Woman's Hour - Karen Gillan, Children's exposure to porn, Lexi Chambers

Episode Date: August 19, 2025

If you knew the world was about to end, what would you do? That’s the dilemma Karen Gillan’s character faces in new film, The Life of Chuck, in which she stars opposite Chiwetel Ejiofor. Karen tells Nuala McGovern about her latest role, her evolving relationship with the Marvel films and her hope to return to directing.'This report must act as a line in the sand…it should be read as a snapshot of what rock bottom looks like.’ That’s the warning from the Children’s Commissioner, two years on from her landmark report on the scale of children’s exposure to pornography online. Research out today from the Commissioner’s Office finds that more children are being exposed to pornography, with a growing number stumbling across it by accident, some younger than six. Much of the content children encounter is violent. The report also reveals troubling attitudes towards women and girls: nearly half of 16- to 21-year-olds agreed with the statement, 'Girls may say no at first but can be persuaded to have sex.' Joining Nuala in the studio is the Children’s Commissioner Dame Rachel de Souza.As excitement builds ahead of the Women’s Rugby World Cup, we hear from endurance athlete Lexi Chambers. The five-time world record holder is in the middle of another epic challenge, wheeling 322 miles from Twickenham Stadium to Sunderland’s Stadium of Light to deliver the official match whistle in time for Friday’s opening game between England and the USA. Lexi, who lives with multiple chronic pain conditions, is aiming to complete 10 ultramarathons in 10 days using her every day, non-sport wheelchair. She takes a break to fill Nuala in on her progress and explain why she’s taken on such a challenge.

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BBC Sounds, music, radio, podcasts. Hello, this is Newellamogarine, and you're listening to The Woman's Hour podcast. Hello and welcome to the programme. Well, in a moment, as you will have been hearing over this morning, we want to dig further into the Children's Commissioner for England, Rachel DeSouza's new report, as she's here with me in the Woman's Hour studio. She's been investigating children and their access to pornography. Now, many of you listening will have grappled with this.

issue with the proliferation of smartphones and I want to know how are you navigating it with your children do you have tips perhaps to share with your fellow listeners you might know the online safety act has come into effect with more robust age checks on sites inappropriate for children but what else would you like to see happen the number to text the program is 84844 on social media we're at BBC Woman's Hour or you can email us through our website for a WhatsApp message or a voice note the number is zero three 700 one hundred four Also, this hour, we're going to spend some time with the actor Karen Gillen, who stars in a mind-bending and brilliant film, The Life of Chuck.

It's based on a novella by Stephen King, so lots to discuss there. Also today, Lexi Chambers, the endurance athlete is partway through her 10 ultramarathons in 10 days. She's going to stop for a few minutes to chat with us about her attempt at a new world record as she wheels her way to Sunderland's Stadium of Light. It's for the opening game of the women's rugby world cup. And amid the headlines of Presidents Trump, Zelensky and Putin, there has been an exchange of letters initiated by First Lady Melania Trump to highlight Ukraine's missing children taken to Russia during the war.

So we're going to hear what impact those letters may have. But let me begin. The report that we want to talk about. It says this report must act as a line in the sand. It should be read as a snapshot of what Rock Bottom looks like. It is a warning from the Children's Commissioner for England, two years on from her landmark report on the scale of children's exposure to pornography online. New research from the Commissioner's Office out today

finds that more children are being exposed to pornography with a growing number stumbling across it by accident, some as young as six. Much of the content encountered is violent. And the report also reveals troubling attitudes towards women and girls. Nearly half of 16 to 21-year-olds agreed with the following statement. Girls may say no at first, but can be persuaded to have sex. I'm joined in the Women's Hour Studio by the Children's Commissioner Dame Rachel DeSouza. Welcome.

Thank you. And good morning. Now, you say this report is the most sobering your office has ever published. Why? Look, it's just horrendous. So my job is about getting the voices of children and taking them to government to Parliament. So we talked to thousands of children and young people about when they first saw porn and, you know, how young they were and what they saw.

And I did the first one two years ago, and I've done this one now. Look, half of children see porn, hardcore porn, strangulation, what the kids talk to me, sleeping sex. So someone's asleep and then they're basically, someone has sex with them against their will. Terrible things. and they're 13 or 14. 25% of children see this at age 11 and children as young as 6 or 7 seeing it.

And what horrifies me is how many of the things we're seeing now are becoming norms and it's really affecting behaviours between children, between young people and particularly for girls. That bit of evidence she just gave about, you know, It's like 44% of girls who have seen porn just think they can be persuaded to yes. And what worries me is this is almost, you've got young boys getting addicted, you've got girls doing things that, you know, I thought 30 years ago we'd stopped happening. And it feels retrograde for girls.

So I'm really deeply, deeply worried about it. And do you know where they're seeing the porn? Twitter. The vast number of children were seeing their porn. on social media, been shown it in the playground. They were stumbling across it. It's not porn sites. It's social media.

Well, I'll come back to that statement with girls as well because they're more likely to agree with the statement about being persuaded to have sex even than boys. But let's talk about that second point that you bring up there that people are seeing it on X, formerly known as Twitter. And that, as I see in your report, the percentage is higher than on designated. And higher than two years ago. And higher than two years ago.

