Woman's Hour - Karen Krizanovich and Heidi Ellert-McDermott on the Oscars, new Paula Yates documentary, abortion rights in the US

Episode Date: March 13, 2023

As a new Channel 4 documentary is released, Nuala McGovern hears more about her life from director Charlie Russell.Who were the female winners at the Academy Awards last night? What were the surprises and omissions? Who gave the best acceptance speeches? We talk to the film critic Karen Krizanovich and speech writer Heidi Ellert-McDermott.Five women who say they were denied abortions despite risks to their lives are suing the State of Texas. In June last year the US supreme court overturned Roe v. Wade, the law that had made abortion a constitutional right for Americans for nearly half a century. Since the court’s ruling, a dozen states have made abortion illegal and many others have restricted it. We talk to the BBC’s reporter in Washington Holly Honderich about this issue and also hear the latest on the fallout over access to a widely use abortion pill which is becoming increasingly difficult to get. And women in Berlin will soon be allowed to swim topless in public pools after a ruling by the city’s authorities. Will it catch on elsewhere?Presenter: Nuala McGovern Producer: Lisa Jenkinson Studio Manager: Michael Milham.

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2. And of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme. Peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, this is Nuala McGovern and you're listening to the Woman's Hour podcast. Good morning and welcome to the programme. Well, the Oscar ceremony is over, but the after parties, I think, are still going. And one person who no doubt is celebrating and will be for the foreseeable future is Michelle Yeoh. She won the award for Best Actress. That was for her role in Everything, Everywhere, All at Once. And she said the award was a beacon of hope and possibilities for all the little boys and girls that look like her.

She is the first Asian woman to win that golden statue. And winning at 60 years of age. She also had this to say to the women. And ladies, don't let anybody tell you you are ever past your prime. You never give up. So what about that? Has anyone ever told you that? Have you pushed on through or thrown in the towel? I want to know, do you feel in your prime? And when do you think your prime is? I don't have the answers, but maybe you do. You may have seen that Jamie Lee Curtis,

she also won Best Supporting Actress. That's at the age of 64. So is this Oscars a game changer? You can text the programme. The number is 84844. Text will be charged at your standard message rate. On social media, we're at BBC Women's Hour, or you can email us through our website.

Or maybe you want to tell your story to us in your voice. Voice note or WhatsApp messages. The number for that is 03700 100 444. We're also going to take a look at other winners and speeches. What works in an acceptance speech? And what bombs? Other stories we will be covering. There's a new story out today by the Lullaby Trust. It's a charity.

It says that nine in ten parents co-sleep with their babies but less than half know how to reduce the risk of sudden infant death syndrome. So we're going to talk about that survey and also risk reduction with our guests and, did you see this? Women will be allowed to swim topless in Berlin's public pools as after a ruling by the city's authorities,

we'll be in the city to hear how discrimination was what caused that new decision. So that is all coming up. Right, let's turn to the Academy Awards. Everything, everywhere, all at once. That was the big winner. Nominated for a total of 11 Oscars. Winning seven, including Best Lead Actress and also Best Picture.

Let's talk about the female winners. The surprises, the omissions, the acceptance speeches. I'm joined again by film critic, maybe a little sleepy. I don't know. You tell me, Karen Krasanovic. I feel absolutely fine. Were you up early? Were you up late? I was up

until four and then I got up again at five. Oh my goodness. Super power status there. Also with us, speechwriter Heidi Ellert-McDermott. Good morning, Heidi. How are you feeling? Oh, I've had about six teas so far so I'm fine. Okay. Six teas, whatever it takes.

Really good to have you with us. We were playing a little bit of Michelle Yeoh's speech there, Heidi. Don't let anyone ever tell you you're past your prime. Never give up, she says. What about that speech? How would you rate it? I'd say that was the speech of the night.

I'd say that line, ladies, don't let anyone tell you you're past your prime, was the standout line for me as well. I'm sure it speaks to a lot of us listening today. And what I really enjoyed about the speeches last night was there really wasn't any self-indulgent ones. They all spoke to the wider audience. So people at home as well as in the room. Karen, I don't know whether you agree with that looking at your face. Oh, no, I thought the Daniels were, I mean, they were up on the podium so much, but there was a little self-indulgence

with the Daniels, just a little bit. But for the most part, it was a joyous reckoning of thanking their mothers, thanking their wives and husbands and really just being grateful. The mothers did make quite an appearance, didn't they, Heidi? Yeah, I think there seemed to be three themes in the speeches. One was about being different, whether it was coming from a different ethnic background or dressing up in drag. Another was being older and still being successful,

which we saw so eloquently with Jamie Lee Curtis and Michelle Yeoh. And can you, sorry, I can't remember his name, Kwan, which was just a really joyful speech to listen to. And I think, yes, the third theme was the mums. And yeah, I loved it. It was great to see all the dedications to mums, but also the recognition of how important we are. It's pretty much the first thing that Kee Hui Kwan said was, look, mom, I've got that Oscar. And he talked about his mother extensively, which was really beautiful. pretty much the first thing that Kee Hui Kwan said was, look, mom, I've got that Oscar.

And he talked about his mother extensively, which was really beautiful. And actually, most of the people that I was with started to cry because it was so moving. Now, let's talk about Michelle Yeoh and Jamie Lee Curtis winning at 60 and 64, respectively. What do you think, Karen? Is this a game changer for the Oscars when it comes to women in film? It could be. I hope it is. I mean, look at what, 2008, 2009, Slumdog Millionaire won eight Oscars. I don't know if that's really changed the game. But I think we're taking a look at women, older women, and looking at the power that they have. And also the fact that they've accepted who they are.

