Woman's Hour - Kate Garner, Carly Perry, Kelly Lindsey, Kate Mosse, Bonnie Tyler, Dame Susan Ion, Charlotte Proudman

Episode Date: June 2, 2022

The songwriter and pianist Kate Garner is the daughter of Chas Hodges of Chas and Dave fame. Chas’s mother, Daisy, recorded a special tribute to the Queen for the silver jubilee back in 1977. But to celebrate the Queen’s Platinum Jubilee, Kate has decided to continue the family tradition and has penned her own song called Platinum Queen. She performs live and tells Nuala McGovern how her song prompted a response from the Queen herself.For the first time this year the Women’s FA Cup Final was played on the same weekend as the men’s and matches are seeing record attendance levels. Despite all this success a recent study has found that 86% of players in the Women’s Super League and Championship wanted or needed clinical support at some point during their playing years. The Lead author of the report, Carly Perry ,from the University of Central Lancashire found that only 50% of clubs represented by participants offered psychological support. She joins us alongside Kelly Lindsey from Lewes FC which is the only club in the world to pay it’s men and women’s teams equally. The Women’s Prize for Fiction has launched a campaign to encourage more men to read novels by women. Why? Because the stats are currently alarming. The research, conducted for Mary Ann Sieghart’s The Authority Gap, found that of the top 10 bestselling female fiction authors, including Austen, Atwood and Agatha Christie, only 19% of their readers are men. In comparison, for the top 10 bestselling male authors the split in readers is much more even at 55% men and 45% women. In other words, women are prepared to pick up novels by men, but men are much more reluctant to read novels written by women, regardless of the genre. We talk to Kate Mosse a best-selling novelist, playwright and founder director of the Women’s Prize for Fiction. Jubilee Birthday honours with singer Bonnie Tyler and nuclear engineer Dame Susan Ion and Charlotte Proudman on the fallout from the Heard/Depp libel trial in the USA.Presenter: Nuala McGovern Producer: Lisa Jenkinson Studio Engineers: Tim Heffer & Donald McDonald

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

Hello, this is Nuala McGovern, and you're listening to the Woman's Hour podcast. Well, hello and you're very welcome to Woman's Hour. Yes, I'm Nuala McGovern and delighted to be with you today. Perhaps you're hearing a little in the bulletin there about Johnny Depp and Amber Heard. Have you been following that defamation trial? Well, Depp, an American actor, he won his libel case over an article in which his ex-wife, Amber Heard, also an actor,

said she was a victim of abuse. But we're going to get into the verdict in a moment with barrister Charlotte Proudman. But really looking at the ramifications, the consequences of this ruling, some are asking, where does it leave the Me Too movement? Wherever you are in the country,

you probably know. It is the Jub Too movement. Wherever you are in the country, you probably know. It is the Jubilee weekend. Have you taken some time off? Maybe you're thinking about reading or maybe music is on the menu. Well, the Women's Prize for Fiction has launched a campaign. It is to encourage more men

to read novels written by women. The novelist Kate Moss, she's going to be with us. So why are so many men apparently disinclined to pick up a female authored book? Well, get your suggestions ready for what you would

recommend to such a man. Some of you have already on my Twitter feed which is at BBC Nuala. At BBC Woman's Hour is another of our Twitter feeds. I will be watching to see what you're suggesting. And music I mentioned, Kate Garner, daughter of Chas Hodges of Chas and Dave, yes,

will be with us playing her tribute to the Platinum Queen. I do have a grand piano in front of me. Looking forward to seeing Kate sitting at that within the hour. Our text, 844. Text will be charged at your standard message rate. So do check with your network provider for exact costs. Really looking forward to hearing from you this hour. Keeping me company on this Jubilee weekend.

But before all that, did you see that a record number of women have been included in the Queen's birthday honours list? So this is marking the Platinum Jubilee. 584 women, representing 51.5% of the total. So that trumps the previous record. That was 556 back in December of 2020. So the list, it has themes of sustained service and environmentalism.

It does offer a reflection of the Queen's own decades of public service. And despite a drive by the Honours Committee to increase female representation, women have remained underrepresented at the highest levels of the awards. So 44.8% for CBE level and above are female. There are 21 knighthoods and just 13 damehoods. Joining me now, I'm delighted to have as my first guest, is Bonnie Tyler, who has received an MBE gong for a music career spanning five decades.

But before we chat with Bonnie, I'm just going to play a clip. Why not? Holding out for a hero, one of Bonnie's many hits and full disclosure, a karaoke favourite of mine. Bonnie Tyler, it is so good to welcome you to Women's Hour

and congratulations. Well, good morning from a very, very happy Bonnie Tyler. I am ecstatic to have an MBE award and very, very grateful to all the charities that I have supported over the years. They all, each and every one of them, sent beautiful letters to my niece Dawn

that put the wheels in motion for me to have this award, you know. I can't believe it. I am so, so happy. Thank you, everybody. How did you find out? Tell us about the moment. Well, I had an email to say that I'd been awarded and going to be awarded the MBE and that I have to keep it quiet. This was about two weeks ago. Oh, dear. You know, I'm such a huge family, three sisters, two brothers, 16 nieces and nephews and 14

great nieces and nephews, you know, that it was awfully hard to keep it a secret. But I did because I didn't want the award taken away from me, you know. So but of course course now everybody knows and i couldn't be happier to celebrate with you know this wonderful day and you know for it to happen in a year that our her majesty the beautiful Queen, Platinum Jubilee, you know, aren't we lucky that we've got such a wonderful Queen and congratulations to her too. How are you going to celebrate? Well, I'm going to be very busy. in Mumbles in Wales tonight, Light in a Beacon, which then, that's televised, and then it goes straight to the palace there, Light in a Beacon.

