Woman's Hour - June Sarpong, Disability benefit changes, Women war artists

Episode Date: March 19, 2025

Broadcaster June Sarpong co-founded the Women Inspiration and Enterprise Network, and in 2019 was appointed the first BBC Director of Creative Diversity. She joins Nuala McGovern to discuss championing inclusion, and why she has just published a biography of Una Marson, the poet, playwright, feminist and activist who made history as the first black female broadcaster at the BBC.Yesterday the government revealed its plans for disability benefit reforms. Reactions to the proposals have varied but Carers UK says it's very concerned about how the ideas could hit unpaid carers who are predominantly women. The charity's Director of Policy and Public Affairs Emily Holzhausen tells Nuala why, and Baroness Tanni Grey-Thompson, former Paralympic athlete and crossbench peer talks about the possibility that she might lose PIP (Personal Independence Payment) under the new rules now out for consultation.Last night, Real Madrid beat Arsenal 2-0 in the Women's Championship League quarter final in Spain, but commentators have been mainly discussing the standard of the ground they played on, with former Arsenal footballer and pundit Ian Wright calling the surface a 'disgrace'. Nuala talks to Fiona Tomas, women's sports reporter at the Telegraph.Cécile Ndjebet is a Cameroonian environmental activist and social forester. She co-founded the African Women’s Network for Community Management of Forests and campaigns for the involvement of women in forest management and their right to forested land. Tonight Cécile will receive the Kew International Medal 2025 and she joins Nuala in the studio.A new film War Paint: Women at War examines the trailblazing role of women war artists on the front lines round the world, championing the female perspective on conflict through art and asking: when it's life or death, what do women see that men don't? Nuala speaks to Margy Kinmonth, the director.

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petruzzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme. Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2. And of the risks it will take to feel truly alive.

If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts. BBC Sounds, music, radio, podcasts. Hello, this is Nuala McGovern and you're listening to the Woman's Hour podcast. Hello and welcome. Well, coming up, a conversation with Baroness Tani Gray-Thompson, Paralympian and campaigner on disability rights. It follows the work in pension secretary Liz Kendall unveiling the government's proposed reforms to disability benefits. That took place yesterday afternoon. So if you've had a little time to think about it I'd like your thoughts and reactions to what you have heard so far. One way to do that is

text the program that number is 84844 on social media we're at BBC Woman's Hour or indeed you can email us through our website for a WhatsApp message or a voice note The number is 03700 100444 Also, the presenter and author June Sarpong will be with us this hour She has written a new book on the first black female broadcaster at the BBC. That was Una Marson We'll learn all about her. A new film we will talk about on women war artists who are capturing what is unfolding right now in Ukraine and Sudan as well as other conflict zones around the world. We have Cecile Nedjabech, a social forester, we'll hear more about what that

entails, what does it mean to be a social forester? She has been fighting for women's land and forest rights, so we'll talk about that. And a football pitch that was played on by women footballers that some are calling a disgrace. But let us begin with the government's proposed plans for welfare benefit reform. Yesterday, the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions, Liz Kendall, revealed the details in the House of Commons. We will not means test PIP because disabled people deserve extra support whatever their incomes. And Mr. Speaker I can confirm we will not freeze PIP either.

Instead our reforms will focus support on those with the greatest needs. We will legislate for a change in PIP, so people will need to score a minimum of four points in at least one activity to qualify for the daily living element of PIP from November 2026. This will not affect the mobility component of PIP and only relates to the daily living element. And alongside this, we will launch a review of the PIP assessment, led by my right honourable friend, the Minister for Social Security and Disability,

in close consultation with disabled people, the organisations that represent them and other experts. So we make sure PIP and the assessment process is fit for purpose now and into the future. So a little off Liz Kendall there speaking in the House of Commons yesterday. Now it's worth saying that annual reforms to PIP that you heard about there stands for personal independence payment and it will apply only to England and Wales so the Scotland and Northern Ireland governments will make their own decisions about how to apply any reductions in welfare funding. PIP is

paid to people to cover extra costs of being disabled it can be claimed by people out of work and those that are in work. The green paper outlining the government's plans is being poured over. Some people say that it's not tough enough, you might have heard that this morning, others think it is going too far. Carers UK say they are concerned about how the ideas could hit unpaid carers, they are predominantly women we know. Joining me down the line to discuss is charities Emily Holtzhausen, she is director of policy and public affairs for Carers UK. Also on the line, Baroness Tani Gray is charities Emily Holtzhausen, she is Director of Policy and Public Affairs for Carers UK. Also on the line, Baroness Tani Gray-Thompson, former Paralympic

athlete and now crossbench peer in the House of Lords. You're both very welcome to the programme. I want to start with you Emily, particularly that specific issue of unpaid carers. What is your concern? Well our concern is that PIP is a really, it's a qualifying benefit for carers allowance. So this is the benefit if you can't work full-time and you have to give up work to care as many women do and it's you have to be providing at least 35 hours of care. So if somebody doesn't get that daily living component, it means that that person, many of whom are women, are then no longer entitled to this really important benefit carers allowance

which gives you contributions to your pensions. And we've been, you know, I'm just reading carers comments this morning and it's heartbreaking to see how they feel undervalued, underseen, very worried about the changes to PIP. There's been, what government is saying is that you need to be able to score four points in one category. There are several categories you need to score points, you have to score points to get this. And one carer is saying, you know, the person that I need needs global help, and we score 11 points across the categories but ones and twos, I'd lose it and they're worried about the knock-on

effect of their benefits. Global help meaning across a range of activities? Across a range of activities like help with cooking, reminding to do things, might be physical help or it might be prompting that kind of thing across different activities, you know, maybe getting dressed, making sure people stay clean and healthy, that kind of thing. So we're worried because in so many ways, I mean, women are much more likely to give up work to care.

