Woman's Hour - Katarina Johnson-Thompson, IVF pioneer, Age of consent in Iraq, Primary School suspensions

Episode Date: November 21, 2024

Katarina Johnson-Thompson is the double World and double Commonwealth Games heptathon champion. This year she won the Olympic silver medal in Paris, her first ever Olympic medal. Katarina joins Anita Rani to talk about her new book, Unbroken, in which she opens up about the pressures of representing Great Britain as a 19 year old at the London 2012 Olympics, her complex relationship with her mentor-turned-rival Jessica Ennis-Hill, and the relentless resilience and determination she has shown in coming back from career-threatening injuries.BBC analysis suggests that the rate at which primary school pupils are being suspended from state schools in England has more than doubled in a decade. Permanent exclusion rates of primary-age pupils have also gone up, by almost 70% in the same period. Campaigners say children excluded from school at a young age experience long-term impacts. It's worth also stating that nearly 90% of those permanently excluded over the past five years also had special educational needs and disabilities (SEND). The government has acknowledged the situation is at "crisis point", and says it is determined to "drive up standards" in schools. Anita spoke to Lydia, whose son Eddie has been suspended from school 14 times this year, and Vanessa Longley, chief executive of the charity Chance UK, a charity which supports primary-aged children.The Iraqi Parliament is currently considering an amendment to personal status law that in effect could remove protections for women and lower the legal age of marriage to nine. There could also be changes to a women's right to divorce, child custody and inheritance. Joining Anita to discuss these proposals are Caroline Hawley, the BBCs Diplomatic correspondent, and Sarah Sanbar, Iraqi researcher for Human Rights Watch.A new Netflix film tells the story of the invention of IVF, and the woman whose contribution to this world-changing discovery has been largely forgotten, embryologist Jean Purdy. Award-winning actress Thomasin McKenzie talks to Anita about portraying Jean, and her two decades of acting, despite only being 24 years old.Presenter: Anita Rani Producer: Rebecca Myatt

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Anita Rani and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Good morning, welcome to the programme. We will be hearing from a superhuman today, Olympian Katerina Johnson-Thompson. Her very honest memoir, Unbroken, is out today. She'll be joining me to tell us what it takes to reach the highs of medals and victories and the lows of injury. Now, if I was to say the name Jean Purdy, would you know who I was talking about? Well, she's arguably responsible indirectly for the birth of at least

12 million babies. She was the British nurse who was part of the team who developed IVF technology. A new film called Joy, telling her story, story is coming out on Netflix and I'll be joined by the actor Thomasin McKenzie who is playing Jean. Also the Iraqi parliament is currently considering lowering the age legal age of marriage to nine. We'll be finding out what is being discussed and why. And the number of primary school children who are being suspended from state schools in England has more than doubled in the last 10 years. That's according to research conducted by the BBC. So this morning, I would like to hear from you if this is your experience.

Has your child been excluded? What impact did it have on them, on you? Maybe they were excluded a long time ago as it happened recently. Whatever your experience of this, get in touch with the programme. We we would love to hear from you the text number is 84844 you can also email me via our website or whatsapp the program on 03700 100 444 that text number once again 84844 but first great britain's katrina john-Thompson is the double world champion and double Commonwealth Games heptathlon champion and this year won the at the London 2012 Olympics, her complex relationship with her mentor-turned-rival Jessica Ennis-Hill, and the relentless resilience and determination she showed to come back from her career-threatening injuries. And I'm delighted to say she joins us now from our Salford studio.

Good morning. Welcome to Woman's Hour. Good morning. Thanks for having me. It's great. Absolutely our pleasure. First of all, congratulations, I must say, on your Paris Olympics success. I'm going to start by just asking you how that moment felt. Yeah, no, thank you so much. It felt like such a, I think, like coming of age moment for me. You know, I have four attempts at an Olympics. I've been to the Olympic Games four times now, which is, is like I feel like a huge achievement I remember

being in 2016 and normally when you get when you represent Team GB they give you like a little medal and depending on how many times you've been at the games you get like that number I remember the people who had only been there once who only have won and then some people who have four and five they were like the archers who were like late into the 50s and 60s. So it feels like a long time coming for me and I was so happy to come away with that medal, you know, after so many times of trying. Well, it was an amazing moment, Katerina, and a very proud moment for all of us watching.

I want to take it back because your memoir's out and it's an amazing book because it's so vulnerable and so raw, but also really gets us to understand what it takes to be you so I'm going to start at the beginning you were born in Liverpool tell us a bit about growing up there and your love of the city and football yeah no I'm born in Liverpool um my my mum and my whole family lived there I'm half Bahamian but I was brought up in Liverpool you know in the absolute cold I know it'm half Bahamian, but I was brought up in Liverpool, you know, in the absolute cold. I know it's freezing today and sometimes I wish I was living in the Bahamas with my other side of the family.

