Woman's Hour - Kalena Bovell, conductor; Family Secrets, Sustainable Fashion

Episode Date: December 14, 2020

The Panamanian-American conductor Kalena Bovell, is quickly becoming “one of the brightest stars in the world of classical music.” Currently Assistant Conductor of the Memphis Symphony Orchestra , she is making her international conducting debut at the Southbank with Chineke! Europe's first majority Black, Asian and ethnically-diverse orchestra. She describes how she first discovered she could sing and fell in love with the violin, before finding her life’s passion of standing on the podium in front of an orchestra, and explains her ambition is to conduct an orchestra behind heavy metal band Metallica.All families have secrets and back in 2018 when we asked listeners to tell us some of their stories Moira wanted to talk to us about a secret that has affected her life. Now 57, she grew up an only child with her mum and dad in Swansea. She speaks to reporter Jo Morris.Safia Minney MBE is number 28 on the Woman's Hour Power List: Our Planet, for her pioneering work in making fashion more sustainable. As the founder of People Tree and Real Sustainability, she's worked for decades to change how people think about clothes. But how has that changed over the years? And how can we enjoy fashion and clothing without having a negative impact? Safia joins Jane, along with influencer Venetia LaManna and ByRotation founder Eshita Kabra-Davies to discuss.Presenter: Jane Garvey Producer: Louise Corley Editor: Beverley Purcell

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hi, this is Jane Garvey and welcome to the Woman's Hour podcast. It's Monday the 14th of December 2020. Hi there, good morning. You heard in the news there about Unilever. We're talking sustainable fashion on Woman's Hour today. Can you love clothes and love the planet? Well, the answer is sort of maybe if you try hard

enough at bbc woman's hour on social media if you'd like to contact us this morning you can also text us on 84844 but just be careful and make sure that you find out exactly what your network provider is going to charge you for doing that but the text number is 84844. Let's start with something very, very important later on as well, by the way, I should say we're talking about another family secret today featuring what used to be the real stigma of mental illness. And we'll have a word with an up and coming conductor as well. First, though, as I said, this is important stuff. Low income families are even worse off than they were in the summer. This comes from a new report, one of a series of reports about poverty in the pandemic from the Church of England and the Child Poverty Action Group.

Sophie Howes is senior policy officer and co-author of the report. She works at the CPAG. Sophie, good morning to you. Good morning. Now, I know this isn't the first of your reports. Things seem to have got worse since the summer. First of all, how many people, how many families have you spoken to for this latest report? Yes. So as you mentioned, Jane, this is the second in a series of reports that we've published with the Church of England. And so we've spoken since May up to the end of November, we've spoken to 678 families in total. But this report that we put out today is focusing on responses from 393 low income families.

So families who would be eligible for free school meals. And these are people you've selected or you've contacted or are they self-selecting? How have you found them? So we found them through a benefits calculator called Entitled To. So this is a website that people can go on to find out how much they might be entitled to in terms of support from the social security system. That website kindly allowed us to, they hosted that survey on their website. And so we were able to access families that way. Right.

So families volunteered to fill it out. Okay, got you um and what have you found out then about how things have progressed or not actually since the summer yeah i mean i think we were really interested to kind of keep on surveying families as the pandemic progressed just to really see you know a family is going to kind of recover from this they get is there going to be some kind of bounce back and I think what our report shows very starkly is that things are kind of getting worse for families um not better um so um three quarters of the families that we spoke to have reported that they're finding it very difficult difficult or very difficult to manage financially um so six in ten reported struggling

with basic living costs so things like covering food, utilities, travel, items for children. And that situation is slightly worse from the families that we spoke to between September to November compared to the families that responded May to July. So it seems that things are kind of deteriorating as opposed to getting better. And some of these families will have at least one adult in work. Is that right

yeah so i mean lots of families are reporting um job loss but we did have if we look at the data of uh we asked families about their employment sort of pre-pandemic and so two-thirds of the families that we spoke to reported that they had one adult in work in the household and of those families most reported that either one or both adults had lost their job in couple families as a result so quite high experiences of job loss which is obviously correlating with why families are struggling financially. And these were job losses linked directly to the Covid pandemic. Yeah, so we are specifically. And so you have that combination of losing employment and then also rising living costs. So families were telling us that they're having children at home more,

so particularly as the weather gets colder. So you've got things like rising heating costs, food where they may have got more food within school or other kind of types of settings they're having to meet those costs um so yeah i think um it's a sort of combination really of a kind of a loss in income and then those rising living costs and if you're living on a very low income those things are going to affect you very very immediately and of course the challenge of christmas is now upon us as well that won't be helping no no and we did um we did

ask some families about um kind of how they were feeling about Christmas and the kind of top line message was kind of quite anxious, really. Anxious about the future, anxious about trying to provide some semblance of a normal Christmas for their children and presents, etc. I mean, we all know the costs that are associated with trying to have a family Christmas. And for these families, that's going to be very, very difficult this year. Well, it's a pretty bleak picture, quite frankly. What can be done? What might be done, Sophie?