They provide the bulk of unpaid care for disabled people. They're also concerned about how the disabled people in their families are being valued themselves. That's coming up strongly in the comments. And we believe it's about 70% women that would be impacted with the unpaid carers aspect of this. But you know, somebody might say if somebody doesn't qualify for PIP, and these are all proposals,

I want to underline that that's going to go in consultation. If they don't qualify for that personal independence payment, then many would think the carer should not qualify for the unpaid carer's allowance either, that it would follow on if, in fact, it's been assessed that person is not now eligible for PIP. So what the changes are talking about is talking about much more of a focus in one area and as I said there are people who need 35 hours of care or more which is what qualifies you for carers allowance and you might be doing that at a sort of lower levels across many different areas. You're still doing the caring.

You're still unable to work lots of hours because you're doing the caring. A lot of carers have been talking about their own health conditions as well. And the knock-on effects on families could be really significant because there are other benefits that you can get as well if you get carers allowance. So carers aren't feeling that this is a small change at all. They're telling us about the amount of care that they're doing, their own health conditions. And I mean, we've got at the moment, we've got 1.2 million carers in poverty, more likely to be in poverty if you're a woman, and 400,000 in deep poverty. And even the government's own statistics show that one in five of people in receipt of carers

allowance are struggling to make ends meet. Let me move also to Emily what the government has said, making it clear that this is a consultation which I've mentioned, open until the 30th of June, and the government would say that it's looking closely at what support would be needed for people who may lose their entitlements and that they have already raised eligibility for carers allowance. Your response? We need to do so much more. I mean carers allowance is lowest benefit for its kind. We could see these changes coming in quite quickly on this particular area for PIP. That's a worry. We need a complete overhaul really of benefits for carers, its lowest benefit of its kind. The support they provide is worth

£184 billion a year. They deserve so much better. The government is raising the earnings limit on carers allowance to a much higher level, which is really positive, it's great, but we've got this other cohort of carers who are going to be hit by this. So thank you for that, Emily. Hold that thought, you're going to stay with us. I want to turn to Baroness Tanni Gray-Thompson who's also with us. First, your overall reaction to what you heard yesterday? It was useful to get the green paper out finally because there's been a lot of drip feed of information in the last sort of couple of weeks. There's still lots of gaps in terms of

the rollout, we haven't seen the impact assessment. I suspect that they're delaying that because I don't imagine it's gonna be great. I think when we hear ministers and the prime minister talking about things like it's a moral duty to do this, and it's what people voted for, I don't think it is what people voted for. Five billion, if it was my bank account,

it can't be a huge amount of money. But in the overall scheme of things, what we see when welfare reforms been done before, it just pushes the costs to the, you know, other areas. And actually, you know, the welfare bill is not sustainable, something needs to be done. But actually, I think what needs to be done, you know, we need decent jobs for disabled people to do. We need accessible transport, you know, we need education not to be discriminatory. And that's what PIP is for. It's to kind of buy our rights because none of that is quite working. But those are hard things to fix. And I'm really worried that it's kind of pitting society against disabled people, you know, because a lot of the rhetoric over the weekend is about disabled people being benefits scroungers and taking money out of society.

The fraud rate's 0.2%. That's the government's own figures. So it feels like to me there's a gradual erosion of any kind of support for disabled people. And in context of NHS reform, Kim Ladbie's assisted dying bill, there's a lot of stuff going on at the moment that's making disabled people feel very vulnerable. And that rhetoric that you talk about, I would say has been there for a number of years, but that is not coming specifically from the government. This is something that you feel

you see where? Oh, I mean, just the number of people that get in touch with me to say that you know they've been almost accosted in the street you know with you've got a free car meaning a mobility car and it's not free and you know just a general increase in sort of hates too strong a word for most of the cases but actually just a lack of sympathy and support. It's always been there, but I think at the moment it feels like we're a bit of a tipping point.