But what, and many of them seeing it by accident, I should say as well, not that they're seeking it out. But what do you put this down to? So look, I think that just greater and greater prevalence of porn on social media, when I surveyed every single head teacher in this country and asked them what their top five worries were. And their second worry, highest worry, the first one was money, second highest worry was what children are seeing on social.

social media. And I think I call the social media companies in every six months. This online safety act before it became a bill was passed two years ago. The social media companies have done nothing to clean up their act until now. So this needs to be a line in the sand. They need to take responsibility. But we also need parents and schools to be working together to support children as well. But we're just in mid-August at the moment. Your research was carried out before the 25th of July and that was when key elements of the UK's Online Safety Act

particularly related to child safety came into force so now all sites and apps that allow pornography or inappropriate content it goes beyond pornography will need to have verified age checks in place

won't that put a stop to some of the issues you raise you look at me with doubt in your eyes I so wish it would and I am going to get behind I'm supporting off on the regulator to try to help them understand exactly what children's experience is

because unfortunately many of these billion-pound big social media companies are not really focused on child safety. We've had to drag them, you know, screaming and crying to get them to do anything. Most of them didn't put erage verification checks into place until just before the law was enforced, like days before, as opposed to two years ago when they could have done it. So I do think we now have protections in law. What needs to happen is offcom need now to go after bad behaviour of social media companies and sort it out. They are doing really well offcom. They're trying to sort of, you know, take on the issues, but they're going to have to be very brave and go for these big. And particularly, I mean, again, I'm bringing X out

because this is where more children see porn on X than from porn sites or even other Snapchat's another bad one. You know, we need these companies to be responsible and to be held to account by the legality of our country. We've got to protect our kids. A couple of things. I did go to the off-com site this morning in relation to this. And they do have dozens of companies that they're going after right now.

I believe it's 18 million is one of the fines or can be a percentage off their revenue. Is that enough? Look, I think they're going to have to. The failure rate should be. It should be zero, right? You know, when I see a child who's killed themselves because they've seen self-harm material,

when I see a girl who's, you know, being sexually abused right because of something that's happened online, it's just not good enough. So off, and I think Offcom have to be brave and go after the big beasts and do it. And of course, as we speak to the Children's Commissioner, we are talking about lots of graphic details. There are links to help and support on the BBC's action line

if some of these issues affect you. I do want to read some statement from Ofcom, a spokesperson said, the reports, your report, findings show the acute harm caused by an age-blind internet where children have been able to stumble across porn and other egregious online content without looking for it. Now that the new online age checks and other child safety measures are enforced, tech firms must take concrete action to prevent this from happening and we will be holding them to account. But we also recognise that age checks are not a silver bullet. They need to work alongside education, awareness campaigns and through supportive conversations, trusted adults will continue to work closely with the children's commissioner drawing on her office's expertise and insights in our work to protect children online. I want to read a message that's coming in. We threw it out open to the listeners, 8444 if you'd like

to get in touch. One of our listeners' message to say, why doesn't Rachel DeSuzza recognize that we must, must, must delay the age that smartphones are given to children? A smartphone-free childhood delay smartphones legislated now, exclamation point. So look, great point. When I brought hundreds of 16 to 21-year-olds into the DFE and asked them, what did they wish their parents had known about social media, about phones? And their answers really, I think give us the answer. They said, do not give us phones too young.

But what is too young? Well, you know, when I, our research shows most children are getting them about the age of 11 or 12. It's really how parents are finding it really hard to hold out later. Now, I am very sympathetic to say if a child's diabetic and needs the phone to check or they need their phone to track a bus. But the other thing the children said was when you give it, young people said was when we do have them, don't let us take them to bed at night. Keep open the conversation with us about what we're seeing.

So in an ideal world, I mean, I didn't give my own son one until he was 16. We would delay. How was that conversation? He was a sporty kid and he wasn't. particularly interested in having one. He just had a Nokia to do what he needed to do. I know it's much harder and that's why I don't, you know, it's hard when everyone's saying, oh, you know, all the friends have got one.

Well, when they're meeting up and that's their way of communicating. I mean, I think the thing for a lot of children, which is probably one of your points, is that the line between online and offline is non-existent for some. And you can not let your own child have. have a phone and someone else will still show them the stuff on the school bus or in a playground. So I'm all four parents grouping together and trying to protect the innocence of childhood. But I think the genies out the bottle and I think the children, young people's advice,

which was don't give us them too young, don't let's take them to bed at night. And the thing they really wanted were for their parents to protect them, they talked to me about please, please get our parents to talk to us about what we're seeing online. We might look as if we're not interested and go, oh, but actually, we are. And I think that's really important advice from the young people. It's interesting. It's like looking for boundaries to be enforced. And some of what the boundaries are is these age checks and verifications. I see somebody when I created an account with the betting website. I had to provide my passport to prove I was 18. I don't understand why every other site doesn't have to do that. But there is a way, of course, around a lot of this, which people will talk about as well. Let me just get into some of the figures here. We talk about offcom, the media regulator. They estimate 14. 14 million people watch porn, some data analytics research reported that the number of people in the UK visiting the most popular porn sites decreased sharply since the age verification rules came into place. But at the same time, VPN's apps have become the most downloadable and they have a variety of uses, but one is potentially getting around these blocks because of your location and these are virtual personal networks so people can't see where you are. What about them?

So look, there is nothing wrong in themselves with VPNs. I use VPNs when I'm abroad to get into my calendar here. It's absolutely normal and we should be able to use them. But the problem is that one of their uses can be to go onto porn sites, use them to get onto porn sites. So my view is the Online Safety Act should apply to VPNs as well. And how would we do that? We just take away.

Why doesn't it? It's just a loophole. But truly that loophole should have been seen. This has been so long in the making. I know. It's a great big, messy bill. And I think it's just one of those loopholes. We raised it many times.