I mean, I think the key thing is that these families are relying on the social security system. That is the safety net for them. So when they, you know, some of these, some of the families we spoke to kind of earlier on in the summer were accessing the furlough scheme and were protected in that way, which is a bit more kind of related to your to your salary, and isn't the kind of sudden drop that you get if you start claiming benefits. But that was less the case with the families that we spoke to in autumn. So more and more families are actually relying on universal credit and other types of social security. And the adequacy of those benefits is not enough. It's not sufficient to meet those basic living costs.

Well, you should say, of course, that some of these families were already dependent on the benefit system even before jobs were lost because the jobs they were in, the work they were doing, it wasn't highly paid enough. Yeah, exactly. So this kind of idea that you have kind of out of work benefit claimants over here and the rest of the population here is a myth because lots of people claim in work benefits, as you say. Right. OK. So what would help, I suppose, would be that that £20 boost to universal credit is kept? Yeah. So that's going to be really, really important. So families were telling us very strongly that the adequacy of the system was not sufficient and that they were already struggling to meet those costs.

So to take that £20 away now, so the government has only committed to providing that till the end of March. Yeah, we should say, of course, that you implied slightly there that they were going to take it away. We know that it won't be going anywhere, if it does at all, until the end of March. Yeah, we should say, of course, that you implied slightly there that they were going to take it away. We know that it won't be going anywhere, if it does at all, until the end of March. No, yeah, exactly. So that's a temporary increase until the end of March. And that's fantastic. That's great that the government took that step. But what we need now is for them to make that more permanent, because families just need security. If they whip that £20 away from

families now, what we've seen in our report and in our research will get will get worse for families so we really need to see a protection of that i mean at cpad and cov we'd also like to see an increase in children's benefits so there's not been nothing kind of that very explicitly acknowledges the cost of children during this time so an increase in child benefit um would be hugely beneficial to these families that would get you know cash to families very quickly through existing infrastructure and let's not forget that child benefits lost a lot of its value in recent years. So sorry just I want to interrupt just to ask whether you want that to be targeted a targeted rise in child benefit then you think

might be a good idea? So all families who are currently eligible for child benefit we think should get a £10 increase. Everybody? Everyone who gets child benefit yes so that would be so that's going to be a broader range of families than say if you were increased benefits through universal credit but we think that's the right way to go that there's quite a lot of families who are kind of just above the eligibility for means-tested benefits who actually are all really struggling so I think child benefit would be the way to go. What about families on the old or individuals on the old style benefits because actually most people have not yet moved to universal credit have they? Yeah so this is something that did come through our in our um data was families who are

accessing what are known as legacy benefits so other types things like income support employment and support allowance and the government haven't added the 20 pounds to um to those benefits and there were some families who are accessing those benefits and saying that that 20 pound would really really help them um so that's something that we're calling for very strongly alongside that ask to keep the £20 is to extend it so that it's not a case of, you know, if you're on universal credit, you get it. And if you're on another type of benefit, you don't. We don't think that's particularly fair. There was plenty in the news bulletin at 10 o'clock about the negotiations going on with the European Union and Britain and our deal or whatever it might be, no deal.

There is the possibility this might have real life implications for some of the people you've been talking to. What would you say about that? Yeah, I mean, I'm not an expert in the Brexit negotiations. But what I would say is just that, you know, a further knock to the economy is going to hit low-income families really hard. And that's the last thing they really need at this particular point. And I think we have to think really carefully about what does that safety net, what does that support system look like? And we think it really needs to be strengthened. If we want to try and prevent rising child poverty, that's the big question is how much of a priority is that for our government?