And I think people expected Labour not to do this. I think they were always going to do this, but it does feel like disabled people are being demonised. But are you saying by people that you have encountered or people that are within the disability rights community that you're speaking to, you're not saying about that specifically being demonised by the government, are you? No, I think people feel demonised by what's happening because we still don't know the details. So, you know, we've got to see the legislation, it's got to go through both chambers, it could change. But I think certainly last week, some of the media coverage was

not helpful. So it feels a bit at the moment like the government have backed down a bit, but they haven't. It was just all government do this. It's this drip feed of trying to balance public opinion and figure out what they can do. And of course you will have seen as well that many feel this really doesn't go far enough. We're going to see that the Benefits Bill is going to increase even if these proposed changes did come in, which there is no guarantee. We're talking about PIP, we're hearing from Emily there some of the specifics of exactly how the

assessments might change. Do you think you could potentially lose your personal independence payment? Yeah I do, so I've been really open, I have PIP and that is for the extra cost of being disabled. I don't expect anybody to feel any sympathy for me for it but a lot of wheelchair users could have the support taken away. A lot of visually impaired people especially as they go into retirement which will push them into poverty and it will just push some people into greater need than they currently are. So I'd rather see, you know, we need proper jobs for people to, we need employers not to be discriminatory. We don't need another scheme. You know, the latest one is disability confident,

which, you know, there are some great employers out there, but that exists and access to work exists because companies don't employ disabled people. So the government should be doing mandatory pay gap reporting and they don't do it because it's not great. So there's other things that we should be doing. If we want long term real change and the benefits bill, you know, it is not sustainable, it is not acceptable.

But I don't think this is the solution to it. Let's get into some of the specifics. and I want to talk about work as well because that's very much part of the conversation and whether it's the right to try for example and they would say I would imagine the government that the whole a lot of this movement is trying to get people back into work that could be working or that want to work was another way. They also phrased it for for another cohort. But why do you think you'll lose PIP? Because I don't have four points in any one of the sections so the help and support I need is quite variable. So I mean continent it's controlled most of

the time but it's not so you know I do have to do kind of more washing than most people do. You know, not particularly pleasant stuff to talk about, but you know, it's the things that you might not see that people need. And I think, you know, there's a lot of people who that little bit of financial support just helps them kind of survive. And if that's removed, then actually it becomes it might become much

harder for the disabled people in low paid jobs who are currently in work to stay in work, as opposed to kind of push and we saw in the coalition and then conservative governments, you know, it's a very similar language actually about giving it to the people who deserve it most, which is basically saying it deserved and undeserving. That didn't change things. So it feels like we're still tinkering a bit around the edge. This is really complicated stuff. And you kind of need a PhD to understand some of it. but it doesn't feel to me like this is the right solution. It's interesting because you

use some of the same language, speaking of language, tinkering around the edges that some people have used saying that it doesn't go far enough, that it should be more of a slash and burn when it comes to reforms and again I just want to reiterate of course these proposals are for consultation when you talk about your personal situation and indeed PIP. We don't know. They've outlined these four points that you need to hit within a box, shall we say, or a bucket of these various requirements to get the PIP payment. But we don't know what version is going to end up at the very end. Let's talk about work though for a moment because it is a really interesting aspect.

They talk about a key aim, the government, to get people who can work into work. That seems to be something, Tanny, as well, that you're very much pushing for. You mentioned the mandatory pay gap to report on that for example, that's one thing. I've also heard from listeners like about job coaches for example, is that something that you push for, what can they do? Because I think the world that you're so familiar with may be unfamiliar to many of exactly what's entailed. Job coaches sound like a great idea, but we need to find them and train them. And then it's about breaking down the barriers to why more disabled people aren't in work.

So I've had a message from someone who's been for, you know, applied for more than 100 jobs, had something like 80 interviews, and has got turned down because it's very easy, ultimately, for an employer to look at two candidates, go okay non-disabled, disabled, make massive assumptions about what a disabled person can or can't do, think it might be more expensive, more difficult and then go for somebody else. So you know the right to try concept is great but you still need the company at the other end to to employ the person. The reason we have

access to work is because companies aren't making reasonable adjustments. The government shouldn't really be paying for reasonable adjustments for people to be in work. And we haven't really talked about that. I mean, there's massive backlogs. That's not working. But it again comes back to employers not seeing the value of disabled people. And that's again around some of the coverage. You know, it's all about, you know, with PIP, you've got to prove what you can't do to get support.

I lost a philosophical argument last time we did welfare reform, which was more about if we give people financial support, what can they do with it? And that doesn't fit into a nice easy benefits assessment process. But, you know, whatever the new assessment process is going to be, it needs to be done better than the current one, because people get turned down. They go to mandatory reconsideration, they go to, you know, appeal and they might get awards in it anyway. All that is a waste in the system. So I sort of not tongue in cheek, but said actually, disabled people should be part of being paid to do some of these assessments, because they understand

it. And I think one of the last ministers thought I was being a bit flippant and I genuinely wasn't. It was like, you know, there are things that we could do to make the whole system better. We shall continue talking about it because as we've mentioned a number of times, this is the consultation process. I want to thank Baroness Tani Gray-Thompson and also Emily Holshousen from Carers UK as we discuss disability and potential reforms to benefits. Here's Mary, our daughter receives PIP. She would love to work but has completed multiple unpaid trials and schemes, none of which work, none of which last. She's frightened about this change. She just wants work that supports her learning disabilities.

84844 if you would like to get in touch. Now, my next guest is author, broadcaster, campaigner June Sarpong. In 2019 June was appointed the first BBC director of creative diversity and though out of that role now she is still championing inclusion. June has co-written a new book called Calling Una Marson, the extraordinary life of a forgotten icon. It's about the poet, the playwright, the feminist, the activist who made history as the first black female broadcaster at the BBC.