And it should just be completely straightforward that you age verify. Nobody thinks anyone's doing anything they shouldn't do. It's fine for adults to do whatever they want to do. But we shouldn't allow this loophole for children to see things that are illegal for them to see now. I might have said personal network. This private network is a virtual private network. But a couple of messages coming in. Here's one from Riyan.

She says, check their phones for secret apps, go to settings, look at all the apps. A calculator on the main screen could be a secret app hiding porn apps or any other apps that they don't want you to see. I used to be a chaperone, so I know some of the tricks children get up to by watching their faces. But that does set up a strange dynamic.

Is that something that you would be in favour of? I think back to the advice of those 16 to 21-year-olds who said, conversations with us open, talk to us about what we're seeing. Don't just have that one conversation about sex where you tell us what it is and then we want to run out the room as quickly as possible. Talk to us actually about what we're seeing because actually we often need you to help. But the reason, and one of the big reasons that came across as to why they hide these things is because they think they'll get everything taken off them. So actually it's that

careful thing about boundaries. This is what we do. This is what we don't do. But sometimes you've going to help children help themselves. They are children. When I look at 14 and 13 year olds addicted to porn and see their little baby sweet faces and think about that secret life they're living, they need our help and we shouldn't, we're civilised society, we shouldn't be doing it. Their brains are not able to deal with it. A couple of things. There's a lot coming in and there's a lot of strands to get through. With the VPN's loophole you talked about that it should be closed. Will it be closed? I am calling on government to do it. Please do it. Is the resistance? Because what has come up previously with the online safety bill,

it is adults at times concerned about their privacy, for example, or feeling it goes too far or that it's overreach. Yeah. So look, I am talking only about children and I don't think there is one adult in this country who wouldn't

want to protect children from seeing this and we are going to have to make some sacrifices. It is a messy big bill but to be a big act but to be honest, a little bit of overreach if it protects children from seeing this stuff, I think is a good thing. The thing about the Online Safety Act is it is able to modify.

It's been written like that because we know tech modifies. So there is the opportunity for government to do this. And I am urging them strongly today to take VPNs out of this loophole and put age verification on there. It's simple. Do it. A lot of people getting in touch. Alison says, as a teacher, I'm really interested in the current conversation around pornography. When Rachel DeSuzer talks about sex without consent, I think it's important that this is called rape.

Children know that rape is wrong. Let's get the language right. Yeah, I totally agree. And I mean, we do use that word in the report. We talk extremely graphically about what children are experiencing. And she's absolutely right. Kate's message to say, teens will always be curious about sex and pornography until we regulate the porn industry properly, excuse me.

It's always going to be a problem. Do you have that in your sites? Look, what I've got in my sites is keeping children safe. and you know I that is that is space for others to get into and what I need is to make sure that children cannot get on those sites tech companies, porn companies know the age of who is on there the technology is so good now get them off that's what they it is the law they must do that

84844 if you'd like to get in touch as I was reading through your report it's 44 pages I think for people interested in this issue it's well worth a read but what I did come across is that on online and offline pornography is treated differently, particularly what comes up, and again, this is graphic, but talking about non-fatal strangulation. It's now a criminal offence when committed for sexual gratification, yet it remains widely depicted in online pornography. The Crime and Policing Bill, you are calling for amendments to that. Yeah, basically, what is illegal in the online world, should be illegal in the online world. in the offline world, in the online world. What's it?

The legal in the offline world should be illegal in the online. The crime and policing bill is saying that strangulation is going to be outlawed. I want that with no loopholes. Absolutely unequivocal. We should not be seeing that. But why is it?

How do you understand it? Well, what do you mean in terms of... Of the difference? Well, it's just, so many things are like this. Because the online world has developed so quickly and, you know, the legal parameters around the offline world have been there for a lot, lot longer, that children have been like canaries in a coal mine,

seeing things that we were just, as parents, as carers of children, would just be shocked and horrified that they're seeing. And my worry is not only have they been seeing strangulation, and all strangulation is coercive. Just think about what strangulation is, right? I'm not just talking about a gentle, someone putting their arms right. I'm talking about, we're talking about trying to restrict people breathing. That is, you know, you are out of,

control at that point. I want it unequivocally outlawed online. It is getting into relationships. I cannot tell you how many girls tell me that new boyfriends, you know, moving in for the first kiss, put their arms around their next one, try to strangle them. It sounds crazy, but boys are getting their sex education online. So let us turn back to the statement that we began with, which that 44% of respondents agreed with this statement. Girls may say no at first, but they can be, but then can be persuaded to have sex and girls were more likely to agree with the statement than boys. What did you find out? What's behind? I mean, it's, it's horrifying, isn't it? And I was, that, that truly shocked me almost more than

many of the other graphic details because I think about the past decades, I've been a teacher for 34 years in run schools, the lessons that we've taught on consent, the careful, like, raising of girls' self-perception and self-confidence. And what I'm seeing online is a degradation of females. And this just plays to that. And it breaks my heart. I feel like we're going backwards. And we're not, we don't, by putting the blinkers on,

we're not protecting our girls. And not protecting them to feel confident, confident in relationships. Confident to say no. To be, so if you look at it, it was the girls who'd seen porn were more, likely to say yes, you'd say yes, if you were pestered, and the boys who hadn't seen porn, I thought it was a really interesting juxtaposition.

You talk about them becoming norms in society, because the number was actually high as well, even for girls who had not seen porn with that particular statement. High 30s, yeah. Yeah. We shall continue talking. I want to thank everybody who's got in touch to keep your messages coming 844-844. The name of the report is, if you'd like to find it online, is kind of broken now.