But yeah, Liverpool is my home. It still is my home to this day. I love the city. And yeah, I started out doing dancing at first and then joined the Liverpool Harriers, just going into senior school. So leaving year six and didn't really look back there. And you started dancing because your mum was a dancer right and that's how your parents met can you tell us that story? Yeah so she was a sort of yes she was a dancer and she travelled the world with a group called the Bluebells and she was like a sort of show girl where they did the can-can and they did shows and it was all extravagant and

there was feathers and she would do that show in all different countries and um that show got taken to the Bahamas and yeah that's how she met my dad who was a doorman at one of the events that she was performing in and she wanted you to be a dancer she wanted me to have a hobby um at the start of my life she you know wanted me to be a dancer ultimately she put me in in ballet shoes from the moment I could start walking and I was out to nappies um and then I did modern tap and ballet um I did that for as long as she could bribe me to do it until I finally like grew up and said listen I I'm not enjoying it I want to be like out of pink I want to run on the field and just like get muddy and stuff so she said okay you need

a hobby basically you can't just do education without something something else going for you so we went through a number of different things like football keyboard lessons and eventually I found athletics. What was it about athletics in particular? I think it was just I was just good at it I think I was the tallest in the class. So naturally they put me into the high jump and that was something that I was able to do naturally. My mum makes claim that she was the one who sort of, when you do ballet, you know, do all the jumps and like you can kind of call it plyometric training

to engage. But she says I developed my springs from there. So she takes claim for my high jump ability. Do you give her the climb as well? she get the credit I think so yeah I think and I have got half you know half air genetics too so I think she gets credit for any ability I do you said you're tall six foot tall and you won the school champs aged 11 uh yeah yeah it was a catholic school champs and then the the champion of champions I always remember that was like all the champions from all over Liverpool used to come and claim the major title. And that was one of the biggest titles I won.

And that gave me the flavour. Yeah, the taste of success at such a young age. Yeah, I remember it was a one. I don't know if this means anything to anyone, but it was a one metre 32 high jump, which with no training. Sometimes I look at it now and think how did I get over that when I was only in year six. Amazing so when did the heptathlon come along and why did you decide to focus on that? So I did my my that that competition and then I wanted to to join the Harriers. I joined the Harriers sorry after that competition and once I was there me and my mum used to have to travel to get there

so we used to have to travel by bus and then we used to have to walk through a park and by the time we got there and she used to meet me off school meet me off the bus off school with all my kit and it was like, oh well why not not waste our time here just doing high jump like let's join the running club as well

and then we just started adding more and more events on and I just loved, loved just being at the track down there racing just like being competitive um and yeah and then eventually you you don't compete for the school you compete for the club and then eventually you compete for your county and then eventually you compete for your country and then eventually you know you just work your work your way up. You're winning medals in Paris. Now, I couldn't wait to get into your memoir, Katerina, because I'm fascinated by what it takes to become an elite athlete like yourself and the sort of psychology. And I always wonder, where does that come from? What is the point where we see it?

And there's something in the book that you talk about a friend of yours who was also very good at athletics. And this is when you were a real little kid, had joined the Harriers before you. And wasn't there just a urge in you that you wanted to do it too? That sort of competitive spirit that if she's joined, I want to join too. Yeah, it was, it was, I think when my mum had that realisation that she couldn't force something that I didn't want to do on me. She, you know, she used to bribe me to go to dance lessons every single week. And when I heard that this girl who I used to sort of like fight to be like, I'm the fastest in the class, I'm the fastest girl in the school. Like we used to always have these battles and she ultimately joined the Harriers and she phoned me as a way of like I don't run

for the school anymore I run for a club like we went to different secondary schools and I remember she she called up the landline that's how long ago it was and I remember putting the phone down and just saying to my mum right we're going we're going to the Harriers and I was forcing her to take me and she said that's when she realized that like she she you can't force someone to do something that they don't love and you know you can you can develop or nurture passions that your children have and she wishes she put me in it from when I started in year three but it was then that sort of turning of the tides where I was like really enthusiastic and wanted to go to these you know extracurricular activities and making your own choice um but back to the heptathlon for listeners

who aren't familiar with it how does it it work? How many events are there? So it's based on athletics events and it's split into two days. There's seven different events of a range of like running, throwing and jumping. So we start with the hurdles, going to high jump. Then we have a shot put event, which is you throw in a 4k ball as far as you can and then it's a 200 meters which is half a normal athletics track on day two um that's the long jump javelin and 800 and each of these events give you like you can you don't win in each event that doesn't really matter it's like the point score so you could get like a really big high jump and get a point score and your mark is given a set of points and whoever has the most points at the end of the two days ultimately wins.

And the 800 is the final event and that's two laps of the track where everyone knows how many seconds they need to beat the other person by. And it's sort of a little rat race. And you've got to be good at all of it. You didn't just pick one event. Like, I'm just going to focus on the one. It's like, I'm just going to at all of it um you didn't just pick one event like i'm just gonna focus on the one it's like i'm just gonna do all of it sounds like a lot of pressure

it's got to that stage now i think there was like a joke going around years and years ago of like jack of all trades master of none but now i think you have to be at least like master of three to have a chance or in your case all um you you've been incredibly honest and vulnerable in this book um it makes it a really uh fascinating read um also must make you feel a certain way now knowing that the book's out today but how in the you describe how body image became a real challenge for you explain how that started yeah you know it is being i i'm struggling being in like such a vulnerable position because normally when i'm putting myself in a vulnerable position it's like due to athletics performance yeah um and you know that's just part and parcel of what I do but I feel like in my sort of industry there's not a

lot of vulnerability because you have to seem strong in order to win medals or to your competitors and you have to go out there and put on a front face so it's like you know part of the reason why I wanted to do it because there's a lot of you know unspoken things that happen in athletics that you know I don't think people have enough support for yeah um but the body image run is one of my favorite chapters and and that's something that you know I struggled with growing up on in two in two folds like one is like the exterior of like how you look to other people or how you look to performance or even when you're growing up in those teenage years, how you look to boys. But then I struggled with my body through the second half of my career through, you know, just like being injured and hating it, not being able to do what I wanted to do in terms of

performance. Which is incredible to read about because for those of us mere mortals who watch you you are so strong and sort of epitomize you know that an incredible female body if you like because of what you do oh no thank you it's um it's something that yeah I struggled with at the start so in that 2012 um championship olympic games that I went to I was only 19 years old and you know I was still growing into my body I was still really self-conscious and and you realize that you know you're you're out there in in almost underwear in front of 80,000 people in the stadium and then millions of people at home and it it was it was sort of I don't know how you call it is it shock therapy or inversion therapy where it's just like once you do that then it's just like well what else what else is there to do

