Woman's Hour - Kate Bush, Lynn Fitch, Cost of living, Electroconvulsive therapy

Episode Date: June 22, 2022

In a world exclusive, today Kate Bush gives Emma Barnett her reaction to being discovered by a new generation and making it to number 1 in the UK singles charts 44 years after her first chart-topper Wuthering Heights. Running Up That Hill was first released in 1985 and its use in the Netflix hit series Stranger Things has made Kate Bush a social media and streaming sensation. We also speak to Caitlin Moran about how rare it is to hear from Kate and why she is inspired by her songs. A report out today has found that the number of abortions has increased over the course of the pandemic. The cost of living has been cited as a key factor for this rise at an uncertain time in the economy and with job insecurity. Mary-Ann Stephenson is co-director of the Women's Budget Group, an independent body which analyses the impact of government policy on women. A decision is also expected any day from the US Supreme Court on whether to overturn Roe v Wade – the historic 1973 ruling which has guaranteed women access to abortion nationwide. At the centre of this legal challenge, is a woman who is being hailed by some as the lawyer who could end Roe v Wade. She is the Mississippi Attorney General Lynn Fitch…and the BBC’s Holly Honderich joins Emma to explain more.Twice as many women than men are receiving electroconvulsive therapy (ECT) according to researchers at the University of East London. ECT is used to treat a range of mental health issues including severe depression, long-lasting mania, and catatonia. But an FOI request to twenty NHS Trusts has also revealed that older women are also more likely to be receiving treatment. They are concerned it causes memory loss and that patients are not given sufficient information to make informed decisions before they give consent to treatment. Emma is joined by one of the lead researchers, clinical psychologist Dr Chris Harrop and by Dr Trudi Seneviratne, Registrar of the Royal College of Psychiatry. Emma speaks to the writer, DJ and broadcaster, Annie Mac on what has been a big week for music. They discuss Beyonce’s new single, Break My Soul, which marks a change of musical genre for her as it’s a House track. They talk about the history of house music and it’s cultural shifts and about Kate Bush and Glastonbury 2022.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Emma Barnett and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Good morning and welcome to the programme. Today, a world-exclusive interview for you and a rare one at that. Yesterday, I had the honour of talking to the woman behind this. Keep this, it's me, I'm happy to come home. behind this. And this. I am, of course, talking about the one and only Kate Bush,

who seldom gives interviews. But in a world exclusive, she has decided to share with me and you, the listeners of Woman's Hour, how very pleased she is to be number one in the UK singles chart 44 years after her debut Wuthering Heights and with a song she first released 37 years ago in 1985, Running Up That Hill. We're running up that road We're running up that hill

There's no one wrong or left Kate Bush has suddenly found she has a whole new generation of fans, a lot of them in their teens and twenties. Good morning to them. If they're joining us for the first time today on Woman's Hour, welcome. I hope you'll stay and I hope you'll be back. And this new legion of devotees formed because of the use of that song, of running up that hill, in a Netflix show set in the 80s called Stranger Things. And in case you haven't watched it, there are four seasons

and one of the main characters is a girl called Max. And in her hour of need, involving a terrifying demon, her friends slot a cassette into her Walkman, remember it's the 80s, and play her favourite track by Kate Bush, and it literally saves her. Now parents around the world who have perhaps lovingly created vinyl and CD collections of Kate Bush's work are being asked by their teens, have you heard of Kate Bush? Well, before we hear from the woman herself, let's talk to one of those original fans, the Times writer, author and former music journalist, Katlin Moran.

And I started asking Katlin by how rare it is to hear from Kate Bush herself. As a species, you always feel kind of flattered when she reappears. You're like, oh, she still likes us. That's nice. We must be good people and she's still keeping in communication with us. Well done us. That's nice. We must be good people. And she's still keeping in communication with us. Well done us. It is that element. And with this, though, and this number one, you know, 37 years after she released that track, you know, she's broken three records, including the oldest woman to have that position taking over from Cher. But why do you think she means and meant so much to so many people? I hugely enjoyed Cher's message to her when she took over. So Cher previously been the oldest. She was 52 when Believe came out.

And Kate's now 63 and she's now the new number one. And Cher went on to Twitter, as she does, and went, Bravo, Kate, records are meant to be broken. Remember back in the day when women had short sell-by dates? We had to fight our way through the testosterone curtain and we did it so the girls who came after us could sing as long as they want and there's so many great things in that I love the idea of a testosterone curtain because the world's when Kate came along like my daughter's a musician now she's 19 and I keep trying to explain to her how few women there were around when Kate Bush came along. The really, you know, I was a music journalist in the 90s.

And like once a year we do a special on women. And that was in the 90s. We'd like sit around and work out if we could put a woman on the cover. Women just did not like music. It was extraordinary. Things have changed so much now. It's absolutely flipped now. Music is dominated by women.

It would be very difficult for you to sign a male artist or a band. It's all about women now. And so much of that is to do with Kate Bush because she came along and previously many female artists had understandably felt that they had to compete with the same kind of rage and in the same kind of way that male artists did but Kate is the most female artist she just floated on and did it all like a girl or a woman would when you see Wuthering Heights for the first time she was 19 and she's dancing around in her 90 singing about Emily Bronte's Wuthering Heights so suddenly you don't have to be this big rock pig man in a pair of leather trousers just shouting about hell and destruction you can be a bookish nerdy girl

still in your 90 and just float on television and float to number one in the charts and it's just the uncompromising femininity of her but I love her most. It's such a good point and also at the same time which is something I talked about with her she was at the cutting edge of technology of what you could do which is brilliant and this vision of hers was so clear even from the beginning which again was rare especially as a female artist well i know you're gonna hate me banging on about feminism when woman's out but obviously i see this all from this point of view because her love of technology she's so nerdy so she got really early into synthesizers and