Also a very sad statement from one of the children. It is children and pornography. Rachel D'Souza, who's the Children's Commissioner for England. Her report that is out now that you'll be able to find online. Dame Rachel D'Souza, thanks so much for joining us. Thank you so much. Really important to talk to you. Now, I'll read one more comment coming in from Simon,

an executive head teacher at a primary school. He's contacted the program to say that they've banned any smartphones been brought into school by pupils. He says, want to make it easier for parents to delay buying smartphones. for the children by reducing peer pressure. So we're getting your tips and thoughts on what you've heard. Another listener wants to see bigger consequences for the owners of social media businesses, arrest, prosecutions, convictions, similar to serious health and safety breaches.

I keep them coming and we'll keep talking about it. But I want to turn to something completely different. A little later this week, something very uplifting. We'll be bringing you a special programme to mark the start of the women's rugby world cup. My next guest is endurance athlete Lexi Chambers. She's been preparing for the tournament in her own unique way, attempting to break her sixth world record by wheeling 32 miles from Twickenham Stadium to Sunderland's Stadium of Light.

So Lexi is going to be with us. She's taking some time out to join me on the line. Hello, Lexi. Hi, yeah, thank you for having me. So great to have you. Thanks for taking a break in the podcast. punishing schedule, to say the least. Let's go through this.

You live with multiple chronic pain conditions, I understand, but you are on a mission to deliver the official match whistle for that opening game between England's Red Roses and the USA. But there is a road to go before you get there. Tell us what you're doing. Yeah, so I started off on the 10th of August. I'll be finishing on the 20th. So essentially I've just been doing 10 ultra-marathons in 10 days

using my everyday non-sport wheelchair. Now, why did you want to do that? Basically, for two reasons, really. Obviously, to fundraise for child fund rugby, an amazing charity. They basically harness the power of rugby. They talk about the power of rugby quite a lot, and it's a real thing. They harness the power of rugby to drive social impact. and they're literally

setting up programmes all around the world in 32 different different countries all in five continents literally to help help women and young girls engage in rugby and engage in sport and give them really important life skills as well and the second reason obviously I'm a big fan

of women's rugby and to tell people that it's okay to support rugby even if you can't play it I mean, I can't play it, unfortunately. I'd love to. Lots of people support men's rugby, but it's okay to support both. And just give it a chance and give it a go because women's rugby is absolutely phenomenal and it inspires me every day to do what I do.

And you never know what it can inspire you to do. What is this about rugby that you love? That's a tricky one. I could be on for hours. Yeah, it's pretty much everything. The whole game, once you watch it, it's almost hypnotic of how tough these. girls are. They're absolutely phenomenal athletes. They're wonderful advocates for sport as well. But when you watch somebody that's sort of running as fast as they can, thinking so quickly

as well when they're doing it to what position they're going to go to next, whilst a ball is being thrown at them and then they're having head-on collisions with a really tough person and then getting knocked to the floor, getting up and doing it all over again, it's just absolutely incredible to watch. And the girls are just so, so tough. It's just mind-boggling that they can do what they do. I find it fascinating. And they really are incredible. I think hypnotic is such a good word, Lexi, because I've often, the rugby's been on and I'm like, I'm just going to watch this for a minute. I'm going to sit down and watch it for a minute. And then before you know it, you're totally drawn in, sucked into it and you're following every part of it. But to get there,

I mean, okay, it is amazing that when you get to the stadium of light, that you will deliver the official match whistle for that opening game. But really, 10 ultramarathans in 10 days? I mean, there must have been an easier way, right? Probably, but I mean, it's a challenge and no sort of challenge is worth doing if it's not difficult.

So I kind of figured that if I can do this, then I can show a little bit of what the girls go through in their training and when they're actually on the field for those 18 minutes. what they go through is just absolutely phenomenal. So in a way, I suppose, trying to replicate a little bit of what I imagine they feel. And it's very, very tough, but yeah, it's worth every single push and every single mile. And we know rugby is often associated with pain.

We only have to watch it for a few minutes to realise that. But, you know, you do suffer with chronic pain. And I'm just wondering what that's been like on the challenge or how do you try and mitigate that? it's really tough so I have three chronic pain conditions complex regional pain syndrome is why I'm an amputee I have my leg amputated for that condition and then it came back and also fibromyalgia and nerve issues as well in my in my stump so yeah like when you're moving around and you're doing quite a lot of sport it can trigger things so it can make the pain a little bit worse but also it it kind of makes it better in a way so it can it can trigger it

to be a worse level, but it helps in the everyday pain in that it gives me something to do. So it kind of offsets as a distraction. So when I'm actually moving, I can, in a way, cope with the flares that I have, which push the pain levels up to about a 10 out of 10. I can cope with those a lot better when I'm actually moving. So it's almost like a therapy for me in a way. So interesting. I was also reading that you will feel pain even in the limb that you do not have.

