Woman's Hour - Kate Rusby, Gay Women and Sport, Motor Racing

Episode Date: May 17, 2022

Kate Rusby is one of the UK’s leading folk singers. She joins Andrea Catherwood to talk about her latest album 30: Happy Returns. She's collaborated with musicians such as Ladysmith Black Mambazo, K. T. Tunstall and Richard Hawley to sing new versions of her old songs and to celebrate thirty years of making music. The footballer Jake Daniels has come out as gay. He's the first current male professional footballer to do so, which shows you how unusual it is. So, is it harder to be yourself in the men's game compared to the women's? With us on Woman's Hour is the footballer Lianne Sanderson who's won 50 international caps for England and was the first professional female player to come out 12 years ago, and Dr Rachael Bullingham, who's a senior lecturer at the University of Gloucestershire and specialises in homophobia in women's sport. We speak to the BBC's Sarah Rainsford who's covering the war in Ukraine about the Wives of Azov. Their husbands are part of the Azov Regiment who are seen as heroes in Ukraine because they've been defending Mariupol, but they've been trapped for more than two months in a steel works. Overnight some of them managed to get out of there. Paula McGowan's autistic son died when because he was given anti-psychotic drugs, despite warnings from him and his family. His death was described as ‘avoidable’. Paula is now on the brink of achieving her goal which is that all health and social care staff must, by law, undergo mandatory training in autism and learning disability awareness. We speak to Paula, as well as Alexis Quinn, who's been involved in piloting the training.

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Andrea Catherwood and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Good morning. Heralded as grind-breaking and historic, not to mention brave, Jake Daniels, the 17-year-old striker for Blackpool Football Club, is all over the front pages of today's newspapers, having come out as gay, making him the first current male professional footballer to do so. In fact, extraordinarily, there are only two openly gay men in the whole of professional football worldwide.

Here's what he said. I feel like I'm ready to tell people about my story. I want people to know the real me. Lying all the time isn't what I've wanted to do, and it has been a struggle, but now I just do feel like I'm people to know the real me and lying all the time isn't what I've wanted to do and it has been a struggle but now I just do feel like I'm ready to be myself, be free and just be confident with it all.

I'm ready to be myself were Jake's words there. But it seems like it's a very different story in women's sport or is it? This morning we want to hear from you about whether or not you can be yourself in sport. Whether you're a professional or enjoy some gentle five-a-side, whether it's on the tennis court or golf course, netball or rugby,

whatever your sport, whatever your level, do you think it's easier for women to be themselves? And if so, why? What's it been like for you? We'd love to shed some light on this and we will be talking to women from the world of football and to British motor racing driver Sarah Moore who herself made history as the first openly LGBT plus woman to stand on a podium on a Formula One weekend. Please do get in touch with your own experiences or thoughts on this. You can text Women's Hour on 84844. On social media it's's at BBC Women's Hour, or you can email us through the website. Also on the programme, as some Ukrainian soldiers escape the steelworks in Mariupol, we'll have the latest from Ukraine and hear about the wives who've been campaigning for safe passage

for their husbands under siege. And the mother who's tireless campaigning will change the law so all health and social care staff in England will be given training in autism and learning disability awareness in response to the death of her own autistic son at just 18. And singer Kate Rusby will be joining us. Her new album celebrates 30 years in the music business and collaborates with some of her favourite artists.

She's going to be singing live for us. But back now to our top story and the footballer Jake Daniels coming out as gay, making him the first current male professional footballer to do so. How does it compare to women's sports? Well, I'm delighted to say I'm joined by the footballer Leanne Sanderson, who won 50 international caps for England and was the first professional female player to come out 12 years ago. And Dr. Rachel Bullingham, who's a senior lecturer at the University of Gloucestershire and specialises in homophobia in women's sport.

Leanne, what was your reaction to Jake Daniels coming out yesterday? Yeah, I thought it was absolutely fantastic. I mean, obviously, I get asked this question quite a lot why i know male footballers have come out and my answer is it should always be down upon based upon the person's personal preference now nobody should feel forced to but as jake said in one of the interviews he did it's the weight on your shoulders and that carrying that around with you and i've always said it makes you play better makes you feel freer in life and he used a kind of couple of words that I thought were kind of um quite cutting you know he said about lying because you do feel that way when you say oh you know what have you done at the weekend and people feel like they have

to share different stories and make things up and that becomes tiring as well thankfully for me I didn't feel like I had to do that now they're like in women's football there's always this stereotype that every single female footballer is gay, which isn't true. And the male footballers cannot be gay because you're playing in a, you know, a macho so-called sport. But welcome to 2022 because things are changing and, you know, you can be gay and be a footballer. And realistically, I hopefully in time, this will become a non-story. You know, my phone didn't stop going off yesterday, which is absolutely fantastic. And I'll support Jake in any way that I can.

And it is absolutely a story right now because it's brave to be the first person because when you're the first, believe you and me, it does become the brunt of a lot of things, but he's very brave in doing this. And hopefully, you know, he can create a platform where everybody else feels like they can do the same. It's really interesting you talk about the idea

that there's this kind of trope that lots of women in sport, in football, are gay and yet no man can be gay. I mean, it sounds ridiculous, but I suppose that does still ring true. I mean, you came out as gay 12 years ago. Now many other female footballers and indeed other athletes are out. Is that the difference between men's and women's games? Is it this idea of the macho nature of men's football? To a certain degree, I think so. But I just think it's a stereotype that women's football has always had from many, many years ago.