And then I'm working on Saturday in Cardiff Castle. I'm singing with their orchestra three songs, three of my iconic songs. And that'll be the, you know, a great celebration up there, I'm sure. And also on Friday, I'm going to a party where there's going to be flags and everything, you know, a barbecue. The whole works.

You know, the weather is so beautiful at the moment. We've got blue skies. It's just all in all a wonderful day. I'm so blessed. You know, when you think about the young Bonnie performing in pubs and clubs in South Wales a good number of decades ago, what do you think she'd make of this moment?

Well, I never thought, you know, I'm one of five, seven children, you know, and I lived in a council house in a village called Skewen. So I'm just a normal girl from a small town, you know, and it just goes to show you that if you have dreams, which I did, I've always dreamt to be a singer in a band. And then I ended up making my own records, you know, and follow your dreams, you know. a wonderful award and I do work hard mind you know and I'm still what I class as a working class girl

because I do work very hard but I love what I do you see so it has its reward so you know I hope I can inspire some people to follow their dreams. I think inspiration is definitely part of the honours list.

And I think following your dreams, what a lovely sentiment. Bonnie, stay with us. I want to introduce you and our listeners to another woman included in the Queen's birthday honours list. That is Dame Susan Ean, who will receive Dame Grand Cross for international impact in her field and fostering the next generation of engineers from underrepresented groups. Congratulations. Congratulations to her.

Thank you very much indeed. Very surprised, very honoured and very humbled I have to say. Talk us through a little bit more about how you're feeling. Well just so surprised because it was just very, very unexpected and just a thrill as well. And as Bonia said, you know, this Platinum Jubilee year,

to receive it at the time of the Platinum Jubilee is spectacular. And I can see you on our connection and you are beaming and that's wonderful to see. Tell our listeners who may not be familiar with your work what it is that you do and why you have been awarded this honour. Well I guess I've been awarded it although it surprises me because there are so many fantastic engineers in the UK that could have received it for two reasons really. One my work in the UK that could have received it for two reasons, really. One, my work in the nuclear sector, both here in the UK and internationally, to explain the importance of nuclear energy and mitigating climate change and how important it is as an energy, secure energy

source for us in the future. And secondly, for the work that I do in trying to encourage particularly girls to study engineering, you know, to not just look at medicine, pharmacy, dentistry, although they are fantastically important, obviously, but to consider careers in engineering and to do engineering subjects when they move on from school. Why do you think there haven't traditionally been as many women or young girls you know thinking about going into that field? Interesting to hear Bonnie talk about you know dreams that she had as a as a young girl which then were so happily realised. What do you think might be standing in the way? Well I think some of it is just lack of knowledge of what engineers are and what engineers do,

because they cover everything from fashion to environmental science. So lots of things that people wouldn't naturally think of. And in schools, engineering isn't normally talked about. I mean, people tend to understand what they think a scientist does or what a doctor does, but they really don't know what engineers do. And so there's not enough visibility of how important engineering is to our economy in the future at school level. So I really enjoy going into schools and showing little clips from the Royal Academy of Engineering of a thing called This Is Engineering. And it is a really souped up video of the sort of spectacular things that engineers can do with lots of women in the video itself. Okay. A young woman or a girl is listening right now. What would

you say? I'd say just take a look at what's available for you in engineering and go for it because you have the most amazing career. You make a real difference to the world. And the jobs are just fantastic. They're enjoyable. And, you know, when you have a job that's enjoyable, that really helps you in your life generally. Oh, it's wise words. Let me turn back to you, Bonnie. Perhaps as an aspiring singer listening in. Well, you know, I started singing when I was 17 and a half. You know, you always count the half when you're younger. You don't like to count the half when you're getting older. And, you know, I mean, I was 17 when I started and I'm 17 now, you know, and I'm 70 now you know and I'm still working I'm still traveling the world I love what I do as the lady said before me you know it's just you gotta love what you do and if you don't love

what you do change it and do something you love I love the idea of of women going into engineering I think it's fantastic and the thing is in the the past, we would have just dismissed it, I suppose, as, oh, it's a man's job. But it's not. It's not. We can do things like that as well. We can do anything we want to do if we put your mind to it. I'm going to leave on those words, Bonnie Tyler and also Dame Susanine. Thank you so much for starting our programme off on this Jubilee weekend. Wonderful. Thank you. Now, let me turn instead to news you might have been following

over the past day or so. Some people gripped to it for weeks and that is about Amber Heard and Johnny Depp. Amber Heard saying she's heartbroken, Johnny Depp saying he Heard saying she's heartbroken, Johnny Depp saying he's got his life back. That is all about a verdict. A US jury has found that Amber Heard defamed ex-husband Johnny Depp in a newspaper article.

