Woman's Hour - Jung Chang; Living longer: bodies and muscles; Maternity allowance

Episode Date: October 17, 2019

Jung Chang is the best-selling author of 'Wild Swans'. She talks about her new book 'Big Sister, Little Sister, Red Sister' and how the three Soong sisters helped shape 20th century China. Maternity Action, a charity that campaigns for the rights of women and babies, says it’s receiving an increasing number of calls to its helpline about Maternity Allowance. New mothers are telling them that they’ve started their maternity leave and given birth, but still haven't received the £148 a week benefit. We hear from their Chief Executive Rosalind Bragg. Just two per cent of women do the recommended 150 minutes of exercise each week. This is a problem because older women that exercise have better immune function and are less likely to suffer falls which are a major cause of poor health and injury for older people. In the second part of our series on health in old age we talk to Professor Janet Lord, an expert in muscle health and immunity from the University of Birmingham and Ann Kirby, an 82 year old writer who is passionate about keeping fit. A new exhibition ‘Empowering Women, Empower Women’ at the Millennium Gallery, Museums Sheffield tells the story of women across the North of England who have fought for change over the last 100 years – from Women Against Pit Closures to the Leeds Clothing strike. Its curator Dr Sarah Marsden is joined by former activists Kate Flannery and Nancy Hall to discuss the tradition of women's protest.Presenter: Jenni Murray Producer: Ruth Watts

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Hello, Jenny Murray welcoming you to the Woman's Hour podcast. In today's programme, the charity Maternity Action's concerned about new mothers who claim they're not receiving their maternity allowance. What's the impact of a new baby and benefit that comes in late? A new exhibition opens in Sheffield, Empowering Women, Empower Women, looks back at a hundred years of women across the north of England who fought for change. And the second in our series on good health in old age. How much exercise should you be doing to keep really fit? Now in 1991, Yung Chang published a book called Wild Swans. It told the story of the lives of three generations of Chinese women, her grandmother, her mother and herself,

and became a worldwide bestseller. Then came Mao, the Untold Story, followed by Emperor Zhao Zixi, the concubine who launched modern China. And now there's a new history of China, told through the stories of three sisters. It's called Big Sister, Little Sister, Red Sister. Three women at the heart of 20th century China.

Yongchang, what drew you to the stories of these three extraordinary women? Well, because they were so extraordinary, one of them married the father of China, of Republican China, Sun Yat-sen. But she became a political figure in her own right. In fact, she was the only woman to appear in public as a major political figure back in 1922. And she became Mao, Chairman Mao's vice chair in communist China, because she embraced the communism. And another sister, little sister, Mei Ling, was Madam Chang Kai-shek, and was the first lady of China for 22 years. She was one of the most famous women in the world during the Second World War, when China resisted Japan. And the third sister, big sister, Ailin, made herself one of the richest women in China.

What sort of childhood did they have? Well, they had a quite extraordinary childhood. Their mother came from the oldest Catholic family in China. Their ancestor was converted by the Jesuits in the Ming Dynasty many centuries back. And then their father went to America as an unskilled laborer, but he escaped and ended up in the South of America and became the first Chinese person to be converted by the Southern Methodists. And he was educated there for seven years, and he was sent back to

China as a preacher. But he then became a businessman, made lots of money, and he wanted to give all his children, including his three daughters, an American education. The beginning of the book tends to concentrate on some of the men in their lives who you've mentioned. How important was their father in their development? Oh, the father was very important because he wanted to send his children to America for education. And that sort of laid the ground for them to become these very extraordinary women. And eldest big sister, Eileen, went to America in 1904 when she was 14, and she was the very first Chinese woman to be educated outside China. And the other two sisters followed her to America.

Mei Ling, later Madame Chiang Kai-shek, went to America when she was eight, and she spent 10 years in America and returned to China speaking better English than Chinese. And what's more extraordinary to me was that these girls were in America alone, without adult family members to look after them. And such was their father's faith in American society and in the Methodist community. How did each of them attract men who would become as significant as they did in the development of modern China? Well, these girls came back to China wanting to change China and wanting to make China more like America. And then Red Sister Qing Ling fell in love with Sun Yat-sen,

this man who's called the father of China because he was the first person to advocate republicanism, which led to the ending of monarchy, a 2,000-year-old monarchy in China. And she wanted to sacrifice herself for her husband. And, of course, she was let down, which I hope to talk about later. And Sun Yat-sen was important also because he was the person who brought in Soviet communism to China,

