Woman's Hour - Kate Hudson, Undercover policing, Sophie Blake, Women on the Left

Episode Date: December 19, 2025

Hollywood actor Kate Hudson’s latest movie Song Sung Blue is based on the real life story of Wisconsin couple Mike and Claire Sardina. Kate plays Claire, who along with her husband Mike, played by Hugh Jackman, finds local fame in the 1990s as a Neil Diamond tribute act. Kate tells Anita Rani about the appeal of the role and how she’s now found empowerment and her voice. Set up in 2015, the Undercover Policing Inquiry is one of the most complicated, expensive and delayed public inquiries in British legal history. At its heart is a series of very serious allegations of systematic abuses by undercover policing units over 40 years, which involved spying on tens of thousands of activists and led to relationships with women who did not know they were being spied on. The BBC's Ayshea Buksh has been following the inquiry closely and joins Anita to explain the latest revelations. Sophie Blake is a former TV presenter and now a campaigner for cancer charities. She is also a single mother living with stage 4 cancer. She joins Anita, along with her teenage daughter, Maya, to talk candidly about parenting through incurable cancer, what this means for their relationship and why time together, especially around the Christmas holidays, is that much more valuable.We hear a lot about young men moving to the Right politically, but at the last election young women swung just as strongly, if not more so, to the Left. Why is this so little discussed and what does it mean for the UK’s political future? Guardian columnist Gaby Hinsliff has been exploring these issues in a new Radio 4 documentary, Left Out: the political radicalisation of young women - and the silence surrounding it. She and Scarlett Maguire from political pollsters, Merlin Strategy, join Anita.Presenter: Anita Rani Producer: Corinna Jones

Hello, I'm Anita Rani and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Good morning, welcome to the programme. Hollywood is popping into the program in the form of actor Kate Hudson. She's telling us all about her new movie Song Sung Blue in which she stars alongside Hugh Jackman. Neil Diamond fans will recognise the title. It's based on a true story about a couple who form a Neil Diamond tribute band. I won't tell you too much other than it's a lovely film for the festive season. It's a story about love, it's about family, it's about good people, it's a tearjurker, it's all you need.

So this morning I want to hear about the movie you have to watch at this time of year. Do you have an annual Christmas film? Is there a ritual around it? And I don't just mean the usual suspects of elf or it's a wonderful life or die hard, all excellent. I'm talking about the alternative Christmas movie in your house. Who do you watch it with and why that film? This year I'm going to be watching, as I do every year, the dark Christmas. with my brother, because it's what we've been doing since we were children, the combination of

Jim Henson, the strange fantasy world of that film. It takes us back to the safety of my parents' living room, usually with me lying in front of the heater, sofa cushions under our heads, my mum's cooking, coming out of the kitchen. I mean, I'm there right now, can't wait. So let's hear about your alternative Christmas movies. Take me to the situation you'll be in, who you'll be with, or who you'll be thinking about. Share it in the usual way. The text number is 84844. I think we're officially getting festive now. The WhatsApp number, 0300-100-444.

You can email me by going to our website and, of course, followers on social media. It's at BBC Woman's Hour. Also on the programme, we'll hear an update on the long-running undercover police inquiry. Also, how do you single parent with a cancer diagnosis? Mother and daughter Sophie and Maya will be here to share their powerful story. and why young women are more likely to vote left than right compared to young men. All of that and, of course, your favourite Christmas movies. Alternative Christmas movies, 84844.

So Hollywood actor Kate Hudson has starred in the likes of Glee, Running Point and her Golden Globe-nominated film Music. While her latest film, Song Sung Blue, is based on the real-life story of Wisconsin couple Mike and Claire Sardina. Claire, along with her husband Mike, played by Hugh Jackman, find local fame in the 1990s as a Neil Diamond tribute band. Their lives are tinged with joy and tragedy. And I have to admit, I sobbed when I watched it.

When Kate came into the Woman's Hour studio, she told me more about the real life, Mike and Claire. They were both impersonators. They were both, like, worked in the sort of circuit of impersonators. And she was a Patsy Klein. My character, Claire, was a Patsy Klein impersonator. and he was multiple different artists. And they fell in love and started this Neil Diamond tribute band.

And it became a sensation. It was huge. Lightning and Thunder. Lightning and Thunder. Yeah. He was Lightning. And then when she came on board, he wanted her to be Thunder. And they were so committed to this band that they were creating that people just fell in

love with them. They fell in love with their commitment. They fell in love with their love for Neil Diamond and music. and Neil Diamond's music is obviously such a fun experience for people to have, and they just became a big sensation in Milwaukee. Why did you want to play the part of Claire? Why did you say yes to this? Oh, any actors would have been lucky to play this part.

I mean, Claire's life, all of this being true, which is almost unimaginable when you see the movie how wild their life is. Yeah, we can't give too many spoilers away, but a lot happens. Yeah, and it's just you almost, like, it's almost unbelievable. And yet it's all true. And so for me, to explore Claire's life was really wonderful as an actor. Did you speak to her? Did you meet her?

Yeah, yeah, I did. I got to get to know her and she's wonderful. The essence of Claire is in the movie in a big way. She just is all sunshine and she fights for sunshine. And she's, you know, in her struggles is really fights for joy. When you play a character like that, does it leave, what kind of impression does it leave with you? I mean, every character must leave you with something right. What's Claire left with you?

Yeah, I think gratitude for just today. I really, like that's Claire. You know, I think Claire in her life ended up realizing that, like, what is life if you're not living it right now? And that I really, not only relate to, but like it really left me with that being. Like, that is the only way to exist. Were you a Neil Diamond fan before the film? And are you now? I was a Neil Diamond enthusiast in the sense that, like, I loved Sweet Caroline.

