Woman's Hour - Justice Secretary Alex Chalk on sentencing reforms

Episode Date: November 15, 2023

After a reshuffle that saw Suella Braverman leave her post as Home Secretary, and left the government with no women in the “big four” offices of state, Justice Secretary Alex Chalk spoke to Emma Barnett. They discussed the impact of the reshuffle, as well as sentencing reforms which will affect women, and the alleged rapist currently serving as a Conservative MP.Endometriosis is a chronic condition which affects one in 10 women, for whom tissue similar to the lining of the womb starts to grow in other places, causing debilitating pain and in some cases fertility complications. But a charity that looks to support women suffering from the condition - Endometriosis South Coast - has faced criticism this week after announcing that a trans woman, Steph Richards, would be their new CEO. The decision to appoint Steph was made by Jodie Hughes, Chair of the Trustees, who also founded the charity. They spoke to Emma about the appointment.Lisa Lintott always enjoyed writing, but being a single mum meant that this had to take a back seat. But when her son Jazz, an aspiring actor, found that he was only being sent typecast roles, Lisa enrolled herself into a creative writing masters and wrote her own play, casting her son in the lead role. Going for Gold, which tells the life story of British boxer Frankie Lucas, has since won multiple awards, including Best Production Play, Best Producer and Best Actor at this year’s Black British Theatre Awards, catapulting them both into the spotlight. Jazz and Lisa told Emma about this unexpected partnership.Minnie the Minx is turning 70. In December the much loved Beano cartoon character will celebrate 70 years since her first appearance. The writers and illustrators of the Beano, based in Dundee, Scotland, created Minnie to “be just as tough as the boys” and “kick back against pre-war societal norms.” Well, that was in 1953. Today, a special edition of The Beano is coming out, guest-edited by England's football captain, Leah Williamson. Laura Howell has been drawing Minnie since 2018 and explained why Minnie’s popularity has endured.

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Emma Barnett and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Today, as promised, we are joined by a member of the newly reshuffled cabinet, not a new person in post actually, the Justice Secretary, Alex Chalk, who was there before the reshuffle that gave rise to many a few raised eyebrows across the country as David Cameron returned to the fold and the former most senior woman in that cabinet, Suella Braverman, who's written her own letter now having been fired,

which is going to go down apparently as one of the most damning letters in recent political history. He's going to be here addressing some of the points you have raised over politics and who is in charge over the last few days. We will also be hearing from the chair and the new chief executive of a small endometriosis charity in the south of England, which has garnered rather a lot of attention because of the decision to appoint a trans woman as its CEO. Your thoughts, please.

Should a charity for women suffering from endometriosis be led by someone who has or could suffer from the disease? What's your take on this? You'll hear from them shortly. 84844 is the number you need to text. You get in touch on social media or at BBC Women's Hour or email me through the Women's Hour website

or go for a WhatsApp message on 03700 100 444. And Minnie the Minx, the much-loved Beano cartoon character, will celebrate 70 years since her first appearance. I'll be talking to her illustrator a little later on, the first woman to hold that post. But first, do you trust this government more or less,

or the same, after this week's surprising reshuffle in which a former Prime Minister was returned to the Cabinet, one David Cameron, now Lord Cameron, the formerly most senior woman in the cabinet, Suella Braverman, wrote, and it was published last night, a furious letter to Rishi Sunak after being fired. A letter, as I say, political commentators will say will go down in history for its damnation. We talked yesterday about the fact that there are also no women now in the top four jobs, something that hasn't been the case for the last 14 years, and whether that mattered or not.

It didn't matter a job to some of you, it mattered a great deal to others, and others have other issues that you have been raising with us. I did say I'd be joined by a Secretary of State this morning to talk about trust, the vision from this government, and its relationship with you. Alex Chalk is the Lord Chancellor and Justice Secretary. He's been in the news recently with his plans for sentencing reform and what that will mean for victims. And

most of the cases when we're talking about these sorts of cases, we are talking about women. I spoke to him just before coming on air and began by asking what he thought of Suella Braverman's letter to Rishi Sunak. Well, look, it's not my, the insight I share. I mean, I work alongside the Prime Minister and I have to say, I have never sat and worked with somebody who is more determined, who's more focused, more hardworking, disciplined. He has been quite extraordinary, and particularly in respect of the attempts to stop the boats, sitting down there and looking with forensic detail at the issues we have to address and working hard to do so. So my experience of him is all those things,

and I can really only speak to that. I accept you can only speak to that, but do you agree that his plan isn't working? Because we look at the numbers on the one example you've given, we can look at other things. Record election defeat, she talks of. The five by-elections this year where the seat was Conservative, your party's only held on to one. Respectfully, I don't agree with that. So

if you look at the point about the boats, we're in a situation in this country where, in fact, the number of crossings is down by a fifth to a third. And that is compared to across the continent of Europe, where they are up and up very significantly. You only have to look at the experience of Italy. That's point one. And then in respect of inflation, which, of course, is the greatest destroyer of all. It's the thing which devastates the incomes, the livelihoods, the standard of living of your listeners. That is down by half. And incidentally, that would not have simply come down by half automatically. There have been really difficult, disciplined decisions spearheaded by the Prime Minister.