I'm thrown in the deep end. But yeah, it was really, you know, anxiety-inducing in the lead up to those games, knowing that so many eyes would be on you, you know. You also talk about the many struggles you've had with serious injury, often very publicly at major championships, most recently at the 2020 Tokyo Olympics. And the bit that struck me about that was how you talk about it sort of destroyed your relationship with the sport a bit, but also people's reaction to that. And you say people kept saying how brave you were to get up and sort of refuse the wheelchair.

But you said it's the bit before and the bit after that's the courageous bit. Will you explain a bit more about that? Yeah, for sure. I think in the lead up to the it was it was 2021 I wish it was 2020 Olympic Games because everything would have been so much easier if if the games happened when they were meant to be if COVID didn't happen and unfortunately in the the lead up to to that I ruptured my Achilles um in December 2020. That's when I was kind of like sort of in the shape of my life. It was my first world championship win in 2019. And then coming away from that,

it was just meant to sort of roll right through and have a fair shot at an Olympic medal. But unfortunately, I ruptured my Achilles, which is one of the biggest, most serious injuries that you can have as an athlete. And it was on my takeoff leg for someone who was based as a presumably jumper in my heptathlon. It was such a big, you know, sucker punch to have. I fought so hard to get back to that start line. in those eight months, it was, it was really a rough time to, to hold all of these like,

anxieties about like, oh, so many questions, sorry, about like, what's going to happen? And can I do it? And is it possible? So to get there and have all those questions, then reversed on the other leg that ended up didn't, the other leg in the games, unfortunately, I ended up injuring. So, yeah yeah it was like something like I was in that sort of mentality where life isn't fair and I think I didn't like sports because it didn't feel like hard work equals success which is why you know always thought like if I keep honest in my training and work hard then I'm gonna get something out of it and then nothing really made sense to me after those games. So how do you come back from that? I think I needed that in a way to and I know it

sounds really cliche but I needed that in a way I needed to step out of that mentality that my life is just athletics and I think to fall out of love with the sport and realize that that's not your personality like I've been doing athletics since like year six so I think in order for me to be like I'm done with this I don't like athletics that's not me I found myself as a person as opposed to me just being an athlete who was just trying to win and chase the high of of that Olympic Games that I had in 2012 and you know I had to break a lot of things down in terms of, like, my personality. I've had a lot of help, but I think ultimately the team who I surrounded myself with in the last couple of years

have given me that second wind and, yeah, found who I truly am. And, I mean, it's incredible what you've had to go through. I mean, did you have a lot of psychological support? You must have just had to take it right back to basics. you know in in my career like like I said it's it was Catherine the athlete so if I had a therapist it was a sports therapist and it was just about performance so I was fortunate enough to you know find a therapist away from and and start therapy and and find that sort of side to me where it's like why do I react like this and asking questions that I needed to answer instead of just relating it to sports my whole life has just been about sports sports sports so I'm so lucky to be able to you know have a lot of the questions on

identity and and who I am just kind of like answered and just understand how my brain works a lot better and that's through the help of my therapist therapist and and maybe your friends as well because you talk about your close group of friends who you've known since school which I love because I've still got my crew of friends who I've known since I was at school and one of them is the actor Jodie Comer how important are they to you and also can is it fair that you can have two such hugely successful, amazing women? Maybe there's something because you're two mates. Do you encourage each other? I just want an insight into this brilliant relationship.

And also, can we all just come and hang out with you? No, my friends have been, I'm so fortunate to have a group of friends that I've had since, you know, that year seven and year eight in secondary school. And I know that that's quite rare. So I've been quite protective of that friendship. And, yeah, we still, you know, go on group holidays together. We've just recently been on a getaway, like, last month. And it feels so nice to just connect to the people who know you from, you know, that such young age.

And Jodie is someone who inspires me sort of every single day, like what she's done with her career. And she's someone who has shone bright, you know, since for as long as I've known her. And I'm so happy that the world is now getting to see her shine as bright as we've always, you know, seen her shine. Wonderful. And we do love that girl support here, that sisterhood support, where you were both very driven friends when you were quite young as well, both very focused. I think we both, like I said, we both knew what we wanted to do from such a young age and and and I'm we I feel so grateful to have known and seen her journey and and seen her do

what she said she was gonna you know do and and and yeah and and thankfully you know yeah I'm I'm she's been there to support me at my lowest moments too so I'm really grateful for that friendship your lowest moments and then your your comebacks as well I mean getting back into the sport and then winning the silver medal in Paris I mean what was that feeling like it was um it was I I always come away from the Olympics and I in the past I've always had this sort of like sad feeling and I've always thought it was connected with not winning or not doing as well as I should have. Whereas this time I came away from the Olympics and I had that same feeling and I didn't know what it was connected with because I was so, so happy and grateful for my silver medal. And I think now that I've like had time to reflect on it, it's like I love the journey and I really mourned the journey

