Woman's Hour - Julianne Moore, Forced adoption in China, Nurses vote on pay deal

Episode Date: June 9, 2025

Julianne Moore has won countless awards and nominations for films like Boogie Nights, The End of the Affair, The Hours, as well as winning an Oscar for her performance in the film Still Alice. Her latest role sees her play Kate in the upcoming film Echo Valley alongside Sydney Sweeney, who plays her daughter Claire. Julianne tells Nuala McGovern about her character who's coming to terms with a personal tragedy while running her farm and training horses, when her daughter shows up, hysterical and covered in someone else’s blood, flipping Kate’s world upside down.From today, nursing staff in England, Wales and Northern Ireland are being asked to vote on the government's proposed 3.6% pay increase. This compares to a 5.4% average increase for resident doctors, formally known as junior doctors, and 4% for consultants and other senior doctors. The Scottish government has already agreed a two-year 8% pay offer with health unions. Around 345,000 members of the Royal College of Nursing union will be asked if the pay award is enough in what has been described as the biggest single vote of the profession ever launched in the UK. Nuala speaks to Steve Ford, editor of the Nursing Times.Turkey has imposed a restriction on elective caesarean sections at small private medical clinics, without a medical justification, under new health ministry regulations. President Erdogan has declared 2025 to be the ‘Year of the family’ and has been campaigning for women to have vagina births, or 'natural births' as he's calling them, in a bid to encourage women to have more babies. Turkey has one of the highest rates of caesarean section births according to health ministry figures from 2023, where out of all births 61.5% were by c-section. This compares to the UK's 42%, according to the latest NHS data. Nuala talks to Guardian journalist Ruth Michaelson and Dr Irmak Sarac, a gynaecologist and feminist activist in Turkey, to discuss why these restrictions have been brought in and what's happening to women's reproductive health in Turkey.Daughters of the Bamboo Grove: China’s Stolen Children and a Story of Separated Twins is the real life story of twin girls born in China who were separated as toddlers in 2002. One girl was adopted in good faith by an American couple who believed that the baby’s Chinese birth-parents had given her up. The other remained in China to be raised by her birth parents. The story shone a light on China's one child policy which ran from 1979 to 2015 and China’s involvement in international adoption, a practice that was ended last year. Nuala speaks to the American journalist Barbara Demick, who unravelled the truth of what happened to the twins, eventually broke the story to the world and who has put their story into this book. Presenter: Nuala McGovern Producer: Andrea Kidd

BBC Sounds music radio podcasts. Hello, this is Nuala McGovern and you're listening to the Woman's Hour podcast. Hello and welcome to the program. Well, we will begin with Julianne Moore. I loved this quote from the actor Ethan Hawke when paying tribute to Julianne. You don't know how many awards you haven't won until you Google Julianne Moore.

Well, she's on today about her new thriller Echo Valley. It had me on the edge of my seat, to put it mildly. We want to talk about a new type of maternal role that we are seeing with her character in that particular film. We have so much to talk about. I also know that Julianne Moore has two grown children and she has spoken previously about empty nest syndrome and I'm wondering if any of you are struggling with that transition right now. Maybe you're readying for them to leave home after this summer. Maybe they're undergoing their exams at the moment. Well any tips for your fellow listeners get in touch 84844 on social

media we're at BBC Woman's Hour or you can email us through our website for a WhatsApp message or a voice note the number is 03700 100 444. We also have the author of an unput downable book today Daughters of the Bamboo Grove China's Stolen Children and a story of separated twins it is just fascinating and it follows the heartbreaking ramifications of the one child policy in China particularly on two families. So we're going to hear all about that. We're also going to be in Turkey. That is for restrictions on caesareans or c-sections, as they're called, in private medical facilities.

And we're going to take a look at the nurse pay review also this hour. Now, as I mentioned, the woman opposite me in the Woman's Hour studio, she doesn't really need an introduction because she has graced our TV and film screens so often, so many awards, nominations for films like Boogie Nights, The End of the Affair, The Hours, and Oscar for that incredible performance in the film Still Alice. Julianne Moore, welcome. Hi, Nula. So nice to see another redhead. We're going to get to the redheads at one point, let me tell you. In our conversation, you're so welcoming. You're with us at the last time with May, December. I have had been binging on Julianne Moore all weekend, which has been wonderful. Everything, you know, from sirens to the room next door and of course Echo Valley, which I'll just say I was watching it in

the countryside in the pouring rain by myself. A little scary, right? A little scary. Absolute brilliant. So this new role, this is Kate. It's on Apple TV, by the way, I should say from June 13th. And you're starring alongside Sydney Sweeney, who plays your daughter, Claire. Fiona Shaw, the best friend, Leslie.

Donal Gleeson also starring. A lot of Irish people. I know, interesting, isn't it? There you go. It's like a Celtic contingent. And Kate is coming to terms with a personal tragedy. She's running this huge farm. She's training horses when her daughter, Claire, shows up shows up hysterical,

covered in blood and turning Kate's world upside down. Now, we're not going to give any spoilers, but I do want to get into this issue of maternal storytelling. It's been called Eco Valley, like a film to usher us into a new era of it. So something different from the mother as a saint or a villain. Is that a good way to describe Kate? I think that's interesting. Yeah, I think when we meet her at the very beginning, she's quite bereft. She's lost her partner and she's really struggling with her grief and genuine inertia too. You know, grief is not a mobilizing emotion, it's something

that leaves you pretty flattened. And she's trying to run this farm all by herself, so she's having real economic difficulty. And she also has this child that she loves very much who's struggling with addiction. And so we're starting at a place of trouble for her. And when this girl comes back, this child that she loves very much, a young adult, by the way, and says, you know, I need help, you watch Kate make these decisions in order to help her. And these decisions, I'd say they are morally complicated. So you're not seeing somebody come from a place of like real authority, of I know what's right and wrong, I know what's best for you. She's almost coming from a place of problem solving, but really just one tiny step at a time.