I mean, Jamie Lee Curtis, there was a shot of her. She'd kicked her shoes off. She was barefoot. She is beloved in the industry. It's what I think I was getting from it, Karen. She's very beloved. She has been supporting this film. She calls herself the official everything everywhere all at once cheerleader.

She has been, because don't forget, this was made sort of during pandemic. So it's been delayed. And so she has been cheering this film, the film and all of her co-stars and the directors all the time. And she knows the business. She calls herself the original Nipo baby because, of course, both of her parents are Oscar winners. And she's just played it perfectly and lovingly and also saying, I can't stay up late. You know, I did notice a clip she had the other day also promoting the film talking about we need matinees. Right, yeah, that matinees need to come back.

So she was putting that out to Hollywood. Maybe it will happen. But what about Michelle Yeoh's speech? How did you or how are you thinking about that? And particularly that about women in their prime or never getting past their prime in the way that she described it. Well, I think prime is one of those words that you should be the one that decides whether you are or not. It was an elegant speech, an eloquent speech. She's been winning a lot. She is a total professional. She has many, many years. Don't forget, she used to do her own stunts in Hong Kong thrillers. She's a total professional and gives really, really lovely speeches, knows exactly how to pitch it.

And I think her energy and also the way that I think there's also a visual element. How do we let women age? Well, it's a really good question. And I was thinking about this. And Heidi, maybe you'd like to chime in with Michelle Yeoh and Jamie Lee Curtis. Michelle Yeoh was kind of action packed role on screen. But Jamie Lee Curtis was less than glamorous, Heidi, in that particular role. Yes, I mean, she absolutely was. but in terms of the speeches I think they made important points but did it with a light touch and with a smile and they were really good at speaking to their audience so

the mums the people from ethnic backgrounds and the older people. So for me, they did an excellent job. But how do you create an acceptance speech that has to be, I think, what is it, less than 45 seconds and get across what you want to get across? Well, I think you've just got to think about what the main message you need to get across is. And if you can do that with a sense of humour and a smile,

I think that always goes down well. You just come across as more likeable, more relatable. And also, you know, part of the speech is trying to encourage people to go and watch the film. So, you know, you've got a lot of boxes to tick, but I think size matters. And the 45 second remit with the Oscars, I think made the ceremony all the better for it.

But I do have a niggle when you say that, in the sense of that you have to come across more likeable, particularly for women that are up there giving that speech. Is that still a prerequisite? I mean, with certain messages, maybe not. But I'm a speechwriter writing for businesses and wedding speeches and things like that. And I think likeability does help your message come across um within this context it can with such a sharp duration I think you don't you may be not able to fit all those

um elements in I mean obviously we did have um lots of heavyweight messages in the speeches yesterday but they did manage to call they did manage to do it with a smile on their faces so lots of heavyweight messages in the speeches yesterday, but they did manage to call, they did manage to do it with a smile on their faces. So I think that works. I want to take a look, Karen, at the category

for best adapted screenplay. Yes. One by Sarah Polly for Women Talking. What a film. Focusing on the women of an isolated religious community. The film All Quiet on the Western Front, that was also nominated for that category. And we spoke to one on the women of an isolated religious community. The film All Quiet on the Western

Front, that was also nominated for that category and we spoke to one of the women behind bringing it to life, Leslie Patterson, who after years of rejection had to use her winnings as a champion triathlete. I mean, her life is a movie in itself, right? To keep the project alive. Here she is speaking to

Woman's Hour on the 26th of January. So I've been a professional triathlete for the last almost 20 years, competing all over the world in off-road triathlon. So, yeah, my husband and I were always wondering where we would get that next paycheck from in order to raise the finances. But, you know, having said that, I think the durability that I've gained from that sport certainly has transferred to film, that's for sure. You the durability that I've gained from that sport certainly is transferred to film.

That's for sure. You can find that full interview on BBC Sounds. What about that category for women, Karen? Well, I think it's wonderful. I mean, this is a film that really didn't get a lot of marketing, didn't get a lot of push. A lot of people are quite resistant to seeing it. I mean, as she said in her own acceptance speech, Sarah Pauly said, you know, thank you, Academy, for embracing two words

that generally, you know, women and talking, those are two very scary words. But it's a wonderful film. It's adapted from an amazing book, and the story itself is also pretty extraordinary. And this is a really, really difficult category. I mean, we've got, you know, Kazuyoshi Ishii, guru,

she went up against him. So it's really valuable and also it maybe will make people more open to seeing this film. And I think it's give it a try, even if it doesn't have any traction for you, give it half an hour if you can. Do you think

coming back, Heidi, to the speeches, because you're saying it's about getting people to be interested in the film or like the film do you think an acceptance speech can actually get somebody out of their chair and go to see something? Oh absolutely I said I think that the buzz that every everywhere everywhere all at once got last night I think that will definitely encourage people to go out and hunt it down there There are probably going to be a lot of sort of older moms quite shocked by the metaverse aspect of it, but it does have really good messages in there.

And so I would definitely encourage people to go and see it as well. But yeah, equally, I think there can be really dry acceptance speeches that can turn people off going to the film too. When it talks about bravery and just becomes a bit overly pious, I switch off personally. I can just want to go to see an entertaining film as opposed to being too preached at. So there can be speeches that do turn you off too. You're nodding, Karen. Yes, absolutely.

