Woman's Hour - Kathy Burke, Menopause, Kajal Odedra

Episode Date: August 9, 2019

Kathy Burke: actor, comedian, theatre director and for many people, a national treasure. She's got a new TV series starting next week which explores what it means to be a woman today. It looks at attitudes to beauty, motherhood and relationships. So what's she learnt from the experience? There's been a lot of publicity this week around a surgical procedure designed to delay the menopause by 20 years. Today we discuss whether the menopause really needs fixing. To talk about it, we have Dr. Melanie Davies who's a Consultant Gynaecologist and Obstetrician; Emma Hartley who's a journalist who's written about the procedure recently, and Allison Pearson who's written a novel about the menopause called How Hard Can It Be? If you're passionate about making a change, how do you persuade others to follow you? What do you have to do to create a winning campaign and why are some of the most successful ones started by young women? We hear from Kajal Odedra, author of ‘Do Something: Activism For Everyone? We also speak to Bella Lack, who's a 16 year old environmental campaigner.

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hi, this is Jane Garvey and welcome to the Woman's Hour podcast, Friday the 9th of August 2019. What have we got today? We have a lot of Kathy Burke, who went down really well. She's talking about her documentary series, which starts next week. In the light of all the talk there's been in the newspapers and online over the last week about delaying the menopause, we'll talk about that too. And you can hear about female activists in the company of the teenage campaigner Bella Lack and Kajal

Adedra, who's the UK director of Change.org. First then to Kathy Burke. She's known these days as a director, but she's been a noted actor, of course, in the past as well. She's made these documentaries for Channel 4. They're called All Woman. There are three programmes. They are about appearance, about motherhood and about relationships. And Kathy told me who decided on the subject matter for the programmes. Well, the production company, it's a very young company called Flickr

and the executive producer is a really nice young woman called Colleen and she just came to me with the idea and she said look we we want to do a series of documentaries about women also made entirely by women which I was surprised to hear had never been done before, like an entire female crew doing a documentary series. So I thought, well, that was quite interesting in itself. So, yeah, so I think she was the sort of instigator of it all and what they wanted to talk about, you know. Well, you're bang on point as far as i'm concerned um the program about appearance and about cosmetic surgery is a real insight into

the genuine pressure that a lot of young women feel and i just want to play a short clip from that very first program this is laura she's a shop assistant she's only 20 and she's telling you about why she's planning a breast enlargement. I want to go up to a sort of like a double D, E. Right. Which is obviously quite a big change. Do you mind me asking why you're going to do this? I'm doing it partially for myself, partially.

I can't lie, there isn't sort of like social media influence and celebrity influence because at the end of the day, like you can never sort of win on a level of confidence comparing yourself to other people. And obviously you're not born obviously perfect at all. Sort of like you're sort of paid to be like that and you want to be as perfect as you can no matter what it takes. Listen, I think you're extremely beautiful, you know? And like the thought of you sort of going under the knife is, to me, a little bit, oh, God, you know.

The whole thing itself is quite scary, but right now I think it is what is going to make me happy because for a long time I have sort of had the problem with my own appearance and I've always wanted to make myself look better. See, I find that such a shame. She was such a lovely young woman, which, of course, people of our age look at women of 20 and think, what are you worrying about?

Absolutely. But she was genuinely worried. She really was. I mean, it was just sort of taking over her whole life, actually. I don't know whether they kept this bit in, but I did say to her, what is it that you want in life? And she said, I want the whole world to love me. And I just said, but you're asking the impossible, babe,

because the whole world, that's sort of ridiculous. You know, it's sort of just so extreme. And, yeah, my heart went out to her, actually. I really liked her, but I just thought, this is so sad that this is all you're worried about. She had a really lovely boyfriend, gorgeous young girl. And like you say, Jane, these young women women but we didn't realize it when we were young that when you're young you're sort of you're just beautiful you know you just are you got

beautiful skin and youth is beauty you know it totally is but you're in the moment you don't appreciate it because you spend your whole life hating yourself like that poor woman there you're really there's a raw honesty at the heart of everything you do which i think is why you are you are genuinely well loved and you'll hate hearing that but i put no i put it to you you're pulling your face but you really are because you're authentic and you you are yourself but you say in the first program oh it's nonsense this beauty is in the eye of the beholder thing that is cobblers and anyone who tries to pretend that appearance doesn't matter they are lying yeah because you know because it is a lie because everyone is still obsessed with looks and the way women look more than men i think men get it in the neck now as well um you know you look at these male contestants on things like

love island i mean they all i mean they all look the same to me these boys because they've all got the same bodies do you know i mean those bodies never existed no never existed you know what i mean i was like you're lucky to you know like a fella you know they all had um like sunburn marks and t-shirt marks and stuff like that when you you saw their chests, you know. But it is, it's just become, it's become like an obsession. And it's the selfie generation. This is just what's happened.

