Woman's Hour - Katie Price talks about her son, Harvey

Episode Date: January 21, 2021

Katie Price and her family have lived their lives in the public eye for more than 15 years - and now in a new BBC One documentary, she's having to make tough decisions about her son Harvey's future. Born with Septo-optic Dysplasia, a rare disorder that affects brain function, hormones and vision, Harvey is moving onto the next stage of his development as he turns 18. Katie joins Emma to discuss. Senior judges in the Family Courts were heavily criticised last year for outdated views on allegations of marital rape in family court proceedings. This week the Court of Appeal is holding a legal review into the Family Courts’ approach to domestic abuse and sexual violence for the first time is 20 years. Barrister, Dr Charlotte Proudman explains why this review is both important and necessary, and why it may prompt cases being overturned.It's been reported that the former First Lady Melania Trump did not write her own thank you letters to her White House staff. The goodbye letters were allegedly written by an aide. Around 80 White House staffers received a typed note from the outgoing First Lady, and were under the impression she wrote them herself. But two sources familiar with the letters claimed Mrs Trump outsourced the work to a lower-level East Wing staffer. Comedian and writer, Katy Brand reveals where she stands on thank you letters.Christina McAnea is the new leader of the UK's largest trade union UNISON, also the fastest growing in Europe. Representing 1.4 million public sector workers - around 80% of which are women - we ask what's top of her in-tray when she starts in the job tomorrow?Presenter: Emma Barnett Producer: Kirsty Starkey Editor: Karen DalzielInterviewed Guest: Katie Price Interviewed Guest: Charlotte Proudman Interviewed Guest: Katy Brand Interviewed Guest: Christine McAnea

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, it's Emma Barnett here. Welcome to the Woman's Hour podcast. Good morning. Today we're going to be talking firsts. Of course, yesterday the world watched America swear in its first female vice president, Kamala Harris. She's also America's first black and South Asian vice president, something we shall reflect on shortly. But on today's programme, we also have Christina McAnee, the new leader of Britain's biggest union, Unison, and the first woman to get the top job in its history.

So let me ask you this. When have you been the first woman in your life, family, or perhaps workplace, to do something? And what was it? Messages already in, people straight off onto this. Tracy says, first to go to university, first to choose not to have children, first to live with my partner and not marry. And yes, we're still together. Thanks for telling us that one. Shirley says, I'm the first female on the British board of the international company I worked for over 15 years ago. Keep those coming in. You can text us on 84844,

text to charge at your standard message rate, or social media, we're at BBC Woman's Hour, or you can email us through our website. Also one that's got you going already is we're going to be talking about thank you notes a bit later in the programme, as it has emerged that perhaps the former First Lady Melania Trump did not write her own thank you notes, regardless of who wrote them, as she was exiting the White House yesterday. Do you still do them? Do you insist upon them? I personally love them. Can't get enough of them. I love sending them. I love receiving them. But as somebody's just written in to say, yes, I do like doing them. But my other half, who in this instance, a man, he never seems to do them. So are they uniquely women's work?

Who knows? Let's discuss. 84844. And we're also going to be joined by Katie Price to talk about the latest chapter in her eldest child's life, her son Harvey, who has certain disabilities as she tries to figure out where and how he should live now he's turned 18. And they've made a film together, which we'll be talking about shortly.

But first, shall we hear from the woman herself, Vice President Kamala Harris, who was sworn in yesterday alongside the very first second gentleman, her husband, Doug Emhoff. Here's some of the speech she gave at the Celebrating America concert last night, which capped yesterday's Inauguration Day. SUSAN COLLINS- American aspiration is what drove the women of this nation throughout history to demand equal rights and the authors of the Bill of Rights to claim freedoms that had rarely been written down before. A great experiment takes great determination, the will to do the work, and then the wisdom to keep refining, keep tinkering, keep perfecting. Kamala Harris, Vice President, making history in her own words. Now let's talk to Katie Price, who has lived her life in the spotlight, first rising to public attention as a glamour model, then a reality TV star, a hugely successful author and also a horse rider.