From when I first started playing football at the age of nine years old, it was almost like the comments you used to get and stuff like that. But I think it all comes down to education. And I think now people are finally seeing that certain flippant words do offend you you know things that might be said in the playground when I was a youngster can no longer be said and I think it's just educating people and what can what's right and wrong as crazy as that sounds because sometimes people say things and I think to myself how do you know that's how do you not know that's not wrong but going back to the point about Jake I mean I just think it's so brave and I know

a lot of people have said well it doesn't really matter no it absolutely does matter and I think for someone like myself 12 years ago you know when I came out it wasn't I was very fortunate my family you know had that support and stuff like that and as I've said before nobody should ever feel forced to it should always be a personal choice but I would encourage anybody that can to do that because it's a massive weight off your shoulders for your life, not just for sports, because I think, obviously, my life has been a lot with football and sports, but this is about your life.

You know, I know we think football is our life, which it is my life, but, you know, it's about how you feel in your everyday life and feeling your mental health. It can impact. And, you know, I have lots of parents reach out to me from all different types of communities that ask me for my advice. And I'm so happy that I have the platform that I do to help people. But I'm not an expert.

So just because I'm a footballer, you know, that happens to be gay or an ex-footballer doesn't mean I know the right and wrong answers. So, you know, I try and help people any way that I can. And if me coming out was help people, then hopefully that could be the case. And I think now going forward we'll see players in the men's game feel comfortable and not have to retire like Thomas Hitzelsperger retired then he came out Robbie Rogers actually retired and then kind of did a u-turn on his retirement and came back to playing again because he wasn't sure of the repercussions of coming out so you know like I said it's massive bravery from Jake and I'm really happy for him and I'm sure like I said, it's massive bravery from Jake. And I'm really happy for him. And I'm sure, like I said on my social media last night,

he stepped a little bit lighter last night. Indeed. Rachel, what do you put down? What do you put this down to? The kind of the difference between the attitudes in male and female sport? Yeah, there is a distinct difference. Leanne has covered it quite nicely in terms of what she has, what she said and the difference between men's and women's sport.

But the other thing we need to think about is the history. You know, men's football has been going, professional football has been going a really long time. Women's professional football is still really comparatively in its infancy. So there are differences there as well. But there's also been a stigma around football in terms of it being such a big story because we're waiting for this one player to come out. As Leanne said, we've had Thomas Hitzberger

and Robbie Rogers as well, but they've done it towards the end of their careers or they've retired. So this is a real game changer. Jake's young, he's starting his career. It's quite unusual for um athletes historically um male athletes to come out at the start of their career um because because of all the things that we've talked about in terms of um you know safety and

that they feel uh perceived homophobia that they might feel uh from either their teammates the manager the crowd and so on and a lot of of that is because of history. As Ian said, because Jake's come out, hopefully he's going to open the door for a lot more people to do so because of the reaction that he has had. It's been very positive online. Hopefully that continues. But the only story we had previously with a professional player coming out didn't end well at all. You're talking about Justin Fashenu. Yeah, and it's a tragic story

and because he came out and the story we know about ended really tragically. I'm just going to, just for people who aren't aware, Justin Fashenu, I think he came out in 1990. He was a very successful professional footballer, but very sadly later he ended his own life.

Yes. So that story is one that kind of hangs over football because that is the only player that's come out. And obviously it was such a tragic end to the story and Justin losing his life. And if this now with Jake coming out and being so positive with the reaction, hopefully that really does change the narrative. And a lot of research that myself and colleagues have done, I work predominantly in women's team sport, but my colleagues work in and around men's sport and men's football. They are finding really positive changing attitudes and acceptance. And hopefully with Jake coming out, we can see that happening for a player in real life

and that he can really be a trailblazer for others, as Leanne was in the women's game. In the 1990s, there was a lot of negative chanting in the stands. It's something that it's almost, I hope I'm right in saying that I don't imagine that will happen today. But does homophobia still manifest itself in both women's and men's sport? Well, it's a really interesting point, actually. With the research that I've done in women's sport, the comments that people had tended to be historic ones. So they had had homophobia, they knew what it was, because they'd had it previously. But more recently, they hadn't really received homophobia in terms of comments and so on in the same way, and were fully accepted by their teams. In terms of men's sport, there has been research done on chanting by a colleague of mine, Dr Rory McGrath at Southampton Solent, and he found that people are still chanting homophobia to try and get their team's advantage,

but that doesn't necessarily connect to that attitude towards homosexuality. They are doing it to get their team to win the game as opposed to it being what they actually think and what their attitudes are towards homophobia. So often when chance happen, they're connected to attitudes. And that's not always the case. So we need to avoid kind of making those sweeping generalizations but hopefully we will see with Jake coming out that there is a real shift and the shift needs to come from people within the game so allies and people watching

because they're the people that can make the real difference Jake has taken this really big step but now it's the people around football that need to be able to support and make sure that there is this shift in culture. I wanted to pick up something that Rachel just said as well, because you're absolutely right when it comes to allies. I mean, when you see people like Gary Lineker, Sean Wright Phillips, posting about this type of stuff, it really does make a difference. It really does, because we need people like that, you know,

in the public eye to support these types of things. And was a player in Australia Josh Covello that actually came out this year as well and he was I think he was the first you know in the world in men's football actively playing and I think the fact that he did that not saying that allowed Jake to do that but it's almost like the amount of he got endorsement you know that's not why he did it but he saw the amount of support that he got for that and everybody else did. And it all comes back to being a safe space for everybody to feel comfortable, you know, as Rachel said.