Well, that's the view of Sophie Howes, Senior Policy Officer at the Child Poverty Action Group. She is one of the co-authors of that Poverty in the Pandemic report, commissioned alongside the Church of England. You have any views on that, you can let us know. Now let's go to Memphis, where it's extremely early in the morning and we can talk to the Panamanian American conductor Kalina Bovell. Kalina good morning to you how are you today? Good morning how are you I'm doing very well. Now you are currently assistant conductor at the Memphis Symphony Orchestra but you're making your international debut at the South Bank with Chanique. They're very significant,

actually. They are Europe's first majority black, Asian and ethnically diverse orchestra. So Kalina, this is going to be something that's made available online today. That's right, isn't it? That's correct. Yes. I believe it's at 7.30 UK time. Okay. Well, people can make sure they have a look for that later if this is their thing. Just how significant is this for you, your international conducting debut? Oh, I mean, it's it's incredibly huge. But then also, you know, to work with Cheneke for me was a dream come true because I remember seeing that press release in 2015. You know, I remember seeing this image of this ensemble of people who look like me. And I remember saying one day I'm going to work with this orchestra.

Yes, I can completely get why that might have been what you thought at the time. Just for anybody who doesn't know, how long has the orchestra been going and who inspired all that? So the orchestra has been around since 2015. And it was founded by Chichi Nwanaku, OBE, who is the double bass player. Yeah. So they've been in existence for five years now, going on six. Yeah, I think she was. She's certainly been a guest on this programme. So she's somebody that many of our listeners will know and admire hugely. Tell us a little bit about yourself, Kalina. I gather you are, well, you were a violinist and a really good one.

That is correct. So I started playing the violin when I was 11 years old. So my parents are originally from Central America. They are from Panama and moved to the United States in the early 70s, late, excuse me, late 70s, early 80s. So I didn't grow up in a musical household. I grew up in a household that was very big on education. And so I actually thought I was going to be a teacher. But I came to music when I was nine years old because I started singing, eventually started playing the violin and didn't come to conducting until university. And it just kind of fell into place where I just decided this is what I want to do for the rest of my life. But why is conducting better for you than being a violinist? You know, the thing with violin is that, one, I was so very late to the instrument.

So normally when you start a string instrument, you're three or four years old. Now, I started when I was 11. I didn't have my first private lesson until I was 18. So I was seven years self-taught in the public school system, which for me already put me behind all of my colleagues by the time I got to university. And so when I got to university, I also kept getting injuries. I mean, I had tendonitis in my forearms and my shoulders. So there were so many obstacles I was always having to overcome. Whereas with conducting, when I first started, it wasn't like I had to relearn how to physically use my body. It was something that was brand new and something that I could initially just kind of start with as a beginner, as opposed to constantly having to relearn, readjust and fix. And conducting for me, it was just something about it was so

natural from the movements to just seeing how a score fit together to working with the musicians. I mean, there was just something about it that for me, I just knew I had to keep pursuing. I wonder really what it feels like to take charge of an orchestra for the first time. How do you play it, Kalina? How do you look? What do you say to them? How do you get them on side, I suppose, is what I'm asking. Oh, that's a really great question. You know, I think the biggest thing that I can do as a conductor is have a very clear vision before going into the first rehearsal in regards to the things that I want musically and sonically. And I think also, you know, the job of

a conductor is we're also psychologists. We have to read the room. We have to be able to know, you know, what a section wants, what a person needs to hear, how they need to hear it. And, you know, the thing about me is I'm not a dictator. I'm very down to earth. I'm very relaxed when I get on the podium. And I think people can just get a sense of my friendly nature. And most people generally just want to play myth with me and want to work with me. And so for the first rehearsal, I always listen. You know, it's less about my ideas. It's more about let's play this through together so I can see what the collective ideas are. And eventually we get to work.

I'm just thinking about the practicalities about this. When you gaze out at that sea of faces for the first time, can you spot the troublemaker? Can you spot the ones who are likely to be carp? Well, you know, because there's always one. I mean, essentially at school, it could have been me. I mean, the person who'd start the carping, if you know what I mean.

Yeah. I want to say, oh, I don't want to generalise. I'm like, oh, it's always the trumpet players. No, it doesn't surprise me. It'd be funny if it was the guy on the triangle, I suppose, although I don't know why I say that. No, I'm sure they're lovely people. Actually, well, we should really have a little clip of what's going to be available tonight.