It was in the Washington Post. She claimed she was a victim of domestic abuse. Johnny Depp, who denied abusing Amber Heard, was awarded $15 million, so about £12 million in compensatory and also punitive damages. Amber Heard won

one of the three counterclaims against Johnny Depp, so she was awarded $2 million in damages with that. Apparently it was through his lawyer that she was defamed. The trial, which was televised, it gripped millions around the world, as I alluded to there.

And we've had the claim and the counterclaim. There were celebrities that were taking the stand. You might have caught some of that. There was definitely raw emotion on show. And I think at times disturbing details, really, of a dysfunctional relationship that were there for everyone to see. What is clear is that neither party has come out

of this well. We were hearing on Woman's Hour on Tuesday that there are serious concerns about the negative impact this trial could have on victims, maybe even fears that it could put them off pursuing a case, for example. We do have Charlotte Proudman with us, who is a barrister. You're very welcome to the programme. Charlotte, let me just, I can hear you. You can hear me OK? I can, I can hear very well. That's great. Thank you so much. I think as this verdict began to come out, there was a bit of back and forth before it was announced yesterday.

People trying to read the tea leaves, so to speak. But we do know what the verdict is now. But immediately people were wondering, because Johnny Depp de facto won his case, what it means for the Me Too movement or what the implications or ramifications might be. The Me Too movement is dead and buried. It's gone. Really? That's my view. I mean, it sounds dramatic, but yes. I mean, if you look back to what, five years ago or so when the Me Too movement started, it was about women finding a voice. And we are power in numbers. When we have numbers behind us, we are a sisterhood. We are a force to be reckoned with. And it was about women sharing their stories, what had happened to them, speaking about the abuse that they had suffered.

Why did they do that on social media? Because they knew they wouldn't be believed in a court of law or there wasn't the action available to them to be able to pursue their perpetrators within that avenue. And now five years later, after women previously have been silenced with NDAs and other forms of legal remedies, we're in a situation now where women are being told, as it seems, that they cannot speak out about the alleged abuse that they might have suffered, let alone naming their perpetrator. In this case, she said that she was a victim of domestic abuse and sexual violence. She didn't even name Johnny Depp. And it's important to remember that a High Court judge sitting in England and Wales found that, that is a fact. That is what a High Court judge found. And yet now we're in a situation, as it seems in the Virginia court, where women can't even speak out about their own truth or they could be facing an enormous legal battle

and significant sums of money and potentially bankruptcy. I mean, Charlotte, there's a lot to unpick there. And of course, as we've seen such division when it came to this particular case before and after the verdict. But why do you think there was that difference between court rulings in the UK and the US, if you know? Well, I mean, I think we can only all speculate. I mean, what I can say is that this is a high court judge clearly experienced in dealing with cases of this nature and clearly had a handle as well of the media. The high court judge did not allow this to become a media circus. In contrast, what we've seen in the US is, has been live streamed on YouTube, one of the first trials of alleged sexual violence and domestic abuse and alleged coercive and controlling behavior, where the whole world has comments at the top, but also TikTokers and the younger generation participating

in the mocking and humiliation of a complainant and is found in England and Wales a victim of domestic abuse. That is the kind of society that we're living in. The courtroom has become nothing more than a circus and allowing this to take place. And my concern is that the court has become a forum now in which it has legitimized and normalized the retraumatization of a victim of domestic abuse. It has said that this is okay. This is what happens. It sent out a message to women, girls, even male victims of domestic abuse,

that if you go to court, if you allege domestic abuse, your mental health will be trialled over. They will look at whether you have a personality disorder. You will be blamed. They'll look at the bruising. They'll ask why you didn't leave. They'll ask why you didn't escape. You will be the person that's put on trial in what is nothing more than a horrendous ordeal. And we need to look at ourselves and look whether an adversarial legal system really is the right way to deal with claims of sexual violence, particularly when the whole world is watching and judging. When you talk about the court and what Amber Heard went through there, I mean, it's interesting. I don't totally understand it, but why people, a lot of young women as well, then sided with Johnny Depp, some that didn't even know who he was before this trial.

And I don't know what that says about society. I can hear what you believe that is. But there are others, you know, that talk about Amber Heard isn't every woman, that this case was unique, that in fact, this was very much between two very high profile Hollywood celebrities, and that it's not the same as a case that would be for the average person. What would you respond? Well, I would respond to that as a barrister, especially in the family courts where the courts are closed, and it's almost impossible for women and girls to speak out about the abuse that they've experienced I would say that this trial is not unusual sadly and I think it sends out quite a strong message to victims of domestic

abuse that this is how you could be treated in a courtroom I see all the time women being diagnosed with personality disorders when quite clearly they have PTSD because of the trauma they've experienced as a result of domestic abuse. You know, in this way, medicalization of women and girls and pathologizing them has become a handmaiden to misogyny. And that's what we're seeing not only play out in this trial, but also within the court in Germany. And I think one of the things that you picked up on perhaps, and no doubt many others have, is this notion that Amber Heard is not a perfect victim. There is no such thing as a perfect victim.