Leanne, when I was looking at news reports and interviews that you've done, it's very often the first thing that you're asked about in an interview is about being gay. Does that bother you? Would you like it to be reversed and they actually talk about your football career first that's a great question because when i went to italy to play for juventus i said to the press officer um i don't want to do

any more interviews about being gay because they can just copy and paste them and i'm a footballer first and foremost and you know i've won a lot in my career i won the champions league won the fa cup four times won the league and it almost becomes and you know my girlfriend sounds says to me i sound like a stuck record but i want to be known for leanne sanderson the footballer not that happens to be gay not leanne sanderson the gay footballer and i understand that's the platform that i have but you're absolutely right and i used to think are they only am i only here because i'm gay you know i don't want to be a token gesture i want to be you know i'm a good footballer i've done a lot in my career. I'm player of the year in England, you know, like I'm one of the all-time leading goal scorers for Arsenal.

But I do think it became then a big, that was the biggest thing anyone ever spoke to me about. And I used to think, hmm, this is a bit annoying here. But at the same time, I understand it because I recognise the amount of people it helps. But from my own perspective, it is quite difficult sometimes because people just kind of pigeonhole you. And that's the only thing people know you for. But thankfully, I think in the last kind of five or six years, I've moved away from that.

Well, Leanne, let me ask you then about something that's nothing to do with your sexuality, because this weekend, the Women's FA Cup final was played on the same weekend as the men's for the first time. Of course, as you know, last month, I think there was record highest attendance at a women's football match in Barcelona and England is hosting the Women's European Championship this summer. So it does feel like we're in a really special place for the women's game at the moment. Yeah, absolutely. It's a fantastic time. And I've always said, if you advertise something, people will attend.

And I've always felt like the marketing strategies were just not there in the women's game. We play at Wembley on the weekend and you know when I was playing and we'd have 60,000 people there and we'd go back to Boreham Wood and there'd be about 2,000 people there and I used to say where's everybody gone but it comes down to advertising and you know I was driving in London the other day and I saw underneath one of the underpasses and there was a massive you know digital video of the women's FA Cup final and I was saying to the driver oh my god this is amazing and he must have thought I was crazy because to everybody else it seems like just a simple advertisement but at the end of the day if you advertise it people will come and I was fortunate enough to go to both the games at the

weekend and I was sitting there it's the first time I've been to a women's FA Cup final it as a fan and I was sitting there taken back and I probably sounded like a stuck record because I was like I cannot believe that I'm at a women's football match and there's like you know separate pubs fans are going in Chelsea fans are going into one City fans are going into one and it was like amazing and you know it's still great to see that there's a lot of young girls going young boys there's boys with team players on the back of their shirts and this is something that you would never see back in the day. So it's a fantastic time for women's football, radio, TV are involved.

And it's a really, really great time. And the Euros is here this summer. I'm fortunate enough to be working on it. So I'm really looking forward to it. Fantastic. Rachel, do you think that Jake Daniels coming out and the amount of attention that it's receiving is going to change things, not just in football, but in sports overall. Yeah, I really hope so.

I think, you know, I think he is a game changer. The fact that he has done this can create real change. And Leanne's shown it in the women's game. You know, if somebody's come out and received positive coverage, it does create that change. And as we've already said, the allies getting behind him, the amount of news coverage that is positive news coverage. You know, you've said that he's received a lot of coverage. He has, but it's been really positive. He's on the front pages of newspapers today, but the headlines are positive and people are really proud to see somebody come out and able to do that, particularly at such a young age.

So I think this is the opportunity for things to really drive forward. And I think Jake has really opened the door for other players, but also people to really get behind sport as an inclusive pastime, because sport has always been seen as something that is a little bit lagging behind when it comes to homophobia and our research has really shown that that's not the case and hopefully now people can really see it happening and hopefully Jake is accepted

and receives really positive coverage as he goes into next season. Well Dr Rachel Bullingham of the University of Gloucestershire and Leanne Sanderson, international football star. Thank you both very much indeed. Now, the W Series is the all-female international motor racing competition. It's underway. The second round takes place in Barcelona on Friday and it follows in the footsteps of Formula One. Sarah Moore grew up in a racing

family and she started competing from the age of eight. She drove in the Ginetta Junior Championship in 2007. And in 2009, she won the title, the first woman to win a mixed gender series. And she was awarded the British Racing Driver Club Rising Star status. She also made history as the first openly LGBTQ woman to stand on the podium on a Formula One weekend. And she joins me now. Sarah, for the uninitiated, what is the W Series? Tell us a bit about how it works.

So the W Series was, well, they had their first season back in 2019. It was created to promote females within motorsport and help try and push a female eventually and into formula one and which is what most of us have wanted for for so many years so yeah that's uh their ultimate goal is for one of one of the drivers that are have have been or are currently participating in the W Series 2 eventually competing Formula 1. And that's your goal, is it? My personal goal hasn't really ever been Formula 1. I mean, I would never say no because who wouldn't want to race in Formula 1?

But I have a bit more of an endurance style background. So I've come from a background of doing kind of 6-hour, 12-hour, 24-hour races in teams as opposed to individual races. But I think, you know, the thought of racing in Formula One, I don't think anyone would ever say no to. Now, for those of us who follow Formula One, a lot of it and a lot of the controversy is around the cars, the different types of cars and all the mechanics involved. The cars you're racing in are mechanically identical, is that right? Does that mean that it then is all about driver skill and tactics?