that was over and what I've had since the last Olympics and the team who have surrounded myself with this Olympics it's been so refreshing and it's been so nice and it's been like we've just been chasing success and we've been chasing and and this journey has meant so much to me and I've been really sad that this little part is over um but I I had so so so much fun and the memories that I'll cherish forever not just like going out there and doing the performance but like the the the quiet times when we were just me and my coach were in the restroom or me and my family like met afterwards and had a meal like it's these memories for me is is why why I do it and what it's for so what's next I'm back in training I'm back in training um the next thing I'm doing is the is just the next championship so we're

going to be back in Tokyo next year for the world championships and that's in September and I really really would like better memories from this stadium better pictures and we look forward to it we look forward to it katarina thank you so much uh for joining me on woman's hour this morning and best of luck with the book thank you so much uh it's out now her book unbroken my journey from despair to glory it's out today that was katarina johnson thompson 84844 is the number to text now bbc analysis suggests that the rate at which primary school pupils are being suspended from state schools in England has more than doubled in a decade.

Permanent exclusion rates of primary aged pupils have also gone up by almost 70% in the same period. Campaigners say children excluded from school at a young age experience long-term impacts. It's worth also stating that nearly 90% of those permanently excluded over the past five years have also had special educational needs and disabilities or SEND. The government has acknowledged the situation is at crisis point and says it's determined to drive up standards in schools. I spoke to Lydia, whose son Eddie has been suspended from school 14 times this year, a little earlier. She began by telling me all about Eddie.

My son Eddie has had sort of behavioural issues since he was about three. Obviously, there was a lot of things going on in the world. There was COVID and we'd moved house. We were renovating and at the time we kind of thought, well, he's going through a lot of change. He started to have issues at school with kind of struggling with relationships and regulation and sort of throwing things and hitting people. And at the time, you know, you put it down to things at home

and it continued and we kind of pushed to start investigating for autism and ADHD. And then as he progressed through to reception, he started getting regularly excluded. So the sort of fixed term exclusions, but they'd happen kind of one on top of another. And at the time, we were so desperate for change, but the exclusions were just exasperating behaviour because he was so dysregulated.

We managed to get some support, we got play therapy and the school managed to get some external support in, but there was just so much more underlying. So we got accepted on the NHS for a diagnosis in around January time. Can I ask what that diagnosis is? Autism. So, but the waiting list for that is over sort of 30 months. So we had to look at another kind of route to get the diagnosis. But at the time you're in limbo because you don't have a diagnosis.

The behaviour keeps happening. The exclusions keep happening. So he got diagnosed with autism in august and we felt like it was going to be a real turning point for us then we'd be able to get more support but he went back in september and within a couple of weeks he got excluded again um so so how old is eddie now he's so he's just turned six so six. So he's only six. Okay. Yeah. So these all happened when he was five. And so in his short time in education, could you give us a figure of how many times he's been sent home or excluded, suspended? Yeah. He's had 14 fixed term exclusions. And what happens then,

if you don't mind Lydia talk us through the process like because you work? Yeah so I was working um so you get a phone call saying you need to come to school and most times I'd turn up you know I turned up and he'd be surrounded by chairs and he was it was like he was a caged animal he was in such a terrible place and I'd have to kind of try and get him out of the building be handed a letter and he'd be at home but for him he he just felt like he just didn't even understand what was going on why he was being punished because he didn't understand the behaviour, didn't understand why it happened. And what did the school say to you? You know, sometimes it was...

..just felt blamed that there was no cause for his behaviour, that he had chosen to act out that way. And I'm not excusing his behaviour, but to me, you know, I know my child. I live with him. And I know that when he acts out that way, it never got that bad at home. There would always be a cause to it.

Something would have happened. There would have been an array of things that had got him to that point. And that's why I was so desperate to try and make things change it's a vicious cycle yeah 14 times is a lot isn't it I mean did you get what kind of conversations were you having with the school about his behavior and what and how you they could support you and him um so they were putting strategies in place as much as they could

but he was at the time he was at a large school with 30 children in a class with normally, you know, only a couple of members of staff. So his triggers just they couldn't pick them up in time. And obviously, you know, I know it's spoken about widely, but to get an EHCP, you need evidence. Exclusions sometimes are part of that evidence um trying to get things in place to contribute to the evidence like getting external support behavior support in but all of that takes time so you're desperately trying to stop exclusions from happening because they're having such an impact on your child I mean for Eddie it's impacted his mental health hugely in what way um so his self-esteem his you know he doesn't want to go to school he's got a lot of separation

anxiety um and so what does all of this do for you what does it do to you oh it's absolutely traumatic it's so traumatic you feel you before his diagnosis, I just was constantly on courses trying to figure out, you know, do I need to quit my job? I was, you know, hanging on a string with my job anyway, and they were incredible. But how long can you carry on saying to your boss, sorry, I can't do this meeting. I can't do this. I have to have a day off. You're just desperate for things to change and to get support. So we have recently, after the last exclusion, I took him out of school because he just was completely refusing. And I just knew how much it was impacting him. And I knew that, you know know he's susceptible to mental health issues more because he has autism anyway so I needed to protect him and he is now in a smaller school

a much smaller school with better staff to people ratio and there has been a huge change but because of everything that's happened every day is a battle to get him into school. We have to create new strategies every single day. It's exhausting. How do you feel about the future? Are you worried? Yeah, very worried. You know, I feel like is he ever going to be able to cope in an education setting?