Welcome to Una. Hello, how are you? Very well, great to have you in the Woman's Hour studio. Thank you so much for having me, I'm very excited. Well, I want to come on to Una, but I want to begin with DEI, Diversity, Equality and Inclusion. It's been a huge part of your career and of course, a very big part of Una's story. In January January we saw US President Donald Trump sign executive orders almost immediately once he was inaugurated to end diversity, equity as he has called it and inclusion programs within the federal government. Now we've seen other global corporations follow suit, ditching or scaling back their policies. Some of them are US parent companies, for example, that might have subsidiaries in the UK. Walmart, McDonald's, Meta, Amazon.

Are you concerned about what you're seeing? You know, it's funny. I think the interesting thing with everything going on is that whenever there's change at some point there's pushback and actually what we're seeing is the theory of whether or not diversity is good for the bottom line being tested and in the case of B2C organizations I think the B2B ones can get away with this a bit longer. So business to business. Correct. But anybody that's consumer facing, I think if you go down this road, it will not be a smart choice in the long run. And we're already seeing it in America with boycotts of some of their

biggest consumer chains, particularly Target, and that 15 billion has been wiped off the share price. So I think that what you're seeing now is it actually being tested. But I'm personally not that worried because when you look at the social attitudes of young people, when you look at the social attitudes of a lot of people, actually they expect more from their brands and brands that they're going to support and I think that the ones that continue this route will not be the winners in the end. We will wait and see but you had the role here as I mentioned the BBC's first director of creative diversity. How would you explain your brief there and

what your achievements were? Yeah so my brief was all about content both on radio, what we see, what we hear, all of it and I would say the thing that I'm most proud of is a couple of things. One was the big investment that we made in diverse content so originally it started with a hundred million for on-air programming and then eventually radio actually came on board with another 12. And since I left it's been upped to another 50. So it's just wonderful to see and then to actually be able to see these programs on air that came under that remit is just wonderful. You will remember of course much was made of the fact that you were in £267,000 a year, I have to say for a three day week in that role, significantly more than the Prime Minister for example.

Is that so? I didn't know that. That is, even for a full-time job as Prime Minister. Did you understand the criticism that you received? I did understand the criticism and I will say that actually, you know, when you come from a background like mine, I'm from a working class background, my parents are immigrants. In a way, I think I'm quite proud of the journey that I've made. And you know, my team and I, we put a lot of work into everything that we were able to do. But I did understand the criticism.

So, yeah. Did you expect it? I think whenever you go into a big job at the BBC, it comes as part of the territory, doesn't it? The then director general was Tony Hall. He said of your appointment, while we've made significant progress on diversity, we also have to accept that the BBC is much further to go. Jude's drive, ambition and know-how will help further transform the BBC's programming to ensure that we truly reflect the public that we serve.

You were sitting also on the executive committee. I mean, when you look at on on air diversity, the content that which you were in charge of, it wasn't staff profiles for example. Do you think it's changed? For sure. I mean also don't forget I started out as on air talent. We all know that. And for many years I was the only person on a set that looked like me and that's why I was really passionate about taking up this role because we know the impact that the BBC has on the industry as a whole and actually the BBC is able to get this stuff in a much better place. It impacts the whole industry and I think

for sure when you look at what you see on air, but also who's working behind the camera, which was a lot of the work that my team and I did while I was here, definitely. Is there an example of something you're very proud of? Yeah, well I think Waterloo Road. Waterloo Road came under this banner. And I think that the work that was able to be done

in terms of the local community and involving them in the production was just wonderful and the talent has come through that. And you have stepped down from that role. I mean, I see that there is still criticism. You will have seen it too, no doubt, recently, even in recent weeks. And I did see in your words that you said you were horribly trolled. I'm wondering how you dealt with that. Oh my gosh it was horrible. And to be honest I just kind of stopped looking at it after a while and it had never happened in my career ever. I've been so lucky. It never happened. So that's quite something to think about the trajectory like because you were such an icon in

broadcasting as well that people knew. But like as social media evolved, but you felt with that role, it was the worst it ever was. Worst it ever was and stopped as soon as I left. Funny that. Yeah. There's something about the, the, the, the, the, there's something about the change of this institution and what it can bring out in people in terms of when they're fearful of what that means. So yeah, definitely, as soon as I left it stopped.

Let's talk about Yuna. Please. How did you first hear about her? Oh wow, when I was here. So when I was here, when I first started the role, I commissioned Robert Sita, the BBC's in-house historian, to piece together a timeline of the BBC's diverse history. And he said, well, we have to start with Una. And I couldn't believe I had never heard of her. And so when I sort of was able to comb through the archives, I literally became obsessed. I mean, the archives are quite limited, unfortunately. But still, what there was, I was like, oh my goodness, this

woman was amazing. And literally, I just decided that at some point, once I could, I wanted to be able to tell her story. Her remarkable story. And she was a Jamaican woman, her early life there, but moved to England and, as I mentioned, became the first black female broadcaster at the BBC. And the first black woman on British television in 1937. Well let's talk about that. I loved that part of the book about how she's discovered. Yeah, totally. So it was during the time when the Festival of Britain was taking place and so she and the then Miss

Jamaica were there to sort of speak on Jamaica's behalf. Who was a white woman. Who was a white woman. Well back then that would be the only face that would be considered sort of representative of the colonies. You didn't have people of colour doing that back then, unfortunately. And so she was white of British descent but missed Jamaica. And so Una happened to be in the UK at the same time. So the two of them were on this stand representing Jamaica and the

BBC producer interviewed them and thought, oh my goodness, she's amazing. And so he then contacted Una later and then brought her onto radio. And they started multiple programmes, which then led to Calling the West Indies, which is what she became famous for. Not an easy journey for her though. Tell me a little bit about her life really within that career and the colleagues I suppose that she was surrounded with because she was always the only woman, black woman in the room. Yeah, anywhere she went.