Yeah, exactly that. So all the cars are identical and we're restricted with what we can change on the car just to try and keep everything, as you say, a lot more similar so that it's more down to the driver and the driver's ability as opposed to how much you can change on the car. Now, you competed against men growing up. In fact, you beat them all when you won the Janetta title in 2009. Can you compete against men now? Does anything change as you get older? I mean, I just wonder, is it a bit like we've seen, for example, in horse racing, a sport where really men and women can compete equally? Yeah, so W Series, I believe, is the only series that is actually in a women-only series. So outside of the W Series, all other females will still compete against the males.

And how difficult is it for women in motorsport? Because I think there is a perception, and please feel free to blow me out of the water and tell me that it's rubbish, that it is a really male-dominated sport. I mean, you know, I know that there are people like Susie Wolfe, for example, who've done well and is now CEO of a Formula E team.

But I wonder how many women there are in the sport overall. And if you think that it deserves that slightly sort of macho, perhaps misogynistic image that it has sometimes. I think it's definitely still largely known as a male dominated sport. I think in the UK, I can't remember exactly. I don't know if it's 6% or 9% of the license holders in the UK are female. So it's still such a very, very small percentage of females in the UK that actually hold a race license. So although everything is going in the right direction, and the W Series has done a fantastic job of promoting females within the

sport, not only as drivers, I still think there's a lot of work to be done. So yeah, it is still at the moment, still known predominantly as a male dominated sport. So it does make it quite difficult for us to start off. And to us talking about starting off, of course, you came from a family of racing drivers. Do you think that that helped? Because perhaps, you know, a lot of other younger women out there might look at motorsports and perhaps think it's not for them because they don't see many women in it. Yes, definitely. I was very, very fortunate the way that I grew up. My dad used to race himself. I've got three brothers and a sister and I was kind of brought up in and around anything with

an engine. So for me, it was very easy, like you say, compared to most people that wouldn't have that. And what about finance? Is it harder to get sponsorship around the W Series? I mean, we've seen growing crowds at other women's sports. What's it like in motorsport? I think, to be honest, it is relatively even between whether you're a male or a female. Although the sport is still quite male dominated.

It depends or depends on kind of what businesses you're pitching to, I suppose. But I think as long as you're kind of going for the right ones, I think a lot more people now are more level headed than they were probably about 10, 15 years ago. So it's a lot easier than what it was back then. But it's still just difficult across the board for any sponsorship. Now, I don't know if you heard our previous item, but we were talking about Jake Daniels, the 17 year old Blackpool football club player who yesterday came out as gay um you were the first openly gay person to stand on a formula one podium tell me about that and how important it was for you yeah it's a very special moment

and one moment that i'll that i'll never forget for sure um i think i'm fortunate enough to to just be happy with who i am um and proud of of the person that I've become um you know I'm happily married now um and I wouldn't change anything for the world and I had a very easy coming out as people call it um but I think in terms of what I achieved that day I think of myself just as a racing driver and obviously I'm an ambassador for Racing Pride so anything that I can do you know in terms of supporting people I will do so to stand on that podium and I had some pretty cool pictures with the pride flag afterwards that was a pretty awesome day but I always say that I feel happier for the rest of the community than I do for myself because I'm happy with who I am so

anything that I can do to help anyone else is always a bonus. Do you see homophobia in motorsport? I got asked this the other day in terms of if I receive any kind of hate comments or anything like that I say that I probably do but I'm the kind of person that I don't think too much into it if I don't really tend to read any comments especially on Twitter don't I post on there but I don't read any comments I tend to just let things go over my head so I probably have received comments but it's something that I just don't let I suppose the reason I'm asking is because you know as you've said there is a there's a very small minority of of women in motorsports overall and yet you know, as you've said, there's a very small minority of women in motorsports overall. And yet, you know, you're the first openly gay person on a podium.

So perhaps it is a case that as a kind of a macho sport, a bit like football, it's much harder for men to come out. Yeah, definitely. I actually used to play football before I started taking the racing a lot more seriously. I mean, that was when I was a lot younger and before I even came out. I mean, I was in a straight relationship when I when I used to play football. But even playing football back then, I remember I used to get comments back then when I was in my teens. And then it was kind of weird that it all shaped out. And I eventually ended ended up coming out um when i'd moved on into motorsports tell me about barcelona what are you hoping for

this week um just a better weekend than last weekend in miami for me um i had a great weekend in miami it was a good um opening weekend of the championship. Just didn't quite get the results that I felt like I should have achieved. So yeah, going to Barcelona this weekend, I'm just hoping to get back into a top five position, hopefully bring home some silverware. But as I always say, the main thing is just to enjoy the racing. Sarah, very good luck in Barcelona and thanks very much indeed for joining us. Thank you. Now coming up we're going to have music from Kate Rossby and we're going to hear from the mother

whose campaign to change the law after is set to result in a new training scheme for all health and social care workers. It's going to be called the Oliver McGowan Programme in memory of her son who had autism and died in hospital aged just 18.