Her choice of career means her family have also shared the glaring spotlight. That means most of us will be aware that Katie's eldest child, Harvey, was born with septic optic dysplasia, a rare disorder which affects brain function, hormones and vision, and also has several other special needs harvey has recently turned 18 an important milestone in any parent's relationship with their child but especially for a mother making decisions about a young adult with specific and constant needs in a new bbc one documentary out next week katie and harvey explore the options ultimately landing on him going to live at a residential college. Katie Price joins me now. Good morning, Katie. Katie Price, good morning.

Good morning. Thank you for joining us. You've got a busy household there, like a lot of people, all your kids at home at the moment. I'm calling in the other room. Harvey's in this room because obviously we're doing stuff today. So I keep saying to him, Harvey, be quiet, because he's watching his iPad talking about trains. So you're going to be quiet, aren't you, Harvey? We're talking about you and the documentary, aren't we? Oh, yeah.

Right, so be good and be quiet. Good morning, Harvey. And a warm hello to you too, Katie. Could you give us an outline of Harvey's day-to-day needs? Well, basically, yeah, I've never really gone into detail about it, but anyone out there who's got anyone who looks after or cares for anyone with disabilities, you know it's not an easy job even to get out the house.

So basically, he wakes everyone up at night because that's part of his condition so it's always disturbed sleep and because of his pride of willies you know that in the morning it looks like he's at a party for one because he goes raids the cupboards to find whatever food he can find um if he gets agitated he might bang a hole in the wall or and then he'll wet the bed i mean these are all constant stuff that i haven't really spoke about but obviously in the documentary i wanted to do like a real factual what it's like behind the scenes and it's not for sympathy or nothing like that and i do still protect harvey's privacy in the way that when he kicks off i don't film him having a full meltdown because I don't feel I have to do that.

I think you see enough in the programme how challenging it is on a day-to-day life. You know, he has his meds six times a day. They keep him alive and it also controls his behaviour. He's very challenging, but it's also very rewarding. And I would not change him for anything. Can I just say... It's going to happen. Each day is different.

I was just going to say, I watched this last night. It's out next week. And I just wanted to say that I think he's divine. I mean, I think he's charming. I think he's emotionally intelligent. I love the way he wants to give people a kiss. I love the way he says how much he loves you all the time. I just wanted to say that because I think he's the star of the show, actually.

Well, this is the thing. This show is not about me. So people can think, oh, we've seen enough of her. No, this is me stripped back. This show is not about me. Nothing about my career. This is me as a mum with my son and and Harvey is the star of the show and I it's I wanted it to be more educational more than like

a reality show because to me it's important because people really do live the life like I do with Harvey I think one of the things you said in the program and I think it'd be good to get more detail on is and you mentioned one of his other conditions there because he's got several, is that he has surprised you over the years, hasn't he, with what he's been able to do. Could you give us an example? Well, yes. So, for example, the doctor said he'd never walk or talk because obviously I had a natural birth with him. It was a normal, healthy born baby. And just to make it short in case people don't know everything, I found out when he was about six weeks old that he was blind. And then as he got older, then I found out it was SOD, which is septic-optic dysplasia. It's to do with the pituitary gland, which is at the front line of the brain,

and that's what controls everything in your body. It's cortisol deficient. If people don't know what that means it's like adrenaline say like if you're running for a bus and you know you're trying to run and you get there and you're like out of breath and you've got the cortisol in your body to you know bring you back to normal where he hasn't got that adrenaline so if he bangs his head or has an accident he's at high risk so um he has to go to hospital he's also got tick disorder um prada willies opposite deficit disorder that's behavior adhd behavior and he's also got autism um and and

you you know not being able to walk but i was just gonna say not being able to walk or talk those things haven't come to pass he has been able to do those things and and continue to surprise you and the doctors exactly so i always say to mums out there i know it's always stressful when your child gets diagnosed with something but always try and be optimistic because things can change they have with harvey you know he was but when i say blind he was blind could not see anything to do with his optic nerve which still hasn't changed when you go to like the hospital when we do when we go to more fields but i think when you stimulate them it's all about stimulation um just things that you do to help and now he can see colors things like that and I just think for some