If there's one thing I want people to take away from this trial, it is that victims behave in all manner of ways. I've seen victims in a courtroom shouting, screaming, crying, disassociating, appearing cold. You know, some people might even say calculated or manipulative. They just literally cannot win. Every victim who's experienced trauma behaves in a totally different way. And there's this kind of misconception that victims are cowering in a corner of a room. They don't speak back and they don't retaliate. And we know that's not true.

Victims will often respond, whether it comes with verbal behaviour or it might come with fighting back. And that's OK. You can do all of that and still be a victim of domestic abuse. We need to get rid of this notion of being a perfect victim or being an ideal victim. That just doesn't exist. So with that, and I think a lot of people are talking about the perfect or the imperfect victim, but you know, when you came on, Charlotte, you said you believe the Me Too movement is now dead and buried. Can it be revived? Do you really think that's the end of it? Can it just end over one case and how the public reacted to this Hollywood drama, for want of a better term, that played out before our eyes? I mean, we call it a Hollywood drama and I understand why we do.

But we have to remember at the heart of this is a woman who was found in this country to be a victim of domestic abuse and the way she's being mocked and humiliated suggests to me that we have a very long way to go before anything such as the Me Too movement or any other movement of that nature could be resurrected. I'm always hopeful and as a feminist and as a barrister I am hopeful that we will eventually live in a world where women are liberated and we're no longer subject to the patriarchy but this case is a classic example of misogyny in action not only in terms of in the media but also as it's played out in the courtroom with the entire world watching and laughing at her literally laughing at a complainant of sexual violence is that the kind of world that we want to live in? Because it's sending out a message

that that kind of behaviour is acceptable and normal. And every single woman, girl, man, boy watching that, if they become a victim of domestic abuse, will no doubt be fearful about speaking up and will wonder if their friends and their family are going to laugh at them. Well, I'm just seeing a comment that has come in from somebody identifying as La Capel. Thank you for your comment. It says so many of her claims talking about Amber Heard, Charlotte, were unsubstantiated that she made it very difficult for both abused men and women to come forward when they do just tell the truth. They know what has taken place within that relationship, rightly or wrongly.

And a lot of people just didn't believe Amber Heard. Well, I mean, it's interesting to me that the vast majority of people did not believe Amber Heard and sided with a man who had been on their screens for, what, two, three decades, who'd become this lovable character who personified joy, fame, money, Hollywood status. And many people, I think, wanted to believe him, wanted to relate to him in a way that they just couldn't with Amber Heard. I mean, one of the things that really struck me was this, when it was trending on Twitter, that Amber Heard is not nice, they just don't like her. And it made me think that as a woman and a girl, the way in which we're socialized to be liked, and now there's this notion that in order to be a real victim, you also need to be a likable victim, which means conforming to a particular stereotype

of how a victim behaves, which is not realistic at all, but it's one in which we've seen played out, interestingly, in movies written by men, played by women. The entire thing is just nothing more than a playbook. And it's interesting to me that many people think that Johnny Depp is a victim of domestic abuse, despite the high court ruling, despite the fact that he said he wanted to rape and, you know, her dead cops. I don't know if I can say that. So I apologize to those people that are listening. And along with threatening her with global humiliation, because that's what he wanted to do to her. And yet many people still side with him. Now, if that is not abuse, I don't know what is.

So Charlotte, I do want to just say to our listeners, of course, these are very difficult topics. There can be disturbing details as well as we talk about this particular trial. But before I let you go, and Manny did believe he was abused, I have seen those comments as well

come up over the past day. DARVO was a concept that was talked about. Deny, attack and reverse victim and offender. You talked about the UK finding him guilty in the sense of that he was a wife beater. I have to repeat that the US court in Fairfax, Virginia, they ruled in favour of Johnny Depp. He won his case of that Amber Heard had defamed him. But that DARVO, the acronym, is that a tactic briefly being used in British courts? Yes, it is. It's used, I would say, in the vast majority of my cases now. What I mean by that is

when an allegation, for example, of rape or domestic abuse is made and it's often by one because the vast majority of victims are women unfortunately it's met with instantly a claim of domestic abuse or coercive and controlling behavior by the alleged or sometimes found perpetrator so the abuse which she alleges is reversed and she And it's used to attack her in suggesting that she is actually a perpetrator. And in my view, this is what we're seeing play out in courtrooms up and down the country. And it's interesting that, of course, as you've mentioned, we've seen in England and Wales him to be found to be a wife beater in Virginia. It's found that she has defamed him, even though she didn't even mention him.

She didn't even use Johnny Depp, those two words. But the jury, of course, they did disagree as we heard play out. Thank you so much, Charlotte Proudman, for speaking with us. This is a case that an awful lot of people have strong opinions on. And if you weren't aware of the London case,

that was a London Libel court action that Depp brought against The Sun and its editor and found that it was substantially true that Depp was a wife beater. Something that I think we have not heard at the end of when it comes to the Me Too movement. We'll continue to cover it. Interesting. She brought up the likeable aspect. We were talking about that yesterday on Women's Hour when it came to the office. Right. I mentioned reading. Women's Prize for Fiction has launched a campaign to encourage more men to read novels by women.

