Woman's Hour - Kate Winslet, Professor Sue Black, Chloe Smith, Beryl Cook

Episode Date: December 7, 2022

Oscar winning actor Kate Winslet stars alongside her real life daughter Mia Threapleton in Channel 4’s female led drama series ‘I am..’. The feature length episode tells the story of Ruth, a mother, who becomes concerned for her teenage daughter’s welfare, after she witnesses her retreating more and more into herself. Freya has become consumed by the pressures of social media and is suffering a mental health crisis. The story was developed and co-authored by Kate and Dominic Savage. Kate talks to Emma about the issues examined in the film and working with her daughter. This year the Royal Institute Christmas Lectures will be given by Professor Dame Sue Black; one of the world’s leading forensic investigators. She is currently the President of St Johns College Oxford, but her previous achievements include heading the British Forensic Team in Kosovo, identifying victims from the 2004 Boxing Day tsunami, and convicting Scotland’s largest paedophile ring. In the lectures she will share the real-life scientific detective process that she uses to identify both the dead and the living. She tells Emma Barnett how she will be separating crime fiction from fact using examples from her own casebook.Conservative MP Chloe Smith is one of a number of parliamentarians who have already announced they won’t be standing at the next General Election in two years time. Aged only 40 she has served in a range of ministerial positions including her last post when she made it to the cabinet as Secretary of State for Work and Pensions albeit for only seven weeks during Liz Truss’s brief tenure as Prime Minister. What have been her main achievements? and what does she plan to do with her life after leaving the commons?The work of the British artist, the late Beryl Cook, has been given a new lease of life in a gallery in New York. The exhibition, entitled, Beryl Cook Takes New York, is the first ever exhibition of her work abroad. Cook's colourful pictures documented ordinary people in their every day surroundings and she was known for her robust women and men, all seemingly having a fantastic time. Celebrities such as Whoopi Goldberg and Yoko Ono own her work. Emma speaks to Beryl’s daughter in law, Teresa Cook and Rachel Campbell-Johnston about her enduring appeal.

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2. And of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme. Peak danger.

Listen wherever you get your podcasts. BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Felicity Finch. You may know me as Ruth in The Archers. I have something important to ask you before you listen to your podcast. This Christmas, thousands of people across the UK will be without a safe place to call home. But you can help change that. A gift to the Radio 4 Christmas Appeal with St Martin-in-the-Fields can help people find call home. But you can help change that. A gift to the Radio 4 Christmas Appeal with St Martin-in-the-Fields can help people find a home by providing a much-needed deposit or paying for

rent in advance. Everything starts with home. And this Christmas, home starts with you. Please support the Radio 4 Christmas Appeal by donating online on the Radio 4 Christmas Appeal website. When times are so difficult for so many, thank you for helping people to restart their lives with a home. Now enjoy your podcast. Hello, I'm Emma Barnett and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Welcome to the programme, where we have one departing MP for you, who was a Secretary of State for 45 days during Liz Truss's brief time as Prime Minister, Chloe Smith, one world-leading forensic investigator, Professor Dame Sue Black,

and a focus on one of this country's best-loved artists, who's finally having her moment in New York, Beryl Cook. We also have the Oscar-winning actor Kate Winslet. And in our very joyous and very candid conversation, in which we do cover her penchant for picking her feet, burping and breaking wind, I did say it was candid, we also discuss the topic of smartphones and children in light of her latest TV project, which I'll come on to. Kate Winslet is clear she agrees with the Children's Commissioner for England that children shouldn't be bought smartphones and that we will look back on

what we allow children to be exposed to and be horrified. Instead, buy them a brick phone with no internet access. But it isn't also that simple, which she acknowledges. If you've navigated this or are dealing with it now, or perhaps it's to come, or you don't have children, but you've also thought about this for other people's children, what is your take? To give you the political context, because it's relevant, especially this week, on Monday, the long-awaited and rather beleaguered online safety bill

returned to the House of Commons after a six-month delay. This was after controversial measures which would have forced big technology firms to take down legal but harmful, that's the key phrase, material, were axed. The government argues that the changes do not undermine the protections for children, but other people felt very differently. What do you make then of the idea of not buying children smartphones, of looking at this in a completely different way. What strategies have you come up with? Have you got an arrangement with your child if they're at this age? What age did you do it, if you did it?

Do they have to come home and give over the device? How much sight or oversight do you have or try and have? This is really difficult territory, and it would be very interesting to hear your take. The number is 84844 to text. Text to charge your standard rate. On social media, we're at BBC Women's Hour. You can now send a WhatsApp message or a voice note on this number, 03700 100 444. That's 03700 100 444.

Or send an email through the Women's Hour website. I'm looking forward to getting your messages on this and I imagine it's been a source of consternation for some of you and a source of debate too, which I'm sure will reflect. But first, let's hear from Kate Winslet herself then. Our conversation about smartphones and internet access for teens and young people stems from one of her latest projects in which she stars alongside her real-life daughter,

Mia Threepleton, in Channel 4's female-led drama anthology series, I Am. The feature-length episode tells the story of Ruth, a mother who becomes concerned for her teenage daughter's welfare after she witnesses her retreating more and more into herself. Freya has become consumed by the pressures of social media and is suffering a mental health crisis. The story was developed and co-authored by Kate Winslet

with the director, Dominic Savage. Let's hear a clip then from I Am Ruth. I heard your phone going into the early hours of the morning, darling. It's not the best idea. Beginning of a school week, sweetheart. Who on earth is possibly messaging you at that time of night anyway?

Come on, sit down, darling. Have some egg. I'm not sure if you should be wearing quite such a revealing skirt to school. I'm not sure you should be wearing such a horrible wine-coloured dress with such a low neckline. Why have you got the pink dots on your eyes? Because it's part of the style that I try out on my face. Why have you got those earrings in? Why do you have that mascara on? Why do you have no contour on?