And I suppose that question of how far would a mother go for their child when it's messy? That's right, pretty darn far. I don't know, we all struggle with that, right? I think that that's what we do as parents. You're like, where is the boundary? Where am I helping them and providing them with scaffolding in order for them to learn? And when have I taken away their agency? Because we all know that if you do make these decisions for someone, they're never going to develop properly. And particularly when you're dealing with addiction, which is a very, very complicated and very sad subject. And it's a disease, you know,

but it's also a family disease. So how is it affecting everyone in the family? But in this, you, you, we don't, I don't know that we necessarily judge Kate's actions or think about, you know, think about whether they're right or wrong. I think we're with her as she makes these choices one after another. And that maternal messy love as we talk about. Because I think you're hitting the nail on the head there, because even if somebody some money will have dealt with family members with addiction of whatever kind, which I think will resonate very strongly at times. But that larger, broader stroke is letting children take the consequences of their actions, even if you can see they're making a mistake.

Right, right. That's hard to do, even if it's a haircut. But it's an interesting concept. If people want to get in touch on that either 84844. And you know, there was a line I read that you were curious of how this film will be received and it reminded me of a line that your co-star, Sydney Sweeney, had in the film. She talked about being a failure as an artist because her art wasn't received in the way she wanted it to be received. I was thinking if the art is received in a way differently than the artist intended,

is it a failure? No, I don't think so. I'm always curious about, you know, sometimes when you go to a fine art gallery, there'll be these passages on the wall about, you know, what the sculpture is, what the painting is, what it means, what the artist intended. And I'm like, are we supposed to know that? Do we have to know that? You know, because I do think that the, I think art exists for people to observe it, to experience it, to have kind of a personal reaction to it. And often when we really like something, we're feeling the artist's humanity and we feel ourselves reflected in it. So if something is received differently than you intend,

does it matter? Because you're making a connection one way or another. And I do think that when we make things, even when you're a little child and you make something, you do make it for yourself. You make it because you enjoy it. You make it because your hands feel good doing it. You kind of are, there's some sort of an expression in there. It is a way to connect. But I don't know that you, but you can't say, it's about this, don't you see? I mean, my mother used to say, I love this, because she was a psychiatric social worker,

a psychologist, and when a child makes a drawing, she'd say, you're not supposed to say, oh, that's so good, or look at that house that you made. She'd say, you say to them, tell me about your drawing. And it gave them yeah. And it gave them an opportunity to talk to you about what they were feeling. So yeah, I think you just have to you put it out there, let it land. And see how it lands. I'm wondering how one scene will land, which I've talked about edge of the seat, that it's you and your daughter is an incredibly intense scene. There is violence at times. I think I know you'll know what I'm talking about, but I'm not giving away any spoilers. But what is it like to do those incredibly intense physical and at times

violent scenes, particularly when it's meant to be a mother-daughter relationship. Well, Sydney Sweeney, who's just a lovely, lovely actress, she and I, I think we're very, I think we felt really good together, we felt really safe and we were interested in exploring this. It's a huge dramatic set piece, this scene. There's a lot of physicality in it and it's really about the intensity of a relationship between a mother and a daughter. And both of us, I am the mother of an adult daughter, she is the adult daughter of a mother. We both know what that relationship is, how potent it is, how much it can bear. And I think there's also an elasticity to it, you know, to what, to how much you can fight and how much you can forgive one another and how deep you can go,

you know, it's sort of built into that relationship. And so we wanted to, to explore it. The idea that that you, it can take it, but but but it obviously it's very theatrical, it's really dramatic, and it's very upsetting as well. But do you take that afterwards with you, or is it easy to leave it behind? You leave it behind. I mean, you know, people ask this question a lot, and there is so much about acting that's emotional and physical

and kind of involves sort of an intimacy. I always say people forget that you're also dealing with your intellect at the same time, right? We know where the camera is. We have to know because they have to be able to see us. We know how many steps it takes to get upstairs. We know how to do the physical things for the stage combat. So the duality of it is really fascinating for me, the idea that it involves your heart and your head all of the time. So when you finish it, like for me, The idea that involves your heart and your head all of the time. So when you finish it, like for me, it's very, very important that my partner and I feel safe when we're doing something so that we know that we've created this together. And so when you've done it

and you've done it successfully, you can walk away and you can leave it behind. It's so interesting. We had Eto Brian, an intimacy coordinator who had worked on a lot and we're often talking about sexual intimacy scenes in those particular instances. But of course, as I said, there are all different types of intimacy both on screen and off. And I suppose that would really come under that as well, because it's that visceral reaction of a very close relative that is driving you to a breaking point. And I think in I think in stage combat, too, sometimes you have to communicate a ferocity.

