Woman's Hour - Kate Humble, Impact of International Aid Cuts, Moving House, My Life in Shoes

Episode Date: November 20, 2020

Number 23 on this year’s Woman’s Hour Power List is Kate Humble – whose TV career spans 30 years and includes all sorts of programmes covering nature, wildlife and farming. But how important is TV in helping people actually care about the planet? Jane talks to Kate about the best way to connect people with nature, the importance of inspiring the next generation, and the problem she has with the word ‘environment’.Justine Greening was for Secretary of State for International Development for nearly four years under David Cameron, and Minister for Women and Equalities for Theresa May. She joins Jane to give her response to the suggested cuts to International Aid that are expected to be announced next Wednesday. What impact could that decision have on projects supporting some of the most vulnerable groups around the world – women and children?How many houses have you lived in? Does the idea of moving get you all excited, or does it bring you out in hives? Jane Christmas has written a book about the 32 house moves she’s made in 66 years. She joins Jane to discuss this, along with Linda Hill who’s moved just once in 37 years of marriage and has been in her present home for almost 34 years, and Carol who moved 16 times in 25 years, as her husband was in the military.My Life In Shoes. Listener Christina can trace her love of red shoes back to her childhood when she wasn’t allowed the unsuitable crimson shoes she desired. She’s been searching ever since.Presented by Jane Garvey Producer: Louise Corley Editor: Beverley Purcell

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hi, this is Jane Garvey and this is the Woman's Hour podcast from Friday the 20th of November 2020. Hi, hello, good morning. Today we're talking about moving house. You'll hear from the woman who's done it over 30 times, from a listener who quite frankly never wants to do it again and from a woman who's had to do it because her husband was in the military. She, I think, has done it 16 times. Moving House, not easy. Some people love it. Others, really not keen at all. Let us know what you think

at BBC Women's Hour on social media, or you can email us via our website. I hope you heard our Power List reveal programme on Monday. If you didn't, you can go to BBC Sounds, of course, and hear that programme. We showcased, well, we started to showcase, 30 brilliant women who've made that list, all contributing to a better environment because the subject of the Women's Hour Power List for this year is our planet.

Kate Humble is on the list, great communicator. You can hear from her on this morning's edition of the programme. First, though, will spending on international aid be cut? And if that does happen, and the idea is certainly out there at the moment, how will it affect the world's most vulnerable women and girls? We know the Chancellor is announcing his spending review next week. You'll have heard the news bulletin at 10 o'clock. The government borrowed, what was it, £22 billion in October. We are up against it, as of course is the rest of the world at the moment.

Let's have a chat with Justine Greening, who was Secretary of State for International Development for nearly four years under David Cameron. She was Minister for Women and Equalities for the then Prime Minister Theresa May and she now runs an initiative called the Social Mobility Pledge which Justine is about what? About levelling up? It is. It's about encouraging companies to think much more strategically about how they can spread opportunity to communities and to people who may not otherwise have it. How they can think outside the box to get people who may not otherwise have it,

how they can think outside the box to get to that much wider talent pool that's out there in our country that I think doesn't get used enough. Right. So it's not too far away from your previous, your range of responsibilities in Conservative administration. So tell us then about international aid. We should say, of course, we don't know it's going to be cut, but it's certainly something that's out there in the ether at the moment, the possibility. That's right. We've seen reports that we may well have a reduction in aid spending in order to fund an uplift in defence. I think the reality is that we should be sticking to our 0.7% commitment. It anyhow flexes up and down as the economy grows and contracts. And I don't think now is the right time to be cutting it. And indeed, we need to be

looking in the round anyway, in relation to defence, foreign policy and diplomacy. I think, I guess the final point it's worth making is yes we do invest in in all three of those areas defense diplomacy and development but collectively it probably accounts for about 90 well probably about three to four percent of our gross is invested in that foreign policy effort whereas around obviously about 96 97 percent is invested in our domestic policy. So the overall weight of investment is absolutely focused at home. Right. Let's talk then about what our commitment to international aid does for us on the international stage.

Well, of course, not only is it global leadership from Britain at a time when it's vital to show it, it has real impact on the ground. If you look at what we're doing, for example, in supporting Syrian refugees, supporting countries from slipping back into costly wars, we know that that actually can lead to massive migration when countries are in conflict. But I think more broadly, the development work we do is something we should be really proud of. We're a country that is helping get girls into schools and educate them. We're helping countries tackle FGM. We're helping to make sure that millions of children around the world are growing up healthy through the vaccinations work we do, through our support for polio, through supporting maternal health, through family planning, also through investment in nutrition. And I think if COVID has taught us one thing, it's that if you want a healthy economy, you have to have healthy people.