Do I need to home educate him? Because at least he'd be more regulated and able to learn um I do you know I feel much more hope him being in the new setting but I don't know everything you do especially you know he's my first child you have to learn all of this along the way no one gives you a guidebook to say okay in this situation this is what support your child can get or what they need or this is a type of school that would benefit them no one tells you that everyone sort of says oh well maybe that would be better or you know little snippets of suggestions or people feel like they can't say anything because they feel like if they do they're

pushing you out of the school does that make sense yeah so you're just constantly second guessing trying to figure out what the right thing to do is we've been told that even if he gets an EHCP he probably won't get much funding so there wouldn't be any like much more additional support because academically he and you know he presents as though he can manage, if that makes sense. Yeah. But then he becomes a completely different person when he's so dysregulated. It's a lot. It's a lot for you.

Yeah. Absolutely. How is he today, I should ask? How is he getting on today? I actually got him into school well today. So we've just started trying to get him into breakfast clubs so that he has huge overwhelm trying to go into a class. So that worked well today.

Lydia there talking about her son Eddie and their experience. She mentioned an EHCP. That's an Educational Health and Care Plan in England. It's a legal document following a formal assessment. This means that legally your local authority must provide the provision agreed in your child's plan. While listening to that was Vanessa Longley, chief executive of the charity Chance UK, a charity which supports primary aged children. Morning, Vanessa. What's your reaction to Lydia and Eddie's story? Good morning. I wish Lydia and Eddie's story was a rare one, but it's a story I hear all too often.

And one of the things I'd like to say via here is if Lydia is listening, it's just a reminder that this is not your fault. It is not Eddie's fault. We know that 97% of the children that get excluded from primary school have a special educational need or disability. These are our most vulnerable children in the classroom. And if we could just get the support in early, then we could help these children thrive and flourish in that classroom environment. And I am just so sorry to Lydia and Eddie

that we didn't get to you in time. What's your reaction to the statistics that I started talking about at the beginning of this that permanent exclusion rates for primary age pupils has gone up by almost 70%? Yeah I'm and again we are seeing this at Chance UK we see it every day and it's sadly not a surprise this is it's never been easy growing up but this generation are the generation that has dealt with the social isolation of COVID at a really key point in their development. And those early signs of struggles perhaps were missed or even they were seen. The really long waiting lists.

We're looking at 18 months to two years for mental health support. We're looking at four years for a diagnosis of autism. And on top of that, the children I see are dealing with bereavement, a family breakup, the impact of the cost of living crisis. All of this is happening to them before they even get to the school gate. It's hardly a surprise that they're struggling when they're in the classroom. And what are parents telling you about the issue? Parents are desperate. You heard that with Lydia. I haven't yet met a parent who isn't willing to do anything to try and support their child. But the reality is they are asking again and again and again for help and are being told, like Lydia, that their child

doesn't have a high enough need yet or the child hasn't reached crisis point. And what we would say is we know early intervention works we know with just a little bit of support right at the beginning at the earliest point of need we can prevent the crisis ever happening our chance uk youth workers are out there understanding and spending time with children to really see what is happening in their lives and giving them practical strategies for helping helping them manage those big emotions that are leaking out at school and that's what we need surely it's the right thing to do because we have six seven eight year olds the most common thing they're saying to me is they feel they've messed up their lives already you've done research into

the long-term prospects of excluded children. Yeah. What did you find? We've tracked over 3 million children from the first day at nursery school all the way through to the GCSEs. And I'm afraid we are seeing a really long-term impact of exclusions at primary school, which is those children excluded at primary school at a very young age, well, 90% of them will go on to fail their GCSE English and maths. And that's a, it's an entry level qualification for life. And it doesn't have to be that way. 90%. Yeah, yeah. So if you take a, take a child like Chris, who had an exclusion every single year, he's 10, every single year has been excluded from school. And when we've worked

with him on a one to one basis, giving him some practical skills, he's been excluded from school. And when we've worked with him on a one-to-one basis, giving him some practical skills, he's now able to go back into school and ask for the help he needs when he needs it. And he's flying. That's what we need to be doing for each and every child who's beginning to struggle. Okay, there might be some very concerned parents listening to this

who maybe their child's been excluded this very morning. Yeah. And they, like you've said, are in a very incredibly stressful situation and they've just heard this this very morning. Yeah. And they, like you've said, are in a very incredibly stressful situation. And they've just heard this 90% figure. Yeah. And the, you know, the long term. Yeah.

What could happen to them long term? What would you say to them? What can they do? You're not on your own. And there's some really simple techniques that can and do help. So we've got information available right now on our website at chanceuk.com. And then also, I would say, you are not on your own. It's really important when your child is threatened with exclusion,

it can be made to feel like it's the family's responsibility. And what I'm saying is that we as a community can group around you. So get in touch. If we can help, we will. And if we can't, we'll find someone who can because that's what we need to do. These children will always be part of our community. They're going to grow up and become our neighbours and our friends

and with a bit of help, then they can flourish. Lots of messages coming in on this. I'm going to read one out here. I'm a governor of a primary school in an area of deprivation. Recently and for the first time, we had to suspend a child with significant send needs because their behaviors were endangering staff bruising and biting and other students the decision was taken with regrets in our opinion the student is just too overwhelmed by the school environment the student's family are

supportive and understood this decision they go on to say this is an epidemic in schools and the additional significant needs that need to be managed without the budgets to do so is harming the majority of students, their safety, learning and attainment. I'm going to read another one. Sadly, my 14 year old son was permanently excluded from school in May. We appealed the school's decision. The permanent exclusion was quashed by the appeal. However, the head teacher has the power to override the appeal decision. Since the exclusion, my son's self-esteem and mental health have deteriorated. I don't feel this should be allowed. My son has a disability and was previously a looked after child. What do you want the government to do, Vanessa? I think what we need, I mean, it's absolutely heartening to hear the government talk for the

