Woman's Hour - Kate Shortman & Izzy Thorpe, Dame Katherine Grainger, Nicola Adams, Anna Kessel, Frankie Miren, Laura Middleton-Hughes.

Episode Date: July 23, 2021

The Opening Ceremony of the Tokyo Olympics starts today and Team GB are taking more women athletes than men for the first time in 125 years. Of the 376 athletes selected, 201 are female. So could this be the best ever Games for women? We talk to Dame Katherine Grainger, Britain's joint most decorated female Olympian and Chair of UK Sport; double Olympic boxing champion Nicola Adams and Anna Kessel, Women's Sport Editor at The Telegraph.Staying with the games, we’ll hear from artistic swimmers Kate Shortman and Izzy Thorpe who are representing Great Britain at Tokyo 2020. The pair have spoken out about receiving trolling and bullying for their professional synchronised swimmer physiques, describing themselves as having "big shoulders, small boobs and small bums". We talk to the writer and activist Frankie Miren’s about her novel "The Service" in which she draws on her personal experience to look at the vulnerabilities and dangers of life as a sex worker. One listener has contacted us about a new support group they've set up based on her own experiences of abuse within a religious organisation. She tells us about “Escape-escapee” which she says will help people who want to leave what she calls "high control groups". She was abused by a member of the Jehovah's Witnesses and her case went to the High Court six years ago. Another listener Laura Middleton-Hughes got in touch about her nipple tattoos. She tells Anita why she chose to have 3D areoles tattooed on her breasts after reconstructive surgery, Presenter: Anita Rani Producer: Lisa Jenkinson Studio Engineer: John Boland

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Anita Rani and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Good morning, we made it to another Friday. It begins today, after being cancelled due to Covid and the various high-up people being sacked due to controversial comments, it's finally happening. The 2020 Tokyo Olympics begins today. Are you excited for a summer of sports?

Who have you got your eye on? Well, it's a big first for Team GB this year. We are taking more female athletes than ever before. Of the 376 strong team, 201 are women. In Paris 1900, Team GB took one woman. We have come a long way since then, and it's a moment to celebrate. I'm delighted to say Nicola Adams and Dame Catherine Granger will be here to talk to us about it.

And I cannot wait for the opening ceremony. Who doesn't love a big show and a massive firework display? So we're getting excited about the Olympics, and we are celebrating women in sport this morning. And I'd love to hear about the female sporting moments that stand out in your memories or mean something to you. They can be famous or your own personal achievements. I know we have a lot of talent listening.

Text us 84844. The text will be charged at your standard message rate. You can contact us via social media. It's at BBC Woman's Hour. Or if you fancy writing us an email, go to our website. We also hear from a woman who was abused within her religious organisation this morning and has since set up a website to help people who might need support in what she calls high-control groups.

We'll be talking to sex worker activist and journalist Frankie Mirren about her debut novel and nipple tattoos. Well, it is Woman's Hour. But first, at noon today, UK time, the opening ceremony of the Tokyo Olympics 2020 will begin, a year later than planned thanks to COVID. Team GB are taking more women athletes than men for the first time in 125 years. As I said, 201 are female. Women tipped to medal include US gymnast Simone Biles, Indian boxer Mary Combe and of course our very own superstar sprinter Dina Asher-Smith. So could this be the best ever Games for women? Well, joining me to discuss this, we have quite a gang. Dame Catherine Granger, Britain's joint most decorated female Olympian

and now chair of UK Sport, which is the body that invests in Olympic and Paralympic sport. Double Olympic boxing champion Nicola Adams, Yorkshire's finest. Had to get that in there. And Anna Kessel, women's sport editor at The Telegraph. A very good morning to all of you. Anna, let me come to you first. I understand you are unofficially calling this the women's games. Yes, we've waited long enough, 125 years. We weren't allowed to partake in the first one. Very hard for inclusion over the next century and a quarter to be able to even be on the start line. And finally, not only are we more numerous in terms of numbers of women for the GB team and a near equal split globally in terms of women and men competitors but women are the stars of this Games. Simone

Biles is very much the face of the Games globally, you've got Naomi Osaka, total rock star, the US women's football team, Megan Rapinoe, Alex Morgan, and then Dina Asher-Smith and all the wonderful stars of the women's team. So really, they are front and centre of this Games in a way that we've never, ever seen before. Yeah, it's very exciting. Catherine, I've got to ask, you've been chair of UK Sports since 2017.

Can you claim credit for all of this? Absolutely not. I have no chance of my claiming credit for that one um but i think i mean i think i absolutely share anna's excitement about what we're about to see over the next couple of weeks and the huge you know we should really celebrate the changes that's happened over the last century and where women are now in the games um but for team gb a massive change happened when we had national lottery funding came in and suddenly the investment decisions going into sport were basically gender blind. It was all about, you know, can we give sports to cycling or swimming or sailing or gymnastics or diving or rather than men's or women's events?

And it meant that all the all the sports have sort of equalized and stabilized. And the drive from the International Olympic Committee to also have gender equality and equity across all the sports has made a huge shift in numbers and how much we see. And to Anna's point, I think we're going to see some incredible performances, but also some really brilliant outspoken women who talk about pretty important issues as well as on their own platform for being fantastic athletes. So I think we're in for an absolute treat. And all the young women watching who are going to be inspired a generation inspired. Well this is it I think all I mean even athletes we speak to now have been inspired by their heroes and role models of you know recent years and it's really exciting I think athletes often don't recognize and realize at the moment of their competition the effect and impact they have and it's in this sort of days months weeks

years later you realize the impact that a performance can have on so many people's lives and really, really positive, uplifting stuff that makes anything feel possible. And, you know, right now, more than any other year, we probably need that in the world right now. Absolutely. Talking of inspiring heroes, let's bring in Nicola. In 2012, you won Great Britain's first ever female boxing gold. We're all cheering. Give us a sense of what Team G will be feeling as the Games officially open today, Nicola.

