Woman's Hour - Jung Chang, Labour deputy leader race, Jaysley Beck's mother.

Episode Date: September 9, 2025

Jung Chang’s Wild Swans, the epic family memoir that followed the lives of Jung, her mother and grandmother through China's 20th century, was banned in mainland China, but was a smash hit worldwide upon publication in 1991. Now Jung’s sequel, Fly, Wild Swans, brings her family’s story up to date. She joins Nuala McGovern.The Labour deputy leadership race could be an all-woman affair, with all current declarations coming from female MPs. Nuala gets the lowdown from Kitty Donaldson, chief political commentator for The i Paper.The All Party Parliamentary Group report on PCOS - or polycystic ovary syndrome - has found that women face prolonged delays in diagnosis, fragmented care, and limited access to treatments. The condition is also expected to undergo a name change later this year to more accurately reflect what it is. Nuala hears from Chair of the APPG, Labour MP Michelle Welsh and Caroline Andrews from PCOS charity Verity.Royal Artillery Gunner Jaysley Beck took her own life in 2021, after filing a complaint against Battery Sergeant Major Michael Webber. He had pinned her down and tried to kiss her at a work social event. An inquest into her death earlier this year determined the Army's handling of the complaint played "more than a minimal contributory part in her death". Webber has now pleaded guilty to sexual assault at a pre-trial hearing, and is awaiting sentencing. Jaysley's inquest in February this year heard that her line manager also harassed her, with the Army failing to take action. Jaysley's mother Leighann McCready and her solicitor Emma Norton, from the Centre for Military Justice, join Nuala.Janet Willoner, aka the Tree growing granny, has grown more than 4,000 trees in her garden. She forages for seeds, grows them, and they eventually grow in forests in her local area of North Yorkshire. She has been nominated in the BBC’s Make a Difference Awards in the Green category. She speaks to Nuala.

BBC Sounds, Music, Radio, Podcasts. Hello, this is Newell McGovern, and you're listening to The Woman's Hour podcast. It is indeed. Hello, and welcome to the programme. Well, we have the author Young Chang this morning in the Woman's Hour studio. You might remember her wildly popular book, Wild Swans. You may have bought one of the 13 million copies that were sold. Well, now we have the sequel, Fly Wild Swans, and I'm very much looking forward to hearing more about her life story. Also today, PCOS or polycystic

ovary syndrome, it could get a new name. There's a new report that calls PCOS, that particular moniker, medically inaccurate, leading to barriers to care. And it's just one of the recommendations for the condition, which affects about one in eight women of childbearing age in the UK. We're going to find out what else the parliamentary group found. Also, we're going to speak to Janet Wilner. She is the tree-growing granny.

She's on track to grow, get this, 5,000 trees. Now, she didn't tell anyone what she was up to until she knew her plan was going to work. And I'm wondering, is that something you can relate to? Keeping a project, a plan, a task, all under wraps until you know it's succeeding. If so, let me know what it was. It's time to let it out into the open.

8-4-8-44. Now, Janet is passionate about the environment, and that's why she's planting all these trees at a rate of knots, does that resonate with you? Is there something perhaps you're growing in your back garden or in your community? You can also let us know. 8444.844, as I mentioned, to text on social media.

We're at BBC Woman's Hour. You can email us through our website or you can send us a WhatsApp message or a voice note. That number, 0300-100-400-444. Also this hour, I speak again to Leanne. Macrady. Her daughter, you might remember, Jaisley Beck, who was a soldier, took her own life following sexual assault and harassment in the army. Well, now an ex-Sargeant Major has pleaded guilty to that sexual assault we'll discuss. But let me begin with an update on the Labour

Deputy Leadership Race. You're hearing a little in the bulletin there. It could be an all-woman affair. That's according to Kitty Donaldson, Chief Political Commentator for the I paper who is with me now, the Labour Grandee, Harriet Harmon. She has said she thinks the new deputy leader following Angela Rainer's resignation last week must be a woman. So Bridget Philipson, the Education Secretary, has declared her candidacy this morning. We've also just heard Emily Thornberry adding her name to that of the left wing. Also to that, you probably would have heard earlier this morning, left wing Labour MP Belle Ribeiro Addy. So we have three names in the list there. Kitty, Do you think it's going to be an all-female race and welcome?

Thank you. Yes, I do. For a couple of reasons. One is that they are filling the shoes of Angela Rainer, obviously as a deputy to a male prime minister, and now the prime minister has put David Lammy, and this is deputy prime minister. There's a very strong feeling in the Labour Party that it should be a woman. And also because the kind of the Labour Party has this sort of institutional guilt that they've never had a leader who's been a woman.

So this would put that person into quite a strong position come the next leadership election for the Labour leader. So that's why I think we'll get a woman. I was talking to a Labour MP yesterday and I was saying, you know, are there any blokes who've put their names forward or who are taking soundings? And they said, well, I've heard rumors that some men are taking soundings, but actually I've not heard from any of them.