And this is one of the reasons why the Academy was very careful about speeches. Most of these speeches were rehearsed, from what I understand. So everybody was ready. And if you notice that nobody was played off with music, but they wanted no politics. And that is why they didn't have the Ukrainian president. He did ask to see if he could be on the broadcast, but they said, no, no politics. We want to just keep it very tidy this year. But, you know, the Oscars can try and not be political.

But I guess depending on the movies that are chosen or the people that make the cut, it is in a way a political event. It's always political. I mean, choosing, going to see everything, everywhere, all at once is almost a political thing because I'm embracing this story that maybe shouldn't be interesting to me, but it's an every man, every woman story. And I think it's very important. I mean, everything, All Quiet on the Western Front won an Oscar in 1929, the source.

So it's always political. But this is the great thing about movies, is that we can be entertained but also learn. Any omissions, do you think, Karen? Oh, yeah. Yes, absolutely. I really wanted Mandy Walker, cinematographer, to win. Instead, it was James Friend for All Quiet. Makeup and hairstyling was really quite, it's always a bit of a bun fight, but The Whale won that one, and I was thinking that it would be Elvis again. And also the best actress was very, very difficult because by rights everybody was saying

Angela Bassett should have won. But there's only one winner, and that's the way it has to be. So hopefully she will have another bite at the cherry, perhaps get an honorary Oscar or something like that, because she's an amazing, like Jamie LeCourte, she had an amazing body of work. And just very briefly from both of you, what about that beige carpet instead of a red carpet?

I thought it worked really well. It showed off the fashions and showed off the shoes. And yeah, it was champagne. Yeah, I know. I was about to say it wasn't really beige, it was champagne. Heidi, what about you? Yeah, I was fine with it too. Totally fine. Totally fine. Whatever speech may come there or indeed at the podium. Just on the prime aspect that we've been asking our listeners,

84844, because Michelle, you never let people tell you you're past your prime. Ladies in their prime, I believe we have different peaks at different ages. Attractiveness, achievements, challenges overcome can hit at any time. For me, my beauty has faded.

My tennis brilliance was in my 40s, but my creativity is hitting a mega high right now. There's no ceiling. I feel very powerful. Thank you for reading. Thank you for sending, Kate. I'm wondering what age you are. Let us know. And another person, anonymous. My prime is the rest of my life. Very good. Karen Krasanovic and speechwriter Heidi Ellert-McDermott. Thank you both so much for joining us on Woman's Hour.

Now, I want to turn to a study of new parents for the charity Lullaby Trust. It raises awareness of sudden infant death syndrome, so SIDS as it's also called. And it's found that nine in ten parents have slept alongside their baby, but only four in ten have been advised by a health professional on how to reduce the risk of cot debt, or SIDS as it's called. The survey found that more than 40% of parents admitted they'd fallen asleep with their baby in a potentially dangerous way, such as on a sofa or in an armchair.

And it can increase the risk of SIDS by up to 50 times, says the survey. Joining me now to discuss are Jenny Ward, Chief Executive for the Lullaby Trust. Also Dr. Steve Turner, Consultant Paediatrician at the Children's Hospital in Aberdeen. You're both very welcome to Woman's Hour. So Jenny, this is Safer Sleep Week. What message are you trying to get across? We're trying to get across the message that we need to talk about co-sleeping. I think in the

past people have assumed that the message is never co-sleep. And actually, I don't think we can get away with that anymore. As the survey shows, most families do end up sharing a bed with their baby at some point. And for a lot of those, it's accidental and it can be high risk. So if we talk about those high risk situations, hopefully we can get those numbers down. But really, the focus is on people that are co-sleeping accidentally? I think it's on everybody because I think that actually if those nine out of ten people, a lot of those were doing it accidentally. So only 9% have planned to co-sleep before their baby was born.

So we know what it's like when you've got a young baby. It's really tricky. You're juggling lots of different things. And I think people can end up in a situation where their baby is in bed with them and they're all asleep and they didn't realise that. So that's really what we want to talk about. Dr. Steve Turner, I mean,

what do paediatricians tell new parents about co-sleeping? Good morning, everybody. To be honest, paediatricians do not meet every parent and this is uh the the this advice is something that is given by midwives uh and by health visitors however if a pediatrician is asked by a parent usually as an aside when they're seeing the child for another reason they would stick to the uh the standard advice that i'm sure jenny um would very much agree with which is basically um lie baby on his back don't smoke um if you do co-share there's guidelines on the nhs website for how to do this but the specifically talking

about uh the co-sharing that the reason that the concerns are there is because of overlying, where parents who've taken alcohol or have taken drugs very sadly wake up in the morning and found that they've lain on the baby and the baby is no longer alive. That is a horrible situation to think about. But with this, I cold sleeping safe? You know we my little baby's 18 next week but we've got four children and my wife breastfed them good grief it's impossible not to bring your baby into bed particularly in these nice warm days cold days it's quite a nice sort of little hot water bottle so I think I think everybody every parent has at some stage brought their infant but let's talk about infants in the six months uh into bed with them at night uh i think that historically in the evolution of our species that's been commonplace practice

um i'm wondering jenny as well i mean dr. Steve is outlining some of the aspects as well. It could be, we'd say, if somebody particularly had a substance abuse problem or an alcohol problem, that this could be more likely to happen. Is there any particular outreach to those groups? Well, one thing I would say is that we shouldn't just assume that it's people who have a particular issue with substances or without actually if if your partner smokes or has just for one particular night uh smoked or if you've had one glass of wine you could be somebody who presumes they're really low risk and then you can become really high risk with one glass of wine or with you know one cigarette but also um so it's about assuming that every single night considering, actually, where's my baby going to go? Are they in the safest place possible?