So let's have a little bit of the music. Here we go. ¶¶ MUSIC CONTINUES Now, that is something very, very significant, actually, isn't it, Kalina? That is Adolphus Hailstock's Epitaph for a Man. Tell us about that. Oh, I mean, just hearing that takes me back to the performance. So it was written by Adolphus Hailstock, who is an American composer, who is an African-American composer. And it was written in memoriam of Martin Luther King. And so that's special to me because one, living in Memphis, the place where Dr. King died. And then also here we have the African-American Civil Rights Museum. And so it takes place at the

Lorraine Motel. And so you're going through that exhibit and you're just seeing kind of the last few steps and the last few things that Martin Luther King did on the day that his life ended. But, you know, what's interesting about that piece is one of the notes that the composer wrote says, a great man is being buried. A few mourners ring the gravesite singing a spiritual. Gradually more bereaved gather and join in. They reflect upon And I mean, this piece for me was very powerful. And I remember this, I actually teared up on the podium because of all the emotion that I was thinking about as, you know, being a Memphian. And the thing about Memphis is parts of the city has stood still since the death of Martin Luther King. And if you speak to many Memphians, they will tell you,

there are two things that we will never forgive ourselves for, which is we have killed two kings because Elvis died here and then also Martin Luther King died here. So, I mean, there's this huge burden that they walk around with on their shoulders. Do you really, you really, I've never been to Memphis, so I don't know, but do you really sense that, that people haven't moved on? The place hasn't allowed itself or has it not been allowed to move on? What do you say? I think it's a little bit of both.

And the reason I say it has not moved on, because you can drive into certain areas and you will still see the same architecture. You will still see the same paint from the 60s you will see unpaved roads I mean it really does look like a time stamp it's very interesting yeah I know you're conscious of the fact that you didn't have many role models in the role you currently occupy I guess Marion Orsop is somebody I've been fortunate enough to talk to her as well. She is. Is she the woman as far as your profession is concerned? You know, she is very much considered the woman conductor. But it's amazing to see how many more women conductors and are now starting to be present in this field. And that matters.

It matters greatly, you know, and I think for me being african-american and hispanic i mean for me that's important because especially with memphis being predominantly an african african-american community i feel like it is my responsibility to be representation for this community and for other communities just like marin is a huge representation for me being a woman yeah yeah i don't know whether you watch what's the American version of our dancing show? Is it Dancing with the Stars in America? It is. Yes, it is. Well, here we have Strictly Come Dancing.

And this week, one of the contestants did dance to a Metallica track. Oh, my God, yes. Yes. The comedian Bill Bailey. He's extraordinary. It was extraordinary. He's through to the final, I should say. You've got a bit of a thing for Metallica too. Can you explain why people love Metallica? You know, it's not just Metallica.

So I love death metal and I love heavy metal alternative, like just rock and roll in general. And I mean, Metallica is just one of those bands where they have been around for such a long time and their music is infectious. And even the writing and the lyrical content it's just amazing i'm sorry the lyrical content of death metal okay can you quote something that i'm likely to be moved by that's a challenge isn't it yeah first thing in the morning in memphis um it's like uh but i what i love

about this i'm not going to put you on the spot what i love is just that you're you're totally catholic music tastes it's all music and it there's there's something for everybody out there no exactly you know but i love the way you said that it's all music and i think the most important thing is if it touches you that's the only thing that matters oh that's it you can't i can't better that kalina lovely to talk to you and congratulations on your achievement. Thank you very much. Thank you. Take care of yourself.

That is Kalina Bovell. And I should say that she is conducting Chinike, the orchestra, in A Man Who Dreamed at the South Bank Centre's Royal Festival Hall. It streams tonight on YouTube at 7.30pm. That sounds well worth seeking out. Now, all families have got secrets. Back in 2018, we asked listeners to tell us some of their stories. And the one you're about to hear is Moira, who wanted to talk to us about a secret that really has affected her life.

She's in her late 50s now. She grew up an only child with her parents in Swansea. Our reporter, Jo Morris, asked her when the story began. I think it begins probably when I was born because I think that my mum's illness happened pretty soon after I arrived. It was a bit sad, really. I've just always lived with it. I've never really spoken to anyone about it.

Some of the things I'll be telling you today I've never said to anybody. Why have you never told anyone? Just because it's never felt proper to. So tell me a bit about your family set up. Oh! I think my father was really really deeply conventional very conservative small c conservative and my mum was definitely not but they were quite different I think my mum was

quite wacky and outgoing. Did you feel like there was a secret? Yes, because there was one. And I knew that there was a secret, and I kind of knew, almost knew what it was. I just didn't have a name for it. Even by five or six, I was very, very aware of things I was allowed to say around this subject. One thing that came to mind, actually, that I have not thought about since I was a kid, but happened when I was in infant school, and I have never told anyone this,

I must have been pulled out of class and taken to the headmistress's office, and there was somebody there who I can't remember, but there was somebody somebody there and I remember the headmistress put me on her knee and they were asking me questions about my home was I happy at home and those sorts of questions I mean I was a tiny kid I can hardly remember now but even at that age I knew not to say anything about it and also I never tell my parents. So I was being questioned I think by somebody from social services if such a thing existed in 1960 whatever it would have been. I knew why they were asking me these questions. I wasn't like an innocent kid just giving the right answer. I was definitely aware why they were asking me these questions. They knew something about my home circumstances which weren't quite normal or you know whatever.