Why are you standing like that? An exchange between a mother and daughter and a mother and daughter in real life too, something we also talk about. Let's hear then my conversation, my interview with Kate Winslet, which I started by asking her what made her want to tell this story in the first place. We just wanted to tell a story that was truthful

and resonated with people in a way that might be new, might hopefully help them to have conversations with their teenagers that they have been nervous to have, haven't known how to have. It's so clearly a massive issue for parents these days, struggling with teenagers and their mental health and the addiction to telephones and the use of social media and not knowing how to sometimes even get through or communicate with their child. We wanted to tell a story that was real and that means sometimes painful and difficult to watch, but we didn't want to shy away from anything. What do you make of how your character

handles it? Because there are times where, and I say this as a parent of only a four-year-old, so I'm not at this point yet, and I'm looking to learn, but there are points where I wanted your character just go in the room earlier on and get this phone that is making this noise and driving her daughter to such a dark place. Well, it's actually kind of a natural reaction. You know, as parents, we don't want our children to hate us. We want to do the right thing. That's why so often parents will say, well, you know, you have to let them have social media because all their friends have had it. And how do you say no? And well, you can say no, you can intervene. It just takes an enormous amount of courage and you have to follow through.

And, you know, I don't have a rule book. I don't have a manual. I'm like any other parent who's made it up as I've gone along well. But I can tell you for sure that, you know, when you can hear that your child is using a phone excessively, you slightly have to kind of let them do it and hope they're going to stop and hope that they might listen to you when you say, oh, go to bed now, darling. You know, we've all been there. I have been there too myself.

And we wanted to take the character to a point that she had to intervene because she could see that what was happening to her child was without question actively damaging and truly harming her mental health and that's when the story really cracks open. Yeah, it's very pertinent as well for lots of reasons that you've said but also I was just looking back on this. Only a few days ago the Children's Commissioner for England, Dame Rachel D'Souza, has said we're going to look back on this

with horror as to the fact we gave smartphones to children and what they've been able to see. Her research has said kids have seen, we know about porn, of course, but also beheadings online by a very young age. And the message that came from her was, do not buy your children a smartphone. What do you make of that? She's right. She's right. I don't want to be accused of being a celebrity standing up on a soapbox, but it is possible to just say no. My children don't have social media and haven't

had social media. There are many fake accounts out there for myself and also my children, weirdly, so I'm told. But it's possible to just say, no, you can't have it. You can't have it because I want you to enjoy your life. I want you to be a child. I want you to look at the clouds and not photograph them and post them on your Instagram page and then decide whether or not the clouds were worth looking at because someone thought that they were rubbish. It's tampering with sometimes a very basic level of self-esteem, but on a bigger and darker scale, it is tampering with young people's self-esteem to the extent that they are completely losing a sense of who they are and don't know how to communicate with not just their friends, but their families. And it's making them depressed. It's clearly making them depressed.

It's obviously a huge problem. And she's right. Don't let your children have a phone if they are too young to know what to do with it. What age do you manage to hold out on with your children? I actually can't remember, but they were most certainly not 11. But I actually can't remember. It's very difficult, though, at the same time. And this frustrates me in the same way that I'm sure it frustrates lots of parents. You know, homework is set online. Children are asked to take photos of the blackboard with their phone if they weren't listening or were sitting at the back and they didn't hear what the homework was. I mean, what happened to good old worksheets being sent home? You know, schools, I think, are happened to good old worksheets being sent home? You know,

schools, I think, are also not necessarily implementing systems that are helpful in terms of mitigating this problem. I mean, I'm like everyone else. Like, I'd love to know what we're supposed to do, you know. I think that the drama poses some of those questions as well for people to discuss. It's got an added element to this when we're talking about being a parent from your perspective, because your actual daughter is your daughter in this. She's gone into the same world as you, different surname,

so not always linked. And I did wonder, on a slightly lighter note, when there's lots of running up and down the stairs, listening outside the room, and then that moment where you talk about her skirt

being too short for school, any elements of that that had rang true in real life? Well, listen, let me tell you, this film was not scripted in the sense that there is no written dialogue for the actors to learn. So we came up with all of that ourselves. So for sure, there were certainly things that we drew upon of our own experiences without question. I mean, I think going into it, we knew as a mother and daughter that there were inevitably going to be some areas of overlap. Luckily, we are close. Luckily, she shares with me and I have always been able to

support her and really listen. But yeah, a little bit of our own experiences for sure are in there. Absolutely. I'm sure I probably have said to her at one point, are you really going to go out the house wearing a skirt that short? I'm sure I've done it. I certainly know my mother would say that to me. Or my mother would say, get that muck off your face about makeup. Get that muck off your face. Or take your hair down.

That was one my mum would say, take your hair down, darling. You look lovely with it down. And, of course, immediately you're like, well, I'm going to keep it up then. I'm scraping it right back off my face right now with that muck on it yeah there was that moment where I think she attacks what you're wearing and you attack what she's wearing and it just resonated very much I recently had the actor Caroline Quentin on the program with her daughter they're appearing on stage together and she said something that I wanted to ask you about because she said when men have their sons go into the same business and in my case acting, you know, it's a dynasty.

When women do it, we get asked about nepotism and it's it's treated differently. She felt very strongly about that. I wonder what you make of that. Having one of your children go into the same. That's true actually. Good for her for saying that. I think that is kind of true I mean I haven't been concerned about the sort of nepotism suggestion simply because if it was Mia's first ever job I could understand why I'd feel like I had to justify it and be defensive and but she's been acting for four years now and actively getting work and doing her own thing like she's she's doing it and not without not with my help at all um and in actual fact the way in which it came about that she was going to be in this was that it never even occurred

to me that we would think of Mia for the daughter because the character was actually quite a lot younger than Mia is and at that age you know there's a big difference between 16 and 22 um so it didn't occur to me and other young actresses names were in the mix and very very much talked about and then Dominic Savage turned to me and he said well I do like to work with real people and he does like there's a teacher in our film that's actually one of my daughter's real ex-teachers believe it or not there's a doctor in the film named Dr Susie she is a real doctor named Dr Susie and that was filmed in her practice, in her practitioner's room.

And so he said to me, so, well, why aren't we asking Mia? And I sort of gulped and was, I was initially a bit taken aback. And I said, oh my God, well, you'd have to audition her. I have to be separate to that decision. That can't have anything to do with me.

