Woman's Hour - Kamala Harris and 'brat summer', Holocaust documentary, Comedian Sashi Perera

Episode Date: July 24, 2024

Kamala Harris’ presidential campaign has been inspired by Charli XCX and her recent album release, brat. The link between the two is all over social media – but what does it all mean? Nuala McGovern is joined by former Editor-in-Chief of Vice and co-host of the Good Bad Billionaire podcast on BBC World Service to explain the trend, and columnist for The Times, Alice Thomson on Kamala Harris’ appeal to women.A new film, The Commandant’s Shadow, follows Hans Jürgen Höss, the 87-year-old son of Rudolf Höss, the camp commandant of Auschwitz who masterminded the murder of more than a million Jews. While Hans enjoyed a happy childhood playing with many toys in the family villa, Anita Lasker-Wallfisch played cello in the orchestra to survive the notorious concentration camp. Eight decades later, the two come face-to-face, together with their children, Kai Höss and Maya Lasker-Wallfisch. Anita and Maya join Nuala to tell their story.A new study has found that women in Scotland have reached a landmark moment in business - with the number of female entrepreneurs matching the number of men for the first time. Nuala is joined by primary school teacher turned tech entrepreneur Genna Masterton who runs a business in Glasgow.Former refugee lawyer turned comedian Sashi Perera joins Nuala to discuss who we choose as our emergency contacts and her new stand-up show, Boundaries. A new malaria vaccine, licenced for children five months and older, began its roll out in the Ivory Coast last week. Nuala is joined by Dr Mehreen Datoo, who played a pivotal role in the vaccine’s development, after her own experience of malaria almost took her life. Presenter: Nuala McGovern Producer: Emma Pearce

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2. And of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme. Peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Nuala McGovern and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Just to say that for rights reasons, the music in the original radio broadcast has been removed for this podcast. Hello and welcome to Woman's Hour. Anita Lasker-Walfish is 99 years old and a Holocaust survivor. I'm going to be speaking to Anita and her daughter Maya about why they decided to meet with the family of the commandant of the Auschwitz concentration camp where over a million people were killed.

It is an extraordinary story. And Anita's history is a harrowing reminder of the vast loss of life that took place at that time. I have another guest this hour that is hoping to save millions of lives in the coming decades with a new malaria vaccine that she helped create. I'll be speaking to Dr. Mayring Datu

from Oxford University. We'll also be in Scotland as new analysis shows women are starting and running new businesses at virtually the same rate as men. That's for the very first time there. And a question for you this morning. Who is your emergency contact?

Is it your romantic partner? Your best friend? Your parent? A sibling? Someone else? Is it a reciprocal arrangement with that person? Well, one of my guests today is the comedian Sasha Pereira. And she was surprised

when her husband did not have her down as the one to call. Have you ever been surprised in that way? I want to hear. You can text the programme 84844 on social media. We're at BBC Woman's Hour or you can email us through our website

for WhatsApp, voice note or a message. That number is 03700 100 444. I'm looking forward to speaking to Sashie a little bit later about how that all came out in the wash. I believe it was during her honeymoon. How did that go? But let us turn to the United States, where the Vice President Kamala Harris has gone on the offensive

against Donald Trump in the first rally of her White House campaign. So portraying November's election by her as a choice between a former prosecutor and a convicted felon. And it comes after she secured the support of a majority of Democratic delegates, paving the way for her to become the party's nominee. That will be next month at the convention where it will be ratified. And as VP Harris outlined her plans, her campaign also kicked up a notch online. Maybe you've seen the hashtag Brat Summer in your social media feeds. Well, whether you have or whether you haven't, it's related to Charlie XCX, a British pop star whose latest album, Brat, has not only taken the charts

by storm, but US politics too. All will be explained. Kamala Harris's campaign has fully embraced the movement Bratt Summer, with some saying it could encourage more women to vote. What does it all mean? Earlier, I spoke to Zing Seng, a former editor-in-chief of Vice and co-host of the Good Bad Billionaire podcast on the BBC World Service. I asked Zing to explain. So Brat Summer is basically a trend inspired by an artist called Charlie XCX. She's a kind of British club pop musician. Her album Brat was released in June. And basically Brat, the album is all about a kind of girl, as she puts it, who is a little bit messy and says dumb things sometimes and has a breakdown, but parties through it.

You know, it's this kind of album that's very honest and blunt and a little bit volatile about being a party girl. And through a kind of delightful confluence of good timing and events that could really only have happened on the Internet, Kamala Harris has now become synonymous with Charlie XCX's album, just through the power of memes alone. And particularly, I suppose, that lime green colour from the album? Yeah, so the album cover has a really iconic look. It's just lime green with the word Bratton or lowercase on it.