particularly fair lights which weren't just a synthesizer it's a cold kind of a thing that allows you to produce stuff and sample sounds and uh and so many female artists around that time got obsessed with this really new technology because it basically allowed you to have your own band your own orchestra and your own production that you could do yourself so suddenly you weren't as previously you had to going into a studio full of men all smoking cigarettes going you sure about that love sounds a bit weird you could sit at home with your fair light and do what the hell you wanted um and you just you know artists need privacy and they need not to feel judged and for women particularly that's a very rare thing and she really fought for that yes well she brings up the fair light in our discussion so

it's it's in there don't you worry and and of that, a lot of women in particular and men look up to her, don't they? That clarity of vision, that control of the work and what she wants to do. I find it really interesting that she's often described as being quite mystical and magic and almost unreal. And obviously that element is there in the things that she does and in the way that she presents herself. I think so much of why we look up to her as this almost kind of unreal creature that came sort of tiptoed out of narnia is you're looking at a woman who has been completely in control of her life and her career from day one the reason she seems so mysterious and magical is because she hasn't been upskirted you know she doesn't have to be on tiktok we don't really know anything

about her private life she's been entirely in control of her career since the beginning. She formed her own management company. And it's also the other thing that I love about it is when I talk to my girls about women in music, there's no bad or sad bit about Kate Bush's story. It's amazing that music is there for so many female survivors. But when you're reading a biography of a woman in music, be it Chrissie Hynde or the Go-Go's or Viv Albertine from the Slits, a lot of it is very traumatic and very sad. And it's incredible. And that's why they go into music. Kate does no bad bit. She's a lovely middle class girl who like is a friend of a friend of David Gilmour from Pink Floyd, who hands her amazing demos onto EMI. And then she's incredibly successful. She's brilliant at what she does. She's a nerd. She's incredibly hardworking. She was the pioneer of the overhead mic so that she

could dance on stage. I love that. I absolutely love that. When you think about, because, you know, even mics to this day, again, get a bit feminist on women's eyes, it's been known to happen. But, you know, in a television studio, as I am in sometimes, and you want to wear a dress, it is the most horrendous process of trying to get it onto your bra strap and all these different things because it's been designed essentially for the suit. And her putting a microphone on her head, the first iteration of the Britney mic, as it became known, is brilliant. Yeah, exactly. Madonna, Britney, because girls want to dance, right? Like kind of like you go to a nightclub, who's on the dance floor first? It's the girls, like kind of like girls want to dance.

Of course she wanted to dance. And talking about girls and, you know, you've spent a lot of your career, especially of late, writing about girls and how young girls are and how they build themselves. There is now a whole new generation of people, you know, girls and boys connecting with her through stranger things. What do you think it is that that gives them that affinity I mean it just sounds perfect and magical it is another world nothing else sounds like that no one else has a voice like that no one else wants to do with their voice what she wants to do but I think a lot of it is in in a way it's amazing that she's as

successful as she was at the beginning of her career, because it is so feminine. It is so uniquely itself that it's only now as women in the music industry starts to dominate that we're really ready to understand quite how uniquely female and uncompromising she's been in her, in her work. Like there's, there's one song, there's this song called Mrs. Bertolosi on Ariel that when it came out, all the male critics were so sneery about it because it describes her coming home or a character coming home with the family after a long day's walk and there being mud all over the floor and she's washing the mud off the floor and then she puts a wash on and then the chorus is her just

singing the words washing machine washing machine over and over again in very high-pitched voice and then going wishy-washy clean the shirts all the men who reviewed that were just sneering just going she's crazy you would sing a song about washing machines it's so boring why is she doing this as a woman who spends most of her life putting on either a mixed or a white wash of course you would want to write a song about that and of course the song then she then drifts off into this beautiful dream world about as she looks in the washing machine it's churning around she remembers standing in the sea and watching it you know watching the sea churning around and she goes off into a little lady dame

dream while she's putting a white swash on and it's no more stupid for someone to write a song about putting a wash on than it is for the rolling stones to sing waiting for my man like he's just standing on the street corner waiting to get his drugs deal that that's a that's no more weirder thing to write a song about than putting on a wash. I just love Kate Bush for just singing women's lives in a woman's voice and dancing in a woman's way. I know. And I have to say, ever since I heard that song, which I also love, and I love the stories that she tells because, you know,

it's not confessional. These are stories. It will be inspired, of course, by things she's seen and felt. And in this case, a washing machine. But standing in front of a washing machine has never been the same again for me ever since I heard that because of the journey she took me on in my mind totally in all that album Ariel I mean as I get older I think that might be my favorite album of all time ever because she does this thing that is so hard thing to do she tries to describe a day as you get older the idea that like kind of you're never going to have this day again that

they slip through your hands. And so all of them, side two of Ariel, Sea of Honey, is just her describing, you know, the colour of the sky, the colour of the sea. And Nocturne ends with her just sort of shouting over and over again, the sky is changing colour. It's changing now. It's changing now with this desperation, but also incredible beauty because she's trying to describe a moment, a second life. And there is no one more alive than Kate Bush. These artists come along. You seem to have bigger eyes and hearts and mouths than everyone else. And they're just basically standing at you and standing there, staring at you and going, we're alive.

Like, this is it. We're alive. I wanted to pick up on that point, Caitlin, because I reread. I remembered when you wrote it and I looked it back up before talking to Kate Bush because you were lucky enough to go in 2014 to the Hammersmith Apollo to see her for those run of shows that, you know, people were traveling all around the world to try and go and see her live. I wasn't able to, but you took me there through your experience and I remembered the piece. I looked it up. And the way that you end that piece is you talk about emerging after three hours newborn and having been reminded by kate bush of what it is to be alive and that's really not an overstatement sometimes as a music

journalist you do lead a little bit into the invective and just be like it was just mind blowing it wasn't some men playing some songs this was genuinely a rebirth there's a moment in that concert where she's sitting and playing at a piano and suddenly a tree bursts through the floor through the piano and then 10 minutes later she's turned into a one-winged bird and she's flying through the air and then confetti and then confetti with poems written on them shower from the ceiling so we're literally standing in a rain of poetry and the fact that she did there's no reason for her to do these gigs like she just came out of nowhere suddenly announced it and put on this astonishing, absolutely reinvention of what music and live gigs are.