And it was like, you know, any of any of these things that in karaoke, you know it. But I didn't know anything about Neil Diamond's catalogue. A great discovery. Oh, great discovery for me. The greatest thing about being an actor is the things you get to learn about. I got to delve into his catalog of music. It's prolific. I was shocked at the songs, how many amazing songs that he's written.

I got to sing some of them that I never had heard before, like Suleiman and, yeah. Beautiful. I'm the same. I had no idea of the catalogue and actually went in with a bit of trepidation. Will I like the music? Stunning. And actually the way the songs have been sung and the places they've been put in the film are just really genius. I've been here before.

I've never heard that song. the song I sing towards the end of the film. Yeah. So there's real chemistry and you're singing with Hugh Jackman. Beautiful harmonies, really tender moments. And I'm thinking of when you sing,

Play Me, really gorgeous. What was that like? What was that scene like to play? Play Me, we really did pretty live on set. And then sang a little bit in recording. I think they might have mixed it a little bit. But that's pretty live. And that's sort of their,

they fall in love through music. It's the scene where. Stunning. Where we realize that we are, you know, connected. And you have a beautiful voice, really beautiful. Not the first time you've acted in a musical. You acted in music, co-written and directed by Sia. Sia was a huge part of opening my throat chakra and giving me confidence as a singer.

And you've seen her face. What? And I've seen it. Oh, yes, I have. Your throat chakra. Come on tell me. How did you do that? Well, I just feel like it's been close.

It was so closed. I was so fearful of, like, sharing my voice and multiple ways, like, writing music. I've been writing music my whole life and just opening this part. I was always so timid and afraid to do it. And there's been a lot of people along the way who were really wanted me to get in the studio, wanted me to be singing more. I don't know what it was that was holding me back until I got a little bit older. And then working with Sia and her musicality, her writing,

And her songs, which are big, you know, you have to really be very confident singer to really get her songs right. And she just gave me so much confidence. She had so much belief in me. And I just, she really, like, unlocked it. Is it significant that it was a woman who did that? Yes, absolutely. Like, 100,000 percent for me, yes. I think people will be surprised to hear you say that you, there was something holding you back.

Because you can obviously sing. I bet there's people who've told you this your whole life. And you knew on some level yourself that you can sing. Well, and I had been singing. You know, I sang in nine. I sang in glee. And it's not like my voice, I wasn't able to access certain parts of my voice. It was like the whole embodiment of myself and the belief in myself as a singer, you know, is different.

And Sia really was the one who was like, this is who you are. So once you've felt the belief and you've fully embraced it. And, yeah, throat, chakras opened. Flew open. Yeah. I'm just thinking about women listening who will full well, me included, we all have our thing, know the thing that we want to release but something is holding us back. Give us some advice, Kate.

How do we? Well, I don't, it's so different for everybody. I think the thing is, is that it comes at the right time. I think, you know, I think the only advice I would give is to be patient with yourself. You know what I mean? It's like, I think sometimes we're. fighting so hard to make something happen, you know, and maybe sometimes you just need to be patient and be okay with it. You're not there yet, you know? And I have that with music. Some people go,

what took you so long? And I'm like, life. Like, this is exactly where I'm supposed to be and why I'm here now is because everything that I was afraid of and all of the people along the way that empowered me seea being one of the biggest ones help me be here and like open this up for me and I remember hearing a woman talk about not liking the word empowerment because it means that someone else has to give you show your power I thought that was a really interesting thing I thought about it a lot I love provocative statements I'm thinking about it now and and as I thought about it and I'm all down I'm down for everybody's point of view right but like I don't know where I would be without other women empowering me.

I needed it. Maybe some women don't, but I did. And in many ways, whether it be from my mother or from my girlfriends or from colleagues, sometimes you do need a little bit of that push. It doesn't mean your power doesn't exist. It means it just helps you find it, you know, and access it. I bet your words are doing that for someone right now.

Can I talk about another one of the great characters in this film, the hair. Oh. Oh my God. The fashion, the hair, the hair, the stonewash, high-wasted, 80s, the whole thing. It was when Johnny V., my hairdresser, put those hot rollers in every morning, I still felt like my, you know, myself. But the second those hot rollers came out, it was like she had arrived, you know, and Claire's hair is its own character completely.

It's a very beautiful film and ultimately it's about the hardworking every person and life and struggle and the ups and downs. Ultimately it's about love and even saying the sentence is like oh and I just thought about when I was watching it I thought what I wonder what gets Kate through her toughest times like when you've really hit those moments in life what's got you through them? I mean, there's the, it's always my support system. I mean, you know, it sounds cliche and ridiculous, but it really is. It's the people in my life.

It's my girlfriends. It's my mom. When you have kids, your kids, you know, you do everything to, you know, be there for your kids. You try to power through anything to show up for them. But sometimes, you know, it's funny. Even with your kids, like it takes a girlfriend or someone that really. like your support system for you to show up even sometimes for your kids in the right way. And that's what gets me through.

But honestly, and this is one of the big connections with me with this movie, music. Music is my medicine. Yeah. I don't know what I would do with that. Like music has saved my life over and over and over again. I think that line is in the film. Music is Claire's medicine as well. Yeah.

It's like I don't, when she says I get lost in the music. I mean, I lived in that my whole life, you know, it's like whether it's me doing something or whether it's even just for myself, my whole life, you know, like that's what I would do. I would go get lost and other people's music, you know, it's just the best, it's the best. You brought up your family. I have to talk about your mom and dad, Kurt Russell and Goldie Horn, because I do have like a list of my favorite Hollywood couples. your parents right at the top. Oh, they're the best.