You'll have seen it on Flags in Glastonbury. You know, it's been the source of a lot of merchandising. And Kamala Harris's Twitter HQ or XHQ has now adopted that branding. So tell us a little bit for those that haven't had their feeds inundated with Brat Summer. What is making the rounds? around. So the thing that seems to be happening the most are remixes where Kamala Harris's now quite viral speech about her mother scolding her for thinking that she just fell out of a coconut tree. That track has now been remixed into several different tracks from the Brat album. And I might just interrupt for one moment there. That particular clip, Kamala Harris was trying to get across that her mother says, you know, you need to know the context of where you are, the people who came before

you to get you to this point. Yes, exactly. And then her mother scolds her and tells her you think you just fell out of a coconut tree. Which in itself I think is quite a meme worthy line. It's definitely one that was already going viral before it kind of crossed over with

Brat Summer and began to sneak into all these Charlie XCX remixes. Do you think that this will make a difference to younger voters? Oh, I think that's an interesting, it's an interesting proposition. I think what it's done is inject a lot more youthful energy into the Democrats presidential campaign. And I think it is getting a lot of traction online. You know, we saw with the UK election that there were some politicians, including people like Nigel Farage, who were very good at kind of harnessing online excitement at using TikTok and social media to kind of turbocharge their campaign. Now, you know, you can argue whether

or not, you know, reform really benefited in terms of vote share or the number of MPs it gained as a result of TikTok. I think maybe we're too early on in TikTok's relationship and social media's relationship with memes and the political process to really kind of viral organic excitement can contribute towards campaigns and their ability to kind of draw support to get publicity and to get positive PR because if you remember you know just maybe 10 days ago there wasn't this much excitement there wasn't this much kind of interest in what the Democrats were doing it was all about whether Joe Biden would drop out or not which is you know not exactly positive PR but now with kind of Brad Summer and Kamala Harris, it does feel like there's a new conversation online about the Democrats campaign. And we do know the social media has taken down politicians previously as well. Do you

think this is gendered in any way? I mean, it's an interesting question, because if you flip it on one hand and you say, if Kamala Harris was a male VP, would they have been able to kind of harness the power of Brat Summer? And I actually think the answer is no. I think part of the reason why there is this crossover between Kamala Harris and Charlie Exeix is because they're both women. And I think is because, you know, the kind of perception of Kamala Harris, at least before she became the Democrat nominee, is of someone who occasionally said quite random things, who laughed a lot, who was, you know, a little bit more joyful than your average kind of VP.

So I think maybe in that sense, yes, there is a gender element to it. But I don't think it's necessarily one based in any kind of sexism. Seng Seng, who is the former editor-in-chief of Vice and co-host of the Good Bad Billionaire podcast, which you can find on the BBC World Service. I want to turn to Alice Thompson next, columnist for The Times, who's written about social media and Kamala Harris. Good to have you with us, Alice. You know, I just saw, which came across our wires, that the Harris campaign as of Tuesday evening has raised 126 million dollars since the endorsement which I was just working out was just a couple of days which is that has happened so

that's kind of the money side of it but I'm curious about your thoughts when it comes to gender because you've been writing in the times today that the campaign is playing on her feminine attributes explain that a little bit further for our listeners who haven't read it. So both sides really actually and it's very much playing out for her in that a little bit further for our listeners who haven't read it. So both sides, really, actually. And it's very much playing out for her in that a lot of women have joined her campaign. And that is a lot of the young. It's actually, as you've said,

it's Charlie XCX, that there's a lot of, you know, Kamala is brat and that's massive for the young. And Drew Barrymore said, we want a Mamala for the nation. And you've got all these young celebrity women

piling in behind her and all the memes and the coconuts. And that's everywhere. So my children are totally obsessed by her already. It's only been a few days. You've got Swifties for Harris. You've got all that side of it. And actually, you've got older women as well. And you've got a lot of – there's a group of billionaire women who've come together who are trying to pay for her campaign.

So she's got a lot of females behind her. And that is because they've had 45 male presidents. So, you know, there is an element of why there's never been, you know, a female president before in America. But on the other side, you've also got the Trump supporters who see her sex and gender as being a massive disadvantage to her and that they think that there'll be a lot of men who won't vote for her because she's a woman.

So it's already become about the fact that she's a woman more than anything else and I was really writing saying in the end actually it's going to be about economics for her and about her policies more than about her being a woman but but we're not going to hear about any of those because it's so much at the moment about because she is a woman. But do you think this is because she has just entered the race and we were hearing from Zing there about this energy that she was talking about, that basically breathing new life, perhaps into this election campaign that has been going on for years. She probably, do you think, need to move pretty quickly on to specifics? I mean, she did lay them out, though. I'm just thinking through at that rally that she was doing her first time speaking about the campaign.

She basically is saying she's going to continue a lot of Mr Biden's policies. Yes, and I think as vice president, it's incredibly difficult because you're never really supposed to say very much. And it's a really difficult

sort of semi role. And in a way, you are like the sort of ribbon cutter in chief that you're doing quite a lot of the kind of stuff that our royals do, actually. And you don't get to say what you think. But she did have immigration and she messed that up. So some of her policy our royals do, actually. And you don't get to say what you think. But she did have immigration, and she messed that up.

So some of her policy, she hasn't really worked out yet. And we're not 100% sure what she thinks, really, on foreign policy. She hasn't travelled that much until she became vice president. So she will have to spell that out. I think what I find interesting is in Britain, when we had our first female prime minister, it was all about her sex. And then that morphed, really. The more female prime ministers we've had,

the less it's been about whether they're male or female and more about what their policies are and are they effective. You know, what we are seeing, a lot of the stuff online for Kamala Harris as Zing was outlining, but also you've probably seen, as some of my listeners might have as well,

that there is a clip doing the rounds. It's Donald Trump's running mate, J.D. Vance, from an interview in 2021. He said that women like Kamala Harris who haven't had children are, and I quote, childless cat ladies who are miserable in their own lives

and have no direct stake in America. How do you think that might play? Well, I think that's going to galvanise, you know, very much the liberals as well. But, you know, women who haven't had children, it's it happened in Britain when, you know, Theresa May was accused of not having children.