So you know, your voice and your actions seem very ferocious, but you might be touching the other actor very gently because you're not really hurting them and you need to be able to communicate that to them physically as well. You are also in a different world in sirens. Let's talk about that. That's on Netflix for everybody who's keeping up now with all of Julianne's projects that are on the go at the moment. You're this charismatic, rich socialite.

Kevin Bacon is in there as well as your husband husband Megan Fahey, Millie Alcock. And I was wondering what you think about at the moment what is attracting viewers, because I know Echo Valley is going to be a big hit on the edge of the seat. And then you have this other world that is also in a way, what would I say, that there is an edge of horror perhaps on sides of it, but it's in a very beautiful setting with very rich people. And I think there seems to be an appetite for that as well. How do you see it at the moment, film and TV and what audiences want? I think people are looking for, I mean, I think often they're looking for distraction. I think that people are looking for beauty. I think they want to see beautiful locations.

The beach is very popular, obviously. People living in a beautiful house by the beach and wearing wonderful clothes. They enjoy that. But then they're also looking for stories about relationships. And they want it to feel. I think they're drawn in by the mystery and by the comedy also. But this, at the end of the day,

ends up being quite a story really about feminism and about choices and about where we, what we think is optimal for us than what turns out to not be successful in terms of our agency and our autonomy. So I really loved what Molly wrote, our showrunner, Molly Smith Metzger. It's marvelous because it seems like a fantasy. It seems like something that everyone's trying to attain, but there's quite a twist at the end. And you realize that a lot of like who Michaela is, you know, my character has been a construct. It's something that she's projecting for others to see.

construct, it's something that she's projecting for others to see. I'm just thinking, as I think about Michaela Kiki, as she's also known, and also Kate, we have birds featuring, for example, when it comes to Kiki. We have horses really at the center of Kate's existence with Echo Valley. Is this something that you know already about birds and horses? I love animals. I do. I mean, I do. I really love animals.

I actually love, people always say that thing, you're not supposed to work with children or animals because they pull focus. But they do. They do in the most wonderful way because they're so alive. So if you're working with a baby or you're working with a bird, you know, there's a quality of unpredictability about them because they simply are being. So as an actor, it kind of keeps you awake and excited. And I really, really love it.

The birds particularly, because they are very unpredictable. But I can imagine, is there a learning curve with both of those? So much of it's about relaxation. I do think that people are afraid of birds. They are because we're not often close to them. The same with horses. Horses are really, really big animals. And babies as well, oddly, I think that people have a lot, you know,

how do I handle this baby? What do I do? So much of it is about relaxation and taking, in one case, taking care of the infant, being gentle with the bird, not being afraid, being a relaxed presence so that you don't scare the animal. I love it. I mean, I think you overheard me talking to somebody about how in the middle of a scene I had been talking to this young raptor. He was a teenager, so he still had kind of some downy feathers, but he was quite big. And they took his hood off and they wanted me to feed him. And he was too anxious to eat.

There was a piece of raw chicken they were supposed to eat. He didn't want to eat that. He was kind of looking around and I'd been stroking him and talking to him. And anyway, he was kind of gradually relaxing. And then I was doing the scene with Millie and I had my hand out. And in the middle of the scene, he hopped onto onto my hand and I was delighted because finally he was he felt relaxed. He was like oh there's that person I'll jump on her hand. That's so cool. Some of the perks of acting. I want to turn to a serious issue. You are the founding chair of Everytown Creative Council, an organization working to prevent gun

violence. Why did you decide to lend your profile and voice to that issue? Well, it was quite a long time ago. It was 2012, right after the Sandy Hook Massacre, which occurred in an elementary school in Connecticut. And my children were young at the time. I mean, my daughter, I think my daughter was 10, yeah. And then my son would have been 14, 14 and a half. And I realized what had happened that day when nothing changes in terms of gun regulation, that I was being an irresponsible parent if I didn't do something to change the gun laws in our country. And so I thought, well, I want to kind of gather my community around and find other

people who are willing to speak out against gun violence and and bring awareness to it. I think one of the things that we do most successfully as actors, people in the entertainment industry is kind of shine our light on people who are doing the actual work. So I've been involved with them for quite some time and we are making a lot of changes in legislation from state to state. Obviously the goal is federal change. But we're working at the state level. But that is your strategy at the moment that's interesting,

state to state instead. Yeah, and also encouraging women to run for office. And so encouraging women at the local level, community level school boards, I think town government, county government, state government and then Congress. Indeed, because that is a, I suppose, a fight that has been continuing for a long time to try and get gender equity when it comes to the political sphere. Do you feel there is any change when it comes to the attitudes to the Second Amendment and guns in the United States? I do. I think the majority of people in the United States are in favor of sensible gun laws. That's the thing. You have to remember that, you know, I grew up at a time when plenty

of people hunted and, you know, guns were available in the same way, but there was a lot of respect around it. And the NRA was a safety organization. When Wayne LaPierre took over the NRA, it became a lobbying organization for gun manufacturers. And that's something that people don't understand always. So there's so much really about keeping these corporations alive when when in fact I think people, even people who handle guns, even people who hunt, want gun laws. The number one cause of gun deaths is suicide. I don't think anybody wants to have a gun

available for their father or their brother or their mother or their cousin to kill themselves with. They'd be the first people to say that they want that stopped. And it is, of course, such a contentious issue. It comes up in various campaigns. People have very strong opinions on it, some different to yourself, Julianne Moore, but that is where you've put your voice and your profile. Your heritage is Scottish, perhaps giving rise to your red hair and freckles. Listeners may think you're American, which you are, but you've also taken British citizenship. I read to honor your mother as she was Scottish. Does it feel like home when you're here?