And I think he deserves some proper credit for that. Why are women, therefore, not supporting you more than they are the Labour Party? Why is that not coming across to them? If you look at the support, one of the most recent polls about YouGov, Labour has a 28-point lead over the Conservatives with women. And a survey found of 60% of women voters, to your point about finances, who describe themselves as very worried about their finances, say they would now vote Labour six times more than would vote Conservative. Well, we have to work incredibly hard to earn the support of everyone, whether

they are men or whether they are women. And indeed, that's one of the reasons why my job has been first as a backbencher, representing the people of Cheltenham, arguing, for example, to increase maximum sentences for stalking, to, in my ministerial, taking through the domestic abuse bill, creating offences like coercive and controlling behaviour, driving up convictions for rape and so on. May we get to your brief in a moment? But you brought up the issue of money. And I'm telling you that looking at the data at the moment, certainly to do with women, as I'm talking to you on Women's Hour, which I know you'll appreciate, you haven't got that trust, it would seem. And I wonder why that message isn't coming across. And those by-election defeats,

they are important to take note of. Well, of course they are. Absolutely. And I mean, the prime minister has been very alive to that. And we have got to ensure that the economy turns around, which is why the prime minister said at the beginning of this year that he had his five commitments, which was to halve inflation, grow the economy, cut debt and waiting lists and so on, and then stopping the boat. So these are all priorities of the British people and the priorities of British men and priorities of British women. And I think he set the right priorities. But look, this is incredibly difficult stuff. And I think we are seeing really promising progress. We're actually seeing wages outstripping inflation for the first time in a while. And of course, you know, one swallow doesn't make a summer at all that. But we are starting to see more positive economic metrics

and that really matters. The levels of in-work poverty and people not thinking even that is working is being communicated to you in several different ways. Is bringing back a prime minister that called a referendum he couldn't win the really the best that you've got? Well, as I say, the important point, which is not to be discounted, it seems to me, is that when people are now earning at a rate that is higher than inflation, that means, of course, that real incomes are going up. And that is a very significant shift. It means that people's household finances are starting to be repaired. I appreciate there's a long way to go because, of course, we had the war in Ukraine, which absolutely devastated, you know, the whole all of Western economies and meant that national income took a hit. But all I'm saying is that it

is starting to heal and it hasn't healed by accident. It's healed by design and very, very considerable amount of hard work. Now, to your point about others coming in, I've worked with David Cameron. He is somebody who believes passionately in public service. He's a man of integrity, decency and talent. And we want to have that unity. We have that unity. I was in cabinet yesterday and there was an extraordinary sense of purpose, of discipline and determination to deliver for the British people. And he wants to be part of that. It's a gamble because that is not how everybody views him. And they have a very particular view of him, depending on their of that referendum but also of him as an individual that's all i'm saying we're talking about how you earn the trust yeah i'm understanding the calculations if you like of what's gone on the reason i also

wanted to come on to something if i may and you've brought up the cabinet is is whether you think this cabinet has a woman problem for the first time in 14 years no woman in the top four offices of state well take your first point i think the british people want uh delivery they care about to your earlier point what is in their household finances how secure do they feel in their streets which is why you know crime is down considerably compared to 2010 it's why when you look at my portfolio as i say more people are being prosecuted for rape the conviction rate is higher and so on so they want to see results on all those on all those things to your point about women look this is the party that has delivered three women prime ministers and i just paused to know one for 49 days well no that's true but the but the opposition has only

ever been led by white men but you're talking about results one was there for 49 days in fact sorry this is a really important point That particular woman has had a particular impact on the household finances of women and men up and down this country, if they happen to be in a situation with their mortgage at that point. That is a really important point when you're talking about record women and reality and finances. Of course, of course. But respectfully, you asked me about the number of women. So we were first of all talking about finances i answered that and then you said about the number of women so i simply um i know but the party playbook is to boast about how many women you've had at the top of the party and without taking into consideration what one of those women in the view of some people

in this country did to their finances the two are inextricably linked and i can't let you gloss over it no no i i and i've and i've I've accepted that point. I'm just saying that in terms of the number of women in the top jobs, which was the original point, I think it's reasonable to note that that has been the case. But the second point I was going to go on to say is that if you look at those people who've been promoted, Victoria Atkins, you think of Laura Trott. In my own department, Laura Farris, one of the great thinkers in the Conservative Party, hugely able woman. And I just feel so proud of the talent that we have in the Conservative Party. And you know what, it is just not a thing. We don't do the kind of tick box, as it were. If people are talented, they will get promoted in the Conservative Party.

And that's exactly right, because it goes to my first point. It's got to be about delivery, delivery, delivery. That is ultimately the most important thing. Do you think you've all apologised for the most recent female Prime Minister's performance enough? We have been clear. I was in Cheltenham, and I introduced Rishi Sunak, because I thought he was the right person to be leader of the Conservative Party. And what I said then was in terms of the competing visions that were being proposed, Rishi Sunak was somebody who understood immediately that the best way to help the British people was to bring inflation down. What you can't do is borrow to fund tax cuts because ultimately that risks putting more money, inflating the economy and making things go in the wrong direction,

which is precisely why Rishi says that what the Labour Party want to do in terms of borrowing £28 billion takes us back to square one. Now, that was the competing vision as compared to the former prime minister. He has been resolute and disciplined about prosecuting that vision and we are starting to see the results. It's not quite what I asked you. No, no, because everybody in your party that I speak to on air would like to move on very quickly when I bring up Liz Truss and what happened there. And it was a slightly, well, no, you were telling me what was the competing vision,

which in your own party lost the vote, which is striking in itself. I just want to come on to something else, which is not about the highest offices of state and women. I could list in the last few years a series of male Tory MPs whose sexual conduct has been called into question. As the Justice Secretary, how do you feel at the moment that right now there is an alleged rapist MP working in the Conservative Party? And what is the latest with that case?

