Woman's Hour - Kaye Adams, Chemical attack, Gender gap, Saint Brigid

Episode Date: February 1, 2024

Nine people have been injured after a man threw a 'corrosive substance' over a mother and her two girls in Clapham, south London, yesterday evening. The family, three responding police offices and three other people who tried to help were taken to hospital after the attack. Witnesses described a "horrific" scene. Police are searching for the subject. Emma Barnett spoke to a solicitor Ayesha Nayyar, who has previously represented victims of acid crime. Emma talks to the TV presenter Kaye Adams about her 10-year battle with HMRC over their claim she owed almost £125,000 in unpaid taxes. Best known for her role on the Loose Women panel show, she also hosts the morning show on BBC Radio Scotland. She says the protracted legal case has left her feeling “utterly, utterly beat up and gaslit”, despite her vindication.A new study says that an ideological gap has opened up between young men and women in countries on every continent. These increasingly different world views could have far-reaching consequences. One of the leading researchers in gender studies Dr Alice Evans, Senior Lecturer in the Social Science of Development at King’s College London tells Emma why Gen Z is two generations, not one. Emma also speaks to Professor Rosie Campbell, Director of the Global Institute for Women's Leadership at King's College London.Have you ever thought about where your name came from? Perhaps you were named after a favourite relative, a character in a movie or maybe your parents just liked the sound of it. Photographer Deirdre Brennan wanted to mark the 1500th anniversary of Saint Brigid, one of the patron saints of Ireland. To do this, she photographed Brigids all over Ireland and asked them how they felt about their name. She joins Emma to discuss the project - as does one of the Brigids involved in her project - Brigid McDonnell, a sheep farmer from County Antrim, Northern Ireland.Presenter: Emma Barnett Producer: Rebecca Myatt Studio manager: Steve Greenwood

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Emma Barnett and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Good morning, welcome to the programme. It's done, left behind, January is over. And as a colleague pointed out, there were five Mondays in that particular January we just came through. So happy February the 1st. I personally love the start of

February, but I'm biased. It's my birthday on the 5th. So you'll forgive me if we don't speak on Monday as I take the day off to spend the day with my best friend and zero responsibilities, I hope. I can also apparently wish you happy St. Bridget's Day today. Something we'll come to a little later in the programme as we learn more from the photographer capturing the portraits of Irish women called Bridget and finding out what they think of their name. Also on today's programme, what is it like to go up against a system year after year? Loose Women's Kay Adams will be here to talk about taking on HMRC over her tax affairs. She compares the authority to a bully. But what I wanted to ask you about today was this research showing that

the views of younger men and women diverging. Young women are apparently becoming more liberal than young men. This is under the age of 30. Why are some younger men being more drawn to, becoming more drawn to conservatism? Why are the women going in the other direction? Usually you see the same age having similar experiences, therefore similar views, but there does seem to be this drawing apart. At the same time, there's another study that's just come out looking at boys and men from Generation Z, which Zed, however you want to say that, ages 12 to 29, which shows that they're more likely than older baby boomers to believe that feminism has done more harm than good,

and that one in four UK males aged 16 to 29 believe it's harder to be a man than a woman. With a fifth looking favourably on the social media influencer Andrew Tate, who, just to remind you, is facing charges of human trafficking, rape and sexually exploiting women, all of which he denies. But what he has said, and this is a man that I've just said a fifth of young men looking favourably upon, is that he is a misogynist and he's talked about hitting and choking women. We're going to explore why this difference seems to have opened up and what it means. But I wanted to give you your chance to have your say on this.

What is your response when you hear about how young men are pulling in one direction and young women perhaps pulling in the other and the fact that one in four think it's harder to be a man than a woman age 16 to 29 that's those views there and that feminism has done more harm than good. More likely to believe that younger men than older men in this country. So there's a global picture, there's a UK picture, and there's some attitudinal differences in there. What have you seen around you from the young men and young women in your life?

