Woman's Hour - Julia Hoggett, CEO of the London Stock Exchange

Episode Date: March 24, 2023

It’s fifty years since six newly elected female traders entered the floor of the London Stock Exchange for the first time after 200 years of exclusion. The number of women working in finance reached a peak in 1997 at almost six-hundred-thousand, but has dropped by more than thirty percent to around four-hundred-thousand last year. Half a century after the first women were allowed onto the floor at the London Stock Exchange, the ‘inequity’ that has held women back in the industry has still not been fully redressed. We talk to Julia Hoggett, CEO of the London Stock Exchange and Beryl Gayler, one of the first female dealers there.Soaps and dramas are increasingly making mainstream issues an integral part of their storylines. Take the current Eastenders storyline following Lola Pearce’s terminal brain tumour diagnosis or Jean Slater’s battle with ovarian cancer in 2019. But what about a drama series that explores a cancer diagnosis through conversations on a social media app? The charity Breast Cancer Now has created the UK’s first group messaging series which consists of voice notes, messages and videos sent between four close friends as they navigate an unexpected breast cancer diagnosis together. Anita is joined by two of the women who inspired the story, Kelly Short and Lurline Thomas, as well as the Associate Director of Nursing and Health Information at Breast Cancer Now, Sally Kum, to discuss whether this could be Wea new way of supporting women with cancer. Suzi Ruffell is on a mission to find the lighter moments in life as she navigates motherhood, touring the country and anxiety. The comedian's latest show Snappy is a series of confessional stories about settling down, living life with her "bossy toddler" and worrying about absolutely everything. Suzi Ruffell joins Anita Rani. Presenter: Anita Rani Producer: Lisa Jenkinson Studio Manager: Duncan Hannant

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Anita Rani and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Good morning, welcome to the programme. It's been 50 years since the first women were allowed onto the trading floor at the London Stock Exchange. So today I'll be talking to Beryl Gaylor, who stepped onto the stock exchange in the 70s after being asked to interview for the job. She went from being a broker's clerk to a dealer with the boys on the trading floor. So this morning, I'd like to hear your stories of being plucked from obscurity to be given an opportunity, where the spotlight has been shone on you when someone

noticed little old you. Whether that's a job offer that changed your life or you were picked to captain the school netball team or you were the underdog who got the lead in the school play or maybe the love of your life appeared and swept you off your feet. My story as an 11-year-old, I went along to support a friend who wanted to audition for a fashion show at school. I was the youngest and the shortest person to walk the catwalk with no intention of being in it myself. And guess what? Yes, it was me that got picked. My modelling career didn't take off, but I'll never forget the moment the PE teacher pointed at me and said, yes, you, Anita.

I was the last to be selected. And the look on my friend's face. She wasn't happy. So the moment you got your moments, get in touch with me in the usual way, the text number 84844. You can email us via the website or you can send me a WhatsApp or a voice note. It's 03700 100 444. So the moment your life changed, where the spotlight was shone on you. Also in the programme, hundreds of thousands of North Korean women are being trafficked into China and the situation is being described as a real-life handmaid's tale. We'll be finding out why. Also comedian Susie Ruffell is back on tour with a new show called Snappy. She'll be here to tell us all about it and how she's managing life on the road

as well as having a, as she describes her, a bossy toddler. And a new online drama to help women with breast cancer with a difference. All of that, plus messages from you. That text number once again, 84844. But first, half a century after the first women were allowed onto the floor at the London Stock Exchange, the inequity that has held women back remains. On the 26th of March 1973, six newly elected female traders walked onto the floor

after 200 years of exclusion. But the number of women working in finance has dropped by more than 30% since its peak in 1997. Well, hit BBC and HBO series Industry captured city life for female traders. Here's a clip. Hi, Harper. It's Jessie Bloom. Hi, Jessie. Sick of commenting on the direction of the wind. Shall we make it blow? I don't follow. Let's find out how essential you are. What have you learned about our friend Anna and her interests? I'm close. I'm close. Do you mind holding?

Yes, I know that I always say that this is a matter of urgency, but this really is a matter of urgency. And I'm really sorry that I'm always in such a rush with you, but I really need your help. I need access to Anna now. That's Mahala Herald playing Harper in the BBC HBO series Industry, which is very very popular. With me now

is the real deal, former trader Beryl Gaylor who worked as a trader for 32 years until her retirement and also the chief executive officer of the London Stock Exchange Julia Hoggett so delighted to have you both with me to talk about this Beryl I'm going to start with you let's go back in. What year was it and what was it like walking onto the trading floor for the very first time? I first went down there in 19, mid 70s it was. I had already been in the office for some time and was getting rather bored there. You were a clerk as I mentioned. Yes. And the dealing partner heard I wanted to move and he come down for an interview. I said, oh, I don't think so.