first time about inclusion in schools. That's a brilliant sign. But one of the things we absolutely must have is ring fence funding for that early intervention stage. It's all too easy to focus on the crisis end. And of course, we want support there. But if we want to stop children who are beginning to struggle ending up with exclusion, then we do need to fund that and ring fence that money because that governor is right. Teachers are brilliant. No teacher goes into education in order to exclude children, but they are doing the very best they can

in a very difficult situation. But we also do need schools to understand that the likelihood is if they exclude a child at primary school, that child is just not having its needs met. And there are some simple changes they can make. Vanessa Longley, thank you very much for speaking to me this morning. Vanessa is the chief executive of the charity Chance UK. And thank you. And thank you to my previous guest, Lydia.

I'm Sarah Treleaven. And for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this?

What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story. Settle in. Available now. Now, the Iraqi parliament is currently considering lowering the legal age of marriage to nine. There could also be changes to women's rights to divorce, child custody and

inheritance. UN experts have expressed grave concern and joining me to discuss this is Caroline Hawley, the BBC's diplomatic correspondent and Sarah Sambar, Iraqi researcher from Human Rights Watch. Morning, welcome to both of you. Caroline, I'm going to come to you first to get into this. What exactly is this proposed amendment? Yeah, this is something that people fear will constitute a major setback to the rights of women and girls. It's amendments to Iraq's personal law. It's called Law 188. It's been around for decades, since 1959. It was seen as a fairly progressive law.

One of the most progressive is progressive in the Middle East. But the proposed changes, and it's a bit complicated, Sarah will be able to explain a bit more, but they would give religious authorities the power to determine family matters, including marriage. People would be allowed to turn to religious rather than civil courts. So at the moment, you have to be 18 to marry under Iraqi law, 15 if a judge specifically agrees it in that case. But I understand that there's some Shiite clerics believe that puberty starts at the age of nine, so they could agree to marriage as low as that. So, of course, there's a lot of shock and concern in Iraq

and among women activists abroad. And as you said, it's not just, it wouldn't affect just the age of marriage, but also it would have far-reaching implications for divorce, custody of children, inheritance, all sorts of things. Who is advocating for this change and what's their reasoning? Well, it's conservative religious parties in the Iraqi parliament. They are very powerful, mostly Shia Muslim parties backed by their religious leaders. They're talking of defending families from

secular Western influences. In April, a law was passed in the Iraqi parliament that criminalized same-sex marriage. Now there's talk of protecting girls from immoral relationships. That's how they put it. And there have been attempts to do this before in 2014. in 2017, there was a backlash, it didn't happen. But this law has passed its first reading in August, it passed a second reading in September, and then also in September, the Iraqi Federal Supreme Court ruled that it was in line with the constitution. So I understand it's also passed a third reading, and now people are waiting to see if the vote comes and and and how it goes but there's a lot of concern yeah from the UN in particular who you've been and you've been speaking

to them that's right I have um you mentioned UN experts they wrote to the Iraqi government in September they said this would constitute a serious rollback of rights and uh would likely exacerbate uh forms of violence against Iraqi women and girls. According to UNICEF, already 28% of women in Iraq are married by the age of 18 because there's been some flouting of the national law. So there's concern already about that. But I spoke to a senior UN official. She's Yasmin Sharif.

She's executive director of the UN's Global Fund for Education, which aims to keep girls in school rather than marrying as young as primary school age if this law went into effect. And she said it was a travesty, a violation of human rights law and of the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child. This is a grave concern. This is a huge step backwards in the Iraqi society that once had universal education and where the regular law up to now has been 18 years, with exceptions at age 15, which is far too early still. And now to bring it down to nine years into the hands of religious authorities, it's dangerous. It's dangerous to Iraq, to the girls and their future, and especially as concerns education. This is going to lead to unwanted pregnancies.

You're going to have a generation of girls who are neither physically or mentally mature to be married and even have intercourse and bring up children and who do not enjoy an education. So they will not be able to educate their own children. They will be traumatized. I'm going to bring you in at this point, Sarah. How concerned are you about this? We are incredibly concerned. Unfortunately, it's looking increasingly likely that there is a high probability this law actually passes. And, you know, as Caroline said, the results would be absolutely devastating for Iraqi girls and women. Can you explain a bit of the setup of the country? I know because this is to do with religious law, isn't it? So explain where this has come from.

So currently, Iraq's personal status law was drafted in 1959. It governs personal status for all Muslims in Iraq. And it was the result of negotiations between the different sects to come up with a sort of shared interpretation of personal status matters. For decades now, Shia groups in particular have been pushing to amend this to give the power to religious courts to be able to determine their own family matters. What this would essentially create is a legal system where a person's sect and not the fact that they're an Iraqi citizen dictates what rights they have. So one woman whose family decided to follow the personal status law would be protected from child marriage

until 18. And her best friend sitting next to her in class could be forced into marriage at an early age because her family has decided to take a different approach. What are women on the ground saying about the potential impact of these changes? What are they thinking about it? They're outraged. I mean, Caroline said that, you know, within Iraq, they've been saying this is an attempt to defend the Iraqis against Western values. But first and foremost, it's been Iraqis themselves, Iraqi women and men who are saying, no, we do not want this. You know, a group of Iraqi female parliamentarians have formed a bloc to fight passage of the bill. There have been protests in the streets. A survey in August by the Iraqi polling team found that 73% of respondents were against this law. So Iraqi people are

overwhelmingly saying, we don't want this. And you know, if it passes anyways, it's a sad testament to Iraq's state of democracy. How common is child marriage in Iraq? It's been increasingly on the rise over the past 20 years. It's a quite prevalent issue. And rather than trying to tackle the root causes of it and try to end this phenomenon, the parliament is discussing ways to make it easier and to, in fact, legalise a problem that's already harming thousands of girls each year.