So if they are, they're doing in a rather sort of lackluster manner and not making much progress, I think. What about geography in all of this? We're talking about gender. Yes, absolutely. I mean, more so than gender, geography is absolutely fascinating. There's both Andy Burnham, the Mayor of Greater Manchester and Harriet Harmon, the former deputy leader herself, have said it should be a northern woman. And actually that's a consensus that seems to be growing in the party, which of course cancels out Emily Thornbury,

who is from the south, and so is Bel-Rabira Adi, who is a London MP. So this is where it gets interesting because Bridget Philistina, who has declared, is obviously from a northern MP, but so also is Lucy Powell, who was former leader of the House of Commons, and she was the one sacked on Friday

by the Prime Minister in his reshuffle. And what I was picking up yesterday is there's a lot of support for Lucy Powell in the background, and I suspect that we might see, her declare her candidacy before the end of the day. Well, things are moving pretty swiftly this morning. So no doubt the day will also continue.

But if it does galvanise into a candidacy for her, what do you think that means for Secure Stormer? Well, this is turned into a fascinating contest between people who will be loyal up to a point. So I don't think we'll see much of, you know, Bridget Phillipson as a member of the cabinet it's bound by cabinet collective responsibility. So she can't go out and sort of, you know,

be incredibly rude about Kea Stama during this contest because she's therefore attacking her, the record of her own government. And those who are not on the front bench, so Thornbury, Ribeiro Adi, and Lucy Powell, who is now also a backbencher, and they are given, you know, they've got much greater licence,

and in fact already have launched their bids with sort of stinging criticism of Kea Stama. So it's become, having a kind of battle for the future direction of the party, it's all ideological, whether the party should sort of tack to the left, go after those votes, you know, on, for children, on benefits, or, and Gaza, or whether it should sort of tack to the right and try and take on reform. The centre, number 10, is very much tacking to the right. We saw that with the appointment of Shabana Mahmoud as Home Secretary.

That was a deliberate attempt to try and speed up tackling the small boats crisis. But many on the left of the party are saying, no, no, enough's enough. This is the Labour Party we're talking about. We should be more consistent with what we stand for. Interesting. And Shabana Mahmoud this time yesterday we were talking about her, but she is not putting herself forward for the Deputy Labour leader. We've talked about Labour voice.

We saw, for example, there was the greater Manchester Mayor Andy Burnham, Health Secretary West Streeting, both talked about North of England, as we've been speaking about there. In the past, the Conservative Party haven't said a woman, for example, or Northern woman, as Labour is saying right now, would it be fair to say that for all three of their female Prime Ministers, for the Conservatives, the fact that they are a woman has not been a campaign issue? Absolutely. I mean, because they despise identity politics, I guess. And I mean, the Tories are very, what's the word, smug about this because, and also it's not just women, isn't it? You know, Rishi Sunak was the first Prime Minister of Asian descent. And they seem to get there without the party having a massive sort of soul-searching debate every time. And yet Labor fundamentally see, and that, I think West Streeting said this morning that Labor needs a woman leader in the not-too-distant future.

But what seems to happen is every time they get near there, something happens to go, oh, I'm not quite sure, maybe not this time. And that's what happened with, I think, with Kirstama and it's happened in the past. So it would be fascinating to see in the next couple of years, whether Kirstama lasted the election or not, who that person becomes. Next few years. Let's see what happens in the next few hours, Katie Donaldson. Thank you very much ever, spending a few minutes with us.

I know it's a very busy day for you. 84844 if you'd like to get in touch. But despite all that focus on the Labour Party and also its leadership contest, it is business as usual in Westminster. Yesterday, an all-party parliamentary group had a report on PCOS or polycystic ovary syndrome and it was published.

Now, it found that women face prolonged delays in diagnosis, also fragmented care, and limited access to treatments. Also, as I was just mentioning at the top of the program, the condition is also expected to undergo a name change to more accurately reflect what it is. So I'm joined now by Labour MP, Michelle Welch, chair of the PCOS APPG, a lot of letters there,

and someone who took 17 years to get a diagnosis of this condition. She's probably not alone in that. Caroline Andrews as well from the PCOS charity Verity. she got her diagnosis at 19. Welcome to both of you. Caroline, I want to start with that, the name change. I mean, it kind of trips off the tongue now, PCOS. Why would something like that help?

That's a very complicated question to answer in a short space of time. At the moment, and this has been a growing sort of consensus since 2016, there's a lot of momentum around 2023. But polycystic ovar syndrome doesn't actually accurately reflect the condition itself. A lot of people think that the cystic. of the cause and they're not actually cysts at all. They're actually undeveloped eggs that aren't released. It can get confused with ovarian cysts and so it can be a barrier to care to diagnosis and to the management. In particular, a lot of people in terms of ethnic minorities find that

the focus on fertility can be a barrier to care and understand the condition. It also causes a huge amount of misunderstanding that this is not just a reproductive issue, but there's chidea metabolic issues, their endocrine issues linked with it. There's risks of things such as type to diabetes, cardiovascular conditions. And so the emphasis on polysysis, when they're not cis at all, actually can be quite a difficult barrier for research, patient care, and the understanding of the condition. So is there a name that you would call it instead? There's lots of names being suggested.