So I think in the round, the work that we do on education and health is absolutely crucial. And of course, much of it, Jane, is focused on girls, because certainly when I was at DFID, it was very clear to me and I would often say it. You're not going to get countries developing if half of their population is locked out of that. OK, can you give us then a really clear example of how girls' education has benefited from, if you like, the largesse of the British taxpayer? So we have a programme called the Girls' Educational Challenge, which was targeted at the countries and girls within those countries, for example, Afghanistan, who otherwise would very likely not have a chance to be educated.

And we know that often this is an issue as to why girls end up married early, because they are seen as having no value other than perhaps the dowry that their marriage might generate. And we know that when girls are educated, they are less likely to be married early, they are more likely to be able to be economically active. And of course, for the countries they're part of, that means they're better able to develop so all of this work does have a big impact and I talked at the beginning of this about how our work often stops countries slipping back into wars and and instability of course what we're also doing through the aid budget is helping countries develop and these are the trading markets of

the future and we've seen how much trade, for example, we do with China. That was a developing country maybe 10, 20 years ago. So this work isn't just about helping people on the ground. Actually, it's a smart thing for our country too. Right. It may be a daft question, but do those girls in Afghanistan understand that their education and their ability to access it is in part down to the british taxpayer they can't know that can they i i think the programs that countries like britain are well understood to be aid and development and i think development. And I think this is part of how our deeper links with countries are built up. But in and of itself, I think the key for me was that helping these countries to be able to stand on their two feet isn't just good for them, it's good for us. And so if you're a government that

believes in levelling up at home, then actually we should believe in levelling up overseas. And so you have these two challenges that we've been talking about this week, net zero and levelling up. But these are global challenges. And the Prime Minister often says talent spread evenly, opportunity not. That's true at a global level. And it's why we have migration. Well, why even begin to think of cutting international aid at a time when a vaccine appears to be hoving into view for some of us? We, of course, in Britain are very fortunate. We won't have to pay for it. Can we really abandon developing countries who might not be able to afford the vaccine? What do you think of that? I certainly hope not. And I know that earlier in the year, the Foreign Office was very clear that the COVID response globally was going to be one of their priorities for the aid and development

budget in the coming years. So I think government does understand that. I think the key now, more broadly domestically, is to have a long-term plan you know we're not going to shrink our shrinking our budgets is is and reducing for example investment in people is not going to be a way to help Britain thrive either I think we've heard a lot from government about investment in capital for the long term I think we now need to get some long-term investment plans in place for people and that means education and we've got a one year spending review. From my perspective, I think we should be looking far more longer term now, far beyond COVID to how we can build a much fairer Britain. Yes. I mean, I appreciate what you're saying. Many people will be sympathetic,

but you look and hear the headlines today, 4 million public sector workers to have their pay frozen, all the borrowing that was mentioned in that news bulletin, 22 billion in October. Honestly, is the average British voter that interested in international aid? And is it one of those things we could just not afford to let go, but we simply have to let go in the current climate? I think people do care about Britain's role in the wider world. And I think they really care about our response when it comes to humanitarian crises. I think what they now want to see from the government is a much longer term plan for how they're going to level up Britain at home. And

that in the end is the debate we really ought to be having. It sometimes feels to me, Jane, like we're constantly discussing the economy and fighting over day to day political issues. And it's almost like it's like arguing about how to better drive a car at 30 miles an hour. And what we really need to be debating for our economy is the equivalent of how do we shift up a gear. And that is a long term plan that requires a lot more than a one year spending review. If we're going to work out how we invest in people to do that. And from my perspective, if the government is committed to levelling up, it now needs to think much more ambitiously about how it can make sure that people in communities that have been locked out of opportunity for far too long are now able to be given the chance to develop their talent and potential

through education and skills investment to actually take advantage of opportunities on their doorstep. We did ask for a government statement this morning. There hasn't been one. But we should also say we are looking ahead to Rishi Sunak's spending review in terms of how it might impact on women next week on Women's Hour. Just a quick question about Priti Patel is obviously in the headlines this morning.