Everyone's become very obsessed with how other people look. I mean, even 10, 15 years ago, I don't think anybody would have dared tell me to my face that I'm fat. But now people are very happy to tell me about the fact that I'm fat, never a doctor, but you know, just somebody that you sat having a chat with and, you know, and, oh, what exercise do you do? Do you do you, I mean, do you try to keep healthy? And it's like, no, I am really healthy. I mean, I might be fat, but it doesn't mean to say I'm not healthy, you know. Do you think about, this is a ridiculous question in a way,

but especially in the light of what you've just said, but do you think about what you eat or are you just? Well, I'm a vegetarian. Right, so you do then? Of course, because I have to. Because, you know, there's more choice now. Although they will, I mean, all this vegan stuff. I wish they'd realised don't chuck seeds in everything, you know what I mean?

Because that gets on my nerves. But, yeah, I haven't eaten meat for 30 years. So I've sort of been an incredibly healthy eater. There's a big thing on Twitter today about, oh, you know, KFC and Pizza hut are going to support trump and don't i've never been in a kfc even when i was young i've never eaten i don't eat that crap food you know i don't like it um but i look like i look like i'm constantly at the kebab shop do you know what i mean so it what I mean? So it could be frustrating

because I feel like I'm shouting at everybody all the time, I'm a vegetarian! I've just got you onto this. I'd rather regret it now. The plastic surgeon you consult for the purposes of the documentary shows you what the new, improved Kathy Burke could look like. Oh, that was funny. Well, it came at quite a price. I can't remember how much he was going to charge. Oh, it was funny. Well, it came at quite a price.

I can't remember how much he was going to charge. Oh, it was going to be 20 grand to look like a Disney cartoon, basically. Yeah, see, that's what puzzles me about plastic surgery, is that even if you have it, even if you have the best plastic surgery, you'll still look like someone who's had really expensive plastic surgery. Yeah, and, you know, and this chap, Dr De Silva, his name was, he was a very nice chap, actually, but I just thought, you know,

you're just making a lot of money out of people's insecurities, you know, because it was all about, that's the thing now, it's like we're trying to make people feel better about themselves. And I just think, well, stop telling them they look like a piece of poo and then they will feel better about themselves you know just give some positive vibes and positive speak rather than putting them under the knife i think because i got sick years ago i know what it's like to go under the knife when you're sick so it's like why would you want to do that without it being for a proper valid

reason you also explore motherhood and its appeal. And this is something that you have never been remotely interested in. Well, that's not entirely true. I mean, I did get sort of moody broody late 20s, early 30s. There was somebody that I knew who I thought, oh, I'd love to have a baby with him. Do you know what I mean? But he had a girlfriend.

So that was a bit of an impossibility so I did think about having a baby um but it was never really my heart's desire you know I think if I'd really wanted a kid I would have had one um but it and then I found out later because I've got this weird blood condition called Hughes Syndrome that's the layman's term and I met Professor Hughes who discovered this syndrome

him and his team and it's a blood clotting disease and it affects the immune system anyway and I had a lovely chat with him and he said oh did you ever Anyway, and I had a lovely chat with him, and he said, oh, did you ever want children? And I said, well, no, I was, you know, not really intensely, you know. And he said, well, you're very lucky then, he said, because I could never have had them because of my blood condition.

It would never have happened for me. So I sort of felt quite lucky, actually. I just thought, blimey, I'm really glad that it wasn't my heart's desire because that would have been so devastating, you know. Well, what I didn't know until I watched these programmes is that your own mum passed away very sadly when you were really, really young. Yeah, I was 18 months. So you never, well, obviously you have no memory of your mum being around.

No, no memory at all. So who bothered you? Well, I had a foster mum for a bit called Joan. She was great. My godmother Nellie, she was great. And actually, I don't want to embarrass him, he'll be listening to this, but my big brother John, he was my mother figure, really.

He took care of me. My dad got all the praise, but it was really my brothers that did all the figure, really. He took care of me. My dad got all the praise, but it was really my brothers that did all the work, actually. Give me an example of something you would do for you, John. Well, sort of any, cook my dinners, you know what I mean? Take me to school, make sure that I was washed and dressed and, you know, and he used to do all this, because they were like ten and 8 when Mum died.

So they had the memory of Mum, so they knew... What she did. ..and what life was like with a mum, which was great. And then suddenly life was pretty horrible, actually. And... But no, you know, he just sort of did... He got on with it. Back then, especially the boys, they weren't given any guidance or care.

This is in the 60s. They just got on with it. And then when I was big enough, I had my chores. You know, I had, right, you do this now. You know what I mean? We're not just here to wait on you. You're big enough to cart that bag of laundry down to the laundrette, So do it. Get it on your

back and go to the laundrette. You also are really honest about the appeal of the single life, which does appeal to you. And actually it appeals to me, frankly. Watching the third programme, you meet some, there's a fantastic Anglican nun

who just is so just delirious in her own skin that she's an example to all of us but why is it that women like that threaten they threaten the status quo a bit don't they? Yeah I don't know I'm just fed up of everybody having an opinion about us and what we should and shouldn't be doing

it's like come on now you know this is 2019 it's sort of ridiculous I mean I love that nun, Sister Elizabeth. She was great crack, actually. She... Anglican nun, we should say. Yeah, yeah.