If you fall into that age bracket, are you seeing things that fall in with this or perhaps they don't? Let me know on 84844, the differences between men and women's perception of the world around them and of each other on social media at bbc women's hour or you can email me through the women's hour website you know i always want to hear from you or whatsapp message on 03700 100 444 just watch those data charges but first a story that's

developing more information coming in. Nine people have been injured after a man threw a corrosive substance over a mother and her two girls in Clapham, South London, yesterday evening. The family, three responding police officers and three other people who've tried to help, were taken to hospital after the attack. Two daughters, I should say, we now know their ages, ages eight and three, all remain in hospital. While none of their conditions are life-threatening, the injuries to the woman and younger girl could be life-changing, police say. Witnesses have described a horrific scene and police are searching for the subjects. And I'm joined now by a solicitor, Ayesha Nair, who's previously represented victims

of acid crime. Aisha good morning I should say the other detail that has just come in and we've until very very in the last few minutes we've been referring to this as a corrosive substance it's just been confirmed that the attack what was used was an alkaline. What is your response to this and how does this fit into a broader picture of substances being used as weapons? Well what's interesting and sad about this case is an alkaline is a type of chemical and so when we look at these cases we talk about acid attacks. What's worrying is that there's the use now of any type of substance that can injure and maim. So the net's been cast wider than it was historically.

So for me, now the use of alkaline is a worrying trend. And what do we know about how it's being used and the trend of this? Because it's a man who's done this, as far as we know, who's thrown this over a woman and two children. What are we seeing about who uses such substances? Well, historically, in this country at least, this was very much a male-on-male type of event. It was men throwing acid on other men, often related to gang culture. What's worrying is the Acid Survivors Trust last year said there's been a 69%

increase in acid attacks taking place. They were peaking and then they declined around the COVID period, which is to be expected. But as I say, last year, there was a 69% increase, according to the Acid Survivors Trust, with female victims for the first time exceeding male victims. So there's lots to come out of what's being reported on particularly this attack, but what's gone on in the last year or so. The women for the first time increased numbers over males. And in terms of the impact on women, you know, we don't have all the details in this particular case, but life changing is a phrase that, you know, can mean an awful lot of things. But we wanted to talk about this this morning with yourself. You know, you've got expertise in looking after victims and

representing them what can that mean life-changing? Well life-changing means exactly those two words their life will never be the same again not just for their physical injuries and most people when they think about an acid attack they think about the physical impact of an acid attack so scarring which is always there but what goes along with that the acid attack. So scarring, which is always there. But what goes along with the horrific burning that happens immediately, and then the scarring, but then also the pain that's associated. And I'm only yet talking about the physical injuries, the pain that is associated with being the victim of a horrific acid attack. So often it can be lifelong skin grafts. It can be repeated hospital appointments.

And it can be physical scarring that you're seeing every single day of the rest of your life. But not just your physical scarring. It's the psychological impact that when I speak to clients that I've acted and represented, really, really bring home how it's not just a physical injury. I've had clients of mine talk about wanting to commit suicide when they've been left with the after effects of an acid attack. So it's not just the physical impact, it's the psychological impact of living with the fact that you've been an acid attack victim. And this case this morning, you've got what acid attack victim and this case this morning

you've got what appears to be and I know it's a story unfolding and we've got limited information at this stage but you've got young children here that are living with the effects of an acid attack and a very very young age and that is incredibly sad. I mean as I said that you know we have a woman who's been attacked here we have two daughters you know women being deeply affected here and three women two in their 30s one in her 50s were also injured when they tried to help I mentioned about the officers as well and the man in his 50s who also helped so you've got a whole picture here of the target certainly being women in this case and a manhunt is still

underway to find the man who has done this and the police have added as this story is being updated while we speak that we believe the man and woman are known to each other and that the police say our investigations in its early stages and we are working to establish why this awful incident has happened and what what is the latest on the law on this front? Because there have been some updates. There's obviously been a focus by the government on violence against women. What does the law say about this? Well, the law says carrying acid is a highly dangerous weapon

and it depends what you're doing with it. So if you possess it, you can have a prison sentence. If you throw it, it can actually carry the maximum life sentence. And if you throw your acid and it hits your victim, it depends on the effect and what you will end up having in terms of sentencing. But I think what's really important to remember is acid victims, acid attacks, they are life changing injuries. They should be treated in exactly the same way I would advocate as a victim of a knife crime. There is the possibility of passing a life sentence. It's very, very rare, but it has happened in the past.