I've got the Times with me here. Patel, they say guilty of bullying staff, leaked report finds. Well, I'm not entirely sure that's exactly what the report says. And I know that she denies bullying intentionally. But I suppose it's worth asking whether you think sometimes the behaviour

of women in authority is misinterpreted relative to the way men can conduct themselves when they're in charge of things. Any thoughts on that? I think it's an interesting point. I actually think now when it comes to something like bullying, I think people know it when they see it, whether it's a man or a woman who's engaged in it. And I mean, obviously, I can't comment on this report. It's not being published. But I do hope that this whole event is concluded very soon. in three different departments, I always felt the key to success was really bringing your civil servants with you and getting them galvanised behind what you were trying to achieve in a common mission. And I think that's a far better way to get the best out of people. So I do hope this

report can be published soon. And I hope that we can see whatever action is necessary taken. Thank you very much. That's Justine Greening, was the Secretary of State for International Development. She now runs an initiative called the Social Mobility Pledge. Now to the power list and to the great communicator on the subject of the environment and all things green, many things green, Kate Humble. She's number 23 on Women's Hour's Our Planet power list for 2020.

She's had a TV career spanning 30 years, including all kinds of shows covering nature, wildlife and farming. But how important is television in helping people actually care about our planet? And I asked her, does everybody feel included in all the conversations around the subject of the environment? The word environment is deeply unsexy and it doesn't really sort of mean anything. You would never talk about that normally. You'd say, what's your garden like? Or what's your home like? Or, you know, what's your favourite room? You don't talk about your environment particularly. And that in itself, I think, is quite alienating. And it's such a big subject. There's so much out there that needs dealing with. And I think that can be very daunting, very off-putting, and sometimes have completely

the opposite effect that people like me want to have on people, which is of us mere mortals thinking we can't tackle this by ourselves. So we're just going to retreat or ignore it. Well, also, many of our listeners, many of us cannot go on some sort of expedition to the outer region of wherever it might be dressed in a safari suit. Nor could we join a massive public protest for whatever reason, because we've got lives to lead and jobs to do and all the rest of it. And sometimes it can feel like a world inhabited by a particular breed of people, often, if we're honest, white men. Yeah, I mean, that's a real shame, because putting on a safari suit and going somewhere

far flung may make you think, oh, lovely, you know, I've seen a giraffe in the wild. But that's not going to make a difference. The real difference is going to come from regular folk who can tell other regular folk, perhaps younger folk, what is wonderful about their immediate environment. One of the greatest losses, I think, that has happened in the sort of decades since I was at primary school, was that all children just went outside. They went on nature walks. I went to school in a little town called Maidenhead, nothing special about it, nothing particularly special about the school, but we would trot down on a Friday afternoon to the little park at the end of the road and pick up acorns or leaves or bird's nests or whatever it was. But those very, very early collecting things for the nature table were formative, I think, for me. They connected me directly with nature. And I think that's something that our generation, Jane, can do because we still had

that connection with nature. And I think for me, it is about really concentrating on the way that this next generation is able to engage with it. And it doesn't mean sending them on hugely expensive foreign trips, not a bit of it. You know, we're very, very lucky in this country that we've got a lot of green space. We've got fantastic reserves. We've got amazing organisations, you know, like the Wildlife Trusts, WWT, RSPB, the National Trust. We've got these great organisations that can give people access to the natural world, to the environment, and lots of them have great resources for people to learn about. So saying I can't, I haven't got time to go on a march or I haven't got the right safari suit is not an excuse to not engage with the environment. And I think actually, you know, the real difference is going to be made by just regular folk like us noticing what's on our doorstep and making small changes or better still, telling other people about what's special about it. You have made it to our list in the communicators category.

So casting all modesty aside, Kate, why do you think that is? And can you point to a moment when you believe you got your point across and people understood something because of something you'd said? Well, I can't cast all modesty aside, Jane, because I am blown away by being on this list. I'm absolutely delighted that your listeners have thought of me as a communicator. And I suppose what makes me an effective communicator is that I am not a specialist. I don't have a degree. I didn't go to university. I'm just an ordinary woman who is curious and interested and has been amazingly lucky to have the job that I have,

which has brought me into contact with some of the great specialists in their field. and I think the lovely thing about being an ordinary woman who's nosy is that you don't have any fear about asking anything you want and that's what I've always done when people say to me you know what what does your job entail I said it's basically just asking people what I want to ask them and I've been doing that for 30 years and I've never feared being or feeling stupid. I don't think there's such a thing. If you're asking somebody a question, that's not stupid. That's just curiosity. As I say, curiosity is hugely important. And I think that has allowed me to always take the part or the role or the side of the viewer or the listener because I'm I'm them yeah I mean to be honest it's not dissimilar to the way I've um lived my what

you might loosely call my professional life um but can we as this is a program that's designed to be about positivity um let's face it um bobbling around in a sea of negativity at the moment. What has changed for the better over the course of your career and over the course of the last 30 years? What I have seen is a definite move to more female broadcasters doing proper jobs, not just being sidekicks. Women with great authority who don't have to wear a sparkly dress just to be on the telly, you know, fantastic historians, scientists, environmentalists, naturalists, that has really happened. I've really seen a change there where women are now starting to be, I think, properly respected for their knowledge and for their ability to communicate. And, you know, correct me if I'm wrong, but I think often women do make the best