So you were invited to interview? Yes. That's great. Was that unusual? Yes, I think so. But I'd been with the company quite a while anyway. And the chap I was taking over from was going into the army. And he obviously was called the corporal and he was going in two months but when I got down

there started the job he went in two weeks so it's a case of running around trying to find out the way it worked and everything but it was quite exciting the first time I walked onto the floor was quite terrifying because some days you just never saw another woman then you obviously later on there was a lot more within but uh what was the job a blue button you start as so what did you have to do grade up to a dealer and you go around getting prices where you did then go around to get in prices and sending them back to the office to the institution department and then they come back not to me with an order at the time when I was first there but to the dealer I worked with and then later on I became a dealer and then they used to ring me we had radios bleeps and our own telephone

on the floor and things like that so it was quite good see the first thing Julia that I think about when we when I think about the city is wolf of wall street I'm sorry to bring it up but you know it is the first you know you think is that is that the behavior is that the culture of the city that you have to put up with? And we'll ask you about what your experience was, Beryl, but is that? No. Look, I think about the city. I'm a former sociologist specialising in sub-Saharan East Africa. I went into the city to learn about how the least developed countries in the world operate in the global economy. And I've stayed in the city for the last 26 years

because it is endlessly fascinating and it has a really important purpose. Our job as a stock exchange is as a convener of capital. It's to bring together those who have capital with those who need capital in service of an objective. And a lot of that is to create the jobs, the growth, the investment in the new products that we actually need as an economy. And everybody who works in the city is actually serving that objective. Yes, there is trading.

The trading dynamic now is very, very different. We measure trading round trips, which is the equivalent of Beryl talking to somebody on the floor and then phoning the office and then coming back. We now measure that in microseconds and before it was in phone calls. So it has transformed transformed but the culture is is very much acting in service of of that greater objective I think. So what was the culture like Beryl there in the 70s? Yeah you had to have a sense of humor. What does that mean? Well it was

quite amazing you know I turned up one day and it was summer, yellow dress with red border, yellow tights, that particular time you normally wear your tights the same colour as your dress. And I went in to get my prices, was confronted with chicken walks all around the pitch. So I said, thank you very much, got my prices, went down, came back, and he gave me a bag, and it was all full of pennies for me to go out and buy myself some new tights. I mean, that was humour. That was humour. It was quite good.

How did the men on the floor react to you? I mean, I read somewhere that there were lots of women had nicknames. The few women that were on the floor all had nicknames. There are some. There are some. Did you have a nickname? No. There were people being called Night Nurse, Grimsby Trawler.

Night Nurse was a nurse. Oh, she was a nurse. She was a nurse. Grimsby Trawler. I'm not really sure why she was called Grimsby Trawler, but she might have come from Grimsby. What did you love about the job? Excitement. Excitement. People were very nice. It was good fun. Good fun. It was exciting to go to work some days. You said you have to have a good sense of humour. Does that mean you basically had to put up with the male sense of humour? No, no, it's just the schoolboy mentality that was there. You know, if something happened, you just laughed you know it's because what's the alternative yes yes there's no harm there was no harm in it you know it was good fun you gave as

good as you got you know absolutely i mean i mean when you when you're working in a male environment we talk about it a lot on women's hour there there is an element of having to, I mean, I'm asking you actually, Julia, how much of you has to adapt to the sort of male culture that is around you to survive? I think the transition that's happened in the last 50 years is an illustration of everything that women have had to go through. I genuinely feel today it's very different than it was back in Bowles' time. But I do think women still have to make adaptations. I quite provocatively say that I came out on trading floors two years into my career.

And I think I was given a bit of a pass as someone who was, in a sense, allowed to be a bit more bolshie in a meeting or taking a bit more control of a situation because I was somehow considered to be somewhere between a very feminine woman and a bloke and that gave me the space to create my own style of leadership so I almost think it was valuable it also meant that my life didn't have to adjust to some of the issues that a lot of other women do because I'm not the biological mother of my children so a lot of the issues that a lot of other women do because I'm not the biological mother of my children. So a lot of the issues that we still face have not gone away. And I very outspokenly say that people roll me out as proof of diversity and inclusion. I'm proof of all the things we haven't fixed yet, rather than that we have. But I do think that what has changed is that the culture in the city was the trading floor culture on the stock exchange.

And after Big Bang, all of those trading floors were disseminated to all the different institutions. And actually, investment banking and banking in general has worked very hard on its culture over the last 20 years. And you've been part of that. Yeah, and I've seen it change. And the language has changed and what people will say and expectations around inclusion are very, very different than they were then. So why are so many women leaving the sector? 200,000 fewer women now work in finance than 25 years ago. What's happened? So I do think some of it is the nature of the role.

So a lot of banks will have found in the past that by total number of staff, they had more women than men. But those women were very often in the sort of roles that Beryl came out of, you know, the clerical roles, the administrative roles. With digitization, an awful lot of those roles were no longer required. We used to have hundreds of people in the settlements department at the Sook Exchange. Now that's an almost straight through processing technology process. And so you don't need as many people. But the people who are the traders, who are the managers, who are the leaders,

miraculously they're still in seat and I think that has been one of the reasons why we've seen the decline that we have and that's why the focus now on inclusion in the city is how many women are sitting in executive roles and senior leadership roles and can make those changes from within that make it easier for the next generation of women to come through. It's a big question but you are the right person to ask because you've been talking about diversity and inclusion in the

city since the 90s. So what needs to be done to achieve equity? The simple reality is we have to stop doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result. We actually have to do things differently. I fundamentally believe that to create true diversity and inclusion, you need a data strategy. And that data strategy has to do two things. It has to tell you what your situation is, but it also has to help describe how you've got to this situation. So what are the differences in journey of men and women through organizations? More and more companies do do that, and they track that, and then they're taking action on the back of it.