And I think what we have to do is really crack down on sentencing in relation to acid attacks. And do you think that would be a deterrent? Because, I mean, we are talking, again, just to say, as we find out a bit more information, we're talking about an alkaline here, it is a chemical, you're talking about acid attacks, but I presume it all comes under the same thing in terms of how it's viewed. Maybe not, though, you tell me, but do you think that would be a deterrent? I think so. I think, look, there's lots of factors that underlay what can be done to stop acid attacks rising. And we know they're rising. And I would advocate, you know, some real serious action very, very quickly. Sixty nine percent increase last year. Something has got to be done.

And I would certainly say sentences have to be harsher. I've always been an advocate for coming down tough on sentencing. So I think we go in at the higher end of these sentences. So you pass out the right message to those who are thinking about carrying acid or any sort of chemical, that we will come down on them hard as a criminal justice system. But then taking away the sentences, I think we've got to go back to grassroots here and we've got to educate the wider community and certainly areas where this is a problem to raise awareness of not just what will happen if you do carry acid in terms of sentencing, but also the effect on victims of acid attacks and what will happen.

And then we've got to go back to just policing acid or chemicals themselves and making them difficult to get hold of and just policing it effectively as well. I think there's various factors that can happen here to try and get these numbers down. Well, yes. Well, as you say, though, with law changes that some may say we haven't actually had the impact, we had recent law changes, but the numbers have gone up and people using corrosive substances as weapons seems to be a trend going in the wrong direction. So going back to grassroots would be, I'm sure, what others would also suggest. Is there just a final thought as we try and get our heads around this attack from you as someone who's represented victims? Well, I wake up in the morning and when I read stories like this, I know what lies ahead for this family.

They are living with the horrific act of an acid attack. And if there's anybody out there who knows any information in relation to this, then we need to step up and do something about stopping these attacks happening. We've got to take action generally as a community. We know there's pockets of areas where these attacks are happening over other areas.

London is certainly one of them. But we need to get back to grassroots and really, really stamp this out. Ayesha Nayar, who's previously represented victims of acid crime, a solicitor there. Thank you for your experience and talking to us about where the law is on this. And this story, as I say, is developing while we're talking. So any other, any developments, we'll bring them to you. But we wanted to talk about this trend and also in particular,

the fact this is an attack by a man on a woman and her two daughters and bring to attention the trend and the rising trends around this. Talking about women and men, though, in terms of attitudes, you've been getting in touch, thank you for that,

with some of your views on why there is this divergence, it seems, with younger men and women, some younger men going towards conservatism, some younger women being in a more socially liberal mindset. And also a new study out today, which we'll talk to

one of the authors of shortly, showing about feminism being bad for men. The idea that one in four of these younger men thinking that women have it easier than men, men have it harder. What do you see in the world around you? It's difficult to talk about some of this, I suppose, because it's generalisations, but we also know that this and these are trends. So it's really interesting to get your take. And there's some very thoughtful messages coming in.

Men seem to have lost their way, reads this one, because women don't need men in the same way as they once did for financial support, to vote, to legitimise their childbearing. Women don't even need them for having babies anymore. No wonder they might feel somehow obsolete. Another, I feel the part of the reason for the divergence of men's and women's views is now that it's so much harder for men to find their place in the world. Young men are constantly hearing how women are important.

There's this girl can movement, etc., which is incredibly important. But there is nothing similar for boys. Employers are trying to be more inclusive, but that often means that men are overlooked in favour of women, as happened to women in the past. As a 50-year-old woman, I feel incredibly sorry for young men at the moment who are struggling to find their place in the world, says Kelly, who's listening from Brighton.