Not that there's anything wrong with Catholic ones. No, but she was very giggly and had a real twinkle in her eye. And I did admire it, you know. But then that's an extreme example of living a single life. Oh, yeah. No, I'm not necessarily saying... Take me to a nunnery. Yes, and stay there. Although there is an appeal, clearly, and she was a cracking example of it. Why is it, do you think, then, that as a wider society,

we are slightly questioning of people who follow the single path and are at ease with it because it frightens people because i think the majority of human beings are really scared of being lonely and people that aren't scared of being lonely you know we're alone or alone yeah yeah because i don't feel loneliness, really. I never really have done, actually. And I think it's because when I was a kid, because there was no proper guidance there,

I was, I just, I mean, I was feral. I just ran free and did what I wanted when I wanted. This is around Islington, wasn't it? Around Islington, you know. And so I've always sort of, I've always been quite happy with my own company, you

know. It doesn't mean to say I'm not social, you know, I see my pals and I don't go out as much as I used to because, you know, I'm 55 now, I just can't be bothered with it. But, you know, I can sit in like this week, I didn't really talk to it there was in the middle of the week i don't think i spoke to anyone for two days not even i

didn't even give anyone a ring or and it was just lovely i sort of i sort of feel like that i'm constantly meditating but yeah but you say you were on your own for two days or not communicating you're on you're on twitter oh yes you are the uncrowned queen of profanity twitter i still live like this before i went on twitter i only started going on twitter really because i was getting really really depressed because of the menopause and that was doing my head in and when i was going through the menopause i just didn't want to go anywhere i didn't want to work i didn't want to do anything because i've got this blood condition it made it sort of extra nasty for me. Well, it's almost like you're producing this programme.

It's seamless today, very unusually, because we are going on to talk about the menopause in a moment. You're very welcome to stay. But would you, if you'd been offered the opportunity to swerve the menopause altogether, would you have done it? What, you mean in the programme or in life? No, just if life had offered you, if medicine had offered you the opportunity to avoid the menopause

or delay it, what would you have done? Yeah, I think, well, I just wanted to get it over and done with, you see. Well, I think that's interesting, yeah. But then how's this going to happen? You've got to pay for this? This isn't going to be for every woman, is it? No. No, well, then I sort of think it's out of order

because, you know, you're talking about a certain amount of people that could pay for the luxury of not having the menopause. It's not something that's going to be put on the NHS, is it, really? No, I mean, there are treatments which we'll talk about, which would hugely help women who've had cancer and they will assume it will assume be NHS treatments. But just a quick word about I mentioned your authenticity and you are from a working class Irish background in North London. There are still a lot of, frankly, posh, well connected people in the thespian world, aren't there? That hasn't, I mean, you could argue, I think people do, it's gone backwards, all that really. Yeah, I mean, I mean, I don't really mix with that many people. My great friend from theatre land is Dominic Dromgoole,

who used to run the Globe Theatre up until a couple of years ago. He's been my constant theatre pal for 30 years, actually. And he, on paper, is one of those posh ones, do you know what I mean? Because, I don't know, where did he go? Oxford or Cambridge? I think he went to... Oh, I don't know where he went go Oxford or Cambridge I don't know where he went there he had all that but he's an incredibly grounded and down to earth person so I've always stuck with Dominic

and I've not really I don't bother myself too much with everybody else really I just want to get a gig Well you have played Royal because you played Bloody Mary, didn't you? Yeah, and I played the Queen Mum in Psycho Bitches on Sky Art. So, yeah, I've done two royals, actually.

So you see. Yeah. And I know that directing is your thing really now. Yeah, that's my heart's desire. Sure, but acting misses you a bit. Well, yeah, but I don't miss it. I mean, it was really getting on my nerves. And particularly, I mean, it sounds incredibly ungrateful,

but particularly, you know, suddenly I was getting movie roles and I was, you know, seen as a movie star, but I was a very reluctant movie actress. I didn't really want it, to be honest. That wasn't how I ever saw myself, you know. I much preferred being on the fringe and, you know, and doing telly, you know, to films. I much preferred doing telly, actually. Can you give us just a brief bit of the Queen Mum from Psycho? No, I can't.

No, OK, fair enough. Oh, the interview's ended on a sour note. I thought we were getting on quite well. Cathy, I've always wanted to meet you. Oh, likewise, Jane. It's been brilliant to have you on. Thank you. Thank you very much.

And I really do recommend these documentaries. They start Channel 4, 10 o'clock, Tuesday of next week. Yes. The first one is about appearance. If you've got young women in your life or in the family, you really will want to watch this show because it will disturb you, but it will also inform you. I think it's important that people see it. Thank you've got young women in your life or in the family, you really will want to watch this show because it will disturb you but it will also inform you. I think it's important

that people see it. Thank you very much. Take care of yourself. Now, Monday, we're talking about the long summer holidays. I mean, I know in Scotland they actually finish in a day or so, but certainly in the rest of the country, the kids are still off and likely to be off really until the beginning of September.