So it would exacerbate it? 100%. Caroline, how does lowering the legal age of marriage to nine compare to global norms? Well, certainly that UN official I spoke to said that she thought that would be the lowest in the world. I think in Iran it's 13. So it would be very, very low.

In Afghanistan, I think there is the practice sometimes of people, families marrying off their girls very, very young because of poverty. So the issue is poverty. And where child marriage is already most prevalent is in poor, ultra-conservative Shia communities. The other thing to say is that there are fears that it will exacerbate sectarian tensions in Iraq between the Shia and Sunnis. Yes, Sarah, the different communities,

let's get into that. How divided are they and how complicated is the fight for women's equality? Yeah, I mean, Iraq has a very long history and a very bloody history related to sectarian tensions in the country. I mean, wars have been fought over it. And when we're discussing a law that would create different rights and privileges for different sets of people based on sect, at a time when Iraq is experiencing its most stable time since pre-2003, since pre-US invasion. It's incredibly concerning and just feels like it might be inflaming tensions at a time when

the country should be focusing on unity. How likely do you think this amendment is to pass? What happens next? So on November 9th, the Iraqi parliament announced it would extend the parliamentary session by 30 days in order to come to an agreement. It's looking very likely that this bill is going to pass just sort of based on the way power sharing within the Iraqi parliament works. Typically, these laws are passed in a group of three, the Shia bloc will propose a law that they want, the Sunni bloc will propose a law they want, and the Kurdish bloc will do the same. They get debated in unison and passed sort of as a package deal.

And that's exactly what we're seeing now, and we're seeing parliamentarians come to greater agreement on those other two laws. So unfortunately, I'm not super optimistic, but hope is not yet lost. Women's rights activists are saying it would legalize child rape and they're going to carry on fighting it, just hoping against hope that it won't pass, right?

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, we were discussing this in the office this morning about, this is about lowering the legal age of marriage. Would that automatically lower the legal age of consent as well then? So there are actually, under Iraqi law right now, marital rape is not a crime. Women have the right to request an annulment of a marriage that they were forced into if the marriage was not consummated and since marital rape is not a crime that leaves girls in these

situations who may have had a marriage forcibly consummated with no legal recourse except for divorce, which their protections are about to be taken away. Thank you both for coming in to talk to me about this. I'm sure we'll be discussing it again on the programme. Caroline Hawley, the BBC's diplomatic correspondent, and Sarah Sambar, who's an Iraqi researcher from Human Rights Watch. We have a statement from the Education Minister, Stephen Morgan, about the item we were discussing just before this,

about the number of children who are being excluded from school. The government is already investing a billion pounds in SEND and providing access to specialist mental health professions in every school. And he said, we know there is more to do and are looking closely at how we can go further to support teachers and drive up standards for all our children. 84844. Now to my next guest. We often talk about the forgotten work of incredible women on Women's Hour, but few can claim to be responsible for the births of at least 12 million people. A new Netflix film tells the story of a woman who can make exactly that claim. Embryologist Jean Purdy was part of a team of three people who invented IVF.

The film is called Joy, and alongside Bill Nighy and James Norton, it stars my next guest, the brilliant, multi-award winning actress, Thomasin McKenzie. Thomasin, welcome to Woman's Hour. Hello, thank you for having me. It's our absolute pleasure so tell us about jean purdy i will she what did she do i have to say quickly i heard the previous conversation and that's absolutely appalling and it's yeah it's terrifying

i work with an organization in based in kenya and tanzania called so they can and they they work to um you know prevent child marriage and and stop female genital cutting. It's horrific how these women are just constantly under threat in all aspects. Absolutely, all over the world as well. And so we highlight it and talk about it all the time on Women's Hour. And actually, Jean, interestingly, because of this film, it takes you back to the 60s and how much has changed culturally in the landscape we'll get to all of that um just give

give us an overview of who she was yes so gene purdy was the world's first embryologist um and she worked with bob edwards and petrick stipe to invent IVF, in vitro fertilization. Had you heard of her before? I had not. I'd heard of IVF before. But Jean Purdy and the women who were part of the initial tests, the Ovum Club, they are unsung heroes. Yes. And this film really does focus on Jean's perspective. It's all about Jean. Why was it important to have her story told?