Yes. And also she never fit in anywhere. So if you can imagine, she was born in Jamaica in the early 1900s and in the 1920s she was this feminist, this ambitious woman so didn't fit in in her own community. Then she comes to the UK and Britain doesn't know what to do with her. She's this bright, brilliant black woman but there is nothing else, there's no one else like her and there's no template for somebody like her. But anyway, being the force of nature that she is, she manages to put on a play in the West End, so

becomes the first black person to put on a play in the West End in 1931, then as we said ends up on British television in 1937 and during that time she also worked alongside a man called Harold Moody Who was the first black GP and he became very wealthy? So whenever the young educated students would come to the UK They would stay with him Many of these students went on to become the revolutionaries that fought for independence for their countries from Britain So people like Kwame Nkrumah, Jomo Kenyatta, she worked alongside them all. And then when Haile Selassie was exiled

in 1935, she became his right-hand woman. So there's a speech that's gone viral at the moment of Haile Selassie speaking at the League of Nations and which you know has so many parallels with everything going on right now with Ukraine and and Una was part of the team that wrote that speech and sorry. No no that's great I actually also want to just give a shout out to her play which was at what cost. At what a price. Oh what a price forgive me. Which as you mentioned was the first on the... And is archived at the British Library if anybody wants to read it. Her life was sad though.

She never got the recognition during her life that she deserved. I was just thinking of George Orwell, the statue we have outside. He was a contemporary of hers. Her best friend. So George Orwell, T.S. Eliot, two of her closest friends and it's incredible to see who they rightly became but unfortunately the world just was not ready to give her those sorts of opportunities. What do you think people should take away about Una Marsen? Oh my goodness I just think anybody who reads the book and reads her story will be blown away

by this woman's ability to create a path for herself by her brilliance, her wit. She was also complicated, so she wasn't perfect, she was quite catty as well. Wasn't the easiest person to deal with. But there's a lot of tragedy in her life as well and you know I don't want to give it away but it's quite sad what happens at the end. And there are a lot of things that were unrealized for her and I think in part what Jenny, for her and I, really want this book to do is to sort of fill in some of those gaps that she wasn't able to fill in for herself. And they can do it.

They can. By reading, calling Una Marsen the debut title of a new imprint of HarperCollins, a can? A can books, yes. Spearheaded by you, which is all about publishing voices the mainstream ignores. June Sarpong, thank you so much for coming into us. Thank you. On Woman's Hour. the mainstream ignores. June Sarpong, thank you so much for coming into us. Thank you. What do Bridgerton actor Ajoa Ando, nature presenter Rae Wynn Grant and TikTok sensation Mama Siebs all have in common?

They're all guests on Dear Daughter's Stars from the BBC World Service. I'm Namulanta Kombo. And for the new series of Dear Daughter, I'm welcoming an all-star lineup to share stories of parenting in the spotlight. Listen now by searching for Dear Daughter wherever you get your BBC podcasts. Thank you. Thank you. Now some of your messages that are coming in. Rachel says I claim PIP for my mental health and autism diagnosis. It was very difficult to get and I only got it through challenging the DWP at a tribunal

hearing which I won. I volunteer as a part-time tour guide. I'm not well enough to be in paid employment. I therefore perform a useful role in society but can only do it through PIP. Let me turn to a little bit of football now. Women's football in the headlines this morning because of a pitch. Last night Real Madrid beat Arsenal 2-0 in the Women's Championship League quarterfinal in Spain but commentators have been discussing the standard of the ground that they played on with the former Arsenal footballer and pundit, Iain Wright, calling the surface a disgrace. Here to discuss that with me is Fiona Thomas,

a women's sports reporter at The Telegraph. Good to have you with us Fiona. Tell us a little bit about what happened, what the pitch was like for those that weren't watching. Morning, Nuala. Yeah, you summed it up pretty well there. I mean I watched the match last night, tuned in and i think that i can on my tv the first thing i know it's unfortunately was the state of the pitch it was it was bulky it was you know a section of water pooling all over it and they've been heavy rain uh... throughout the day in madrid yesterday

and uh... straightaway you could just tell it was the the quality of the football that was being played. It was not free-flowing, the ball was bouncing and bobbling around everywhere. And it actually led to Arsenal conceding their opening goal. England captain Leah Williamson, she sort of misjudged the flight of the ball that was coming towards her. And yeah, it massively, unfortunately unfortunately overshadowed the match. Could you imagine men playing on that pitch? Absolutely not you know this was a women's quarterfinal tie in the Champions League you know European football you know massive states

football, you know, massive stakes at play here, there's prize money in this competition to be won, and yeah, it's just completely unfathomable that men would, in a men's Champions League quarterfinal tie, would have to put up with an inadequate pitch that is that, it was a disgrace. What about the club? What did they say? So Arsenal manager Reni Fetches was sort of reluctant to kind of criticize too heavily after the match. I think she handled it pretty well. She sort of maintained that sort of professionalism that, you know, women in the game often do and said, look, we knew about the situation and the standard of the pitch beforehand.