How are you feeling the time? Has it been easy to do it? Have the children been cooperative? Are you a grandparent who's taking part in caring for the rest of the family? And do you feel that that is a bit of a big ask and perhaps you're feeling exhausted? We want to hear from you for Monday's programme, the long school summer holidays. Is it time we had a rethink about this huge period of time away from school which actually can be such a challenge for families. So contact

Woman's Hour via the website bbc.co.uk slash womanshour. Almost ran out of puff there but not quite. Quick recovery at the end. Now we're talking about the menopause because, as I was saying to Cathy, there was all that stuff in the newspapers over the weekend, particularly in the Sunday Times, about the ProFam Clinic in Birmingham. Now, it says it offers the world's first therapy to delay menopause using the patient's own natural hormone preservation as part of fertility preservation.

Now, that article and that clinic has prompted just a wave of discussion about the menopause and I'm joined now this morning by Melanie Davis, Dr Melanie Davis who's a consultant gynaecologist at University College Hospital in London. Welcome Melanie. Alison Pearson is here, the author of the book How Hard Can It Be which she says is the only novel about the menopause. It's quite a bold claim. She's also a columnist for The Telegraph. Good to see you, Alison. And Emma Hartley is here, the freelance journalist who started all this, really, and wrote the article about the pro-fam clinic in The Sunday Times. So, Emma, tell us about what you thought this article was essentially about,

about what the story was here, as far as you were concerned. Well, it all started for me back in November last year when I watched Mariella Frostrup's documentary. Which was on BBC last year, wasn't it? That's right. I think it might still be on the iPlayer. And there was just one, almost a throwaway line in it, by Dr Sheila Lane in Oxford about how pretty soon women may not have to go through the menopause at all.

And I kind of clutched my chair at that point and went oh my god why isn't the documentary about this because actually we did ask her about it on Women's Hour actually but carry on yeah so I went looking basically and what I found after several months research was two things first of all that there for a long time had been a discussion about the possibility of using this technique which has been used for 15 years in younger women who've had chemotherapy and become infertile, and using that technique in older women who are going through the menopause naturally to kickstart their ovaries again, effectively. And there is a second piece of technology, which is in the pipeline, which is about stem cells, which, when we're at school, we are told that women are born with all of the eggs that they're ever

going to have and that when they've depleted them through menstruation that that's when they go into menopause however there has been a stem cell discovered which when stimulated will produce more eggs which means that theoretically at the moment there is the possibility that women eventually may not have to go through the menopause at all and that it can be done in a non-invasive way. And you think that latter bit of research has the greater potential? I do, yes, because it's, well, the technique that Simon Fishler is offering in Birmingham is very expensive. And invasive. And invasive, therefore potentially dangerous.

A lot of women don't get on well with that. A lot of people don't get on well with anaesthetics. Whereas the other piece of technology actually holds out the possibility of being able to simply have an injection or something. Okay, this is the future. Melanie, what do you think? You're the expert. I was on holiday when this story broke, actually. My Twitter feed went mad.

I think the stem cell research is genuinely exciting but it's basic science i don't think this is going to come in in my lifetime the ovarian tissue freezing has been used in fact i've been taking ovarian tissue about 20 years ago now first birth is now 15 years ago but we're talking of a technique that's been introduced to help cancer patients to have children in future and that technique's now been seen in a commercial light as a way to restore natural hormones very attractive proposition but i think actually honestly that this is a well-organized marketing campaign and we've fallen for it have we well you said it well yeah i am saying it but i'm here because i think i should take every opportunity uh you know we do need to talk more about menopause and we

need to get good information out to your listeners yeah we do need to get good information out there's no doubt about that allison what's your take on all this i'm horrified jane really to be honest i um there are four women around this table today talking about menopause all the people who were foregrounded in this story were men male researchers male scientists um what are we doing uh what are we doing um tampering with the natural female cycle the female body uh for the convenience of society when i firmly believe that work and society should be adjusting itself to the female biology okay not the other way around when I firmly believe that work and society should be adjusting itself to the female biology not the other way around. I mean that's an obvious and good point

but just let me put the term out were there any women involved in this research? Professor Evelyn Telfer up in Edinburgh I interviewed for the article with her clinical colleague Dr Richard Anderson so she's very eminent in her field and she played quite a major role in that but it was simon fishel from this pro fam company uh protecting fertility and menopause protecting fertility melanie will tell us more about that but that's a dodgy claim in itself this man was saying uh okay great women can nail the career is what he said in their 30s and then oh if they haven't got around to having a baby by their early 40s, don't worry, we can fetch one of these out of the freezer. No, that's completely wrong.