I think it's incredibly divisive and it's exactly what will rally women in the same way actually that I think the abortion issues, which aren't as big here, really will rally women in America. And I think Kamala Harris is very good on that, that she's made it very clear where she stands on abortion and she's very much pro women's rights. And so I think that that will make a difference, actually. And I think the idea that just because, you know, you, you know, you're single, and when she's not even single, actually,

that you're married, but you don't have children. She has stepchildren. Yes. And she's obviously great with her stepchildren, and they adore her. And they've been at a lot of her campaign and rallies, they are there. So, you know, she sounds like she's a great, great stepchildren and they adore her and they've been at a lot of her campaign and rallies they are there so you know she sounds like she's a great great stepmom yes it is interesting how the question of children continues to raise its head as somebody i've seen a couple of people say this that as far as they know there's been no president in the white house that has actually given birth so far um but let me turn as well, because you're talking about young voters as Zing did as well. And I suppose this social media presence

that she has. There was an increase between 2016 and 2020 by 11%, the 18 to 29 year olds. Tufts University did research on that. They only had data on 41 states, might I add. But do you think they can be trusted

to turn out just because she's having a moment on social media? Well, that's what we don't know is that whether TikTok then relates to votes. And in Britain, it didn't that much. I mean, Nigel Farage was quite good, weirdly, on TikTok. And that didn't relate in the end to that many younger voters voting for reform.

So I just, you can't tell. But I think she has got this momentum behind her, which is fascinating because it's been so stuck with these two very elderly men, really. And she's 59, but she seems young in comparison, Kamala Harris. So I just wonder whether she will galvanise

that younger vote. And it'd be interesting to see if she can do it because it will be the first election that's going to be played out on social media to that extent. What I'm quite enjoying, and I think many people are, is that a woman to be played out on social media to that extent. What I'm quite enjoying and I think many people are is that a woman in her 50s

by the media is now be considered young. Yeah, well I'm thrilled because I'm 57. There you go. We're in the club. It's so good to have you on Alice. Thank you so much

and Alice has a piece today taking a look at all these issues that we have been discussing this morning on Woman's Hour. A new film, The Commandant's Shadow, follows Hans-Jürgen Huss, the 87-year-old son of Rudolf Huss, the camp commandant of Auschwitz,

who masterminded the murder of more than a million Jews. The life of Huss and his family was recently fictionalised in the Academy Award-winning film The Zone of Interest. Now the Commandant's Shadow tells the story of some of the real people who lived on the other side of the wall at Hus' concentration camp. While Hans Hus enjoyed a happy childhood playing with many toys

in the family villa at Auschwitz, Anita Lasker-Walfisch was playing the cello in order to survive the notorious concentration camp. Eight decades later, the two came face to face together with their children, Kai Hus and Maja Lasker-Walfisch. Anita and Maja, join me now. You're both so welcome to Woman's Hour. Thank you for coming on the programme and to tell us a little bit more about this extraordinary film. Anita, why did you want to do it? I just did it.

I didn't particularly look for it. I mean, it just happened. It just happened. Well, I'll tell you, watching it, it's so compelling and gripping. Quite difficult almost to take in all that has happened to you in your long life. You're 99 now as well. I probably should tell our listeners that. Just a remarkable woman that

you are. Tell me a little about your childhood in Germany before the war. I had a very happy childhood before 1933. And then everything started going wrong. I didn't even know that I was Jewish until somebody actually spattered me in the street. And, you know, yeah, it happened suddenly in 1933. I was eight years old then. Your father had decided that he didn't want to leave Germany. I think some of your friends and neighbours had decided to.

But at one point then, your parents were taken away. My father was convinced that the Germans can't be that stupid. He had great faith in people's intelligence and he was wrong. And you do reiterate that as well, the stupidity that was just unimaginable as you said it. But you are a cellist, you were a founder member of the English Chamber Orchestra

and you talk about it was your cello that saved you. Can you tell us a little bit about what happened after your parents were taken away? I'll try to make it as short as possible. It so happened when I eventually, after Great Odyssey arrived in Auschwitz, I found out that there was a, I can't call it an orchestra, a band there,

happened to not have a cello at the moment. And I seem to have arrived at the right moment. So I was very lucky, very lucky. All the time I was lucky. And then you were playing. I was like, why would that band be there? But it was to entertain the soldiers? No, our job was really to play for the people who marched out

to work in the factories that surround Auschwitz. We played marches for the people to walk out in the morning and we did the same in the evening. That was our basic job. Your parents were not at Auschwitz. They were taken to the east, is my understanding, and they were killed by the Nazis. There's not a lot of information. But I want to turn to you, Maya. Growing up, were you aware of what happened to your mother, Anita, and also to her parents? I absolutely was not aware on any conscious level, but I certainly always had a sense of knowing there was something very, very wrong.

And that there was no other family that resembled ours. Because growing up in London, as I did, I was surrounded by people. Well, I never came across, as I said, any kind of relatable families. So I knew that we were different and I knew it wasn't a good thing to be different. And of course, children want to be the same as each other. So that was something that completely escaped me. But conscious knowing didn't happen until much much much later because my mother didn't talk about it. Anita why did you not talk about it? How can you talk about it? You know we actually we weren't asked I mean I hear that often you never told us anything, but I mean, you never asked.