So I always knew that my mum took medication, had an injection, took tablets, that sort of thing and yet I had never been told but even at that age I was aware of it. I was aware that it was something that I shouldn't talk about and I was also aware that it'd be a really bad thing to mention it to my parents so I just dealt with it I told them what I thought they would kind of want to hear which was I'm happy which was true you know which was true I wasn't unhappy I wasn't frightened. So this this young age you're being trained to keep a secret? Yeah yeah without saying you must keep this a secret I knew that you must keep it a secret. It would have been a shame a shaming thing for our family to have acknowledged which is quite quite a big thing, really, isn't it? That something that somebody can't help, it's an illness,

it just happens to be a mental illness. I knew that my mum was not suffering from, you know, being a bit nervy. And I knew it was serious. Why does that make you laugh when you say that? Well, because it's just such a ridiculous catch-all I'm not sure it really even means anything. Suffering with her nerves nobody ever referred to it as what it was and my mum Bletta who was actually probably the most open of all the people involved I think she'd kind of almost been trained not to say it as well.

Did your parents ever explain your mum's condition to you? Did they ever sit you down and say, OK? Never. It did not have a name until my mum's psychiatrist, who was then actually looking after her for dementia in her 70s referred to a historical diagnosis of schizophrenia at which point it was out and my father well he very nearly fell off his chair but that was the first time it was mentioned and it had never been discussed before and funny enough it was never talked about after

that either we didn't talk about it even after the word had been uttered by the psychiatrist you didn't come out of the meeting and then say to your dad well so this schizophrenia then no never no I kind of wish I had but by that stage we had 40 years worth of not talking about it. Why do you wish you had said something? I wish I'd known what my mum went through. I wish I had a greater understanding of the illness and what it did to her. I mean, I saw some things that I knew were odd, like our apparently being related to minor royalty,

Prince Michael of Kent. Name check. Is that what she used to say? Yes. And I knew, even as a tiny child, that that was just wrong, but I just went with it. So I knew she had delusions. At the time, I just knew that it was a bit odd

and definitely not right. I never had a rebellious moment where I thought, right, I'm 15 now and I must know what's going on or tell me what's going on. I think my mother would have liked to talk about it, but my father was so adamant that we weren't going to talk about it would have liked to talk about it, but my father was so adamant that we weren't going to talk about it that she didn't talk about it either. We're much more open about it now. We're probably not in the absolute best place even now, but at least,

at least I feel I can talk openly, you know, and say my mum had schizophrenia. When we were kids, probably quite little kids, playing, you know, playing out in the street. And I think I must have had an argument with another child who just came back to me and said, Your mother's mental. It's the time I remember thinking that it wasn't just our secret. Or that actually it wasn't a secret and that we hadn't contained it in our household. It's an impressive ambition to try and keep it secret

that somebody's got schizophrenia in the actual house where you're living. I think it must have been quite frightening for her, actually, now that I do know a little bit more about it. I think things like having delusions, hearing voices, and some of the treatment, like the electric shock treatment and that sort of thing, was really quite brutal. Undoubtedly she was ill and she had some awful times but she made the most of her life. I find it really hard to wish that she was

anything other than what she was because she was great. If you could tell your mum now that you knew the secret what would you say to her it's all right and i'm interested in it and you're a great mum whatever yeah that's what i'd say well that is the voice of moira talking to our reporter joe morris that was absolutely fascinating that expression trouble with her nerves was one I used to hear quite a lot as well. That was something people said back in the 70s. It does seem a lifetime ago now. If you want to hear more Family Secrets, go into any

search engine and just put in Family Secrets Woman's Hour and some more experiences will come up and we'll also revisit that topic next year on the programme. Now let's go to the Power List 2020 and talk fashion and sustainable fashion. Sophia Mini, MBE, is number 28 on the list for her pioneering work in making fashion more sustainable. She's the founder of Peopletree and now works for an organisation

called Real Sustainability. We'll also talk to the influencer Venetia Lamanna and the founder of By Rotation, Ishita Cabra-Davis. They're lined up waiting to talk. Let's go first of all to Sophia. Good morning to you, Sophia. How are you today? Oh, very well. It's Safia. Safia, I do apologise. How are you anyway? Yes, extremely well. Thanks, Dave. Excellent. OK, now, Safia, I really want to know exactly what made you get into this world, because it wasn't where you started, was it? You were doing something else completely at the beginning. Well, take us back to the 1990s.