We should not be encouraging women to further delay having their babies. This is the work of millennia. Why do we want to have women having babies in their 40s or possibly in their 50s? What we want to do is we want to encourage women to be having their babies at a time when it's safest for them and their baby. Okay, Melanie. Yes, well the work of millennia has been overtaken hasn't it by societal change. Unfortunately our biology hasn't changed. Another time I think I might have appeared on this programme was when we wrote an editorial in the BMJ about the safest time to have a baby and were absolutely attacked by the media.

But it is true that the safest time to have a baby is when you're under 35. Can I just say that the story I wrote in the Sunday Times was not about fertility? No, no, no, we absolutely acknowledge that. It was about menopause and plenty of women choose not to have children. And yet this story actually applies to all women, not simply to women who choose to have children.

And we'll just move a little nearer the microphone. So to make it about fertility I think is reductive. It's like saying that the only use that women have to society is as reproductive organs in relation to men. I think that this story is really about women's health because when women reach menopause

80% of them have terrible, terrible symptoms. It's a life-changing event. Terrible, terrible symptoms not in every single case. There are plenty of women listening who've barely noticed the menopause, genuinely. Apparently 20% of women don't notice the menopause, but I suppose because it only ever happens to you, to oneself, you know, you are sort of tempted to universalise your own experience.

But the data shows that 80% of women do experience menopause in a way that is life-changing. That's very good non-invasive treatment. I've had fantastic HRT, which has really dealt with all of the symptoms. And also this idea of postponing menopause. Why do we want to postpone menopause? After menopause comes freedom and strength and wisdom and not being you know tied to the merry-go-round of well not arthritis not necessarily not if you're actually taking

um oestrogen and progesterone which i do every day okay let's talk then about the wonders of hrt because there are many women who um swear by hrt melanie and it really has been in some cases a lifesaver um but very few women actually are on it statistically it's what 12 percent 12 percent and and Emma's right you know 80 percent of women do get symptoms and about one in four women say their life is really severely affected and only half yes only half of them are actually getting HRT right why so low then it? It's partly the history about HRT being probably overpromoted some years ago. Then trials coming out saying that HRT has side effects. In particular, there was a cancer scare.

Now I think finally we've got more balance in our understanding. And for most women, healthy women, HRT is very safe and it is highly effective. There's nothing else that's effective. What I understand from the research I did is that there seems to be a deficit in the information that GPs have at their fingertips. So if women turn up at their GP and they present with menopausal symptoms,

70% of them apparently are offered antidepressants instead of HRT, which is terrible. Well, depression can of course be a symptom of the menopause. A rational symptom to having terrible health problems. But why do you think, Melanie, GPs appear to be so poorly educated on the menopause and HRT? That is a really good question. I think that the general practitioners actually are overwhelmed with work. And I think that I can't put all the blame on GPs, but I do think there's a big educational information issue. I also think that we have to give information directly to women

so that women know what to go and ask for. We need to be more assertive as women. Well, women are often battered away by GPs who don't know. In fact, I went privately and went to see my GP, very good GP, and she looked on the computer and she said, oh, yes, you are entitled to this. That was news to her. Doctors say that in their vast medical training, Jane, that they had three hours, one afternoon to talk about the menopause that affects half the human race. So I don't think that that's another thing we need to have menopause taken seriously as part of medical training. Yes.

I'm just, by the way, anyone can take part on Twitter. My screen wasn't working. It now is. So if you want to make contact with Live Radio 4, you can do so. It's at BBC Women's Hour on Twitter. But a lot of people are saying, here's Alicia, I would far rather have periods than the menopause. Mine has been difficult. I mean, I think there is a misconception.

You can be menopausal and still have periods, can't you, for a start? Yeah. I can't be the only one, she said desperately. Usually symptoms of menopause start before the periods cease. So actually you've got both for a wonderful part of your life. Absolutely. And often the periods are particularly difficult, actually, for those last few years before they start.

What about the fact that because we are now living longer there is a real fear that women's bodies were not designed if you like for decades after our procreative powers evaporated and we are up against it unless we protect ourselves with for example HRT. That is a real issue, isn't it, Melanie? It is. I do have to put in a plug here for good lifestyle. And I think whether you're a man or a woman, you can postpone ageing by a good lifestyle. That's not rocket science about avoiding smoking and not drinking too much and taking regular exercise. But for women, the loss of oestrogen does lead to an effect of bone thinning it leads

to increased risk of cardiac cardiovascular disease my personal thing is i'm a runner i really enjoy running i have done um ever since i was 12 and i've now got arthritis i'm not actually menopausal yet but i've already got arthritis and i can see that it's going to be an issue already which means i'm not going to it's going to be far more difficult and actually that is how i maintain my health so i i'm worried about it because there was this sorry there was there was this implication that you know that there would be this surgically invasive thing that you would go in and take out a sliver of ovary and freeze it and then you know pop it back in but there are risks to that you know we're talking about the risks of menopause but there

are risks to the actual procedure and what i felt in the coverage was that it was all hooray. We don't have to get we don't have to be an old bat anymore. Exactly. I mean, it's as though the streets of Britain were just cluttered with these grey haired, sweating women and they must be got rid of. And you just never hear about the male equivalents. Where are the male Radio 4 presenters of my age prepared to come on and discuss their own depleted powers in middle age. Why is ageing in women seen as a problem and not seen as a problem in men? Because our health is different. I suppose it kind of falls off a cliff slightly.