parents out there they might not like it that I'm going to say it sometimes people think if they've got a disability and it's easy just to put them somewhere just put them in a corner because they think they're not going to be able to do anything whereas in my case because my family and me we're quite you know we're not like that we do everything we can to help stimulate Harvey make sure you know take him to places sound places well and he's got he's got four four siblings we should say so there's a there's a lot of stimulation I'm sure for him to have can I ask just specifically about the time we're living in now not related to the film has harvey's care been affected by the pandemic by lockdown absolutely so like this the argument at the moment is he should be at school because he's

residential monday to friday he's been doing that for a year and a half um just for his sake because otherwise if he's at home he kicks off in the morning and he knows if he kicks off he won't go in the car to go to school so he is at residential now they're saying because of covid this and that we all know it's high risk and he is on the high risk but they should have things in place for him to go there that's what what's paid for so if the carers aren't there for him then they have to try and come here to home school but we're basically saying if he's ill at home, you don't send him away. So why should it be any different there? So he hasn't been able, has he not been able to get his usual care during lockdown? No, I mean, I've got him now.

I'm working now and I'm here with him now looking after him. And I'm homeschooling the other two kids, which is fine. But it's stressful because I'm trying to work and he's not getting the right education that he should be getting because some you know parents of those children with disabilities have felt like they have been forgotten during the pandemic and overlooked do you feel that i know yeah it is a bit like that at the moment although the school are in contact and they give them worksheets to try and do schooling, the caring is, you still need a bit of care. You know, I need to, yeah, it is a bit like that.

Although, you know, I've got a full system around, you know, you get the social workers, occupational therapists, but they all seem to be off or they don't want to go near him. You know, it's really hard work. It sounds challenging on top of everything and for Harvey. But just to reflect on something else you do say in the film, for the last year and a half, he has been doing residential. This was also looking at what he's going to do beyond being 18.

And is he all right? Yeah, he's just talking about trains loud and I can hear it. OK, well, you know, it's a good subject for him. He loves it, doesn't he? But in terms of, you say in the film, he moved to the residential option because you'd reached a crisis point. What was that crisis point? Yeah, so the crisis point last year and a half was the point

that my windows were getting smashed every morning and it's danger for him because he wanted to be with me okay so your zoom lines just sorry say that again he wants your windows were getting smashed and he wanted to be with you start that again be with me all the time and he knew because he was big and strong that he'd smash a window and then the driver wouldn't have him in the car because he'd go and smash the window screen of the car or they start attacking the driver hold a minute half and he'd do that because he knew if he did that he knew he'd be at home with me because they wouldn't take him to school and it was getting to the point and then he'd be waking

the kids up all the time and then he'd go for the kids. And it was just like a danger to him, not fair on the kids because you don't want them worried or anything like that. So then it was crisis. So I called socials like the social people around me and said, look, this is really bad. I called Morsley Hospital who do the behavior. So look, this is crisis. Now it's really affecting everyone. It's affecting Harvey going to school. I need help. What can we do? Everyone did say to me, like teachers, my mum and doctors said it would be good for him to go residential because he's there. But it was me that didn't want him to go because I didn't want Harvey to think that I'm getting taken off.

He's enjoying it enormously, which you can see. You know, it looks brilliant. And I know that that's what you're trying to achieve with the next stage of his life. I was surprised to read that you had received some hate for the decision around the next stage of his life to go for more residential to try and help with his independence. Can you tell us what some people had said to you?

I can talk about the trolling all day long. No, but just give us a flavour, because I can't imagine it. Well, this is the thing. A newspaper said he's going into full-time care because I can't cope. That is not true. Basically, he's in residential now, Monday to Friday. So the next place I look for, I'm looking for a 52 week placement for him. Now, the reason why I'm doing that, and any parent would agree with me, he's older and he's turning into an adult.

So having 52 care means he has the option, the option, not he has to, be there at weekends if he wants and some of the holidays. Because he's an adult and he's now going to make friends, they might to the cinema on a saturday or go bowling or have a disco night he might want to go and do that instead of coming to me whereas if he wanted to do that on saturday then i'll go and visit him on a sunday it's just so he has the option to make a choice yeah and i think important to explain i just didn't i didn't understand why or what people had against that or what they'd said to you. Yeah, no, a lot of people, because some people are ignorant about it.