Why? Because the stats are kind of alarming. So the research, this is conducted by Marianne Seagart's The Authority Gap, found that the top 10 best-selling female fiction authors, including Austen, Atwood, Agatha Christie, only 19% of their readers are men. That's in comparison with the top 10 best-selling male authors, the split in readers, they're much more even, 55% men, 45% women. So in other words, women are prepared to pick up novels by men, but men are much more reluctant to read novels written by women, regardless of the genre. So Kate Moss is bestselling novelist, playwright, founder, director of the Women's Prize for Fiction.

Kate joins me now. You're so welcome. Were you surprised by those statistics? I was not surprised, I'm afraid. No, no. It's our old friend, the idea of neutral literature, you know, what literature is with a capital L. And there's always been this idea, and this is kind of how it's taught in schools and colleges and universities, that there are books that are literature and classics,

and they're not written by men or women, they're just kind of above everything. And then there are books by women that are sort of peripheral to that. Whereas, of course, the truth is that every book has an author. So a lot of this comes from the fact of what we study in schools. And that hasn't changed enough. So there is an organization called End Sexism in Schools. And they looked into the Key Stage 3 curriculum and discovered that 77% of schools taught only one or no whole text by female writers. So what you're getting there is the idea that, you know, writing is the business of men with beards and everything else is kind of a sort of peripheral thing. So women writing about women are for women, but men writing about anything is for all of us. And women read both. You know, we, you could either say that, you know, we are very open. Most of us pick up a book

and if we like the idea of it and we like the sound of the story and we like the writing style, we give it a go as the stats show. Whereas men are often encouraged. It's not only from the classroom, it's also from jackets and marketing. Men are still encouraged to think of books written by women, particularly if they have male protagonists as being only for women. And this is a shame because it means that wonderful men who would love amazing books by women are missing out. And of course, that's why I and others founded the Women's Prize 27 years ago, to say, these are incredible books, give them a go. You'll love them. Well, you know, we're throwing it out to our audience, right, at BBC Women's Hour for their suggestions, which they can start bringing them in and,

you know, maybe giving some man an idea of what he might like to dip into over this Jubilee weekend. I probably should do full disclosure again. I was doing my karaoke hits earlier with Bonnie Tyler. I generally will pick up a novel written by a woman. I am a little bit sexist in my reading, I think. I started trying to think, why do I do that? You know, I think I'm looking for a female protagonist, maybe. I think that's a big part of it.

And I think also that, of course, we all have different tastes. You know, I write adventure fiction. And when my very first adventure novel, Labyrinth, was coming out in 2005, I was wearing a jacket and it got a load of pink flowers up the side. And my agent and I said, we lose the flowers. Because it immediately was saying, oh, this is kind of a girl's version of adventure. Whereas I write about war and the consequences of war

and faith and the consequences of faith. And so it was important that I didn't have a feminized jacket. Now, it works the other way. Quite often you see books that are, quote, intended for men, which has always got a shadowy man running down some kind of dodgy alleyway with a gun over his shoulder. So it's different in different kinds of genre. But the bigger point is, it's about the honouring of all human experiences. You know, we've been listening to a whole host of stuff on this brilliant show today. And, you know, there's no doubt that if women read books about men and men read books about women, a lot of the misunderstandings go away.

Books help us to stand in other people's shoes. It helps us with empathy. They help us to be bigger than just ourselves and our own experiences. And so we asked a lot of men, like Richard Curtis said, he's reading a lot of women to put back 63 years of male bias. And he chose Olive Kitteridge. Ian McEwan chose the wonderful Dutch writer Hannah Beervoet. Andrew Marr chose Ali Smith. So we asked lots of men, OK, you tell us the one book by a woman that you think all men should read. And people have leapt into that. And this is a celebration. It's a celebration of great writing. But gentlemen, you are very welcome. This is the point, that books written by women are for you too. And your life will be so much happier if you read the Women's Prize.

So I like this one from Kavita Pillay. She says, anything by Eleanor Ferrante, but then he'd know too much and we can't have that. Oh, I see. We're all becoming spies now. Exactly. Yeah, I get it. I have a few others here as well. Somebody getting into saying

they don't understand the reluctance now. Says, eyeballing the piles of book either side of the bed, it's at least 75% female authorship. Okay. Well, that's good to hear. A delightful novel, says Amanda Craig,

for the Jubilee Weekend and Woman's Hour is Sophia Bennett, A Three Dog Problem, her series about the Queen as a detective. Oh, I like that. That's very on point,

I have to say, for this weekend, isn't it? Let me see. Anything by Olga Tartuchuk. Let me get her Anything by Olga Tartuchuk. Let me get her name correct. Tartuchuk. So I don't know that one, but I am totally open to it.

Maybe the men are too. Fix the System, Not the Women by Laura Bates. Yes. And I've just, my new non-fiction book coming out in the autumn is about nearly a thousand women

who have been left out of history or their achievements misattributed and there are lots of those kind of books but I think with novels it's just about that idea of curling up with the story isn't it and so we're actually doing you know a vote so please come and join the women's prize say the books that you love and you'd like to uh you know press into the hands of the men and the boys that you adore, because you know they'll love them. You know, books are for everybody. And this is what this campaign is about.