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, this is exactly. that's where most of my pain is coming from, is literally in the actual stump itself, so where the amputation happened. Unfortunately, when I had the amputation, the condition that I had it for, the complex regional pain syndrome,

kind of came back in that area. So it used to be in my foot, and then it came back in the stump. So, yeah, it's quite uncomfortable. You are exceptional, as we can hear, as you talk about what you're doing, and also, I should mention to people, it's also a non-sport wheelchair

that you're used. using your everyday wheelchair to do this challenge, which will be an achievement, no doubt. But, you know, I've spoken to other people who are disabled, and sometimes they talk about the pressure to be exceptional. Do you ever feel that or think about that? No, not at all. I never really thought about it, actually. I think for me, it was just the case sort of as soon as I learned that that the condition had come back and I was going to be wheelchair dependent because originally I thought I was going to be able to wear a leg and everything would be fine. And then obviously the condition came back. I couldn't wear a leg. I was going to be

wheelchair dependent for the rest of my life. And it was, I had two choices at that point. I could either say, right, this is my lot. And I'm just going to sit and, you know, I lost my career. I lost a lot of things at that point. Or I can use it for something good and I can see what I can do with the sort of new life that I've been given now in a way. And one thing that came across really quickly was I'm sat in this chair. I can't do the sports that I love anymore. I certainly can't do new ones that I want to do. But what I can do is I can use this chair to wheel to show other people that actually

if they end up like me wheelchair dependent or in any walk of life, you can still engage in sport with what kit you have. So if you've got a pair of trainees, you can go for a run. If you've got a chair, you can go for. a wheel. If you've got a ball, you can throw it. And that's literally where everything came from. So that's pretty much what I've focused on since the word go, really. You're very inspiring. I was reading through your material yesterday evening, and I'm not going to lie, I was sitting on the sofa and feeling quite lazy. And then after reading, I got up,

I got on the bike and I went for a swim, Lexi. So thank you for that. But tell me a little bit about where you are, literally, geographically, where you were and where you will be. So I'm not actually sure where we are at the moment We just pulled in the side of the road Literally, I'm about 20 kilometres through my 50 kilometres day so far So I've been going for just under a couple of hours So I've got a few more hours to go

So we're Dalton on Tees I've been told And when you go I'm just wondering the reaction you get from people Yeah it's been absolutely incredible People have been really supportive on route. Lots of people have been beeping their horns, kind of shouting lovely things out of the car windows.

We've even had people running up to the car and handing donations in, which has been very much appreciated. Yeah, it's just been phenomenal. Everywhere we've been, there's not been one negative thing, so it's brilliant. And you're attempting a new world record? Yes, so I actually, obviously awaiting confirmation, but if all the confirmation comes back, okay,

I've actually achieved that two days ago. So for the record, it was the most ultramarathons done in seven days using a non-sport wheelchair. So we've just got to send everything off to Guinness and get that officiated. Congratulations on that. Thank you. And what a lovely note to end on. Until the Women's Rugby World Cup, Lexi Chambers, thanks so much for joining us and taking a little bit of time out with us.

Thank you so much for having me. Thank you. Now, don't forget to join us on Friday because Anita, We'll be live from Bladen Rugby Club in the North East, just down the road from where England begin their World Cup campaign. She'll be speaking to England star, Abby Ward, World Rugby's Sarah Massey, who's the director of the tournament, and even, I want to see this, even getting stuck into the scrum.

So that's Friday, 10 a.m. right here, Radio 4. And, of course, you can watch and listen to all the matches across the BBC. Let us stay with Rugby Fern at the moment, because last week Anita was joined by women's rugby trailblazer an amateur player since university. Deborah Griffin was co-organiser of the first ever women's rugby World Cup and that was held in Wales and that was in 1991.

Earlier this month she took up a new role as the president of the rugby football union, the first woman to hold that role. Here she is and what she had to say about playing the game. People don't realise that women play it because they enjoy the game. You know, it's nothing to do with trying to get one over men. It's because the game, we all love the game, and it's so enjoyable to play. So I think that's what people don't, some people don't understand why you would want to run around tackling people, you know, getting hurt, scraped knees, all those sorts of things.

Why do you? It's just a brilliant game. And not only on the pitch, which, as I said before, you know, it's both intellectually and physically exciting. But I think it's that playing together means that you have friendships for many years. And the men have that. And, you know, that's grown up with the women. I've just come back from Italy with a group of friends I played rugby with, nine of us. And that was our 26th annual trip away.

And that's repeated across the country. I hear people say, you know, I've got great friends from playing rugby. that was Deborah Griffin speaking to Anita and if you want to get in touch with our program 84844 is one place to do it we're all looking forward to the women's rugby world cup messages continue to come in on children and pornography here's one from Nick he says I have three daughters

who've had phones when they start at secondary school I'm so worried about what they've already seen and I'm too embarrassed to approach the subject and I don't know what the schools are going to do about it either Another retired teacher says it's not uncommon to encounter students selling porn to younger students on a commercial scale. 84844 if you'd like to get in touch.

Now, when Ukrainian President Zelensky went to the White House for important talks over the future of his country, he handed over a letter to President Trump and it was from his wife, Olena Zelenska, to First Lady Melania Trump, thanking Ms. Trump for the letter. that she had sent to Vladimir Putin,

highlighting the issue of the children who are believed to have been abducted by Russian forces. The numbers, there are meant to be at least 20,000 Ukrainian children. Some estimate the figure could be much higher. And they are thought to have been taken to Russia or Russian occupied territories without the consent of their parents since the full-scale invasion. In Melania Trump's letter to President Putin,

she wrote that it was his responsibility as a world leader to protect the children of the world. Well, to tell me more about this behind-the-scenes diplomacy and what's been happening with the children, I'm joined by Ukrainian filmmaker Shahida Dooliganova

and BBC Ukraine journalist Irena Taranyuk. Welcome to both of you. Arena, let me begin with you. Mrs Zelenska wrote a letter thanking Melania Trump for writing to President Putin. Give us the background.