They think residential, you're palming him off and you're not seeing him. So that's why this programme would be educational to make them realise why it is better for him to be in residential. Because finding a place where they've got swimming, the gym, the school site, everything that's for him, independent living, helping him know what it's like to have his kitchen, the toilet,

you know, it's helping him. He's not needy. It's giving him the chance to be independent, and that's what an adult is. It'd be selfish of me to have him at home with me all the time. You've got to let him explore and give him that chance. We've got many messages, Katie, that are of a very different flavour. For instance, Suzanne's got in touch to say,

Katie, you're an inspiration. Love to you, to Harvey and to all of your family. I just wondered a word on you, though, and how you have been coping with all of this and, of course, you know, with your other children as well. And also, you know, it's been reported in the papers about some of the financial difficulties you've faced with not least a bankruptcy hearing recently. And at one point, you know, your work level was so prodigious, it was reported you were worth more than £40 million. I mean, what's gone on there and how are you coping?

Well, like you say, tabloids fabricate everything. I think the word these days, bankruptcy, it has that stigma to it. But it's not as bad as what people think. You know, one of my companies, Jordan Trading, went into bankruptcy. It doesn't mean to say everything else. And it was all to do with a court case that I had but um everything is is all good in fact my life couldn't be any better now than what it is um in everywhere I just think some people believe the media and now you know like my house they like to just they in the papers it says mucky mansion that's because um a guy fly tipped on it, turned it around,

it's a police investigation. I think if people actually listen to Speaks with the truth of things, then people will be like, oh, my God. But you know what papers are like. Well, that's what we wanted to make sure we gave you the opportunity to do. Katie Price, in your own words, thank you very much for talking to us today. All the best. I'll say one thing.

Very quickly. To all the carers out there, because I'm a carer myself, respect to all you carers, doctors and nurses. Keep it up. I respect what you do and you're doing a good job. Katie Price and to Harvey, thank you very much for your time.

Love. See you. Thank you. Bye-bye. Thank you very much for your time. See you. Thank you. Bye-bye. Thank you very much. Bye, Harvey. Now, in terms of what's going on this week elsewhere in our systems, Katie, they're talking about carers.

Let's look now towards the family courts, because senior judges in the family courts were heavily criticised last year for outdated views on allegations of marital rape in family court proceedings. This week, the Court of Appeal is holding a legal review into the family court's approach to domestic abuse and sexual violence for the first time in 20 years. The barrister, Dr Charlotte Proudman, joined me just before the programme began to explain why this review is so important.

But first, we're going to hear from a woman we're calling Anna, whose words have been voiced by a BBC radio actor. Anna had taken her case to the family courts after she was worried that her abusive ex-partner could be a risk to her children. I've been hugely affected by the stress and trauma I experienced going through the family court. I was shocked and deeply affected by the prejudiced attitude of the judge and total lack of understanding of the effects of the behaviour of my violent and aggressive ex-partner on myself and my children. The court case went on for over three years and there was a court hearing at least once every three months so I would say at least eight times I was in front of that same judge,

but probably 12 times in total. We tried to appeal the final order, but were unsuccessful. That same judge said, because I was well-educated, I could not have been scared of my ex-partner. My intelligence was frequently pointed out by the judge that I'd connived the whole experience to prevent my ex-partner from seeing the kids, which at no point did I ever prevent him. The judge had to admit at the end that I had facilitated all contact

and I actually paid thousands of pounds to enable it. They allowed my ex-partner to cross-examine me about my allegation of him raping me. His questions were all about times and details so that it looked like I couldn't remember exactly what happened before or after, which I now know is common with trauma. It was horrific and such an inappropriate and re-traumatising experience for him to be given authority to question me like he was a lawyer. I blacked out at one point in court and still the judge did nothing. When my ex-partner sent threatening emails about me before the final trial, the judge did not even then understand that I was in danger. It came undone as my ex-partner showed his aggression in the court and the same judge granted me a non-molestation order at the end of the court case as my ex-partner was still threatening me.