It's not really a topic of conversation, you know. But are you talking about when people, when you first arrived? It's different to why you didn't tell my brother and I different reasons. It's difficult to talk about it. Tell me, what was it like in Auschwitz? Of course. You did come to England. You very much settled there, it seems, Anita. Yeah, absolutely. And you grew up also, Maya, as you mentioned, in the UK. But you talk about this difference. And I know you are a psychotherapist. You have studied intergenerational trauma. And the film was inspired by a book you wrote in Germany five years ago. How would you say that intergenerational trauma manifested? Because I know you say it was different, but can you be specific about what that feeling was or indeed the actions? Well, for me, obviously I can speak very specifically about my own experience,

but it was the most awful feeling of unbelonging and otherness, which was profoundly isolating and lonely. So what it looked like and what it felt like was that I was always on the outside of everything. For whatever reason, the one thing that was relatable and a connection within my family, those, my parents and my brother was music. And that was their collective experience, which I wasn't part of. So it's an experience of being, as I've already said, completely alone and bewildered because there is no context

in which to understand what on earth you're doing here or how to do this thing called living. Because of what has happened before. Because of what's happened before, but also the horror that my mother couldn't speak about. She did not want to completely traumatize her children by answering a question like, why you have no grandparents because they lie in a mass grave shot. So my mother didn't speak of it. I know many survivors do. Is there a right way or wrong way? I just think it's different.

But not knowing does not mean not feeling and experiencing. So unconsciously, the trauma was embedded in me, I think, always. So I believe it is environmental and the epigenetic, the science of epigenetics, which was a great relief to me, shows that there is an actual cellular manifestation where something is, you know, identifiably impacted upon. So, Anita, you have heard this from Maya before, and I was very struck in the film by the line when you said you were the wrong mother for your daughter. Can you tell our listeners what you mean by that? Yeah, well, I mean by that that my sister was very interested in things that I am not interested in, like nice clothes and jewelry and all that. And I always thought that Maria would fit better to be the daughter of my sister because they had the same interests.

You know, I'm a very basic person. I don't need anything. Renata was your sister. Sorry, Anita, I interrupted you very basic person. I don't need anything. Renata was your sister. Sorry, Anita, I interrupted you. Go ahead. That was a flippant remark that I made. I thought that my daughter should be the daughter of my sister rather than mine. But it's a really interesting concept, Anita. I think this may resonate with a lot of people

about being the wrong mother for your daughter. Because it goes deeper again as you meet the family of the Commandant that they didn't choose their father or grandfather in that instance either. The family, you know, you don't get to choose right there or there. I wonder, Maya, how you're looking at that, I don't know, connections or relationship.

Do you mean specifically in relation to what mum describes as a flippant comment? Yes. Well, it's really interesting because it's not the first time my mum has said it. There have been many occasions and it's very often a question like yourself that people are very curious about. So I think I understand the context in which mum says it, although that's a fairly new, I've only recently come to understand

that's what she means. So those words without the context are very difficult to hear because you don't get to choose. And I didn't even really on a conscious level know how very different my mother was to other people's mothers, you know, or how German my mother is until I went to live in Germany. Because you wanted to live in Germany, you applied for German citizenship. And when your German passport arrived, you mentioned about being elated. And in the film, Anita also comes to visit you. But I want to talk about another visit. You went to Auschwitz with both the son of Commandant Hus,

and that is Hans, and his grandson, Kai. Anita, you declined to go back to Auschwitz, but you did meet them in your home in London. What was it like to be sitting opposite that family, having a coffee, eating some cake. It was strange, but I think it was necessary because there needs to be a sort of, I don't say understanding, but I mean, get together and confront a situation. I mean, this is all second generation stuff.

They are not guilty of anything, but they carry a terrible burden. And, I mean, that evening was very interesting. I mean, there I'm sitting in my sitting room and receive the son of the worst murderer you can imagine.

But I think it was a very good meeting. I should say for listeners as well that Commandant Huss was hanged for his crimes following the Nuremberg trial. You, Maya, went to Auschwitz, as I mentioned briefly there, with both gentlemen, with Hans and with Kai.

And you say in some perverse way, this was a gift. I think that part of the film is very difficult to watch. I can't imagine what it must have been like to go there. Well, it was a gift and I chose it. I didn't consciously making a film. I was in a process. I was in an experience, which was a very, very important experience. And the gifts are many in that I discovered, because you can't pre-plan for such a thing, obviously.

I discovered things because you can't pre-plan for such a thing, obviously, I discovered things about myself. I obviously discovered things about the horse who I was accompanying. And I also found things that I didn't know were lost in a symbolic sense. So, and it was an opportunity to be part of a process, an essential process, which is about trying, because that's all we can do, to shift a grain of sand. And I witnessed the horrendous suffering, which is worse than mine as a second generation person, to shift a grain of sand. And I witnessed the horrendous suffering, which is worse than mine as a second generation person.

You know, I didn't have to look at my grandparents' gallow. I had to look at what was a mass grave. That's awful. But they were the best and the worst come from the worst. And that is irreconcilable. Hans is an elderly man now. I think, this is just my observation, that perhaps he hadn't totally realised the horror of what his father had carried out until he went to Auschwitz. Would that be fair, Maya? Absolutely. He went as an innocent.