You know, men, come and join us. The water's warm. Yeah, I mean, I'm wondering, have you had any feedback so far to pushing this idea in the sense of whether people are coming around? Well, I think, you know, when I was doing all these interviews nearly 30 years ago, setting up the prize, I was told two things. The first thing was, there isn't a problem, because if women were any good, they'd win the real prizes. And so then I would say, well, these are the statistics that even though 60% of novels written are written by women, only 9% of novels ever shortlisted for major literary prizes by women.

And so then after that, it would be like, oh, yeah, but, you know, writing is above gender. And I'd say absolutely right. But then when you look, for example, if The Times did the best 50 books of the past 70 years, they asked more men than women and men chose books by men over two to one, whereas women tended to be more even-handed. So this issue about honouring and keeping books on the shelf, if you like, what become the classics of tomorrow from today, there is a serious point to it. And we've actually had enormously positive responses to this

because actually people agree that a lot of people are worried about men and boys stopping reading novels. I don't think anybody should be worried about anything. If you're reading, you're reading. And we shouldn't be judging what people are reading and all of that. But it does matter because actually the way that books stay on the shelves so that future generations can find them is partly because they are seen as important. that sort of sense. If women are the majority of buyers of fiction and the majority of readers, it's when the figures go a bit wonky the other way, you realise that that isn't about people just making a choice. There is that underlying sense that what men write is more

valuable than what women write. Kate Moss, thank you so much. We'll be looking at our bookshelves a little bit differently now. Have a wonderful Jubilee weekend. Thanks for spending some of it with us. Speaking of the Jubilee,. Thanks for spending some of it with us. Speaking of the Jubilee, we do have a real treat for you on tomorrow's programme with a special edition of Woman's Hour.

All about some of the greatest queens from history. Anita Rani will be speaking to five royal biographers about their particular favourite. You'll hear Alison Weir, Tracy Borman, Kate Williams,

Chan, also Lady Antonia Fraser who's passionate about the last French queen, Marie Antoinette, who she explains could have had a very different history. She does love music and genuinely knew the little Mozart. They were the same age.

And there's a story he tried to kiss her at the Austrian court, which I believe. And another story, which I'd like to believe, that he asked to marry him at six. Because if Mozart had married Marianne Trinette, it's one of the great counterfactuals of history. First of all, Mozart would have been rich. So would he have given us what we love more than life, the music of Mozart? And then she'd have been a sort of Viennese house frow and presumably would have lived a long life. I will be tuning in. That is just after 10 tomorrow. I just want to go back

to the Amber Heard, Johnny Depp defamation trial because a lot of you got in touch tweeting in reaction to what you were hearing as I spoke with Charlotte Proudman. One, that is rubbish. Me too has become men too. That is one opinion. Another tweet.

So many of her claims are unsubstantiated. I did mention this to Charlotte that she made it very difficult for both abused men and women to come forward when they do just tell the truth. Another, I went into the Dep Herd trial with an open mind leaning towards her, but the evidence was so clear. There was no

evidence of him abusing her, but so, so much evidence of her being cruel and violent towards him. Please present a balanced view. Well, I hope I did put across the, you know, we have to remember that the jury did find in his favour, the UK, it was a different case, it was a different time

in a different jurisdiction. That is me saying that, not the tweeter. Next tweet. Did Charlotte watch the trial at all? If she did, she would not be talking like this. Johnny is a victim for heaven's sake. That's an opinion that we heard echoed quite a bit. And

also responding to Charlotte, this tweeter saying, it's going to be worse now if you can't talk about your abuse without risk being sued. Women victims are not believed. And that was Charlotte talking about that in that Washington Post article that was the centre of the whole debacle. Johnny Depp was not actually

named. We continue. Okay. I want to talk a little bit about football and also mental health. For the first time this year, the Women's FA Cup final was played on the same weekend as the men's and was watched by a record crowd. Next month, England is hosting

the Women's European Championship. Despite all this success, a recent study has found that 86% of players in the Women's Super League and also the Championship wanted or needed psychological support at some point during their playing years. Carly Perry is a PhD student from the University of Central Lancashire and found that only 50% of clubs represented by participants

offered that psychological support. I'm pleased to say Carly joins me now. Hello, Carly. Hi, thanks for having me. Good to have you with us. Also joining us is Kelly Lindsay, who is performance manager for Lewis FC based in the south of England. That is the only club to pay its men and women players equally.

Well, that's a cause for celebration, Kelly. Absolutely is. It's a great club to work for. So thank you for having me on the show. Well, let's start with you, Kelly. I mean, is this something that you have seen, that you have heard, that your players want? And I'm curious whether it makes any difference gender-wise. Oh, absolutely. I think, you know think every player you have is a human being

and I think 100% of human beings need this help and support. And when you use the word mental health, it's become this, there's a stigma, it was negative, now it's positive. What is mental health? It's hard to describe. I think the point is every human being has a mind and a heart and a soul and a body,

and we have to make sure we're healthy all throughout it. So this is a huge issue, challenge. Hopefully clubs are starting to take it on. But if we want human beings to perform at their highest level in life, we have to make sure we actually care for them 100% around every aspect of them as a human. So this is extremely important. And I'm really glad that Carly wrote the article and did the study. So Carly, yeah, tell us more Carly about what you found. Yeah, so the footballers have similar rates of symptomology around depression and anxiety. So

that as the general population, I should say, so that wasn't super rare. But what was really interesting was that 86% did want psychological support. And that stems from either sports psychology, counseling therapy, all the way to clinical psych. And I didn't ask for that specific answer in the survey. But I think the 86%, that number is important because it actually shows that players want help. And I think that's a positive. I don't think that's a negative. If we had the demands put on us that these footballers have every single day, I mean, being a human is hard enough already, and then add on all the professional components,