Well, I want to be absolutely clear, any allegation of rape is and must be taken incredibly seriously. And the point that I would make to your listeners, and if there's one thing I really wanted to land, is that compared to when I was prosecuting rapes as a barrister, the support that is available is so much better than it was in the past. So there is a victim's code, which anyone can Google now if they're listening, to tell you about the rights you can expect if that report is made. There is a 24-7 rape support helpline. There are independent sexual violence advisors to support. There is the right to be kept updated about the case, to make pre-court familiarisation

visits and so on. So, of course, I am appalled at any allegation of rape. It must be taken extremely seriously and support is there where it gets reported to the police. Well, the specific matters about what is happening within the Conservative Party is a matter for the chairman of the Conservative Party. My point is that where there is an allegation that is made, it should be dealt with very quickly. And we can start... We've had two weeks since we heard from the chairman, from Oliver Dowden, sorry, excuse me, the Deputy Prime Minister in this case,

and the former Conservative Party chairman, Jake Berry, is understood to have raised concerns about the Conservative Party paying for one of the alleged victims, of which there were meant to be several, to have treatment for injuries in a private hospital. What is the latest as Justice Secretary? I presume as someone with your background and you care deeply about this, you will have kept an eye on this and you will know because it was also striking that Caroline Noakes, fellow Conservative MP, Chair of the Women and Equalities Committee, said on this programme

that she even knows who the individual is. Do you know who the individual is? Well, Emma, the only reason there's a sort of element of hesitation is because it may be that the police are investigating this case at the moment. And if that's the case, it needs to be allowed to take its course. Nothing should be said... Of course, but can you give us an update? I'm just trying to...

That nothing should be said which could prejudice that because what happens you see is if someone is charged and they're there facing a trial what we don't want is defense counsel standing up and saying oh by the way the justice secretary said x y and z and cast aspersions on my guilt or innocence that's what we don't want to do so um this has to be allowed to take its course i think this the point that i can most sensibly sensibly and helpfully make is that if there are people out there who, heaven forbid, have been the victims of sexual crime, please do consider coming forward because support is there in a way that it was not 10 or 15 years ago. Hence, I think it was important to have you list what you just listed. And I really heard that. And I think our listeners will have done too. But may I just clarify, without asking you to comment on the individual, are you able, as Justice Secretaries say, that the police are looking into this matter at the moment and therefore there are limits to what I can properly say. As for the specific issues of what the Conservative

chairman is saying, that is a matter for the, or what has been reported to the Conservative chair, that is a matter for him. My job is to deal with what is happening in the justice system and that's why I have to be careful about what I say. And as I say, I don't want to labour the point but I think it's an important one, that if people are to be convicted, punished and disgraced for this crime, it is right that people, if they can, come forward. And we want to provide people with the strength, with the support and the comfort they need to make this allegation. I suppose a different point on this to get on to what you have said about rapists and sentencing, which is important to get to. But you're saying this as part of a party where this is potentially within your own party as an issue and isn't being dealt with and hasn't been dealt with, which brings to a question. Do you understand why some voters and specifically in this case,

some women voters don't feel that they can trust your party at the moment? Well, in that context we're talking about? I absolutely accept that any allegation, of course, is troubling. And that's why that's troubling in itself. But the thing that is as important is how these points get addressed if they are reported to the police. And the point I really want, I just really want to land is that the resource that has gone into ensuring that women who do make a report are not reporting into an empty room. There are 20,000 more police officers. Now, if, for example, a lot of the evidence is on their

phone, instead of people being deprived of their phone for weeks, which of course is so much a source of people's support, that will be returned overwhelmingly within 24 hours. That's why we are increasing the number of prosecutors, the number of independent sexual violence advisors up by 800 compared to when I was prosecuting these crimes. We've got more... Are you increasing the number of prison places? Because women's rights groups have welcomed your announcement around the idea that rapists and murderers involving the most sadistic sexual conduct will have to, I'm just reminding our listeners, will have to serve their full sentence. That was in the King's speech. But a concern remains that at the moment there will be a capacity issue,

because you tell me if this isn't accurate, but we've tried to make sure we are this morning. 98% of prison places are full in this country, according to recent data from your ministry. What are you doing to make sure there will be the space? So we have the largest programme of prison buildings since the Victorian era. So we are bringing on prison places at a rate of around 100 a week, which is the fastest rate in living memory. So that is the first point. We also have an additional 400 million pounds to bring on at what's known as rapid deployment cells and three prisons in the pipeline. Indeed, one is being built at the moment, HMP Millside on the old full Sutton site. So that is hugely important. And we're doing so because we believe ultimately in public protection.

And when it comes to these most appalling crimes, you talk about whole life orders, people who have murdered in the context of sexual or sadistic conduct, or indeed rapists, we think that the way you protect the public is taking these people out of circulation. Indeed, that's the approach that I took when I was a backbencher when I wanted to double the maximum sentence for stalkers, because I recognize that there are some cases where victims, predominantly women, can only begin to rebuild their lives if they know that that person is out of circulation, that he's not going to be at the end of the corner. He's not going to be near their home. He's not going to be on the school run. And you have to take these people out of circulation. At the same time, we also want to ensure that those people, including sometimes

female offenders, for whom the science shows that it's short sentences, by that I mean under 12 months, actually increases their chances of re-offending. We want to take people away from that revolving door of crime so that they don't end up in custody in the case of those female offenders, as I spoke to you. But more importantly than that, that the public are protected because they don't go on to commit further offences. Let me come back to that in just a moment. But is it right that you're going to be renting prison places abroad to alleviate overcrowding? So it's absolutely right that we should do everything possible to ensure that there is sufficient capacity for down the line. So we are simply looking at taking a power to rather than executing a policy to do what Norway has done,