Yeah, they'll be nervous. They'll be excited. There'll be a lot of feelings running through the athletes' veins. They'll be wanting to win. I guess there'll be a lot of pressure lifted as well. They're finally there. They're finally at the opening ceremony and they, excuse the pun,

the games are about to begin. And obviously there's a lot of camaraderie amongst the whole of the team, but do you think the women will really be bonding? Do you think it will make a difference that there's a massive girl gang of athletes out there? Yeah, definitely. I think it's going to be really inspiring

for all the other athletes as well to see so many women performing at the Olympics. Is it the first time that there's been more women than men? Yeah, yeah, this is it. It's a landmark year. Wow, awesome, awesome. Hey, that's what we like to see. More women, yeah, more women getting involved in sport

and hopefully that will inspire the next generation as well. Catherine, you're Britain's most successful female rower, the only female athlete in any sport to gain medals in four consecutive Olympic Games. Absolutely incredible. But this is going to be your first Olympics since retirement from rowing that you'll be watching instead of taking part. Is going to be strange i know i'm even older than that anita it's five consecutive oh sorry this is like well no not at all it's more that you know it's

been over 20 years it's i've been part of it and i've put on the kit and i've got to march and i've got to celebrate with the rest of the team and like nicholas saying that incredible camaraderie you do all feel together you're part of this amazing sort of team and gang and it's quite yeah it's weird it's quite sad in a way not being part of it again in the same way but I get to be an excited giddy fan like the rest of us around the country right now and you know setting alarms for all times of day and night to try and catch up with the superstars of tomorrow so it's it's a very different experience going through watching it but I you know I think what's brilliant is we have had the most incredible time through London 2012 Rio 2016 but every athlete I speak to every sort of up-and-coming new star is thrilled to have their own ambitions and their own they want to

light up the the world as well and I think we've got just a wonderful sort of passing the baton down the line of looking for new new big names of, which is just always exciting at this time of year. And you're not only going to be watching. Both you, Catherine and Nicola, are part of the BBC's commentary team this time around. Excited about that? Yeah, I am. In fact, I'm leaving our chat now to go on to the opening ceremony, which is about to begin because Tokyo is eight hours ahead of us.

So you've got to sort of think it's coming to their evening time now. And, you know, for all of us who have been there, the opening ceremony is, you know, the games begin when that cauldron is lit. And it will be very different without the tens of thousands of crowds we always get used to and get excited by. But it's still a massive symbolic moment when it all begins after a five year wait. So it's brilliant. It's brilliant to be joining the commentary. It's brilliant to join chatting about all these moments we're out to see and hopefully, as you said, keep inspiring a whole new generation of folk. Well, brilliant. Enjoy. We will be watching you, Catherine. I know you've got to go, so I will let you go. Yet Catherine is part of the BBC's opening Sem

Romani coverage, which starts at 11.20 on BBC One this morning. Thank you so much for joining us. Nicola, let's come back to you. Now, for those of us who can only dream about it, take us back a bit. What is it like when you've trained for something your entire life to then go on and win gold? It's an unbelievable moment. You just think back to, well, I thought back to

all the hard times, the ups and the downs while I was training, the injuries and wondering if I'll ever be able to box again. And then you stand on top of the podium and the gold medals put around your neck and you're like, yes, this was all for this one moment. Incredible. The hard work, four years of training, five years this time for the Olympians this cycle. You just put everything into that one moment. And when it all comes together, it's just like a dream come true. And it is wonderful. It is wonderful to watch. Anna, let's talk about who some of these amazing athletes are that we should be looking out for in Tokyo.

We've got cyclist Laura Kenny, taekwondo fighter Jade Jones, rower Helen Glover, equestrian star Charlotte Dujardin, all aiming to become the first British female Olympians to win gold medals at least three separate Summer Olympic Games. Who do you tip? Oh, God. Well, Jade Jones has got the first opportunity in terms of chronology and I wouldn't bet her against her with her famous head kicker shot

but don't forget Sky Brown as well, Britain's youngest ever Summer Olympian only 13 years old going into skateboarding and an amazing competitor She's incredible, 13 years old and I've seen her on a skateboard Unbelievable, just imagine the confidence that young girl must have She's incredible, 13 years old, and I've seen her on a skateboard. Unbelievable. Just imagine the confidence that young girl must have, or even the nerves, I don't know. Absolutely, the nerves. I mean, if you think back this time last year,

she actually was involved in a crash where she almost died. She came back this year and nailed her first competition. I mean, she is absolutely fearless, and she wants to compete in the surfing as well as skateboarding at the next Olympic Games. She's a real superstar in the making. Yeah, I mean, yeah. And again, going to inspire lots of young women.

So Nicola, who are the women boxers we should be looking out for this time? Lauren Price. She's been winning everything recently for the last two years ranked number one I can't see her not getting a medal at the Games this time

and also Caroline Dubois exceptional junior she went to the Junior Olympics got a gold there now she's going on to the Senior Olympics and I expect her to get a gold as well she's only 20-21 years old but she's boxing way beyond her She's going on to the Senior Olympics. And I expect her to get a gold as well.