I think that's totally warranted and something that we need to help the players get. Do you know what sort of psychological support is needed? I mean, what is it specifically about being a football player that, I don't know, where the help is needed? Is it about resilience? Is it about dealing with anxiety? Yeah, so that kind of brings in the bigger argument around like what is mental health and what do we need to flourish and how can we use mental health as a resource for performance and also every everyday life and I think what the footballers would be looking for I mean you'd have to ask them but it's going to in a moment is just support around navigating all these different demands.

And especially here in England, it went from football rapidly professionalized just in the last couple of years. So the demands that are placed on them, they never necessarily had experience with that growing up. And all of a sudden they're tasked with navigating this really cool career. But also, as I'm sure they'd all share, definitely challenging at times. So, yeah, I think just holistic support is the psychological support they were likely indicating. Well, let's turn back to Kelly, you know, because, you know, there may be people talking about, you know, maybe they're off work today, but they're like, I get stressed at work, you know,

I'm not offered any specific psychological support for my job. What is it,, you know, maybe they're off work today, but they're like, I get stressed at work. You know, I'm not offered any specific psychological support for my job. What is it, do you think, Kelly, about being a footballer that is perhaps an extremely high level, making really important decisions that impact the lives not only of themselves and their career and their contract and if they'll be able to feed their family tomorrow. And when I say that, let me take out, I know there are some men who make millions and billions. Let's take those out, especially when we're talking about the women's game. The women are making only a salary, barely enough to pay their bills, barely enough to put food on the table, barely enough to feed themselves at an elite level to nourish their body to actually be a professional athlete. So when you're talking about having to make these intense decisions consistently

every day at training in a 90-minute game over and over, it's really, really difficult and stressful knowing they could lose their job at any moment, knowing they might not have a contract at the end of the year. It also, because the women's game is just now professionalizing, even coaches and staff aren't getting huge salaries. So everyone's impacted because a coach could lose their job in a moment's notice. And this is putting intense pressure on players. And most of these players, I mean, you're talking 18 to 21-year-olds under the pressure of a high-level CEO. We haven't prepared them for this. We haven't discussed this.

We haven't educated them on how to understand this pressure, live their life to this level, really be a professional human being, let alone a professional athlete. So there's a whole ecosystem we need to put around these players to make sure they actually build the resilience, the understanding, the education, the leadership, and have the experience to take this on. I'm wondering as well, because the game being professional since 2018, you have an American accent, as does Carly. You know, American, the women's football or soccer, I suppose, as you would call it in the United States, has been more established, right? There's a lot of those big, big stars that we've known for years. Have they gone through that process already? I know at times perhaps the United States might be more open to psychological support than the UK may have been in past years? I think, you know, I just want to preface, every athlete goes through these challenges. So there

is no country or no person who's better or worse than the rest. But I will say in the US, the difference we have is we've put education and sport performance at an equal playing field. So we're expected as athletes in the U.S., if you want to get a college education and you're going to be an athlete, your education is equally as important as your athletic skills. So we go into a very professional system in the U.S. and universities. So we do have a lot of support around us where you have people helping you with your academics, your nutrition, your sports science, the medical. So we're over that four year period, you're teaching athletes how to take care of their body, how to ask questions, how to protect themselves. It's not perfect science. And there's tons of athletes over there going through difficult situations. But there is a system and a structure where here in England for women, how many of them have been in a professional environment in the past three or four years?

I'd say one percent, maybe. So it's a you know, we really need to put the structure and the education around so that we can teach athletes how to advocate for themselves, how to ask questions, how to navigate and how to use the support. Do you offer support at Lewis? Yeah, we have a great system here where we have we have the use the support. Do you offer support at Lewis? Yeah, we have a great system here where we have the mental health support, we have the sports psychology support, we have clinical support outside of Lewis FC. But I will say the one thing I've learned this year, I just came in in September, and the athletes didn't actually know how to use the support. So for the first four to six months, I was, why are they not using the psychologist? Why are they not using the mental health support?

We have everything. But it took us about six to eight months to actually educate the athletes on who these people are. Why are they here? How does this help your career? How does this help you as a human being? And put a safe environment for them to start asking questions and learning how to use the support.