So this is actually a global effort across many different organisations. So the CRA out of Australia, as well as the. and Gen Excess PCWRES Society globally and Verity as well as a patient advocacy group. At the moment, there's tendency to look at potentially whether there should be a pathological base name around some other symptoms. And that's largely as being medicine and science and research has been developing and understanding the condition. Alternatively, should the monocor of PCS be kept, but not necessarily stand or polysic ovary

syndrome, or whether a more neutral name should be kept when it was first diagnosed. in 1935, it was actually called Stein Leavenhall syndrome. And around 1960s, it changed. So there's also potentially caused whether it should have a neutral name, a bit like we know Alzheimer's or Parkinson's or diabetes, so it doesn't necessarily reflect the condition. It's so interesting, isn't it? Just how something kind of comes in to the consciousness,

and I suppose it would be a big leap, but I understand why you are calling for a change. Michelle, good to have you with us as well. With your report, what else is needed? What would you put on the front burner? Well, for me, obviously this is a landmark report for so many reasons. But for me, we need a national PCOS diagnostic pathway to cut those waiting times. Young women today will be going to doctor surgeries across this country with symptoms of PCOS.

And it will take them years and years and years to be diagnosed. and so for me that is absolutely essential that we cut those waiting times and we establish those women's health hubs as well so what we found when we've spoken to people is that to women is that they're diagnosed and then the door is closed okay you've got PCOS like let's see you later

you know kind of get on with it because you as I was reading to our listeners it took 17 years to get a diagnosis of the condition. Do you understand what were the barriers that stood in your way? The barriers are what we hear very often whenever we talk about women's health, and you would have heard it on your program before, no doubt, is that women's health is often ignored. Women's symptoms are often ignored. And for me, personally, it was, it's period pains. You're a woman. Deal with it. You know, it's just how it is. And it's not just how it is. You know,

out at Sixth Form College, I saw, I had to sit GCSEs and A-Levels in absolute agony. And all I was given for it was tape paracetamol, ibuproofin. So it affected my mental health as well. Yeah. And please tell us more as well, if you would like, about how it affected your life. Because I just think that 17 years is so long. Well, you know, various things. I mean, at one point when you get to the point where you want,

to have a child as well and you've already been told that PCOS will probably mean that you'll never have children. I had a fertility nurse tell me that the reason I'd PCOS was because I was fat and that if I lost weight, it would just go away. And so you carry all of that with you. You think that this illness is your fault. And this is why I felt so passionate about it, about supporting Verity and being chair of this APPG because I don't want any young. woman to ever go through what I went through. You know, you hear Caroline's story as well, who's on the show today. People are waiting far too long for this diagnosis, and she's mentally torturing for women.

It is mentally torturing, and I don't say that, you know, lightheartedly, the journey from when you are diagnosed to, you know, to now, well, it's just incredibly difficult for women. And we have to find a way where that stops. Let me turn back to you, Caroline. Verity, the charity, are involved in developing the new nice guidelines. That's for next year for 2026. And I suppose this report will feed into that as well. How hopeful do you feel?

Hopeful is a strange word to use. Bearing in mind, I mean, personnel lived with this condition for 20-odd years. Verity as a charity was established in 1997. And whilst stories, and again, I use. the words that my diagnosis of eight years was unremarkable. 15 visits to the GP. No indication at the time, apart from being told that I wouldn't have children, which is factually incorrect. No understanding the impact upon the other issues. And again, dealing with the work within Verity, I'm understanding more and more about this condition that has a lifelong impact on women

and those assigned female birth. But with the guidelines, and I think it's very important, you have no direct sort of prognosis routes at the moment. The diagnosis criteria we are using from 1993, science and research has obviously developed massively since then. There's international guidelines by Monash University, which are very thorough overview as to diagnosis, procedure, management tools and things like that. And individuals go in turn, we're hearing it time and time again, I took eight years, Michelle was 17, 18 years.

We're still finding nowadays that, young women are going to the doctors, they're getting told it's just a period of problem, periods of settle down, go on the pill, that's what we can do. And they're taking years to get diagnosed. So having a clear diagnosis pathway, as well as a management pathway after that diagnosis, understanding the complex long-term conditions, not only will benefit these individuals, but also the NHS. Women with peace with understanding there's an increased prevalence of type 2 diabetes,

women understanding there's cardiometabolic risks, a slight increased risk of endometriac answer, having this information to self-advocating to empower yourself to deal with this condition will be massively important. Because what I'm thinking when I'm listening to both of you is that you're obviously very good advocates by dint of the jobs that you do, but we hear of the length of time it took to get a diagnosis. Back to you, Michelle, your party is the one in power. What are you hearing from them about how likely the recommendations of this report are to be accepted? Have you spoken to the Health Secretary West Streeting, for example? so I know that West Streeting is very committed to improving women's health