which still is there in China today. And then his successor, Chiang Kai-shek, after Sun Yat-sen's death in 1925, Chiang Kai-shek changed their party, the Nationalist Party, into an anti-communist party. Little Sister and Big Sister were both passionately anti-communism. And so Little Sister married Chiang Kai-shek. And when Chiang Kai-shek became the ruler of China before Mao,

and Little Sister became the first lady of China. What impact did that have on their relationships with each other? I mean, that's straddling, very complicated politics and clearly disagreeing with each other violently. Yes, well, I mean, you know, it's quite incredible because, you know, Red Sister Ching Ling was a communist and was Mao's vice chairman. She devoted her life, basically destroying the lives of her sisters and the whole family. And Chiang Kai-shek wanted to have Red Sister assassinated. And in fact, he cooked up many plots and even rehearsed one, and how they balanced this.

And of course, their relationships went through ups and downs, but how they balanced their affection for each other and their loathe of each other's ideologies and relationships was a fascinating subject for me. It's interesting that these men that they were drawn to, that they married, that they were very closely involved in, they're very harsh, powerful, really not very nice men. What attracted them to these, you know, Sun Yat-sen, Zhang Jarek, Kai Chek, and Mao? Well, yes. Well, the thing is, when Red Sister Qingling

married Sun Yat-sen, it came at a cost, because she was passionately in love. She was just over 20, and he was more than twice her age. And her parents were furiously against her marriage, and they locked her up in her room. But she climbed out of the window and left Shanghai, boarded a ship to go to Japan in order to marry Sun Yat-sen. And she wanted to die for him, make a sacrifice for him. And in 1922, the couple were surrounded by their enemies. And Qing Ling volunteered to stay behind to cover Sun Yat-sen's escape. So he fled. But what she didn't realize was after he arrived to safety, he still didn't want his wife to flee because he wanted her as a bait to draw enemy attack so he could launch a counterattack and beat his enemy for his political ambitions. And she was devastated when she realized this, because she nearly died, her bodyguards died during her flight, and she had a miscarriage and was never able to have children. That was devastating for her because she longed for children. And little sister Mei Ling married Chiang Kai-shek. Chiang Kai-shek had started his career by being an assassin. He

assassinated the major political rival of Sun Yat-sen, and that caught Sun Yat-sen's eye, and he became Sun's successor. But he himself was besieged, pursued by assassins, and two lords got into their bedroom near the Marito bed, and Mei Ling herself suffered a miscarriage as a result, and was left childless. So they really paid the price for the men they chose and the lives they chose. And was always terrified after that of being in her bedroom in case she was attacked again. Yes, I mean, she actually sank into a depression, Madame Chiang Kai-shek, for seven years. And it's a quite interesting story because he wanted to pull her out of depression. And he gave her a necklace in 1932 for her birthday. It was no ordinary necklace because it encircled a whole mountain and there was a picture, extraordinary picture in my book

which I mean astonished me and the jewel of the necklace was a villa, and the roof was green, blue tiles, and it would sparkle in the sun, looking like a real jewel. And the chain was made of French pine trees, which he had imported from France, and which color differently from local trees in autumn. So if you have a private plane, which he had, he would fly his wife to admire her necklace, which stood out in the whole mountain. The book is dedicated to your mother. Why did you dedicate it to her? Well, my mother is 88 now now and she still lives in china

she's frail she's often in hospital several times was dangerously ill and but she remains the source of strength for me um because i mean she inspired me to write Wild Swans. And in my following books, I became a writer, but I'm also a non-person in China. All my books are banned, and I'm banned from going to China except for two weeks through the help of British Foreign Office to see her. And of course, I live abroad. My mother lives in China and bears the brunt of the problems.