She's only, I think, 20, 21 years old, but she's boxing way beyond her years. Her skill level and her intelligence in the ring is exceptional. Do you think it's going to be quite a strange experience this year, isn't it, Nicola, that the athletes have to quarantine in hotels, no spectators? Do you think it will affect their performance? I think for the boxers, I don't think it will be any difference. We're used to fighting in a lot smaller crowds, a lot smaller venues.

So there not being a crowd there there I don't think will do anything to the to the to the boxers mentality of how it will affect their performances I mean if I was there you've waited five years to get into the Olympics there being a crowd there or not would not affect whether I'm gonna win I'm still gonna be going out there to medals. And I'm sure not just the boxers, but every athlete will have the same mentality as well. And, you know, in boxing, who are the ones to watch? Who are the opponents, do you think? Who are the countries that are bringing someone who's going to be very hard to beat? Oh, Cuba always has really, really good talent. There's a few boxers from the Netherlands as well that are very good.

Russia always comes with a very strong squad. But I feel like the GB team has done really well. I watched and commentated on the qualifiers that they had and everybody is just, their boxing is so well. I just can't wait to see them because I know we're bringing home some gold medals. I just know, I can feel it. Yeah, we are are with you we're all feeling the same way and and talking about commentating so you're going to be part of the commentating team you're commentating on female

boxing and male boxing as well yeah yeah I'm super excited I always I'm always following the boxing so I follow the men's and the women's boxing so So it would be good to be able to commentate on that and then also see them hopefully get those gold medals. I don't know how I'm going to be able to contain my excitement, though. I'm going to be very excited. Don't. Don't contain it. When we watch commentators get excited, it's infectious. So, you know, go for it, is what I say.

And as some sports have started already, of course, the British women's football team beat Chile 2-0 on Wednesday with Manchester City striker Ellen White scoring both goals. So how's Team GB looking so far? Well, really positive. You've got to put in the context as well. You know, a lot of people say, oh, why would football be at the Olympics? They've already got World Cups, butic football for women it has a completely different history for women it's really important it's right up with their with the world cups so for the women's team to be there is very significant and don't forget that they only got to go for the first time in 2012 and they didn't get to go to rio so this is only the second time that we're seeing a GB women's team. They famously didn't have any warm-up matches due to COVID issues

versus, you know, America, who had dozens. So they are at a bit of a disadvantage. Having said that, 11 of the squad are from Manchester City. So I think they're gelling well and they know each other well enough to be able to combine and hopefully they'll do well. And, Anna, there have been some controversies to do with female athletes around the game. Helen Glover will become the first British row to compete in the Games

after having children. What are some of the issues around this that have been thrown up? Yes, I mean, it's wonderful that we've got to this point where women are equal to men in terms of numbers or thereabouts. But the Olympics is still very blind around gender equality in its more nuanced form. You know, the IOC got in a terrible flap about whether mothers could bring their babies to Tokyo. Initially, they said no. And we saw the story of Naomi Folkard, the British archer who was breastfeeding her young baby, was told that essentially there would be no way she could bring the baby to Tokyo and she started having to

stockpile 80 bags of breast milk. Anyone who's ever expressed knows just how hard that is. 80 bags? 80! She sent us a picture of her freezer. I mean, just to have to do that on top of preparing for one of the most the well arguably the most challenging ever olympic games just adds an extra burden on mothers which is so unfair and as catherine said you know what's so special about some of these women competing at tokyo is not only they're phenomenal athletes but they're using their platform to talk about the issues that women are facing and alice Alison Felix, who's spoken repeatedly about motherhood issues, has actually set aside a childcare fund for women who were not allowed to bring their children to Tokyo

to help pay for the childcare back home, which is just unheard of and brilliant. Yeah, right. A lot of the women are speaking out about various issues. Let's celebrate Alison Dearing, first black woman to be part of the Team GB swimming team, but an outcry when the Olympic swimming organisation said that a swimming cap designed for black hair couldn't be used at the Games. Yeah, because in their words, it was not a natural shape of the head. And how offensive and how blind is that to the world that we live in? And ridiculous considering the success of black swimmers, particularly at Rio, you know, where we had these incredible breakthroughs.

They have now been embarrassed into a bit of a U-turn several weeks on from this story breaking. But it was so frustrating that it happened in the first place. And it follows this enormous and deeply troubling trend of policing what women can and can't wear, whether it's that they can't wear hijab or modest clothing to compete, or whether they have to wear less clothing, in the example of the Norwegian handball team, that were told they couldn't wear shorts and had to wear these tiny bikini briefs to compete,

and would otherwise be fined or face potential disqualification just over a pair of shorts. Well, people can't, I mean, I'm still trying to get my head around that story. They were fined for not wearing bikini briefs. Essentially, this welcome to sport, right? This sport is a world where in gymnastics, for example, they measure the centimetres between your buttocks and your leotard. It's just unbelievable. And we have to move past this.

We have to make sport a place that is welcome for all women. And we have to stop obsessing over what they wear. So long as it's safe and they can perform in it, nobody else should be judging on it. Yeah, obsessing over what they wear and the shapes of their bodies. I'm going to bring in another couple of guests here because they illustrate what we're talking about perfectly. Artistic swimmers Kate Shortman and Izzy Thorpe are representing GB at the Tokyo Olympics.