Well, actually, it all started with Melania Trump writing a letter to President Putin, which was handed over to him during the famous Alaska summit of the two presidents last Friday. And the letter itself is very accurately worded to avoid placing any responsibility directly onto President Putin for the abduction of Ukrainian children, which you rightly said, Nula, officially number just under 20,000, that is the number that is quoted by Ukrainian government. of the proven cases. But the actual number of Ukrainian children who find themselves on Russian territory or in Russia is believed to be in hundreds of thousands. So the letter avoided

apportioning political blame, even though President Putin is famously indicted by international criminal court in crimes of abducting Ukrainian children. It's not the first time Melania Trump, of course, gained support, broad support in Ukraine. If you remember, the first time she was fetid in Ukraine was when Trump admitted that it was his wife who gives him reality check. Each time he comes and boasts about a good conversation he has had with good friend Vladimir, Melania would tell him, really, and how about he bombed another city, old people's home? So Melania is sort of a hero of Ukrainians and that's why probably it was a good occasion

for Olena Zelenska, the First Lady of Ukraine to personally thank Melania for her role in bringing the world's media attention to the suffering of Ukrainian children. And that letter was passed from Mr Zelensky to Mr. Trump at this recent meeting. But this back channel between two very famous first ladies do you think it can be effective?

Potentially, definitely so. But at the moment, it's underused, I would say, because Ukrainian media were very quick to portray a sort of behind the scenes style battle between the first ladies. You know, Melania Trump is famously a former model and usually when each her appearance in public is predominantly concentrated or covered by what is she wearing, what she got on. Well, Ukrainian media also pay a huge attention to what Olena Zelenska is wearing. And Olena Zelenska was a scriptwriter for his production company, for her husband's production company back when he was a comedian. And she was much camera shy to begin with. Now she plays a more prominent role. And of course, her outfits also draw a lot of attention in Ukraine. And Ukrainian media, justifiedly or not,

consider Elena Zelenska to be sort of a winner of this, unofficial fashion contest, but she is now kind of just dress horse for Ukrainian fashions or ambassador for Ukrainian fashions. She is also an actor in her own right. And the fact that she's campaigning on behalf of Ukrainian children stolen or abducted by Russia is one thing. she also organized First Lady's Forum each time there is an international meeting of leaders in Ukraine. So she is really an active and working First Lady of Ukraine. Let me turn to you, Shehida. Some people would have been following this story.

Other people will not. We spoke to you in February 2024. There were 11 Ukrainian children taken to Russian health territory. where to be, you're reunited with families in a Qatari deal. But let's go back one step from there. Irena was mentioning the potential numbers. Why were children taken? What is the understanding of why Russia did it?

Well, officially Russia says that they're saving those children. Well, unofficially, it's a government-sponsored and orchestrated campaign to take the children and they're saving those children. then reeducated, quote unquote, for them to become a proper Russian citizens. And it's a very dangerous trend. They were taking children once they occupy the territory, they take the kids, especially kids first from the orphanages or state institutions, and then the children are given for adoption in Russia.

When I asked a Russian psychologist who used to work with Russian orphanages for years, I was like, why are they taking the Ukrainian kids? There are so many children waiting for adoption inside Russia. And she said something very horrific to my ear. She said that Russians tend to adopt children who are blonde and with blue eyes. And thus here are Ukrainian children. And so these, whatever the numbers are, tens of thousands of children that have been taken, were they all from orphanages?

A lot of them, some proportion of them are from orphanages. A lot of them have living parents or relatives, so they're not supposed to be taken. I personally know the case of one boy from Herzogne region. During the occupation, the Russian soldiers just came to his house and took him. And his mom wasn't in the house at the time. I think she went shopping and she came back and her son wasn't there. And the only way we found out where he is

was because of the help of the Russian volunteers, this unsung heroes of finding children who actually found him in a boarding school, so to say, in Leningrad region. So, but a very small number is my understanding that have been found or indeed returned. I would repeat that Russia denies the accusation, as you mentioned. It says it has protected vulnerable children by removing them from a war zone for their own safety. But do we know that you mentioned that particular child in a sort of boarding school in Russia? Do we know where the other children are?

It's very difficult to trace them down because in the beginning of this so-called campaign of abduction, Russian authorities published their names in the adoption site called Ussenaadop.ru, so to say. Then they stopped doing it after the big international outcry. there are lots of people who are trying to find them, and it's really, it's very hard. It's like finding a needle in a stock of hay because it's all the, most of the times it's a word of the mouth. For example, the child returns, and then he or she says, oh, and so and so is there, so and so and there. Because kids tend to keep in touch via social networks, and that's one of the way to find what children are. unfortunately we won't be able to find out about those kids who were adopted because in many cases

and now most of the times after the adoption Russian families changed their names and they changed the place of birth so it's in this situation how would you find them indeed and especially the babies and so it's children across a range of ages it sounds like as well and of course that will you know, it's been a couple of years, which is a very long time in a child's life that this has been taking place. Let me turn back to you, Rena.

As Shahida is saying, it's been very difficult for parents to have their children returned, but that there is now a database. Tell me a little bit about that. There is a database. It's an official database Bring Back Kids UA,

which traces the numbers of the returned children. Just under 50, So less than fewer than kind of 10% of kids that are officially known to have been taken by Russia have returned. And because the countries are at state of war, there are no official links. So there are no bilateral contacts between Ukrainian and Russian government. So any attempts to bring back those kids have to be done by intermediaries. And the intermediaries that are trusted by both sides,

Qatar, as Sheheda mentioned, has been prominent as an intermediary, also the Vatican. Really? But it's a Herculean task to trace those kids. And time is not on Ukraine's side, because, as you are saying, the smaller the children, the easier it is to indoctrinate them and to bring them up as good Russians. Hating, sadly, hating Ukraine, the country of their birth. Do we think, Iran, that the plight of these particular children will in any way be an amendment, a clause, within any potential peace deal? It is definitely being mentioned and it is being featured at the negotiations.