These gigs presuppose that nothing that had ever happened in rock culture that was made by men had ever happened. It was as if punk had never happened, and he said ballet was the predominant cultural form for 40 years. It was a complete reinvention of what you would do on stage. And we were all, that night, the third song she played was Hands of Love and I was so not ready for it. I literally collapsed on the floor in front of my friend,

just going, I wasn't ready for this. I wasn't ready for it to be Hands of Love. Because Hands of Love is one of the greatest songs of all time ever. And also the chorus is Kate Bush pretending to be a dog. She's just going, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh oh oh oh like she's being a cartoon dog like she's so silly and all the best people are silly all the best people are funny she sees the humor in music she's you know she's obsessed with comedians kind of like the only people you see her sort of hobnobbing with in public uh aren't other rock stars it's comedians so she goes and has a lot of memories from the day to day she's like she did a song about ken livingstone for the comic strip like i did not know that and

this is why caitlin i asked you to come on today as the perfect warm-up act for everyone to hear from kate bush herself so thank you oh god my absolute pleasure i would warm up for kate bush any day and i hope she's listening and wants to be my friend. So that's mainly why I'm a solid pit to become her mate. That's your reason for coming on this morning. We are very grateful. And I know as your background with the music journalist that you would tell us things we didn't know. And I learned quite a few bits in there, even though I've spent the last few days immersing myself in Kate Bush. Katlin Moran, thank you so much. My absolute pleasure. Thank you, darling. So shall we get on with it?

Let's hear from the one and only Kate Bush. When we spoke yesterday on the good old-fashioned landline, more about Kate Bush's phone later, I started by asking her how she was feeling about being number one with her hit, Running Up That Hill, 37 years on, after its use, very recent use, in Stranger Things. Well, it's just extraordinary. I mean, you know, it's such a great series.

I thought that the track would get some attention. But I just never imagined that it would be anything like this. It's so exciting. But it's quite shocking, really, isn't it? I mean, the whole world's gone mad. Well, I i mean you know 37 years is the longest time i believe it's a song has taken to get to number one and it's also in america it's your first ever top 10 hit in the us which i didn't know yeah yeah i mean it's

what's really wonderful i think is that this is a whole new audience who you know in a lot of cases they've never heard of me and i love that the thought of all these really young people hearing the song for the first time and discovering it is well i think it's very special it's a discovery by a new generation there's lots of people of course who who have held you dear to their hearts for a long time who are probably feeling quite protective at the moment especially when some of their children are saying, have you heard of Kate Bush? They're saying, yes, very much so. But in terms of this song and for those new audience members, for those people discovering you now,

what's it actually about, Running Up That Hill, if you were to explain it to a new audience? Well, you know, I really like people to hear a song and take from it what they want. But originally it was written as the idea of really swapping, a man and a woman swapping places with each other just to feel what it was like from the other side. Yes, and getting that experience. Yeah.

If that was possible. And it wasn't originally called Running Up That Hill, was it? No, it was called A Deal With God. I think they were just worried, the record company were worried, that it wouldn't get played on the radio, that people would feel it was a sensitive title. Right. So is that still how you think of it, as opposed to Running Up That Hill?

Because when you've originally named something, and these are all your creations, you can stay wedded to it, can't you? Well, yes and no, but some of them have had very strange titles that you kind of have a working title that you quickly forget. But yeah, I think for me, this is still called A Deal With God. Now lots more people, new people as well, getting into the song. I mean, it's so widely listened to across social media platforms as well,

never mind streaming platforms. Have you listened to it again with new ears? Do you listen back to it? I never listen to my old stuff. But then, you know, when things like this come along, I'm normally involved in something like, you know, maybe doing an edit or revisiting the track for some kind of other reason

working on it. So yeah I hadn't heard it for a really long time. Yeah well I was imagining people also watching the video for the first time. It's such a beautiful video. You've of course trained as a dancer with movement and all of that. It's just wonderful for people to

see again. Of course, in this context with Stranger Things, which I know you obviously signed off on how the song was going to be used, was it important for you that it's a song that helps a female character, that it helps Max? I think they've put it in a really special place. I mean, the Dutton Brothers created the series and actually we

watched it right from the word go with the first series onwards. So I was already familiar with the series. You're already a fan at this point. Yes, yes, very much so. Yeah. And I thought what a lovely way for the song to be used in such a positive way, you know, as a kind of talisman almost really for, for Max. And, yeah, I think it's very touching, actually. Yes, and of course people, especially when they're younger, music does save people, doesn't it? It's so important to people,

and that's at the heart of how the song is used. Yeah, yeah, I mean, they have really put it in a very special place, and I think music is very special. It's different from all other art forms isn't it in a way I mean all art forms sit in their own space but music has a way of touching people yes and and you'll always remember actually where you were when you heard something or or what it means to you I mean I was also thinking when I was wondering about why you signed off on it,

why you were drawn to Stranger Things, but interesting to hear you're a fan. Is there a nostalgia there as well for the 80s? A lot of people loving the show love the fact that it's set in that era. Yeah, I think it was a great time. I mean, there was some great music in the 80s, but I think it's an incredibly exciting time we're in now. I mean, okay, so it's an awful time on a lot of levels for people, very difficult. But it's also a time when incredible things are happening. Technology is progressing at this

incredible rate that's pretty overwhelming, really. But, you know, there's so many advances in medicine. There are positive things you just have to look a bit harder to find them at the moment I think. Well I mean if we're just looking at the technology and you I mean running up that hill as a hashtag is is all over social media platforms on TikTok running up that hill's had more than 616 million views and and you were always very cutting edge with technology it was almost like you were waiting some of the time for the technology to catch up. Well, that's very nice of you to say, sir.