And then for us, it's considering, have you got that separate sleep space ready for your baby? So in those nights, you stick them into there, you have a kind of internal alarm clock or alarm bell to say, hold on, this is high risk tonight. So I'm going to move my baby in those circumstances I think the advice is really make sure you've got a place for for your baby to sleep that's separate and get them into there and one of the things that we want to really talk about and there's new research that's come out just in safer sleep week today is that for high risk situations for high risk families what we need are professionals who know those families who can talk to them about their circumstance and have really open conversations. We don't want anybody to be hiding what they're doing because they're worried about getting told off.

We want to have an open conversation. We're saying, we know you do this. We're not saying never do it. What we're saying is actually, let's talk about it and let's see if we can reduce some of those risks. And do you think that there is a secrecy around it i think there has been in the past yeah i mean we've done similar surveys to this before and never had such high numbers of families saying that they openly saying that they co-sleep with their babies and a few years ago we did change our advice along with the nhs along with unicef's baby friendly initiative lots of different organisations to say, we should all be discussing co-sleeping

and we should all be talking about how beds can be made safer if a baby's in them. So I think there has been a bit of a shift. Unfortunately, it looks like at the moment, families aren't getting enough of that conversation. So let's talk about it here. Doctor, how can you make your bed safe, safer? So just to go of different,

there are different places that parents might sleep when they are exhausted with their baby. So the NHS advice, which sounds very reasonable, very realistic, says don't do it in a chair or a settee. So just to set the ground rules, those are areas where it's very much not advised to co-sleep with your infant under six months of age um if you are having your baby in your bed um there are a couple of situations where you should think carefully about not doing it if you've got a very small baby, as we've discussed,

there is no doubt that having more than two units of alcohol or having taken recreational drugs, it's not good for the parent and it's certainly not good for the baby. If, as a parent, you are taking medicines that make you drowsy, not a good idea to share your bed. But let's take all of those things out of the way. Make sure you've got a big bed uh if you have that luxury and the advice is get a firm mattress adults don't like firm mattresses that's the problem um but lie the baby on their back the temptation would be to create a

sort of fence of pillows around the baby that's not a good idea because as parents move around, those pillows might stop being fences and become ceilings. So don't create a fence using pillows or duvets. And the other thing just to bear in mind is sometimes toddlers tend to creep into bed as well. Try not to have too many people in bed. I think that's probably enough advice for the middle of the night. Oh my goodness. I think this will resonate with a lot of our listeners and I just want to put out there that I have so much sympathy for them with the tiredness,

particularly as a, you know, a parent of a newborn. I can't imagine how tired they are and the armchair might feel like the most comfortable thing going when they've been going all day with a new addition to the house. Jenny, how hopeful are you about getting this message out?

I have to say I was surprised by the nine and ten figure in your survey, that that amount of parents are co-sleeping. Yeah, I think it's, yes, it's a bit of a surprise for us, but not too much because I think as we've started as a charity to have more open conversations, people are saying, actually, I do this. And we have done research in the past where we've said, know do you know the advice and they say yes safer safer in the cot I don't bed share and then actually when we talk about bed sharing they all admit that they they do do that do we think we can make a difference yes we do because rates of SIDS

have come down dramatically since the early 1990s this is our one of our new challenges we need to reach those families that are really vulnerable. And I think we have got the medical bodies behind us. It's in NICE postnatal guidance. The RCM say there's lots of different people do. So that's midwives as well as health visitors. I think they're getting behind this. I think it's I know it's tricky for health professionals. I know they don't have much time with families, but actually those that are the most vulnerable, we know, so we know that SIDS is more likely to happen in deprived families.

And actually that's the case for most other types of child mortality. They're more likely to happen in deprived families. And we don't necessarily know the reason why, but what we do know is to say, okay, these are families that we need to spend a bit more time with and have a bit more of a conversation with.

And I see Dr. Steve Turner also nodding with that as he else but got in touch saying there's just not enough community midwives and health visitors. And just before I let you go, Jenny, what are the current stats for babies that die of SIDS? Currently, we're looking at around about 250 babies a year, so too many, really. We can get that down, though. So it's much rarer than it used to be, which is fabulous. But please do go and

whether you think you're going to go sleep or not, go and have a look at all the advice and make sure you know it and you follow it every night with your baby. Jenny Ward, Chief Executive for the Lullaby Trust and also Dr. Steve Turner, Consultant Paediatrician at the Children's Hospital in Aberdeen.

84844 if you want to chime in on that story or indeed about Michelle Yeoh's speech about never being past your prime. Don't listen to it if somebody tries to tell you it. Let me see, here's a text that came in. I'm 60 in May, reverted to my mother's maiden name at 58 to signal a new phase of life and I'm now enjoying trying my hand at university teaching leading a community woodland project and supporting vulnerable young adults I don't like in your prime though each phase of life has its great and not so easy elements

I'm trying to go with the subtle energy of a 59 year old not be more Amazonian than I was at 40 yeah what about that phrase in your prime? Some say they think Michelle Yeoh was having a dig at CNN anchor Don Lemon, who talked about women being in their prime in their 20s and 30s. And he was pushed back very much by his female co-presenters. He did apologise after that statement, but some people were tying the two together. 8-4, 8-4-4, do get in touch.