to do what Belgium has done, and indeed Denmark, which is that they will transfer some prisoners, and we're talking, by the way, about a relatively small number to make use of overseas capacity. As I say, it's not unusual. And I do want to stress as well that this is about taking a power in the event that an agreement is reached in due course. There is nothing imminent about this, but it's sensible to pull on all levers to make sure that you have sufficient capacity. That's that's a sensible thing to do. You talked about more women coming out of the prison population because the amount of sentences, majority of them were for less than six months. You made the point as to why you decided to do that. Should pregnant women ever receive prison sentences, Justice Secretary? Well, ultimately, it's a matter for the courts because as you know,

and I certainly know from my experience, that when someone is convicted, the prosecution will stand up and of course, they will read out the facts of the case and indeed they will look at previous convictions and so on but then defence counsel will stand up and make a plea in mitigation where no doubt they will be referring to the fact of the pregnancy and indeed any other personal circumstances that pertain to the fact of the case and also a pre-sentence report on appropriate cases from the probation officer so it's just whether our prisons are fit to have that situation. We know of a particular case where a baby died after her vulnerable 18-year-old mother gave birth alone in a jail cell following systemic failings by state agencies.

That was a coroner ruling. We may have more places, but whether these prisons are being well run has been a huge cause for concern. That's why I ask. You know what it has and that case sent shockwaves through HMPPS it sent shockwaves through the department that I sit in it was very very upsetting and in this department we were extremely concerned by what happened to that young woman and it has prompted a really seismic change in the way that maternal care, maternity care is provided

in a jail. So we have new mother and baby units, we have equal access to treatment, there is much more by way of observation of pregnant mothers. The point I just make is, there will be occasions, I suspect, but it's a matter for our independent judiciary, where there will be a small minority of cases. But it is worth just emphasising the point that you touched on very briefly. In terms of those sent to custody, around two thirds of women sent to immediate custody are sent to sentences of less than 12 months. And that is a point which I know has been of concern to some of your listeners. We are alive to that. And the central point i want to make is that if people can be properly punished because crime has can't pay and the rule of law matters but if

people can be properly punished in the community then that's a sensible thing to do because the statistics show that those who are sentenced to immediate custody of under 12 months are over 50 likely to re-offend. And yet if the sentence is suspended, in other words, you get a custodial sentence, but it doesn't take immediate effect, but there are conditions, then the re-offending rate is half that, under 25%. So we think it is sensible to follow the evidence because that's ultimately what protects the public by reducing re-offending. Alex Chalk, thank you for talking to us this morning.

Thank you. Lord Chancellor and Justice Secretary there, I should be clear that when we were talking about matters of law and order, we're talking primarily about justice in England. Other parts of the UK do have different rules. I thought it'd be helpful to remind you of that. Now, endometriosis is a chronic condition which affects one in 10 women. It's where tissue similar to the lining of the womb starts to grow in other places, causing debilitating pain and in some cases, fertility issues. But a charity that looks to support women suffering from the condition, Endometriosis South Coast, has faced criticism

this week after announcing a trans woman, Steph Richards, would be its new CEO. The decision to appoint Steph was made by Jodie Hughes, the chair of the trustees. Jodie also founded the charity and Jodie and Steph are on the line now. Steph, I know you're receiving a fair bit of the attention, the brunt of it, and including a lot of criticism. It will be important to hear from you directly. So good morning to you. But I wanted to come, if I can, first to Jodie, because Jodie, you founded this charity. You have personal experience of endometriosis.

And I believe you sought out Steph for the role. Good morning. And why don't you start by telling us why? So, yeah, I have lots of experience of endometriosis. We didn't seek Steph out. I came across Steph in our hometown of Portsmouth. We were both nominated for the ITV National Diversity Awards up in Liverpool, where we first met. And Steph does a lot of work for women's health, a lot of activism work for women's health,

a lot of awareness work for women's health. And I myself suffer really badly with endometriosis and multiple chronic illnesses that go alongside endometriosis. I'm a single mum and I am writing my PhD at the moment in endometriosis. I have a lot on, I have to choose where and how to spend my spoons. And quite frankly, the general day-to-day running and admin work needs to be handed over to a CEO that is better equipped to do that and has more energy to do that. Do you understand any of the criticism? Yes and no.

Tell me what your response is then my response is the ceo of prostate cancers of a female they can't get prostate cancer um a ceo is doesn't need to have endometriosis a ceo doesn't need to be that sex a ceo is there to do the general running of day-to-day stuff, not to do the decision-making. That is still in the hands of the trustees. And all of our trustees have endometriosis or adenomyosis. They are the face of a charity. They are the voice of a charity. They aren't just answering emails and dealing with finances.

People who are aware of certainly when it comes to smaller charities it's all hands on deck uh as to say that um why did you want to do it steph um i think that we're all in the world to try and well when we leave it to make the world a better place um i'm passionate around feminism. And it's interesting that initially you were talking about with the prison minister. That's an area that I get quite deeply involved in. And I'm really pleased that you brought up about no birth behind bars, Emma,

because that's something I'm really passionate around. But really, lots of women shouldn't be in prison they should actually be in women's centres and I don't mean to go off track immediately. I'm an activist that's what I do I'm a human rights activist and I cover various subjects going around feminism and when Jodie offered me this position, it came out of the blue. I really didn't, I was over a cup of coffee. I really didn't expect it at all. And I said immediately, yes, I would do it. You said immediately, yes, you had no reservations about taking the role on?