He had protected himself with what I would call as a psychoanalyst, a manic defence, a pathological defence, which facilitated his life till his elderly age, because obviously it was the first time. And he went in full of happy memories. He went in full of happy memories. He did not leave full of happy memories. And I probably should describe this as well, that the villa where he lived,

his father, Commandant Husser, and the wife, Hedwig, his brothers and sisters, was just a number of yards from Auschwitz. And it does question how would he not have sensed what was happening in the environment. He insisted that he didn't. I have something interesting to say about that. What happened was that, yes, his statement was he remembered nothing. But then he walked in the footsteps and he remembered. When he was in his bedroom, as you saw, I think, in the film, he remembered. So memory plays all sorts of tricks. It was able to be buried until he was in the space. And initially, they were happy memories in the sitting room, in the kitchen, whatever. But when he was in his bedroom and saw the walls, he realised, yes, I saw this and I knew what it was. Anita, you say in the film that trauma is not just on the survivor's side.

You have such a generosity of spirit that you were able to meet with them, but also understand their trauma. It's not so difficult to imagine their trauma. It must be terrible to live like that. But I mean, my desire is that we should communicate with each other, talk to each other before we kill each other. It's very simple, really. Because you also, and I want to just get this point from you, Anita, a number of times through the film, you talk about anti-Semitism now.

You talk about a young boy, if he's wearing the skull cap or the kippah, that he may not be safe walking down the street in certain places. Unfortunately, that is true. Anti-Semitism, it didn't take long for it to come out to the open again as if people were just waiting. And everything that happened in Israel was so absolutely dreadful that I don't even want to think about it. What sparked all this terrible anti-S Why? What's the matter with the Jews? You know, Jews have been around forever. And, you know, my great wish would be there should be a museum about Jewish history, that we understand why are there Jews all over the world? Maybe they've been thrown out of their country thousands of years ago. Jews all over the world.

Why kill them? I mean, you cannot like them, but don't murder them. Anita, a remarkable woman, 99 years of age, although hard to believe as we speak to you. The film is The Commandant's Shadow and Maya is her daughter. I want to thank both of you for coming on for our conversation. Maya and Anita Lasker-Valfish. And you will be able to see that particular movie when it comes to selected cinemas this week. And it'll be on Sky later in August.

I want to turn to a new study that has found that women in Scotland have reached a landmark moment in business with the number of female entrepreneurs matching the number of men for the first time. The Global Entrepreneurship Monitor report compiled by the University of Edinburgh, Glasgow and Strathclyde found 8.6% of working age women in Scotland were running or setting up a new business in 2023 compared with 9.8% of men, something the report describes as a statistical parity. Well, joining me right now is primary school teacher turned tech entrepreneur, Jenna Masterson, and runs a business in Glasgow. Welcome, Jenna.

You were a primary school teacher. What led you into business and what business do you do? Good morning. Thanks for having me. Yes, so my startup is called Kinoro and it was born out of frustrations during my time as a primary teacher and my own lived experience in the early years of knowing how important

emotional regulation skills and parenting skills, language development is to close the skill readiness gap and what I developed wasn't scalable until I joined the government's tech scaler initiative and realised that myself as a non-technical founder could become a tech entrepreneur.

And so you did, but it is interesting. You talked about an initiative there by the government that seemed to kind of give you that push into it. How did you find the process? I mean, I've spoken to female entrepreneurs before that have often said it's so hard to get the investment compared to men. This study

seems to, or analysis, seems to contradict that. How was it for you? Yes, so of course the report celebrates that entrepreneurial activity between men and women has parity. There obviously are still issues and barriers that face women

around raising investment and being able to compete with our male counterparts in scaling businesses. So I absolutely do have anecdotal experience of how difficult that can be compared to... For example? For example, an entrepreneur of the same journey time as me has had a meeting with an investor and raised investment off the back of that one meeting,

whereas I've been told it could take me up to nine months to raise investment, 50 to 100 conversations to raise investment. And also as sector dependent, it depends what category you're building in. So within Scotland, we're really strong on like medtech and life sciences, renewable energy, startups and innovations.

But for my sector, which is known as pre-K edtech, so early years edtech, the market for that is huge globally, but Scotland maybe hasn't materialised in that same shape. So that's interesting because that might be a market that might be more dominated by women. I saw the term investable woman. So you're kind of saying it takes nine months to get to that?

That's what they're saying on average at the moment. You could have a baby in that time. Well, we do speak that putting a startup into the world is like birthing something into the world. So, yeah, you definitely have to know that it's not going to happen overnight and I do have

a stomach for that now. And I'm also thinking back to some women that I spoke to that they felt it was kind of a ready-made network for some men and not so much for women. Has that changed? Is it there? I've definitely found myself in situations where I've made people uncomfortable because they're not used to a female showing up in certain spaces and I have experienced that but because I've been so welcomed by the initiatives and the support bodies like in the innovation districts around the universities in Scotland where there's high innovation people looking to raise investment create scalable business models through internationalizing what

we've created that they've they've welcomed me in. And therefore, even when I do have to show up in a room where I'm the only woman or face a panel to get reviewed where it's only men at the other side, I have the confidence and ambition now to compete and get myself in the room. What would your number one tip be for a woman who's thinking, I'm going to become an entrepreneur? Yeah, I would advise you to find other women who have the same ambition as you.