And so they went through the proper process. And he said, look, I think if you feel, if you feel brave enough I think we should get we should do it you are you have been I think very brave and outspoken on the appearance side and the expectation of women in your industry uh because I mean I do also love the fact that you've talked relatively recently about being obsessive about your feet, saying you pick at them, but you're not sure everyone wants to know that. This was after. My feet hurt so much, I've just taken my shoes off because they're so big. I've got arthritis in my big toe and my left foot swells up in the heat.

I mean, I'm 47. You know, there are bits that don't do what you want them to do anymore. And there's something kind of fab about going, oh, well, that's just the way it is, isn't it? But here's the other thing that I do want to say is that I think women come into their forties, certainly mid forties thinking, oh, well, you know, this is the beginning of the decline. Things start to change and fade and kind of slide in directions that I don't want them to go in anymore. And, you know, I've just decided, no, we become more women, more powerful, more sexy. We grow into ourselves more.

We have opportunity to speak and speak our mind and, you know, not be afraid of what people think of us, not care what we look like quite so much. I think it's amazing. You know, let's go, girls. Let's just be in our power. Why not? Life's too flipping short, you know?

But this all came about, and there'll be a lot of. Why not? Life's too flipping short, you know. But this all came about and there'll be a lot of people screaming amen at the radio to that when they hear it. But this came about because there was such a fuss, wasn't there, about playing the detective role in the mayor of East Town and how you didn't look versus how you did look in it. This idea that, you know, you didn't wear any makeup. But you know what's really funny is that, you know, you're absolutely right. I know it was absurd. I mean, we'd never make that thing. It's such a great program. You'd never make that fuss or that much noise about a male actor's appearance, would you now?

No, you flipping wouldn't. So it was a bit irritating. Also, by the way, I did have makeup on. I absolutely had makeup on. And so when I came to do I Am Ruth, which was the next thing I filmed after Mare of Easttown, I thought, well, I've only got one option here. And that's to go one step further and really actually not wear any makeup and just scrape my hair back into a crappy old ponytail like I do every day of my life anyway. There were a lot of myths, I think, around perfection and actresses looking perfect all the time and how real that is or that isn't.

And I do care about being real and telling stories that are truthful and come from a place of integrity. I care passionately about that now, about highlighting issues that need to be talked about, that perhaps people find hard to talk about. Not shying away from, yeah, I mean, like in I Am Ruth, truly looking like, you know, kind of a hot mess a lot of the time. Well, I also think a lot of... When they go on the school run, I don't. No, I mean, and then there is the irony that you will have been, as you say, wearing some makeup to look like that. But a lot of us watched Mare of Easttown. I adored it during lockdown. And, you know, we were permanently living on the sofa, eating crisps, as many fake foods as possible. And just only wearing tracksuit pants because nothing else would do up.

I know a bra was a real step forward. A real bra, yeah. Brars became super challenging and really painful when we finally had to put them back on and walk out into the real world. It's like, oh my God, what is this halter we're wearing? What's this terrible thing that no longer does up in the back?

You had ample opportunity to pick your feet, I'm sure, during lockdown, which is, you know, part of the activities. There was also a lovely quote, I remember you saying, I looked it up again this morning, I burp, I fart, I am a real woman, which you need to get put on a T-shirt, part of the activities. There was also a lovely quote, I remember you saying, I looked it up again this morning,

I burp, I fart, I am a real woman, which you need to get put on a T-shirt, Kate Winslet. Let's do it. Shall we get one in? Yes. I'm keen. I'm terribly, terribly keen. Can I just ask, while I have you, one more on this,

because you were in the news recently, especially in the UK, for a donation you made. I'm not bringing this up to get your blushes, but it really speaks to the times that we are living in. And to help another mother, you donated some money to a mum facing sky-high energy bills to try and help with her daughter's life support stay on. And it's her daughter Freya, who's 12, has severe cerebral palsy. She relies on oxygen for chronic breathing problems. How did that story cross your

path and what's it meant to you to be able to try to help? Well, I've always been, I mean, I think I get this from my own mother. I've always felt enormous compassion for the individual who is in a powerless position through the state of the systems. And especially when it comes to mothers and children and the treatment of children and the lack of care, the lack of acknowledgement that a life is a life. A mother has a right to mother that child in their home on their terms. And the fact that this woman, Carolyn Hunter, the fact that she was going to have to possibly put her child into care because she couldn't afford her energy bills. I couldn't let that happen. I just couldn't let that happen. I read it on the BBC Scotland news page and tried to track her down, which is actually quite difficult to do,

because when someone gives an interview or tells their story publicly, there's a lot of protections around them but using GoFundMe fundraising you see that I've worked with in the past using some friends that I've made there we were able to get in touch with her and say to her look we'd like to make a donation let's set up a page for you and make that possible and that was how we were able to set up the fundraising page I made a donation and what was remarkable and utterly moving to me is that in the six days following my initial donation, what I had donated more than doubled in donations from people who put in a fiver, a tenner, people putting their hand in their pocket because they wanted to make a difference to that woman when they clearly probably had very little funds to be able to actually help themselves they were able to put their hand on their heart their hand in their pocket and help and that gives me hope about the way of the world I couldn't let Carolyn and Freya suffer they need support did you manage to talk to her as well yeah Yeah, my son and our youngest and I, we had a lovely FaceTime call

with her and we were able to meet with Freya and that was very special. Yeah, very special. Well, we're hoping to have Carolyn on the programme tomorrow. That was Kate Winslet talking about one of her latest projects. She's a busy woman at the moment. I Am Ruth is on Channel 4 tomorrow night at