But it's actually about changing some of the expectations we have. Women still disproportionately have the burden of the work of the work and the work of the home. And we have trading books that disproportionately have the burden of the work of the work and the work of the home. And we have trading books that have traditionally followed the sun. Why can't they follow the school bell? There is no reason. But you need to make conscious decisions to change the way you organise yourself as institutions. Well, that makes sense. We've followed the sun. Why not follow the school bell? Are open to that increasingly yes yes absolutely because the culture particularly i mean it's a london culture generally but particularly in the city

is you just work work work work work and you're not if you're the first person to get up and leave is i think covid changed that because i think the city immediately had to go home in the same way that everybody else now a lot of trading floors were given exceptions to stay to have people coming into the office but actually it proved that you could work in that industry. It had an incredibly successful and dynamic year in the middle of COVID because there was so much work that needed to get done. And lo and behold, people could do it by working in different ways. So that balloon of we can only do it this way has been popped to a degree, I think. We just need to keep the momentum up and not go backwards.

I mean, you only took two weeks maternity when after after your children were born what made you go back to work so quickly well I'm the non-biological mother um so I was in many regards treated like the father we were in Ireland at the time and Ireland actually only had three days so I was the one who instituted a mandatory two weeks for everybody on my desk who was a parent just because I felt it was the right thing to do. Because you're a woman in the job. Yeah. But I also know that my career continued to go up and up and up and my kids were nought to six.

And that is not what happens for most people. So that's one of the reasons I feel I have to speak out about it. What do women bring to the city? Very interesting question. One of the things I say is I see very few things as binary, including football matches. And as a supporter of Manchester United, then that's been a challenge for recent years. But actually, I think that means you can very often not set things up as oppositional, but realise how you can create things that benefit everybody. And women will often go round the back of a problem

and look at it very differently and come up with different strategic solutions. The way you create the best possible risk management is by having the greatest diversity of perspectives around the table in order to understand how to solve a problem. And that isn't by everybody thinking the same way and having the same background and having the same experiences. And I think institutions, and indeed the regulator,

is now very well aware that the more diversity of perspective and background you have, the better and more dynamic institutions can become. Things have changed a lot, haven't they, Beryl? Yeah, I mean, I left school at 15. Yeah. And wouldn't have dreamt that I would eventually get into the role that I did.

But because I was in the back office and I knew people and I voiced my opinion I was getting bored and whatever and the partner came forward and invited me down I really wouldn't have applied for the job because I didn't think I fitted the well there must have been something special about you when I was reading reading about you, I thought, well, that's interesting in itself, that you were picked to come, especially at that time, where women just weren't in those roles. So then what was it about you? I don't know.

My dealing partner had to take the retired senior partner out to lunch to tell him we had a woman on the floor trading for us. He had to warm him up. Yeah. How did he take it? Well, one chap walked in with a beard and they were never allowed to have beards at our company. And he stood up and the senior partner said, glad to see you haven't grown a beard and turned into a woman, you know, to one of the old chaps. And that's how it

went on. It was all very good fun, subtle, you know, and to one of the old chaps. And that's how it went on. It was all very good fun, subtle, you know. I just wonder how you survive when, you know, you're a trailblazer in an industry that we're still having conversations about now. You know, the real issues that need to be solved. How do we get equity? How do we get women in there?

How do we change the culture? How did you survive it? And I use the word survive because I... I think you have to go into it with your eyes open and as the sense of humor is the main thing the main thing and want to get on well and basically um hope you do do well. Did you get as far as you wanted to go? Yes. Yes. Because in 2000, I was head of dealing then,

which I would never have dreamt that in the past either. Do you miss it? You just have to prove yourself. Yeah. Yeah, well, yes. It's in companies' interest, Julia, surely, to get more women, because research suggests that women help companies make more money.

Yep. Yep. So I have a very simple logic for this, which is diversity and inclusion is are, say, 35% of an awful lot of global organizations, then it's pretty rubbish resource management, actually, to say that we only want that population of our staff to be able to thrive. To create the best value in an organization, you want everybody to be able to bring their best and bring themselves to those solutions. But also recognize that women and men actually do think about problems differently and come at issues differently. And sometimes we ignore the objective truth. So there's an awful lot of evidence that suggests that women in investing in asset management and in venture do very, very well. And yet disproportionately, they're underrepresented. And the amount of money that is going to female-led institutions is still way below where it should be. It's growing, and Alison Rose's report made a big difference to that. But

actually, sometimes you just have to point out the obvious, which is you're doing stuff that's spiting yourself by keeping doing it the old ways. And you could produce so much more value if you were more inclusive. And you are now in a very, very, very senior position. You've worked your way to the top. You're so impressive. But you also know the advantages you have and you know how you were able to play it's the game to get to where you are and Beryl's generation you know we know this you have to kind of get on with the scent you have to put up with the sense of humor young women now don't

want to have to do that no and they shouldn't they shouldn't have to no and Beryl shouldn't have had to no actually exactly um and we had a wonderful luncheon yesterday to celebrate uh these trailblazers. And the point I made was we're standing on the shoulders of giants. Absolutely. But my observation from meeting a lot of you is that actually they don't think of themselves that way. And I hope actually after our celebration over the course of this week or so, you do now. Because you have blazed a trail for the rest of us to follow.

And our duty is to keep that baton and pass it on to the next generation. Absolutely. Absolutely. Beryl, would you encourage young women to go and work in the city? Yes, I would. Yes, I would. Yes. You have to prove yourself and prove a point and you'll be fine.

You know, it's interesting. It's good fun. You know, it's interesting it's good fun you know it's another life i've the people i met in in stock market floor you know they're lifelong friends now my husband go and i go out with them and you know yeah it's good fun and also we need more women to enter the enter finance so that they can ultimately change the landscape of the culture. And design products for women, you know. Amen to that.