There were three rounds of talks between Ukrainian and Russian delegations until now. And President Zelensky said yesterday after this Oval office meeting that definitely security guarantees for Ukraine in the future peace deal and the return of Ukrainian children, this is something that Ukrainian authorities are adamant to bring forward. And just before I let you go, Sheheda, what happens to children when they do return to Ukraine after being away and being exposed to Russia, the Russian language, their interpretation of events? It's very hard for them because, you know, child is a child, no matter how old this person is, a teenager, spending even half a year in Russia, they are indoctrinated, especially because now they are more and more forced to sign up to this. Russia's youth movement called the Young Army, which is more like Nazi Germany's Hitler-Yung movement. And they increasingly brainwashed. It takes about from six to eight months to untangle all this Russian propaganda in their heads. And I had a case of a boy called Dennis

who was forced to be part of this movement. And eventually he left Russia. He managed to leave. And in the beginning, when I spoke to him, his brain was muddled. He was like, oh, I don't know who started the war and et cetera, et cetera. So it took him eight months to actually come back to the reality of what really happens. Now, a lot of kids who come back, they don't have homes anymore because of the war. So rehousing is a big issue. Then even two years in Russia, even if they go to school in Russia, Ukraine doesn't recognize Russian certificates. So they actually have to go back to the year

where they stopped learning in Ukraine and it creates a lot of problems as well. There are health issues attached. They don't have any money. I mean, they normally come back with just clothes they're wearing. So such a difficult re-entry experience for those children. Thank you very much for shedding some light

on this latest development with this story. The Ukrainian filmmaker, Shahida Tullahanova, and BBC Ukraine journalist Irena Taranyuk. Thanks for your messages coming in as well on children and pornography. Caroline says, as a mother who's brought up three children in the mobile era, I'm disturbed

by the constant narrative about stopping and restricting children. Risks will always be there and parents need to educate their children about the risks of the internet and what socially responsible young people should be doing and behaving. 84844 if you'd like to get in touch. Now, if you knew the world

was about to end. What would you do? That is the dilemma for Karen Gillen's character facing her in her new film. It's a great film. It's called The Life of Chuck. Mind bending is the word that I use.

Well, Karen became a household name here in the UK as Doctor Who's feisty sidekick, Amy Pond. She's in Hollywood 2, Nebula in the Marvel Cinematic Universe, MCU, to those in the know, also in the Jumanji films. But now, playing opposite

at Chiu Etiope 4, in this beautiful life of Chuck. Let us listen to a clip. And you have to imagine what they're looking at is an expanse of stars in the galaxy. But unfortunately, the stars are beginning to extinguish. There goes Mars. I'm scared

I am too I am too Karen Gillen is with me in the moment's air studio Good morning Good morning That was quite a scary clip Wasn't it? It's a scary thing to watch

I was trying to think How do I describe this film And then I thought I'd just leave it to you Oh God You know I genuinely struggle This is one of the hardest films That I've had to promote

because it is one of the more unique projects I've ever been involved with. It's just, it's hard to describe this film. It's like nothing you've ever seen before. That's true. It's kind of like a life-affirming adaptation of a Stephen King short film and it celebrates all these sort of extraordinary moments

within an ordinary man's life and his name is Chuck. Yeah, and it's not a horror film. It's sci-fi, fantasy, somewhat psychological thriller and very beautiful. Yeah, it's a really joyous movie. actually and it's sort of the whole message of the film is that our time in being alive is temporary

and we really do need to live it the way that we truly want to instead of the way that we think we should because of outside influences. Did you do any soul searching in this film? Because I mean I did when I was watching it thinking about how finite time is and the amount of time we have on the planet. Yeah, I mean, you know, my character is dealing with the end of everything and she knows that that's coming. And so, you know, in order to prepare for this role, I had to really ask myself, like, what would it genuinely feel like if I knew that everything was about to end? And it's a wild question to ask yourself. And sort of where I landed was that, you know, all the things that we get so fixated on, like, you know, accolades and money and all of these things. I think in those final

moments, all of that would just fade away. And it's about being with the people that you love and who love you back. And I think that's what it's all about. So in the film, there's natural disasters occurring. parts of the world disappearing into the sea the internet is gone I mean there's a lot of conversations we've heard about the internet this morning but the internet is gone

mobile service is going so is TV you work as a nurse in a hospital but people aren't showing up for work so you know what you do you get a deck chair and you sit down with your ex husband and watch

the stars disappear I mean she's seeking comfort in an ex-husband And do you think many people might do that? Go back to an ex-partner in a time of great stress. I mean, I think some people would. I think in those moments that are really intense, you're seeking familiarity and comfort.

And sometimes that can be found in a former partner. It didn't work out for a reason, but there were good points to their relationship as well. Yeah, I suppose the, I mean, it has some feeling of parts of the pandemic for me. Right. Yeah. I mean, yeah, I believe it was written during the pandemic or at least released during that time. And so when people were reading the short story for the first time, it was during the pandemic.

Now, to some of the beauty, it's great characters in it. And it's also, we should let people know, kind of in reverse, it's not chronological in the way that we might imagine most films to be. So that keeps us on our toes as well. But Walt Whitman is quoted, I contain multitudes is a line that comes up again. again. What does that mean to you? I think it really explores this notion that within all of our minds as an entire universe, with all these different people, characters that you come across, and there's just an infinite amount of amazing things within all of us as individuals, which is kind of mind-blowing when you think about it. Because one scene, the teacher puts her

hands on either side of the child's head, basically above his ears, and talks about all of it containing multitudes like every person you've ever met and every experience you've ever had, anything, all the thoughts and dreams and hopes, aspirations, fears, concerns is all within that small space. Yeah, and that's just one of us. And there are a lot of us on this planet. It's mind-boggling if you think about it. And there's one more extra person on this planet, I believe, since last December. Congratulations. Oh, yes. There's a new one. Little baby Clementine. Clementine, lovely name.