9 o'clock. And my goodness, the response from you about this topic, about smartphones, about children, about access is it's rather overwhelming. But let me give you a flavour. As a parent of a child who's nearly 10, I'm stuck between choosing to allow it and try to equip my child with coping skills and strategies to manage it or say no and potentially put my child outside social circles it feels like whatever i choose i'll lose another one my 10 year old daughter has a smartphone she has a screen lock in place from 6 30 in the evening till nine o'clock the next morning means she can only use the phone after school but before bedtime no social media and only apps that get approved by

our apple id account first the phone is used for contacts if she goes out and for games and education slash entertainment whilst travelling and during downtime. But one from a 23-year-old here, which I thought was really worth reading. I don't yet have children. I have a smartphone since I was 11 and I would not put any future children I have through that. Having access to social media and constant contact

with other young people feels fun and normal for a while but eventually it had a horrible effect on my mental health. Unfortunately being socially ostracised can have the same effect and I'm sure that this is what would happen to a child who was unable to join in on social media due to not having a smartphone and particularly a child who was visibly different i.e. by carrying around a brick phone. The question becomes which is the lesser evil? Many more messages. If I can, I will come back to them. But a lot of you talking about how you've grappled with this,

but I thought particularly interesting to hear from someone who's grown up with this exact situation. Let's talk now to Professor Dame Sue Black, one of the world's leading forensic investigators. This year, she's going to be giving the Royal Institute Christmas Lectures, sharing the real-life scientific detective processes she uses to identify both the dead and the living. And she's identified quite a few, to say the least. She recently took up the post as president of St John's College, Oxford. But before that, she led the British forensic team's exhumation of mass graves in Kosovo in 1999, helped identify victims from the 2004 Boxing Day tsunami, and did two tours of Iraq.

I could go on, but let's talk to the woman herself. Professor Dame Sue Black, good morning. A very good morning to you. Thank you for being with us. I believe these lectures mean quite a lot to you. Oh, enormously. I remember being a teenager and I think it must have been about 1975 perhaps, which shows just how old I am. And I think the Christmas lecture that year was Heinz Wolff. And I'd never come across anybody who either looked like him or had the enthusiasm that he had. And for those of you who are my age, you might remember, I think he was German, and he had wonderfully mad, sticky-out hair.

And he had this charisma that just, if all scientists could talk that way, it would just bring you into the field. And he was a huge influence. And my family were not scientists, but the Christmas lectures were very much something that we did every year and sat down and watched because it was at a level of understanding scientific understanding that both me and my parents who weren't scientists were at the same level which was wonderful so to actually be doing it is like a dream come true no pressure hope the hair's ready at all oh well heavens no

the makeup and the prosthetics i think will be the challenging no no no i'm joking you just get it get it sticking right out so uh someone someone younger will remember look a bit like crystal tips you know if you remember crystal tips and alistair my hair does that sort of mad wind bush thing so maybe i'm in the right job after all you you have talked about uh skin and bodies being like memory. And for your lectures, or in terms of the message you're hoping to land with people, what are you trying to get across? I think what the lectures try to do more than anything, and I think it's where it succeeds, is to make science accessible. So to have a general understanding. And of course, me as a forensic forensic scientist I go into the courtroom and my job in the courtroom is to help the jury understand the evidence so they can make a

decision about guilt or innocence and of course the jury are members of the public so forensic science is a really wonderful vehicle to be able to talk about science but to be able to talk about it in a way that is really truly understandable you talked about your childhood there not not being surrounded by scientists but you you actually spent some time i believe also skinning rabbits plucking pheasants uh tell me about this and how that fed into the ambition i was i was my father's little shadow everywhere my father went i went with him and he was a great shot which is really useful given that my maiden name was Gun. So he was a great shot, my father. And whenever he went out, it was always for something for the pot. It was never for sport.

And so I would go with him. So from about the age of five, I'd be carrying back rabbits or pheasants or whatever. And I'd sit at the back door with my father and he'd very patiently teach me how to skin a rabbit, how to pluck a pheasant. And as I got older, how to grill a deer. So, you know, quite intense. My mother was squeamish. She would cook it, but there was no way she would actually handle it. And then when I was about 12, my father said to me, what job are you going to get? And I thought he meant when I grew up, but classic Scottish Presbyterianism, he meant at 12, what job were you going to get? Because there were seven days in the week and five of those were in school, which meant you still had two days where you could do something productive.

So naturally, I ended up working all of my summer and Saturdays in a butcher shop because it was like sitting at the back door with my father. And when I went to university, the obvious place was the anatomy department because it was still with muscle and blood and viscera and bone. So I've not really strayed from that sort of life choice back at about five years, when I was five years old. What an apprenticeship in the butchers for this life and career that you're now so well known for. You've also body mapped your daughters, is that right?

Well, you make me sound like a dreadful mother. No, no, I think it's, but you know, most people, if they can bring something home from their work, they will if it's applicable. What's this all about? Well, we're always very conscious that wherever you go in life, there's a possibility of a fatal a fatal event

and so um from a very early age um my my children i i have photographs of them at every age uh we have fingerprints um there's a little blood sample as well and of course there are teeth that came out so well we can always get dna from there but of course we know who their mother and they're allegedly who their father is i keep telling them. So the tooth fairy must have been quite an intense situation in your house. You'll be like, I'll be having that. Go on. Yes, but I only hold them until, of course, I do pass them on to the tooth fairy in due course. So yes, for anyone listening. Of course I do. But the interesting thing was one of my secretaries when I was at Dundee, she was heading over to New York. And it was just after bin Laden had been killed and we were concerned about the potential for a

threat. So we did everything with her. We contacted her dentist, we contacted her medic, we took her fingerprints, we took blood samples, we did everything so that if she went down on a plane, we were able to reassure her that we would bring her back for her family. It's all about care and concern. Yes. And I mean, I'm also, you know, I'm very mindful of some of the scenarios that you've been in and the sorts of things that you will have seen, which will have affected you, I'm sure, very, very deeply. But talking about family as well, we had the family. I spoke to the parents of Toni Cruise on the programme on Monday. She's the first, the UK's first named person to be publicly dissected in aid of cancer research.

And we've got some messages from people who have also made the same decision. Are you also of that type of thinking? Are you going to do that? And how important is it, do you think? I already have so as an anatomist I learned very early on in my career just what an incredible gift it is when somebody donates their body for medical research and I would be the world's biggest hypocrite if I didn't do the same so my papers are all signed they're with my lawyer they are with the department ofomy at Dundee because I intend to go home when I die.