Tell me more. My mom turned 80 this year. And so it's been an amazing celebration of mom this year because... How is Goldie Horn 80? How is she 80? That's incredible. That's exactly what she said to me. It's crazy.

It's a big number. I can't believe it. And she's just this, you know, she's just amazing. I mean, she's so active and great. She's doing so great. She's so beautiful. And, you know, I'm so, I'm so. feel very lucky. Their love story is unbelievable. And also very, very connected to this movie. You know,

I had Kurt. He took us on as kids when we were very young and raised us. And, you know, there's a moment in this movie where she calls Hugh Jackman's character Mike Papa. And when I was a kid, Kurt was in our life so much that we didn't want to call him Kurt. It felt weird. And so we decided to go through this process to figure out what we were going to call him and it's pa. So we, Kurt's always been pa to everybody. But that was, you know, a man who can take on someone else's kids and do it and raise them like their own is one of the most like beautiful things to be able to have. So he's, he's one of my heroes. And my mom and them, you know, they've been through it all. They've been through everything. And they choose each other almost everything.

day. And that's it. Almost every day. That's what we can ask for. 40 plus years later, it's working for them for sure. We will be for our Christmas special talking about Christmas rituals. Do you have, are you a Christmassy person? Big. I love Christmas. It's my favorite. I love it so much. My Christmas decorations are already up. Since when? How long? I'm in a name drop. I'm trying to think of who. I think it was Gwyneth Paltrow. Gwyneth, my one of my really, really close, beautiful friends who's the best and everything she does is perfect, was like, no, you can't put your Christmas decorations up so early. And I was like, I have to.

Give me a date. Like, after Halloween, like November 1st. I mean, I want them up immediately. I'd have them up half the year. If it was up to me, I'd be like, I just want, it makes me so happy, you know, I feel like I want to live in Santa's Village, you know. I want to be cooking all day long and I want all my, I might. House looks insane.

Who's going to be there, Christmas Day? Is it a big family? It's the whole family. We are a big family. There's four kids between my mom and my dad. And then between all of us, there's eight. Matching pajamas? Matching pajamas.

There's a thousand million dogs. We bring them all to the ranch. It's kind of insane. The truth is it's definitely not relaxing. But it is filled with fun and chaos and memories. And it's the best. And joy. And joy.

And love. And love. Yeah. And fights. And fights. Which brings joy. Ultimately, that's what it's all about. Eventually, it gets to the joy part.

But yeah, we, it's the best. And I think we have so many traditions. We always do a tree trimming party. We make mauled wine. We have a sit down, always have a sit down Christmas Eve dinner. It's going to be great. And on a personal note, as someone who is at this point in your career, you've done this incredible film, you are brilliant in it.

You've got, you had an album come out last year. How are you? How are you feeling in yourself? Like where in life are you? I'm so grateful. I look at, I'm like, you know, creatively I feel so fulfilled right now. It's such a wonderful feeling. And I have a very peaceful life with a wonderful partner.

And I'm just so happy. It's, you know, it's busy and it's chaotic. and you know not every day is like a blissful day but it's just creatively I'm like it's like a

I feel like what's the word I'm like for it's like pop rocks like it's kinetic it feels like energetically just like popping you know I'm writing a lot I just feel so happy Kate Hudson there

and song Sung Blue is out in cinemas on New Year's Day and the first that's the first of January perfect festive film anyone else really want to go for Christmas at Kate's. I've just written down, watch all of Kurt Russell and Goldiehorn back catalogue

to my alternative Christmas films. Yours are coming through. Michelle says when my sister and I were children, Jason and the Argonauts was often shown on Christmas Day afternoon. Yes, you've taken us right back. However, we always had to go to my grandmas for Christmas tea, which meant that we missed most of it.

I spent years trying to see all of the film in one go. However, my sister bought it for me on DVD a few years ago, and so now I watch it, uninterrupted, all the way through, all the satisfaction. 844 is the text number. Now, set up in 2015, the undercover policing inquiry is one of the most complicated, expensive and delayed public inquiries in British legal history. At its heart is a series of very serious allegations of systematic abuses by undercover policing units over 40 years, which involved spying on tens of thousands of activists and led to relationships with women who did not know they were being spied on.

This week, one of the officers involved has given a statement for the first time. Mark Jenner, whose cover name was Mark Cassidy, admitted he had a relationship with a woman who was unaware he was a police officer and that he was married with children at the time. He says he acted callously and cruelly and that his superiors knew of his relationship. Dozens more women are thought to have been affected by the behaviour of undercover police. The BBC's Aisha Buksh has been following the inquiry closely and joins us to explain the significance as well as the latest revelations.

Aisha, morning, welcome. Good morning. So let's understand this fully. The undercover policing inquiry has been hearing evidence since 2020. So explain what is this inquiry? Well, the undercover police and inquiry, as you say, has been going on for some time now. and it's examining the behaviour and actions of the special demonstration squad. That was a covert unit within the Met Police,

and it had been established in 1968, and it carried on for decades. People over the last 10 years have found out that they were spied on. It became known as the spy copse scandal, and many of them belonged to predominantly left-wing organisation, social justice, environmental protest groups, And this latest phase of the inquiry has been looking at some of them. They also spied on people who were in dispute with the Met, such as the families of murdered black teenager Stephen Lawrence

and Ricky Real, who was an Asian student who died following a racist attack in Kingston. They also infiltrated a local campaign group in East London in Hackney called the Collin Roach Centre. That was named after a young black man who did. died at a local police station. And that's where Alison, who's called herself that name, she doesn't want to be known, has a real name, met a man called Mark Cassidy. She was told he was a working class, single guy from Birkenhead, and he wanted to get involved in the group and learn more about politics and campaigning. She was a school teacher. She occasionally went to meetings. She was a middle class, Jewish.

young woman, they fell in love. He moved in with her. She never met his family. She was told by him that he was estranged from his mother. She never met his friends. But she enjoyed her life with him. She told me in an interview that they had radical politics, but it was very domestic life.