They've been very vocal about body shaming comments they've received online. Now, they've trained for 10 years and spent 40 hours a week in the pool together, mostly underwater, all working to this moment. And they join us now from Tokyo. Kate, Izzy, you're just out of the pool how is it how's it all going yeah we're just fresh out the pool but yeah no it's amazing um we're loving every second of it obviously as you said it's what we've been working for for like over a decade together so yeah yeah yeah really exciting and the atmosphere here is amazing we're just in a holding camp at the moment with a lot of other Team GB athletes.

And it's just amazing, just in the environment with everyone and the buzz is really good. Yeah, give us a sense of that because you're there, we're here. What's it like? Yeah, so it's actually, yeah, so we've gone out to a holding camp, which is about a week, like training camp, ahead of flying to the real venue obviously because of the kobe restrictions um but yeah no it's amazing there's so many different sports here

that we've never really had a chance to meet before um because i think aquatics obviously we're in an aquatic discipline so we kind of stick together with the swimmers divers um and water polo but yeah there's so many different people here. Yeah, it's really nice to see some new faces or just people that we've never really seen or seen on social media or people we've looked up to for a really long time as well. And just being able to see them is amazing.

Amazing, amazing. Now, both of you brilliantly have spoken out recently about body shaming that you've received from trolls and bullies. What have people said to you? I think that in the past, obviously, we've kind of got comments about shoulders being quite large, especially with swimming, obviously, naturally, because in the sport, it makes your shoulders bigger. And then also with the athletic physique, obviously getting muscles and flat chested or flat bum

and I think a lot of social trends at the moment is to be more curvy so I think a lot of people have kind of said to us you know like oh your shoulders are too big or you haven't got a bum or just you know really silly comments that have just made us obviously feel a bit insecure about our bodies but I think over the years we've overcome that because we've had each other and a really good environment in our sport to be able to like give us confidence in our bodies and I think that we're just trying to get that message out across to everyone else to try and encourage everyone to have positivity around surrounding body image and not this negative thing surrounding it. Did it really did it impact you both did it really affect your confidence? I think yeah definitely in the past it it probably did change our confidence a little bit just

because you know when you're training for something so hard as well like we train 40 hours a week and we don't do it for how we look but it's you know it's a side it's the side effect of how much you train so when you're putting in all that dedication and time for people to just say you know or you look a certain way it's like it's actually really heartbreaking um but yeah I think now we're just we're happy and we're confident and also I think leading back from from what we said earlier there's so many people here in the holding camp that have those muscular physiques you know know, like the athletics and different, you know, different sports that all are a bit more muscular than girls. So, yeah, it's nice to see and be in that environment.

Well, I've seen photographs of the two of you and you are outstanding. Absolutely outstanding. You're so athletic, strong, powerful. You are real-life superheroes, the two of you. And you are going to inspire a generation. That's what we're talking about. And the empowerment message young women will get from the two of you.

And you've campaigned about this, haven't you? Because you took part in a photo shoot. Tell me about that. Yeah, we took part in a photo shoot with Blue Bella. So the campaign was Strong is Beautiful. So like we said said it's trying to promote the being strong being athletic having a athletic physique is is beautiful and it shouldn't be you know spoken about in such a negative way and we're trying yeah just promote

it through that i think was a really good way for us to get that message out there yeah they said that um like 64 of girls drop out of sport at the age of 14, 15. So obviously around puberty, you're getting a bit more self-conscious. And yeah, something like 80% of those said it was to do with self-esteem. And yeah, I just think for us, we had to kind of almost do something and speak out in a way that, you know, it's such a, sport is such a good thing for you you know physically and mentally for us it's completely shaped our lives like we are the people we are today because of

sport um and yeah I just think it's such a shame that girls should be you know like it should be just made to feel like that and have to you know give up just because of an insecurity especially when you're training training for something so hard and really being attentive to your physicality. And yeah, I mean, you're brilliant role models. I'm going to bring Nicola Adams in here. These girls are remarkable. They've trained their whole lives for this, Nicola.

And you know what? Their mums trained as well, because both your mums were artistic swimmers who swam together. What advice would you give them? I love what you're both doing um for positivity i think it's really good and don't just keep it up don't let what people are saying get to you you're inspiring the next generation and i think it's it's wonderful what

you're what you're doing i wish you all the best of luck at the games. I know you'll do well and bring back medals. And just remember that we're all back home, just watching and cheering you on. So just give it everything that you've got. Yes. Thank you. Yeah, best of luck, girls. Enjoy it as well.

Have an absolute ball and we will be cheering, as Nicola said. I want to thank all my guests. It starts today, 11.20, the opening ceremony on BBC One. Nicola, before you go, though, I've got to ask, because there was a Nicola Adams contingent watching Strictly in my house, and we were devastated when you couldn't take part.

Are you going to go back? Who knows? Who knows? Never say never. That's the right answer. Yeah, that's the right answer. I want to see you lift that trophy as well. Thank you.

Thank you to Anna. Thank you to Nicola. Thank you, Catherine. And well done, Izzy and Kate. Good luck. Lots of you getting in touch as well to talk about all the bits and pieces that you remember

that stand out for you when it comes to sports. This week, my daughter Zoe won Sports Personality of Year 8 at her secondary school. This recognition has boosted her confidence no end and made us all beam.

Well done, Zoe. And of the 10 GB boats in Tokyo rowing, six are crewed by women. And someone else has said, best Olympic moment, Nicola Cook winning gold in cycle race Beijing in the pouring rain. Or was that my years? That's John.