Oh, well, actually the 80s. Yes, I battled. So my background is in advertising and publishing. felt deeply upset and demoralized being part of the advertising industry and understanding that you know that we had a truly dysfunctional economic system and and most of what we were being promoted was was actually not the stuff that made us happy so I think you know very much at the age of 17 when I started in publishing wanting to spend as much of my disposable income as possible on things that fitted with my values, which were very much about human rights and protecting the planet. So yes, I mean, it was very much thinking, well, you know, as a young woman at

the time, you know, how could I buy fashion and be sure that people weren't being exploited? How could I buy something and be sure that... Sure. And how could I buy something be sure that sure and how could you buy affordable fashion and be sure presumably you couldn't could you well I guess back in the day I was working very near Carnaby Street so it was it was charity stores all the way you know Oxfam and then they had fantastic range of the beginnings of fair trade foods as well and lots of lovely publications about social justice and environmental issues. So that really helped a lot. And other people around you, did they think your ideas, your commitment was a bit odd or did you garner a lot of support back then?

Well, I started PeopleTree in Japan nearly 30 years ago. And I remember when we'd set up the first global organic textile standards supply chain, which was also fair trade. So this was a first for the fashion industry. And I remember having an interview with the Nikkei Shimbun, the biggest business newspaper, who said, well, what is the point?

You're not eating a dress, so why produce it organically? So there was a total lack of systemic thinking about how we grow things and the pollution and how that might impact the life of the farmer and then the communities around if it's a factory in terms of the diethyl pollution, etc. Okay, so fast forward to 2020. And presumably, you wouldn't encounter that sort of attitude today because companies, big companies, huge organisations have got to be highly sensitive these days, haven't they? Well, indeed, yes. I mean, their consumers and also their employees have been putting the pressure on them for the last 10 years or more.

And I think last year, 2019, was very much a watershed where the climate and ecological and social emergency became front of mind. We've had huge pressure on businesses as one of your first news items made clear that even large corporations are looking at how they can transition to net zero, not by 2050, but by 2030 or the latest by 2040. Unfortunately, it's been slower for fashion, I must say. But there's also, of course, the issues around biodiversity loss. And so we're hoping that the CEE bill, which Business Declares, an organisation that I'm working with, are also very heavily promoting. Right. But fashion at the moment still does a lot of damage. What do you say? Yes?

Incredible damage. You know, it's the second most polluting industry in the world you know if one looks at the pollution created by in terms of uh the the the synthetic fertilizers um the the synthetic microfibers that bleed from more than 70 80 percent of the synthetic materials that are used. What we need to do is we need to transition to 100% natural, organic, regeneratively produced microfibre, sorry, fibres, but in a way that generates the most value addition to farmers, artisans and tailors. Right. So to try to get it down to people's lives, I guess, that would be possible. And people, particularly women, could still be employed, could still earn a decent wage in reasonable conditions. And people like me, who are fortunate enough to have a few pounds occasionally to spend on clothes, will be able to get stuff we want. Yes, absolutely. I mean, we need to look at how we reduce production by,

some would argue, as much as 70%. So I think most certainly if we're buying new, we should be looking at fair trade, we should be looking at organically and regeneratively produced, maybe craft and hand weaving. And all of these we've proven with the PeopleTree model actually can go to scale. So we could do this um but it does mean really reducing we have 10 years worth of clothing on the planet right now so really excited to hear more about some of these rental models right well yes talking about yeah thank you for moving me on that was brilliant um ashita cabra

davis is the founder of by rotation so ashita um you are somebody who it's a platform is it where people can rent clothes for important occasions that's correct jane so essentially people can lend and rent their own wardrobe with each other so very similar to airbnb or if people are familiar with depop so it's an app that you can download for free and therefore you're sharing what you already own. So really the emphasis is on using what you already have and therefore higher quality items as well. Okay without being picky how might the item get to me? So essentially you can either meet in person or you can exchange items via Royal Mail or we have a light touch partnership with an on-demand courier,

but that's within London. But really, we do have a lot of users across the nation already. You know, I'm usually mailing out items to things in Glasgow and Edinburgh, and we're doing this through Royal Mail Tract. And that's worked out really well for us. And it's a great way to sort of...