It's not just women working in financial services, it's consuming financial services. Absolutely. It's been such a pleasure speaking to both of you. Thank you so much, Beryl Gaylor and Julia Hoggart. Thank you very much. Thank you for having us. 84844 is the number to text.

I was asking you if there's been a moment in your life, based on Beryl's story, where she was asked to come and interview for the job, where your life has changed. Someone's been in touch to say, how incredibly refreshing, oh this is nice, how incredibly refreshing it is to hear women who worked

in a male environment and how was entirely happy doing so, instead of moaning about being oppressed. That generation of women were so much more sensible and resilient than the current generation. I'm highly happy doing so. Instead of moaning about being oppressed, that generation of women were so much more sensible and resilient than the current generation. I went on to qualify as a lawyer and have been working against injustice since now running a charity. 84844, keep those messages coming in. Now, hundreds of thousands of North Korean women and girls are being trafficked in China as they flee repression in their home country.

The defectors face systematic rape, sexual slavery, forced marriage, forced labour and cyber sex trafficking in China's red zone. Well, Sophia Evangelou is from Global Rights Compliance, an international legal partnership of human rights advisors. And she joins me now to tell us more about this. Welcome to Woman's Hour, Sophia. You describe the situation as a real life handmaid's tale. What's happening? Hi, Anita, to you and your listeners, and thank you for taking the time to speak about this issue.

So essentially, hundreds of thousands of North Korean women and girls who are fled North Korea are being at extreme risk of grave and human rights violations. That includes prostitution, human and cyber sex trafficking, forced abortion, other forms of sexual and gender-based violence. And the reality of that is women as primary breadwinners are trying through informal economic activities to flee from North Korea and enter China so that they can find a better future and support their families back in North Korea. And they end up being sexually exploited or become victims of forced labor by organized

criminal groups and networks. What's the scale of the problem? So there hasn't been an up-to-date research on the estimates of North Korean women and girls currently being trafficked. Last authoritative report by the UN estimated around 100,000 of North Korean people being inside China and facing human rights violations. Given the perceived complexity and the challenges in tracking and uncovering these operations, there is an up-to-date report that covers the issues extensively.

It's also very difficult given the harsh zero COVID policy that China introduced the last couple of years to combat the COVID-19 pandemic and the border closures. Hence, our partners, Seoul-based North Korean human rights CSOs have been struggling to document and collect information that can be verified on what the current situation is. I mentioned that they're being trafficked into China's red zone. What is the red zone? Thank you, Anita. So the red zone is not a term that has been widely used by the community, but it essentially encompasses three provinces with ethnic Korean women, the three Korean communities known to be prevalent for human trafficking,

sexual exploitation of North Korean women and girls. These three provinces are the Jilin province, the Heilongjiang province, to be prevalent for human trafficking, sexual exploitation of North Korean women and girls. These three provinces are the Jilin province, the Heilongjiang province and the Liaoning province, which are border regions with North Korea and China. Okay. Is there much support in China? Well, unfortunately, no. China has been following a hostile policy towards North Korean people, including women and girls. Contrary to other international actors who have been treating North Korean people fleeing the regime as refugees, China is treating those people as illegal economic migrants. And this, of course, creates a situation where women are in hiding with the fear of being discovered by the Chinese authorities.

And this essentially prompts them to fall victims of criminal gangs and human trafficking rings who are operating without any implications from the Chinese authorities, essentially. And how lucrative is human trafficking in China? Someone making a lot of money from this. Yes, indeed. And that's why organized criminal groups, you know, continue to and are trying to expand their operations.

According to reports by the state, to reports by the US State Department, this creates, it's a lucrative business and it creates around $105 million per year for organized criminal groups. What action do you want to see from the international community? So I think, and without wanting to downplay the seriousness of the situation in Ukraine, I think it's important for an imperative for the international community to recognise the human rights abuses and atrocities taking place inside China and call on China to revisit its policy, as well as put an end to the operations currently undertaken

by criminal groups who are operating with impunity, essentially. I think it's important to hold China to account, as well as North Korea, and either bring this at the UN level or during bilateral meetings with China and for policymakers to raise awareness about this issue and call on China to respond to the allegations currently being made. Are people able to talk to some of these women who have been trafficked? Have you spoken to them and what are they telling you

and what's the situation for them? So the situation currently, the North Korean women and girls currently in China who are in hiding, it's very difficult, of course, for humanitarian actors as well as activists to reach out to them because they are an immediate risk of being subjected to human rights violations or even having threats to their life. So, however, a number of North Korean escapees have managed to arrive to South Korea. And these

women and girls have been interviewed by our partner organizations. Again, Seoul-based North Korean organizations, such as Database Center for North Korean Human Rights, or Transitional Justice Working Group, who have been working tirelessly to interview those women and essentially shed light to what has happened to them and identify what are the harms that they have suffered, provide them psychosocial support and raise awareness of what has happened to these women and that essentially explain that situation is perpetuating and ongoing and the international community has the responsibility to put to a halt

the activities and essentially engage with China. Sophia, Evangeline, thank you very much for speaking to me about that very important issue. Thank you. Now on Monday, we will be looking at how relationships and sex education is taught in schools and we're keen to hear from parents who'd like to take part on the program that's 10 a.m on monday questions like should we be teaching children for example about the dangers of pornography before they see it or should the emphasis be on attempting to restrict their access to it in the first place are you happy with how rse is taught in your children's school if you would like to take part in the program on monday get in touch with us via email go to our website if you want to