No, none whatsoever. I find that interesting because for this sort of condition where you as a trans woman will know that you can't have unless you're born with a womb, you may have had some reservations, as a man may have had some reservations, about taking on and being the face of a charity that is for women. Ah, OK. But by that analogy, should the CEO of a shelter be living in a tent?

You can make that argument, but there is a very particular situation with women's health that is different to homelessness. Around the diagnosis times it takes for this particular condition, which is severely underfunded. And the fact that the women that you are serving, which you both obviously care greatly about, I'm not questioning that, have to feel comfortable coming to the organisation and talking to the people there. So I find it interesting that you had absolutely no reservations about that. No, because I'm a feminist.

And to be fair, Emma, every single person that we support are in support of this decision. Every single person that is involved in our charity and lives in our area have been in support of this. The hate has come from mainly other countries. And a lot of it is are from transphobes. A lot is, are from transphobes. A lot of it's from transphobes. Would you consider yourself, Steph, a trans activist? Because there's two strands of criticism

when I've been reading the messages that have been coming in this morning. And there's also some of those who don't have an issue with it. I just want to make that point because of what you just said as well. But there's another issue about you being a trans activist. Are you a trans activist?

I cover, yes, I'm a CEO of a trans organisation. That's true. Can someone who isn't trans, just a quick one, if I can, can someone who isn't trans be the CEO of a trans organisation? Yes, of course I can. Has that ever happened? Well, there's hardly any trans organisations. There are quite a few. I wonder, do you feel as a trans person,

you could be fairly represented by someone who isn't trans? It's a very specific situation. It's far less common than homelessness to go against your previous example. Do you feel someone could do that? Well, they do. You know, there was Nancy Keeley, who was CEO of Stonewall. Stonewall's not just a trans organisation. I asked specifically about trans. It represents a

whole lot of other people, which is why potentially it's had a big row. Ultimately, if someone's passionate around a cause, which I am around endometriosis, then I think they most certainly can. Okay, you're generalising. Let me be clearer and I'll give you the full chance to respond. With your campaigning history, of which there are records of it online, and some of the things that you feel very passionate about, no one's calling that into question, there is a concern that as a trans activist now running, a ceo of an endometriosis charity for women that you will not preserve the importance of things like the word woman and that experience because in your statement on x which is what twitter used to be called uh 10 you say of those

assigned female at birth suffer from these awful disease. Is the word you're looking for there, woman? I look at woman, but I also look at the issue of trans men and non-binary people. You know, there's something like 5,000, 5,500 trans men who has endometriosis who probably feel absolutely, that's in the UK, that feels rather left out. There's also non-binary people. But the vast majority are women.

Yes, of course the vast majority. But does that mean that we should leave behind trans men, Emma? Absolutely not the case. The charity can more than cater. I mean, unless it's a specialist charity and you want to go down that particular route, you tell me, can more than cater for it. But that's what I'm trying to explain to you. There's two different arguments. There's the argument that you don't have to be the same as your service user to represent them. You've made that argument. There are countless

examples. But there is a different argument about your specific appointment, Steph, which is a concern that as a trans activist, as someone who has been accused of using inflammatory language in the past, such as saying the word TERF at people who are also feminists, that you are not the right person to represent a women's charity. So the term TERF can be seen by some as a slur and others actually embrace it as being something really positive. Just to say for our listeners, trans-exclusionary radical feminists, I accept it can be taken in different ways, but I'll let you continue to respond to that point. Well, I think that really sums it up at the end of the day. I was brought into endometriosis South Coast to raise the awareness of endometriosis full stop

and also to raise the profile of endometriosis South Coast. It's pretty amazing that in five days I've achieved that. And the vehicle that's done that is transphobia. Do you really think you've achieved it for the women who are sitting at home in a lot of pain? No, but people are talking about it. They're not talking about endometriosis. Nobody's suddenly understood the disease anymore, committed to any more funding, done anything to help with diagnosis times. They're talking about whether somebody who is a trans activist can understand them in their position.

You've said all your service users are happy. I don't know, have you committed to polling in the last five days to know that? I've not really looked. I've received so much hate. Jodie, how can you know all of your service users are happy? Because the service users are engaging in the support group and they're telling us that they are happy um where we actually um told everybody that Steph was going to be CEO was at an event everybody was in massive support of that um it was a very very very positive event um and then literally the last two days i haven't been able

to turn my computer on because of the hate i have been told i should be burned alive um which is not okay just because of the appointment of somebody we are all of the trustee board suffer with endometriosis we We never want to take away anybody's pain, never want to take away anybody's feelings of what they're going through. Literally, this is, it will still be me fronting the charity. I will be the face of the charity. Steph is here to do the running of the day-to-day.

Do you regret this appointment? Absolutely not. Even though it has led to a conversation that we have been having as opposed to about endometriosis? I'm really, really devastated that I'm not on here talking about endometriosis and my PhD work. You can come back and do that at a newsy time. We've done a lot of discussions on that. And women's are really, I don't think you can say wouldn and do that at a newsy time. We've done a lot of discussions on that.

And women's hour really, I don't think you can say wouldn't do that. But today the discussion is different because of your decision with your trustees. And yeah, to be honest, if we're having the conversation, if we're having the difficult conversations, somebody has to have the difficult conversations. Well, I specialise in them them but i'm trying to i'm trying to understand whether you think that you are just with that statement 10 of those assigned female at birth to come back to you steph suffer from this awful disease why not say women because within endometriosis south Coast, we use the word everyone. You don't use the word women at an endometriosis charity?