You know, yes and no. I mean, we were talking about dual, you know, that feelings of having a dual cultural experience, you know. My mother was always very Scottish, even though she immigrated to the United States when she was 10. She would kind of remind us that we weren't 100% American. And I think that I have an understanding of British culture and Scottish culture that a lot of Americans don't have. And I feel really fortunate for that. On the other hand, when I'm here, I also am aware that I am American.

You know, so but it's nice, I think it's nice to have an awareness of different cultures to not feel sometimes when we're rigid in our identity, it prevents us from really being able to see or communicate with others. So I like the idea that there can be some cultural fluidity as well. Can I say another domestic question, so to speak? I read that you say cleaning is your superpower.

It is. I'm very good at it. Tell me more, as your mother might say. I don't know. It's something that is really, I just know how to do it. I think that when we were younger, my mother gave us, my sister and I, my brother less so, because he was less predictable.

She gave us a lot of chores and we did them. We always did the dishes, we always cleaned the bathrooms, we did the vacuuming. So it's something that I learned early on and I'm good, now I'm not a very good cook. I don't have a lot of interest in cooking, but I'm a really good cleaner and I can organize a room like Lickety Split. Oh my goodness.

I love it. The multiple skills that Julianne Moore has. Any tips for our listeners that are facing MTS syndrome before I let you go? I'll tell you, it's really really it's very interesting isn't it it's like a it's a true transition for yourself as a as a parent and it's a big transition for your family and I think the one thing that that was helpful to me that somebody told me is that it is another developmental stage you know a lot of people would say to me oh congratulations you did it like when my

kids went off to college I'm like like, I don't feel done. And you're not done. You're never done. But the stage of them transitioning from your house into university or job or whatever, that's another place for them developmentally, and it's another place for you developmentally. So you go like, oh, okay, I did this part,

now I'm in this part. It's not like it's over, but it's like it's an opportunity to kind of take another step and knowing that is kind of a way of dealing with the grief of that sort of parenting stage being finished and knowing that you have another one in front of you. Julianne Moore, lovely to have you in. Do come back to us again because I have a feeling you've another couple of projects on the go that you'll be back to us in no time. Echo Valley will be available on Apple TV plus in select cinemas from the 13th of June.

Sirens is on now. You can binge it all. I watch The Room Next Door. She's with Tilda Swinton. Amazing. Get your fix of Julianne Moore this week. Thanks very much for coming in. Thanks, Nula. Thank you. Now, lots of you getting in touch on the Empty Nest. I'll read some of those in a moment. 84844. Now, but from today, nursing staff in England, Wales and Northern Ireland are being asked to vote on the government's proposed 3.6% pay increase.

This compares to a 5.4% average increase for resident doctors, formerly known as junior doctors and 4% for consultants and other senior doctors. The Scottish government has already agreed to a two-year 8% pay offer with health unions. Around 345,000 members of the Royal College of Nursing Union or the RCN will be asked if the pay award is enough in what has been described as the biggest single vote of the profession ever launched in the UK. Nursing is predominantly a female profession, with data showing that nearly 90% of nurses in the UK are female. And you will have heard it's a big week when it comes to finances. The Chancellor, Rachel Reeves, is gearing

up for her spending review on Wednesday and in the next few weeks the government's 10-year plan for the NHS in England is due to be announced. The Executive Director of RCN England, Patricia Marquise, described the pay offer as grotesque when she spoke to the Today programme earlier this morning. After years of pay stagnation and another award that is the lowest of the public sector, it really does send a signal to our members that this government doesn't really value them.

We've been calling for direct negotiations now for several years. We do think the PRB mechanism, the pay setting mechanism for the NHS is broken and it's resulted in nursing receiving the lowest award this year, but also being a profession that are safety critical. They deliver the majority of the care in the NHS and yet they are weighted to the bottom. The starting salaries are too low and they are weighted to the bottom of the pay scales in the NHS, meaning that people finish their career maybe after 30, 40 years on the same pay band that they started. Well joining me is Steve Ford, editor of Nursing Times, a website and monthly magazine for nurses. Good to have you with us, Steve.

So tell us a little bit about the vote. Good morning, yeah. So this is not actually a formal strike ballot as such. This is basically what they call an indicative vote. So basically, this is to gauge opinion to find out what nurses around the country, particularly RCN members, really do think about this pay award. Obviously, there's the, you mentioned the financial stuff

that's coming later this week, so it's an element of leverage there to send a clear message to the government on that. And obviously, it also gives the RCN itself a useful indication on whether they should move to something more formal and actually call whether their members should go out on strike and take industrial action of some kind. What about the word grotesque that the RCN has used about the proposed pay increase? Do you think that's reflected in members? It's a strong word, isn't it? Grotesque. I think last time nurses went out on strike,

there was an awful lot of anger at that particular moment with the government at that time. We now have a new government that's also trying to do an awful lot of new things. And I think this time, there's just, as you've explained, the feeling that lack of fairness with, but obviously that the doctors, Scotland, you know, it just doesn't, it feels really unfair. And I imagine out there, there's a lot of disappointment amongst nurses, just a feeling that they probably expected or wanted something a lot more positive really from from this new administration to basically get their goodwill to do all these changes like the 10-year plan and everything else that's coming. Because the 10-year NHS plan is expected soon. One of the key concerns is about when it comes to nursing retention.