email us you can leave your contact details and you can of course take part in the program anonymously lots of you getting in touch about the moment when the spotlight has shone on you when your life changed for whatever reason and lots of you talking about the first interview I did with Julia and Beryl about life in the city Anita I worked in the city from 2007 to 2014 women who had a baby requested to work four day weeks in order to come back to work they were told no so they left sexual harassment and abuse was routinely laughed off by both men and women I left because of this toxic environment and thank you for that i will keep you anonymous um on to when the spotlight was shone on you my special moment i moved to stoke-on-trent with my new husband after getting a master's in chemical engineering i got a job temping at royal dalton there were so many temps

i ended up sitting in the manager's office on my own and with no one to talk to I raced through the work and was interviewed for a permanent job I rose through the ranks for 12 years then set up a business in ceramics which is on its way up love that twist of events um someone else said I was a young short haul cabin crew instructor when I was picked as one of the two people chosen to train a new crew aboard Concorde. That would have been about 40 years ago. How exciting. And another one here. I went to an all-white Irish Catholic school. When I was seven years old, I was picked to play Molly Malone.

All the other girls complained to the teacher because I was black. The teacher said, we picked Andrea because she was the best singer. That was 1972. 84844 is the number to text if you want to tell me about the moment the spotlight shone on you for the very first time or indeed anything else you've heard on the programme. We'd love to hear from you.

On to my next guest. Very excited to talk to this woman. If you don't have anxiety, you're not paying attention. Those are the words of the comedian Susie Ruffell, who's currently on tour with her latest show, Snappy. Her set explores the funny bits of being a new mother to a bossy toddler in what she says is a panic-induced post-pandemic world.

From debunking myths about having it all to navigating motherhood on the road, Susie says hers is a comedy rooted in confessional storytelling. And she joins me now on the programme. Welcome to Woman's Hour. Hello. So lovely to speak to you i think you

are nice to chat to you you're so good suzy i just want to put it out there total fangirl moment you're just oh yeah so nice flawless brilliant tell us about the new show where did this where did snappy the journey of snappy begin well i started writing it um uh probably about 10 months ago. I thought, well, I want to go back out on the road. I love doing stand-up. The great thing about stand-up is you have autonomy, which is something that you don't have a lot of in the creative industry, which I'm sure you've experienced as well. You know, if you're waiting to do TV shows or radio bits, whatever else, you're always waiting for someone to make a decision on your behalf to whether you're going to work. Whereas with stand-up, I can just write something and take it on the road. And there's something that is so thrilling about that, about booking

a tour, knowing you're going out and having a blank page. I find that the most exciting, the beginning is, yeah, it's really, really exciting. So I knew that I wanted to talk about becoming a mum. I knew that I wanted to talk about becoming a mum. I knew that I wanted to talk about the having it all myth. I knew I wanted to talk about the fact that I really had my anxiety under control until I became a mum and then it all went out the window and I had to learn how to be less anxious as a mum. And I knew that I wanted to, yeah, take it around the country and, yeah, just share the funny, thoughtful,

hopefully affirming things to other families and people, not families, children aren't allowed at the show, it's far too many rude bits, but to people that come along. Well, that's what you do with your comedy so brilliantly. You kind of mine your own life experience um as some comedians do but and you'd kind of it's like you give us the just a female perspective that is just so on point and we'll talk about some of the like basically your smear test stand up which is yeah that one it's just no it's just i'm gonna let you tell it because it's your you know this the experience of going for a smear test is.

Well, I just thought, I just thought I've not really seen a comic talk about going for a smear test. And it's something that happens to, I don't know, 50, is it 51%, 55% of the population? Well, you know, hopefully. And so I thought, I think this is a really funny thing to talk about. I think women will really get on board with it. And I think it's interesting for men to bring men into the conversation and go, you are not going to believe that we have to keep our t-shirts on and take our knickers off.

And you feel like Winnie the Pooh. And I just thought it's a funny thing to share with people. So I started doing it just in club gigs. And then when I was asked to host Live at the Apollo just before Christmas, I thought, yeah, that's probably going to be one of the routines that I do and then it when I went off on telly and lots of people loved it and then I clipped it up and put it online and it's had like millions of views which is bonkers but I think that men love that routine as much as women and so I think it's I think for a long time it was considered like oh you know will know, will men be able to, will audiences be able to, you know, watch a woman and, oh, God, is she going to talk about this? Is she going to talk about that? Oh, God, she. And and so I have always really mined my my working class background and my life.

And because that's sort of fun. That's the sort of funny that I like. That's the sort of comedy that really makes me laugh. And I like sharing a bit too much. I like that sort of confessional element of saying, do we all feel like this? Do we all feel anxious? Are we all doing this? Are we all trying our best all of the time and feeling like we're not quite smashing it? Because when people laugh, to me, that's them saying, yeah, yeah, yeah, me too. And then I go home feeling less stressed.