I mean, I suppose, you know, I was using things like the Fairlight very early, which was a sampling machine, which of course now it's very, it's common now for that samples to be used in music all the time. Yes, but then it was not as a synthesizer in a way to make music well it's it's fascinating to think about but i was also wondering if you missed the 80s because there were a lack of phones then and when you did your concerts in 2014 you

did ask for people or rather had a voiceover to ask for people to turn off their mobiles and it seemed from those who went people people actually did turn them off because they wanted to to have that connection. Well, you know, that was really great that people respected that because the thing was, you know, we were working in what was quite a small theatre and I wanted there to be a really strong connection between the audience and everyone on stage. And phones are very distracting. It's a bit different in an open-air concert.

You know, it's not quite the same, but we were trying to create an atmosphere with what we were doing. There was a lot of theatre and film involved, and I think it did give a stronger connection to the whole process, really. Are you on social media? Do you look at it yourself? Are you into your phone? I have a really ancient phone. How ancient are we talking?

Oh, it's very ancient. But I like that, you see, because I spend a lot of time on my laptop. And when I go out during the day, it means I don't have to deal with emails and everyone knows that. So I just get texts and calls on my phone and it means that I have um I have a bit of peace yeah that's very I might start taking that advice and buy myself an old brick just so that I could be out of out of range I did also want to check do you know about witch talk a subset of tiktok it's inspired by a bab Babushka and your look in that video. There's a whole load of people very dedicated to you in that space. Do you know about that? No, I don't. It sounds ridiculous.

OK, that's some homework if I'm allowed to give Kate Bush a bit of homework. But I also just wanted to bring up your son, if I may, because in that concert that we were just talking about, you did pay tribute to Bertie, he was also a constant presence during the show, singing in the backing choir on stage, taking part in several of the scenes you said without him that that wouldn't have happened, he's now obviously some years on in his twenties, what does he make of a new generation discovering his mum?

I think he thinks it's pretty cool Yeah, I bet I bet, is he a fan of Stranger Things as well? Yeah, we all are. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, our friends kept saying, have you seen Stranger Things when the first series came out? So eventually, you know, we thought, OK, let's just watch it.

And we binged watched it and then saw every series ever since. It's lovely because, you know, in a similar way to Harry Potter where in those early films they were just little kids and then as the films progressed it becomes heavier and darker and those little kids turn into really talented young adult actors and

you have a different connection with something that's moved through years really of watching them grow. And have you watched it? Yes, it's actually prescribed watching in my house. My husband's completely addicted to it. And he already loved you, but was very excited to see that cassette go in and also have the

memory of the Walkman that we both remember very well. And, you know, I was also thinking, what did Kate Bush do during lockdown? And perhaps you were binge watching, like the rest of us, our favourite TV shows. Was that the order of the day in the Bush household? Who wasn't? That and gardening. And a bit of kitchen disco?

Are you still into the moves? Gardening's my thing now, I think. Well, Kate Bush, it is absolutely lovely to talk to you. Let me just read you one final thing I did mention some of your original fans

you know thinking about this new generation finding you and one person wrote Kate Bush did not go through Wuthering Heights

run all the way up that hill to make a deal with God shout babushka for you all to be finding out about her

in 2022 what do you make of that I just want to say well well, thank you very much. Thank you to everyone, because it's just, you know, it's just extraordinary what's happening, and it's very exciting. And thank you, Emma. Thank you for giving me the time to say thank you to everyone and, you know.

Well, Kate Bush. Hooray. To hear your voice is a real treat. Thank you so much for talking to me and talking to our listeners. I'll let you go back to the garden. And the brick, the phone that no one can get a hold of you on. Thanks, Emma. Kate Bush, yes, any time, all the time.

She can come back, please. I did say that right at the very end of that phone call as she called in on her landline to the Woman's Hour studio. Definitely some moments of my life I won't forget and hopefully you will feel the same. Laura has messaged in to say good morning regarding the wonderful Kate Bush. I have loved her since she first blessed us with her truly amazing original music. I missed her dreadfully when she became, as Laura puts it, rather reclusive. I'm obviously excited and delighted that she's come back to us. Please could you ask her now to stay much love to Kate and that is

from Laura, Crispin says shivers up my spine listening to Kate and her interview on Women's Hour, not many artists command an involuntary physical response another message here saying I'm 51 and I think this is the very first time in my life I've heard Kate Bush speak in an interview, we've all heard her songs but I'm not sure

I've heard her give an interview before she has given interviews, they are rare it's safe to say but thank you so much for for being with us this morning and it is very special to of course her hear her voice outside of song and what she's thinking about today with this remarkable number one that she finds herself at the top of the charts 37 years on from that song coming out running up that hill kat says this is a you know massive coup for the program but an even bigger joy for us i am a kate starts 37 years on from that song coming out, running up that hill. Kat says, this is a massive coup for the programme, but an even bigger joy for us. I am a Kate Bush newbie from the 2012 Olympics.

So a lot of people getting in touch, please feel free to do so. 84844 is the number you need to text us here at Woman's Hour. And later on in the programme, keeping with music, I'll be talking to the DJ and author Annie Mack. But keep those messages coming in. Coming to the news, though, and what you've been hearing in the bulletins, going about the detail, going into the detail of the rate of inflation in the UK, which has hit a 40 year high. And this among a cost of living crisis, which we know is hitting women particularly hard,

as we've covered on the programme and will continue to keep covering, a report out today has found that the number of abortions has increased over the course of the pandemic. The cost of living has been cited as a key factor for this rise at an uncertain time in the economy and also with people thinking about their job security. The data published by the Office for Health Improvement and Disparities also shows that women living in the most deprived areas of England are more than twice as likely to have abortions than those in the wealthiest. Well, Marianne Stevenson is co-director of the Women's