They went on holidays together. He attended family events with her, Christmas, Passover, she had no idea that he was an undercover police officer. And when she found out, she was much older, she was utterly shocked. She wanted to have children. He said he didn't want to. They went even into relationship counselling for over a year. And it was only when she discovered who he was later on that she also realized there were other women who had been affected by this.

she was not alone at all in what she'd experienced. So, so many questions, Isha. When did she find out? How did she, when and how did she find out? And then let's hear about some of the other women as well in their cases and situations. So when he first left, she had been, you know, very much enjoying a very solid relationship, she thought. So it felt like a complete shock, something really out of the blue. He said he wanted to get his head together. She did a bit of her own detective work.

She found him on Facebook. She hired a private detective and she discovered who he really was. There are, as you say, were other women who are also dealing with this. One of the famous cases was Kate Wilson. She had been in a relationship with an undercover officer through her role in environmental politics. And she won her case against him in the courts because it was deemed that their relationship

was a violation of her human rights. There was also another man called Bob Lambert, who we may have heard of over the last few years. He was actually the boss of Mark, Mark Jenner, as we now know him. He had a relationship with four women a decade earlier. He had also fathered a son with one of the women. So this was, yeah, this is certainly not an isolated case.

So what stage of the inquiry have we reached now? Well, we are still deep in the inquiry. It will resume in the new year. But they are gathering as much evidence from as many people as possible, both officers and victims and survivors. Some of the delays have happened, though, because not all the officers want to appear.

Obviously anonymity and protecting their cover is still for some of them an issue. As you said, Mark Jenner appeared this week. He was speaking in public for the first time. And he told the inquiry, this was difficult for him. He said, look, I'm a human. I felt bad for what I was doing, but I was undercover. He stayed long with Alison,

stayed a long time because he needed the cover. It helped him maintain his credibility and it was convenient. He enjoyed the food, the sex and the shelter that she was able to offer him. And he was protected by his manager. He knew. The colleagues knew. It was an open secret. So, you know, it was very interesting to be in the room and to hear that evidence being read out because Allison was there.

I sat next to her at various occasions and there were other women as well. they all support each other now. I mean, you could feel the collective trauma in the room, but they help each other out. Alison's got a website, for example, called Police Spies Out of Lives. And it's a sort of support group where women tell their own experiences in their own words

about what they went through. And you were there with them, and you've spoken to a number of them. What's been the impact on to the women? I think the impact has been huge. You know, this happened some time ago, but it threw, through them so much.

I think it rattled them to the core, really, in words of one person. Because you trust someone, don't you? When you get into relationship, there is a deep trust. And on so many levels, and intimacy, emotionally, so to be told that all of this was a lie. And then, of course, the other layer, that they were politically active. They had convictions. They wanted to do things to change the world and make it a better place. And then to feel that those people were, you know, trying to find dirt on them,

trying to infiltrate them. And undercover policing is a valid tactic. It's regarded, you know, as an important tool in the arsenal of any police force to find criminal activity. But a lot of these groups were not necessarily engaging in criminal activity. You know, the Croydon group for left-wing other things. So, you know, I'm just, what I'm trying to say is that some of these, you know, people don't feel that what was done was legitimate and the way that their bodies were exploited and it was allowed to happen. I think that's the big crucial thing here as well, is that this went higher up the chain and that these women were allowed to be abused and deceived for them is, yeah, still triggering and traumatising today. I'm sure.

What's been the response from the Met Police? Well, the Met have given us a statement and they have said that they apologise unreservedly for the significant harm and distressed calls to the women. They say that these sexual relationships were abusive, deceitful and manipulative and they acknowledged the wrongdoing and the totally unacceptable behaviour by some officers and by some managers. They have tried to distance themselves, though, from that past behaviour saying that the actions have left the legacy of hurt and undermined confidence in a vital. police in tactic that continues to keep people safe. But for the women, of course, they want to see this inquiry really have some teeth and make strong recommendations.

They want to see changes to the law governing undercover operations to protect women and members of the public from potential abuse of a treatment by police officers. Yeah, and the inquiry's been running for a long time and many of the officers have left the force. So what is expected to happen when it concludes?

Will it just be a matter of lessons learned or do you think action will be taken? Well, inquiries have always hoped to be about, yes, lessons learned and to prevent future problems, you know, to prevent this not happening again. Recommendations will extend to covert policing, intelligence gathering. I mean, the women also want to ensure that the commendations and awards are taken off some of these officers as well. So, yes, the inquiry to them is really important.

it allows people to finally be, you know, examined in public and for them to have their time as well. And they want to see it continue and continue to talk to the public about the potential issues that they have been dealing with and for these men who were part of the SDS squad to be made accountable. Aisha, thank you very much. Isha, books there. 84844 is our text number.