Well, partly because it's common for women to do amazing work and for that to get intentionally overlooked. So partly we wanted to share with the world um Jean's story and how much of an impact she made um and also because she just she she it's true she played a huge role in the success of IVF which has led to more than 12 million births um so it's just an important story to tell that affects a lot of people yeah and at huge personal cost what struck me is it's not only the story of this amazing woman jean but also it really celebrates all the women yeah in the in the film and the women who were

the first initial women to uh to try and test this new technology but it's the relationship with her mother that really struck me because it was a huge personal cost that she decided to go and help with this new technology because her mother they were both christian said you know it's me or this job yeah um jean did sacrifice a lot there's she was a very personal person. She actually died very young at 39 of cancer and she left no living relatives and she wasn't able to have children herself, which speaks to how personal this IVF was to her. But yes, because she was so personal,

it was actually hard to find information about her. And Jack Thorne, the writer, and his co-creator, Rachel Mason, they did endless research, and I did a lot of research into Jean and into what it is to be an embryologist. But yes, there was a bit of creative license taken. So Gladys May, played by Joanna Scanlon, who did an absolutely fantastic job, she represented the response of the church. Yes, a religious response,

which was anger at what they were doing because they thought that they were doing God's work. It's all tied up in the conversation around abortion and things that you've been talking about earlier on. And a woman's right to choose. Exactly. That's what it comes down to. You mentioned there that you did your own research. I've read that you're an over-preparer.

How did you prepare for this film? A lot went into it. I really love the research aspect of what I do because I get to learn things and go places and meet people that I would never otherwise have the opportunity to. So for Joy, I visited the endocrinology department at Guy's Hospital and talked to leading IVF doctors and nurses. And I was able to watch real life embryologists at work. You know, they had embryos projected onto big screens and they were dissecting DNA from them, which is microscopic

work. And I was able to watch the development of embryos, you know, the cells multiplying and incubators, and then look at the person standing next to me and think that cluster of cells is going to become you, which is pretty moving. What a privileged part of your job to be able to do that, to step into other worlds. It was so generous part of your job to be able to do that, to step into other worlds. It was so generous of Guy's Hospital to allow us to do that. I really feel very grateful for all the people that help me do what I do. I've been so beautifully supported throughout my career

by people wanting to share their wisdom with me so that I can try and represent people as accurately as possible. But you even go to the minute detail of trying to write like Jean? Yes, yeah. Practicing her handwriting? Yeah, I have a journal at home of just like when you're at primary school and you learn how to write out the alphabet. I've got the A, B, C, rows and rows and rows of it all in Jean's handwriting.

It's attention to detail, Thomasin. Yeah. I mean, it's fun. I love it. Because you had a very special acting coach on this role, didn't you? Your mum. Yes. Yeah, my mum is a fantastic acting coach.

And I was actually quite nervous to play Jean because I felt a big responsibility. And I wanted to do as good of a job as I possibly could. So for the first time, formally, I asked my mum to give me a hand. And she helped me with confidence to play the role. How was that process? It was great. I think my mum loved it because, you know, with teenagers, you're always like, no, I don't want you to tell me what to do or how to do it. Like it's, you know, you want that rebellion, the resistance to your parents' help. So finally, I mean, I'm not a teenager anymore. I'm 24. But finally, I was actually asking her, hey, mum,

can you help me out with this because I I need to get up and say I have been waiting for this moment my whole life because you started acting very young yeah yeah I started when I was around about six lots of actors in the family yeah third generation actress both of my my grandma and my mum have been made dames for their contribution to the arts in New Zealand. Incredible. Yeah. But you didn't actually want to be an actor.

No, I didn't. I really wanted to do anything that involved animals, really. I wanted to be a vet or a zookeeper or I would have loved to have worked at a monkey sanctuary somewhere. Of course, who wouldn't? Part of me still does. What changed? When I was 13, I did a role. I was in a film, it was a true story about a New Zealander called Louise Nicholas, who was raped by a policeman when she was 13 and that abuse continued up into her young adult life. And when she finally gained the confidence to share what had happened to her because she knew she would be judged for something

that was not her fault, she wasn't believed by the courts. These men who abused her were not persecuted. So playing that role, being a part of getting that story out there and sharing Louise's truth made me realise the chance I had to make change. Goodness me, and at such a young age, you recognise that? Yeah. I mean, it was an intense role, honestly. Were you supported through playing that role?

I was, yeah. Again, because my parents would accompany me to set and make sure that I was okay. So I was very well supported. And you've gone on to do great things. No danger of being typecast because a range of roles that you've had in the last few years, we've seen you as the young Jewish girl Elsa in Jojo Rabbit, which we loved. Haunted teenager Ellie in Last Night in Soho.

The strange and introverted woman Eileen in Eileen. So where are you going next? Right now I'm playing a young romantic in a film called Feckham Hall. If it sounds a bit rude me saying that it's meant to. And yeah, just it's kind of like a rom-com Downton Abbey spoof. Enjoying it. I'm loving it. And you've moved to London. I have. Best city in the world. Look, it's a great city.

I love London. I absolutely love it. I'm partial to New Zealand. Fair enough. We'll let you have Wellington. I've never been there, so I couldn't comment. Or you'll have to come down. Oh, one day. And you'll have to come back and tell us about the next film as well thomas thank you

so much thank you joy it's our pleasure joy is in selected cinemas now and will be available on netflix from tomorrow that's friday the 22nd of november and i'll be back tomorrow for more woman's hour that's all for today's woman's hour join Join us again next time. BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. In 1984, an IRA bomb planted under a bath in Brighton's Grand Hotel came close to killing Margaret Thatcher and her cabinet. It was the biggest direct assault on a British government since the gunpowder plot. From BBC Radio 4, I'm Glenn Patterson.

And in The Brighton Bomb, I tell the story of the deadly attack, unravelling the threads that brought all involved, often by heartbreaking chance, to that place and time, 2.54am on the morning of 12 October. And I reveal how the police only just averted a follow-up bombing campaign aimed at England's beaches. To hear the Brighton bomb and many other great history documentaries, search for the History Podcast on BBC Sounds. I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies.

I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long

story. Settle in. Available now.