Good morning to you. I'm a 21-year-old male. I see so much content on social media that primes men and boys to think of women as fundamentally different to men with a childish boys are better than girls sentiment it's great to have a 21 year old male listener texting in thank you very much for that and interesting to to see what the lens is through social media that you're being offered very interesting another one here from rose good morning i'm a university student studying politics There's a clear gender imbalance with those who are studying politics. The loudest people in the classes are young men

with extreme right-wing views. I've been told that women don't belong at university. I've had rape and sexual assault jokes made towards me. It's not something I expected before I came to university and not opinions I thought were welcome in society anymore. As a result, the small number of women studying politics grouped together in a small, we grouped together, excuse me, in a small community. And we were all very liberal. These experiences have pushed many conservative leaning young men to join a supportive community of female students that often sees and turn their backs on conservative views that are promoting misogyny. Rose, how fascinating. Good morning to you. I studied politics about 20 years ago. I have to say the loudest people and the majority were still men.

But, you know, it's just anecdotal. But those particular types of jokes were not part of the fray. And I can't quite imagine them being that. And the major difference, of course, between that time, and it's too crude to just put it at this, is social media. It fits very well with the message before and perhaps what's being fed as a diet and the emboldening of people with, and men in this case, of certain views. Another message from one of our younger listeners. I'm 19 years old. Hello, Emma. I've definitely felt generally a more negative view on women and girls from my male peers.

In school, my friends and I were objectified by some male peers and misogynistic comments used often. Social media definitely plays a big part and schools need to emphasise the idea that feminism is about equality and equal opportunity, not women being better than men.

And so it continues. Let me come back to more of your messages. Absolutely fascinating. And thank you so much to our younger listeners for getting in touch. And it seems, bearing out what we're going to hear about in more detail shortly, about this attitudinal survey and research from around the world and closer to home in the UK.

Really interesting and pretty bleak. Come back to that shortly. But what is it like to go up against a system year after year? My next guest knows after her tax liability turned into a life-changing ordeal and a 10-year battle with HMRC. The tax authorities claimed she'd been underpaying her taxes, owing almost £125,000. She said she didn't and took HMRC to tribunal not once but three times and has been

vindicated. She is the TV presenter, Kay Adams. You may know her from Loose Women and of course BBC Radio Scotland. Good morning, Kay. Good morning, Emma. I'm actually fascinated in what you were talking about there. I studied politics 40 years ago, would you believe, and actually felt quite empowered as a young woman there. I think we're maybe going in the wrong direction, but that's a discussion for another day. Well, it's a discussion here, but it's not our discussion right now. But how fascinating to hear your take on it.

And I felt similarly. So the wrong direction does seem to be in that way, which is why we wanted to talk about it today. But I mentioned there the word, and I chose it carefully. I tried to choose my words carefully, vindicated. Looking at the statement from HMRC and what's actually happened to you, and we'll get to that detail very shortly, do you feel like

you've been vindicated, Kay? Well, thank you very much for picking up on that, actually, because the letter, the email that I got from them is we have decided not to pursue this. And that was at full stop. They gave a slightly fuller statement to the press, which was, we decide that this is not proportionate to pursue this at the time. At no point have they conceded that actually I have won. In fact, it's quite obvious they are not conceding it, which kind of leaves me with the question, you know, what is justice? You know, when you go through the first, I won't bore you with all this illegal technicalities, the first tribunal, you win it. The second tribunal, you win it.

They take you to the Court of Appeal, which declines to rule on my case, but says that an error in law has been committed by one of the earlier tribunals. So refers it back down to the original tribunal. And I win that one. And yet, you know, HMRC are saying, well, we have decided that it is not proportionate to pursue it, which, you know, I have described that as gaslighting and some people have questioned me on that and I've thought about it.

