And yeah, the headline was like, Hedger and Forest win world championship. I can't beat that. That's the way this particular interview has to end. Josephine Hedger, all the best. I'll let you get back to the trees. And so it continues.

We got a message here saying, I had a music teacher called Miss Bellringer. I worked at a school where there was both a Miss Whip and a Miss Headlock, not a pair you'd want to cross. The plumber in our village, says Jenny, was Mr Burst. I mean, a long time ago, I had a dentist, another one here called Mr Pick, says Philippa. Mr West, my geography teacher, another.

And I once knew of an optician by the name of Mr Seymour. He always made me chuckle. It can keep going. Another doctor mentioned here, Guy Rash. Right. Love that. Keep it coming. Keep it coming. I did not know this would be such a rich scene, but as ever, that's what I love about live radio and this program in particular you always surprise me well online now is Dame Sheila Hancock and it's lovely to have you on Sheila on a day I suppose where we're talking about a lot of things as we always do on Women's Hour but I was also minded of your words earlier this year because you're just short of 90 yourself and you wrote throughout my life I've been grateful for the Queen's reassuring presence and as we're talking and you also have written about the Royal Family being central to your family's working class culture and you you've described that as

well in the link and I know as we're talking you'll be very struck by and I'm very struck by the crowds and those queuing to to go and see the Queen lying in state at Westminster. What do you make of why people, some people, feel they need to go and pay their respects, Sheila? Good morning. Good morning. I wondered what you were going to do with my name. Well, I would be there if I didn't have a bit of a difficulty walking these days, because I love all that. I love the ceremony if I didn't have a bit of a difficulty walking these days, because I love all that. I love the ceremony and I love everything.

But I have been amazed how moved I've been by this, because she's an old woman. No one knew she was going to die like me. But things have come out about her that have been so moving. And when I was little, it was wartime, remember, and I knew her father and we loved him and he was a good man he didn't want to be king but he did it magnificently and the terrible stutter when we listened to the queen's speech or the king's speech we were worried that he was

going to be able to get through it and then when she took over and when she was a little girl before she took over I was evacuated and bombed out. And it was hell. It was violent hell. And this little voice would come on the radio reassuring us. I think it was the first broadcast the Queen ever did as a young woman. And it was so wonderful that you thought that she was there. And then you see pictures of the Queen Mother stumbling over the ruins of the bombings wearing her fur coats and her high heels and there was something so reassuring and certainly

in the working class culture that I grew up in we we really did love the royals I mean if there was any kind of parade we'd be there and my mum used to make dresses, she used to copy them. I think there were probably patterns came out of the dresses that the princesses wore. And what's come out in the last few weeks, there was one particular thing that moved me terrifically because I've been glued to the telly, was that she went to Aberfam three times. Now, we know that lots of people nowadays get photo opportunities constantly, don't they?

That seems to be the culture. And she went the first time and indeed the official photos and it must have been hell for her because it was such a dreadful event. But then to find out that presumably at her own volition, she went back twice again and the last time to open a new primary school in the place of the one that was ruined. I mean, that shows extraordinary understanding of what her people feel. Yes, I mean, some of the criticism in quarters was that she hadn't gone soon enough

and there'd been a response to that. And then it has come out about the visits since and how that has come. And I mean, I just wonder for you as someone who who's nearly 90 growing up if you like alongside her like that has that has that been something you know the constant in your life must have been there the whole time and and and in in mind if not at front of mind? Yes, it certainly has. I mean, when she got married, we were all having a grey ghastly time after the war. And I think a lot of people sent their clothing coupons to help with her wedding dress. And just that bit of glamour in our lives. I mean, and now we criticise it because it's such wealth and a lot of people are struggling. But at that time, honestly, I think everybody, like my family,

were grateful to see a bit of glitter. And all the stages of her life, all the difficulties she's had with her family and things like that. But she seems, and the great secret is that she's remained unknown, really. We don't really know. But did you get to meet her at any point? I did meet her, yes. I did meet her. How did it go?