communicators because we spend our lives having to communicate and justify sometimes and explain in a way that men seem not to have to do quite as much. And I think that has enabled us to be somehow more inclusive, actually, as broadcasters and as writers and as experts. And in terms of television programmes, has television really changed hearts and minds here when we think about the way we treat our environment? That's a really tricky question because, of course, I would love to say, yeah, absolutely, it's changed hearts and minds. But I have a fear that it hasn't done enough. And it's a little bit like I remember some time ago when there was a huge, you know, you couldn't turn on the television without there being a cookery show on. And yet there was still people were buying more ready meals than ever before. that television is a wonderful medium for putting out information, but it is also escapism. And I will sit down to watch a blue chip natural history programme with my jaw on my chest going,

oh my goodness, this is wonderful. But somehow seeing it through a screen can still make it feel otherworldly and not quite the place that we inhabit. And even if the problems that are talked about in that documentary, whether it's overpopulation or creeping urbanisation or habitat loss or whatever it is, can still somehow feel irrelevant when you're sitting on your sofa. And somehow I think we are still missing the ultimate way to include everybody in the challenge of conserving, preserving, protecting and living with nature and our environment that is sustainable for the future. And I know I'm not alone in thinking there has to be a better way of doing it. But I, to be absolutely honest, I may never work again when I say this. I don't think we've cracked it yet. I really don't. Between you and me, I think she will work again. That's Kate Humble. She is brilliant,

always really engaging and good to talk to. And that's one of the reasons why that people putting together our power list wanted to have her on the list because she's someone who gets her point across brilliantly. I think she's right, isn't she, that we can sit there and on the couch and just absorb these wildlife programmes. But are we actually going out and picking up rubbish in our local park? Not often enough. But there are some women who do that, and that's why the Power List is worth a look at because there are all sorts of different names on there doing lots and lots of grassroots work,

often with no money at all. If you want to know more about the Power List, our planet for 2020, go to the Woman's Hour website, bbc.co.uk forward slash woman's hour we've got loads of good stuff as well on our socials at bbc woman's hour on twitter and instagram next week uh taxidermy oh yes more women are getting in to taxidermy i was a bit worried that you might have to put your hands in it and get all the innards out

apparently it's not quite like that. All will be explained next week on Woman's Hour. And we're looking as well on Tuesday at relationship advice for older couples. Bickering, I suppose, is the level we're at here. Have you noticed, perhaps if you are an older person, you're in a long relationship. Has lockdown meant that inevitably you're spending so much more time together? Has it been tricky for you? You can email us. We won't necessarily use your real name on air, but you can tell us your story and we'll discuss relationship advice for older people next week on the programme.

Email us via the website. Now, houses you have lived in. How many do you think they've been? Flats, bedsits over the years? I tried to count and I couldn't come up with the number of properties I've been. Linda Hill is at the other end of all this. She's moved just once in 37 years of marriage. She is now in her late 50s. And we'll talk to Carol Ingram, who lives now in Scotland, but she moved many, many times over the course of her husband's military career. Jane Christmas, first of all, because you kicked this all off for us with your book about moving. Just explain a little bit about your life story, Jane, if you can.

Well, my goodness, it really began when I was growing up. I was either blessed or cursed with a mother who was a serial renovator and mover. And she was the one that just kept uprooting our family over and over again. My father was somehow nonplussed by any of this. And it just carried on. And I know I vowed that I was never going to do this and never going to put any children that I had through this because invariably when there was a house to renovate, we were, my brother and I were called in to do the work. And so it just sort of went on and on and on. And unfortunately, over time, I guess the bug sort of just sat with me and, you know, the apple apple doesn't fall far from the tree, as they say. And through my life, I just ended up moving as well many times at university when I was changing jobs, when I entered the workforce.

And then, of course, I was married and then divorced and then remarried and then divorced again. So that upheaval also necessitates moves. So that's how it sort of began. Now, you're speaking to us from your current home in Toronto. It's the very wee small hours of the Friday morning we inhabit. So thank you for doing that. Well, no, I actually, can I correct you? I'm not at home. I'm in Toronto. That's true. But I'm, I live in Bristol and I just come over here this week to Toronto. Right. To see your family. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Sorry. I thought for a second that you'd moved again, Jane. I wouldn't put it past you. So yes, you move in Bristol. You're living in Bristol at

the moment. Actually your book, which is called Open House, A Life in 32 Moves, begins with Like I never could believe that they would be so awful. But it was that. And there were other little things, too. I think we all have this imagine. We imagine what life by the seaside would be like. And we all dream of retiring to that kind of lifestyle. And it's different once you're there and you realize some of the things that you give up from city living and your life becomes a little bit smaller. And at a certain point in your life, you sort of want a bigger life.