I'm quite happy to use the word woman. I certainly understand the concerns that sometimes language go too far. Sorry, let me just get this straight. You're happy to use the word woman, but you're not going to use it when describing in a tweet about your appointment and in this new role. You're not going to use it when discussing endometriosis. I'm happy to use the word woman now. I appreciate that the vast majority of endometriosis affects women. You probably also know, Emma, that there's 29 cases of endometriosis, which has been found in men. 29?

Yeah, that's my understanding. Jodie, you're the expert. Do you not see, by even bringing this up, you could be accused of devaluing the female experience, which is why this is such a specific example of women's health. But Emma, you're pushing the issue. The bottom line is... I'm asking a question. Well, at the end of the day, I fully understand that women, by a vast majority, suffer from endometriosis. But I don't think it's fair that we turn around

and we ignore that there are some trans men and non-binary people. Nobody's saying that. That's whataboutery. I'm saying, do you not see by even in your first interview on Woman's Hour, raising this about men and about those who don't call themselves women, that you are already becoming a figure who is a trans activist at the head of a women's charity? The inclusive language is something that we've been doing for the past three years in our organisation. I don't doubt that. That was my decision as a cis heterosexual woman to make the language inclusive. We have always used people with endometriosis, individuals with endometriosis. But they're not people with endometriosis, are they? They're women. What's the issue with the word woman? We had. You have to have a womb, Steph. You have to have a womb. You do not have to have a womb to have endometriosis.

You have to have been born as a biological woman with the ingredients of being a woman inside you to suffer from this disease because of the way that tissues like the womb lining moves around the body. Endometriosis is a systemic inflammatory condition. We need to move away from the gynecological side of things because you don't have to be born with a womb to have it. You don't have to always be born with a womb,

but predominantly you are, and then you have to have the equipment around that. These are facts. They are not facts. They're alternative facts. I don't follow. So endometriosis is cells that are similar to those that line the wound, meaning it's not a reproductive disorder.

It being seen as a gynecological disorder maybe is the reason why for the last 200 years research and medicine isn't progressing so we've got to rebrand something that men can have to be taken seriously no let me finish this to be taken seriously by the male system of medicine just a just a final question to you Steph you say you're going to carry on in the role Jodie you've done enormous good work for those around you and you obviously want to keep doing it do you, Steph. You say you're going to carry on in the role. Jodie, you've done enormous good work for those around you and you obviously want to keep doing it. Do you think, Steph, after this conversation and conversations like it, you can be good in the role? Well, I'll allow the trustees of Endometriosis South Coast to deal with that one. Ultimately, they appointed me and they can fire me. Steph Richards, Jodie Hughes, thank you very much.

I'm Sarah Trelevan, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth.

How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now. For your time. Now, how far would you go to help your child achieve their dreams? I asked that my next guest. She's gone far. Lisa Lintott always enjoyed writing and creative pursuits, but being

a single mum to two boys meant this side of her life had to take a back seat. This is until her son, Jazz, an aspiring actor, felt like he had reached a wall in his career. Consistently being typecast racially or sent the same roles over and over again was starting to get to him. So Lisa took matters into her own hands. She enrolled herself into a creative writing masters, wrote her own play, casting her son in the lead role. Jazz is a Woman's Hour listener. Thank you for that. Many of our listeners are also men. Messaged the programme recently to tell us what his mum had done. And when we asked you, our audience, who in your life had spotted your talent and made a difference to your life, he got in touch.

Going for Gold tells the life story of the British boxer Frankie Lucas and has since won multiple awards, including Best Production Play, Best Producer, excuse me, Best Actor at this year's Black British Theatre Awards, catapulting them both into the spotlight. I caught up with Lisa and Jazz Lintott earlier in this week and Jazz told me about his experience of being typecast as an actor. For a long period of time, you know, it was just the same sort of roles coming through, terrorist roles or drug dealer roles. And those roles can be great if there's like substance to them. But, you know, when it's a lot of the same, I suppose, yeah, my mum decided to take matters into her own hands and wrote this amazing true story play that we've just ended up winning three awards for, four awards for now. I mean, that's quite a thing to do.

You know, there's lots of women who I'm sure look on for their son's career and think, well, it's not going very well. And they get frustrated for them. And that's annoying. But, you know, why did you decide to do this? Because I think from my own personal, from my own upbringing, there's something in me that understands the pain of rejection or the sense of not belonging. And when you watch your children go through that, you kind of feel, you just feel that that's not right. And then you feel kind of powerless.

And at a certain point, you just want to take that into your own hands and do what you can to kind of cushion it. And I know that my son is a lead actor. Do you know that? And if no one else is going to see it, I kind of cushion it. And I know that my son is a lead actor. Do you know that? And if no one else is going to see it, I can't shout it. But you had to go and train to do this, didn't you? Yeah, I had to. I mean, I went and did a master's. It wasn't just you wrote, you know, a play and then it was there.

Yeah, I'd love to say that. I just woke up one day. But I did. I went and did a master's in creative writing. Okay. Because what were you working as while you were doing this? I've worked in education. Okay.

So I'm a teacher really by profession and an educational consultant. And I have dabbled a bit in production. So I've done a little bit of script development. But you are a writer at heart though. Yeah, I'm a writer at heart, but I'm not a writer by profession. No, but you've got that in you. That's always what you've wanted to do. So I was working part-time as teaching,

and then I did a part-time course in creative writing, and then I did a four-week online course on an intro to playwriting. What were you doing while your mum was doing all this? Were you doing auditions? I also went back to do my Masters in Acting for Screen at Royal Central School of Speech and Drama. So you were both doing education at the same time? Yeah, we were.