I asked Dr Charlotte Proudman if Anna's experience was one she recognised. Sadly, it's very common. I see it in a lot of cases. What she describes about being re-traumatised through going through the family law system is something that is common with complainants of domestic abuse, particularly in situations like Anna's where her ex-partner, who's

unrepresented, is allowed to cross-examine her in court. There's no screen, there's no video link, there's no barrier between the two of them. And that whole process of being asked why you did something, why you didn't do something, is an incredibly gruelling process for a woman. You've spent the last two days in the Court of Appeal. You'll be there again later today. What is happening there and why? How does this relate? So there's a Court of Appeal case, as you say, at the moment. There are four grouped appeals. They're all brought by mothers who have raised allegations of rape, domestic abuse and coercive control. And what they say is that because of the abuse they experience by their ex-partners, they feel that their children are at risk of harm if they have contact. And so as a result of that, they've been through, some of them have been through fact find hearings, which means their allegations are tested by the family court.

And in those situations, the family court found that their allegations are not proved. And so as a result of the whole process, which you heard, some of which is like what Anna has described, they've appealed those decisions and said that a lot of the principles in the family courts and the way they hear these cases like rape myths and stereotypes being re-traumatized are outdated they're things of the past consigned to the judicial dustbin as one lawyer referred to it and so this court appeal case is going to re-look at how the family court hears cases of rape domestic abuse and coercive control so that hopefully we can have something better in the future.

Do you think the family courts are fit for purpose at the moment? No, I don't. I don't. And in fact, the Ministry of Justice did a report about the family courts in June last year. And I think it's fair to say that they didn't even think at times the family courts were fit for purpose because there were so many issues, particularly in terms of the family courts being pro-contact, which means that there's perception that the family courts will support contact with often abusive or alleged abusive ex-partners at all costs, meaning that they're not properly investigating these allegations of domestic abuse and children as a result may have suffered significant harm. And this is as a result of the family courts ordering contact. And because the family courts are in private, which means that members of the public can't attend, it's very rare for the media to attend, there's no transparency. So no one really knows what's

going on. We got a rare glimpse, didn't we, last year. Two of the cases actually within the appeal relate to discussions by Judge Robin Tolson. He was criticised last year, he's a judge in the family court, by a more senior judge based in the family division of the High Court over his handling of rape allegations. Ms Justice Russell upheld a woman's appeal after she complained that Tolson had deduced she could not have been raped because she took no physical steps to stop her assailant. Is this outdated views of individual judges that's perhaps making this not quite work how it should, if I could put it like that? Or do you think it is the rules that bound family court? Well, look, I don't think it's outdated views of one particular judge. I think

it's systematic. And these outdated attitudes really permeate, I think, the kind of decisions that family judges are making. For instance, in the case that you mentioned where the judge said, well, if you didn't fight the assailant off, then the question is, have you actually been raped? Saying no is not enough. Now, these are really outdated and frankly, sexist concepts about what consent really means. And one of the issues in the Court of Appeal case is, how do we define rape? And you wouldn't believe that in 20 years there hasn't been a landmark court of appeal case which actually looks at the concept of rape in family law. And so you have courts up and down the country potentially applying different definitions of consent and rape, which is frankly astonishing. This today is both an appeal and a review.

That's right. Yes. So there's an appeal for women's cases, so they're hoping for new decisions. And then there is also a review of how the family courts treat these allegations in the future, particularly what the definition of rape is. And what are you hoping will happen, and how quickly could it happen? Well, I'm hoping that certainly that the women's appeals are successful. And I'm hoping that there's going to be some progressive guidance

that tells family judges how they should approach these cases without re-traumatising victims so that they can get the best possible evidence. With also making sure that children's voices are heard in these cases because often children are not even spoken to before fact find hearings for example before you actually hear whether these allegations are true or not and a deeper and proper understanding of what consent means so that these kind of rape myths are not used in some of these cases we've heard that because a woman has consented to sex once with an ex-partner, that must mean that she has consented throughout the relationship.

I mean, these really are poor concepts to be deploying in really serious sexual violence cases. Just a word on those who are also involved in this. There are lots of organisations, aren't there, who have come to this. Tell us about that. Yes, that's right. So there are a group of women's rights organisations, including Rights of organisations, aren't there, who have come to this? Tell us about that. Yes, that's right. So there are a group of women's rights organisations, including Rights of Women, Women's Aid, Rape Crisis and so forth, that have intervened in the cases, which means that they're interested parties. And we're going to hear from them today. And in fact, for members of the public, they can attend the hearing by emailing the Court of Appeal, because the hearing has been live stream streamed and they're going to be setting out what their views are on the way in which family courts should approach these types of cases. And I should also say that Families Need Fathers is another interested party that's intervened, which will be putting their views forward about how family courts should hear these cases. Just finally, and to be very specific, in that testimony our listeners will have heard from Anna,