Yes, but in evolution, Emma, in evolution, there was a study not that long ago showing that the reason human beings evolved so brilliantly was because the grandmother played a pivotal role in the raising of the children and the safety of the group and it wasn't the hunter-gatherers who who kept us going it was the grandmother so I think this idea that we would you know outlaw menopause and grandmothers is deleterious to the human race apart from anything else I don't think anybody's talking about outlawing anything. All these technologies do

offer options to people that they can take up if they choose. Some people, Emma, would interpret these options as slight misogynist and somewhat sinister even. What do you say about that? How is... I don't understand. You don't

think that there is a misogynist element? No, when I'm thinking about my health after 50 I'm thinking about my health and I'm a woman thinking about my own health. So I don't understand. You don't think that there is a misogynist element to all this? No, when I'm thinking about my health after 50, I'm thinking about my health, and I'm a woman thinking about my own health. So I don't think there's anything particularly misogynist about that. OK. I took your point earlier about Alison, about how most of the people who are foregrounded in the article

were men, barring Evelyn Telfer. But that is not how the research started out. I mean, science moves forward in concert, basically. And I was looking at speaking to many people, many of whom were women, about this. It just so happens that in the end, the person who took the leap, as he described it, was Simon Fischel.

But Simon Fischel specifically said, it's OK, women, you can nail your career in your 30s. In Telegraph he said that, not in my article. Well, he has gone on the record saying that. And I thought, it's not for you, matey. women you can nail your career in your 30s in telegraph he said that not in my article well and that's because he has gone on the record saying that and i thought it's not for you matey to be telling women when they can have their babies women all the gynecologists i've spoken to have been saying we should be discouraging women from postponing uh reproduction because it's dangerous well let's go because melanie's already made that point and it is an important one, but make it again, Melanie.

It's really important to get this right because taking your ovary out at 40 and putting it back in at 50 is not going to delay the menopause for very long. This is over hyped and there have been headlines saying you can postpone the menopause by 20 years. Yeah, that wasn't correct. I don't know where that figure of 20 years came from. It's way, I mean

we have no data on 20 years. Well, the thing was indefinitely was what people said, because we don't have no data on 20 years. Well, the thing was indefinitely was what people said, because we don't have any data on it yet. We have HRT data over the last 50 years. All right, I want you to finish this and round it off for us, Melanie, because you are our gynaecologist and obstetrician. First of all, if you're a menopausal woman and you're having a tough time and you're not on HRT, should you actively pursue it?

You should definitely actively pursue getting good information for you as an individual. Right. And if we can't get that locally with our GPs, then I, as a representative of the profession, need to do something about it, get the information out there directly to women and to educate our GPs, because I think HRT is underused in this country. Right. And that's one point. And for our younger listeners, women in their late 20s, what's your advice to them? For fertility or menopause?

Fertility. Fertility. It's better to have the children, and careers last a long time. Well, I'm a living example of that. I think we all are. Clinging on. But if you're going to want to preserve your fertility, a long time. Well, I'm a living example of that. I think we all are. Clinging on. But if you're going to want to preserve your fertility, there was an interesting point in your article, actually, that Simon Fishel offered ovarian tissue to his 30-year-old

daughter. I've just been on holiday for my daughter's 30th birthday. I talked to her about egg freezing. We had had a glass of wine beforehand. But I think that is a more proven technique for somebody who needs to preserve fertility but the group i'm looking after the group who really need this are the cancer patients yes healthy women should make different decisions right but can i just pick you up on that you the royal college of obs and gyne's representative on this program you have had a conversation are you the rcog representative uh no i don't think so, I'm afraid. No, OK, forgive me. In that case, sorry, I've got the wrong information.

I could be a variety of representatives, but I'm giving you my own views today. I know you are, but you were on holiday with your daughter and you talked about egg freezing. They all asked me. There were eight of them. All young women, you know, setting out on their lives. How about saying that a proven technique for fertility, Melanie,

is having sex with somebody and getting pregnant that's that's been that's been tested over quite a long period of time which is that these new technologies are actually the second bookend to the project that was started in 1960s of allowing women uh domination of their own biology in a way to avoid the tyranny of it that has um sort of plagued our lives by you know bringing an end to the biological clock which is a form of control well hopefully we might be able to carry on this conversation in the podcast i hope we can but thank you all very much indeed for being with us appreciate it thank you melanie and allison and emma thank you so much to talk about here please do get involved

on social media at bbc woman's hour it's a good time really to talk about women and activism. How do you actually create a winning campaign? And why are some of the most successful ones said to be started by young women? And we can bring in Kajal Adedra, who's author of Do Something, Activism for Everyone. She's the UK director of Change.org. Welcome, Kajal. Thank you. And also with us, the 16-year-old environmental campaigner, Bella Lack. Bella, good morning

to you. Good morning. Hi, Bella. Now, first of all, can we just hear a little bit about the campaigns that you've been involved in? Yes, I do lots of social media campaigning to engage young people and I've also worked on petitions actually with change.org so lots of it lots of my activism is using the means I have like social media like YouTube and petition petitions but now I'm hoping to expand out into more bold action so rather than just campaigning to governments and to politicians I want to show other young people that activism can also involve acting on an individual level and a personal level.