And what did you make of your mum doing this for you? Well, it's just been absolutely amazing. It's made me really happy, not just obviously for the fact that we've won the awards, but to be able to, for us both to be doing something that we really love and receiving some sort of recognition for it. And it's a project that we've done together. Obviously, my mum wrote it, but, you know, me taking that lead role in it

and trying to do her writing justice, I suppose. And we should hear a bit about the story. So, Going for Gold, you know, Frankie's at the heart of this. Tell us about Frankie. How did you come across him and his story? Well, funnily enough, when I was a kid, my mum had a corner shop on the estate where we lived and Frankie lived next door to my mum's corner shop.

Where was this? In Kentish Town. In Kentish Town in London. Just off Queen's Crescent. And he trained at George Francis' gym, which was just up the road on Haverstock Hill. So he used to come into my mum's shop and John Conti and all those kind of middleweight boxers from the 70s to get, he used to come in specifically and get ox's tongue. So half a pound of ox's tongue

and milk that they would have a hearty a hearty diet yeah and so i knew him but i was only young i was like 11 and he just had this i was a bit scared of him because he was quite quiet but he had this stare about him that was quite penetrating, you know, like he would always look you direct in your eyes and was really polite, you know, but it was very unnerving as a kid. And, I mean, time went on and people move on. And then when I was doing the creative writing, I was asked to do a short story on food and I just remembered him coming in and so I kind of started with, can I have half a pound of ox's tongue?

And then it made me think, I wonder what happened to him. And then I kind of started to research him. And Steve Bunce had done a kind of radio show on him, a little podcast. And then I was like, wow, this is an amazing story. And you did get to meet him as well. Yeah, so we got to meet him. So I wrote a little short film first. Right.

And then found out that he had a son and his son was alive. And then we found the son. And then the son said that Frankie was still alive. And I was like, oh, I'm going to write this play. And he was like, well, he's recovering from cancer at the minute. Give it a few months. let's see how he feels. And then we got the phone call at kind of Christmas, didn't we, 2020, saying, oh, he's recovered, he's seen the little short film, come in.

And then he gave me like 15 people to interview. So I was like four months interviewing all these characters from the world of boxing in the 1970s. What's the heart of the story for you, Jaz, when you look at it? Because you play him. Yeah, I think the heart of the story, ultimately, it's about family. It's about belonging. It's about feeling that sense of belonging.

And then there's also the aspects of having to overcome certain things and the struggles and the strength that's needed to to overcome to overcome those obstacles and I think that's what makes it a really interesting story and what makes it a really beautiful story is there's redemption in it as well it's quite a hard role to play it's in yeah this was this was definitely the hardest role that I've ever had to play. And but also at the same time, the most rewarding role. I think if I was lucky enough to ever play a role like this again, it would be incredibly lucky. But yeah, he goes from nine to 70. He goes through all sorts of prejudice.

He goes through mental health decline. he ends up with psychosis and I really had to sort of like dig deep um for this character for two reasons one to do him and his family sort of justice with with portraying him um and secondly to do my mum's writing justice because it was a you know when I I read the play obviously loads and loads of times and it's powerful it's a really powerful play and there were times I was like shoot I don't I don't know how this is going to work like in terms of because it's just deep it's a very deep piece but a very real piece and there's lots of humor in it too but yeah I was just hopeful that that we could all as a team do this story justice. Well, it seems that way. I mean, your speech got a standing ovation

at the Black British Theatre Awards and you won these awards. That must have been quite a moment as well. Yeah, that was a really big moment and I was talking to my mum after about that because this play was, even with the Best Actor Award, that wasn't, I think I said it in that,

this award isn't about me. This play is much bigger than just me. It was about the Windrush generation. It was about Frankie. And also it's just so many people's stories that's being told through this particular story. And also the sacrifice, I suppose, that your mum made. Yeah, exactly.

To get this to the stage. Because I should say, I mean, I believe you took out a loan on your house just keep yourself fed and watered I'm obsessed with you know how people actually make it pay I know because that's it hasn't paid okay it's paid um artistically it's paid artistically and it's been a journey that I just feel so privileged to have been on I feel chosen in a way. For whatever reason, I was chosen to tell Frankie's story. And the payoff for that is that my son got to play a role with real authenticity.

And different to the ones that people think. Yeah, integrity to the piece. I know you wanted to pay tribute to your mum, didn't you? Yes, I did. I was just getting to that moment. So with that, it was when that speech happened at the awards and we got the standing ovation, it was just a really powerful moment because you can,

and everyone does it, you know, you can thank your parents if you're fortunate enough to have your parents around. You can thank them for things, for the sacrifices they made. And you can just say that to them. But so when I said this on stage and I told the story of how, you know, my mum went and got her master's and ended up writing me this play. And now here I am collecting this award. It was, you know, the whole of the National Theatre. I think it was like 2000 people all stood up and just gave my mum this huge standing ovation. And me and my mum were talking about it afterwards. That was a really special moment for the both of us where I know that that's something that I will take to my grave with me. Because to have all that love directed towards my mum

and I think people recognised what mothers do for their kids. It would take a lot to top that moment for me in anything, just to have all that, you know. It was great. Liz and Jaz Lintott speaking to me about their play Going For Gold.