So let's talk about some of the stuff that you've mentioned that's in Snappy. So the anxiety and how much worse it's got now that you've got a toddler. Yeah, I mean, I think it happened like after the pandemic went there I think like during the pandemic I was sort of fine even though there was sort of no there wasn't a lot of work but I had enough bits and pieces to keep me going which I felt very very

grateful for and then post-pandemic and and she was probably about or 10 months a year then when we were sort of getting back into the world I I just yeah my anxiety just creeped up on me in a way that I had sort of in my early 20s I really felt like now I'm in my late 30s I really thought I got a handle on it but it was sort of a real lesson that you know it's always sort of there in the background and you have to sort of manage your mental health and I think it's I think it's the same for a lot of people there, you know, good days and bad days or times when it peaks or times when it feels really overwhelming. And then other times when you think, oh God, I can't believe I was so worried about that stupid thing. Why did I worry so much about that? But it's about riding the wave and it's

about navigating it. And for me, it's about having therapy and going to hot yoga. They're the things that just keeps me on an even keel. But I think it's good to bring that stuff to the fore and to laugh it. Where does the writing and stand-up comedy fit in? How does that help with the anxiety? Because it sort of makes the thought of standing on stage and being funny. I mean, I do, like you, very public-facing job. But just stand up, written a memoir a memoir you know put it all out there

that's one thing but the thought of stand-up comedy just makes me makes me feel physically sick so how do you ride your anxiety and get on stage and talk about your anxiety it's like a different gear that i find um it's it's very normal for me now. I think that's the thing. I think now I think about like 25 year old me who went down to a basement in King's Cross and did five minutes of stand up to like 11 people and a dog. I don't know how she did it. Yeah. That's what I find because when you're not very good, it's really, really hard. And now I'm at a stage where I'm not saying everyone thinks that I'm good, but I've got an audience that love coming to see me and that is and that and that is an enormous privilege and so I sort of I'm in a lovely position now where I walk out and people are excited to hear what I've

got to say but the early days that's when it's really hard because that's when you're so hit and miss because you haven't quite worked out yet the rhythm of a joke and that you need to you need to put the funniest word last for it to hit you know all the the mathematics of stand-up and getting it all in the right order but um and so that bit is terrifying once you've worked out how to do it it's actually just a thrill and I think the highs the lows don't feel as low and the highs don't feel as high you know once upon a time if I had a bad gig it would haunt me for a week. Now, if I have a mediocre one, I'm like, yeah, you win some, you lose some. And same, if you have a fantastic gig, once upon a time, I'd be riding high for weeks and thinking, oh, God, they were like, I'm Michael McIntyre.

This is amazing. And now I sort of go, God, that was fun. Can I please have a glass of wine? Yeah, lovely. And it's just, yeah, it's a ride, isn Can I please have a glass of wine? Yeah, lovely. Yeah, it's a ride, isn't it? A lot of the show is about being a queer mother. How important is it for you to discuss that on stage?

I think it's really important to just put, so for me, it's always been about putting my life on stage. And it's certainly something I wanted to talk about. And I've got a very mixed audience of gay, straight, somewhere in between, lots of different types of people come to the show and everybody is welcome that's uh that's how I always want it to feel and um I really wanted to put out I wanted it to be relatable and funny and I wanted straight people in the room to really connect to it in the same way that queer people would because I think that talking about it it's something we don't hear an awful lot of you know previous guest Julia was talking about being a mum and then going back to

work um and sort of people seeing her as maybe the dad role yeah and I think it's I I think it's really important to put out there the different ways uh to parenthood the different journeys and and you know some people are raised by their auntie and some people are raised by their gran some people have all sorts of setups and our little girl happens to have two mums and I really in my in my deepest anxiety when I really worry it's about the future world that she's going to inherit and it's about the potential sort of rub off of homophobia that she might receive even if she's, but just because she's got two mums. And so in a strange sort of way, being totally honest, part of the show, that little bit of the show where I talk about that,

it's about me sort of thinking, well, maybe you've never met anyone like me. And maybe you've never met anyone like my family, but hopefully by getting to know me over this hour and a half and me making you laugh, if there's like a queer mum or a queer dad at your school, you might be like, oh, I never realised that you feel like there's an extra hurdle. Maybe I'm going to make a bit more of an effort or maybe I'm going to invite that kid around. One of the things I talk about, as I say, I worry about her not getting invited to a birthday party. If there's some, if a kid's got really homophobic parents, that's like my greatest fear. And if it's someone that didn't have a lot of friends at school,

I really don't want her to feel like that. And so I'm hoping that by talking about it and letting people know that on stage, in some very minor way, it might just put out just a little bit of extra kindness, just a little bit of extra gentleness. That's the dream. That's lovely. I'm not trying to, I've never wanted to be the kind of stand-up that sort of shoves my politics or my uh social politics or anything like that down people's throats I've always wanted to be someone that is funny first that's the most

important thing to me I'm a stand-up and I want to make you laugh but also if I can just open the door to my world and just sort of go here's the thing I worry about or here's something about me and maybe you don't know anyone that's quite like me then that would be really super as well I think you do that I think you don't do it really successfully um as a as a queer woman in this in this landscape I think you know just by being you and being your presence you are doing something different and changing the landscape of what it means to be a comedian in Britain. And I just wonder, you know, the struggles you've had to go to to get to the place you're in.

Yeah, I think there was certainly a time when I would be, it would be like when I first started out and I was doing the clubs. So going all around the country, I mean, the miles that I did in a Nissan Micra would blow your mind. I went all over the country to do gigs, 10 minutes here, five minutes there, just to try and work out, am I still funny in Liverpool? Am I funny in Manchester? Oh, am I funny on the Isle of Wight? You just have to go everywhere to find out if your material travels

and if you're growing your set and working out exactly who you are on stage. And then there were times when I would be homophobically heckled before I got to the mic. Someone would shout out something abusive. Someone would shout something, I mean, sort of the worst thing that you can think of, really, really grim stuff would be shouted at me. And for a long time I had to sort of have an... Did you can think of really really grim stuff would be shouted at me and for a long time did you still get on stage yeah yeah I sort of thought no I'm not going to you don't get to win and and and you know what more often than not I what ended up happening

is I would have I had like an arsenal in my like in my metaphorical on stage backpack where I would have all these put downs you know you know you know it would always it would very often be a man that would be shouting something out and you know something that I can't say on the radio at this time in the morning but about the fact that maybe it's guys like him that meant that there are women like me you know um but um and so I got very good at dealing with with that sort of thing and then you grow and you grow and you grow and then you take shows up to the Edinburgh Festival and you slowly find your audience and then doing a bit of telly is something that really helps and that's been something that's I've been really lucky to do a lot of tv shows but then some