and you've mentioned it again, at the moment you can be cross-examined by your former partner. Is that something you hope will be done away with in this review of the family courts? So yes, that's right. There is no bar on a perpetrator cross-examining a victim and the domestic abuse bill proposes to change that but of course the domestic abuse bill hasn't yet become law and so until that happens potentially this situation is allowed to

continue potentially this rape review meaning these court of appeal cases could change that, but we'll just have to wait and see. I think that we need some really big changes to the family courts. Otherwise, we're going to see more children suffering harm

through state sanctioned decisions. Dr Charlotte Proudman there, the outcome of the appeal and review should be known sometime next month. Many of you getting in touch around firsts, being the first woman in your family, workplace, friendship group to do something. Reflecting on both Kamala Harris, first female vice president to be sworn in yesterday. And also we've got a first on our programme today. We'll be shortly speaking to the first woman to lead Britain's biggest union.

That's Unison, Christina McAnee. She's coming up shortly. One here, Emma was the first girl to take woodwork at CSE in 1978 with the help of our music teacher, Miss Henderson. Says Shirley from Plymouth. Hello, Shirley. I was the first mayor to have a baby while in office almost exactly 15 years ago, says Alison. Keep them coming, please. Thank you so much for those. 84844

is the number you need to text in or on social media. We're at BBC Woman's Hour. And I have to say, you've also been getting in touch in your droves, not writing in, ba-dum-bum, about thank you notes, because it's been reported that the former First Lady, Melania Trump, didn't write her own thank you letters to her White House staff. The goodbye letters were allegedly written by an aide. Around 80 White House staffers received a tight note from the outgoing first lady and were under the impression she wrote them herself. But two sources familiar with the letters say Mrs Trump outsourced the work to a lower level East Wing staffer. But putting aside whether she wrote them or not, how important are thank you notes?

Comedian and writer Katie Brand joins joins us now katie do you do them yes well i don't know if i would do them to the standard that you or perhaps other women's listeners would expect i certainly do texts and emails but then i do everything via texts and emails and and i i have to be completely honest with you and say that I think I would struggle to remember anybody's address of anybody who's important to me so I I often have to look up addresses on my online shopping system that are pre-saved in order to transfer those addresses handwritten onto things like birthday cards or Christmas cards so I am slovenly. I certainly am about this sort of thing. My own children, I have made them do thank you letters, but we also like to do with little ones thank you videos. So I'm embracing technology because I think it's the intention

really, rather than necessarily a handwritten card or letter. Although I feel that there are many thousands of people out there screaming at me right now. But I do think it's important to say thank you. That's the main thing. And these just little, perhaps old school courtesies are really important to keep going. And this is something I have been thinking about over the past year, because last year I wrote a book called Practically Perfect, which is life lessons from Mary Poppins. And I feel like this is quite a Poppins-esque topic. I can imagine her saying, you know, come along, Jane and Michael, let's write our thank you letters, spit spot.

And I have had, because Poppins has been part of my life for the last 12 months with the book writing, I think I've come to appreciate these little things that we do, these old school courtesies that are really important to keep going, even as technology changes, even as it's not necessarily handwritten notes. Do you think it is uniquely female labour? There's a message here from Rosie who says, for what it's worth, I hate them, especially for children, and I hate them, especially for

children's gifts. It's just another way of adding to mum workload, men never bother. I should say, Shirley's got in touch to say her husband always does them. So let's not necessarily make that generalisation. But go on, Katie, do you want to make it? I would not like to make it, no. I'm not keen on generalisations generally speaking. I know, me neither. But what do you say to that? No, but I think Rosie, and I saw that message too,

and I think Rosie has a good point. And I think often there have been lots of articles written recently about the emotional load, the soft load that women take over Christmas around birthdays, organising the little things. And I would imagine that it is possibly the case that if two parents have a sort of mother and father figure, then perhaps the mother takes the lead more often. But I don't think that has to be the case. And I don't think it has to be a chore either. I have actually found my son, who's six, really likes making little videos for his grandparents, you know, saying thank you, grandma. And holding up the present and all of that sort of stuff. So I would be and that can be quite fun. That's actually quite a fun activity. I have been known, Katie, before leaving someone's house when I've done this and I don't do it all the time.