Do text Women's Hour on 84844 and on social media. It's at BBC Women's Hour. You can also email us through the website. Now, this morning, Ukraine has confirmed that hundreds of its fighters, trapped for more than two months in a steelworks, have been evacuated. The fighters belong to the Azov Regiment and they've been defending Mariupol, which has come under some of the fiercest attacks seen in the war in Ukraine. They retreated to the steelworks there in early March

and for weeks now have been eking out the very last of their munitions and supplies. Well, Sarah Rainsford is one of the BBC correspondents covering the war in Ukraine and she joins us now. Sarah, we were due to actually speak to some of the wives of the soldiers this morning on Woman's Hour. We got a WhatsApp message late last night saying they weren't able to speak to us because, of course, this evacuation operation was ongoing. What more can you tell us about the situation there at the moment?

Yeah, it seems that it's extremely sensitive. And that's why, for the moment, days, of course. Certainly, we know from official sources. So finally, the Ukrainians did make comments on this. President Zelensky himself has talked about it. And what it essentially seems to amount to is that there has been a deal done using the services of the UN and the Red Cross as well, which negotiated with the Russian side for a number, if not all, of the fighters at Azovstal to be allowed out. Now, we know that 53 seriously injured fighters have been taken out overnight to a place called Novoazovsk, which is in Russian-controlled territory in Ukraine. And we know that more than 200 others have been taken out to another Russian-controlled town. That in itself was pretty shocking for many people here to find out,

because the stipulation had been all along by the fighters at Azovstal that they must, if they are evacuated, they must be evacuated to Ukrainian-controlled territory. So the question is what happens to them now and how they're treated in Russian-controlled territory. And also the other big question, how many other additional fighters are left behind at the steel plant? Have they all agreed to go? At the moment, the official statement from the commander is that they have fulfilled their combat task. They are following orders. And they say essentially that, you know, through their fighting for 82 days there,

they had bought time for Ukrainian troops across the country. They'd held up the Russian advance. And now that the focus, now the priority now was to preserve lives so that no more people were killed. It does seem like it's a very sensitive operation. And I know that the women, the wives of many of those fighters there, some of them anyway, have been involved. You've spoken to some of them yourself. Two of them I know are in Paris at the moment.

They met the Pope last week and in fact they had plans to come to the UK. Have they been influential behind the scenes in trying to talk to the UN and to the Red Cross and to put this very delicate operation together? I mean, they've desperately been trying to make sure that people don't forget about their men, their husbands, their brothers, their relatives at Azovstal. Certainly there's been a big push by them. They've been, as you say, travelling the world, meeting even with the Pope and with others to try to get the message across that these men are Ukrainian heroes. And it's very much how they're seen here in this country. This is men from not only the Azov Battalion, these are Marines as well. There are other Ukrainian fighters, men and women, who've been holding back the Russian advance in Azovstal and also, of course, before that in Mariupol more broadly for so long. And yet they had been kind of chased into this area, a very large area, the sprawling steelworks there in Mariupol. But there was no way out. Their supplies were cut off. They could get no food, no medicine in.

And we'd seen videos, really dramatic videos, not only of the Russian bombardment of those steelworks, but also of the extreme injuries that many of those fighters had sustained. So a video that the Azov battalion put out at one point showed many men with amputations, with missing legs and arms, who had obviously been operated on inside those steelworks under extremely difficult conditions, of course. And as I say, medicines were running out, supplies were running out. It was very, very, it has been very, very tough. And all along, they'd said they wouldn't surrender. But this obviously, without using that word, this obviously is the end of the road in terms of defending Mariupol, which lies in ruins, of course, all around the steelworks and where Russian forces are now in control.

Sarah, you mentioned, of course, that there was surprise when they were being taken to Russian-controlled areas. Ukraine's deputy defence minister has said that the evacuees would be subject to an exchange procedure. Has there been anything agreed that we know of between Ukrainian and Russian officials? What's likely to happen to these men now? Yeah, we don't know if anything's been agreed. And I think that's why openly the wives and the relatives are not speaking. And in fact, the official statements are fairly short and limited. Because I think, as you say, it is a very sensitive operation.

These men are now in Russian-controlled territory. But you would assume, and it is just an assumption, that if the UN and if the Red Cross were involved and those men have been taken to Russian-controlled territory, there is some kind of agreement in place that they will be treated OK and that ultimately that they would be swapped, which is what the defence minister is saying is the aim. They would be ultimately swapped for Russian prisoners here in Ukraine. So I think, you know, that is still a work in progress as far as I understand. There's no official word on it, but it would be the intention.

But the concern of the wives in particular that I've been speaking to here over the last weeks has been that particularly the men from the Azov Battalion would face problems, let's say, in Russia. Because don't forget, President Putin framed this war at the very beginning as a denazification of Ukraine. And he and the state media have always presented the Azov Battalion as the fascist forces of Ukraine. It's a very, very strong line in the propaganda, basically, inside Russia. And so the fear was of the

relatives of the Azov battalion that their men would not be spared were they taken captive. So again, as I say, extremely worrying times for their relatives. And in fact, I just spoke before coming on air today, I just spoke to a woman that I had met a couple of weeks ago and I called her to find out if she had any news and she was crying and she told me that two days ago her husband had sadly been killed. Sarah Rainsford, thank you very much indeed for that detailed reporting. Thank you.