And so, you know, there we I think we lasted three years and certainly the seagulls helped move us along. And but it was it was lovely. I mean, our neighbors were lovely and and we do miss the town but well i'm i want i'm expecting some tweets and emails from brixham before the program is out so they'll hopefully they'll get in touch um linda i know that you are you really are someone who would think very very carefully about moving house how long have you been in your present home in lincolnshire linda um almost 34 years 34 years in in february you been in your present home in Lincolnshire Linda? Almost 34 years 34 years in in February. And is this your dream home? No this is what I love but the trauma of moving the first time has put me off moving completely I would never do it again. Right what

was so bad about it? Well initially we were meant to be moving six weeks after the date we actually moved. And I was in hospital having my tonsils out. And my husband came to visit me. I woke up with him next to the bed in hospital. And instead of saying, how are you? Is it painful? He said, sign this. We're moving on Friday.

And because I'm allergic to dust and house dust mites, I wasn't allowed out of hospital. I went home to my parents. My poor husband had to do the whole move on his own in four days. And then the day after we moved in, we had a court summons for non-payment of rates for the previous owners. We had the milkman knock on the door and request 30 something pounds for non-payment of milk bill. The paper shop put a bill through the door. Mobin Kitchens rang and said they were going to come and repossess our kitchen because it hadn't been paid for. And to be perfectly honest, within the first week of being here, I vowed I would never, ever move again. I tell you what, Linda, 34 years ago, and you haven't forgotten a thing about that, have you?

The trauma. It was incredibly traumatic. And the couple who lived here before had three very small boys, all under the age of seven. So, for example, when we took up the carpet, can you imagine carpet in the downstairs loo? Underneath, the underlay was somewhat akin to golden syrup or honey. Thanks for that, Linda. I just want to bring in Carol Ingram, who joins us now from just outside Glasgow, aren't you, Carol? Good morning to you. Yeah, morning. Now, tell everybody how many times you, well, you were obliged to move house because your husband was in the military.

That's right. So he was in the military for 25 years and over that time we had 16 different addresses. Sometimes we were in one place for maybe 18 months, two years, but sometimes it was only for nine, 10 months. And that's moving within the UK, moving to Europe, moving overseas. So, yeah, we've moved a lot and no choice in the matter because, mind, to someone in the military, you've got to go with them. Well, you have and you did and you went any number of times

with your two sons now um you emailed the program and explained that they um they have autism and that means that they're i would imagine that moving house would be something they'd absolutely loathe how did you manage that uh um lots of planning um list after list after list um fortunately i'm quite organised I don't know if because of, in spite of or just organised anyway but yeah, both of them very particular about how their rooms are

so that's the last thing on the truck, first thing off the truck and then replicate how their rooms looked pretty much from one house to the next as best we could. So make sure that the right trains are sitting on the right surface

and the walls are the same colour and all that sort of thing. So yeah, an added bonus. So yeah, and add another list of things to do. So take a picture of one room and make sure we had that picture ready to put everything out and in the new house each and every time wow um that it's phenomenal actually carol and you you take it all um in your stride clearly i know you have now settled um you were

telling me yes i'm calm now yes you asked me a week after i've moved no you're having a richly deserved wonderful time i know living just outside Glasgow. I think Carol told me earlier she was about 20 minutes from Glasgow, half an hour from Loch Lomond. How bad can that be? Sounds absolutely brilliant. When you hear that, Linda, how does that make you feel? I'm absolutely in awe, actually, that anybody could go through that process so many times and make that replication of rooms. I mean, our whole ethos here has been to develop the house and to make it our own.