I'm not putting myself out there as a saint because I know I'll need their address later. I'm like, can I just grab it now, please? So I'm getting ahead of myself for the note because as you say, having people's address is such, it's not a thing anymore. I've taken photos of somebody's post on my phone in order to have their address at a later date. I've got all these weird random addresses.

I'll tell you the most random address I've got preloaded into one of those online car delivery services. And that's Christine Blasey Ford. Do you remember who brought about the case for Brett Kavanaugh, who accused him of assaulting her and therefore felt that he shouldn't go to the Supreme Court in America. And there was a movement. And I think that's the last thank you letter I sent. There was a movement around the world to send her thank you letters because lots of people had felt, you know, that she had been badly treated and had really been brave in standing up. So it's quite odd for me because every time I go on to this online card

delivery service to send a card to a grandparent or a parent or so on, Christine Blasey Ford's address pops up at me. I mean, I didn't know where that was going to go. And somehow you've linked it back to, of course, what we've been thinking about, which is power in America and American politics. Katie Brand, thank you very much for doing that and talking to us today. And I'm going to tell you a lot more messages coming in on Thank You Notes. Let's go to Christinaina mcaneen

now the new leader of britain's biggest union unison and the first woman we've been talking about first throughout the program to get the job in its history unison represents 1.4 million public sector workers in the nhs social care education refuse work local government and around 80 are women they these of course, have been playing a vital role on the front lines of the pandemic, risking their lives to provide services relied upon by millions of people while COVID has been raging over the last year. Christina starts in her new role tomorrow, but joins us now. Christina, you're the first leader of one of the big industrial unions. It is the biggest and female leader. Why has it taken

so long, do you think, for a woman to get to the top of this tree? Well, I think if you look at the trade union movement in general, of course, there's lots of brilliant women at the top of their organisations. I'm the first in unison and the first of any of the big ones, as you say. And I suppose it's because there's not a lot of churn usually in unions so my own boss Dave Prentice had been in post for 20 years so you know you don't have that regular turnover that you might get in other other types of jobs so that's probably part of it and there's no doubt that another part of it is the fact that you know there's still an element of you know what's what's everyone's vision of a trade union leader?

And it tends to be the kind of man, you know, kind of brusque and kind of a bit shouty, maybe. Not necessarily. And I say that because Dave Prentice certainly isn't that type of leader. But, you know, that's probably what in people's mind, that's what they think of when they think of a trade union. I don't know you, we've just met. Are you brisk and shouty?

No, I'm not shouty, I don't think. I can get angry, obviously, or not so much angry, but I can be challenging, shall we say, depending on what circumstances are. Well, you'd have to be in your role. I mean, I wonder if another thing that has put women off, but as you say, it may also be just a matter of time and there's not that much churn in these roles,

is a recent inquiry at a fellow union, not your union, the GMB. There was an independent investigation there by QC who found bullying, misogyny, cronyism and sexual harassment to be endemic. Is that something you've seen in your union work? Well, I know it exists and there's probably nowhere that's exempt from it. And I think a lot of that depends on what you get from the top. That would be my experience of it. And I wouldn't say it's endemic in unison.

I don't think we're like that i mean we had dave prentice as a general secretary but of the five assistant general secretaries uh four were women one was a man and we've tried very hard over the years to get as many to make it easier for women to make their way up the ladder as it were and i and i've been for the past uh several years being the lead negotiator for the union and that's traditionally been seen as very much a man's job you know it's that's what men do whereas my career has been in the negotiating field where if you're going to come up against sexism and attitudes about is this the right job for a woman it's probably in that because when I was a more junior officer I was often the only woman in the room when I was doing pay negotiations.