But she never asked me to mince my word, to pull punches. And she always encouraged me to tell the truth, as I have found out. And so I hugely admire my mother. Now, this year has seen 70 years of communist rule, 30 years since Tiananmen Square. China has superpower status but there are lots of things going on in Hong Kong with the demonstrations that are going on there. What do you see when you look to the country of your birth now? Well, of course, I have very mixed feelings because on the one hand, I see in the last few years, China has become more repressive and things have become much worse. So I'm very anxious. And there are also people, leaders, who wanted to wind the clock back and go back to the more Maoist days. So I'm extremely anxious. But on the other hand, I can also see that they are encountering tremendous resistance. Those people who want to turn the clock back

have been encountering tremendous resistance from, you know, everywhere in China. And because the country has opened its doors wide enough and for long enough, and many people have traveled abroad, the economy has been linked to the world, and it's impossible for them to have that dream of going back to the Maoist dictatorship. So that gives me faith and a degree

of optimism for the future of China. Yung Chang, thank you very much for being with us this morning. And there is a book tour going on, I think. And you will be at the South Bank Centre in London on Saturday afternoon. Thank you so much for being with us this morning. Thank you very much. Now, if you have a job and then you get pregnant and have a baby, there are two ways of supporting yourself through maternity leave. If your employer is prepared to chip in,

you can get statutory maternity pay of 90% of your salary for up to 39 weeks. If you're self-employed, freelance or low paid, there's maternity allowance, £148 for 39 weeks. But the charity Maternity Action is concerned that they're getting a lot of calls from new mothers whose benefit hasn't come through. Rosalind Bragg is their chief executive. Rosalind, what are you hearing from new mothers? About a month ago, we had a spike of calls on our advice line from women who were facing quite long delays in getting their maternity allowance coming through. So 12 weeks, for example, women who've put their application in at the time they're supposed to and they've had their baby before the payments have commenced. And it's £148 a week, which is quite important

in the budgets of new families. How many women do you reckon are affected by it? We don't have national figures. We know that there's 60,000 women each year who get maternity allowance and it certainly seems to us to be a problem which is very widespread. So any woman who's in employment who's getting maternity allowance is likely to be encountering these delays at the moment. Why do you think there is a delay? We contacted the DWP asking if they could tell us what was going on

and asking what we should advise women to do. And it took them a little while to get back to us. We had to write to the minister before we heard back. And they've said it's to do with staffing. But it is quite worrying because this will have been going on for several months in order to get to the point where it's a 12-week delay before payments are made. Now, we had a contact from someone on Instagram who didn't want us to use a name but she said the DWP told me there was a six-week delay then eight then ten I'm expecting

to receive the money next week and backdated so I really hope this comes through as I'm desperate for it now I hope this gets resolved as soon as possible so that new mothers can enjoy maternity leave without this worry of money what sort of problems would you say women are suffering without their benefit? Well, the family budgets are under enormous stress when women stop bringing home their pay. They're dependent on maternity pay, which in the case of maternity allowance is roughly half the equivalent of the national minimum wage for a 35-hour week. It's quite a small amount of money.

So in order to try and pay for everything that needs to be paid for with a new baby, often families are going into debt already. They're buying buggies and bedding, and then they have the ongoing costs of nappies and so on. So the financial stress is already there, and having significant delays in getting the payment can really push families into quite difficult circumstances. What are you suggesting to people when they phone you up that they can do about it? There's really not a lot. The DWP's

given a number for an emergency assistance but it seems to us pretty much everyone we're talking to is in a position where they really need that money now. We do have a meeting with DWP later today and hopefully they'll be giving us some idea of how they're going to solve the problem. But at the moment, it's quite a difficult circumstance for these women. Well, of course, we spoke to the DWP as well and they said, we understand how important this financial support is for new parents and are sorry for the delays some are currently experiencing. We're putting more staff in place to speed up the process

in a fast-tracking emergency cases. You can apply 14 weeks before the week in which your baby is born, so we urge people to apply as soon as they are eligible. And, of course, if you think you're in need of emergency support, you can contact the Maternity Allowance Team. The number is on our website and apparently claims will be backdated to the date that people are eligible from.

So good luck with your meeting this afternoon. Rosalind Bragg, thank you very much indeed for being with us. Now still to come in today's programme, an exhibition opens in Sheffield called Empowering Women, Empower Women. We hear from some of the northern women featured in a century of activism and resistance and the serial episode four of Edna O'Brien's The Country Girls.

Now yesterday, in the first of our series about staying fit and well into old age and maybe living longer, we discussed the importance of friends and a good social life. For day to day, for lots of us, it's the tough bit, doing your exercises. Only 5% of older men do the recommended 20 minutes of exercise a day. Among women, it's a paltry 2%. So what do we need to do to give our immune systems a boost and get strong enough to keep good balance and stop ourselves falling over? Well, Anne Kirby is a writer, 82 years old and fit as a fiddle.