What sort of causes have you been involved with? So one of them is the youth strikes for climate. And that's one of the environmental campaigns I do. And another petition has been focusing on palm oil and another one on wild animals and circuses. So there are a range of issues, but broadly speaking, I focus on environmental and animal welfare issues. Now, in terms of the circuses, you've had success, haven't you? Yeah, only a few weeks ago, actually, just before Michael Gove was moved, he announced that circuses would be phased out by next year. And that many, many organizations have been campaigning on this.

But I hope the petition helped to catalyze because I did a petition on that. And I hope that all those people that signed it and the petition to go have helped to catalyse that and outlaw the use of wild animals and circuses in the UK. Well, Kajal, it's easy to be cynical about change.org. And I will be for the purposes of this interview, because anyone, anyone can sit in bed and sign a petition. So I actually think that's an amazing thing. I grew up in a white working class community. My parents are immigrants. And we I experienced racial abuse on a daily basis. It was tough. And if I'd been

able to connect to people who had the same beliefs as me, I could have grown grown in confidence, but also I could have had my voice heard. But also that accessibility, you know, people with disabilities, you know, young people, women who don't traditionally have access to have their voices heard are able to do it with these online tools. But, OK, is it the same people consistently signing petitions? No, I mean, so just a little plug for Change.org is that we've got 17 million users in the UK. So that's a real cross section of society. Does that mean you've got 17 million people who've signed at least one petition? Exactly yeah and that's one in four people in the country and that ranges from people who are campaigning to save like a local pub from

being closed down to campaigning around climate change so you know politics is everything it can be you know the bins that are being taken out or you know your bus fare so um and people are acting about these things on a daily basis hundreds how typical is is bella who's who's only 16 uh she's a young woman she feels passionately and she's made real change she's been part of real change i mean so i think bella's amazing for one thing is um she's incredible and she was very humble she didn't actually speak about the victory straight away but she's see a lot of young women on our platform who are winning. So interestingly, men start more petitions, women win more. Okay, what are the figures?

So we actually did an analysis of 46,000 petitions on the site in the last year and found that women under 35 were more successful and so they were reaching victory more than men and that to me speaks to the fact that once you give especially young women who don't often have the chance to get their voice heard once you give them the tools they show how absolutely incredible they are because of course bella you can't vote not yet no and that's why i think some people call it clicktivism using social media as a tool for activism but there are so many demographics in society um and these platforms provide accessibility to everyone and i think it's so so important and it there's there's not a single um hint of laziness in it I think it's

just people using the means they have uh to do something about something that they're passionate about well it's turned you into what I've seen you doing public speaking that that's not easy to do at any age is it no well um I'm that's the thing about using social media again, because I'm usually quite an introverted person. But I think having those tools allowed me to have a platform and also reach out to a community of young people. Because before I started acting on things I was passionate about, it was a bit ostracizing because I didn't see many young people. This was a few years ago, I didn't see many young people, especially females involved in activism. But now, obviously, with the youth strikes for climate, there are millions of people, millions of young people globally.

And do you feel safer doing it this way, actually, as a young woman of 16? Well, I think now because there's such a growing community, I think it's a very safe community and very supportive um obviously on social media though I still receive lots of uh opposition so in a way social media adds an element of safety but it also adds an element of hostility which I receive probably on a daily basis well I ignore them these people are idiotic um Bella thank you very much quick word from yeah can I just say so um one of the reasons I actually really wanted to write the book was that if you look around all of the decision makers in society, they generally, you know, go to the same schools or go to the same universities and socialise in the same circles. So politics, media, law. And but what we what I found is that when you actually give people like Bella the tips and the tricks and the confidence to speak out, we actually see incredible things happening in society.

So you see the tampon tax being ended. You see women on banknotes. And I really want to make sure that people realise the power they have. And really quickly, if you sign a petition, is your data safe? Absolutely. We're completely within GDPR. Your data is – data privacy is really important to us. Kajal Ededra, thank you very much.

Thank you. Kajal's from UKchange.org, and you also heard from the very impressive Bella Lack. Kajal Odedra of Change.org, and before Kajal, the young campaigner Bella Lack. So to your thoughts on the programme today. Cassie says, it was just wonderful to hear Cathy speaking out

on what so many of us have been thinking for so long. Brilliant to get it out in the open. Really looking forward to watching the series. Yeah, I've had a preview of all three of them. And honestly, Cassie, I don't think you'll be disappointed. They're really watchable, but they're about really important subjects.