Patricia Marquis also talked about starting salaries and the government say this change will mean nurses will earn over £30,000 as a new starter. Tell me a little bit about what you're hearing in respect to that. Yeah, retention is the thing that people don't talk about so much. People talk about recruitment all the time, but the phrase, I suppose, leaky bucket comes to mind in that the NHS spends an awful lot of money recruiting people. And obviously we spend a lot on education of nurses,

degree level, three years training. People then go into their job, as you said, on what was a fairly low salary, but they're trying to improve that. But then the pressures on people right now, particularly if you're a new nurse, you're stepping into a job from having a student to then basically having your blue uniform and making decisions. So a huge amount of pressure and it's almost a cycle I suppose. If the fewer staff you have, the more pressure there is or the fewer permanent staff you have if you happen to use agency support and then things like that.

Then the pressure ratchets up and then you're more likely to leave. So essentially you've got a cycle which is not good. But yeah, retention, sorry. You mentioned disappointment there, but do you think, and just listening to your comments there, is at the heart of it really pay or is it conditions? It's a mixture, isn't it? The conditions right now are not good. The NHS is in a big challenge, it's got a lot of challenges so it's in a very tricky place and it needs to get the changes that the government

has promised, whether they will do the right thing or not we shall see, but they're the things that they want to do to try and get out of this. But pay also, it's always traditionally felt amongst nurses as the biggest workforce that they aren't remunerated as well as other parts of the workforce. And increasingly nursing is, you know, that they're so important. We've got all these advanced nurse practitioners, specialist nurses, you know, they're leading care on a lot of long-term conditions and things like that. So, you know, it's a mixture. I think conditions are bad, but if you then don't give a good pay rise, then that doesn't help people get through the conditions. Do you think this vote could lead to strike action? I think, as I said, a few years ago when the RCN went on strike previously, and they hadn't

been on strike officially before, other nursing unions had, but not for a long time, there was a feeling amongst some people that was a reluctance that they hadn't done it before, balanced against the level of anger and the sort of the anger side won so that nurses did end up going out on strike. And because that cork has sort of popped before I think there'll be less concern about going on strike this time. So I think you know it wouldn't surprise me at all. Steve Ford, editor of the Nursing Times. Thank you so much. I also want to let you know a Department of Health and Social Care spokesperson has said to us that they say we've accepted the pay recommendations in full because we value every NHS professional's contribution to patient care. This year NHS staff are receiving a pay rise of 3.6%, the second above inflation pay increase in 10 months.

That means that for the first time ever a nurse will earn over £30,000 as a new start to some of the figures that we've been speaking about with Steve. Thanks so much for joining us. If you'd like to get in touch 84844, I was heartbroken when my first child moved out at age 15, says one listener. They're now 27. I have a few more children and I'm a lone parent with two teenagers at home. I can't wait until I can live for myself again. I don't know if I've ever done it. It won't be an empty nest.

It will be my nest for me and my life will still be very full. So there's a take on it. 84844 if you'd like to get in touch. Now, Turkey has imposed a restriction on elective caesarian sections at small private medical clinics if they don't have a medical justification under new health ministry regulations. President Erdogan has declared 2025 to be Year of the Family and has been campaigning for more women to have vaginal births.

He calls them natural births. He says in a bid to encourage women to have more babies. Now Turkey has one of the highest rates of cesarean sections according to the health ministry figures from 2023. Out of all the births, 61.5% were by C-section. This compares to 42% in the UK, according to latest NHS data. So what about these restrictions? Why are they in? And put it in a larger context in Turkey for us. We have two guests.

We have the Guardian journalist, Ruth Mikkelsen, Mikkelsen, excuse me, who's based in Istanbul, and Dr. Ermak Sarac, who is a gynaecologist and feminist activist in Turkey. Ruth, let me begin with you. Let's talk about the restrictions. What exactly has changed? Well, what's changed is that now elective caesareans at private clinics are something that have come under a ban. And so, you know, really this is about choice in the end. It's about an ability for a woman to elect to have a cesarean. The government has made a lot of statements about how,

as you say, their idea of a natural birth, a vaginal birth is inherently better. And that in the telling of the president, Recep Tayyip Erdogan in particular, the idea that this will encourage women to have more children because of the idea that it takes longer to recover from a caesarian. And this all fits into, as you said, year of the family that Erdogan has declared for 2025 where there are financial incentives for women to have three children or more and that you know this is this is all something

that again it's not in the end it's not really about what women are choosing to do it's very much about what the state is telling them that it thinks is best, and Erdogan in particular. Let's get into a couple of specifics there. What are the financial incentives that are being offered? Well, the financial incentives, there is a one-time stipend now for the first child that you choose to have, which works out at the moment at about £94. That's a one-off. Some would say that's not a huge amount of money, especially in a cost of living crisis in Turkey. For your second child, there is a monthly stipend equivalent to just under £30. I checked a three pack of baby formula, large baby formula online is about 25 pounds or the equivalent here in Turkey.