Now that's changed over the years. And so that does change, I suppose, the ability to have that kind of sexism and blatant bullying that you might see in some other areas. I was very intrigued by something you said in an interview with The Times this weekend. You say you always feel like you've got an advantage, as you say, as the lead negotiator, because unison is seen as a union you can positively engage with. If we talk tough,

it's because we mean it, not to just get our name in the papers. And that's always been an advantage, whether for a woman or a man. Which union were you talking about? Well, other unions that perhaps have leaders that are a bit more blustery, shall we say. Like whom? Now, Emma, you can't actually expect me to name names. Well, I've got to ask. I think people will know there are certain stereotypical trade union leaders, if you like, who are seen as kind of of um you know people that the media like to have on because they're a bit controversial uh and make statements but also necessarily they follow through on right so so trying it on yeah i mean i think we're the kind of union where i've always

taken the position is you know you don't don't threaten strike and then don't follow through with it you know if we talk about taking strike action, we know it's difficult. We represent lots of low paid workers. We don't take them out and strike willingly because they lose pay. So it's frustrating when other unions make a threat they don't follow through on because it gives unions a bad name. Well, it gives them a bad name. And also it means sometimes in our own union, we'll get told, well, such and such a union says they're going to take strike action why aren't we and it's a bit like yeah but you know they won't

it's just an empty threat that they'll sometimes make Wouldn't it be useful for our listeners to know who you're talking about? I don't really want to know I mean there are other unions that use that tactic more often than I do than we would use in unison and I'm sure other unions

I'm sure people in those unions will know which ones they are. And it varies. I mean, I don't want to name names because it does vary depending on what the circumstances are. It's, I suppose, just trying to get inside the mind of the tactics and what's going on behind the scenes on behalf of millions of workers. Let me ask you about those workers because you are in a position to try to improve

their lives. That's how you would put it to them. That's what they pay their subs for. How far would you go if your frontline workers don't get the vaccine soon? We've seen a police officer who was having to go around an anti-lockdown march now in hospital. I know the vaccine is coming, of course, but what about, for instance, people you represent like support staff in school? Yeah, we're pushing very hard to say that this, of course, staff who would be called frontline workers, the people who are right up against the patients who actually have COVID are the ones that should be getting it first and care workers who are looking after very highly vulnerable people. But yeah, we're pushing very hard to say that all public sector workers should be getting it. But we are trying to follow the clinical evidence on this.

So who are the ones that are most at risk? Who are the ones that are most likely to pass it on to the people that they're coming into contact with and follow that through? You know, in an ideal world, everybody would get it at the same time, but that's just unrealistic. So we are trying to work with employers and with the government to make this as smooth as possible. And we'll be encouraging our members to take up the offer of the vaccine. in zero hours contracts that led to, for some of them, very bad PPE, little job security, low pay.

Do you regret that your union hasn't fought a more successful fight at this point so they didn't start on that back foot? Well, we've been trying for years, Emma, to get rid of some of these worst practices and it's particularly bad in areas like the care sector. You know, we've been the union that's been at the forefront of actually trying to fight hard to get protections for them, whether that's about fighting with the employers and government. But we are also the union that's taken some massive cases through the courts to establish rights for these very workers. You know, it's cost us lots of money. It's taken a number of years. But we are actually committed to pushing for this the whole way through and I've been leading on behalf of my union and I'm the co-founder of a thing called the Future Social Care Coalition which is a cross-party group trying very hard to say start with the workforce if you want to resolve

some of the main issues in social care and that's you know one of the reasons why social care was so badly affected was precisely because of the poor working practices that we'd seen. Just very briefly, do you think the government will remember these workers when Covid is all over? Well, we'll be doing everything and I'll be doing everything I can to make sure that's what happens. And my worry is that, you know, we'll see an element of let's revert to type. So we've already seen it this week with some of the announcements or kind of confusing announcements about workers' rights post-Brexit. Well, we will catch back up with you if we can as you get further into the job.

You start tomorrow. Christina McAnee, thank you very much for your time. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Thank you so much for your time. Join us again for the next one. Hello. I hope you've enjoyed the podcast you just heard. There's another podcast available as well. It's called The Infinite Monkey Cage with me, Robin Ince, and... Me, Brian Cox. And it's going to be, I think, more educational than whatever it is that you just listened to because we're going to consider subjects such as the nature of reality,

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on BBC Sounds. Yeah, there's hundreds of them, actually. Hundreds. Loads of them. Who would have thought you could do over 100 episodes about everything that's in the universe? There's a lot more than I first imagined. That's why you're a comedian, not a scientist. I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered.

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From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.