We just had to deal with it. UEFA are yet to comment, as I understand. But it's just so sad that women are having to put up with this. They always get the short straw. The wider context to this is that pitches have been in the news a lot in the women's football world recently, with the Women's League Cup final having taken place just days ago last Sunday between Chelsea and Man City and that again was was played at Derby's ground on a pitch which was completely inadequate and unfortunately, it was muddy, it was boggy and again it impacted the quality of the game being played. I mean, what can they do? I know there's been these conversations taking place.

I'm just wondering what the way to combat it might be. Yeah, unfortunately it's been an issue that women's football has sort of had to grapple with for some time. It's, you know, the WSL has seen its fair share of poor pitches in the past. I think the obvious answer in this scenario was that there are obvious questions as to why Real Madrid, being the richest football club in the world, could not have staged the game at the men's stadium, the Bernabéu, which has a retractable roof. The men didn't play there last weekend.

We're currently on an international break in the men's game and the Real Madrid men aren't due to play there until the end of the month again. And it just begs the belief that there isn't more of this kind of collaboration going on between kind of stakeholders and the women's and men's teams. Why can't we just move the women's and men's teams, you know, why can't we just move the women and make it better for them? And do we, we don't have a comment from Real Madrid, have you heard anything? I haven't as of yet, obviously it's been heavily criticized across social media.

Ian Wright, like you said, could not hide his dismay. He took to Instagram in a state of fury and labeled it as a disgrace and you know he's completely right. There's no other word to describe it. These are professional athletes going out to do their job. They should be treated in exactly the same way as their male counterparts. And I think this whole debacle shows that, you know, we're still a long way off achieving equity in women's football when it comes to facilities and adequate pitches. Fiona Thomas, a women's sports reporter at The Telegraph. Thanks so much for joining us this morning.

I want to move on. I want to talk about forests, among other things, because the Kew International Medal is presented to one individual a year whose work is in line with Kew's mission to ensure that plants and fungi are understood, valued and conserved. Well, this year's winner is sitting opposite me now. I can reveal that it is Cecile Nejebet, an environmental activist and social forester from Cameroon. She's known for her work in promoting women's rights to land and also forests in her country. Cecile, welcome to Woman's Hour. Thank you, Nula. Well, congratulations first off. I'm so happy we were able to reveal that you are the winner.

How does it feel? Oh, so happy, very, very happy, but a little bit surprised because, yeah, but finally very, very happy and I'm feeling encouraged and supported. Okay and talk to me about the role of a social forester. I hadn't seen that term before. Oh yeah the social forest is just linking understanding the interrelation between forests and the humans. How do they interact? And me, I'm from the forest area. The littoral region of Cameroon.

Yes. Which is Francophone. Yes, it's a Francophone area. And I started very early in my young age with my mother and my sister so I really learned what forest was for us and that importance of forest for our life took me to do social forestry studies and for me it's not about seeing the trees but just how the trees help the humans to live, to earn a living and to be happy and to be healthy. And also at such a specific time, of course, when we often speak about deforestation

in many areas as well. You had an interesting path. You talk about being a little girl out with your mom and your sisters, learning all about nature and what the forest could provide. But you did go to university, which was unusual perhaps for a girl. Are you number nine out of how many children? Fourteen. Yeah, out of fourteen, seven boys and seven girls, my mom's good. Yeah. And we had a lot of cousins also at home. Sometimes we were like 15 at home, 20, 16, depending on what, when we were there. But yes, of course, I was very lucky to go to school because my elder sister did not have that chance. My mom was explaining to us that for a woman to be valued, to be a good mother, she needed

to send her daughters to marriage. That was for her, yeah, being a good mother. It means you have really put them, they have a good education, and they will be very good wives. But I was lucky because when I was three, my elder sister was getting married, and she took me with her and there the husband was a school teacher, Catholic school teacher, and he was taking me every day to school and that's how I grew up and I started going to school and yeah, I went on to theomy in Cameroon. Then I was very lucky to have a UK fellowship that took me here in Wolverhampton University. That way I discovered actually gender and community forest. That this is how my pathway was born. Well let's talk about this because this is

woman's hour about women's relationship to the land to the forests and what you're trying to make happen. Yeah in our culture because this is a cultural issue women don't own land they don't own forest they don't own anything in the natural environment. Everything is on man's control and I grew up with that while on the other hand, humans are responsible of food production. And actually working the land. Yes, they are working the land but they don't own it. So they have the user right, they can use it but they will never own it. It means for us who have me, when I saw that the climate change is hitting us very

badly and we really need to do something and based on our government commitment to restoring millions of hectares of land, so I started working with women and helping them to restore the degraded land. But still, we had a challenge to face. How can they get access to those degraded lands? So I started working with traditional chiefs, with male-headed families, to show them the importance of restoring the land and while restoring the land, giving access to women. But giving access, but they still don't own it? No. The male children, yes, but not the daughters.