I've had tv producers say things to me like we just don't know where to put you and I know it's a sexuality thing because I know that they don't say it to put you and I know it's a sexuality thing because I know that they don't say it because I ask my I've got you know a lot of my best friends are female comics and I say does that guy say that to you and they're like oh no he doesn't say that to me and I've had TV producers say could you just not wear a suit on the show oh wow and I go well if you book me I come as me I feel really confident in a suit I will be better on your panel show in a suit so can I just wear a suit but you know it's uh I'm very aware of my privilege uh you know I'm I'm a white woman I'm a cis woman I uh I I've got a lot of privilege um and so I really don't want to be someone that

says oh you know it's so hard for you know what I mean but at the same time yes I think there have been opportunities where people have gone, oh God, we don't know what to do with her. Let's get one of the girly girls to stand next to one of the boys because we trust that, that that works. Yeah. And hopefully things will change. I'm having, you know, a lovely time at the moment. And as I said, right at the beginning,

I need to like having stand up being so autonomous and being the thing I'm so lucky I'm so privileged at the moment I'm on the road a lot of the shows are sold out and people are thrilled that I'm there and that is the thing for me the stand up how are you managing that as well as having as well as having a toddler um it's it's spinning plates I'm very lucky I have an incredible agent called Flo who organizes my life in a wonderful way and also um I don't do more than three tour shows a week so I don't miss more than three bedtimes and I'm there and I'm and it means that sometimes I'm a bit sort of tired in the morning and you've been able to you've been able to do that you've been able to say this is you know my my agency are all really important my manager

knows that you know I'm only going to get this period of time with her for a little bit and she is more important than my career she you know she wins and so if it means that there's a year where I'm not working quite as much uh but I'm but but she feels like we've got a great relationship then then I've won as well it's been such a pleasure talking to you it's always nice to chat yeah i can't wait to come and see it uh you're welcome anytime we'll do it's the tour's called snappy thank you thank you so many of you getting in touch with um things that you're hearing on the program um the only other comic i've heard talking about smears was the mighty ben elton someone's been jane's been in touch to say and jillian about smears was the mighty Ben Elton someone's been Jane's been in touch to say and Gillian has said I was the first young black woman to be appointed to a director's role in a hospital in 2004 I was spotted by an amazing CEO who saw something in me I'd not seen in myself

oh that's very moving I was an interim role for six months but I got the role permanently there are now many more directors and CEOs from BAME backgrounds in the NHS. And that's how you change the system. Now, soaps and dramas are increasingly making mainstream issues an integral part of their storylines. Take the current EastEnders storyline following Lola Pierce's terminal brain tumour or Jean Slater's battle with ovarian cancer in 2019. But what about a drama series that explores a cancer diagnosis

through conversations on a social media app? The charity Breast Cancer Now has created the UK's first group messaging app series, which consists of voice notes, messages and videos sent between four close friends as one of them gets an unexpected cancer diagnosis. Here's a clip. Hi, girls. Sorry, excuse the breathing. I'm out with the dog. This is a bit of a weird one. So apologies for bringing down the mood. This is not a message I ever expected to leave. And I'm sorry. I'm sorry to leave it in the message, but I just couldn't say it to your faces. Right. So basically I have breast cancer. I just found out a couple of weeks ago.

I found a lump. I went to the doctor. I got referred. I got poked and prodded and all that. And I'm having an operation on Friday. And it's not the whole tit. It's called a lumpectomy. So they only take a little bit, just a little bit of it. Just a little bit. And God knows what that's going to look like. So could this new format be a way of supporting women with breast cancer? I'm going to be speaking to Kelly Short and Lurleen Thomas, two women who inspired the series. But to find out more about the chat, which is what it's called,

let me start with Sally Kum, Associate Director of Nursing and Health information at breast cancer now uh sally tell me why you decided to create a series like this i watched it i got i got hooked it's basically like a whatsapp voice notes and photos between four friends discussing someone getting their uh diagnosis where did this idea come from well obviously at breast cancer Now our role is to inform and support anyone affected by breast cancer and for us you know we really want to to do that in a way that people will resonate with so that we can reach as many people as possible. So you know the idea of this resonating with lots of people who are part of a group with their friends

and they're messaging each other, that this would bring people in, people would resonate with the story, they would be drawn into the story and be able to watch that unfold and really think about the impact of breast cancer on a group of women. Explain to the listeners what they'd see if they go to the website and open the chat. Yeah, so if they go to the website, open the chat, it's in that format of a messaging group.