And my preference is that my dissection is done by science students rather than medics and dentists because the scientists actually do a lot more dissection because they have more time in their schedule. So I want to be properly, fully, utterly dissected so that somebody can learn. And it is about that gift that in death, what you can do is you can become a silent teacher and you can teach the students so much more. I'd never heard that phrase before, before watching the programme, but it's very powerful. Our students say very much, you know, it's their silent teachers that they learn more from. And I think that's unquestionably true. What I'd like Dundee to be able to do, and they haven't agreed to it yet, is that when the dissection is finished,

I'd quite like them to retain my skeleton, because I like the idea of being able to go on and teach for the rest of my death. And the skeleton, of course, will persist for a lot longer. That's quite the image to have in my mind, in all of our minds. Well, my daughters thought it was a wonderful idea. Do they? The family, right. Absolutely. They said, you know, mum, normally, you know, when somebody dies, you go and you visit a grave or a place where you put the ashes. We could actually come and visit you. And, you know, given that my girls are very, very down to earth and very sensible, I think,

you know, there's a certain element of comfort in that, I think, for them anyway. Do you live a life differently, do you think, in any way because of your relationship with death? Yes, I live a life that is for today. So I'm never in a position where I'm thinking about what's tomorrow bringing, next year bringing, because you just simply don't know. And so many times we've worked on cases where in a real, you know, moment of bringing, because you just simply don't know. And so many times we've worked on cases where in a real moment of sadness, you think, gosh, if this person had known what was coming, what would they have done differently? So I learned very quickly in places like Kosovo, not to worry about the things that genuinely don't matter. So I don't care if the vacuum cleaner doesn't go around every day. Trust me, I don't. I don't care if there's a scratch on the side of the car. I do care that my children hear from me every day.

And when they were children, they had a hug before they went to bed. Those are the things that matter, not the material things in life. And I think when you're exposed to some absolutely horrendous human disaster situations, it does give you a reality check on life. I bet, I bet. Well, Professor Dame Sue Black, good luck with the prep and good luck with these messages coming out through you

from the Royal Institute for the Christmas Lectures. You'll be able to watch on BBC4 and the iPlayer between Christmas and New Year. And who knows which little people will be watching and then having some of the same

thoughts perhaps you had when you were young. Wouldn't that be wonderful? And that's the beauty of the lectures. You just don't know who's in the audience that's the next person that's going to pick up your mantle and move on. All the best. Thank you so much. You're welcome. Well, later in the show, we're going to be hearing how Beryl Cook, the later artist, much loved, turned her hobby into a profession. But before we do, it is a topic we will be wanting your views on. If you're harbouring a dream of turning your passion into a business or you have a particular skill you enjoy and could share professionally,

let us know. Do you want to make something that isn't already available? Perhaps you're keen to offer a service lacking in your area. What's holding you back? Or have you done it? Have you made it happen? What's it been like? Rewarding?

Sharp learning curve? Get in touch in the usual ways. You can text WOMEN'S HOUR on 84844 or go to our website to find out. Perhaps my next guest will be telling us a little bit about what she's planning to do a bit differently because she's certainly finishing up in her line of work shortly, or not that shortly. We don't know when the next election is, but we'll see what beckons for an MP's afterlife in the sense of work. 45 days, though, that's how long my next guest was able to be a secretary of state for the very first time and now leaving politics altogether at the next general election, which is, I should say, in case you are wondering, it's expected in a couple of years time.

But who knows? You really don't in British politics at the moment. Who am I talking about? The Conservative MP for Norwich North, Chloe Smith, who's expected in a couple of years' time. But who knows? You really don't in British politics at the moment. Who am I talking about? The Conservative MP for Norwich North, Chloe Smith, who's just come into the studio. Very briefly, the Working Pensions Secretary. She's among a number of parliamentarians across parties who've already announced they won't be standing at the next general election.

Chloe, now 40, has held a range of ministerial positions over the last decade, quite a few actually, since her election in 2009. I bring up her age because when she was elected, she was just 27, making her then the youngest MP in the Commons, known as the baby of the House. Now she's off. Chloe Smith, good morning. Good morning. Lovely to be with you. Thanks for being here with us. Yes, are you harbouring a dream? We were going to hear from our listeners.

Well, absolutely right. Well, I think we all have dreams, don't we? And we all want challenges in life. And I think I do actually, I must say, I'd like to maybe look back before looking forward. I do think that the opportunity that you have in being an MP and a minister is a chance actually to fulfil dreams, because actually it's a really important type of public service. And it's one that I've loved doing, absolutely loved doing. And I hope I've made a difference in. I don't think, as usual, the politician, did I get an answer there?

What are you doing next? I suppose was my inference from the question. I promise we're going to look back. But do you have a plan? Yes, indeed. And, you know, I think for me, as you mentioned, my age, for me, actually, this is perhaps just the next chapter of a career. As many people will will do that. And no doubt I'm not not the only 40 year old to be rethinking things in the middle of their of their life.

But I would like to be able to to carry on with some of the passions I've had in my time in public service. So, for example, in the work I've done, I've been particularly interested in how to help more disabled people into employment and that's true both constituency level and nationally and i hope i might be able to carry on contributing in that kind of way there's a number of things like that that i'd like to take forward uh perhaps into the private sector because we can say all we like about policy in government and in parliament but you then have to implement these things and make them a reality uh in the private sector. So, I mean, yes, as a constituency level, you've been very active. You also had a number of roles which I've referred to, but you were a Secretary of State for just 45 days.

That must have been quite something, watching what happened with Liz Truss. Well, I can't challenge you on the facts. It's true it was a short stint. I mean, I was absolutely delighted to have a chance to serve at that level. It's personally a shame that it was short. You probably haven't taken your coat off by that point. But in all seriousness, you supported her. What was that like from your position those weeks? Yes, it was a pretty intense period in government. I mean, I think that was clear from the outside as much as from the inside.

I'd actually supported Liz for a number of reasons, including that we're Norfolk colleagues. You know, we work together. Our constituency is very close by. And actually, I grew up in her constituency. So, you know, really wanted to see her succeed. And I thought there were some really good ideas there, some important things about how to help the country grow and help businesses to grow. I think actually, you know, some of those elements will be continuing, which is great. But yes, as she herself acknowledged, she took things too far and too fast.