They don't have it. When you plant a tree in my culture, that piece of land belongs to you. You have the control. So they can do food crop, but they will never have the right to plant a tree on the same pieces of land. So I had to work harder, because knowing all that, part of that patriarchal system, to convince men that this is the way we have to go.

Unless you give the power and the property right to your wife, then she will not be able to plant the tree. And now you are complaining about the climate change that has destroyed everything. Your food crop is destroyed, the rivers are dried up. Let the women plant the trees and they will be planting fruit trees. Have you been able to convince many men? Yes, now we are on the way and the pilot is very progressively successful and I'm sure that it will gain because now we have to upscale it but men are aware that is

important and they are becoming more and more supportive. becoming more and more supportive. You won the Wangari Matai Award in 2022. She was a Kenyan tree activist and campaigner. She was a woman who always talked about, you know, planting the tree and the difference you can make. How was that and what was, I suppose, her effect on you as an inspiration? Yeah, I met Wangari Matai in 2009. Actually she created, she was the first African woman, Nobel Prize, and she created to help the Congo Basing Forest to be sustainably managed, she created a fund called Congo Basing Forest Fund. And our NGO was one of the winner of the first launch of the funding. And she came to Cameroon because she had a meeting there, the board meeting. She was a co-president.

And she said, there is a small organization here who has been funded, so I would like to visit that organization. That's how she visited our organization. And I spent a day with her and she, I really took the opportunity, she explained to me what conversation is all about, how forests are very important, what the key role women are playing. And she told me, you know, in Africa if women don't plant trees, we'll never have anything. So get African women plant trees and ask them and support them and convince them to plant fruit trees. Fruit trees in particular, do you plant trees before I let you go? No we do not. Do you? Yes, me myself of course, yes I plant trees. How many trees do you think you might have planted? Myself, I think I have not that many, but with women, millions of trees so far.

Cecile Nejebet, environmental activist, who has just won the Kew International Medal for her work, as we've heard about here, getting women to plant trees and also campaigning for those land rights for women also in forests. Thank you so much for joining us. Thank you, Néola. Lots of you getting in touch in relation to potential welfare reforms. Ruth says my 17 year old daughter gets PIP and does score four above in numerous categories of daily living. I'm her parent carer. I gave up work to care. Because I'm not in paid work I feel like I have no value in society. My daughter is invaluable. The government need me to be okay to continue to look after my

daughter for the long term. I feel our lives are shrinking. I feel very sad and frightened for my daughter and me. Another from Martha. I'm a mom of two autistic children and the changes in legislation are extremely worrying. For parents caring for children with additional needs, the system's already broken. Anyone can be affected by illness and disability. Disability benefit should be a right in a compassionate society, not an optional extra. 844, if you would like to get in touch with us, you could of course email us through the Women's website as well, if you would like to get in touch with us. You could, of course, email us through the women's website

as well, if you would prefer. I want to turn to a film. It's a new film, War Paint, Women at War. And it examines the trailblazing role of women war artists that they've had on front lines all around the world, championing the female perspective on conflict through art. We'll talk about that. And also asking asking when it's life or death situations,

what is it that women see that men do not? The woman who's been finding that out by speaking to so many incredible artists is Margie Kinmuth, who is the director of that film. Welcome. Thank you for having me. Nice to see you. I feel like I was watching you yesterday for a while so I feel like I know you already. So huge range of women as I've kind of touched on there in this film and their work. What inspired it? Well, I've made lots of films about war art and how artists depict war and how they respond

to conflict. And I suddenly realised, where are the women? Up till now, everything I'd seen is, you know, male art and the male point of view and the male perspective of war and statues, bronze statues of men and heroes. And so I thought, well, for this film, which is the third in a trilogy I just turned totally towards the women and look at the women's war and women in conflict through the eyes of art and artists. How many did you speak to in the film? It must be. Well I spoke to many more some ended up unfortunately not in the film for all sorts of difficult political reasons but I think I've homed in on I mean the work of dozens and probably featuring about 10 artists. I was about to say about 10, yes, so whether it's Dame Laura Knight for example the

World War Two painter or the work of the Dutch artist, Emmercel Hansler, Maya Lin's Vietnam memorial that we'll get into some others as well but I was struck by you asked most of those artists, what do women see that men do not in these situations in a war? What surprised you in their answers? It's a very levelling question. I didn't want to get into gender politics about who's better or who's worse, but what I discovered was women were not afraid to break the taboo and to go into the sort of stigma of the really darkest aspects of war, which for women is

sexual violence against women being used as a weapon of war and rape. And so one of the things I was really looking for was this depiction in art of this subject. And I might get into that because I'm sure it's such a distressing topic to think about, also to talk about, but it was Michelle Hansler, the Dutch artist that I just mentioned that specifically you honed in by into The Crying Game, a series of prints that were inspired by Otto Dix, which was a first World War artist. And I think we should perhaps describe, I would almost describe them as sketches that