Get yourself part of communities that exist locally or nationally. Understand that you're not the only one facing these barriers but together we can knock the walls down knock the doors down it definitely is about unity and not doing it on your own finding coaches mentors etc you now see yourself like a tech entrepreneur is that fair yeah and it really was during that time that I joined the TechSkiller initiative. Within three months, my identity had completely shifted. I found myself with a whole new network. And yeah, that's who I am now, a tech founder, a female tech founder, for sure. Jenna Masterson, best of luck with your business.

All related to a new study finding that women in Scotland now, as they say, or women in Scotland are at parity with male entrepreneurs. So a little bit of good news there. I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know.

It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.

Is there something that you really think we should be talking about on Woman's Hour? Maybe something that you've never heard before. Last year, we featured a woman, a schoolteacher, who had been struggling with the uncontrollable urge to shoplift throughout her life. She shared the impact this criminal activity has had on her and her attempts to get help for a recent diagnosis of kleptomania. The actual taking of something gives you a psychological boost for want of a better word and for that short amount of time you actually feel good but then that's taken away pretty much immediately by shame and fear of being caught. Just walking home feeling that

everyone's looking at you everyone knows that you're not who you say you are and then actually when you get home if you have got away with it not even being able to eat or prepare some of the stuff that you've brought because the guilt is so much i remember that interviewee it really stayed with me have you got a confession that maybe you'd like to share with the audience? We have an open ear here or maybe there's something else you think we should be speaking about. The way to get in touch,

84844, text charged at your standard message rate or on social media, it's at BBC Women's Hour or of course, you can email us through our website. Lots of you getting in touch already.

Really lovely to see some of the ideas that you're sharing. Keep them coming. website. Lots of you getting in touch already. Really lovely to see some of the ideas that you're sharing. Keep them coming. Who is your emergency contact? Is it your partner or somebody else? Well, when my next guest, Australian comedian Sashie Pereira, went on her honeymoon, she was shocked to find out her new husband had not written her name down. The former refugee lawyer turned comedian has been asking her audiences

and found there's a trend. So your loved one might be your ride or die, but not always the person you want to call in an emergency. She's been in Europe touring her show Boundaries. She's going to be heading to the Edinburgh Festival Fringe this summer. Sashie, welcome to Women's Hour.

Hi, thank you so much for having me on. Well, let's talk about this emergency contact theory. I have some messages that have come in. I'll get to them in a moment. What led to your discovery that not everybody has a reciprocal idea on whose name should be down there? It was a very shocking personal experience. Thank you for asking.

He's going to be thrilled that we're on radio about this. It's just a gift that keeps on giving for him. But we were on a honeymoon and we were scuba diving, filling out our emergency contact forms. And I actually had this really lovely moment where I was like, oh, I have an emergency contact for life now. And I looked at him lovingly and I looked at his form and I was not his emergency contact. So a very sweet moment kicked off an immediate fight there. What day of the honeymoon is this? It was day three. So we had 48 hours of joy. And then honeymoon period over and reality bites. Absolutely. But I was watching some of your Instagram

reels about where you're testing it with your audiences. Apparently, your partner, your husband now is not alone in this. Talk us through what you found. He's absolutely not. And it's been I've really loved doing it. I like it when you hit on something that you think is only a personal experience and you find out that it applies globally. And often, not always, I must preface it by saying that, but often the woman's emergency contact is her partner and her partner's emergency contact is their parent, which I have been finding very, very, very funny. And

I was recently watching Mr. and Mrs. Smith. Have you watched that TV show? I watched the film many years ago. Yeah, so they've remade it as a TV series. And it came up in an episode there where that exact set of circumstances happened. And I thought, all right, I'm right on the money on this one. But why do you think the mainly, not all, men are choosing? And is it their father or their mother that they pick? No, they put their mum down.

No dads in this whole situation coming into play. Okay, what's that all about? I don't know. If you have an idea what that's all about, 844. I did see one here, a person who got in touch, it says, you know, is your emergency contact your romantic partner? Definitely not my husband. He never picks his phone up. So I mean, maybe that's it about the partners. Maybe their mum picks up for them and maybe their other half does not. You haven't always been a stand up comedian. Before this, you were a refugee lawyer. might identify with this, but we have a deep embedded need to be right all the time. And I am trying to accept that I am wrong quite often. And that is quite a process that I'm working through. But yeah, no, I did. I did work as a refugee lawyer. I've worked there for 10 years in different countries and ended up in Melbourne to do my master's in law, always intending to go back

overseas. But then I found comedy. How funny is that? Life can just take some twists and turns. But that is quite a jump. How did it come about? I mean, were you doing it on the side? You did say that being a woman of colour and a lawyer confused people sometimes. It really did. As a refugee lawyer on my first day in three different places, they thought I was the refugee, not the lawyer. I'm slack-jawed. It's an interesting place to be brown, that area. I don't know if that's the polite word here. I forget the acronym for not being Caucasian changes, depending on what country you're in. I'm not up to date with the language here. But I just use brown because it's easier. But yeah, there's

been a lot of situations where people are confused because I am the colour of the refugee, not the lawyer, which is very, very odd. You're kind of makes me think of your new show. It's called Boundaries, which you're taking to the Edinburgh Festival Fringe, as we mentioned. And it was talking to your therapist that you came up with the concept of this show. And I also heard you talking about