So again, cost of living crisis and particularly food, very expensive. And if you have a third child, which is what Erdogan has been saying for years is what he wants to see, nevermind what women want, but that's what he wants to see, then you get a stipend back again of about £94 a month. And so the government is really heavily trying to incentivise the idea that people should

have upwards of three children. But again, this is a moment where the cost of living, especially for basics like food, inflation is really high. The cost of living crisis is real in Turkey. The cost of things like schooling can be very high if it's private schooling. And this isn't the government offering to subsidize nurseries or childcare facilities or anything like that.

This is the government saying, we will give you a little bit of money to have the child, but after that, you're on your own. Let me bring in Dr. Irmak here. The above average number of c-sections in Turkey, why do you think that is? There are several reasons for it. The first one is the system, the health system is very privatized in Turkey, so it doesn't support the vaginal birth. So there are lots of private hospitals and they earn money more with the C-section than the

vaginal birth. So one part is this. The second part is that the midwife schools that you attend after primary school, they are all closed. You can be a midwife if you attend as a college. So the number of the midwives and the quality of the education of the midwives is worse now. This doesn't support vaginal birth. As you know, when there's enough educated midwives to support women during the vaginal birth,

which is very important, then you can increase the vaginal birth numbers. And the other one is that there are lots of malpractice lawsuits in Turkey, especially with the obstetricians and gynaecologists. And they are very... And these are... That's because the doctors don't prefer vaginal birth and find this more riskier, more risky than the vaginal birth. Basically, some of the doctors are opting for a C-section?

Yes. Yes, because of worries that somebody might sue them over... Yes, there are lots of malpractice lawsuits regarding with the vaginal births. And of course, there is one other thing that the pregnancy education about the vaginal birth and so there are not many places that you can have them without paying money. Of course there are lots of good educational programs when you pay for them. And that's why, and that's because, that's why, I'm sorry, that's why the women are afraid of having vaginal births also. I mean, there's a change in birth thoughts by the women, so they prefer C-sections also.

Like a cultural change within society. From the World Health Organization, when they talk about C-section, they say they can be essential in situations such as prolonged or obstructed labor, fetal distress or because the baby is presenting in an abnormal position. They also say as with all surgeries there can be risks. They include the potential for heavy bleeding or infection, slower recovery times after childbirth, delays in establishing breastfeeding and skin to skin contact and increased likelihood of complications in future pregnancies. But coming back to you Ruth, I understand that one of the Turkish football teams went out on the pitch

recently before a match with a banner declaring natural is best and with that I think they mean to refer to that vaginal births are best. How did you understand that? How do people react? Well understandably that drew some condemnation, a bit of laughter from feminist groups who've come under attack. I think everyone's a little bit rightfully confused about why a football team full of men would feel incentivized to carry a banner like that onto the pitch and what's the context surrounding it. I mean there's certainly been plenty of sort of state-backed campaigns since last October to focus on the idea that a vaginal birth is

somehow more natural and that's what women should be doing and there's a kind of political element to this of currying favor with something that the government is saying, and particularly Erdogan himself. And so I mean, I think we also need to look at the fact that really what we're talking about here is how do women get information in Turkey to be able to make choices about their own health.

I mean, like Dr. Sarac was saying, you know, there isn't good, there's a deficit of midwives. The sources of information that you might be able to have to make choices about your own body, about an abortion, about giving birth, you know, if it's coming down to a bunch of footballers holding a banner, that doesn't really speak well to the idea that actually there's good information being circulated that means that when a woman walks into a doctor's office or goes to give birth or has contact

with the medical system, that she is in a position or that anyone in that situation is in a position to feel well informed and be able to make choices that ultimately are about her own body and about her own understanding of the situation rather than a financial incentive or poor information that's being circulated as a result of things like this. Dr. Ormak, do you think these restrictions that are being introduced will make any significant difference to Turkish women, to the amount of c-sections, because maybe they'll try and evade the private clinics? If you don't change the system, the C-section rates will not be lower. So I don't think these things will change the C-section rates.

The small private clinics, you shouldn't have the C-sections there before, not before this registration, because they were not allowed to have the c-sections or the vaginal births. Now with the new registration they say that if you want to have the vaginal births there you have to have a delivery room and the connected operation room. So they say that yes you can have deliveries there and only c-sections if they are necessary, not with the elective ones because these are very small private clinics. In private hospitals, you can always have elective C-sections.

There's no change. But still, this doesn't affect the C-section rates. If you don't increase the midwives' numbers and education, if you don't increase the midwives numbers and education, if you don't change the private system of healthcare, then the C-sections rate will always be high. Dr. Ermak Sarac and Ruth Michelson, thank you both so much for joining us. We did ask the Turkish Embassy for a comment but are yet to hear back from them. Now, last night the

American performer Nicole Scherzinger won a Tony Award for the best leading actress in a musical for her performance in the Broadway version of Sunset Boulevard. She's the former lead singer of the Pussycat Dolls you might remember and she joined us on Woman's Hour back in 2023 when she was playing the same role in The West End. So we wanted to play a clip from that interview directed by Jamie Lloyd. Ennichol told Anita about how she almost didn't take the role of the fading silent film star Norma Desmond when Sunset Boulevard was revived in London. Jamie had this vision and he came to me with it.