in these kind of very light strokes actually portray the horror. For example, a woman, you can, takes you a minute and then you realize it's her figure in the grass and she's been discarded after being raped. Well it's all about the aftermath and I think that's the biggest thing that I learnt for women is it's about what happens afterwards and obviously on the news we're always hearing well there's a ceasefire or this war is over or It's really what the women have to endure that goes on and on So if you've been raped, it's the aftermath which is far worse and in countries like Sudan

to be raped means to be left for rubbish, you know and the darker forgotten war of Sudan the Civil War that you know, you know, and the darker, forgotten war of Sudan, the civil war there, you know, you have the biggest displacement of humanity in the whole world, and a lot of them are women living under Tarpaulin, and their daughters are stolen in the night to be sold. And so we have a situation there, it's so difficult to comprehend and so I applaud the artists that can somehow take us there. And sometimes I'm just thinking of another photograph of a woman on a hospital bed who was a victim, a survivor, but turned towards the wall and it's just in her bodily position that we understand the horror that she has gone through.

You mentioned Sudan there, I want to talk about Asil Diab, this force of nature who is a Sudanese artist. She has created the martyrs, I should say she's also known as Sudelove. These are murals of the faces of people who died in the protest in the Sudanese Revolution. She's working, I mean she's a woman in a sometimes conservative society, on the side of the street painting or spray painting, should I say, these graphics. It's a difficult position to be in, never mind the art she's actually doing. Well she's fantastic and she's incredibly brave and she really makes you think about spray paint and graffiti in a completely different way because she uses it to memorialize and to bring to life the disappeared and the

people who were shot by you know during the revolution and to say she paints on the walls is actually quite strange because there are no walls. Some of the time, you know, the war has totally flattened that country. You might have just a piece of... Yeah. So, and everybody lives out of doors, but she's amazingly brave. You know, she has to climb a ladder and with her back to people watching and she's so she brings to life these characters who are gone and sometimes not even a photograph of them.

I thought that was really striking somebody who was killed or disappeared we don't know but that the family did not have one photograph. Yeah well I thought it was really important to include Sudan because it is a forgotten well they call it a forgotten war, we know it's there but it's so so important. That's one that doesn't make the headlines. One that does of course, including this morning, is Russia Ukraine and I was struck by Zohana Kadyrova. She is Ukrainian. She made, she created instruments, as she calls it. It is a musical organ. We understand that as we look at it. Just think of a usual organ you might see in a church,

but it's made from ballistic missile casings. She also has the most incredible art that I thought was really striking of tiles. So a bathroom, think of a house that has been blown up and the tiles, perhaps part of it, remain on the wall. She's taken those tiles and created maybe a shirt and a pair of trousers that are hanging like a normal thing of domesticity in the middle of this rubble. Well that's exactly it and Shanna is in London today because we've got the premiere tonight which is great that she's come all the way from Ukraine to be here. And for me, it took me a year to find the right artist to kind of bring this Ukrainian thing to life,

if you like, through art. So I found her at the Venice Biennale, where in fact I found quite a lot of the artists in the film at the Biennale. I wanted the film to be very international and Janna is so inventive and extraordinary in her power and that organ that you described she plays it in Keeve railway station and so she's continuously reaching out to people talking through her art. I'm just remembering as well she's got other pieces that are so thought-provoking, but I'm remembering she had a big piece of public art on a street that she needed to remove because they were under fire and she was trying to keep this piece of art safe. And I think that part of your film brings home what people are under. It's really fascinating. I know you go back to, you know, the Falklands War, for example, those in World War II, some parts World War I.

So well worth a watch, I have to say. I learned a lot that I didn't know previously. The film is having its premiere tonight, good luck with that. War Paint, Women at War, the director and writer is Margie Kinmuth who has spoken to all these women and it will be out after its premiere on the 28th of March. BBC Action Line I do want to mention in case you've been affected by anything you've heard some of these topics are very deep and dark and there is on that website links and support. Tomorrow Kylie Pentelow will be joined by Lucy Bronze as we talk about football,

regarded one of the top players in women's football. Lucy has won five Champions League titles, three Women's Super League titles and the Euro 2022 with England. We will never forget that. Lucy will discuss being diagnosed with ADHD and autism four years ago and also the impact it has had on her life since then. We started talking about disability we will continue to talk about that and also welfare benefit reform so do continue to get in touch. Thank you for all your messages today 84844 if you want to text and I will see you again soon. That's all for today's Woman's Hour join us again next time. a text and I will see you again soon. That's all for today's Woman's Hour.

Join us again next time. of a home DNA test. The so-called brother that we grew up with wasn't a brother and there's someone out there, if he's still alive, is. A race against time. I don't want this woman to leave this earth not knowing what happened to her son. The Gift from Radio 4, with me, Jenny Clemon. Listen now on BBC Sounds. What do Bridgerton actor Adjoa Ando, nature presenter Rae Wynn Grant,

and TikTok sensation Mama Seabes all have in common? They're all guests on Dear Daughters Stars from the BBC World Service. I'm Namulanta Kombo, and for the new series of Dear Daughter, I'm welcoming an all-star lineup to share stories of parenting in the spotlight. Listen now by searching for Dear Daughter wherever you get your BBC podcasts.