Now, if you haven't caught Nula in our new podcast, then give yourself over to BBC Sounds and search for Send in the Spotlight. It's where the system for supporting children with special educational needs and disabilities examined and reimagined. This week's episode is an expert guide to getting an EHCP, Education, Health and Care Plan. And on Monday, the new episode will be all about

the joy and challenges of Christmas with a child who has send. All with a little help from actors and parents, Kelly Bright and Anna Maxwell Martin. So all you need to do to hear that is subscribe to send it in the spotlight. It's on BBC sounds. I'm going to read out a couple of your film choices, alternative film choices over Christmas. Lucy in Oxford says here's a weird Christmas film. In Bruges, it's actually brilliant, isn't it? Funny, violent, moving.

We're hosting Christmas one year. And when the conversation came round to favourite films, we discovered Mum had never seen mine. So now we watch In Bruges every Christmas. and another one here from Ruby who says I love watching Pride and Prejudice at Christmas it radiates warmth and family and reminds me of my own big family

sitting around the telly shouting over each other just like the Bennets well then Ruby you'll be very interested to hear our programme on Tuesday the 16th this week find it on BBC sounds because at the BBC here we've been celebrating Jane Austen so you'll find our episode dedicated to her

from the 16th of this month It's there on BBC Sounds. Now, Sophie Blake is a former TV presenter and now a campaigner for cancer charities. She's also a single mum living with stage four cancer. She joins me now in the studio, along with her teenage daughter, Maya, to talk about their experiences of parenting

through an incurable diagnosis, how her illness has shaped their relationship and how they're living life to the fullest together and creating memories, especially around Christmas, as it is so much more valuable. Maya and Sophie, welcome to Woman's Hour. Thank you very much for having us. This is another memory coming here to talk to us.

Absolutely. How are you both? Really good. Looking forward to Christmas. We should hear your whole story because there's a lot to talk about. Can we go back to 2020, Sophie? When you first noticed symptoms in lockdown, what happened? What was the diagnosis?

So yeah, it's just over five years. years ago now, which seems mad when my anniversary came up for it, 7th of December, when I was given the news that I had primary breast cancer, didn't know primary at the time, but just knew that I had breast cancer. And we were going into the third lockdown. So it was a really kind of nerve-wracking, anxious time because, you know, everything was closing, wasn't it? Hospitals, again, were going to COVID patients. They couldn't get me a hospital bed. So kind of long story short, my mum was just frantically phoning up. up hospitals everywhere and managed to get me an appointment with a private hospital a month later

and had my lumpectomy and we kind of we had to go through the whole COVID delays for everything and Maya had to isolate with me for even longer. How old were you at the time Maya? I was 13. You were 13. Yeah. So really difficult just when life looked like it was going to start getting back on track after the first and second lockdown. And then you had a shock news, the shocking news that your cancer had spread. Yeah. So. So a year later, I had radiotherapy and then told to go live my life. And then I knew something was really wrong. I was just feeling so ill, really tired, lost loads of weight.

My skin kind of went really translucent, terrible fatigue, loads of chest pain. I had so many red flags, basically, for secondary breast cancer, which were really ignored for a long time, unfortunately. And then a year later, PET scan did confirm that it had spread to my liver, abdominal lymph node, my pelvis, my lungs. And I also, it was then growing on my actual skin. where I'd had my lumpectomy a new grade two breast cancer. So I had the two diagnoses for that in one go.

And that was May 22. How did you deal with that news? Well, I wasn't expecting it because I kept getting told I didn't have it. You know, they kept saying to me that there was nothing wrong with me. I was just dealing with side effects from a hormone blocker called Tam, which many people with hormone positive breast cancers get put on. And I was just constantly told it was just side effects from that. So it was just, I was painting my front door.

have my paintbrush in my hand and I got a phone call and it was just the last news I ever expected to hear and how do you then approach that conversation with Maya it was heartbreaking first of all I spoke to my mum yeah which was the most horrific call I think I've ever had to make and then we decided to wait over the weekend to process the news do some research then actually have a face-to-face with the oncologist and then sit down and tell Maya and that was having told her primary and then that was okay we just celebrated two days beforehand your 15th birthday hadn't we how was that conversation Maya how open was your mom she was really open she never hides anything from me which I'm really grateful for it takes a lot of anxiety away from me

with that because otherwise I would just be doing all my own research if I didn't know and were you doing that were you looking things at I was at first but then it helped that you told me what exactly was going on with you then all the stuff I was Googling I was like okay so she doesn't have this it's alright she's fine but obviously when you Google like stage four cancer it just comes up with the worst but you being really open did really help take away a lot of the fear that I had about it how did you approach it Well, I decided I was going to ignore all the stats because I discovered very quickly that they were really outdated anyway, unfortunately, which is a real issue that's being worked on by a lot of charities. So I just thought, right, I'm not going to listen to the stats that are out there.

I'm going to, I've been put on a really good drug. One of the newer ones has been around, I think, like 10ish years, eight years with trials and then being available to people. I joined lots of support groups online I found charities that support people with secondary breast cancers metatatic breast cancer and they were absolutely incredible for giving advice and putting you in the right direction meeting communities of other women who were dealing with it all and it meant as well being able to have these conversations with Maya