But that has taken 34 years. I can't imagine doing that every move. No, I mean, it is it is quite remarkable. And I think Carol underplays the significance of everything she's been through. Jane, do you honestly think that the pattern is set in childhood? You describe your own mother's attitude and you say yourself that you think it might be about in the book, too, I mean, there are a couple of reasons. When we moved into the house that we're in now in Bristol and we were renovating it, it really just got to me as I was, you know, trying to peel the wood chip wallpaper off the walls. And anybody who's done that knows what a wonderful bit of therapy that is. And as you're doing that sort of repetitive motion, your mind starts spiraling back to memories. And I began to ask myself, why have I moved this much? And how many times have I stripped wallpaper? And then I began to count up the number of homes that I had lived in. And then I looked at my past and went, yes, you know, my mother was

really had an impact on on that behavior for me. But also in the when I was about 30, I was raped and I never told anybody about it. And it was something that I carried around for a very long time. And I realized, in just sort of charting the years since that experience, that I needed to, I found that by agitating my environment, I was able to sort of obscure that memory reel that just keeps replaying in your mind about the event. Anybody who's been through a traumatic experience knows that you just keep replaying that event over and over again. But if I, when I moved, I would stir up all this chaos and then renovating would be adding even more to it and I could push those bad memories to the back. So this was a real revelation to me. You know, it's one thing to keep blaming your mother, but then there are other things too. And so now understanding why I have that behavior, it has actually caused me to settle down a bit. And plus, I have a husband who

absolutely refuses to move again. So that's sort of put paid to all that. Well, I know Bristol is a city that many people love. So I'm sure you will be happy there. And I very much hope you are, Jane. Thank you very much indeed. And thanks to Linda, who's never moving again. I'm in Linda's camp. I have to be absolutely honest about that. I'm literally one of those people who I'm going to be taken out of this house in a box. Is that you as well, Linda? I think so. And I think what Jane just said about her past is very much part of it for me.

I mean, my childhood home was one that my father built on my grandfather's land. So I think that idea of staying put is very firmly in my psyche. It's so fascinating, isn't it? So many different motivations. Thank you all very much. We could have talked about this for ages and loads of great emails we'll put in the Women's Hour podcast later on. Thank you all very much indeed. Thanks to Carol just outside Glasgow as well. Now we're exploring our life through the prism of footwear, my life in shoes on the programme. Over the next couple of weeks, we've heard one story already. Here's another one. This is lovely. It's Christina, who lives in Lyon in France and works as a conference interpreter. She emailed the programme to tell us about a pair of shoes she

never actually owned. So here's the story, which starts nearly 50 years ago. It was in the 1970s, the early 1970s. At the time, I was about eight years old and I lived in a little village called Tarvin, which is about six miles out of Chester. And every Thursday, my mum would go and do her weekly shop in the shops in Chester. It was like the big outing. And it must have been the autumn half-term school holidays. And so she took me shopping with her and we were running around the shop. She was whisking around saying, we've got to be back to get the bus, as we always used to get the bus back from town. We were in British home stores for some reason. And I just walked past these

shoes and I saw these red shoes just staring at me. They were kind of red brogues, you know, there's five whole brogues. They were made out of patent plastic. They had this kind of red brogues, you know, those five-hole brogues. They were made out of patent plastic. They had this kind of crackle effect on them and black lasers. I remember everything about them vividly. And they were just incandescent. They were like glowing as if they were on fire and they were shouting out to me saying, buy me, buy me, buy me. But, you know, my mum, she was always on a,

we were always on a shoestring budget. There were three kids to look after. She didn't really have much money. Well, the family didn't. And we only had two pairs of shoes a year, maximum if we were lucky. We had to have one pair that would last us through the winter. And then maybe if we were lucky, we'd get a pair of sandals. So that was it. So these shoes, she clearly didn't like the look of them because they really didn't look very practical at all. And there was no way she was going to buy them for me. She said, no, you can't have them.

You can't have them. And didn't really give me any reason why I couldn't have them. So that kind of stuck in my mind. And then so I had a bit of a tantrum and she had to really prize me out of the store. I wasn't even allowed to try them on. She had to prize me out of there and put me back on the bus. And then when we got back home, I just went into my room and barricaded myself in the room

for about three days. It was a Thursday, so it was the end of the school holidays, so I didn't come out of my room until Monday when I had to go back to school again, really. I love that. When you came out of your room, did you emerge with some dignity, Christina? How did you proceed? Do you remember?

I really don't remember that part. All I know is there was no talk about the red shoes. They became a kind of taboo subject. And I probably just sulked my way down the drive to wait for the school bus. And that was it, really. There was never any talk about the red shoes ever again. And have you spent the rest of your life looking for those shoes? Well, absolutely. Yes, I have. I've spent the rest because while I was in my room for those three

days, I forgot to mention, I made a vow to myself that I would one day get those red shoes. And as I'd gone back to school, there was no go back into town. Obviously, I didn't have any pocket money anyway, so I would never have been able to buy these shoes myself. So I kind of forgot about the red shoes. But then as I grew up, every time I went shoe shopping, it was always the red shoes. And I've bought so many pairs of red shoes over the years. None of them are exactly the same as the shoes I saw, which I remember vividly, but there were always some kind of variation or permutation of the shoes I saw that day. Did you ever... Yes, I've been on a quest, sorry.