Right, here's another question for you. Would you swim topless in a public pool? Well, women in Berlin will be allowed to do so after a ruling by the city's authorities. It comes after a woman who was thrown out of an open-air pool for sunbathing topless took legal action. A second woman said

she was told to cover up while at an indoor pool in December. Let's bring in Jenny Hill, the BBC's Berlin correspondent, who's been following the story. Hi, Jenny. Good to have you on Woman's Hour. So how did this decision

come about exactly? Well, the first woman that you mentioned there, she was thrown out of an open air swimming pool for sunbathing topless. She actually tried to take legal action against the city and lodged a complaint. Then the second woman who was thrown out of an indoor swimming pool for swimming without a top on also lodged a complaint.

There was a big inquiry and the city authorities found that they had both been the victims of discrimination. Because actually, if you looked at the rules, the rules said, you just have to cover the genitals. But the rules were not clear that that applied to anybody, regardless of gender. So the assumption, of course, had been amongst, I guess, the authorities at the pools, but also perhaps many of the people using the pools, that they only applied to men. And so yeah, the pool authorities in Berlin have clarified the point. So, well, I haven't actually had a chance to go to the swimming pool over the weekend, so I can't tell you whether women are now swimming topless indoors. We'll have to wait and see. But

those are the laws or the rules now. I won't try and attempt the German word that I saw over the weekend, but I think it was the concept of free body culture. Freikörperkultur, yes. I've been practising. Yeah, it's very popular here. The notion that being naked in the right setting, you know, in certain public settings, maybe at the lake, in a sauna, for example, is not only appropriate,

but actually that it's healthy for you. You know, if you go into a sauna here and you attempt to wear only appropriate, but actually that it's healthy for you. You know, if you go into a sauna here and you attempt to wear a bathing costume, you'll be told off. It's considered very unhygienic. We'll overtide you if you forget a towel to sit on. That's a very different thing altogether. And so, I mean, I've seen, I can't tell you how much naked flesh I've seen in the near decade I've been here in Germany. It's considered just a very natural state to be in. And it can be very pleasant. You go to the lake on a hot day, you don't have to worry about not having a bathing costume with you, you can just jump straight in. And in many ways, I think it leads to quite a

healthy attitude towards bodies. I'm not saying that Germany is particularly sort of further advanced in this respect than perhaps the UK. But you know, when you do go to changing rooms, when you are out and about at the side of a lake, you become very aware very quickly that bodies come in all sorts of shapes and sizes and that time has its way with us all eventually. It sure does. Was there a debate over this or pushback since it's been decided? Well, there is a bit of a debate around whether this might stoke some tensions. Germany is a country which has seen a huge amount of immigration in recent years. A lot of people come from cultures where it is preferred that one covers up. So there have been some concerns raised that this might lead to flare-ups, in particular in indoor swimming pools.

Nothing's happened so far and I think overwhelmingly most people think you know this is the right way forward but yeah there is a little bit of a concern around that. Yes I'm just remembering do you remember that huge row in France over the Burkini of course so it does seem if an issue like this comes up it's usually not without debate. I do see a comment coming in. I would only swim topless if it was a woman-only session. I don't want the male glare or for it to be sexualised.

It's in Berlin, but it's not the only place. Do you think it'll go countrywide? Hard to say. I mean, if you are particularly keen to swim topless in a municipal pool, you can head to Göttingen in Lower Saxony

and Segan in North Rhine-Westphalia. They both made it possible last summer in response, I think, to similar complaints. It'll be interesting to see if it goes much further. You know, it's not dominating the headlines here, let's put it that way. Good to have you on, Jenny. Thanks so much for joining us

from Berlin. Right, we're talking about in our prime. Not physical prime we're talking about. We're kind of linking it to Michelle Yeoh. An old boss, loving this conversation about our prime, says one. I don't have a name. An old boss once told my 40

year old friend that she had not yet come into her prime. As a woman, her prime age is 46! Exclamation point. When she reminded him of this some years later, he told her, oh no, you missed it. A woman's prime is 42.

So random, she left that job, tripled her salary and travelled the world. We still laugh about it now. The conversations are taking place. 8-4, 8-4-4. I want to turn to a very particular woman. She lit up TV screens in the 80s and 90s. She only dated rock

stars. Then she embraced motherhood, built her own brand long before the Kardashians. She had a unique interviewing style on The Tube and then also on The Big Breakfast on Channel 4. She combined flirtatious charm, razor-sharp wit,

also ruthless at times. And her private life was splashed all over the tabloids. That included her relationships with Bob Geldof of the Boomtown Rats, also Michael Hutchence from the band In Excess. But her life did come to a tragic end. If you're from a certain area, you'll know who I'm talking about. If you're a little younger, you may not. But it's Polly Yates.

I want to bring you a little of her in full action first well here it is the studio where it's all going to be happening for the next five months you're going to be able to see live music interviews but you can tell that this is live television because i am sitting on my foot because i wasn't allowed to go to the loo before the show started however However, there are so many girls on tonight's show that even the crew came out of the pub early and the whole place has the overpoweringly erotic smell of brute. Is it true you had an affair with Prince? No, Prince has been an idol of mine. No. Oh, come on. No. This is a guest that has everything that a rock star needs to have. Danger, talent, curly hair and Australian subtlety.

And for the first time, this is a guest that I want to have my leg over. And it is, it's the fantastically talented Michael Hutchence. Hi. Were you always very forward? Am I forward? Well, a Hi. Were you always very forward? Am I forward? Well, a bit. And you're talking. Quite something, that clip of her and Michael Hutchins.

Well, a new documentary about the television presenter, and she was also a writer. It will air tonight and tomorrow night. The director of Paula, Charlie Russell, joined me a little earlier today and I asked him at the start of her TV career just how different she was to everyone who had gone before. The idea behind this came from the fact

that this year is the 40th anniversary of Channel 4. And if you look at those early recordings of the Tube, she's on in the very first week of their broadcast. And you're absolutely right. There's something about Paula that is incredibly just fresh and original. She is wittier. She is funnier. She's cheekier and naughtier than anyone else.