Professor Janet Lord is the director of the Institute of Inflammation and Ageing at the University of Birmingham. Janet, what are we losing if we don't exercise? As if I needed to ask, sitting here stiffly and looking at Anne enviously. Well, basically you're potentially losing your opportunity to have a healthy old age. I think it's as simple as that. So we know that when you exercise, when your muscles are moving, that these are an organ in the body that really have wide effects.

So a moving muscle will ensure that you don't lay fat down as easily. And as you've just said, it actually helps your immune system. And we've just become to understand this that it's really moving muscle is a positive help to your immune system it helps it to function correctly if you have an infection it can help it to fight the infection better but more importantly when you haven't got an infection it controls this process called inflammation and we know that's one of the drivers of ill health in old age. Now, neither men nor women seem to be doing too much exercise in older age. But why do women do even less than men? Yes, it's quite staggering.

Now, this may be because what we know, unfortunately, for ladies, although we live longer, we don't live healthier. Ladies are often frailer at the end of their lives. And this is probably because we start with less muscle and less muscle strength than our male counterparts. And as we get older, we gradually we do less exercise. And so our muscles lose their mass, lose their strength. And so then we become easily fatigued. And I think then we're so you know ladies may be thinking well it's a little too much effort it's a

little too hard to do exercise but what they need to do is think well actually it's never too late to do something and I always say to ladies don't be put off by the targets of a hundred and fifty minutes of aerobic exercise or four routines of strength exercises just do something the worst thing you can do is do nothing and how much do you do well that's difficult for me to answer because most of my life is involved in exercise of some kind or another I tap dance once a week and i go to um a move it or lose it class which is kind to the mature exerciser what do you do in move it or lose it then what sort of class it's a class i know but what sort of things well some people are unable to do these exercises standing so there's an opportunity for

them to do it seated if they feel more comfortable but it is generally keep fit posture sitting up straight and even if you're sitting down you can still do exercises for your hands and and your legs and your feet moving your head from side to side there's so much you can do so i garden um although i although the children inclined to tell me off because I climbed the apple tree. That was a bad experience. You climbed the apple tree? Well, on a ladder.

And that was a bad experience, but I won't tell you about that. No, no, no, tell us. What happened when you climbed the ladder to the apple tree? Well, I was picking apples, as you do, and I thought, I'll get down and move the ladder round, and I thought, you know, I can't be bothered. So I just reached out like that, and that was fine. And then I reached out like that, and I thought, whoops-a-daisy.

And that was... So that was a bad thing to do, but it was my fault. It was my fault. You pulled a muscle. Yeah, digging turf out of the garden. I live in an area where there's heavy clay. That was a bit of a challenge as well. I know I do things I really shouldn't do, but a challenge is a challenge.

Even washing up is keeping fit. Janet, my next question was going to be, how risky are dancing and exercise videos when you're 82, when balance might not be great and bones may break easily? Or you decide to reach out for an apple, which you shouldn't? I think the message is to never overstretch yourself, but to just do something, as I've said.

A lot of people may not even think that standing up helps, but Anne's just mentioned that, you know, if you're watching daytime television, I always say, you know, stand up for an episode, because by doing that, you know, stand up for an episode because by doing that, you're putting pressure on your bones, your muscles are tightened. And so we know that keeping your bones healthy and your muscles healthy, part of it is loading them. So as you said, if you're sitting all day, you're not loading your bones and then they will become more brittle. But the message is, you know know don't overstretch

yourself but if you were to go along to a class like move it or lose it you can start with seated exercises just do something simple like can you get up out of the chair say 10 times and just start like that and bit by bit you'll build the muscles up build the bones up and then you'll be able to do more what does the science say is actually going on when we exercise? Yes, so what the science tells us is, so if we take, for example, bone, so there are cells in our bone called, there's osteocytes and there's osteoblasts and osteoclasts.