brown-dories as well as boundaries. What are you trying to get across? It's defining the limits in our relationship with our family, partners, friends, and especially in this relationship with my husband, who's white Australian. I'm brown Sri Lankan who has grown up in the white Australian community for a very long time. And there are two different ways of living. So Sri Lankans, it's a very collectivist society. It's all about what the community wants, what the community needs, what the community thinks. Individualist societies are much more about the individual so individual wants individual needs

individual food allergies very important so trying to balance those two things is is uh has provided much hilarity that i'm trying to work through and um my my therapist she was very very lovely and she said you you need to draw a circle around yourself and maintain a healthy distance from which to love your family. And I just looked at her like she was mad. Like this is not something that exists in the Sri Lankan community. And yeah, I did. I said I grew up with boundaries, which is the same circle, but everyone from the island of Sri Lanka is inside it. Right. So there is none. There is no boundary.

There are zero boundaries and they're just two very different ways of living. And we're trying to balance it. She gets really annoyed when I test material on her, so she didn't laugh, but everyone else has. So I seek validation outside that room. Well, I'm wondering, is comedy also a sort of therapy? Because even though you're talking about, you know, personal life and trying to ring fence some of that, you have been really open about all aspects of your life on stage, including your fertility struggles and for miscarriages. Why do you decide to share those things? So the fertility struggles I actually haven't shared on stage yet. I've written about them

online, but because I haven't processed that properly yet, I haven't been able to write jokes about it. A lot of the time you can, it's only once you've, well, for me, I can only write jokes once I'm past that stage in my life. So past that stage where I was getting in fights with my family and parents about all these things. I've processed it. I've made it funny. I can write a story about it. But with the fertility struggles, we just had our fourth miscarriage

in February. Thank you. But I've really enjoyed writing about it because I find it much easier to communicate in that medium. And many, many, many women have reached out about how much that's meant to them because I don't think people talk about it people talk about it once it's already happened because they say well I these were our struggles but now I have a baby or but now I'm okay and I'm kind of in that place where I don't know if I'm okay but I'm trying to work

through it and reaching out to many people who have gone through it has really helped me. And I just said, I'm sorry. And I know many people will say that, but is there something that you want as a response, particularly after multiple miscarriages or something that you don't want as a response? I mean, maybe sorry sounds trite. I don't know. Oh, it doesn't sound trite at all. I think the issue is that everyone deals with grief in such a different way. This is the thing. There's no one way that people can process grief. And it's been a really difficult thing for me and my husband to navigate.

But for me, I want to be able to talk about it just like any other health problem. You know, like I did my knee in at the beginning of last year at a touch rugby game, and everyone could see that I was struggling because I'm on crutches and they can see how long the recovery is and what that takes out of you. And we can chat through it, what's involved and what's next. But with miscarriages, I feel like often you are managing the emotions of the person that you're speaking to because they're like oh my gosh that is the worst thing that could ever happen and that reaction stops you from being able to discuss it and that's really hard because you just feel like it was just ruining everyone's day so I thought by just kind of putting it into

the world maybe we can become a bit more comfortable, kind of like, look, yes, it's hard, but many of us go through things that are hard, and it's really nice to be able to talk about it for me. Yes, and indeed, I should underline you have the sub stack as well, which of course, has a lot of your writings as well, Sashi Pereira. Thank you for sharing all that. Was it too much? God, I talked for ages. Rude. This is supposed to be your show. You're the guest.

Let us talk just briefly. Edinburgh coming up. Every time I've gone to the festival, I've loved it and the sun has been shining. How much are you looking forward to it? I've never been. I am so excited. I've only ever done the Melbourne Comedy Festival

and I've heard it's like that, but with to the power 100. And I am, this is a very embarrassing confession, but I am obsessed with magicians. I love magicians. I love magic. I've heard there's hate everywhere, just in the street.

So yes, comedy and magic. Looking forward to it. Have a great time. That is Sashie Pereira and Boundaries is the show and she is on her way to Edinburgh. Thanks for spending some time with us here on Woman's Hour.

I want to turn to a new malaria vaccine licensed for children five months or older. It began its rollout the Ivory Coast last week. It's expected to reach, listen to these figures, 6.6 million children in 15

African countries in 2024 and 2025. This is after more than a century of scientific effort to develop effective vaccines against malaria. It is the first to meet the World Health Organization's target of 75% efficacy at preventing the disease. Infants, children and also pregnant women are at a higher risk of severe infection. But vaccine use for adults has not yet been approved. There was a documentary on Monday, you might have seen it, The Battle to Beat Malaria. It was on BBC Two and it tells this history of the vaccine and follows the scientists who made it. Here's one of the professors involved, Katie Ewer, receiving the results from the final phase of testing.

So we have the result of the phase 3. So a big moment. As expected from the phase 2. So really interesting results in there. But yeah, really good and really reassuring and yeah, just very happy.

Very happy. I watched this yesterday, as I did also the comment on Shadow. Let me tell you, there was a few tears shed yesterday. I'm joined now by Dr. Maireen Datu, Clinical Research Fellow at the University of Oxford,

who played a pivotal role in the development of this new vaccine. Welcome to Woman's Hour. I understand, Maireen, that you actually got malaria at one point in your life. Good morning, Nuala. Thank you for inviting me to join. And yes, by way of some background, yes, I did have malaria in 2008 when I was a medical student conducting some research in Uganda.