I just felt so much more informed with information that I could give to her and because of her looking at Google and I know how terrifying that is I needed her to know that she could talk to me and ask me questions however difficult they were that we could prepare for everything and that even included right at the start for her to have peace of mind, redoing a will so that Maya, if I died before she was 18

we wanted to have everything put in place for her fears and concerns. How do you have a conversation like that with your teenage daughter? How do you confront the reality or what might be? happening here about death i i did it in a very kind of like you know this this is worst case scenario this is say and this should and everyone should be prepared regardless i think you know

because none of us know if anything could ever happen to us in life yeah but it was very much then for mya's peace of mind to be able to go okay so because it's just the two of us who would i live with what was it like for you maya go and tell me about the conversation i mean it was scary because it's not something I expected to have to speak about with you for decades really but I mean it was good to have the conversation and the way you spoke about it you're always like right this isn't happening but it's a maybe like I'm going to be here until you're a hundred and something you're going to be annoyed and wanting to get rid of me by then so you always kept it very lighthearted so it wasn't like these really depressing sad conversations are really heavy i think you've

we were trying to keep it light and we joke about a lot of it because i think that's the way you kind of get through that stuff has it affected your outlook on life it really has affected a lot of things i'd kind of put off or thought oh i can do this when i'm older or i'll travel here I'll like try this then it kind of when you got that it's like okay you don't always know how long you've got if you want to do something like do it now and I always try and just be grateful for everything I have and there are so many people that would be grateful to be in my position like even just simple things as knowing you've definitely got the next day coming for you it's just stuff like that. So planning life, what have you been up to the two of you? We've had more

adventures, I think, in the last couple of years than we'd had up until you were 15, haven't we? We've just really kind of, even we've had lots of mini adventures, friends and family have got on board with us, we've done lots of spontaneous trips, but it's even just things like we find, Maya loves cooking and finding new recipes and we do it together and then we make a movie night out of it. It doesn't have to be extravagant holidays. Yeah. What do you like to? Are you doing Christmas? I'm not cooking Christmas. You're not cooking Christmas. I'm doing a little bit. I'm going to do, I'm going to bring cake and something.

All right. Fair enough. Grandma's in charge of Christmas. All right. I don't mess with Grandma at Christmas. All right. That's her. That's her. What other things have you been doing? We started, we do more theatre. Go to that. We like that. We both love the theatre. Do some more picnics, go on walks. if there's something close by that we've been like, oh, we can go here and other times. Living life to the fullest.

Go now. Yeah. We do. We just have fun. And you're using a digital legacy service. Tell me about this. This was amazing because I'm really organized and proactive in many ways, but I'm really not technical. And one of the things I really wanted to do,

but I have been putting off because this would have been the hardest part. for me is writing letters for the future. And I haven't got myself to sit down and actually do those yet because I keep thinking, no, it's almost like I need to wait until that last moment. Right now I'm doing really one of my treatments, so I'm not doing it. So I met somebody who told me about this incredible online digital legacy place that's new to set up, leaving memories, videos, photos. And we've been doing it together and it's been really good because it's got a globe of the world

you can put our holidays on there and photos of it I can leave and record emails and messages for the future and getting all your old gossip stories from when you were my age so she's part of it

and asking me are you getting all the good gossip I've got a lot of Is it no holds barred between mother and daughter now what have you heard oh no you don't have to ship go on tell them

Grandma might be listening Grandma sounds like a force oh she is she will be listening She'll be in on the gossip at Christmas So I'll be sharing it I mean that sounds really beautiful But also very difficult You know to be writing about things that you want to leave

And messages you want to leave for The messages, that's the hardest part The leaving our memories of like childhood memories Teenage memories, Travelled, Adventures That's the fun part Because we've been sharing stories And remembering really lovely things You know first music concert

Just things like that have been really enjoyable, haven't they? But the private bits when I'm alone to leave letters for the future and videos, that's really tough because it's kind of, I mean, in many ways, obviously, none of us know when our time is up. I know that, but obviously when you get given a stage four cancer diagnosis, then you know that your time is limited to how your drugs work for you. so it also makes me feel good that I am preparing. I imagine it makes you distill in your life

and really focus on what's important. It sounds like a complete cliche, but it does, it is that kind of moment. As soon as you get this diagnosis and you start your treatments and when you know that your life has been shortened and the time you have left and the adventures and the plans and everything from your future is, you know, potentially not going to happen.

It does make you suddenly as well really appreciate everything that you do have in life. It makes you realize that all those small things that you've been sweating, really you should not be wasting your time and focus on that actually we live much more in the moment. It's doing things like, I love a sunset, drag my down with me to the beach to watch the sunsets.

And I can just be in that moment and just look at the beauty of a sunset and be like, I'm in awe of it. You know, listening to birds singing, that when we just travel and see other places in the world and the cultures and try new food everything becomes more heightened

you really appreciate the beauty in life and what there is and another way it's really sad because it takes something like that for you to really realise that life is quite incredible how's your health

how are you I'm doing incredibly well on my first line within nine months I became any AD which is no evidence of active disease and I have been now I just had my latest scan results last week so we can go into it

yeah huge smile across the face yeah she always says she knows do you yeah it is it is like it might sound a bit cringy but I do I just

like I can always tell when something is bad like I'll have it it will feel really heavy on the day you get the scan it's like it's not there so you'll call me

you'll be like I'm any AD and I'm like I know And then last week she went And can you go get me a turkey best, please, for dinner? Fair enough. Keep asking for whatever you want. Thank you both for coming in and sharing your story.

And I want to wish you all the best. Thank you very much. New Year for the festive period. Thank you. Oh yeah, what is your alternative Christmas film? Do you have one? We love actually. Yeah, but that's not an alternative Christmas film, is it?

Alternative. Well, we still have the argument about die hard. Oh, it's the best. What's the argument? Christmas film, non-Christmas film. I'm not a die-hard fan. Oh, okay, it's all right. We're allowed to...

Maybe you can convince her this year. It can be your alternative one. I'm trying. Thank you so much, Maya and Sophie. And I have to say, if you've been affected by anything, we've been discussing, you can find links to advice and support on the BBC Actionline website. I'm going to read out a couple more of your alternative movies.