84844, if you'd like to message us about anything you hear on the show. Now, a listener got in touch about a new group she started based on her own experiences of abuse within a religious organisation. She set up Escape Escapee, which she says will help people who want to leave what she calls high-control groups. She was abused by a member of the Jehovah's Witnesses and her case went to the high

court six years ago. It was the first case against the Jehovah's Witnesses for child sex abuse in this country and she won. There was written evidence in a letter that her abuser, who was dead at the time of the court case, had admitted what he'd done. He called himself a pervert. She was awarded substantial damages. She's lifelong anonymity but when I spoke to her last week she started off explaining what Escape Escapee intends to do. The purpose is it's to support individuals who have lost their community, lost their support network either because they've been expelled from an organisation, society, group, or they've chosen to leave that particular society, organisation, however you'd like to term it. And what can you offer them? What would you be able to provide them with?

Initially, so in that moment where you're in that situation, you have lost, it feels like you've lost everything. Initially, just a space to be able to talk and to know that they're not alone to know that there's people who have been through very similar things to what they're going through now and to advise them to signpost to the services that might be helpful to them where in that moment that confusion in that turbulence it can be quite difficult to sort of see the path forward and just just to be there as a sounding board and just like a safe calm space where they can sort of regroup and think okay what happens next where do I go now with my life you have talked about this being for people who are within high controlled groups when you say organization

you mean places where you feel people are controlled. What do you mean? What's a high-controlled group? I think it's very difficult to define exactly what a high-controlled group is. Certainly for people who find themselves in that situation that I'm describing, where they have lost their community, they've lost those support networks, they themselves often look back on their involvements and describe those groups themselves as actually quite high control. I think their opinions and their voices need to be listened to. I think they're really important. For our point of

view, we would have quite a broad definition of high control it's any group any family any sort of organization any place where the group influences the members to a point that it dictates their everyday decisions or activities or the leadership team board or one individual dominates and influences the members to the extent, again, that it impacts on their daily decisions and activities. And you set this up because it's very personal to you. You've been through it. What happened to you? So me and my sister both, we set up Escape Escapee. We both grew up as part of the Jehovah's Witness organisation and from a very early age, we were aware

that this was a very imminent possibility. Should you go against the rules of the organisation, you would be expelled and you could lose your family. We grew up from, before I can remember, my father was disfellowshipped, which meant we weren't really allowed to talk to him even though we lived in the same house um so I was very aware of that that this was a possibility and then you and your sister went through something horrific didn't you a ministerial servant in the Jehovah's Witnesses sexually abused myself and my sister

and me from the ages of four to nine and it was very much sort of using yeah he used the religion in order to do that. He went to prison in 1995 initially so when I was when I was nine that's where the abuse stopped and at that point I didn't make any disclosures. But you ended up taking it to court didn't you? We did yeah so in the end eventually when I was older I remember they went to the police and there was going to be a criminal execution but that he died for that go ahead but when I But when I was 29, I took it to the High Court and I brought the first civil case of litigation against a Jehovah's Witness for historic child sexual abuse. And the judge found in your favour, and he did mention,

I'm going to quote from his judgment here, the high level of control over all aspects of life of a Jehovah's Witness. Is he right about that? Is that description accurate when he talks about high level of control? It was certainly my experience. And I'm very open to the fact that two individuals may be a part of the same organisation and group and have very different experiences within that group.

And it's certainly not, I think it'd be very wrong to make sweeping generalisations about anything. But certainly for mine and my sister's experiences, yes, that is very right. You talk about feeling trapped. Can you expand on that? Can you tell me how that played out? So because you're not meant to have any association with anybody who's worldly, so anybody who's not a Jehovah's witness you're meant to have very very limited interaction with in fact the only reason you're really meant to talk to them is in order to preach to them and it leaves you very isolated in terms of if you're facing if you wanted to leave so if you were to leave you will then immediately you are on your own you're facing

the like i said this this that you're always aware of, that you could just lose everybody and lose everything. And that in and of itself makes you feel quite trapped. Because this is your community. Yes. And more than that, it's your faith. Yeah, certainly for people like my mum. I don't think, I was never, I was certainly not theologically inclined

to believe it from quite a young age but yes certainly for yeah for people like my mum it's their whole world it's yeah and so it's like so this you you've set up escape escapee for anyone who might be feeling those feelings of there's nowhere to turn there might be people listening who can relate definitely and even if it's a situation where it's maybe even like a temporary if people have been expelled from any kind of group and they're just feeling that you know sort of sense of feeling very lost very confused even if their intention to go back this is not the purpose of

this is just to create that safe space where they can have the moment to think and talk through their option that's that's what this is about. It's certainly not encouraging anybody to leave anywhere where they're happy and where they feel fulfilled. I mean, what happened to you is so awful, you and your sister. But this was somebody in a position of power who was using that to abuse you. And were you made to feel as a child that you know if you were to say anything that it would be going against the faith it was more

that they used the teachings of the faith so you believe that Armageddon is going to happen that when the world's coming at any point And I was told that what I was doing, that I was committing fornication, and that because of that, I would die at this upcoming Armageddon. So I certainly used the faith to put fear, so I wouldn't really have the opportunity to think about disclosing or talking about it.