Now, we have had a huge response to the question about whether or not you can be yourself in sport following Jake Daniels coming out as gay as a footballer we've had plenty of tweets about this one says I have every admiration for the young footballer who's come out but I'm extremely pessimistic that he won't be subject to homophobic attacks while the majority of football crowds are decent people, there's always a thuggish minority who make their presence felt. And on the subject of women in sport,

we've got one here from Anthea who says, women are seen as inferior in sport, so coming out as gay makes them seem stronger and better. That's her opinion. The converse applies to men. It's outright blatant sexism, she says. Nothing less. And another one here says,

it's a sad reflection of society that people are less accepting of gay men than they are of gay women. I genuinely don't think people care if female footballers are gay, but the thought of a gay male footballer is somehow unacceptable. There is an education piece

that starts at grassroots level. Well, do keep your thoughts coming in on that. It's really interesting to try and get to the bottom of that. Now, a woman whose son's death was described as avoidable after he was given antipsychotic drugs, despite warnings from him and his family, is on the brink of achieving her goal that all health and social care staff in England must, by law, undergo mandatory training in autism and learning disability awareness. The result of her relentless campaigning in her son's memory was included in the Queen's speech last week. That woman is Paula McGowan and her son Oliver McGowan was autistic and had epilepsy and a learning disability.

Back in 2016, he was admitted to hospital with a seizure. He died after 17 days in intensive care, aged just 18. The new programme will bear Oliver's name. Well, Paula joins me now on the line. Paula, welcome and thank you very much for joining us. I can also speak to Alexis Quinn. She is an autistic activist and was one of the people involved in creating the pilot scheme for the health and social care workers as part of her role with BUILD, the British Institute for Learning Disabilities. Paula, tell us about Oliver. What was he like?

Oh my goodness, where do you begin? He was just our world, our life. He was just beautiful, really handsome, always happy, always smiling, always full of fun. He had the most amazing can-do attitude. He played for England's FA Development football squads. He was a registered athlete, ranked third best in the UK for track 200 metres. In fact, he was training to become a Paralympian. You know, he was always friendly and kind to everybody that knew him, especially people who were less able than himself. He just brought so much fun and happiness to our lives and always taught us how to see the best in everything. He was known for always challenging

people's biases and prejudices. We just loved him. He was the glue that kept our family together. Did his autism and learning disabilities and his epilepsy affect him day to day? Because it sounds like he achieved a huge amount. What we saw with Oliver was his autism affected him in anxiety. So he would become anxious at different situations. But he just seemed to get on with life and excel through life. But that's because people were understanding of Oliver and, you know, the college staff and ourselves. We were making reasonable adjustments for him, making sure his environment and his lifestyle

was suited to his needs. I know it's difficult, but can you tell me, medically speaking, what happened to him? To be honest, you know, it was awful. So as I've just explained, Oliver had a good life, but as a result of meningitis as a baby, Oliver had what was known as a stroke. So this is how his epilepsy came about

and his mild learning disability. He also had mild cerebral palsy. So he had these focal seizures, which he remains conscious and they were known throughout his whole life. But in that last year of his life, he was taken into hospital having, like I've just said, these seizures. And quite rightly, you know, because he was fully conscious life he was taken into hospital having like I've just said these seizures and quite rightly you know because he was fully conscious he was scared and he was frightened and staff didn't really understand that his behaviours were very much his autistic behaviours and for the first time in his life he was given an antidepressant medication but you know remember I've just explained to you about Oliver and how this wonderful zest for life Oliver wasn't depressed and we went home because we're just a normal family you know just like everybody else and the change in Oliver's mood because of these medications

and the increase of seizures was just phenomenal so much so he had to return back into the hospital because of this increase in seizures but again the clinicians weren't understanding Oliver's normal autistic behavior so for Oliver he was a gamer he was a blogger he was a typical teenager and he talked about his um his gaming constantly and probably more so because he was scared and they gave him anti-psychotic medication but Oliver wasn't mentally ill or psychotic he was autistic and the change in Oliver was just it was the most frightening thing I've ever seen he's hallucinating he's biting his skin he's having up to 30 seizures a day which we'd never seen happen before he would normally have two a fortnight um and because of these behaviors and the changes in

oliver he was actually placed under a section two or assessment of his mental health again we were terrified now he was transferred to a specialist unit because of this and immediately they saw and that oliver wasn't mentally ill and they you know they said it was um down to the fact that um the environment was wrong for him the medications were wrong and they you know they said it was down to the fact that the environment was wrong for him the medications were wrong and they removed all of those medications so much so Oliver returned back to his normal self and he comes home and life resumes as normal. Those doctors in that unit had written a letter saying that Oliver was allergic, intolerant of all forms of antipsychotic medication. But a few months later, sorry again, he had seizures again

and he was admitted back to another hospital. And we made it clear to all of the doctors treating Oliver that he was sensitive, intolerant, allergic to all forms of antipsychotic medication. It was well documented. But one night, Oliver was indeed given this medication. So even though you told the doctors and in fact, he had informed them as well. So Oliver had made what's known as an advanced verbal decision. He told doctors on arrival that he was not to be given any form of antipsychotic medication because it made his eyes go funny and

his brain wasn't the same as it normally was and doctors said they were listening to him and they wrote all over his medical drug charts and his notes that that would not happen what I didn't mention was Oliver was intubated so put on life support to facilitate an MRI scan and we were met by another doctor who talked about antipsychotic medication when Oliver was coming out of sedation in case he was you know frightened we made it clear about Oliver's advanced verbal decision and you know we told her that she absolutely had no you know she couldn't give those medications but she did she gave those medications that night and over the coming days Oliver's temperature rose to 42 degrees and we kept saying something's