But I do think it is gaslighting because if you go through three tribunals and you win every one and they have never won on my case. And yet still they declined to say, OK, right. We take the word of the tribunals here. We're listening to what they're saying. Then then that's that's just leaving me in this limbo. And, you know, after 10 years of fighting this,

I waited for this moment that they would say, we're going to leave you alone. And I expected to feel elated. And I feel like a punch bag. Hold that thought and let me come back to it. For those who don't know what's happened to you, why were you accused of not paying enough tax? It relates to something

called IR35. Yeah. Well, yeah. And let me just say, I listened to that very powerful contribution from your earlier contributor, you know, that horrific attack. Please, I really don't want to be bleating about my position here. You know, bad things happen, rubbish things happen in your life, and this might be my little thing, you know. So I want to put it in perspective. You know, bad things happen, rubbish things happen in your life. And this might be my little thing, you know. So I want to put it in perspective and hopefully it's kind of over for me. But anyway, so IR35, so this is legislation which covers what was called disguised employment. So basically people who would work for the same person, the same employer, most of the time, nine to five, and they were being paid in such a way that the employer

was being able to pay less national insurance. So that's really the bit where the less tax comes in. Now, in the media business, and I'm sure you're familiar with this, Emma, when you're a freelance person, you want to work for as many people as you possibly can. You want to get as many jobs as you can with as many different engagers as you can. And that's what I did. I mean, I went freelance in the late 90s. I left a very secure job where I would have had all the pension benefits, redundancy, thickness, maternity, etc., because I decided to take my chances in the freelance market. And that's the way that I organized my affairs. It was perfectly routine in our industry and another industry, I have to say. You know, it was the kind

of, I'm not saying it was the majority, so I don't know, for people like me, it was incredibly common. You had a portfolio of work. You were out there as a self-employed person. You didn't want any of those benefits or employment rights. You wanted to sort of, you know, drive your own bus. And this is the way we organised our affairs because you have an agent nowadays, someone to help you with social media, et cetera, your own little business. And around 2014, there was no change in legislation, but HMRC decided to interpret the legislation in a different way. And that's what I have an issue with, to, quote, crack down on people and to try

and get more tax out of them. So one of the really egregious things about this is that it's retrospective. You're going along for 10, 15 years, filing your tax returns, everything's fine. There's nothing secretive about it. There's nothing hidden. And then suddenly, what you've been doing for 10 or 15 years is not okay. I mean, when I first got the letter from them, I thought they'd made a mistake. I genuinely wasn't worried about it. I thought they'd clearly made a mistake. And this has carried on, as you say, for a decade. And you've had many letters in that time.

And you've been through these processes. And you've carried on fighting it. We should say there's other high profile cases. Gary Lineker, Lorraine Kelly, Adrian Childs. Sorry, I believe there's some interruption on the line. Forgive us for that. Whether that's emails coming in or something. But you've carried on doing this.

What would you say the experience of dealing with HMRC has been like? Well, you're treated like a wrongdoer. You're treated like, well, I mean, I wouldn't say a criminal. Maybe that's too much. But you're treated like a wrongdoer. I mean, you know, I am just an ordinary Joe who went to university, who tried to work hard, who's built a career. You know, I might have had a few parking tickets, but that's about the limit, I think, of my wrongdoing. I generally am somebody who sticks by the rules. But suddenly you're cast in this position of a tax dodger, which to me, Emma,

I cannot express to you how horrific that is. You might as well call me a thief. I want to pay my taxes. I want to contribute. I work hard. I pay a lot of tax and I'm delighted to do so. So to somehow be cast in this role as somebody who's trying to cheat the system, that has been the most awful part of it. And for a long time, I carried a level of shame about that. But, you know, as it has gone on and I, you know, and so at first when I went to the first tribunal, I thought, you know what, I'll take the verdict. I'll take the verdict. If I've made a mistake, I'll take the verdict. But I won it. And then you go to the second one and I win it again. And then you think, well, what is going on here? Because I don't have

the resources to fight these legal battles. HMRC has the bottomless pit of the taxpayer's purse. I mean, this has cost me personally £200,000 to fight and get a victory. And they are offering virtually no costs whatsoever. If I had decided way back in 2014 to settle, I would be so much better off. Now, so the reason I am talking about this now is, what is justice? Where is the accountability here? And we're back to this David and Goliath scenario whereby a government organisation decides what the answer is and is ruddy well going to keep going until they get the answer they want. The statement that we have here from an HMRC spokesperson says we always seek to resolve disputes out of court and only take action. I'll finish just this bit. I don't like your response. No, noate where this isn't possible.