And I obviously grew up doing musical theatre, love musical theatre. And I thought, OK, well, I there's many roles that theater, love musical theater. And I thought, okay, well, there's many roles that I would love to play. And this is not one of them. Jamie. Why? Did you not know the story? Did you not see the film? I think I kind of knew the film, the Gloria Swanson version, where it's just like this kind of, you know, bewildered, kind of out there older star just longing to be seen again, longing for fame again. And I was like, yo, this chick is crazy, Jamie, like, and how old is she?

Come on, dude, I still look good under bright light. And he was like, no, no, no, don't pay attention to any of that. He said, strip it all back. He said, just read the script. Read the words, the story on the page and listen to the music. And when I listened to the music, I fell madly in love with her. I felt like I had written those songs myself. And so the rest was history.

We had talked for a long time about it because I was still scared. I still had my reservations and while people would perceive it, you know, and he just kept going back to telling a truthful human story. So what were your reservations? Well, just what they would think. It's like, oh my gosh, like, is my career over? Am I what? Just, you know, I always wanted to be like, growing up, I wanted to be Lea Salonga and Miss Saigon, not seeing this. So you think people would think, Oh, that's Nicole playing a role that people would have judged you playing that?

I think to be honest, initially, I thought the role was a lot older because Norman Desmond's character is set to be in the 50s. But how old is she? But really when Patti LuPone and Glenn Close played it they were about my age. It's crazy isn't it? So 40s. And it's crazy how we progressed because back then when they played it's like that's ancient. But now it's like 40s are the new 30s, you know what I'm saying? Nicole Scherzinger there speaking to Anita. If you want to catch the whole interview, it's on BBC Sounds 29th of September 2023 and Nicole won a Tony Award for her performance in Sunset Boulevard last night. So if you're getting in touch about The Empty Nest, we're chatting about it with Julianne Moore a little earlier.

My eldest daughter went to university, followed two years later by my younger daughter. Another two years later, my twin sons were preparing to leave and I knew I was going to be bereft. Luckily, I had been attending an evening course in interior design and I decided to join a part-time degree course when my sons left to keep me occupied and busy. It kept me too busy to grieve as much as I might have. That's Jane. Different one from Julia. My son and I became a small family of two after my husband died.

My son was 11 years old. Somehow we floundered through the dreaded teenage years. When he left home, it was enormous enormous wrench, as if something had been physically torn away. But now I'm in my seventies. I live alone with my rescued cat and can't imagine living any other way. Not all of us solitary oldies are lonely. Some of us couldn't live with another person ever again. That one from Julia, keep them coming.

84844. Right. Mentioned twins there. Let us move on to an extraordinary real life story that is in a new book. You can also listen to it on BBC Radio 4's Book of the Week. It is Daughters of the Bamboo Grove, China's Stolen Children and the Story of Separated Twins. It's the tale of twin girls born in China who were separated as toddlers.

This is back in 2002. One girl was adopted in good faith by an American couple who believed the baby's Chinese birth parents had given her up. The other remained in China to be raised by her birth parents. And this story shone a light on China's one child policy, which ran from 1979 to 2015 and also on China's involvement in international adoption, a practice that ended just last year.

The American journalist who unraveled the truth of what happened to these twins and eventually broke the story to the world is Barbara D'Amic, who joins me now. Welcome. Thank you so much. Delighted. What a book, I have to say. So compelling. Unput Downable is what I called it earlier. It's called Daughters of the Bamboo Grove. Set the scene for us, Barbara, of China at the time that these twins came into the world in a bamboo grove. China, 2000. I think the book starts that way, September 9th, 2000. This was a very typical Chinese family, a young couple who lived deep in the mountains. They were rice farmers.

And this was the height of the one child policy. And they'd married young, had a, had a, their first child was a girl, their second child was a girl, and they decided to try again. And this being the height of the one child policy, the young mother had to really disguise her pregnant belly because she could be forced to abort, she could be forcibly sterilized. They were in great trouble under this policy, which limited the number of children you could have. So she hid in a bamboo grove for her latter pregnancy and she gave birth in the bamboo grove thinking she was going to have a son at long last.

Which was lauded in society and considered necessary by families. Considered necessary to carry on the family name to do the rites at the cemetery. It was sort of the whole patriarchal holdover. So she was in the bamboo grove to have her son, and then she had two more daughters. But contrary to what people might think, they were thrilled with the daughters. Her husband especially, who is a very soft-spoken, not particularly macho fellow, doesn't drink, doesn't smoke,

doesn't gamble, and he just loves girls. And he thought it was just a great delight that they had two more girls. But at that point, having four girls, they are running massively afoul of the laws that were put in place at that stage. The one-child policy was really what China thought was going to lead to prosperity and growth for the country. That one child many hoped would be a boy when they had it. And if you didn't toe the line, there was the family planning that would come really trying to harass you or even further abuse you in a way.

Talk to us about family planning in China, who they were, what they were. Family planning is sort of a euphemism for the enforcers and there were tens of millions of them. Actually there were more people employed by family planning than in the People's Liberation Army. This was the policy, the reigning policy of the Chinese Communist Party. And it was very brutal. If you violated the policy, you were supposed to pay a multiple of your year's income. And if you couldn't pay that, you would get your house demolished, sometimes your farm animals taken, you could lose your job, you could lose your home, very, very brutal,

forcible abortions up to the ninth month. I quote a report from one doctor who said that they would inject formaldehyde in the crowning head of the baby. And this can be a very distressing image, of course, to some of our listeners to hear as well. No, no, just to let people know, just some of the specifics which are detailed in the book can be very difficult to read or hear about. But this was what was happening in China at that time.