Yeah, but isn't there an environmental cost to that? It's definitely much lower than producing a new item and buying something that's fast fashion. I think the main thing that we're really combating is getting people not to buy one off items just for a weekend or, you know, for going out on a Friday night. And that actually is the model for many young women. I think they might be tempted to pop into one of the shops. There are so many I could name all of them, but be tempted to pop into one of the shops. There are so many, I could name all of them,

but we don't want to take up the time. Buy something for, let's be honest, perhaps... Payday or something. Yeah, payday, 40 quid, 45 quid. And you've got something for your big night out. But you're saying,

basically, Ishita, don't do that if you can. Yeah, so we're saying instead of going to one of these stores that we won't mention, you can end up spending lesser amounts, say 2020, £30, to rent a higher quality item from a brand that you might actually admire and wish to actually purchase by borrowing it off someone else in the country. Okay. Influencer Venetia Lamarna, good morning to you, Venetia. What do you think about that? Good morning. Yeah, I think it's a really, really amazing idea. I'm a big fan of rental sites. I think we should be doing whatever we can to make the most of what we already have. We know that there are 7.6 billion people in the world,

yet we produce 150 billion garments each year, 30% of which are never sold. So it's all about making the most of what we already have because we already have enough clothes in the world. But Venetia, even I wouldn't, I'm no shopaholic, but the thrill of the new, frankly, how do you get people, how do you wean people off that? Hey, listen, I am talking as a recovering fast fashion addict. I love the dopamine hit of something new, But I actually get the same dopamine hit when I look at a resale site or when I look at a rental site. You still get the arrival of something new. It's just got a slightly lower carbon footprint, for want of a

better phrase. So do you think young women are driving a change in attitudes here? Because I know with my own offspring, Depop is huge with them but then they will also go out and get something from or order online on my debit card something from other stores I again suppliers I won't name but we all know who they are they offer a lot of very cheap stuff so it seems to me young women are having trying to have the best of both worlds here yeah I think so I mean I think Gen Z are definitely kind of fueling resale apps. Currently, Depop has 15 million users, which is a lot. However, I did read a really, really interesting stat

from Retail Times recently that said that Brits are still found to be 98% more likely to search for buy now, pay later than second-hand clothing which i guess is probably potentially what your kids are doing too and i think i mean i wonder whether that is really something that might worry you uh sapphire what do you say about that well it it does it does worry me but i think it is it is about really cutting the production impact of of new products at the same time. So, you know, we need all of these initiatives.

And I am excited that younger people are buying more on Depop and eBay and the equivalent. But, you know, we have to live within our planetary boundaries and respect scarce natural resources. And, you know, we are going to have to see an enormous shift in how the fashion industry works with both its suppliers and the way really that it starts to think much more systemically in creating a much more long-term vision, a much more collaborative approach, because we can't be running businesses in the linear way that we've been doing. You know, we're just...

When people say, I don't really understand that, linear, what does it mean? Well, what it means is really not understanding the true impact of our activity. So we've been producing things without really counting the true cost. I think the True Cost movie did a really, really fantastic job. And anybody here in the audience that wants to know more about the true cost. I think the true cost movie did a really, really fantastic job. And anybody here in the audience that wants to know more about the true cost of fashion, please have watched that wonderful documentary. So basically, we've been treating the planet as though water is free, that we can pollute, we can strip the soils of their fertility, we can damage, in fact, we can pollute the farming areas around us with dye factories and totally ignore the externalities of any business, not just fashion.

So I think what we're doing now is we're shifting towards a new paradigm, a systems thinking approach to doing business. And it's very exciting. And it's very exciting for leaders to really be able to wake up and to understand that it's OK. And we have the finance industry also, that we're looking at the ESGs, which are environment, social and governance, and starting to hold business senior management teams accountable.

Ultimately, I suppose investors won't put their money where, frankly, questions are going to be asked and where consumers might have doubts about the organisation involved. So aren't they driving all this or will they drive it in the future? Well, I think it's come, you're absolutely right, Jane, it's come from very, very many different places. And I think last year was really an awakening of that, where investors were putting pressure.