And I think she's really integral to the sort of DNA of the channel at that stage. She is doing something that is not expected. So we wanted to make this partly for a new generation of people who maybe don't even know who Paula is. But I think even more important to that, we wanted to challenge the narratives that kind of grew up around Paula, particularly sort of tabloid narratives that she was seen through.

Because with some of those tabloid narratives, it kind of, it went through an arc, I thought, watching your documentary, because when she started, her look was iconic. You know, the minute we think of her, we think of the short blonde hair, quite kind of punky, the bright lips, kind of 50s dresses at times, often very large and pink and over the top. You know, people were fascinated by her, whether they were men or women. But she seemed to be enjoying every minute of it, including the media attention. I think she is enjoying certainly having the time of her life, you know, presenting and interviewing some of the biggest stars on the planet at the time. But I think as time went on,

we realised how much that she was seen through sort of male eyes in many ways, you know, aggressive paparazzi male eyes, but also on screen, often quite sexualized eyes. So part of what we were trying to do was give her a bit of space to tell her story and to use a set of audio recordings that we found with her that hadn't been broadcast before to give her a voice in the telling of her own story. Well, let's hear a little bit from the documentary a little more. Paula talking with the journalist Martin Townsend. This is in 1998. I probably changed a lot with Michael because once I was with him the need to flirt which I had been kind of cornerstone of my personality and certainly the thing I was most famous for evaporated. Really? Why would I? You know I was with Michael. Yeah. Which is why it's sort of interesting when I was thinking I was going to start working again that

was something I was quite aware of because I wouldn't have all those kind of stupid girly tricks to fall back on anymore because they'd kind of gone. I was, you know, pushing 40. Four children. Very, very happy. I was kind of curious what it was going to be like to be working again without all of that stuff. So for those that don't know Pauli Yates,

it was such a big part of her presentation style, that flirting. I mean, when we look at old episodes of The Big Breakfast that she interviewed famous people lying down on a double bed to give our listeners an idea, Arnold Schwarzenegger, Kylie Minogue, the boys from Take That. And she used to get them to open up, had a relationship with Bob Geldof and then with Michael Hutchins, who she mentions there. And she was thinking about coming back to work without that flirtation aspect of it.

I mean, how do you see those two sides of Pauli Yates? She's a very skilled interviewer. And I think because the presentation of Lying on a Bed, as you say, was seen as slightly fluffy and a bit silly and a bit too flirty. I think we forget that actually what she's doing is getting the big stars of the day to completely open up and give incredibly good and revealing interviews. I think that's quite unparalleled at the time. But as you say, she also, you know, she becomes famous for her own life, her private life. And so there's a real complexity there as to sort of the different versions of womanhood that we're getting to see through Paula's story.

Yes, because she was famous for her home life, as you mentioned, she did, she was married to Bob Geldof, had three children with him. And she also had a child with Michael Hutchins. When you watch the On the Bed interview with Michael Hutchins from 1994, how would you describe it to our listeners? We forget how scandalous it was at the time. I think it was the most complained about bit of television. It was on Breakfast. There is obviously a real connection between them and she's lying with her legs wrapped around his. He actually looks quite nervous, I think, which is quite sweet. But there's no doubt, you know, as time went on, how much she loved Michael and how painful it was when she lost him. Paula Lost Custody of Her Children with Bob Geldof. And there is a chilling bit in the programme where she says that after she was accidentally sent her own obituary by one of the papers and the headline is Suicide Blonde. And that was something I had not heard before.

But it also, I think, begins to give an insight into how the press hounded her. I mean, how do you understand looking at it now, how she changed from a media darling, shall we say, to somebody who was really derided, the scorn that was heaped upon her is really quite shocking to watch where she was at, at that point in her life, particularly after Michael had hung himself? You can certainly see the media turning on her even before that. And I wonder whether that was because there was a sense that she had transgressed against her by leaving her husband, that she was becoming an older woman

and that what she'd got away with previously was uh becoming less acceptable um but also this is the mid 90s and the culture is getting meaner um you know if you think of sort of the directions it's going in terms of big brother and um you know sort of pop idol next factor that we are sort of being taught how to judge people and judge people through the tabloids. And she gets caught up in that. And it's really quite horrific and quite upsetting, just what she's put through.

And then, of course, as you say, she loses her partner, Michael Hutchins. And she, not long after, begins this series of interviews with Martin Townsend, the journalist. And you can hear, she's so honest and frank about how painful that is,

how upsetting that is. And I've never really heard anyone articulate grief in the moment in that way. But what's also really important in this documentary is that Paula got herself better. She, over a period of years, and supported by incredible friends, she did turn a corner. And often we haven't heard that narrative of Paula. We've been told that it was just the decline of a woman.

And so that was really important for the way that we wanted to tell her story. It is incredibly sad. She also talked about, I think, just as you're thinking about that changing of the culture, getting more judgmental, you know, she talks about up to 60 paparazzi or reporters outside her house, for example. She was somebody who perhaps we could even think of as the original influencer,

having a brand, Polly Gates, whether it was perfume or lingerie or books, of course, that she was all part of. It was a very kind of big industry around her. When you look at it from there until now, and I know you have made documentaries by Caroline Flack and also Amy Winehouse, what do you think it tells us about our culture and the media? Well, it's, I mean, you know, it's not a great one to be a woman in, certainly not a woman in the public eye. and partly we wanted to go

back and chart this story that you know starts in the 80s and goes through the 90s and onwards um she was certainly paula was someone who was navigating those early days of what it's like to be in the press um and you know there's aspects that she absolutely enjoyed. And, you know, as you say, it was sort of setting the terms of how you could be a celebrity and what you could do with that, what you could sell, what your brand would be. and she can be writing books about motherhood and she can be holding the state to account for the lack of affordable childcare for mothers and fathers. And then she can also be a sexy rock chick and the party-loving partner of a rock star. And she can be intellectual and she can be silly. And in later years, she can be messy.