Charlie from Somerset says, My Alternative Christmas film is the Guns of Navarone. It's just a great... film and my dad was like David Niven. I love that. 84844 is the text number. There's lots of them coming through. So I'll read some more out before the end of the programme. Now, we hear a lot about young men moving to the right politically, but at the last election, young women swung just as strongly, if not more so, to the left. What does this mean for the UK's political future? Well, Guardian columnist Gabby Hinsliff has been exploring these issues in a new Radio 4 document.

It's called Left Out, the political radicalisation of young women and the silence surrounding it. And she's joining me to tell us what she's learned and talk to us all about it, along with Scarlett McGuire from Merlin Strategy, a company running political polling and focus groups. Scarlett and Gabby, welcome. Gabby, almost a quarter of women, aged 18 to 24, voted green last July, roughly double the number of young men who voted for reform. Why was this something you wanted to explore? it's funny it started with a conversation I was having with a political scientist about young men voting reform which I've been asked to write about and she said you know everyone always asks me about that and no one ever asks me about the women what they're doing because actually you know that in that age group young women had this had this big shift as well and no one's talking about that and I thought okay you know file that one away for later and went away and started chewing it over and talking it over with friends who had you know sort of daughters that age group and realized that actually no one was talking about it and I didn't really know why it was happening and it was therefore worth poking around in a bit more. And we're going to do just that now. Why, is this a new phenomenon, Scarlett? It's relatively new. We've seen over the last decade that these trends have reversed any

gender gap that existed before. So historically, women have actually been more likely to vote conservative. We started seeing that reversed in 2015 and 2017 with the gender gap. And that was driven primarily with younger voters. It was particularly pronounced, I think, with the Green Party at this election, as you're right to say, you know, quarter of them. And not only, I think this is where I get sort of slightly irritated. It's too strong a word. But I'm bemused as to why people aren't talking about it because everyone enjoys talking about the radicalisation of young men and how they vote reform. Young men are still less likely than the population as a whole to vote reform. They were less likely at the last general

election. They're still less likely now. And they're less likely than older men to vote reform. Green, sorry, young women are much more likely to vote green than the population as a whole or older women. And so I don't know why it's not got any attention, but we did start seeing this before in previous elections. However, in previous elections, so for example, if you take 2019, it was channeled into a vote for Corbyn. So a vote for Corbyn's Labour, rather than the Green Party that we're seeing now. Where did most of these female Green voters come from? Who had they voted for? Well, from Corbyn, they've shifted. Can we do more about this demographic? So most of them have shifted from Labour. Some of them will be voting for the first time when we poll 18 to 24 year olds now.

Some of them won't have been voting in previous elections. But we do. it does look like these trends are starting to exacerbate. And we're not alone. We saw this in recent German elections. We've seen this in recent New York mayoral election as well. And so it's not just happening in England. It's widespread over the world. And I think there are interesting dynamics to it. So it's being driven by young women, primarily university educated young women. And now we know 57% of people in higher education are women. So that's going to have more and more of an impact. And also there's another interesting dimension to this. single women are more likely to be voting for left-wing parties than those are families. Gabby, why the shift? What's happening? Well, that's what we wanted to find out with this documentary. And we wanted to talk to young women about what we wanted to dig a bit deeper into what's actually on their minds, what's energising them, what's angering them in a lot of cases, actually. And I think I went off expecting maybe to hear quite a lot about economic stuff. You know, we know that at the moment it's very hard for young people to get on the housing ladder.

You know, it's a difficult year for graduate employment. So I expected to hear a bit about that, and we did. But what I wasn't expecting to hear so much about in a political context was two things. The first was their experiences, just their everyday experiences of sexual harassment and misogyny. It's something we took back all the time on this programme. But, you know, that was really very uppermost in their minds. We heard some heartbreaking stories. And the other thing was immigration, that they'd felt very alienated by the tone of sort of political conversation around immigration.

And a lot of them had been very spooked by the protest, street protests this summer outside asylum hostels or sort of, you know, they'd seen flags going up on their street and interpreted that as a sign of a sort of gesture of hostility towards immigrants and people of colour. So there was a sense that the world was becoming threatening to them, that they felt a backlash, really. Let's hear a clip. I think it's intimidating and scary the way that the divide is at the moment. There's a lot of misogyny. There's a lot of violence against women, and it seems to be regressing, in my opinion. Personally, my first experience with sexual harassment, I was 11. I feel like recently it's been happening when I'm walking to the library, when I'm walking to school,

in the middle of the day, makeup, no makeup, baggy clothes, not baggy clothes. I'm catching myself checking who's cycling behind me when I'm cycling home at 3pm. Again, as you said, like the topics we talk about here all the time. How much might fear inform their choices? I think it's definitely, there's definitely a sense that I said the world is threatening that there is a pushback against their rights, their freedoms, their selves in a lot of ways. You know, this is that they were very aware, for example, of, you know, the debate in the US

about abortion rights and the ways in which abortion rights have been restricted in the US and they were frightened of something like that happening here, you know, a sense that they were being pushed backwards and that was reinforced by what they felt and saw around them. And they were looking, I think, for politicians who were prepared to defend them from that. who were prepared to kind of push back. And that was edging them in a more, it was edging them to the left. It was edging them in a more liberal direction.

Scarlett, we talk a lot on this program about, so the role that social media has to play in sort of radicalisation of young men. What's happening with young women? I do definitely think social media has a role to play. And our part of that is because people will feel more open and comfortable talking about things like sexual harassment, which, you know, is a positive thing.