I don't really remember too much about what happened, but I just remember feeling very unwell and it taking a long time to recover. But of course, the health care professionals are very experienced in dealing with malaria there and they treated me very well. It just was a very frightening time. Well, it goes full circle now because you had this role in developing the vaccine. What was your responsibility? So as my responsibility, I was the clinical lead on the R21 phase three trial. I actually began working on this vaccine once the manufacturing had transferred to the Serum Institute of India. So my PhD actually looked at the early clinical development where we first put this vaccine into humans and tested if it was safe, if the immune system

would work against the vaccine and actually if it worked. So we went through all the exciting firsts, I guess, from the phase one to the phase two, where we saw our exciting results in the norobuchina faso of efficacy of 77% over 12 months to now the phase three results and a policy recommendation and vaccine rollout just last week in children. How amazing is that? I was watching part of the documentary

where you're in the room, where you're waiting to see, will the WHO give the approval to your vaccine? You have the data, along with your colleagues that you believe it should work but who are independent they have to do their own studies before something can be rolled out what was it like and also what were you thinking

when who gave the good news that that it was approved So it was, I think I would say, a whirlwind of emotions, some excitement, as well as almost relief, maybe a little bit of disbelief. But as you mentioned, the WHO did a rigorous assessment. We had been working towards this

for the last couple of years ahead of the policy recommendation. And so, I think the main thing at that point was this is really exciting, but understandably, we still have to continue doing all the work, making sure there is best practice, optimal care for clinical trial participants, making sure that we can completely carry on generating data. And then also the excitement of when this is actually going to be rolled out into children, aside from a clinical trial. And as we've discussed, that started happening last week, which was, you know, a milestone moment, I think, for everyone involved. Your supervisor, Adrian Hill,

who's also in the documentary, he counted the amount of failed malaria vaccines, 142. But now that this is above the 75% efficacy rate, it's hundreds of thousands, I believe, this decade, which you then multiply by the coming decades. It's millions of children that can be saved. Absolutely. If you take a step back, if you think there are around 600,000 deaths a year, we really hope we can make a huge dent in that so long as we can deliver the vaccine effectively. And similarly, because of our partnership with the Serum Institute of India, they have committed to providing the vaccine at just under $4 a dose and being able to manufacture around 100 million doses annually. So we really hope this will mean

significant coverage of the target population. And R21 is this particular vaccine. This is for children, which focuses, the documentary is on that too. But there is that question about what about adult women?

Because pregnant women, as we know, are also particularly vulnerable to malaria. Yes, that's a very good point. We know that malaria affects pregnant women significantly. They're at risk of complications such as severe anemia, as well as consequences for the unborn baby. So miscarriages, preterm delivery and stillbirths.

So actually, we are in the process of starting clinical trials in women, first of all, who intend to become pregnant. And then if there are no safety concerns, these trials will move into pregnant women with the hope to generate sufficient data so that we can have an updated policy recommendation and the vaccine can be given to pregnant women also. Is it easy to remain motivated working on a vaccine? I mean, obviously, the rewards are immense, but it looked like really hard work as well. So you're not wrong. It is very hard work, but I think the end goal is the motivation. If you think about that, actually, in terms of cases, there are 240 million cases, 600,000 deaths a year from this disease. I think that's the motivation. Similarly, I work very closely with all our

partners in Africa. They are the people that live and work with malaria every day, suffer the consequences, their families, their children. And, you know, working with them makes you even more motivated. None of this effort would be possible without the global team and all the efforts of our trial sites. And, you know, it's amazing to be able to work with them and see the direct impact it would have on their lives, their families, their communities, and actually Africa as a whole. Dr. Mehran Datu, Clinical Research Fellow at the University of Oxford. Thank you so much for joining us.

I know the hope is to eradicate malaria in the years to come. You can watch the battle to beat malaria on BBC iPlayer if you haven't caught it yet. I do want to let you know that tomorrow Anita will be talking to the former British swimming champion, Rebecca Acheng Adjulu-Bushel

about her decision to quit the sport at just 17 and the price she says she paid for growing up in the pool. Interesting interview to hear that one. Also let us turn back to our emergency contacts. Some of you getting

in touch 84844. Also get in touch if you have an idea for Listener Week. I want to hear them all. There is no sense in putting your partner as your emergency contact if you're both travelling together, even more so scuba diving. It reminds me of an Australian comedy

where the husband and wife are both kidnapped, leaving the kidnappers wondering who to call for the ransom. Anita with you tomorrow. I'll speak to you on Monday. Have a good day. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join again next time hello i'm brian cox and i'm robin ince and we are back with a new series of the infinite monkey cage robin in 15 seconds or

less can you sum up the new series of the infinite monkey cage yes i can do you want to learn how to win at every single board game you ever play including monopoly and cludo do you want to know about alien life coming from glastonbury do you want to know about the wonder of trees with Judi Dench? And do you also want to know about the unexpected history of science with Rufus Hound and others at the Royal Society? How is it unexpected? I don't know which is why it's unexpected. It's unexpected to me.

It might not be to the listeners. The Infinite Monkey Cage. Listen first on BBC Sounds. I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody.

Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby.

It's a long story. Settle in. Available now.