And it's the whole thing, because as a woman in that organisation, and any kind of organisation where women aren't allowed or don't have the option or the opportunity to be at any decision-making level, as I say, as a woman, especially within that organisation, you are taught that you respect a man, you go to a man for advice and certainly the elders

now last year you gave evidence to the independent inquiry into child sex abuse i mean when you took part how did the other victims experiences from other situations compared to yours and actually how did that basically trigger you wanting to do something to help other people i think just seeing the similarities in terms of people finding themselves in that situation where they've either found the strength to leave or been expelled. And then seeing that, hang on a second, so many people are in such similar circumstances and they've lost everything. I really, me and my sister over coffee,

my sister's been informally helping people for sort of years, but over coffee one morning we sat down and went, no, we can do something about this. We know what needs to happen here. Let's do this. Let's make this a formal setup where people can come to us, they can find us, we can do some good. We can help them find that

peace which is remarkable really the fact that you and your sister decided to set this up to help other people it's a very brave move it's we just can't you can't really sit back and do nothing when you know that people are in that situation and you're aware of how you know how hurt and also potentially how open they are to exploitation because they're in that chaotic moment of sort of finding their feet yeah it's sort of for us it's very much that we just wanted to step forward and also just sort of to be able to be in a position to campaign to question why potentially sort of safeguarding measures aren't being put in place either in terms of child sexual abuse and protecting children but also protecting and safeguarding for adults who are in that situation because

it is a difficult situation to be in and I think there has to be some conversation about the duty of care that organisations have to adults and children. What practical advice and help can you give people if they do get in touch with you? So in terms of where to go for accommodation, training for jobs, we're working with the Maggie Oliver Foundation. We're on their recommended referral list. They obviously signpost people. All of these things, you know, having that advice,

having that network that you've lost, you're replacing, we're all not replacing, but sort of trying to be a supplementary support network in terms of advising people on the next steps forward. So this is where you go for accommodation if your family have asked you to leave the house, which often happens. You can apply to us for small grants,

but yeah, certainly signposting to various support services. Are you worried about a backlash? I would hope not. I would hope that everybody thinks that this is a positive thing, that nobody wants anybody to be in that situation where they've lost everything and they're quite scared. And we hope the organisations themselves or the groups, the societies would want people like us here to cushion that leaving process for people now you've been given anonymity because of the court case um but you would now prefer that to be lifted which might come as a surprise to some people why why do you want to now reveal your identity um i'm not sure if i really it's not that i would

want to reveal my identity. Certainly, I'd never requested the anonymity. It was sort of a technicality of the case. So it's to the side that I actually requested it for all the victims of Peter Stewart. However, as time's gone on and I saw the evidence that was given to the inquiry, especially from the Jehovah's Witnesses, my concerns and my fears that actually the safeguarding just isn't there. The processes aren't there within the organisation still.

And there seems to be movement to implement them. And if by me relinquishing my anonymity, I can push forward on that, I can ask those questions and to push for that safeguarding to be implemented, then I would be willing to do it. But it's certainly not something I would be eager to do. It's just because I fear that safeguarding, that protection isn't being put in place. Now, in a statement to us, the Jehovah's Witnesses said they firmly adhere to the Bible, which condemns child sexual abuse as a crime. And they've provided congregants with scripturally based guidance and ongoing education on the subject of child sexual abuse.

They went on to say when elders learn that someone in the congregation is accused of child sexual abuse, they immediately take steps to ensure the matter is reported to the external secular authorities as may be required by law. Or if it appears that any child may be in danger, they'll also offer pastoral support to the victim and the victim's family. And they finished by saying elders do not shield perpetrators, do not interfere with law enforcement and leave criminal matters to the secular authorities. If you'd like to comment on anything you've heard today, then please do get in touch with us. You can email us via our website. in a fictionalised time in which the UK has criminalised the advertising of sexual services, leading to brothels being raided and sex workers suddenly finding themselves without an income. The book depicts the intersecting lives of three women,

Laurie and Freya, two sex workers, and a journalist, Paula, who's campaigning against prostitution. Frankie Mirren draws on her own experience as a sex worker and an activist to explore sex and relationships, mental health, trauma, motherhood, childcare, and the compromises women have to make to reconcile their experiences with their feminism. And I'm delighted to say Frankie joins us now on Woman's Hour. First of all, Frankie, congratulations on the book. Why did you want to write it? Oh, thank you for having me on. Yeah, so I have been in and out of sex work for such a long time, 25 years since the mid-90s. And in that time, I've had such a range of experiences. I feel like I've literally been in different worlds in sex work. Yeah, I started working when I was 18 in Amsterdam. I've literally been in different worlds and sex work. Yeah, I started working when I was 18 in Amsterdam.

Looking back, I feel very protective of my younger self and that it was really quite exploitative. I feel very angry with the much older guys who felt that it was okay to buy my sexual consent. Despite that, I carried on working. I've worked all over the world for um for several years and then I was out of sex work for 12 years and I went back in my late 30s um I had no idea that you could do sex work when you're that old but it turns out that you can um and it felt so different that time around I was part of this really supportive community and I was working for myself, which for me was a much easier way to work. I was making a lot more money. So, yeah, I felt and in that time I'd also got involved in activism.