and he does understand it and he does get it but now armed with this report as we were talking yesterday is that armed with this report we will be and I will be personally banging on West Street in store with regards to this I think it was important that we had this report ready because I think that is the evidence that we need for people to take us seriously for far too long we've been talking about this for far too long we haven't been listened to but now

we are armed with all of the evidence and you know we are going to go for it we really really are because people have been campaigning on this far longer than what i have far longer when i could even understand what the condition was i met people yesterday that have been campaigning for this for over 20 years and there'll be people campaigning it for even more So we are at a real critical point and we will not be going away on this because as you have heard there'll be women going into doctor's surgeries today

with pains, with anxiety, with worry for the future and they'll be given incorrect information that has to stop. Interesting. Thank you for that. Michelle, while I do have you here because this is part of the business of Westminster, of course, which you've been doing with your report,

but we can't ignore as well. The deputy leadership contest that is ongoing you're a Labour MP. I was asking some of my previous guests yesterday and also today about women on the list. Would you be pleased to see an all-female list of candidates for Deputy Labour Leader? I would be very pleased to see an all-women list

to be the deputy leader. I think we need a woman that actually gets our working class communities, our job is now to get a woman into deputy leader and I know I've got strong feelings about who that woman needs to be but perhaps now is not the time to declare that feel free to declare it right now okay well yeah so I would really love to see Bridget Philipson as the deputy leader of the Labour Party

I think what she has done so far as a cabinet minister with regards to children and young people which is the other thing that I feel really passionate about free school, you know, the free school meals, the breakfast clubs, the childcare, the 30-hour childcare, all of those promises that we made in the manifesto. I've met with her on many, many occasions. She's visited a school in my constituency. I've had two new nurseries in my constituency in the most poorest, deprived parts of my constituency. That's what we should be doing as a Labour Party, and that's what we should be doing as a Labour government. So I'm putting it out, I will be supporting Bridget Philipson for deputy leader. So says Labour MP, Michelle Welch, here on Women's Hour. There are, there will be MPs, of course, who decide. There are other candidates, as we've been speaking about this morning,

that are standing perhaps some more declared before the end of the day. But I want to thank you, Michelle Welch, and also Caroline Andrews, speaking about PCOS, which I can see has struck a chord with many of our listeners already. I'll read out some of those messages throughout the hour. I do also want to read a statement from the Department of Health and Social Care. They say women suffering from gynecological conditions, including polycystic ovary syndrome, PCOS, have been failed for far too long. That's why we're turning the commitments in the women's health strategy into tangible action, already delivering 4.9 million extra appointments, tackling gynecology waiting lists using the private sector,

improving training for doctors on women's health and updating guidance to improve the treatment and management of PCOS. if, in fact, that name stays, as we've been talking about. Right, I want to turn to a book, to books. Many of you will remember the book, Wild Swans. It came out in 1991, and it became an enormous hit for the author, Young Chang. It was an epic family memoir, followed the lives of young, her mother and her grandmother through China's tragic 20th century.

It was banned, it actually remains banned, in mainland China. But elsewhere, it gave an unprecedented. Precedented insight into Chinese history, including the impact of Chairman Mao, communism and the cultural revolution. Now, Young, you'll be very happy to hear for those fans of wild swans. She has written a sequel, Fly Wild Swans. And it brings her family story and events in China up to date. Young joins me in studio. Good morning.

Good morning. Thank you for having me. We're so happy to have you. I mean, just before we came on air, you popped in for a photograph and you said, you know, you were here 30 years ago. Indeed. Indeed. And it's 30 years since you wrote White Swans.

Why the sequel now? Well, you see, Wild Swans was published in the early 1990s. Since then, nearly half a century has gone by. And I just feel it's time to bring the stories of, my mother and me and my family and that of China up to date because while swangs ends in 1978 with me coming to Britain

becoming one of the first Chinese to leave China to study in the West. A lot of things happened, a lot of dramatic events and my life and the life of my mother have changed tremendously. And of course, my grandmother had died in a cultural revolution, and so had my father. So I feel it's time to, you know, to update our stories.

But, of course, you don't have to have read wild swans in order to understand fly wild swans. It's also about the past as well as today. Because 1978, as we know, almost 50 years ago, you came to London. you were 26. What do you remember of those first days in London? I understand the only Western film you had seen was The Sound of Music. Yes, indeed, I was 26. I had come from a country that had been completely isolated from the outside world.

I had no idea what the West was like, how people lived. As you said, the only film I had seen was the Sound of Music. which I went to see, which I got this incredibly valuable tickets for. And I rode a borrowed bicycle for hours in a great wind to go and watch it in the open air. And I only read about half a dozen contemporary Western books. And it was like landing on Mars to have come to Britain. And you reminded me of a line in your book just when you talk about, you'd only read a few books that under Mao, what would I say, the statement from the government was, the more books you read, the stupider you become. Yes, yes. I mean, you know, it sounds unbelievable, but for 10 years, more than 10 years, there were no books in China.