different with Oliver he looks different his face is puffy and they kept saying he's fine stop worrying we'll tell you if you need to worry and then one day they told us they were taking Golofa for an emergency MRI scan of his brain because one of his pupils wasn't reacting and when they came back you know my husband said I'm not going to worry so long as we don't get taken into that side room. When they came back we were pushed into that side room almost and the doctor said his brain was so badly swollen it's bulging up the base of his skull. If we don't operate now he's going to die and they did operate but over the coming days they told us that um oliver's

brain was so badly damaged he'd have no speech he would have um he would have no way of communication he wouldn't be able to eat he would be in a vegetative state well beyond that um there'd be no more playing football that sense of humor and we we were asked to turn Oliver's life support machines off. And Oliver died on Armistice Day, poignant for us because we're a military family. Paula, after that appalling suffering and trauma of losing your son, what made you start thinking about campaigning in his memory? It was only, you know, I'm a teacher and i teach children with additional needs and i honestly believe that our clinicians understood um all autism and learner disability and how they

affected people and it was only during oliver's inquest that one of the clinicians was asked um why didn't you make reasonable adjustments for oliver And the response was, I've heard of it, but I don't really know what it is. And it was like a sledgehammer because I'd honestly believed they knew more than I did. And I thought, hang on a minute. That's really wrong for patient safety, patients like Oliver, he's dead. But it's also wrong for our clinicians because, you know, it's unfair on them to be expecting them how to understand um neurodiversity how to make reasonable adjustments the laws all of these things you know

i couldn't suddenly go and fix a car because i've not got the skills to do so why are they expecting our clinicians to support neurodiverse people if they haven't been given the skills to do it. Alexis I'd like to bring you in here because you have been part of developing the pilot programme can you tell us what's involved and what what social care workers and health workers are going to be taught? Yeah absolutely I mean Paula's been really clear from the start that you know the training must be co-produced. So that means that autistic people and people with learning disabilities weren't sort of brought to the table

once people have made decisions about what would be included, but that actually would be included right from the start. So what it involved was lots of people with learning disabilities and autistic people getting together with, so in my case, the British Institute of Learning Disabilities, and thinking about what doctors, nurses, receptionists, cleaners needed to know to

make sure that neurodiverse people were treated, not just equally, but actually fairly. And so it covers everything from, you know, what is autism? What is a learning disability? You know, what communication differences do we have? How can those be accommodated? How can our sort of needs be met from a sensory perspective? Lots of bits like that, really. And Paula, you have now seen this bill there in black and white in the Queen's speech. What what did that feel like? It was a relief, a real relief, because, you know, we talk, you know, there's lots of training out there. But, you know, quite often it's a tick box

exercise. It hasn't got real teeth or real funding. But, you know, now Oliver's training has gone into legislation, into law. It means now that staff, commissioners ceos will now have to free up their staff in a meaningful way so that they can participate in oliver's training um it will have the correct funding but ultimately you know what we've not said is it will save lives it's not just going to make health and social care outcomes better for neurodiverse people the learning disability mortality review tells us that we are losing 1200 learning disabled people every single year due to avoidable deaths due to inequality of their health care needs we've not even addressed the autistic deaths preventable deaths so we do know that oliver's training will save lives in one way or another um we've still got a long way to go yet, Andrea.

We've got the code of practice to be produced. And again, that will be done alongside our autistic communities and our learning disabled communities. Alexis, I know that you would like to see this extended to other service areas, for example, the police, the judiciary. Tell me a little bit about why that is. Well, I mean, I think Paula's spoken really sort of importantly about death today, but it's also, you know, a crude trauma. You know, every time that you go to a receptionist and they don't understand what you're saying or why you're not making eye contact, perhaps they call the police because in a railway station, you know, you're behaving in a way that's autistic, but which people might interpret as, you know, bizarre.

Maybe they think you're going to jump on a track or I don't know, something like that. First responders, which are usually the police, you know, come, they sort of, you can be arrested, you know. So all of these things, all of these traumas that autistic people experience in different settings accrue. Certainly in our schools, you know, you can see that teachers and learning support assistants, again, need this support and need this training. I'm afraid that an hour in university just isn't sufficient if we're going to truly understand how to support autistic people's sensory needs.

So, yes, it needs to be cross-sector, but I think, importantly, we mustn't forget, you know, people like receptionists and so on. Alexis Quinn and Paula McGowan, thank you both very much indeed. Now we have a statement from the Trust, which says that we continue to extend our sincere condolences to Oliver's family following his death.

We remain deeply committed to working to improve our services for patients with autism and other neurodiverse needs. We're absolutely committed to providing responsive, tailored and high-quality care for all our patients and embedding the Oliver McGowan training programme now that it's been passed into law.

Now, Kate Rusby is one of the UK's leading folk singers and she's released an album every 10 years to celebrate each decade that she's spent in the music business, asking different musicians to join her to create new versions of some of her well-loved songs. Her latest is called 30 Happy Returns, where she realised her dream of recording with Ladysmith Black Mambasso. Well, Kate joins me now.