And for those of us who were in that team, we were doing our best to be able to deliver on, I think, good aims and good ambitions. But it is, as you say, it was a short period. Do you feel bad about those people who got caught and their mortgages were affected and the costs incurred to people, real lives, the bottom line? Yes, I am concerned about that. And again, I think Elizabeth herself acknowledged that and she apologised for, you know, a number of the things that had happened. But of course, if you don't mind,

if I then zoom out slightly, obviously with the new chancellor in place and then ongoing with events since then, I do hope things are on a slightly more even keel for people and that it won't be a matter of concern. Well, I think people hope that very much. As we are in this situation, we've had the Conservatives for more than a decade now.

If Liz Truss was still in power, would you be staying in politics? Because you'd still be a Secretary of State. I think I'd still be a person at the age of 40 looking at the other chapters of my life. We should just say, for people who don't know, I'm sorry to cut across, there was a deadline at the beginning of this week for all MPs, just for Conservative MPs, to say whether they're going to run in the next election. That's why we've heard a flurry of names. So you would have still carried on as a politician or it was the Liz Truss thing that put you off, do you think? No, for me, it's been my decision in terms of what I'm going to do next actually is not about politics. It's actually quite personal. It's that I've had that opportunity to contribute, really proud to have done that. And as I say, I hope I've made a difference in

various ways, but then want to look for fresh challenges. And also having had quite a number of personal experiences in my time in politics. You mentioned I entered the House of Commons at 27. So actually, that means I've had my family since being an MP. I entered the House of Commons at 27. So actually, that means I've had my family since being an MP. I've got two young children to think about. And you know, like many, I want to spend more time with my kids. But also having had a round of breast cancer in that time, you know, all these things obviously make you think about your priorities and what you want to go on to achieve in spheres as well as what you might already have done. Yes and you continued working during that you spoke about that and I know that your work's

been very important as a support system as well in that time but has also taken you away from home. People resigning then or certainly saying they're going to not stand again as the phrase is better put. Do you take that as a sign of a lack of confidence in Rishi Sunak being returned as prime minister in his own right? No, I don't particularly. And I'm fairly sure, actually, that each individual has their own personal reasons, as I do. As I say, mine myself is very much personal, not political. And I can't speak for the others, but I'm sure that each person will have taken that decision very seriously themselves. I recognise you're personal.

It's just, again, as you were saying, zooming out a little, the polls are looking dire for the Conservatives at the moment. We've seen a couple of times now, and we're only on Wednesday of this week, where Rishi Sunak's had to change course because of backbench or concerns about backbench rebellions. And some saying, you know, people like yourself have only ever really known time in government. You've never had to do it on the opposite side.

Life on the opposition bench is very, very different. I recognise it might not be your reason, but have you heard from colleagues that they don't want to run again or they're thinking about not running again because they don't think he can be returned? Well, in actual fact, I have worked through opposition. I joined the Commons in 2009 before 2010. Exactly those circumstances. But you didn't do 10 years on the backbench, on the opposition benches? I think, I mean, I really think you'd have to ask the others that, you know, their motivation if you want to go down that line of questioning. No, just if you had a sense of it, that was all. I think people are absolutely committed

to doing the right work for their constituencies and they have confidence in the new prime minister, which I'm glad to see. I wish him every success. I want him to succeed in what he's set out and to succeed in delivering on the manifesto on which we all stood. So he's got my full support

and I know he has that of the full rest of the team as well. But as I say, these are ultimately individual decisions for people. You made reference to a deadline that had been set. So yes, this is within the Conservative Party, but this is also in relation to a slightly technical background thing about the way that some constituency boundaries are changing. So again, people have highly individualised reasons. they might not be able to get a job which is which is a serious thing you know and paying their bills and their people like anyone else

you've been at pains to stress politicians are people to try and remember that in particular about women and in particular about how women are treated in public life that is something you've done work on it is safety it is yes as when i was minister for the constitution i was working on uh what's now the elections act which looked at how we uh potentially could deter intimidation in public life and i think actually i mean this is of course not just a point for women this is a point but during your time the the murder of joe cox uh of course is is is very much in people's minds or was very much as well at that similar time and it's not just women you're completely right to say sir

david amos we mustn't forget sir david amos but but i know that you you were looking at that and i know you're passionate about trying to say to women as you leave consider this still as an option i think that's exactly right and and actually, that's why overall, I would always resist, you know, saying that there's a kind of a generalised movement away from politics or, you know, a loss of confidence in that as a, you know, as a really fine career, because it is amazing to be able to serve your constituency and your country, to be a national lawmaker, to be a local champion. And for me, I've always thought there's a third bit that goes with that in the unique role that an MP can have, which is to be able to be. And for me, I've always thought there's a third bit that goes with that in the unique role that an MP can have,

which is to be able to be an ambassador for democracy. We are so lucky in this country, of course, to have things that actually are not universally had around the world. And I think we have to treasure that and at times treat our democracy more carefully than often we do. I've got to ask you, Chloe, how did you feel as an ambassador for democracy when you were put forward for that interview with Jeremy Paxman in 2012?

Some may remember you from that. I don't think George Osborne was up for that particular interview, but you were in the Treasury and you were put forward for it. It was described as a mauling. I remember it well. How was it for you? Well, look, I think it was probably just as bad as anybody else who did stupid things 10 years ago in their career. You know, we all live and we all learn. It was not my finest hour. What was the stupid thing? Agreeing to go on or how it went?

No, stupid perhaps is the wrong word. Who, you know, just simply had things to learn still in life. And what can I say? I'm now older and wiser. I mean, I've presented Newsnight for a number of years. It's quite a place to learn it on live TV. It is. Just on a human level, what's that like when that's happening? It's interesting for me to ask you that as someone who's often in the other shoe, you know, in the interviewing seat. I mean, you know, it was, you know, somewhat embarrassing, but it's what you move on from. I mean, in all seriousness, if you don't learn, you know, you're not doing it right. And I'm confident that after what will be a 15 year career in politics, albeit having started

at a very young age, you know, I stand there then with skills that are, you know, forged in the fire in a couple of cases. And that's life. Were you annoyed George Osborne didn't go on instead of you? Do you know what? I don't care. These are absolutely matters of the past. They are, but it's a question I've wanted to ask you for about 10 years. Well, I could offer that, yeah. OK, it's good to be able. You've got a number of things you are very proud of doing with your position.