We saw from Legal & General to Aviva to other big banks who started to realise that actually their customers and their big pension fund owners actually want to see them investing in something that looks much more sustainable. So we're not there yet, Jane. actually want to see them investing in something that looks much more sustainable. So, you know, we're not, you know, we're not there yet, Jane, it's going to take a while. But the shift in thinking in 2020 has been absolutely incredible. And we will see a regenerative way of making fashion, we will see a regenerative product. But in the meantime, we really don't

need to be buying new unless it's made in a way that has the lightest environmental impact and it has the biggest social impact. That is Safia Mini. And you also heard in that conversation from Venetia Lamanna, the influencer and Ashita Cabra-Davis, who's founded that interesting organisation where you can rent clothes. It's called Buy Rotation. Might be worth looking up if you're interested in doing it too. Melanie says, I've been listening to your item on fashion. I made a new year resolution in 2015 not to buy any new clothes or shoes for the year.

I did allow myself underwear as an exception. I saved a small fortune and I'm much more thoughtful about what I buy and when. Okay, so it sounds like she is now buying clothes again, but perhaps not in the quantity. I suppose the only, well, yeah, it's the thrill of the new that would stop me from making that vow. And also, I guess my shape would change and I'd need to buy new stuff out of necessity. But anyway, you can join in on this. Just let us know what you think. Another listener says it does seem a bit redundant to be discussing all this for nights out in particular, especially out here in the sticks.

Yes, that's from Helen. But Helen, we trade on optimism here. And I'm convinced that nights out will resume post. Well, let's be optimistic. Well, in the springtime, she said vaguely. From Val, the amount of waste from fashion, I think it's phenomenal and most of it ends up in landfill. I have the stats, but would need more time to dig them out. In Stroud, we had a recycled fashion show and it was fun. Some items were quite preposterous. Others were brilliant. My husband wore these jeans

amongst other things. I enclose a photo but they look better on the body. Well actually I can't see the photo so I'll just use my imagination. Our shopping bags are all cut down from other items and the possibilities are endless. It doesn't take too much time, it actually saves trips out to go shopping. We've got a shop in our local small town which specialises in upcycling clothes and household goods. So that's Stroud leading the way there. And from Emily, we can learn to value better quality and be satisfied with less, but better and longer lasting.

Yeah, I guess that ultimately is what we should all be aiming at. Now, I really enjoyed talking to the conductor, Kalina, on the programme today. It is interesting. I'm sure I've said this before. I'm not a massive fan of classical music and I really don't know, disgracefully, I don't know very much about it. But I love talking to classical musicians and people like Kalina, who's a conductor. They're just so interesting. They've always got such a zest for life, I guess, because they're doing something they really love. And a lot of people have contacted me to point out that I was disparaging about death metal. And this is important from Madge. Metallica isn't death metal. Point of order there. OK, right. That's me told um kate just listening to your

guest being asked to quote moving lyrics from metallica well can i just give you something from their song nothing else matters i'll just do a couple of lines here so close no matter how far couldn't be much more from the heart forever trusting who we are and nothing else matters. Right. That's very nice. And this is from Indian Skimmer. Being unnecessarily disparaging about death metal on Woman's Hour this morning on the basis of, I suspect, not a lot of knowledge of the subject. Well, of course, Indian Skimmer, you have no idea how I spend my downtime.

I mean, I could be fiddling about with a bread maker or I could be listening to a great deal of death metal you should never ever judge people by the sound of their voices okay let's leave it there let's park it for today because we've got a lot to do at the hour of woman today join us tomorrow morning well I'm really looking forward to this we're talking to a food historian

called Penn Vogler and I've been reliably informed that she is excellent, she's written a book called Scoff a history of food and class or class in Britain and the book effectively puts our eating habits under a microscope and reveals how they are loaded with centuries

of prejudice around class Penn says we should spend less time scoffing at other people's eating habits and more time thinking about how everybody deserves access to decent food. So that's tomorrow on the programme. And I think she's onto something there because we do judge, don't we?

We're all too eager to judge what other people do and what they serve up at home. There'll also be a conversation about gender bias issues in education. So that's tomorrow. Pitch in as and when at BBC Women's Hour on social media. You can email us via the website. Thank you very much for listening today. Hello, Louis Theroux here. And I just wanted to hijack this podcast to tell you that I'm back with another series of my podcast, Grounded with Louis Theroux. In case you hadn't noticed, COVID hasn't gone away, and because of travel restrictions, neither have I. So I've rounded up the likes of Michaela Cole, Frankie Boyle, Oliver Stone, Sia, and FKA Twigs for another set of eclectic and thought-provoking conversations.

Yes, I'm still grounded with me, Louis Theroux, available on BBC Sounds. I'm Sarah Trelevan, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who's faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy.

And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.