Budget Group, an independent body which analyses the impact of government policy on women and joins me now. This is an example, it seems, Marianne, you tell me more, of women changing their behaviour with the cost of living crisis. Good morning, Emma. Yes, I mean, we know the cost of living crisis has hit women harder than men. And I mean, as you said, you've covered before, and that's partly because it's not just a cost of living crisis, it's an incomes crisis as well. Women earn less than men, were hit harder during the pandemic, particularly in terms of their savings. So women have come out of the pandemic with lower levels of savings and higher levels of debt on average, which means that they don't have the cushion to cope with rising prices. But also women's caring responsibilities mean that they're less likely to have the

flexibility to be able to increase their hours at work. And childcare costs have been spiralling long before this particular increase in inflation. And finally, women are the shock absorbers of poverty. So within households, women are more likely to be the ones who are making decisions to cut back on their own needs in order to meet the needs of their families. It's mothers going without meals, skipping meals in order to make sure that their kids are fed. And in those circumstances, people are having to make really, really hard decisions that they shouldn't be forced into position of having to make. I mean, it's important to say, of course, talking about abortion, we don't know the context of that. But this has been pointed to as a reason for the rising number of abortions during that time.

And, you know, a lot of people, a lot of women in particular, talk about choice and the freedom of choice and the need for that particular right. And of course, others have different views when it comes to abortion. But do you see it as part of what you've just described, those choices being made? Well, I think, you know, reproductive choices have to include the choice to have children when you want to have children, as well as the choices not to have children when you don't want to have children. So it's really important that we provide support for families and for mothers in particular to be able to make the choices that are right for them. We know, for example, there's been evidence that the introduction of the two child limit for social security benefits,

which means that you can only get benefits for two children, for any children born after 2007. There is evidence that for some women that influenced their decision to have an abortion because they were pregnant with a third or fourth child and they couldn't afford that. And so it's, you know, it's really important that we provide the support that mothers in particular need so that they can make the choices that are right for them. Marianne Stevenson, thank you. Co-director of the Women's Budget Group. Well, keeping with abortion, but on the other side of the pond and on the legal side of this and the fight for rights

or a decision potentially, let's see, if there is going to be a fight over this, is expected any day now from the US Supreme Court on whether to overturn Roe v. Wade. Of course, many have been fighting for that to be overturned as well. That's the historic 1973 ruling, of course, which has guaranteed women access to abortion across America. At the centre of this legal challenge is a woman we thought you should hear about.

She's being hailed by some as the lawyer who could end Roe v. Wade. She's the Mississippi Attorney General, Lynn Fitch, and the BBC's Holly Hondrick joins me now from Washington, D.C., to explain more. Holly, welcome back to the programme. Tell us a bit more about Lynn Fitch and the BBC's Holly Hondrick joins me now from Washington, D.C. to explain more. Holly, welcome back to the programme. Tell us a bit more about Lynn Fitch. So she's, as you said, that she's the Attorney General, the Chief Legal Officer of Mississippi. She was elected in 2020 and about five months into the job, she brought this case forward, this law which bans all abortions in the state after 15 weeks, regardless of rape or incest. It was struck down twice by lower courts and five months into the

job, she took it up again and brought it to the Supreme Court. It's a majority conservative court now. They took up the challenge, heard the case in December. And as you said, we're waiting any day now to hear what the court has to say. And this individual woman, of course, there's lots of other people involved, but a bit more about her in terms of her politics, her background, who she's supported of late politically. In many ways, she's sort of a classic conservative lawmaker. She grew up in rural Mississippi, a town called Holly Springs, grew up near a family farm, which featured buildings with old Confederate generals. Her father, Bill Fitch, actually moved the home of the original KKK wizard onto their property, became a lawyer, went to Ole Miss, the kind of the Mississippi's great university, became a lawyer, had three kids, got divorced, and about in 2009, entered state

politics. She's a trailblazer in many ways. She's the first female attorney general in Mississippi's history. But ever since she's entered, she's really maintained conservative politics, linked herself closely to then President Donald Trump and her election, and has sort of continued in those politics the entire way. And her language, her choice of language, her use of language, some have described it as she's using the language of feminism to argue women do not need abortion anymore. Yes, it's an increasingly common tactic, at least that's what pro-choice advocates will say, that anti-choice advocates and

anti-abortion advocates are trying to co-opt feminist language. So you'll see slogans like equality begins in the womb, suggesting that fetuses deserve gender equality too. You'll see things like if you're against violence against women, how can you support abortion? Because that's an act of violence. And Lynn Fitch is very careful. I think she's presented a new sort of softened face of the anti-abortion movement. I'm a mother. I love my children, and I want women to do everything they want to do and look at me. And she is sort of the best case for her argument, right? She's risen to some of the highest levels of state government while raising three kids by herself.

So she sort of says it's about empowerment, we want you to have both. And in her words, the pro-abortion lobby has made women choose family or career, but not both. Let's look at opinion just for a last minute or so while we are together. The opinion across the board, not in her state. What is that about this as we await this decision with Roe v. Wade? It's a great question because while the discourse has gotten intense, the actual public polling has remained relatively stable over the past decade. And that's at about 60% of Americans support abortion. They're pro-abortion in some or all cases. And this is actually flipped in Lynn's home state. So you've

got 60% of Mississippians against abortion, almost the direct opposite of the rest of their country. Do we know when the ruling will appear? I think best guess of the next, with kind of rolling guesses, my best guess is a week Thursday. We will hear decisions tomorrow. We're not sure what they'll be until we've heard them, but I'm putting my money on next Thursday. Holly, we'll perhaps talk again.

Thank you very much. The BBC's Holly Hendrick there from Washington, D.C., with that pending decision and a lot of people thinking about where things in America are going to end up when it comes to that particular debate. We'll keep you across it. Messages coming in. I've been a Kate fan all my life.