How was it going back? Because I saw you were posting online about doing a photo shoot four months afterwards. You say first day back at work, post-baby. How do you do photoshoots again? How do you after that? I mean, that's a big old leap.

Yeah, I still don't know how to do photoshoots anymore. It's completely different now. It's a wild thing to do that postpartum. But I just got thrown into it. You just get on with it. You just get on to it. we're thinking about while you were pregnant, you were working on a comedy. Let's have kids about two friends who decide to have their first babies at the same time so they can explore

that journey together. Yeah. Did you have a pal going through it at all? I didn't. No. I had to keep my pregnancy a secret because it was so early when I was making that film, but it was all about getting pregnant. And so the experience was just so meta. That's very meta. And yeah, I went through it all, you know, in a fake way on the film and then experienced it all. for real shortly afterwards. I was thinking to be a good call out as well to our listeners for friends that have gone through it together. I would have loved to have gone through that with a friend.

That would have been really nice. Yeah, yeah. A4-4-4 if anybody wants to get in touch. But let's talk about it. So the baby arrived. Yeah. But then there were problems with your pet dog, Turtle. What happened?

We have the most incredible dog. She's a rescue. She's called Turtle. But she does have some aggression issues with people coming into the house. And so we bring a brand new human into a house. She hasn't really met a baby before because we've never really let her loose with a baby

because we just don't want to take that risk. And now it's our own baby and she was not happy about it, let me tell you. She was very confused, didn't really know. She was like, what is this creature that you've brought into our home? And we were at a loss. We didn't know what to do.

It's actually the hardest thing I've ever gone through because I love the dog. Tell me a little bit more about that. Why? Because you had conflicting emotions or... I think, you know, when you have a baby, you're hardwired to protect this thing at all costs. Doesn't matter the lengths you have to go to. And I bring the baby home and then there's essentially, you know, a wolf that wants to eat my baby.

Did you think, dare I ask this question, did you think about... Rehoming the dog? It's something that I just couldn't even let my brain go to because I love this dog. Like, I love this dog so much. She's my other baby. But, you know, when you do have a human baby, it does take priority. Um, so my brain was like, is this something that we have to do, even though I could never bring myself to do it. So it was a conversation that came up crying every day. Like literally me and my husband were crying every single day. And I was in a pit. Was the dog snarling? Was turtle snarling at the baby? Or was growling, yeah, looking aggressive. Like definitely couldn't have let her off the leash with the baby in the room. Yeah. It was pretty much as bad as it gets. Um, and I was in a pit of despair. And I turned on the television and my TV defaults to. random weird channels. That sounds like the film, but anyway, continue. Yeah, it was really

weird. Samsung frame, don't know what's going on with you, but you're defaulting to strange channels. But the Dog Whisperer channel came with Caesar Milan. Oh yeah, I love watching him. Oh, yeah. Okay, so I'm crying, like, what are we going to do? And then I'm like, I need to get to Caesar Milan.

So I'm like, right, so I DM him on Instagram and I'm like, please help me. And he's like, okay, I will help you. Bring your baby and your dog to my ranch and I will sort this out. And I was like, And did he? Yes. Our baby and our dog are incredible together now.

This is great. You didn't film it by any chance, did you? You know, I've got one clip where we arrived at Caesar's Ranch, and he's like, I'm going to show you what kind of dog you have. And he brings out a 40-year-old parrot. And the parrot immediately dominates turtle. Like, just does a sort of quick little peck and turtle retreats and submits. And he's like, okay, you have a back-of-the-pack submissive.

And I'm like, what are you talking about? Our dog is, you know, not a back of the pack. She can get really aggressive. And he's like, no, she's just scared. And it's your fault that she's like this. And I was like, you're right. Listen, I love the way you saw that. I know you also met your husband through a recommended friend's algorithm on Instagram,

which is fantastic. You'll have to come back and chat to us again. Best of luck with the film. I just need to let people know it's called Life of Chuck. It's in cinemas from Friday. Karen Gillen, thank you very much. Thank you so much. Join me tomorrow.

Sister Bliss is going to be here. How exciting is that? She started out DJing. Then, of course, co-founded Fateless. That's smash-hit Insomnia. We all know it very, very well. She helped shape UK dance culture. She'll be right here tomorrow at 10 a.m.

See you then. That's all for today's Women's Hour. Join us again next time. Hello, I'm Helen Lewis. And I'm Amanda Nucci. We're the hosts of BBC Radio 4's Strong Message Here. And over the summer, we are bringing you a series of short episodes called Strong Message Here, Strong Recommend.

Amanda, what is a Strong Recommend? It's something we recommend strongly from the cultural recommendations could be a book it could be a TV show it could be a play It could be a game and if I have anything to do with it

It will be a video game It could be not necessarily something It's just out this week Or just out now For example I will be recommending Richard II by a writer called William Shakespeare I've heard big things ahead for him I'll be talking about taxonomy

I'll be talking about Eldon Ring I'll be talking about why it's worth standing just off Oxford Street at 9pm this summer. So that's strong message here, strong recommend. It's a shorter programme with a longer title. And you can get it now on BBC Sounds.