Books were burned across the country. I mean, no books on sale, and we only had Mao's little red book to read. In those years, you know, museums were closed, cinemas and the theatres were turned into quasi-prisons. And my mother was imprisoned for quite a few years in the former cinema. So China was a cultural desert. And it was all a part of the cultural revolution to try and rid itself of capitalist or traditional aspects in Chinese society and really stick the stake in the ground for communism. Well, I mean, I think actually it was more, kind of less grand than that. And it was really Mao's great part of his opponents.

because Mao had caused the great famine, the biggest famine in Chinese history, about 40 million people died of starvation between 1958 and 1961. And the reason for the famine was Mao was exporting the food. He knew his people were dependent on to the Soviet bloc to buy military industries. so he could when they dominate the world. And so there was a lot of opposition to that. So much so that Mao decided to have his great purge,

which happened in 1966. So let us turn. So you are leaving all that and you come to the UK. I was also reading September, 1978, it's September now. I'm wondering, do you reflect on that time when the seasons change? of how your life changed? Well, I mean, it was the most exciting first couple of years

when I was in Britain, and I came with a group of 14 people. We were all wearing the Mao suit, and we were quite a sight in London streets, because we were not allowed to go out on our own. We had to move in a group. But of course, I was accused, I was immensely curious about the society, the new society in my Wonderland. We were particularly banned from going into a pub because the Chinese translation for pub is Jouba,

which suggested somewhere indecent with nude women gyrating. But I was torn with curiosity. I was dying to see it. I knew there was a pub across the road from the college and one day I darted across the road I pushed the door of the pub open

and of course I saw nothing like that only some older men sitting there drinking beer I was rather disappointed but imagine my excitement I mean everything here was new you know I was struck

as well that you hadn't seen never mind naked women You hadn't seen any public displays of affection between couples before you came really to London. I think you saw one person from Hong Kong, which wasn't part of mainland China, one time put their head on somebody's shoulder. And that was considered quite shocking. What was it like when you came to London and you see people that are, I suppose, just much more sexually liberated? Well, there was the moment when I decided I must have my. sexual liberation. So I obviously had a great time. And I remember I was with my boyfriend,

with the boyfriend, because the rules relaxed and I was constantly breaking rules. And I had a boyfriend. And in those days, we were told that if we had a foreign boyfriend, we would be cut it off back to China in a jute sack and drugged. And so that was a huge taboo, but I broke that taboo. And I was with this lovely man. And so I told him that when I was in China, a girlfriend told me that if you, because in those days, to lose your virginity was considered a crime. And I saw women being pronounced, subject to denunciation meetings for being worn shoe, which means having sex outside. The worn shoe.

Yes, a worn shoe. And so I was telling this man that in China, girls believed that if you had a relationship, you could have an operation to sow your hymen. back. And he was absolutely shocked. He said, what? Are you living in the middle ages? And I thought China was a progressive country. But in fact, those communist states were the most conservative. Why were you so brave, do you think? Because I'm thinking of this young woman coming from China with all the things that you had seen and, you know, being taken off in a jutsack, might have been a rumor. But you do know, that terrible.

things did happen to women? Well, I think I was so curious. I mean, I was full of curiosity and I just simply could not suppress my curiosity. And I just rather take risks. I think that's sort of in my character. Both my mother and my grandmother were not contented with their lots

and they took risks. Let's talk about your mother for a moment. She had this phrase. She said to your father, you are a good communist but a rotten husband. Do you want to tell us a little bit more about why she said that? Well, when my mother was giving birth to me and doctors said that it was going to be a dangerous birth

and my mother should be transferred to another city where they had the proper hospitals and specialists. My father was the communist governor of the region, but he vetoed the suggestion because he said as a communist he mustn't give privilege to his wife. That's when my mother said, you may be a good communist, but you are a rotten husband. And as it happened, it wasn't a disaster. I came out of her a healthy baby of nine pounds. And so that's when my mother was happy and forgave my father. But so illustrative of how deeply he held his values, for example,

within the Communist Party even to the detriment potentially of his wife who he loved. I want to speak a little bit more about your mother. I believe you saw her last in 2020. Yes. In fact, after my book, Wells Swans was published, the regime was relatively relaxed and tolerated me so I could still travel in China. But in 2005, when my biography, written with my husband, John Halliday, was published about Mao. About Mao, a biography of Mao. And I was, the regime wanted to ban me from going to China to see my mother. The British government, in fact, David Miliband was the Foreign Secretary,

he helped me and reached an agreement with Beijing to allow me to go to Beijing, to go to China, to see my mother. So for about 10, 2 weeks, 10 days or 2 weeks, every year. But this changed when Xi Jinping came to power. And China became a dangerous place, particularly dangerous for me. The year 2018 was the year he made himself the permanent supreme leader of China. And one of the very first announcement he made was to make it a crime punishable by imprisonment.