I just had to pull over in my car, says Susan. Seems right and reverential to listen to Kate properly. Should be at a meeting, but this is too important. Thanks so much, Woman's Hour, for bringing a piece of magic to my life today. Kate sounded as cool, happy and as brilliant as always. Susan in Nottingham, hope you get to the meeting. You've got a good excuse. Are you going to say the truth? Hope you do. But thank you so much. Keep those messages coming in on 84844. Let me tell you something else completely different, though. Twice as many women than men are receiving electroconvulsive therapy,

ECT for short, according to researchers at the University of East London. ECT is used to treat a range of mental health issues including severe depression, long-lasting mania and catatonia. But a freedom of information request sent to 20 NHS trusts has also revealed that older women are more likely to be receiving this kind of treatment. Researchers are concerned ECT can cause memory loss and that patients are not given sufficient information about this to make informed decisions before giving consent to this treatment. Well, let's hear from one of the lead researchers, clinical psychologist Dr Chris Harrop and Dr Trudy Senevarate, Registrar of the Royal College of Psychiatry. I spoke to him just before coming on air this morning and I started by asking Dr Trudy to explain to us

what electroconvulsive treatment entails. So in terms of how it's used, it's used with general anaesthetic. So it's like having an operation, you have a general anaesthetic, somebody is fast asleep, they're given a muscle relaxant and then what happens is that they're given a very very brief pulse of electro electricity pulses of electricity sometimes to one side of the brain sometimes to both and the that induces a short fit that lasts a few minutes at the most they then recover fully from that and are looked after as one does when they've had an anesthetic and that's the process of having ECT itself sometimes it happens in hospital when somebody is an inpatient but people also have it as an outpatient

treatment and then they are allowed to recover afterwards. I was going to say, I think if you know nothing about it, that can sound not frightening, but it sounds a lot as a treatment. You are at pains, of course, to talk about how it does work, can work and when it's used appropriately. Why is it used? Who is it prescribed to and in what circumstances? Yes, so we use it really for really poorly, really unwell people. So we're talking about severe depression. We're talking about severe depression when a word called catatonia, when somebody is not moving, they're not talking, they're not eating or drinking, they might be at risk of dying, or they have a severe depression that simply is not responding to other types of treatment like psychological talking treatments, or indeed medication. So

there's a real risk to their life. And occasionally, it's used in conditions like mania, when people are very, very high, again, when nothing else is working. So, you know, it's used in conditions like mania when people are very, very high. Again, when nothing else is working. So, you know, it's used in extreme circumstances and the condition is life threatening. Chris, let me bring you in at this point. Your team did this freedom of information request to 20 different NHS trusts. Why? We'd heard anecdotally about what was practiced, which to us didn't sound like it fitted the guidelines for this. There's very clear structure for doing ECT. You might be

monitoring a lot for cognitive as it goes along and afterwards. You might be getting very clear, informed consent. Many people know about the risks. And like most of your listeners, we weren't even sure how many people got it nowadays. So I'm sure people will be surprised it still goes on. So we did these Freedom of Information Quests to see how many people got it. And it's about two and a half, 3,000 people in England. Of course, internationally, it's much more widely used. And you were concerned because you didn't think it was going to the right people? Well, NICE guidelines is very clear that it should be used very cautiously with women and older adults because they're the people most likely to get cognitive impairment, brain damage from this. In one study, 80% of the people who got brain damage were female.

And we found, not surprisingly, that the majority of people, two thirds of people who got ECT were women. 60% were old radicals. So it's basically been used extensively against NICE guidelines for the people most at risk for being damaged by it. And because people aren't warned of these risks at all, none of the information sheets we looked at given to patients and families mentioned that it shouldn't be given to women. None of them mentioned that older people were more at risk from this. Trudy, what's your response to that? Yeah, can I pick up on a couple of points?

So first of all, Chris, I really want, you know, this is going out to the general public, ECT does not cause brain damage. There is absolutely no, let me finish, forgive me. It does not cause brain damage. It does not cause epilepsy, brain damage. There is absolutely no suggestion it cause brain damage. It does not cause epilepsy, brain damage. There is absolutely no suggestion it causes brain damage. There are side effects that affect memory and cognitive deficits.

I can talk more about that. But just being very clear, it does not cause brain damage. The other thing is, yes, two thirds of women are affected, but there are reasons for that. More women have depression in the first place than men. We look at rates of depression across the world, right across the lifespan, more women have depression than men. So that's one factor. Actually, as people get older, there are more women in the population. Women also come forward with depression much more readily than men do. So it's simply representing the demographics and epidemiology of us as people and those numbers. And there was a last point you said, and I've completely lost what you said.

There was a third point I wanted to mention. What you were talking about, Chris was just, I'm sorry, I'll bring you back in in a moment. But in case it was this, Chris was mentioning about people not being warned of the risks. Oh, yes, absolutely. Thank you. That was it. Yeah, that's, again, simply not true. Bearing in mind, you know, you mentioned the figure of only two to two and a half thousand people being used, and we use it far less. So we're talking about a very small number of people receiving it in the UK. The rest of the world is much better at using ECT. The States and Europe is much better. More people receive it. Six

times more people receive it, which means that six times more people have a miraculous life-saving treatment for severe depression. And people are given information and advice. Certainly, you know, I'm a practising psychiatrist working in the perinatal period, looking after women who develop severe mental health problems in pregnancy and afterwards. And actually, you know, people are given information, given advice, and also their partners, families, are given that information and advice.

Trudy, Trudy, can I just break in here? Because, of course, you're talking about the same thing, but in very different ways. I am going to bring Chris back. But do you not have any concerns about what Chris has discovered? Because not everybody, talking more broadly across the NHS and across our health service, will always do everything correctly. Yes. I mean, I guess I can't speak for every single nhs clinical service there is however there is a very robust process of consent you know some people give consent to we have to remember some people give consent to having ect when they understand what's going on and they they

they they want to have ect in fact i can think of three women under my care in the last three months who asked for ECT. Let me... In fact, there are some people who are not able to give consent because they are so sick. It's important to bring Chris back in. May I just do that? Chris, please. What do you want to say?