I'm part of two sex worker collectives in the UK, the English Collective of Prostitutes and SWARM, the sex worker advocacy and resistance movement. So I'd become really politicised, which I never was in the time before. And it felt like this really pressing issue. I mean, it's definitely one of the biggest dividing lines in feminism at the moment. And a lot of women on the left who are on side with so many issues around sex work, there will be this huge divide. So yeah, I wanted to write a book. I didn't want to write a memoir because despite so many years in therapy, I haven't really picked what was going on with me as a teenager. I haven't really picked that apart. And I just wasn't, I don't know if I would have written a memoir but writing fiction um you can keep everything at arm's length that meant I could pretend things were made up even if

they weren't and there's a kind of dissociation in fiction that felt very easy for me and it also means you get to step inside other people's minds and represent a few more characters than just yourself um so yeah that was why I wrote the book how did you become a sex worker you said you were only 18 in Amsterdam what happened so I I mean I can remember the actual day really clearly I was um I was standing waiting for a tram and this guy came up to me and he was he said to me oh you look so cool you could fit into any city and I remember thinking no I don't I was like this chubby faced 18 year old and trainers and and he gave me some money and he told me if you want to make some more money here's my card and

I knew immediately what that situation was I was already in Amsterdam I was with some friends um I'd been working as a nanny for a little bit and now I needed a new job I was in a pretty bad mental place taking a lot of drugs and we didn't really have the language to talk about mental health back then I think the first time I really heard talk about mental health becoming the norm when I was about 31 so in all the years before that I just thought I had a crap personality you know and I just couldn't handle things um so I couldn't go and do a you know quote unquote normal job so this seemed like a it seemed like an okay solution I mean I feel quite horrified looking back at that time really and um yeah what how do you feel about it when you reflect on that that period of your life I mean I feel it's you know at the time I felt

like it was kind of this life hack that I'd found a way of being able to still take loads of drugs and stay up all night and work and um you know support myself and and I did carry I mean I worked in Australia and Sydney and Melbourne and in the state, the New Orleans, Fort Lauderdale. And in London, I came back and went to university in the middle of that time. And I worked in Soho. So at the time, it felt like it wasn't, I didn't enjoy the actual encounters, but it felt like a pretty good solution. Looking back, I feel differently. I feel very like when I obviously I have friends now who've got daughters that age and I just think oh my god I'd be disgusted if I thought of some

like grandfather age man but anyway I went back later on and it does feel very different this time around so I feel that there's just so sorry so no no but it's so fascinating Frankie why did you go back because like you say you left you've became a journalist why go back so I was struggling as a journalist partly because it's really difficult being a journalist um also I was developing a chronic illness which I still have now and I thought well I'll just um I'd met all these activists and I was like actually maybe I could go back and I thought maybe I'll just do like a tiny bit of sex work to like top up my income so I'm not so skin and then it started going really well I was making just you know a ridiculously high hourly rate that like no one will ever pay me again in

my life and it felt very different I felt in control um it was really very fine you know it's generally just quite mundane and it didn't feel awful and traumatising like it had before. So it felt, again, like a bit of a lifesaver to still be able to make money around illness. I'm sorry, I feel like I'm really rambling. I know we don't have very long. No, Frankie, you are not rambling. Take your time.

It's actually really interesting to hear you. And then you've also found the time to write a book, a novel. And I'd love you to read an excerpt, if you would. But give us some context. What are we about to hear? Okay, so this is one of the main characters, Laurie. The brothel she works in has been busted, which happens frequently. It's illegal to share a flat with a friend which is something many of us do for safety illegal in the UK anyway she's now done her first ever booking in a car and she doesn't have any safety networks around that so she's scared I'm starting after the explicit bit because it's women's hour this is the pg pg version okay the black audi glides off lori wonders if the man will park in an underground garage in shoreditch and take an elevator up to her bachelor pad or if he'll pull up at a family home in bushy and kiss his wife and go upstairs for a shower before

they eat dinner and catch up on their day she goes into a shop to buy something sweet to take the taste away. And when she gets inside, she realises she's shaking, that for 20 minutes she's been wondering if she might die. She pays for some M&Ms. The guy in the shop has a CCTV camera pointed at himself and she wonders if he ever worries that today someone might kill him. I've seen your face, the man says, in the paper. That was you, wasn't it? She stands with her hand outstretched, but he holds back her change, demanding an answer.

She wants to tell him that he should understand that she knows how it must feel to have your windows broken or to worry about being robbed at work. But there's no sympathy in his face whores can expect no solidarity she won't leave without her change though nearly four pounds so she stares back at him with no expression until he shrugs and deposits the warm coins in her palm it's very good it's very good it's really and you know it's such um you really take us into a world that most of us would have no knowledge about. Is this because you wanted to represent sex workers in a way that they aren't normally represented in books? Yeah, well, I mean, there is, there hasn't been a lot of fiction by sex workers about sex work. There has been Paul Mendes' Rainbow Milk, which was incredible from the UK.

But in general, I feel like there are these broad tropes that sex work is represented with. So, you know, the victim chained to the radiator or the happy hooker in a bath of champagne. And like those people exist at the extreme ends. But there's this huge, mundane, very ordinary middle where literally 70 000 of us work um and i wanted to represent that because it's just so ordinary but also so interesting because everyone's lives are interesting yeah 70 000 of you work in the industry and everyone has an opinion on it yeah 70 000 different stories you know everyone has a different view and i will never all agree um although i will just say that every sex worker

led organisation on the planet agrees that we need full decriminalisation to make us safer so despite as you as my book hopefully points out very often not loving this job we desperately need labour rights and to be able to work safely. And how has the pandemic affected sex workers? Yeah I mean the pandemic was a nightmare A lot of people's income was just immediately, immediately cut off, no way of making money. Some people carried on working because they had no choice. Like we all know that the benefit system is leaving people relying on food banks, unable to look after their kids. Swarm set up a hardship fund and were able to give out tens of thousands of pounds,

which was amazing, but it was a drop in the ocean of what people needed. So yeah, the pandemic really was a nightmare for thousands of women and people of all genders in the sex industry. And what would you like people to take away from your book, Frankie? I would like people to take away that there are so many views on sex work.