Sounds brilliant. Minnie the Minx, I mentioned this right at the beginning of the programme, is turning 70 in December. The much-loved Beano cartoon character will celebrate 70 years since her first appearance. The writers and illustrators of the Beano, based in Dundee, Scotland, created Minnie to be just as tough as the boys and kick back against pre-war societal norms.

Well, that was in 1953. And today, a special edition of The Beano is coming out. Guest edited by England's women's football captain, Leah Williamson. Joining me now, Laura Howell, Minnie's first female illustrator, who's been drawing Minnie since 2018. Good morning. Morning, Emma. Lovely to have you here.

Minnie the Minx. Can you paint us a picture if people are struggling to always remember what she looks like oh well she's uh she's not changed much visually uh over the 70 years she's still got her uh little beret with a red pom-pom she's still got ribbons in her hair and a stripy sweatshirt she has over the years swapped her school shoes for a pair of trainers though which uh which is a good move because she has a lot of running around to do on an average day take us into her world when you're when you're drawing some of these uh strips what's she up to oh gosh there's so much variety um i have two regular writers who work on mini uh with me uh andy fanton and Nigel Octoluni, and they both bring something a bit different to the table. But, yeah, she might be fighting against the local police officer

who's trying to stop the kids from having fun. That's not changed very much since the 1950s. She'll still lob a rotten tomato at him if she feels it's appropriate. But, you know, it's 2023. The Beano moves with the times. So she might also be doing online gaming with, you know, the other kids in Beano Town. She might be going to see a local YouTube celebrity and maybe getting annoyed with

them if they don't live up to her expectations. So yeah, she's got a lot on her agenda. Your own story into drawing Minnie wasn't straightforward. Tell us a bit about that yes so um i've always loved drawing but uh when i was growing up um i never really considered it as something that i could do for a job i would have liked to but i didn't really have the confidence in my own abilities to think yes I could I could do this um it took me until my my late 20s to to actually reach a point where it became you know a an option for me um it required a leap of faith giving up my previous job um but I did that in 2006 um and started working for the Beano in 2007. And that's been ongoing ever since. So it was a gamble that paid off.

Yes. And one of three female artists at the Beano at the moment. Is it a world that's still mainly men who go into that space? Or what's your read on that as your industry? Yes, I mean, it's a bit of a misconception that there aren't that many women working in comics, but they don't tend to cluster in humour comics like this. So when I started, I was the first one in, you know, nearly 70 years at that point. We have had more in the meantime, of course, and there will be more in the future, I've no doubt.

But, yeah, it's good that we're more represented in the Beano now. And I mentioned this special anniversary edition of the Beano edited by England lioness Leah Wilson. What's she doing, Minnie, in the birthday cartoon? What's she up to? Oh, gosh. So it's a bit of a takeover issue. So every character's story involves Minnie or is Minnie adjacent in some way.

But the lead Minnie the Minx story involves um uh Leah coming to uh Bash Street school and uh suggesting putting on a uh a musical called the Lioness Sings um and she also manages to uh to prank Minnie with a whoopee cushion so you know classic Beano Japes involved. Do you think um just that what she was set up for, reminding ourselves the history of how women and girls were viewed, do you think she still has that purpose for making girls and boys think differently about girls? Yes, absolutely. I mean, obviously it was a different world back in 1953

and things have moved on tremendously. But we still live in a world where gender can kind of box you in a bit. You can be weighed down by expectations of what a girl should be and what a woman should be, the sensible one, the quiet one. And she will never be those things. She will always be the wild one, the one who centres fun in everything. Do you feel you're more wild as a result of drawing Minnie? I like it when I talk to actors and you know, they've inhabited the space and mental mind, the mind element of their characters. How does it impact an illustrator when you're drawing a cheeky person like Minnie?

Oh, do you know what? I wish I could say I was more wild and rebellious. But I think anybody that has to fill in a tax return has lost the right to call themselves wild. Amen. The life admin might seep it suck it out of you but you've got to try and keep it a little bit haven't you absolutely well i do own a beret with a pom-pom on the top that i um i wear at comic cons and i do own a stripy top so you know if if i'm not living the life i I'm at least living the visuals. And does she have the best storylines? You know, when you come in the mix with Dennis and Dennis the Menace and the Bash Street Kids, do you have to fight for that?

Oh, well, I mean, we have so many talented writers on the Beano and all of them bring their own thing to the characters that they're working on. So, you know, I've got to be fair and say they're all equally good. Well, I'm now imagining you wearing the stripy top with the beret and the pom-pom doing your tax return, which is quite an image. I mean, maybe something for a future card that you make and send out to friends. You know, I'll try that this year.

See if HMRC likes it. I'll enclose a photo. It may help. It may not help with, you know, earning the money, but it may help entertain you while you're in the midst of it. Laura Howell, thank you so much.

We're talking to Laura, who is the illustrator of Minnie the Minx, who's turning 70. And there's a special edition of the Beano coming out today. Guest edited by England's football captain Leah Williamson. Fascinating

to hear some of the stories behind all of that and how it comes together and how she's changed over 70 years and our perceptions still need to perhaps keep moving on. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Thank you so much for your time. Join us again for the next one. Hi, I'm Sean Keeveny and I'm back with a new series of Your Place or Mine from BBC Radio 4,

the travel show that's going nowhere. I'm a proper hornbird me, but each show sees another remarkable guest try to persuade me off my sofa and into the big wide world. And it is warm. It is warm, but you just don't wear a lot of clothes and you just find a banana tree that's wafting. Happy days. But will I make it out of the front door? Lots of smiles from people. I don't know if you're against that. Find out by listening to Your Place or Mine with Sean Keaveney on BBC Sounds. everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more

questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.