What's the one that you really will remember as being able to have achieved through this role that you would like others to consider? There's one that stands out actually from even just this year alone, which is the passage of the British Sign Language Act, which I was really, really proud to be involved in. It was a private member's bill. But of course, all of those such bills actually require the minister to basically enable it to happen and to say yes. And I thought, yes, this is the right thing to do. Normally, ministers say no, that's the kind of default position, which is perhaps a little bit sad. But I thought, yes, we have to do this. For me, there was a

personal motivation for that as well, which is that a member of my family has struggled with hearing for a very long time. And I thought, yes, this is the kind of work that actually we can be really proud of in Parliament, cross-party, and I loved that aspect of it. It was really good to work with Rosie Cooper MP together on that. And I think we found each other very straightforward to work with. A Labour MP, just so. Yeah, absolutely.

And, of course, even more than just us doing that work, there was a huge front of campaigners coming together to want to have British Sign Language recognised, which is what this what this act then did. And I mean, one particular experience has really will always stay in my memory from this year. I joined a rally of campaigners, of signers, of British Sign Language users in Trafalgar Square and you know no doubt the first and last time a politician you know gets chanted their name across a square I mean you just don't normally get that in the normal course of the work we do so in a good way in a good way just clarify that exactly as in Chloe we did it you know and it's just wonderful to be able to have been a small part of of of that because it means a really great deal for tens of thousands of people who need better opportunity and whose access to public services in particular will be better for it.

I was looking at your voting record. One of the biggest issues facing the country at the moment is industrial action across the board and tens of thousands of people striking over the next few weeks are those strikes legitimate in your view well i don't know about legitimate in the sense if you if you mean in the sense of of legal but i mean i'm worried about them i don't think it's going to help uh in particular i i'm very worried about um strikes uh in the nhs um but i'm also particularly worried about the rail strikes, because, you know, they compound other people's ability to get to work as well. So no, I'm very worried about it. You've generally voted for a more restrictive regulation of trade union activity. That's why I was interested in your take, not least also, do you think the Conservatives are leaving this country in a better place than when they found it before the next election? Well, let's deal with two questions. So first of all, strikes, I think they are. I mean, I think I think the unions really do

have actually some serious questions to ask themselves because of the level of disruption they're going to put on to ordinary people. And turning then to your your other point, I think I think there is a great deal that people can look to the Conservative Party for and to be proud that we have been able to achieve. For example, including during the way that the pandemic was handled with having had the fastest vaccines in Europe. Not if you read Matt Hancock's book. He doesn't seem very proud of some of it at all. Well, yeah, you know, that's for him to that's for him to publicise as he sees fit. But the point is, actually, we did have the fastest vaccines in Europe. And I think that is, you know, incontrovertible.

And I think Rishi Sunak will be able to, as I say, deliver on our manifesto, which is about supporting schools, supporting hospitals, supporting growth in the economy. And these are all the things that conservatives treat as really important. Well, you won't be campaigning the next time around. But Chloe Smith-Pups will talk again with some of those other things that you're going to focus on. Thank you for coming to talk to us after your announcement that you are stepping down at the next election, whenever that will be.

Thank you, Emma. Now, many of you might be familiar with the work of Beryl Cook, who died in 2008, a British artist who depicted ordinary life from the mid-'70s onwards, who became famous for her larger-than-life characters, male and female. But before her artworks drew attention, she ran a B&B in Plymouth and began as a hobby painter.

One of her guests noticed her work and put her in touch with the local art gallery, and the subsequent exhibition was a huge success. She used to sell her paintings, Beryl Cook, for about £10. Now they fetch as much as £100,000. An exhibition of Beryl Cook's work has recently opened at a gallery in New York City showing some of her most famous paintings. I caught up with Beryl's daughter-in-law, Teresa Cook, and the art critic, Rachel Campbell-Johnson,

just before coming on air and began by asking Teresa what her mother-in-law would have made of having this moment in New York. Oh, it's absolutely lovely. We're really enjoying it. We need Paris in Rome next. I like it. The ambition is continuing. What was she like about ambition and, you know, getting people to engage with her work around the world? She was totally indifferent to being a personality and she just wanted her art to be known. So if it went far, that was great by her. And if it didn't, she just loved to paint.

She was a natural painter and she just loved to paint. And if people loved her paintings, that made her happy. Rachel, it wasn't the easiest start in some ways for her was it? I don't think she meant to be a famous artist in any way she started I believe or as she told me once in an interview just out of pleasure to fill in the quiet winter hours when the boarding house wasn't quite as busy and it was a hobby and it took off and became something phenomenally successful and it surprised her as much as anyone else, I think. Why do you think it became successful?

What was it about her drawings? I think they are so distinctive. You can hardly miss them. I think they're about as discreet as a drunken hen party along a seaside esplanade. There are these women they cavort about. They have rambunctious abandon they're hitching up their shiny party frocks they're flashing their frilly knickers they're wobbling their bosoms you can almost hear them bawling knees up mother brown this is a really infectious enthusiasm that she had for life you know it bursts out of her paintings like a sort

of stripper bursting out of a cake. And we love that. It ties in with a very English sensibility, I think, which you could date it back to Hogarth or to Rowlandson's sort of political caricatures, or maybe the saucy seaside postcard of someone like Donald McGill, which also, you know, Donald McGill was never rated as an artist, but is incredibly popular and recognised everywhere and actually he was rated by George Orwell rather oddly. That's interesting. The word bawdy comes to mind from what you've just said, that sort of seaside tradition and what it is in this country

and how some depict. You say, Theresa, to come back to you, this is your mother-in-law that we're talking about. Did you have a good relationship with your mother-in-law? Absolutely. She was very easygoing. We lived in the same house for years. That's a very good relationship. Yeah, that's right. She wasn't the typical mother-in-law, I've got to say. We got on very well indeed.

Did she show you when she was working on things or where did she like to work? Well, we lived in the basement and she had her studio on the second floor and the only time she ever used to appear in the basement was when she was stuck and so I knew that she was stuck and then we'd have a little chat things and go back and it was great fun seeing what she was doing it really was. Do you have a favourite? I do, yes, yes. It's a painting she gave me, well, maybe 50 years ago, maybe more. Right. And it was one of her early ones of two dancers. And two women or a man and a woman?