The osteocytes are the ones that sense you're standing up or you're loading bone, you're doing some exercises and they then promote these osteoblasts to make more bone. So that's what the science tells us. As far as muscle goes, it tells us that if your muscle moves, as I've said, it helps to keep fat down. It reduces this thing called inflammation and we know that it's inflammation that causes you to lose muscle lose bone but we also know it's the driver for heart disease for dementia and even it's even got a role in cancer how do we know it has an impact on dementia ah right so there are lots of studies where they've looked at big population studies with tens of thousands of people on, measured their inflammation

and the more inflammation you have as you get older the increased risk of having dementia and it seems to be that this is then affecting the brain. There have also been other studies where they've done an intervention, they've got people to do more exercise or they've had a control group that didn't do much exercise. That has then lowered the inflammation and it's lowered the incidence of dementia in that grouping. So Anne, how does all your activity make you feel? Well, I know how I feel if I don't do something that I'm expecting to do I'm disappointed in myself which is probably quite silly but I do feel the need to exercise

it's a sort of a booster for me it's a morale booster and even if I'm not doing a class if I'm out mowing the lawn or if I'm if I'm vacuuming the the lounge it's all exercise so as long as I'm moving doing something cleaning the windows walking round to the shop walking around the supermarket which isn't ideal but you're still walking you're still picking up those heavy bottles and putting them in the trolley, and then you're taking them out, and then you're putting them back.

It's all exercise. So, Janet, if you've neglected exercise, she said worriedly, and are stiff, or maybe in pain, or maybe a little bit wobbly, because you might fall over, how easy is it to start? It is very easy, and I say take it very steadily. probably, because you might fall over, how easy is it to start? It is very easy. And as I said, take it very steadily. So as we get older, and Anne's mentioned some of these points, we realise it's more important probably to do these strength exercises. So it might be simple, as I suggested, a nice simple one is to see, can you get out of a chair two or three times? You don't have to move any more than that. Is that getting out of a chair two or three times you don't have to move any any more

than that is that getting out of a chair without putting your hands on the arms ideally yes so if you can cross your arms see if you can get out of a chair without standing that helps your thigh muscles crossed yes well done once yes that's enough for now i'll do some more later but then just build up by doing that you'll build up your thigh muscles and that will then give you the confidence to be able to do more exercises. What other exercises happen in a chair, Anne, in your classes? Well, there's a resistance band, a series of exercises that you can do in a chair with a resistance band.

They come in different strengths. So you start off with the really stretchy one, which doesn't need much resistance. You can wrap it round your legs, right round, together, and then you can see if you can open your legs while that is secure. You can use it with your hands, just doing that very slowly. Just pulling the unhandles apart. Yes, yes.

You can put it above your head and just from side to side, again, very gently. And you have the choice of how much resistance to use. But it's easy to get overenthusiastic and use one that perhaps is a bit too much because I've done it. What happened when you overdid it? Chest and muscle strain. You've got pains in your chest? No, chest and muscle pain. It's the muscles and the ligaments that I damage, but that's just me.

So this is not about the old Jane Fonda idea that you have to feel the pain? No, absolutely not. No, no, no. Absolutely not. Definitely not. What about lifting weights? Do you ever do that? You mean like as at a gym? Those little hand weights. I'm not thinking, you know, like an Olympic weight.

I have got hand weights which you just hold like that. But I think, for me, the resistance bands do work better because if you're using those weights it's really if you're worried about what they call back wing arms which I don't care about. Do you always wear long sleeves? Yes, definitely. No, I don't, I don't but you know you have to say

well, you know, I'm not a young person anymore and some things are going to go. But I don't worry about that. As far as your immune system goes with all this exercise, how often do you get colds and other little illnesses? Or are you clear of that? Well, I'm not often ill. I'm not often ill. I don't generally get colds. But at the beginning of the year, I did have flu very badly. And I think it's left me with sort of a bit of a runny nose thing. But no, I'm fine. How far, Janet, might the kind of exercises that we've been talking about improve your life expectancy? Yes, so again, lots of these big studies where they've looked at how much physical activity people are doing. And it turns out to be one of the big factors in living longer as well.

So the turn out, shall I tell you the top four? So the top four, if you want a good, long, healthy life, are to be physically active, to not smoke, to have your five fruit and veg a day, and to have moderate alcohol intake. So those turn out to be, in some of the studies, the top four. How keen are you, Anne, to make it to 100? It would be rather nice but

I'm more keen on getting through this week and being as well next week as I am this week. Well Anne Kirby and Professor Janet Lord thank you both very much indeed and of course we'd like to hear from you on this question as well.

How much exercise do you do and what does it do for you? You can send us an email or of course you can always send us a tweet or you can contact us on Instagram. Lots of ways to get in touch. Thank you both very much indeed. Now there's a new exhibition

at the Millennium Gallery in the museum in Sheffield called Empowering Women, Empower Women. And it tells the story of women across the north of England who fought for change in the last 100 years, from Women Against Pick Closures to the Leeds Clothing Strike in 1970. Kate Flannery, who joins us from Sheffield, and Nancy Hall, who's in Leeds, are both featured in the exhibition. Dr Sarah Marsden created the project known as Remembering Resistance and joins us from Lancaster University. Sarah, why did you decide to focus on women in the North? I think it's because regional perspectives can be lost.