Yeah, did you ever talk about this to your mum? No, I didn't actually. It was very strange. My mum wasn't really that talkative a person and it was a bit of a sore subject, maybe, really. And to be honest with you, I think the reason why I like these red shoes is because my mum had a big thing for the film The Wizard of Oz and so did I. And we'd watched The Wizard of Oz and I saw these red shoes. They were like Dorothy's ruby slippers, you know, looking at me. And I think as soon as I saw them, I thought that they would be, well, first of all, a kind of rebellion against these black shoes that we always had to wear. And they were kind of a ticket to ride for me and that they would, you know, take me out of this very boring or what I saw as boring sepia world to a technicolor world where there'd be magical powers all over the place. And I would go, you know, on my dream quest towards the Emerald City and all my dreams would come true. So I think my mum probably saw this maybe in these red shoes

and thought this is her first strike for rebellion against the black shoes that she always has to wear. And your mum was called Dorothy, that's important. Yes, exactly, my mum was called Dorothy. So maybe it was also because I wanted to be like her because I really did admire my mum who'd had a difficult childhood. And she was a very strong woman with a lot of resilience. And she'd been a nurse in the war and things like that. And she did volunteer work for 30 years. So I kind of looked up to her, even if she was only 4'6", and I'm 5'7". But yes, she was a very, very strong woman. And unfortunately, she died earlier this year, didn't she?

Yes, she passed away, unfortunately, in June. She suddenly fell ill. My sister Anita, who was a saint, had been looking after her for about six years, more than six years. And thanks very much to my sister Anita, she was able to spend her final hours and stay at home and spend her final hours at home, which was, it's a source of solace for me now, actually, to think that she never had to leave that home that she loved and that she tried to make for us for a wonderful family life. But I guess every single time you put on a pair of your special red shoes you're thinking well your mum's in your mind isn't she?

Well exactly I'm wearing the red shoes now to bring me luck for the interview. I know shoes don't really have any power or magical power. That's just fairy tale stuff. But to be honest with you, I wish I could be like in The Wizard of Oz and I could just tap my heels together and say three times, there's no place like home and then wake up with my mum by my side again. It would be wonderful. I thought that was fantastic. A real insight into the life of that listener, Christina, who now lives in France. But of course, she has that very vivid memory of that elusive pair of red shoes. Jan says, my mother would not let me have red shoes when I was a teenager.

She said, red shoes, no drawers. It was apparently a Birmingham expression. I'll have to take your word for that, Jan. I didn't quite where it comes from. Perhaps another listener could illuminate on that one. Arlene, beautiful and courageous tale from Christina about her relationship with her mother, sparked by her childhood desire for a pair of red shoes. You've got a brilliant short story there. Love listening to it. Yes, I thought that was red shoes. You've got a brilliant short story there. Love listening to it. Yes, I thought that was absolutely true.

You could write a beautiful, if you were able to write, you could write a beautiful story around that subject. Karen said, does anybody remember flat, soft leather shoes called Harlem Globetrotters?

I developed a passion to have a pair in the 50s when I was about 13. I remember every detail of their design from the small strap, saddle stitching and square toes. I've looked for a similar pair or a photo of vintage shoes like that ever since. That doesn't ring a bell with me, Karen, but perhaps someone will know exactly what you're talking about. Let us know if you do. Moving house was a subject that got a lot of you interested. Paul says, I have moved 36 times. I've lived in London in my youth and just seem never to have

put down real roots. Elspeth says, I'd hate to move again, but people renting often have no choice. Good point, actually. Elizabeth says, we've decided to move house because of ongoing conflict with noisy neighbours. But the prospect is completely daunting. We've just spent six months caring for my mother, who's in the last stages of terminal cancer. I will have her house to clear in addition to our own, plus the annex where she's been living with us at a time when we are both feeling completely drained of energy. Elizabeth, that's very tough. Best wishes to you. I hope things get a little better for you.

Sue says, this is the opposite really of what your contributors were saying today, but my husband was 72 in September and we live in the house where he was born. Clearly, he will never move house. Okay, so you don't tell us how you feel about that. He's not going anywhere. How do you feel? From Tina.