If you had insulted revolutionary leaders or heroes, and as the writer of Mao, who was regarded as the biggest hero, you know, whose portrait is still on Tiananmen Gate and his face is on every Chinese banknote. And of course, I would be, you know, thrown right into prison the moment I set food on Chinese soil. So I couldn't risk this. But of course, it's sort of agonizingly painful because my mother is still living in Chengdu in China. And she is 94. She's in bad health. And she's, you know, we're dying. But I couldn't go, I can't go and see her.

So, of course, you know, that's a very painful thing. And it's the price we have to pay for being honest, writing honest books. What a story. Of course, it's your mother's hours and hours of taped interviews that created wild swans when she did come to London. And I do hope you get to communicate with her, if not get to go and see her. But I want to thank you so much for coming in, Young Chang. It's always such a pleasure to listen to you and your stories.

I should let people know. Fly Wild Swans is out next week. Thanks very much. Thank you for having me. Now, I want to let you know that I need your thoughts on something. About your friendships, do you feel at all that they are suffering? Is there too many things getting in the way of you devoting time and energy to them? Maybe you have too many friends to accommodate.

Maybe you've an embarrassment of riches there. Have meetups turned into quick catch-up chats? Or maybe they're just text messages. Maybe you feel some friends expect more effort from you than you can give them right now. Now, if this is something, you're like, yeah, some of that, I tick those boxes. You can text Woman's Hours 844 on social media at BBC Woman's Hour. or you can email us through our website.

Also, we would love to hear from you any of those kind of ideas that are percolating. Let me know your thoughts. Also, growing, I want to talk about in a little bit. Somebody got in touch. I'm growing mustard seeds in planters in my garden in Edinburgh. My plan is to spread mustard making by offering a free workshop to community groups

once I've harvested my first crop. It's very easy to grow mustard anywhere. My diagnosis of type 2 diabetes has led me to research ways to make health. healthier foods, exciting, and homemade mustard is a cheap, sustainable hack. Keep them coming. Now, I want to move on to a story that we have covered for a number of years. That is the death of Royal Artillery Gunner, Jaisley Beck, who took her own life in 2021.

Jaisley had filed a complaint against Battery Sergeant Major Michael Weber after he pinned her down and tried to kiss her at a work social event. An inquest into her death earlier this year determined the army's handling of the complaint played, and I quote, more than a minimal contributory part in her death, unquote. Army say Sergeant Major Michael Weber has now pleaded guilty to sexual assault at a pre-trial hearing. He is awaiting sentencing. The sexual assault was not the only abuse that Jaisley was subjected to in the army.

Her inquest in February this year heard that her line manager also harassed her with the army failing to take action there too. Jaisley's mother is Leanne Mcready. She has been campaigning for better protection for women in the army. She's been supported by her solicitor Emma Norton, who runs the Centre for Military Justice and is appearing at an event tomorrow. It's called Speaking Out about the military.

Both join me now. Leanne, good to have you back with us. Thank you very much for taking the time. Good morning, thank you. You know, I was thinking back to the last time we spoke and we spoke about the word solace. and I was just wondering with this latest development whether the guilty plea brings you any sort of comfort

that to be honest is a very difficult question a mixture of emotions not just for myself but for my whole family because in our eyes he was guilty when he wrote the letter and delivered the letter to my daughter Jaisley admit him what he did and for us now he has served his time in the military

and he's gone through his retirement and now admitted guilt and that is very very difficult for us if I'm honest what comfort it does have for us is the fact that we don't have to go through a court case you talk about some of the instances there that brought you pain because it has taken four years how do you understand the length of time that it took

I quite simply don't understand the length of time that it's taken the military were fully aware it had not only been reported twice by my daughter Jaisley to the chairesley to the chair of command she followed the correct procedures in the in how she should have reported it and it was also after sadly my daughter's passing and I think with me possibly a week after our daughter's passing it was also reported by myself and family and when we travel down to Lark Hill for a meeting with again the chain of commands and in that room 40 to 50 people were present when we said exactly what had happened

and this is almost four years ago. The last time we spoke it was after the inquest which I mentioned some of the findings there did you expect the inquest to be so critical? That's again very difficult because it's not something you go through as a family in life I will be forever thankful of the support from the coroner and the in-depth inquest that he took out in regards to our daughter. When we spoke last time as well, I remember you said you're doing what you're doing because Jaisley would have spoken up for others as well.

Absolutely. Jaisley wore a hat, honestly. and that is the reason why I continue to do what I'm doing and keeping Jaisla's voice going. Do you think things are improving? Quite honestly, no. Why do I not think that? Because the people surrounding what happened with Jaisley are still serving.

So for that matter, no. things are not improving. Let me bring in Emma here as well. There is the symposium called Speaking Out of Anglia Ruskin University taking place and it is to be about empowering voices against military sexual trauma. It's all about speaking out. We know we heard from Leanne this time and previously that Jaisley did speak out and that it is such a difficult thing to do.