So people would see video content, pictures, voice notes, like you just showed the clip of, and text. And you can just then be immersed within this conversation between friends and there's laughter and there's tears and there's the impact of breast cancer that's integrated within the life of all these women. And having been a nurse in the NHS for some time,

people come for treatment and a diagnosis of breast cancer, but their life comes along with them. And you do get sucked in very quickly. You feel like you've become one of their friends just because it's so intimate i'm going to bring kelly kelly and lillian in here because they they it's why they you've got the story where you got the stories from kelly why did you want to be involved in something like this um i've worked with breast cancer now for for a really long time and they supported me through my own breast cancer diagnosis and for me I think with my experiences I coped really well physically with the treatment that I had

but it was really the emotional aspect the way that breast cancer affects your whole life that really isn't spoken about enough this aims to promote and encourage sort of more open, honest conversations about the impacts that breast cancer has, and not only on the patient, the person who's diagnosed, but also on their support network, on their friends, on their family. And with so many of us being diagnosed with breast cancer and indeed other types of cancer as well, and people living with and beyond cancer for much longer

um it's really important that as a society we understand the sort of wider impacts i call them collateral damage i think cancer leaves behind physical and emotional scars it's often those emotional scars that take much longer to heal so the chat is exploring some of those some of those aspects and I'm really sort of honoured to have paid a you know played a small part of it. Leline you were diagnosed with breast cancer in 2016 what aspect of your cancer journey was the hardest thing to talk to friends about and family? Good morning Anita I'm going to ask listeners here and um yeah I mean during my journey of dealing with breast cancer it was um it was really difficult and I had as well as the personal challenges of going through the treatment journey I came from I come from a community that doesn't really want to talk about breast cancer

and there's lots of myths and stigmas around in the black community that I was up against I was for example I was trying to find out my history that I could understand my own diagnosis and it was very difficult to get information and then I found that there's a lot of myths, as I said, for example, the myth of black people don't get cancer. And this is so concerning because it's so dangerous because this will hinder a lot of black women from going for their screenings, doing self-examination and getting the treatment.

And I think to date, there's a lot of late diagnosis amongst Black women because the cancer is found so late because perhaps they don't go for their screening. So for me, those are a lot of the difficulties that I faced. And during my journey, I was on a quest for meaning and purpose and that's when I believe God directed me towards BCN to be an advocate for them to have a voice so that I can be a little voice that can be open to highlight the problem within the black community and therefore hopefully get us talking about it. And I'm so privileged to be part of the chat with Kelly and all the other incredible women that have told their stories so that we can start a conversation where it needs to be had.

Absolutely. Especially in my community. Absolutely. And Kelly, did you find that you use social media like we see in the chats yourself? How useful was it? Because what I found, I was so drawn into the chats because it felt so intimate.

But also you get this 360 view of the women going through the diagnosis, but also the friends and how they react. And, you know, you're leaving voice notes and watching videos and it's all so personal. Was this useful for you, Kelly? Did you have a friendship group like that? And how important was it to have this social media connection? Well, firstly, the chat feels really real, doesn't it?

It feels like you're part of a really, you know, intimate, you're in that sort of, in that messaging chat and you can see what's going on. My first diagnosis was when I was 31 um back in 2006 and so social media was quite different then um I was diagnosed sadly for a second time um in 2010 and I did start to use Twitter and and really as a way of communicating quite quickly and I think group messaging is I know with other experiences in my family I've um uh used group messaging for to to send information quickly to a group of people

and so it is a really it's a really interesting form of communication and I think one of the one of the the sort of things that is really powerful is that actually you can put a message out there without having to listen to somebody else's emotional response. So it's a really interesting way of communicating. And you can see in the chat that people send voice notes to each other. And it's something that I've only recently started to do, you know, with some of my friends. They'll send me a voice message. I'll send them a voice message. And I think, well, why aren't I picking up the phone just having a conversation. But actually, it there's a uniqueness to that sort of communication

that allows reflection about the message that has been sent before you respond. And I think, having had a breast cancer experience myself, I can really understand why people, you know, use this sort of form of communication when I was diagnosed for a second time I sent my very closest group of friends an email um because actually I didn't want to see their emotional response and mop their tears like I did the first time actually I ended up sort of supporting them emotionally when I'd immediately told them because I'd had a little time to process it. And I'm telling them this information for the first time. So their emotional response actually wasn't what I needed in those moments.

You just needed to say what you needed to say and let them process it. And there's a lot of humour in it as well. Lurleen, the humour must be very important. Oh, definitely. You know, when you go through a cancer diagnosis and a journey and all the difficulties you you need to kind of be immersed in life and that includes the humor and you know i really resonated with some the humor that comes out with the chat and um uh i can remember um one of my friends supporting me actually going to remember one of my friends supporting me actually going to one of my chemotherapy appointments and we were just having a whale of a time.

I was sat with the chemo going through on the drip and everything and we were just having a laugh and having fun and that really sort of helped the others around us and the nurses were, you know, really thinking, what's going on? But I needed that. Yeah, absolutely. I think what you've done and what you've produced, Sally, with Breast Cancer Now is really going to help a lot of women

and you can find the chat at breastcancernow.org slash the chat where the first three episodes are available to watch now running after time on the program. Thanks for joining me today. You can hear the best of the week on weekend woman's hour tomorrow. And remember, do get in touch about our special program on Monday, all about relationships and sex education in schools. And on Tuesday, we'll reveal the woman's hour power list. It's going to be a great week. We'll be naming 30 remarkable women in sports who are making a huge impact from elite athletes to boardroom executives. But if you want to get

in touch with the programme on Monday, then email us through our website. Thank you. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. Hello. My Radio 4 podcast series, Amol Rajan Interviews, features global game changers, pioneers and maverick thinkers. It includes Bill Gates, Greta Thunberg and Sir Ian McKellen, as well as Novak Djokovic, Billie Jean King and Nile Rodgers. Nothing is off the table and all give an insight into their remarkable worlds. You can subscribe and listen on BBC Sounds. Thank you. I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year,

I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth.

How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story. Settle in. Available now.