It was very brutal and really terrifying. And children born out of plan, as they said, also didn't have household registration. It was difficult for them to go to school to get medical care. So there's a perception that the Chinese dumped their baby girls because they wanted boys. But it was really done, if it was done at all, it was done under duress. And what was very frightening for and heartbreaking for some of these families is that at times the children were kidnapped or confiscated if the families had fallen afoul of these rules of the one child policy. You zone in on these twins that were part of the Zheng family. I mentioned briefly that one was raised in America and the other with her birth parents.

But how did you come across this family? Okay, well I started this in China. I was based for seven years in China and I was sort of traipsing around the countryside interviewing people whose children were taken away by family planning. This had started about 2000, where they just took the babies. And I interviewed a mother and her daughter. The daughter was nine. And the daughter told me, well, I have a twin sister,

but she was taken away when she was a baby. And you know, I miss her. I'd like to play together. I'd like us to wear the same clothes. It's, you know, I miss her. And I was writing the story. I wrote a series of stories about families whose children had been taken. And after I got back to my office, which was in Beijing, I started thinking, hmm, I wonder if I could find this kid.

And I liked to fool around on computers. This was, you know, really the 2009, early days of social media, much more open. And a lot of adoptive parents in the US liked to post pictures of their children and these adorable little girls doing gymnastics or ballet or riding ponies. There were a lot of these photos on social media and I found one family who had adopted from an orphanage that I thought had probably taken this girl and she was about the right age and I knew what she looked like.

So it was pure detective work. But you have to decide at certain times, Barbara, about who to tell about your discoveries that you had potentially found this twin. You decided for the privacy of the child who was raised in America, Esther as she was known, to not tell the Chinese birth family at that point. Was that difficult? It was a, you know, quite an ethical decision because, you know, I'm an American but did I

favor the American family who I hadn't met? I had met the Chinese family. In the end I decided that the Chinese family. In the end I decided that the interest was that of a child, the nine-year-old girl, and that I couldn't forcibly out her as a stolen child. And so I told the American family, this is what I found. I'm not writing anything. I told the Chinese family, I think your daughter is in good hands. She's safe in the US, but you can't be in touch with her now. You eventually got the twins together, which is a fascinating part of the book. One is really an American girl and the other is this Chinese birth family that was looking for her for so long. Did you ever think that moment would come? No, it was quite a surprise to me. I got a message on Facebook in 2017.

This is years later. Years later. This is years later. Message on Facebook from a half brother from an earlier marriage of Esther's saying, you know, you had, you had messaged us many years ago about my sister. Are you still interested? And I was, I actually didn't remember. I was like, who are you? I don't know what this is about. Then he said, well, my mother adopted a little girl. And I was like, yeah. So it turned out Esther was then 16, almost 17, and she wanted to meet her identical twin sister in her birth family.

What do you want people to know about that time? Because I remember I was living in New York at the time as well, the international adoptions, it was something that was very much lauded. These are American families that were hoping to give these children a much better life when instead, with no idea of course that these children had been kidnapped or taken forcibly from their birth parents. You know, something that's very important to note here, in the 80s, 90s in China there really were a lot of abandoned baby girls, but by 2000 or so, China had become so much more prosperous that families were not abandoning their daughters. And at the same time, adoption from China

became so popular that Chinese adoptees were just the adoptees of choice. There's always a great demand for healthy babies. How many babies were we talking about that you think were taken forcibly? Actually, I do have an estimate. There were 160,000 children who were adopted abroad, and we believe that 10% were taken under duress. The stories vary in the case of this little girl whose name was Phuong Phuong, now Esther. She was taken by a group of men who burst into her family home,

immobilized her aunt, and forcibly took her. But other cases there was trickery. They would get trickery, they would get illiterate families to sign some document or take advantage of elderly grandparents who are babysitting. There were all different ways, but it was coercive and I'd say 10%, which would be 16,000. And of course, those ramifications continue. I think it's also at such a particular point in time, we look back at things that were able to be kept under the rug or anonymous. And that's just not possible anymore with DNA, for example, and social media. As of course, some of your stories came out as well.

Are the family still in touch? Just in my last 30 seconds or so? Yes. And actually every Lunar New Year, they they speak to each other. Esther talks to her twin, they still don't speak the same language, but we know we arranged an interpreter and the mothers talk to one another. It's a wonderful book, Daughters of the Bamboo Grove. It is BBC Four's book of the week, all this week, so you'll be able to hear some of it. Barbara Dimmick, thank you so much. If you've been affected by anything that you've heard

in this item you can of course find support links on the BBC Action Line website. Do join me tomorrow I'll be speaking to the Game of Thrones actress Natalie Dormer about going back to the theatre and her latest role as Anna in Tolstoy's epic Anna Karenina. That's all for today's Woman's Hour join us again next time. Hello I'm Anuska Matandidauti the presenter of Diddy on Trial from BBC current in it. prostitution. He denies all the charges. I'll be bringing you every twist and turn from the courtroom with the BBC's correspondents and our expert guests. So make sure you listen, subscribe now on BBC Sounds and turn your push notifications on so you never miss a thing.