But they're just, she's really good company, Cathy, basically, as she illustrated in the conversation. Rosemary likes her too. Cathy Burke is an absolute treasure and delight. Aisha, loving Cathy Burke, incredibly authentic national treasure. She should

take over Woman's Hour. Actually, that's a very good point. If we can get her for next year, we'll get Cathy Burke to do a takeover edition. Or perhaps Aisha means just Cathy Burke takeover woman's hour full stop which would also be a good idea. Francesca Forber says Kathy Burke I love

you. Suzanne Smith I'm stuck at home feeling poorly the joyous Kathy Burke is cheering me up I'm single and delighted to be so thank you Kathy and Willem just says Kathy Burke is fantastic Erica listening to Kathy and I agree So thank you, Kathy. And Willem just says, Kathy Burke is fantastic. Erica, listening to Kathy, and I agree with everything she's saying and really pleased she's made these programmes.

I think it all boils down to consumerism and capitalism. Make people insecure about their bodies and guess what? They'll spend money trying to improve them. We must install strong self-esteem in children and young people. Looks do not define you, but it's very hard for them in this day and age to fight against this. Chloe, I love Kathy Burke, re-treatments to avoid the menopause, which would mostly be for people that can afford to pay. It's out of order, says Kathy, and she's quite right. From Steph, spot on observations from Kathy Burke on being a single woman.

Solitude, loneliness, class and identity in such warm, encouraging and intuitive language. Plus, that voice is just a joy to listen to. Fifteen minutes wasn't long enough. Actually, Steph, she got almost 18. I think it was. And that's for a woman's hour interview. That's very, very very long I could go on reading out these tributes to Kathy Burke but there are so many it's just it's ridiculous anyway suffice to say she's clearly much loved and I think she's probably quite reluctant to admit this but I think she knows um that people really do like Kathy Burke um on to the menopause which is the other subject that really got your attention this morning. This listener says, I haven't missed having a monthly period for the last 20 years.

It was so worth going through the menopause. Dorcas says, why would any woman want to delay the menopause and prolong having periods? This is an anonymous email. Menopause is an important issue, but I'm fed up of just hearing women in their 40s and 50s talking about it. I was diagnosed with cancer this year at 32, and because of my treatment, I have entered an early menopause. Whilst women who hit menopause naturally can have a tough time, those like me who hit it 20 years too soon have a really terrible time. All the symptoms come at once, and it's like being hit by a train.

I don't doubt it. People like this correspondent really do deserve our sympathy because that must be an incredibly tough call. Lynn says, I'm 61. Menopause has been life-changing for me, but I only understood that last week. Many trips to the GP have resulted in antidepressants. Being told I'm just distressed and to change my life, And Viv says, I'm now experiencing rather than the migraines I experience with periods every month for the last 15 years. Fiona says I'd give my right arm not to have menopausal symptoms. I'm perimenopausal

and not entitled to any hormonal help from my GP until my periods stop. Fiona goes on, it's hell and not empowering. What utter tosh. I'm sweating, my face melts off and I feel utterly unattractive. I think you need to go back to your GP, Fiona. Having said that, because we've been talking this morning about HRT and how you should ask for it if you think it might help you. A lot of you are pointing out, including some GPs who listen to the programme, that at the moment you can't get hold of every sort of HRT. And I think that's a subject we're going to try and talk about on Woman's Hour next week,

because there does appear to be an issue with the supply of HRT in Britain at the moment. Sorry, I've just banged my microphone with my pen there. Apologies. And Rambling Leah says, Rambling Leah, I'm sorry. As a post-menopausal woman, not enough is said about how brilliant it is to get to this stage.

OK, well, let's say it now. I don't doubt for a second it must be wonderful to go through the menopause and come out the other side. Yes, it can be a fantastically empowering part of your life if you continue to have reasonable health, of course. Absolutely brilliant. Right, that wraps it up for this week. Don't forget the weekend Woman's Hour edition is tomorrow afternoon live on Radio 4. Well, not live on Radio 4. I'm recording it this morning, but available on Radio 4, two minutes past four. But you can get the podcast of that as well because you've got the podcast of this and you really know what you're talking about and what I'm talking about,

which is often, frankly, more than I know. So, Woman's Hour is back on Monday morning, live just after 10, back on track now, when we'll be talking about the long summer school holidays. They're about to finish in Scotland. They're still rumbling on in the rest of the country. Is it time we reassess the whole thing? Children don't help to bring in the harvest anymore. Is there really any need for this colossal amount of time off school? Is it time we reassess the whole thing? Children don't help to bring in the harvest anymore.

Is there really any need for this colossal amount of time off school? That's on Monday. Hello, I'm John Ronson, the author of So You've Been Publicly Shamed. This is my journey into the lives of the shamed, people ruined by a badly worded tweet or work faux pas. Along the way, I turned from being a keen shamer myself into somebody unsettled by this new zeal to judge and condemn, often on very weak evidence. That's So You've Been Publicly Shamed, read by me, John Ronson, and abridged specially for BBC Sounds. I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex

stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this?

What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.