She can be very open about what's going on in her life. And I think the complexities is what is really important about her. And at the time, I don't think media allowed that complexity. Yeah, she definitely was not one dimensional. There are no interviews with the Geldofs or with Jules Holland, who was her co-presenter on The Tube and Friend. Did you approach them? Well, we spent a long time developing this and sort of trying to speak off camera to as many people as possible. And what was important to us, you know, as well as hearing from, you know, everyone who wanted to appear in the documentary.

What was most important is that this was Paula's story and that it wasn't navigated. Well, it was just navigated through her eyes as much as possible. And that period at the end, which we mentioned, was so sad. She did, as we spoke about, turn to drink and drugs for a time, but was getting her life back on track. People said she was so happy at that particular point and seemed to be really in a better place when she died in 2000. The coroner recorded a verdict and it was death after non-dependent abuse of drugs. So she had taken heroin after being clean for a period of time and it was too difficult for her body to deal with

it was the understanding that I got. But you know a lot of young people don't know who she is which kind of surprised me because she was such a big deal for many of us in the 80s in particular and the 90s. What do you think her legacy is? Well, I think her legacy has been muddied by the perception that what happened to her was in some way her fault. And I think that's absolutely awful. So I hope that what our documentary shows is that her legacy should be so much more than that. It should be more than her death and that she was and should be an absolute icon um she's so fabulous she will make you laugh and she'll make you she'll break your heart that was charlie russell and the documentary paula about paula yates is in two parts which

airs tonight and also tomorrow at 9 p.m on channel four just struck there about you know as she, she was talking about pushing 40 as if that was also something about being in your prime or not in your prime. And we've been asking you today about what does being in your prime even mean following Michelle Yeoh's speech at the Oscars.

She did say, don't let anyone tell you you're past your prime, never give up. You have got in touch. Here's one. I'm 64, traditionally built and I love swimming, sunbathing, topless, and making the most of being invisible and past my prime. Ha, they can't have it every way. Somebody else says, if my breasts were still in their prime, I would certainly swim topless.

That's not another. Prime. I am 65 and still 33 in my head. 8-4, 8-4-444 if you want to get in touch. Right, I want to turn to an issue that divides opinion. Abortion. You'll know that in June last year, the US Supreme Court overturned Roe v. Wade,

the law that had made abortion a constitutional right for Americans for nearly half a century. Now that was a change supported by some. And since the court's ruling, a dozen states have made abortion illegal and many others have restricted it. But for others, it was a major step back. And now five women say they've been denied abortions despite risks to their lives and they are suing the state of Texas. And joining me now to tell us more about the case and we'll also talk about a second development when it comes to this story about widely used abortion pills.

It's the BBC reporter in Washington, Holly Hundrick. Good to have you with us, Holly. Hi, thank you. Good morning. So let's talk about these particular women who have come together to sue the state of Texas. Why? So these five women and the legal group that is backing them, a pro-choice group, say they are the first pregnant women to ever sue a state following the overturn of Roe v. Wade. They're suing the state because they say they were denied necessary medical care after being told that their fetuses would not survive. Now, Texas has a very strict ban. It bans abortion in all cases, no exceptions for rape or incest. They have a small exception, I should say, for medical emergencies, but they say that wasn't enough.

And they were still denied that medical care despite their fetuses being about to die. Well, medical exceptions, how is that defined? It seems, according to these women and two doctors who joined them in their suit, that in practice that means the fetus's heart has to have stopped beating and the women have to be facing immediate death, immediate peril. So in one case of these five women, a woman named Amanda, she was forced to wait until her body entered sepsis, also known as blood poisoning, and was rushed to the ER. At that point, doctors went in and performed what was an abortion. But you really need to be on the brink of death, these women say, before anyone will intervene. So what did these women do in their particular cases? It's a mix. One was forced to stay. And again, she waited until her body was

sort of in a very, very bad spot. The other four traveled outside of their state, then to Colorado, where abortion is still very much legal. But they say it was a harrowing experience having to get on planes, basically in the middle of a miscarriage, and seek the care that was not offered at home. What was interesting about this as well, apart from the fact that these are

perhaps very different individuals than are sometimes advocating for a change in the law as they are now pregnant one perhaps with a fatal fetal diagnosis inside Texas as we're hearing there but there are also two doctors which are part of the lawsuit talk tell us about them. Yeah so they've joined the women and they're sort of adding to sort of a legal way of the case to say doctors are scared even though it says on the books that we can form abortions in, quote, medical emergencies. Doctors don't know what that means. They're too scared to get sued.

They could face 99 years in jail in Texas, fines of hundreds of thousands of dollars and lose their medical license. So they're saying in our field, no one knows what's going on. And doctors are too scared to step in, even when it is allowed to the letter of the law. But do we know how many women, for example, have been denied abortions under this medical exception? No, I think that'd be too hard to say. I think what we do know is that, you know, 13 states in America now ban abortion outright. Right. That's more than half of the country's women of reproductive age. So I think we can assume through there that women are falling through the cracks. I was in Kentucky back in November during the midterms and I met a woman who was campaigning against an anti-abortion referendum.