Explain to me your thinking with this particular symposium. Yeah, well, the symposium, as I understand it, and I've just been invited to speak, I'm not hosting it. Yes. But it's about trying to encourage people who've been directly affected by the kinds of behaviours that Leanne's referring to, to speak out publicly, to communicate with Parliament, to take legal advice, if necessary to communicate in the press.

And part of the problem we've seen for many, many years, is that there has been a blanket ban on service personnel being able to communicate about anything to do with defence publicly unless they first go and get the permission of the MOD. Now, if you think about the kinds of scenarios that Jaisley was facing and lots of her friends were facing, how impossible it is to do that. You can't expect somebody who's been sexually assaulted

to go to an MOD press officer and say, I've been sexually assaulted, please, can I speak to a woman's hour? It just doesn't work like that. has the intended effect is to ensure that people don't speak out. So we've been involved in a legal challenge to that policy. And the Secretary of State Defense, it took nearly four years, finally conceded that that policy is unlawful.

He's replaced it with a new policy, which we think is almost as bad as the original one. So that case is still going to court. But yes, there is this overwhelming culture reinforced by policy that prevents people from speaking out and seeking help when they need it. So it would need to be that the actual laws within it are changed or policies are changed, should I say, for people to be able to do what you're calling for, or what the symposium is calling for, should I say. Yes, well, I think legally the position is that servicemen and women can communicate publicly on a whole range of issues such as military, sexual trauma, sexual harassment, racism.

It's just that they are told that they can't. Which I think Jaisley came up very much against Leanne. And for people that haven't followed Jayesley's story, I do also want to let them know that the inquest that we were speaking about also found the Army's failure to take action after she was harassed by her line manager. That was the former bombardier Ryan Mason

and that had also contributed to her death. The inquest heard he sent over 4,600 messages confessing his feelings for her and showed her a 15-page love story he had written detailing his fantasies about her. But in both instances, the action wasn't taken. It was announced Emma last week

that Royal Assent has been given for a new Armed Forces Commissioner. The government says this will be an independent champion to support armed forces and their families. Your thoughts on that? In principle, it's a very good thing. There are some serious limitations on the powers that we would have wanted the Commissioner to have,

such as the power to conduct their own investigations into individual complaints. We would have liked to have seen that. But critically, they are independent in that they are reporting to Parliament, not the MOD. That's very important. And also critically, they can undertake thematic investigations. So if they are receiving accounts of particular instances of concern that appear to be more than a one-off, they can conduct their own thematic investigation.

And that has obviously a great deal of potential. So there's that. And then there's also the government mentioned that independent system for investigating serious complaints separately. I want to go back to you, Leanne, because I remember. remember very much you were calling for an independent overseer. Do either of those assuage some of your concerns? Again, that's hard for me to comment where they are at with the independent procedure. It's, I can't honestly say.

Yeah, okay. definitely some doubts still there. Do we know when it comes to investigating serious complaints by an independent system away from the Commissioner Emma when it will work? We already heard four years to get to this point for Leanne and her family. Yeah, I mean, we are very concerned about that.

It's really important to know that the army came along to Jaisley's inquest saying it was not going to change the complaint system and it gave evidence that the inquest has to be. White didn't think it was necessary, and it was only because of the advocacy that Leanne and her family undertook afterwards the public outcry and all of the hundreds of other people who reported publicly that they'd had the same kinds of experiences, that they were essentially dragged, kicking and screaming, to say to the Defence Committee, okay, we're going to introduce a tri-services investigation scheme. We don't have any further information about how that's

going to work. Is there a way to change what I think you're going to you're describing as a culture, Emma, that you have encountered. It's really, really difficult because even if you succeed on individual cases, it always triggers the same response, which is we have a zero tolerance response to these kinds of behaviours. Well, they've been saying that, it's not just the last few years they've been saying that. They've been saying that since 2014 when I started doing this kind of work. And it just doesn't seem to shift the dial.

Now, there are important changes. are doing a lot of work. It's really important to recognise that. But this is an overwhelmingly male institution. And there are very, very serious challenges for women trying to build careers inside it, particularly young women, who have to manage an awful lot of challenging male behaviours around them, which can range from relatively mild, over-friendly behaviours to sexual assaults and the kinds of things that Jaisley was dealing with. I want to thank both of you for joining us, Leanne McCready, also Emma Norton, thanks to both of you. We did ask the Ministry of Defence to comment.