Kate, this album celebrates 30 years of music making. You made one at 10 and another one at 20. Did you plan to make these landmark decade albums? I mean, I know you've made a lot of other ones along the way, but I wonder if they just evolved. Yes, they kind of did. I mean, at 10 years, you know, it was a landmark because not everybody has longevity

in the music scene obviously in the music business so even at 10 years I was going this is amazing I can't believe we've achieved 10 years because we we also set up our own record company all those years ago so which has become a family business my sister is now at the helm of that and my dad used to run it and my mum used to do the accounts. So so so 10 years of running all that and the gigs and everything was a real achievement. So when 20 years came along, we thought, well, we'd better celebrate this as well, because that is absolutely amazing. And now 30 has just come so quickly. I can't believe it. Yeah, absolutely. Collaborating with Lady Smith, Black Masa as we heard there bringing a new sound

to a traditional May Day song how did that work? Did you write the parts for them? I know it was all recorded in lockdown that one wasn't it? Yes well they recorded their parts over in South Africa and it was kind of touch and go

whether they could or not get in the studio and also here cases started to rise again we actually recorded it last September uh but but ages ago I first first first recorded that song and um when I was in the studio doing my vocals for it originally like 10 years ago or something I heard them in my head so all these years I've been hearing them in my head whenever we've sung it so when finally we got the opportunity to work with them, that was just unbelievable. But we sent

some ideas to them. Obviously, we sent the track, but with, you know, obviously with a bit of guidance, but then also, you know, that thing of just be you, do what you do, because I just love it. And that is why we've asked you so he has a bit of guidance but go with what you feel is right for you really yeah now I know that Katie Tunstall and Richard Hawley feature on the album too I think he was the only person you were able to record with in person are there any other artists that you'd really like to collaborate with but that you haven't yet well on my dream list is Dolly Part. I've been a fan of hers ever since I was really, really young. And I have actually been on a song with her of somebody else's by a fantastic Irish singer called Maura O'Connell.

And she had Dolly Parton guest in on there and also me. So I've sung with her at some, but we've never actually met, you know. So I would absolutely love to do a song with Dolly Parton one day. Fingers crossed. Now, you've also written a song called My Young Man by your grandmother. Tell us about that song and why you wrote it. Well, I was I was actually sat in a traffic jam on the M1 quite a few years ago now when when I wrote it. And all of a sudden I started thinking about her and how she nursed my granddad, Ernest, on my mum's side through emphysema because he was a minor, as was my uncle and lots of them on my mum's side of the family. And I started thinking about what an amazing woman she was.

You know, not only was she still running the house, she was going out to work. She was looking after their children but she also had to nurse him towards the end and to to lose that person in your life who you absolutely adore and watch them slowly slip away while still holding everything else together I just all these words and the tune just kind of formed in my head so that's where that really came from she was a brilliant woman she was a barmaid, actually, until she was really quite old. She was hilarious. She was brilliant. I know you usually sing this accompanied by a brass band

to reflect that mining tradition. But would you sing a little bit of it for us now? I can. Do you want a little verse of it? That would be lovely. Yes, right. I've actually got my husband, Damien, sat here with his guitar, so he might just plonk along. Fantastic. Thank you. Oh, that's lovely. Yes, right. I've actually got my husband, Damien, sat here with his guitar, so he might just plonk along. Fantastic. Thank you. Oh, that's lovely. A lovely tribute to your grandmother.

You did come from a very musical family. What was it like growing up? It was absolutely amazing. When I look back now, I had such a blessed childhood. I mean, we had no money, you know, but there was instruments, there was music. My dad was a sound engineer for quite a few years. So he worked at a lot of folk festivals. So we were taken along to lots of festivals throughout. But both my parents sing and play. That's how they met. The story goes, my mum was in a band and my dad had a banjo and a van and it was a match made in heaven.

And all these years later, they're still together. So they used to teach us songs. You know, we had songs as bedtime stories um whenever there was parties in the house people would turn up with um instruments you know and come and sing and also my my dad repaired brass instruments for quite a few years he used to repair for uh bands like grimethought colliery band and places like that and so you know we'd have people turn up on the doorstep. Could you give this tuba to your dad last? You know, it was a bit like that. And so when he used to take the instruments back to band practice, so I would always try and get to go with him, you know, to sit and listen. So again, you know, I've been surrounded by brass music even as well.

It was a really lovely childhood. And the fact that you actually got your family together with your own recording business, has that given you more freedom, do you think? Or has there been a certain responsibility that you're effectively responsible for other people's livelihoods? Well, both really, yes. But it's given me absolute freedom. We've been able to make albums whenever we want to um in the way that we want to work with the musicians that we want to and the producers that we want to and and and usually musicians just don't have that that that freedom or that luxury at all but one of the best things about it is that I actually own all my own music from the very get-go so uh and and I don't know if it's it's kind of because,

you know, coming from Yorkshire, we don't trust many people, especially with our money. So, but it's been an absolute lovely journey, really, housing, to have built our little cottage industry with my family, something really special

because they gave me the music in the first place. So, it's lovely. I've hardly any time left, but just because you've had such longevity in this business 30 years on, is there any advice you'd give to your younger self? Oh, to my younger self? I would say to myself,

I know that you're very lovely and very kind, but don't suffer fools. Get rid of them sooner is what I would say. Brilliant advice. Kate Rossby, thank you very much. And Kate's live on tour as we speak with gigs coming up in Darlington, Newark, Portsmouth, Truro and many other places. And that's all we've got time for today.

Thank you very much for listening. Goodbye. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. Hi there. I'm just popping up to let you know about another Radio 4 podcast that you may be interested in. Especially if, like me, your social media feeds are constantly bombarding you with adverts that are hyping up the latest wonder products, promising you the world. You know the

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