So particularly when you're thinking about national or international movements, that can overlook the experiences of women in the north and in the regions. And I think also because there can be an emphasis on protest in the capital, so the media might focus their attention there. And that means that there's a real risk that those day-to-day protests, that activism that women are involved in in the north can be lost unless we really capture it from the bottom up. So that's why we've been holding events and working with an amazing team of volunteers who've been going all over the North, recording oral histories of women activists and collecting information that's gone into the exhibition. Now you asked for women to come forward last year, including on Women's Hour. What sort of response did you get? We got an amazing response

and we were really grateful to Woman's Hour and your listeners for coming forward. It was tempered though sometimes by an occasional reluctance to really fully tell people's stories. So sometimes when we've been doing events women will come forward and say well I didn't do much really

and then they go on to tell you a magnificent story of decades of activism. So I think it's important to continue to create spaces and to encourage women to come forward and really put their experience on the record so that we can record and capture it. Nancy, I know you're now in your late 70s. What inspired your activism? Well, I think I was a working class girl that went to a very middle class grammar school. And I came from a family with very little education.

And I think when you're an outsider or you feel an outsider in your environment, which is my environment at school, I think it develops sometimes a very strong sense of social justice, which has never really left me. And I think that was the start of it all. What kind of things did you get involved in? Well, I was first involved in CND, which was a very radical protest at the time. And then there was the shootings in Sharpeville in South Africa, which gave me more of an international perspective on what was happening to people. And what did you do as a result of the shooting?

Well, I went on my first demo in Trafalgar Square. I was actually on a school theatre visit and I sort of diverted into Trafalgar Square and got into quite a lot of trouble over that because I was late for the performance at the theatre. But I never regretted it. And I think that was the beginning of a lifetime of resistance, really, to the status quo and an interest in supporting

any kind of social movement that led to justice and equality. Keza, I know you come from a political family in Sheffield. What were you keen to get involved in yourself? Well, I'd been lucky enough to have a mum who was a feminist and was involved in the feminist movement in Sheffield and in the region and also nationally so I was very keen to sort of plough my own furrow because in some ways I was a bit overshadowed by being involved in a political family I was quite a shy person and I think my initial political activity was mainstream getting involved in a political family. I was quite a shy person. And I think my initial political activity was mainstream, getting involved in the anti-apartheid movement and campaign for nuclear disarmament. So really, my real political activity started

to begin when I joined a trade union and I became active in Women Against Pit Closures during the miners' strike. What was it like to be involved in the Women Against Pit Closures? I mean, this was the early 80s. Well, it was quite difficult initially. I was in my early 20s and, of course, there were a lot of women who were quite experienced politically and also being quite active in the community.

But I think because I wasn't a miners's wife I was brought up in a family that worked in coal and steel but I wasn't a miner's wife and I met a lot of women who liked confidence and also and a lot of us were in the same boat really and it was quite uplifting to see the passion and the motivation of a lot of female individuals who wanted to get involved and really sort of fight for jobs and communities. What sort of work did you do? Because, you know, I remember that era and I remember women in the north of England saying that they themselves had become politicised

and got more involved in activity through Women Against Pit Closures, how much were you able to help them with your political background? I don't, I think, you know, in some ways I was quite privileged in that I was brought up in a political household, but in other ways I found that quite intimidating and I never took on leading roles. So it was quite interesting for me, for people to be looking to me for some kind of moral guidance and political guidance and support.

So I felt as though I needed to rise to that kind of challenge. But initially we got involved in things around fundraising and gathering food and clothes. And I used to have to report back to my trade union branch, so that was always a bit nerve-wracking because i felt intimidated speaking in front of large groups of people but um i think because people you know developed quite close relationships we all kind of learned from each other really and supported each other nancy and i know you helped collect the interviews for the exhibition, but initially hadn't made half the contribution that they had.