Yeah, wow. Well, I'm a bit shocked at the kind of hardline position you've taken there, Trudy, but let me put some counter arguments to that. one of them is uh you literally don't know how many people have had cognitive impairments as a result of ect because routinely it is not measured for the trust we talked to uh i think one in six actually had any kind of cognitive tests and half the tests are used with completely inappropriate to pick up the kind of brain damage cognitive long-term impairment sorry uh that we're talking about in ect so very few people are even

assessed for that there are many credible studies showing long-term impairment from a range between 12 and 60 percent uh if you ask the patients themselves six up to 60 percent will say yes they had long-term problems and it has permanently affected them. I think 12 is a more internationally accepted minimum level for this. And many places that they are routinely screening session by session for damage through ECT. None of them in the UK. And also the information given, if I can finish, you've had quite a bit of time. The information given to patients absolutely minimises it, probably much in the same way you've just done, actually.

It doesn't mention 60% of people feeling they've been damaged by this. It's a very small number and they always feel better. They recover as you just blandly just threw out there. I'd love to know which data you're basing that on, right? NICE is reviewing the guidelines for depression. A consultation conference came out in November. I'm sure you've seen it. If you look in the appendix of that, it looks at the evidence quality for ECT

and it's low, low, low, low, low, all the way through. There is no good, decent quality evidence, both the efficacy and safety of ECT. They've been arguing this for ages, but no placebo-based studies have been done since 1983, which is kind of pre-evidence-based medicine. So I'd love to know... Chris, I will bring to you, of course I will, just one moment, but just a question back to Chris,

if I can. In terms of people still having this today, you know, or at the moment, this will still be going on, this treatment, and Trudy talking about the fact that it's safe and that there are guidelines being followed with this. Do you not accept that? Do you think, for instance, this treatment shouldn't be happening at the moment, Chris? Would you go that far? I'm agnostic about that. So the dilemma we've got here is that some people do like the treatment and get a benefit from it. But there's a lot of people who say they've been damaged by it. There's a whole pool of very damaged patients out there who've had ECT and they're very angry about this. In fact, they're bringing legal cases about this on the basis of informed consent. So ethically, how do you combine those two? How do you give people the treatment which may help,

but also is potentially very risky? It has to be informed consent. So that has been the ethical workaround. But if you look at the information given, certainly the information sheets we audited, they were absolutely dreadful. And statements like eight out of 10 people get better. I mean, it's not based on anything. It's not based on research. If it is based on research, it's very, very low quality research. It doesn't meet modern standards. Trudy, what would you like to say? Okay, so look, you've made some interesting points, Chris,

but many are incorrect. So first of all, there is plenty of evidence-based research. We have what we call in research, randomized controlled trials. I'm aware of what an answer to you is. So do you mind if I just finish, please? So there are randomised controlled trials. There are placebo controlled trials that show efficacy.

There are NICE guidelines approved by NICE, which is the National Institute for Clinical Excellence. In fact, ECTAS, our own Royal College of Psychiatrists, linked a group, which is the ECT accreditation service, showed that 60, almost 70% of people receiving ECT in 2018-19 made significant improvements with people saying, patients, people saying they were much or very much improved as a result of ECT, which is fantastic for somebody who is so severely depressed, they could barely talk to you before they had ECT. And also up to, you know, going back to the, please stop using the word brain damage. We're talking, there is no evidence about brain damage, cognitive deficits and memory impairment. Yes. Our BAT-EXAS data also showed that around 40% of people described having temporary memory problems.

But we do know some people, a minority of people, do have much more severe long-term memory deficit and cognitive problems. But that's a minority. And we also showed that about 20% of people having ECT actually had quite severe cognitive problems before having ECT. Do you accept, if I can, Trudy, I'm so sorry to cut across, but if I can on this, because of course we're talking about this specifically on Women's Hour, because the data that we do have in terms of this Freedom of Information Request shows it's more women. You've also confirmed that. That's one data point you do agree on in terms of who gets this. But do you accept that in terms of the impact of this treatment, that it's not, data on that is not being collected well enough at the moment? You have cited some sources there, but in terms of the damage, potential damage, do you accept that that's

not good enough at the moment? Well, no, I don't agree with that. I think, you know, like with all these things, we need to continue collecting more data, don't we? But we are collecting really good data and there is good global data. And, you know, and I think we have to remember again, and forgive me for making this analogy with chemotherapy and cancer, really forgive me, but, you know, we have to remember

why we give ECT to people. We give it when someone is so poorly that nothing else is working. Medication isn't working, talking therapies are not working, they're moribund, not eating or drinking, they can't communicate with you. That's if they don't have consent or capacity. Those that have capacity agree to have the treatment because they recognise it's really working for them for their depression. Well, I think we can recognise... We have to, you know, just that's so important to hold on to. I think what is clear from this discussion, a recognition, is that you have quite a lot of

ground between you on which you don't meet as two individuals who care about this and know an awful lot but we're grateful to to have heard both of your your takes on this this morning and your expertise thank you very much to both of you thank you very much Emma Chris thank you Dr Chris Harrop Dr Trudy Senevratne registrar of the Royal College of Psychiatry and Dr Chris Harrop, who's one of the lead researchers who requested that information and a clinical psychologist. And I should say, if you are affected by any of the issues raised in that discussion, you can go to bbc.co.uk forward slash action line where you will find details of organisations

which offer support and advice with mental health issues. Now, so many of you have been getting in touch throughout the programme about Kate Bush and also how artists like her have helped you feel like you, you know, those connections they've helped you feel in yourself and with others. And just before coming on air, and what is a big week for music with Glastonbury, of course, starting today after a three-year gap due to the pandemic. What an amazing starting weather looking outside. I hope it's the same and it keeps going. I caught up with the DJ, broadcaster and now writer Annie Mack, because also there's been another big musical happening with the release of Beyonce's new single Break My Soul, which marks a change of musical genre of that, of Beyonce's new track.