But I think also when you start, getting into people then perceiving it to be, and I think it is more of a threat than it used to be, but I think that can also play very sort of negatively into, again, how scared people feel. And then also, I think if you look at when I've been doing focus groups of young women, they are seeing an awful lot on their social major of things like Gaza. And Gaza's not an issue we've talked about yet. And I'm sure Gabby came across this in, but it was the issue of Gaza and especially sort of the government's handling of it was seen to be sort of moral failure of those on the other side

and something that they felt incredibly upset by that they thought showed labour and people who were potentially not condemning in their eyes the actions of Israel enough to be hostile to them and to their values and so I think even lots of clips of things like the conflict in the Middle East also has a role to play. Gabby?

I think that's true. I mean I think their social media brings home to them more than it did to me when I was 17, 18. You know, the whole of the world is in your pocket, isn't it? Everything, you know, they was very aware of the situation in the US. They were very aware of the situation in Gaza. They were very aware of injustices around the world and felt, you know, that they should be doing something about those and wanted to see politicians doing something about those.

But I think there's also something else, which is the function of algorithms in dictating what you see. You know, you see, we all know that our social media feeds kind of tend to give us what we like, what we already like and already spend time on. And I think if young women and young women, are both getting all of their political news pretty much now from social media. They are living in separate algorithmic worlds in a way that wasn't true when we were, you know, all getting our news from the BBC, say, or whatever.

You know, they are, if it hasn't happened on their feed, it really hasn't happened. And so they're very aware of politicians who are good at social media. So, you know, the politicians, they followed on social media, Zach Polanski, the Greenleader, Zara Sultanah from your party. You know, they weren't, whereas the Labour Party's game, I think, you know, Kirstarmer has recently made his debut on TikTok but I think the Labour Party's game on social media has not been so strong

and they're just not aware of what I'm doing to get another clipping because this is really interesting so you know it's men and women inhabit very different worlds online as we're talking about and one of the issues that comes up is climate change let's have a listen to this with Greta Thumbach I remember being in New 7 and she was talking about climate change

and all the boys in the classroom were sat there ridiculing it and the women on the other side of writing poems about how we believed in climate change Scarlet, there's a kind of antagonism present there, isn't there? What extent are young women reacting against that? Just kind of will get into that clip from Gabby as well. Yeah, and I think it builds on what Gabby was just saying. So it's not only that young men and young women are living very separate lives online

as they are increasingly living online. And I think what that clip spoke to is this idea that they are actually in person talking to each other less, getting on with each other worse, less likely to go out with each other. You know, sort of these things that, you know, even when I was growing up, I'm not that old, but when I was growing up, the world and the sort of social interactions between the sexes look very different to it as now. And I think what you can see and what we've seen again throughout the world is that actually even with Generation Z, there's a divide between those whose school education was significantly disrupted by COVID. So that younger end of Gen Z. And on both directions, men and women, right wing left, they're much more likely to be much more radical and also much more online than I don't think that's a coincidence. This is so fascinating. Gabby, one of your contributors says she doesn't think traditional politics has taken young women's concerns seriously.

How much might this be, you know, kind of voting be a backlash towards that? I think that's definitely a big part of it. And actually, that was came through in the, in the Greta Thunberg clip that you just played as well, the sense that girls felt they were taking the world more seriously than boys were. And that, you know, that was either the boys weren't taking politics seriously enough. But they also felt that their concerns were not being taken seriously. enough by politicians. They did not hear politicians talking often enough about the things that really bothered and upset them. And they also wanted to see, this is where the radicalism comes

into some extent. They wanted to see bigger, bolder, faster changes. They were very impatient to see things done. Why aren't we talking about this? Why is it the young men's voting habits get all the attention? I think it's partly to be fair because young men being suddenly right wing felt more counterintuitive and surprising. It was like, oh, God, you know, where did that come from and it was tied up with concerns about, you know, what they might be consuming online or about the rising far-right votes in Europe. But I think there's also, I have to say, I think there's also something of the age-old problem, which is women's politics being considered as a kind of bolt-on, optional, you know, the median voter is a man and women are like, oh yes, what are

the ladies thinking? You know, that becomes a secondary consideration. I think there's something about that too. And very quickly, Scarlett, what are the broader implications of this? I think it will just get worse. I think the broader implications. are the further and further apart women and men get, the less they have in common. I have anecdotally, I have friends. I've also seen it in focus groups. Women refuse to go on dates with men that, you know, don't show their political opinions. It's less pronounced, actually, I have to say, going in the opposite direction.

But again, if a driver of this is women and men talking to each other less, having less in common, I only see that getting worse. And I actually think that takes us to potentially quite a nasty place. Gosh, fascinating. We'll have to pick this up again in the new year. Thank you for now. But if you do want to know more, there is a Gabby's documentary. It's called Left Out, the political radicalisation of young women and the silence surrounding it.

It's on Radio 4 on Sunday at 1.30 and it's also going to be available on BBC sounds. But for now, Gabby Hinscliffe and Scarlett-McGuay. Thank you both very much. Someone's been in touch to say how much she enjoyed listening to Kate and Maya navigating cancer and saying that her mother had a diagnosis in the 80s and she thinks it's always good to give advice and be honest with your children. Thank you all for your brilliant film recommendations, brief encounter, blues brothers. They're all on the list.

Don't join me tomorrow for Weekend Woman's Hour. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. I'm Philippe Sands, and from BBC Radio 4 and the history podcast, this is The Arrest. A race against time to apprehend a seemingly untouchable man. He had filed a flight plan to leave at 6.30 in the morning. A former dictator accused of crimes against humanity. And I found louder there, and she says, they killed death.

We cannot go in history, having been those who abandoned the Spanish victims. And there is General Pinochet sitting in his bed and distract pajamas. I thought, oh my God, it really is him. The arrest. Listen first on BBC Sounds.