And then I was sitting talking to one of the women I wanted to interview, and she gave all these reasons why she shouldn't be interviewed, which I knocked down very, very easily. And then she said to me, are you being interviewed then? And I said, well, no, I'm not. And she said, well, why not? And I said, well, really, the same reasons that you've just given me, which sounded absolutely daft since I'd spent the last 10 minutes demolishing those arguments. And then other women were very surprised that I knew and had worked with on different issues that I wasn't being interviewed. So I thought, well, I better get on with it and accept being interviewed, so I did. Sarah, what campaigns of today would you say compare

with those of the past that you have managed to gather for the exhibition? I think one of the things that's really interesting is actually the amount of continuity that we've seen. So if you think about the current Women Against State Pension Injustice, that echoes a campaign started in the 1930s by the magnificent Florence White and her National Spinsters Pension Association, who were also campaigning to reduce the pension age for unmarried women, because they suffered poorer health, they often didn't get to pension age. And so you can see

that campaign echo across the decades. The Women Against Pit Closures movement, the sorts of activities that they did around soup kitchens, fundraising, support, selling things, developing international connections to support their campaign echoes what women in Durham were doing during the 1926 general strike. So you can see echoes in the types of approaches they took and also in the actual campaigns. Kate and Nancy, last question to each of you. Kate first. What do you think you've achieved? I think we've achieved a kind of confidence that perhaps we wouldn't have had if we'd not been active in certain political activities.

And I think there's a kind of a camaraderie and standing on the shoulders of giants, you know, we all learn from each other. And I think has just been illustrated. Lots of movements nowadays learn from movements in the past. And it gives us a kind of confidence to know what kind of things we can achieve if we all stick together and support each other. Nancy, what about you? What do you think you've achieved? Well, I think we've achieved some improvement in women's lot but I think with everything that we gain socially,

what can be given can also be taken away very, very quickly. We've seen that already with abortion rights in certain areas of the States. So I think we've got to be constantly vigilant about what gains we have made and what more is to be done. I mean I never thought I'd see the time when I walked into supermarkets and found there were collection points for sanity towels

so that girls can go to school and this is in one of the richest countries in the world and I think the number of rough sleepers, women sleeping rough that we see in Leeds now the fact that women have been cut, cut, cut again, services for women that still two women a week are killed by their violent partners rape prosecutions are

not going forward, there's just so much to do, I don't think we can ever ever stop, but we must always salute and remember those women that have made gains and are continuing to fight and struggle for women's rights and for women's equality. I was talking to Nancy Hall, Dr. Sarah Marsden and Kate Flannery. Sally sent us a text about Yung Chang. Adored Wild Swan, she said, and i can't wait to devour her new book yung chang what a woman on maternity allowance amy said i'm 21 weeks and will be getting my accountant to do

the paperwork in november i believe you can get it from 29 weeks so i was planning on getting it sorted if it takes a while to come through. There is of course the accountancy fee but I feel like they'll navigate me through as the government doesn't seem to care. And then lots of you got in touch about health in old age and the importance of exercise. Julia said I'm 75 and I feel 35. I exercise my dog twice a day and the walk includes hills. I go disco dancing and latin twice a week. I moved house at 70 to Cornwall after losing my husband and managed all the DIY on my own. Barbara said

I suspect the 2% older women taking exercise didn't include housework. I've already moved a lot more than my generally active husband and it's only half past 10. Poppy said it's not original but yet a dog. It's a win-win in every respect. You're out walking every day, there's always some sort of interaction with other people when you're out and there's the perpetual non-judgmental adoration. Hell said when woman's hour comes on I get up and march briskly around the house listening to it and that's my daily exercise. Catherine said I take part in and teach Zumba gold for people of a certain age. Lots of fun, different styles of dancing from salsa to swing, all simplifies to suit everyone. Most importantly, it's enjoyable and it's great for meeting people.

And then Marianne said, I'm 59 and joined a gym two years ago after being anti-exercise all my life. Surprised to find I loved it. I go three times a week and think it's been very beneficial to my recovery from a hysterectomy this year. Now tomorrow in the final part of our series on living a long life and having a healthy old age we'll be talking about how our diets affect our life expectancy. In the studio will be Professor Linda Partridge and Professor Katie Corr. And we speak to Carol Campaign, the Director of the Diversity Practice, about her new study looking at the experience of BAME women leaders in the workplace. Join Jane tomorrow morning, two minutes past ten if you can, from me for today. Bye bye.

Hello. I just wanted to tell you about my new podcast. It's called Classical Fix and it's basically me, Clemmie Burton-Hill, each week talking to a massive music fan. I mix them a classical playlist. They have a listen, they come in and we just see where the conversation

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