But I started by asking Annie Mack about Kate Bush and what Kate means to her. When I saw that you had her on this programme today, I was genuinely, you know, genuinely just beside myself with excitement. There's not many artists around like Kate Bush who is uh kind of remains so elusive and so mysterious in this kind of very beautiful way and um I'm just so happy that this song has done what it's done and it's so kind of emblematic of how music is consumed these days with regards to there there isn't really any new or old anymore with the way streaming works you know if you're a kid you've got the entire world's music right in front of you um it's only

what's new to you that's such a good that's just to say i'm just going to say it's such a good point because you know we're probably now going to see especially there's some technical changes about the way they're going to count the number of streams but we are probably now going to see all sorts of tracks hit number one again from a variety because of that exact reason that you say. Yeah, and I can imagine a lot of A&R men in the industry are going to be looking up the archives, calling up the archive departments, going, what have we got?

Because it's such a good opportunity for old songs to be revisited. And I think what's also come through and is a theme around Kate Bush in particular is how she makes people feel they can be themselves. That's one of the things that helps people when they listen to her music, why they connected originally with her and perhaps why they're connecting again, a whole new generation. Absolutely. Yeah. And, you know, when you hear a song like this, that isn't kind of mixed and mastered in that kind of very glossy modern way and isn't made, you know, in a world in the context of TikTok and is, you know, really long and just, you know, a song that you're completely lost in that takes you on this journey. I'm just so happy that it's proven that a song like this can still do what it did whatever 37 years ago um indeed well well getting to getting to new songs sounds and glossy let's talk about Beyonce shall we because you also have shared on social media that you're rather excited about the fact she's gone towards house

with break my soul yeah I mean it's a great week for music um so that I mean that it's a great week for music. So that, I mean, that was such a surprise. I should have known when she put up the photo of her on a horse, you know, trying to maybe, you know, give a nod to Bianca Jagger at Studio 54. But yeah, it was such a wonderful surprise. And, you know, even though the house, the song that she has done is stylistically and sonically kind of a nod to 90s house music.

I feel like it's so fresh sounding and maybe it's just her on it, but it really, to me personally, is very exciting. And I think that there's, you know, it's not a mistake that she released it when she has in Pride Month. You know, she's very careful in everything with regards to the song credits and the nods and everything about the song that the it's you know, it's being the people behind house music and the culture of house music are being credited and seen in amongst all of this. Obviously, house music came from America. We owe that to Chicago and and the gay scene and the very marginalized people, you know, Latino and Black American gay men, mostly gay men. And it's great that she's able to kind of, you know, make sure that the people who originally wrote this song

are credited in the song credits. I'm just excited for the album. I mean, it's not going to be an entire album of house music. I mean, Drake has put out an album with loads of house music on it too. Over here in the UK, house music is pop music. You know, it has been for a long time, not quite so much in America. So it's really exciting to think that this music could actually become, you know, the music that every single artist wants to do. I can see that's that's that's you know going into your mind in a good way and you're you're excited about it and of course there's

also as you talk about a big week for music glastonbury back yes after after the long loss of you like because of the pandemic and people who've waited still had their tickets or or now going for the first time or going back again are you are you there this this year I am my head torch arrived this morning Emma good girl good woman um I am I'm camping I'm going Friday to Sunday and I'm actually DJing I've DJed all over at Glastonbury but I'm DJing on the Glade stage this year for the first time I've never played at and what's interesting that I just saw yesterday is that I'm on at the same time as two other headliners who are both female Billie Eilish and Little Sims and it's such a lovely world where you can play alongside other women of that brilliance um and you know testament to Emily Evers who's worked so hard to bring

Glastonbury lineups you know into a a really kind of equal place with regards to gender. So it's just so wonderful to be part of it. I'm so excited. I hope you have the most amazing time. I hope it's all that you're hoping for and everyone around you as well. Is there a particular act that you're very excited to see that's on your list? I don't know if you still do that or you float along or are you very organised? No, I'm not very organised organized I do tend to float along but the one person I want to see is Paul McCartney I just I just feel like this is a very very big opportunity to see him uh play a once in a lifetime gig for all of us you know so I just want to be there yeah well I was just thinking because yesterday I interviewed uh Olivia Harrison it's just released this beautiful book of poetry 20 years on after the death of George Harrison.

So we did have some messages on the programme yesterday about people's memories when they have seen The Beatles. And, you know, those memories stay with you, don't you? You remember those things forever and you want to make those memories. Completely. Yeah. And that's what Glastonbury, Glastonbury is always another, like a higher plane when it comes to performances and the kind of interaction between a crowd and an artist. But when it comes to someone like Paul, of that stature and that kind of cultural weight, I just think you'd be mad not to be there.

I hope you enjoy it. Or watch it, of course. With your head torch. Yes. Annie, go do it. Go and tear it all up and enjoy it as well as a citizen, as well as a performer. Annie Mack, thank you.

Thank you, Emma. And thank you for your company today and all of your messages. And big thanks to Kate Bush for coming onto the programme. Viv in Leicester, she says, I just wanted to say how much running up that hill, which is, of course, with what she's number one at of the charts right now, has helped my 12-year-old daughter after losing her 20-year-old brother, my son, a few months ago. The parallels with Max in Stranger Things are there. She says it makes her feel strong too. And yes, we've had

the have you heard of Kate Bush mummy. Viv, thank you. Good morning to all of you. Back tomorrow at 10. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Thank so much for your time join us again for the next one what makes you feel physically and mentally stronger? the act of skating that's my zen that's my relaxation time that is the question I ask guests on my podcast to discover their secrets to health and happiness

I see going to bed at the right time as an investment in tomorrow rather than a sacrifice for today get inspiration from their achievements and find out how they take care of their physical and mental health. I think it is really important for us to reflect on what have we missed, you know. The new series of the Joe X podcast from BBC Radio 4. Subscribe now on BBC Sounds.