We have not heard back. And I do want to say if you've been affected by any of the issues raised here, you can go to the BBC Actionline website for information and advice. Messages coming in on PCOS. Fiona says I was diagnosed in 2005, age 34. I've never had any treatment. I'm fascinated to hear there is treatment. my 24-year-old daughter has just been diagnosed

after suffering since she was 14. She was refused to scan as the GP says there was no point as even if she had it there was nothing that could be done only when she left our country did she get listened to another one from Freya

suspected IPCOS for years I pushed and pushed and finally had bloods in late 20203 I was told it's not really an issue unless you're trying to get pregnant come back to us when you've tried and failed I asked about other symptoms such as weight gain, blood sugar issues etc. was told

they wouldn't deal with those, nor will they retest my bloods two years on to see if there's any improvement or worsening in my levels. Now, I want to move on to a woman who is passionate about saving the planet from climate change and is doing something about it. Janet Williner, aka the tree-growing granny, has grown more than 4,000 trees in her garden. She forages for seeds, grows them, and eventually they grow into forests, grow in forests, maybe not into forests in her back garden, but she plants them then in the forest in her local area of North Yorkshire. She's been nominated in the BBC's Make a Difference Awards

in the Green category, aptly, and joins me now from her home in North Yorkshire. Hello, good to have you with us, Janet. Hello, thank you for having me. So happy to have you. So why did you take on this challenge of growing a copious amount of trees? Well, it started out because I was deeply saddened

by the destruction that the human race have caused on this beautiful planet of ours. And I wanted to do something that would somehow mitigate the problems that we've got and that mostly have been caused by a bit of ignorance, but mostly it's searching for power, profit and greed, really. So you take it into your own hands, with some seeds. I understand that you forage for them, as I mentioned. But you were keeping this whole project under wraps as well until you saw it was going to take off. It must have been so exciting to see those first shoots. It was incredibly exciting. And it was just when

lockdown started. And the first week of lockdown, I'd been staring at these pots of soil for a long all through the winter and that day when lockdown was started I saw the first green shoots come up and I was absolutely

over the moon how hopeful that is as an image what trees are there are they that you are growing well I try to grow mostly the native species but I do

have a few others as well So there's about 20 different species. There's the oak, obviously. Oh, I love the oak. I love the oak. Yes, yes. I think it's everyone's favourite. The hazel, the rowan, the birch, the spindle.

I'd never heard of spindle. I learned that while I was doing this project. I learned it last night when I was reading about you. But how difficult is it to grow these trees? It's not difficult at all. Basically, what you're doing is burying seeds in soil. And the seeds know what to do. They will grow.

At least most of them do. And this target, 5,000 in 10 years, which I believe you're actually ahead of your target, how did you pick that? well the first year was an experiment really and I had no plans for continuing I just wanted to give it a go and I found that I'd got at the end of the season I'd got about 400 trees I'd financed that all myself and I'd so enjoyed doing it that I thought if I'm going to continue which I would like to do, I need some support.

I need some sponsorship. And I was also thinking, well, how many could I grow? And I decided that I probably had 10 years of active life left. And if I could grow a few more than I'd done, say, say 500, say 500 a year, I could then, for years, I could grow 5,000 trees. And that would be a reasonable legacy. Sure it is. So that's what I put forwards. And a local firm has sponsored me since then. And you've been nominated for the BBC Local Make a Difference in the Green category, as I mentioned. How does that feel? Well, it's nice that I think what I would like to do,

is to see it spread such that other people could take on doing something similar. Because what I can do as an individual person is just a drop in the ocean. But an ocean is made out of lots of drops. So if other people could do something similar. So I don't mind if it gets known about as long as it helps other people to get and do something similar. But you did keep it a secret, Janet, for quite a while before letting the cat out of the bag. Was it just a fear of failure? Well, yes, I was a bit unsure of myself and didn't really know if it would work and all the rest of it.

But as soon as they started germinating and I could see the results, then I was happy to tell people what I was doing. And they were very supportive. And people have been very supportive and helped. for write from the word go. Well, I have to say, I threw it out to our listeners this morning about things that they kept under wraps.

One person got in touch says they wrote a book, but kept it under wraps until they knew they had a contract to write. It's been published later this month. Congratulations. I think it's about feeling exposed maybe. Also can be a bit niche. Somebody else says they kept the secret of the Alternative Women's Institute calendar

from when they took to photos till they launched six months later in April 12th, 1999. Some people might remember that. I'm Miss October, says this listener, and it was all my idea. Well, listen, best of luck with the Make a Difference Awards. I understand they're going to be announced

on the 19th of September. We wish you all the luck. Thank you very much. And it's so good to hear the story of Janet Wilner. Again, the BBC Local Make a Difference Awards, and she is in the green category. Now, I want to let you know a little bit about tomorrow's program, a really interesting discussion coming up

because we have all heard about the fight or flight response in the face of danger, but there's also freeze. You might have heard of that one. But what about fawn? It's also known as people-pleasing or appeasing, but there's a lot to it. So says clinical psychologist Dr. Ingrid Clayton. She's written a book about this.

It's called fauning. Tomorrow I'll be speaking to her about her own teenage experience that made her want to help others over. overcome this form of trauma response. Also, I'm going to be speaking to the Irish comedian Emma Dornan about the madness and frustration of family life in her comedy. She might have come up on your social media feeds. Also what she learned about from becoming a mother at 18

and why she can't help but judge families who wear matching pajamas. She is very funny. Looking forward to having Emma on tomorrow and looking forward to seeing you then. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. Ever wish someone had sat you down when you started your job

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