Well, not well on my part because she used to have lunches. She and Prince Philip used to have lunches at the palace for a few people that they picked to meet. And the lunch, I remember the pudding had a sort of brittle, you know, brandy snap thing in it. And I had to leave it because I knew that Prince Philip was just opposite me and I knew it was going to fly over and hit him in the face. And I did say one or two tap this thing because I was very left wing in those days. But the worst thing that happened was after the meal, we went into the sitting room and there were loads of dogs i mean lots and

lots of those little whatever they're called the corgis corgis corgis and i trod on one and it yelped and screamed and the queen was magnificent because she took no notice except to say it's its own fault it's the same color as the carpet it was just such a relief that she she just and I think she did that time and time again didn't she and one of the interesting things that comes out again watching the films is she listened I mean most people don't listen to a complete thing that the other person is saying because you're getting ready to say what you want to say but she listened to the end and sometimes at the end said something a little bit inappropriate but you could tell there was a kid from Grenfell was interviewed and she said that she felt that the Queen really cared when she came to Grenfell and she knew that people were going to notice what had happened because she was there.

And so she could look anybody in the eye and hold their attention and make them feel valued. I think that was extraordinary. And I wish we had more diplomats about now. We seem to have lost that power. Now we have King Charles, of course. And yesterday I was myself reporting for the BBC on the Mall and it was an incredibly

striking image of the family walking behind the Queen's coffin the solemnity of that and again at the heart of it a family grieving but on public show which is how the royals live their lives and I wonder your response to him

so far as well having watched him grow up. I think he's done magnificently in the last few days. I really do. I don't know how he's done it. Honest to God, I don't, because he's 73. Mind you, I was quite spry when I was 73. But it, you know, I was so worried about him. I think Scotland did it all so magnificently, the simplicity of the way they dealt with it and the behaviour of the crowds and everything was magnificent. But I was so worried when he was going up the Royal Mile behind the coffin and he had a sword.

And I thought, oh my God, I hope he doesn't trip over the sword. And heavy medals and things on his head. And it's a hell of a hill. I don't know if you've ever been up it, but it really is a bit of a hell to go up. And I thought, and then had to make a speech. Yes. And I think he's been, as has Princess Anne,

they have been so amazingly dutiful. There's also a video of the new king becoming frustrated with a leaking pen when signing a book at Hillsborough Castle, the unofficial residence in Northern Ireland with Camilla Queen Consort, remarking on how the pen was leaking. I know very briefly, if you can for time, you can relate slightly to a pen not working.

Absolutely. I've been doing a book tour and I am absolutely livid when after I've done the speech and I've done everything I should have done, done my duty, it's a leaky pen. I totally sympathise with him. Of course he was gross. Of course he was. I mean, here he was making speeches, climbing up hills,

doing all his things, and somebody couldn't provide him with a not leaky pen. Not good enough. He's right. Thanks, Sheila Hancock. It's always lovely to have you on the programme and hear your experiences and your views, which you always share so generously.

And I know you also used to be a bit of a tree climber, which we can't get into now, but that would have been another whole discussion. Come back, Sheila, and tell me about that next time. Because it was about when I was evacuated. We'll do it again. Thank you for your company today and all those wonderful names. Back tomorrow at 10. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Thank you so much for your time. Join us again for the next one. Do you want to exist in the real world? Audio drama. It's not just TV drama without the pictures. Where are you? It's more like a novel, but with the added texture and energy of sound. In human eyes, a black vortex at the centre of them,

swallowing everything it sees, pulling me towards the precipice. BBC Radio 4 presents Limelight, the podcast for thrilling original audio drama box sets. Jolene, we need to leave now. With incredible news stories told by a stellar cast of actors. I love you too. Subscribe to Limelight on BBC Sounds. So who shot him?

I don't know. No. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story. Settle in. Available now.