We'll never all agree, but however we feel about our jobs, in a criminalised industry, there's no access to labour rights and we desperately deserve to work safely, even if we don't love our jobs. Well, I'm sure it's a subject matter we'll be coming back to on Women's Hour. Frankie, thank you so much for speaking to us. Thank you. Thanks so much. Well done. The service is out now.

Now, we recently talked about tattoos on the programme and had lots of listeners get in touch. One person whose experience caught our eye was Laura Middleton-Hughes, who's had 3D areolas tattooed on her breasts after reconstructive surgery. Laura joins me now, along with Vicky Martin, the tattoo artist who created Laura's nipples. Laura and Vicky, very good morning. Welcome to Woman's Hour. Laura, take me back to what happened and how you came across Vicky. Yeah, so just quickly I'll talk about my story. So I was diagnosed with breast cancer in 2014, which then meant I had to go

through chemotherapy and a mastectomy. I was only 25 at the time so obviously very young to lose a breast and I then I started a reconstruction about a year later because I had to have radiotherapy. I chose to have implants and I actually had a double mastectomy in the end because I wanted the other breast removed for personal reasons and so I had a double implant. They're expanders, they're like balloons. They fill up over a period of time. So it's quite a long process. And then at the very end, you're left with silicon implants in your breasts.

They are hard. They are solid. They look just like balls on your chest. But I couldn't have my nipple saved because a lot of people go through this surgery and remove every single part of the breast I actually had nipple tattoos done in my local hospital which are quite basic because they're obviously not massively experienced artists and they you know that I was happy at the time of what I had it gave me something and then I came across the lovely Vicky uh who contacted myself actually through um another I run two pages on Instagram a personal one and a group one with um I co-founded

it with a lovely friend Nikki called Secondary Sisters and I think Vicky contacted us both but Nikki hadn't actually had uh any surgeries for her cancer. And so I jumped at the chance. She said, would I like to come and have some tattoos done? As I say, I'd already had some done by the NHS and I didn't sort of really know what the difference would be, but I thought I'll go along and see Vicky. And just the experience was utterly incredible because what Vicky does is create not only, you know, a nipple tattoo, but it's 3D. It looks what I would only describe as absolutely realistic. She just takes so much time and care over her artwork.

And that's what it is, it's artwork. And we actually filmed the whole process and actually put it out on our Instagram channel, which the response was incredible because people didn't know this service existed. They didn't realise they could have it done and for someone who's completely flat and with no nipple to have something that looks realistic when you're looking at it just completely changes the way you see your body. Let's bring Vicky in these 3D tattooists this artist what is a 3D tattoo Vicky? Okay so a 3D tattoo is where we use artwork to create the illusion of actually having a nipple because some women can have a nipple created with surgery but it's that one more operation

or maybe the skin's too tight and i think women not all women but i think some women just they don't want to be constantly having their nipples sticking out for a start and they don't want to go back and have one more procedure. So by using artwork, we create the look of a 3D nipple. So it's just using our five colors. I'm obsessed with making it as realistic as physically possible. How do you practice? Where do you practice drawing them? Okay, so initially I practiced a lot on my leg. You drew like tattooed nipples on your leg?

As it stands right now, I have two that are exposed. I'm just... Yes. Sorry. I feel it's important if you're trying a new technique or new pigments for me as an artist I want to just see how it heals in my skin first I understand that it's not the same as radiated skin but it's the nearest closest thing I can get to check that it heals nicely and then secondly I manufactured these hyper-realistic breast molds, which mimic a breast as much as possible, which we use for our students.

You really are suffering for your art, aren't you? I bet it's a good talking point if you're wearing shorts. My son doesn't enjoy a holiday with me very much. No, he does, but wear trousers, mum. Laura, how did these tattoos change how you saw yourself? Just, I mean, both of you, once you looked at yourself in the mirror the first time, Laura, what was that experience like in Vicky's tattoo parlour to see your breasts look like they did? It was incredible. So the whole way along, I could kind of see what Vicky was doing, because obviously I was laid down. But it's one of those things that other people don't see them but every time you're out of the shower you've got this visual reminder that you've gone through something quite major

and then to suddenly have this your breath it's amazing how we do visually see things actually and by actually having something that looks like a breast my brain automatically kind of sees it more as a breast rather than just an implant in my chest. And was it a nerve-wracking or painful experience to go through? I personally don't have a lot of sensation in my breasts anyway because of obviously so much surgery on them and I think so I'm practically numb although I did find I had some areas where Vicky was working on and I'd get pain completely elsewhere that was in random places because obviously the nerves uh you know might be connected to other parts um but in general no I found it very relaxing it was like being at spa I just laid down Vicky's so professional and has just a wonderful you know lovely person and

you can just chat for hours and we were there I can't remember most of the day I think and it just felt like I was having a spa day but yeah it wasn't painful at all and uh vicky you both fought for with social media to get the images online yes yes i mean you know there's a whole army of incredible artists out there that are super trained and have the time um and you know social media deems our images as pornographic because the algorithm doesn't recognize it so you know we've got a huge movement going on at the moment to allow our images because if people can't see our work then women or men will never know what's out there for them and there's so many artists available to donate their work and you are helping so many people thank you both uh for speaking to

me thank you to all our guests. That's it from me today. Join me tomorrow for Weekend Woman's Hour. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. What would you do if your house just disappeared? You need to calm down. People are staring.

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