A man and a woman dancing. It was one of her more naive paintings, and I've always absolutely loved that. People have tried to buy it, but I've never wanted to part with it. Does it have a pride of place somewhere in your home? It does, yes. When she did start to have more success, how did that affect her in any way, Teresa? It didn't affect her at all, except she could pay the mortgage off on the house.

Yes. And she could have better holidays. But as for, like, fame going to her head or anything like that, it wasn't. I mean, she was quite old when she became famous. So it didn't affect her like that, you know. And she kept painting, presumably. She just loved to paint. She painted from she'd go out to shopping or something, then she'd paint all morning, have lunch, and then she'd paint until the light faded. Really?

And she did it as a job. You know, she was very disciplined. Yes. You always hear that about people who have a large body of work, that the discipline is there. And of course, sometimes the enjoyment, but also the pain if they're creating something. And as you say, they can get stuck. Was she a big hot drink taker? Was she the tea and the coffee or was she drinking something else? Absolutely.

She loved smoking and she loved eating humbugs. These were all pacifiers so that she could sit there painting. And what else? Chocolates. She loved chocolates. Oh, she sounds like she was having a good time when she was doing this,

when she wasn't getting stuck. Rachel, what was she like in person when you interviewed her? She was so shy, she wouldn't meet me in person. I had to do it over the telephone in the days before Zoom. She agreed to do it.

It was very rare and she was a very reticent person and she didn't actually want to meet because she said that would make her shy and she would rather talk to me on the telephone so yes as you say pre pre-zoom pre-people yes yeah very reticent very very humble she didn't you know i asked her about whether she felt resentful at all that she's collected i believe by a few regional galleries but she's not in the Tate or anywhere, which is odd for someone who's given such wide-ranging pleasure. And she said, I don't care one iota about the Tate.

All I want is to give people enjoyment. Yes. I mean, they're very famous people also now own her. It's written up, people like Yoko Ono. Yeah, I mean, I think that actually in future years, historians will actually be able to reconstruct a picture of our society from her works. I mean, who else has documented all those characters, you know, the man with the pint in the pub, the fashions for tattoos, the white stilettos, the kiss me quick hat, the, you know, the little chef uniform, nothing was too humble or too insignificant for her attention. You know,

she's, this is the woman who would paint the queue in the ladies loo who you know who remembers for us and paint our full english breakfast well i mean if if the queue continues to always be as long as it is for the ladies loo you've got quite a long time to be in it and that's that's often the problem if you're you're in one of these and there's some great characters it's a good inspiration she also told me that she carried a little camera she used to sketch quietly sort of in her bag but she also later she carried a little camera and she'd take little snaps of things that interested her whip it out quietly and take a little picture so so that she could capture the details for later that's interesting and and the idea of of there being snobbery towards her which you sort of touched on why would that be well she's not a painterly painter. I mean, you're not going to say there's some painters when the work actually, you know, the paint thinks for itself.

This isn't Titian sort of using the brush stroke as part of the work. It's very almost colour by numbers. You know, she could start in the top right hand corner and work her way down. And I think that's one reason why. And the other is there is something we have against, youbrow, has something against something which is too popular. If it's appealing to too many people, there must be something wrong about it. We want to elevate culture to something which is rather high above the common level. Well, I think it's something which everyone suffers. I mean, every boy band knows that you start out as a sort of indie band and everyone gets to love you.

And the whole sway that people move on and go and like somebody else because you become too popular. It's part of our English snobbery. Let's get rid of that. Also, we like an underdog, don't we? We don't like it when there's success as well, broadening out from the art world. Rachel, how do you think America will be,

or certainly this bit of America in New York, how do you think she'll be received? I think they will see her as very quirky and very strange. But what I think she will be very popular just simply because anyone can enjoy her. I mean, if I've got time, I can give you a tiny story about her. I live on Exmoor in the middle of nowhere. A farmer was in hospital. His mother was too old to drive to see him. He asked me to buy her a birthday present. A woman who really has very little time to enjoy any culture, feeding calves, feeding hens, doing farm work. What she wanted was a book of Beryl Cook. And this farmer who was ill, he told me, he said, Mother danced a jig when she opened that book. Beryl would have loved that.

She really would have. Yeah. That was our whole purpose. And if I can just quickly say, I was thinking about why her paintings were so popular. And when you start to look at them, you can see the emotion in whoever was being painted. So it just talks to people, you know. They can see what is in the painting, you know, what's behind it. Yes. And I love that you just had that reaction to how she would have reacted to hearing that story and the impression she was making. That's what she wanted. She wanted people to just enjoy her paintings. She also wanted to be recognised as a great painter, which she is, you know. Did she like New York? Did she ever go?

She loved New York. She'd been there a couple of times. She was great friends with the lady who owned the Russian tea rooms and she had pictures in there. And she loved America. She did. Well, America seemed to be loving her and as you say on to the next stop we'll see where it goes thank you so much to both of you for talking to me thank you thank you remembering beryl cook your messages have been brilliant this morning

julie says smartphones always remember going back to this that can be a godsend to children with special needs i.e dyslexia for time management, for those who don't have any sense of direction, for sat-navs. Although I can agree that some smartphone aspects, excuse me, certainly are not good. Another one, it's actually perhaps irresponsible to ban them, reads another argument here. And so it continues. Thank you, as always, for your comments. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Thank you so much for your time. Join us again for the next one. Hello, I'm Anita Arnand, and I'm hosting this year's BBC Wreath Lectures, which are on the

subject of freedom. The lectures are inspired by Franklin D. Roosevelt's famous Four Freedoms speech. And this year, we have not one, but four speakers. We look forward to a world founded upon four essential human freedoms. The first is freedom of speech and expression. The second is freedom of every person to worship God in his own way. The third is freedom from want. The fourth is freedom from fear. A quartet of speakers examine what freedom means today, beginning with the bestselling author Chimamanda Ngozi Adichie. Freedom of speech is, I think, essential to being human. You can hear all the lectures on Radio 4 and BBC Sounds.

Just search for The Wreath Lectures. I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy.

And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story. Settle in. Available now.