So I think that's a really important case. We have to actually educate athletes on how to use this 360. And so now they are taking what's on offer? Yes. Any difference between the men and women on the pickup? The men actually asked for it first because most of them, we're a non-league team, but most of them have come from a professional academy environment

and they need it even more because they're trying to elevate their career back up. Carly, I just want to go back to you briefly I did also see with your report that 36% of players experience disordered eating symptoms what do you mean by that? So you know with questionnaires and scales they're always a bit iffy here and there but yeah 36% reported disordered eating symptoms and it's really important that I say symptoms and not a diagnosis, as I have no credentials to say that. And yeah, I think that that was a really interesting finding and obviously one that attracted attention. really strong looking females that would maybe go against the disorder eating like symptomology would look like. And I think it's just, it might come down to education around eating behaviors. We don't really know as to why that finding was there. I think that's probably the next step with all this research. I got the numbers and the players involved,

which is a really awesome response rate by the players. But the next step would be to really understand what that actually means. I understand. I understand. How hopeful are you, Kelly, that this will catch on, that women will be fully supported in the game in the UK? Well, I'm 100% hopeful it will catch on. We need it. We need to make sure that everyone advocates for it.

I think there's a big piece. It's not cheap. And the women's game already struggles financially. So the idea of having sponsors and partnerships from mental health backgrounds, from psychology, from 360 Care, step in and support clubs, I think that would make a massive difference. And then clubs can focus on it because it's really difficult to run a women's club or a team on the finances that are provided at this moment i understand i see behind you equality fc.com i did mention at the

beginning that you both play pay your women and men players equally um Finances, as they're equal, do you think it then, you can see that when it comes to how much psychological support is then needed? Because money worries can be, as you mentioned at the beginning, an issue. Yeah, I think, you know, we have a saying here that,

that, you know, when we rise, we all rise together. So, you know, when we can use our finances across the club, when we can support the men and the women equally, everyone will rise together and we'll have the resources around us and the expertise around us. So I think the Equality FC concept and idea is really what clubs should be doing.

Whatever the performance is for both the men and the women, if we approach it professionally, we'll help everyone rise together. Well, thank you both so much for speaking to us. That is Kelly Lindsay, Performance Manager for Lewis FC and Carly Perry, PhD student from the University of Central Lancashire.

Great to have both of you on Woman's Hour. Now, I want to continue to celebrate the Queen's Platinum Jubilee. Tomorrow's show will be dedicated to Queens. We mentioned that a little bit earlier, who've made an impact. The next guest also has a special connection through her family history to Her Majesty the Queen.

The songwriter and pianist Kate Garner is the daughter of Chas Hodges, of Chas and Dave fame, of course. Good to have you with us, Kate. You're so welcome. Thank you for inviting me, Lola. We should probably describe where you're sitting, Kate, for our listeners. I'm sitting in front of a very beautiful Steinway Grand Piano.

And I think as we talk about the Jubilee, you are prepared to play also a little tribute to the Queen. Tell us a little tribute to the Queen. Tell us a little bit about the song Platinum Queen. Well, this song, it comes from a historical background in music. I was a child growing up in the 70s, so my memories of the Queen are very much from the 70s and the Silver Jubilee. And my dad, Chas Hodges, and Dave, they wrote a song for the Silver Jubilee for my dad Chas Hodges and Dave they wrote a song for the Silver Jubilee for my nana to perform and that stayed with me that song and that period of the Silver Jubilee

so I wanted to continue the tradition and write one for the Platinum Jubilee. I wanted it to be not just about the Queen, but for everyone. And it's also about family and the environment because of the Queen's green canopy, where we're all encouraged to plant a tree. I was really inspired by that. I thought that's a simple idea for a song too. And that's what the song is about,

is the planting of a tree. You know, we have a little clip because Daisy, you mentioned there, your nana, nana Daisy, that she recorded a special tribute for the Silver Jubilee back in 77. Let's listen to a little clip together. Let's get ourselves together in the cheer of our good Queen Silver Jubilee. Let's have a good old party like the old ones used to be. Let's decorate our houses and let's dress up all our kids The old red, white and blue So I can see you swaying along there with taking you back to Nanna Daisy,

who no doubt also this tradition has gone down through your family when it comes to music. But we do also want to hear you play, Kate. So do you want to take it away? I'd be delighted to. This song is called Platinum Queen. Beautiful. Well done. I feel I should at least do the clap for one, but I'm sure our listeners are as well. Have I heard correctly that the Queen did hear it played? She did. And I

did receive a letter from the Queen. Oh, it was wonderful, Nuala, because at the time I was away, I was doing a show in Los Angeles raising money for Ukraine. And my mum called me up and she said, you've had a letter from the palace. What shall I do? I said, open it. So she did and she opened it. And we were both really touched because my dad was mentioned in the letter and the Queen said that she was interested to know that my father was the late Chas Hodges from Chas and Dave and that she was touched that I was continuing the family tradition so it was really special. Well congratulations on that Kate and thank you so

much for sharing it with us have a wonderful wonderful Jubilee weekend. We begin and end the programme on music. I do want to read a tweet that came in. Somebody says, I hope you see this. I do. My mum and I are listening to your show today. Mum is very Welsh, but unfortunately lost her accent due to school ground bullying

when she moved to England as a child. And Bonnie, Bonnie Tyler, who has just received an honour, has just made her cry in MBE. Hearing her accent, especially the way she said beautiful. I love to see her so moved by heart, home, voice. Much love, Sarah and Mum Susie. That's all for today's Woman's Hour.

Join us again next time. I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year year I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who's faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story. Settle in. Available now.