And she had just found out she had a fetal anomaly. And in her view, she had to leave the state. There was not going to be the care she needed in time in her state. But those numbers have just not come out yet. It's too soon to say. So what exactly are they looking for with this lawsuit? I mean, what is the change that they want or the language that they might be looking for? It's actually quite narrow. They just want the clarification so that doctors know they can

step in when fetuses will not survive and women are in dangerous situations. They're not asking for the law to be repealed just to be clarified. And the lawyers accompanying the women say this is the letter of the law. We're not asking for a change. We're asking for a clarification. But this is just in the state of Texas, but could it have wider ramifications? I think it will be a sign. I mean, the reproductive access group that's backing these women, they're nationwide. Frankly, the trick is to, the issue is to find women to file these suits. And a question was put to them when they were in Texas, you know, are there other suits

sort of brewing in the other 12 states without right bands? And they indicated that, yes, they were sort of looking out for that. Just a matter, I guess, of finding the women who are willing to put themselves forward through a legal suit after a rather harrowing medical ordeal. And I suppose with these five women, it's individual cases, but there's kind of that unifying lawsuit for what they're asking for. And I'm wondering what the reaction has been in Texas, just as divided as it usually is when it comes to abortion? I think these women are really powerful cases because they are not, as you said, the women we think of maybe stereotypically as those seeking abortion. These women wanted these pregnancies. They were devastated to lose their fetuses. It was a very emotional day as they each got up and talked about

just their heartbreak and the trauma of losing their babies. I think they're going to be sort of hard to disagree with. Texas is pretty divided, but the country as a whole has been very consistent over many years, about 61 percent of the majority of Americans do support abortion access. And I think they'll be very compelled by these women's cases. I understand. What has happened so far? I'm just wondering when it when it comes to the lawsuits, because it is a state, of course, that favours strong abortion laws. And even though these stories might, you know, that people might have sympathy

for these particular women, I doubt it would actually change the feeling within the state when it comes to abortion laws. Yeah, I mean, the Texas legislature is controlled entirely by republicans their governor's republican the chief legal officer is republican so i would agree i don't see unless there's some challenge related to the state's constitution that's been successful in some conservative states

i do not see this ban being overturned although i think it's possible there might be an exception according to these women right right, lawmakers are not healthcare providers, they're not doctors. There are some maybe details they wouldn't have known. This is a very male-dominated legislature. Do they understand that miscarriages often result in abortions as medical care? I don't know. So those nuances might be worked out, but to your point, no, this ban is staying in place. I want to turn to one aspect as well of abortion, and that is a case in Texas where a ruling is expected soon, as I understand it, involving a challenge by anti-abortion groups

against the use of a key abortion drug. It had been approved by the Food and Drug Administration over 20 years ago. Can you talk us through that? Absolutely. We know now there's going to be hearing in two days on Wednesday. It was a very conservative judge. A Trump appointed judge is going to be overseeing this case. As you said, someone's looking to withdraw FDA approval for Mifepristone, which is one of the two drugs used for this abortion pill regime. So based on his leanings, his writings in the past about abortion, it's very clear he is a very anti-abortion judge. But I should say legal experts, the attorney general of the U.S. has said

an individual judge cannot just withdraw approval of a drug that's been in place for 20 years. But again, all eyes will be on Texas on Wednesday for yet another abortion battle. And if it did go in their favor? That's really unclear because I think they believe the people bringing the lawsuit who want to withdraw approval believe they can just unilaterally take away approval for a drug countrywide. But lawyers, you know, the U.S.'s chief legal officer who's also fighting this case, they say that's not possible. It's sort of unprecedented.

So genuinely, we'll have to wait until Wednesday to see how it all plays out. But you do expect a decision on that on Wednesday? We're going to have a hearing. And then after that point, he can decide at any time he'd like. And just in our last 15 seconds, I was wondering, there is a second abortion drug as well, misoprostol. Why has that not been targeted?

I believe it's because it's used for other conditions beyond pregnancy. And I think that's why anti-abortion advocates try to steer clear of it because it's a bit more grey area for them. Whereas misoprostone is the one that's most clearly used for abortions. So a lot happening in the state of Texas. Let's see what the ramifications might be. Holly Hundrick, thank you so much. The BBC's reporter joining us from Washington DC. We've been talking about being in your prime. You have got in touch and my prime always starts tomorrow, says Frances, who is

age 70. I'm 47 and graduating from drama school this year in my prime, says Georgie. Hello, I definitely still feel in my prime. I'm 61 and run my own beauty business. I feel my younger clients like the fact that I am older as I bring experience

and an inner confidence. I totally agree with Michelle Yeoh. Never let anyone say you are past your prime. Thank you so much for listening to us on Woman's Hour. I'll talk to you tomorrow. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. Hello, I'm Nao and I am so pleased to be back for Series 2

of the Music and Meditation Podcast. When I'm lying down, my eyes are closed and my hands on my heart. That's kind of who I am. I feel like I could speak to you all day. It's always a good sign. If you're curious about meditation and how it can help you, then this is the podcast for you. Allow your body to relax.

Notice your breath in this moment. Tune into my series, the Music and Meditation Podcast on BBC Sounds. Hit subscribe now to get new episodes as soon as they're released. Imagine if you just listened to that every single day, every morning. There's no way your life couldn't change. No, of course. I'm Sarah Trelevan, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies.

I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby.

It's a long story, settle in. Available now.