My dad was in the forces, so about every two or three years we had to move on to another station. Moving house became increasingly traumatic as I got older. I remember at nine sobbing in the bathroom of our new house because I felt so alone. All my friends were gone

and my dearly loved grandparents seemed so far away. Each move after that was a trial of leaving good friends and the security of knowing my place in school. School was the worst thing about every move. There was always initial aggression because I was a stranger and more especially because I sounded different. My dad left the forces and we moved back to my dad and mum's home area when I was around 13. And after a horrible first two weeks of trying to find a place in a school,

I settled into a good one and started making roots. I'm sure this affected me as I never look to move home. In my adult life, I've only moved twice, once when I was married, the second time 15 years later to the home I've now been in for 20 years. Yes, it sounds like you're settled, Sue, and I can't blame you after that start. Susanna says, interested to hear about a moving house.

As an army wife, we moved 19 times in 30 years over four continents. It was nothing unusual, always an adventure. It boggles my mind because I just couldn't do that. But I think so many of you listening have been through similar experiences and I really am in awe of it. Sarah says, I'm about to move for the fourth time in four years. And I found because of that, I'm much more relaxed about the whole process. Although I realised recently that I've moved boxes from the first house and still haven't unpacked some of them four moves later.

Sharon says, having moved two days ago on Wednesday, I can confirm it is both exhilarating and exhausting. Husband and I had downsized to a one bed flat two years ago as an interim measure. Covid, working from home and family matters, meant we needed to find somewhere bigger to rent. My husband's belief that moving from a smaller property to a bigger one would be relatively easy was thoroughly disproved.

It seems stuff just expands to fit the larger areas. I think that's true. COVID meant that we had to be careful too with mask wearing, social distancing and keeping surfaces clean. From Bronwyn, I have moved 24 times in total in my life so far. Amongst those moves, I've done four international ones. Being organised is key and preparing ahead of time.

Decluttering and letting go of stuff is a great help as well. The actual move is much easier compared to all the companies you need to contact to notify of change of address. That's the part I don't like. Mary is another military wife with 22 house moves under her belt, she says. The worst thing was not the actual move, but the cleaning of the married quarter at March Out. It had to look better than when you moved in, Wow, can you imagine that? From Sue, army daughter and then wife lived in 14 houses in England, Austria and France with my parents and then 21 with my husband. I loved every one, enjoyed making them our homes. Now I've moved again after my husband died, the hardest one because of the things I had to get rid of but

I've got my memories which are so precious. Sue, I don't doubt it and you can look back with real pride on that, 14 houses and as you say you took such pleasure in making them your home it's sometimes something people take for granted that but it's actually so important and some people I was going to say some women are just brilliant at doing it we've had so many on this subject thank you I can't actually include them all so thank you very much and it suggests that this is something you enjoy discussing and perhaps want to talk about more um kate humble is always a popular guest helen says i just wanted to agree with kate about contact with nature in schools back in the early 70s

when i was in junior school we used to have nature tables yes i remember those you could bring in anything you'd found out and about and especially on the way to school. So you definitely knew when it was conker season and acorn season. Plenty of feathers as well. Oh, yeah. Occasionally, the teacher would discuss what was on the table, who'd brought in what and where they'd found it. I don't think there's space in the curriculum for this anymore. Well, it's been a while since my children left primary school, but I think they do still do a fair bit of that, Helen. I know my own my oldest daughter had a collection of sticks that she talked about in Show and Tell.

She was extremely keen on sticks, slightly less so now. She is 21 or nearly. Rachel says in response to the Kate Humble interview, individual small actions are not going to solve the climate and the ecological crisis, and neither is picking up rubbish in the park. Please stop giving credence to this misleading information. We're in the biggest crisis humanity has faced. We need big, bold change on a planetary level.

Yes, I take your point, Rachel. What I meant was it's no good just slumping, watching the likes of Kate and David Attenborough if you then dump your crisp bag in your local park um that's what you've got to you've got to live it haven't you um Jo says I wanted to say how much I agreed with Kate Humble when she said that nature walks had given her a connection with nature I had the same experience when I was about nine in the 50s we'd go on a nature walk every week and bring back leaves and berries and we'd draw them. I can remember so vividly the pleasure those lessons gave me and a very strong connection with nature, which has stayed with me all my life.

Yes, I think a lot of you just really enjoyed hearing Kate reminiscing about that sort of stuff. I'm not saying it doesn't go on in schools now. I really do think it does. But I take your point that perhaps it was more commonly done 20, 30, 40 years ago. Thank you all. Hope you can join us for the best of the Women's Hour week in radio and podcast form over the course of the weekend. Next week, we're talking about the government spending review and what that might mean for women. We're also discussing taxidermy, which is getting more popular with younger women. I didn't know that either. And relationships in lockdown. How has it been for you? Are you finding that you are disagreeing rather more?

Do older couples seek relationship counselling? All that and more on Women's Air next week. The deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.