We carefully consider various factors when deciding whether to appeal litigation cases, including the tax we think is due under the law, whether clarification of that law would be helpful, and whether we can achieve that clarification in other ways. We're committed to treating all taxpayers with respect. What were you about to say there? Yeah, well, let me just respond to the first bit we seek to resolve without going to litigation. In my instance, that is a lie. And that's a very strong statement for me, but it's true. And I also know of many, many other people in my profession and other professions who've got in touch with me who would back me up on that.

They do not feel that there is any real, genuine, reasonable attempt to resolve things without litigation. But the other one, which is so important here for the bigger point, you know, we seek clarification. Right. The HMRC seeks clarification. Now, it's not a lawmaking body, HMRC. It's supposed to apply the law. Well, the law has been clarified to HMRC, in my particular instance, on three occasions. At first-year tribunal, at upper tribunal, and then right back down at a second first-year tribunal.

What I don't understand is why are they not saying, OK, that's lovely. Thank you very much. This case has now been heard in three different courts. They have all come to the same conclusion. We now have the clarification that we were looking for. Thank you very much. What do you think it is, Kay, about the culture? Because I've spoken to many people over the years, as I'm sure you have, where if they have come up against a system they actually don't get a resolution at the end of it there's no either apology or it was wrong even when it's been found in your case for you to have won these repeat tribunals there's no closing of the case and there's no conclusion. So you're left, as you've described it, in this limbo. Well, I mean, you know, I can't even believe I'm saying this because, you know, I'm a politics and

economics student. I believe in the rule of law. I believe in the establishment. But this has seriously diminished my faith because it does feel like the big guy with the power, and when I say guy, I'm not genderizing that, you know, the big guy with the power and when I say guy I'm not genderizing that you know the big force with the power does not want to be proved wrong has it has it changed you has it has it changed you as a person this experience um no I've always been bloody minded um I take it from my mother. I should have given up a long time ago. You know, that would have been the easy way out. I should have taken the easy way out. Why? If you felt shame and you've been proven that you hadn't doneed me was that they retained the power by saying, we have decided not to pursue this any further. So they retained the power instead of saying, three tribunals have found in this woman's favour and therefore we accept their verdict. And for me, there is a critical difference in that. But it does sound, even if it's not changed you as a person, it does sound like it's changed your view of how our society is run. Yeah, it has. It has. And I'm not trying to put

myself in the place of the sub-postmasters and postmistresses. I think, you know, the trials that they have been submitted to have been horrific. So please don't think I'm trying to put myself in that space. But I tell you, watching Mr. Bates versus the post office, and I was actually very aware of that story for quite a few years behind. Before, there was a very good podcast, BBC podcast as well. But watching that night after night, I just thought, yeah, I know exactly where you're coming from. And it was actually, I was sad for them, but I was kind of sad for all of us as well.

It can be hard to explain these sorts of cases. And sympathy can be short on the ground, which I imagine you... And I'm not looking for sympathy. No, no, no. But I imagine you've kind of baked that in when deciding whether to speak out about this experience. But something must have driven you to do that. And what is it? Well, it's that. It's accountability. You know, I mean, we live in a, I still think we live in a brilliant country and there's lots that's great about our country, you know, and I know we are very negative about it at times because these are difficult times.

But our institutions, our government has to work for us. It has to be fair. It has to be transparent and it has to be accountable. And that is important. And in this instance, I don't feel it has been. And if you had your time again on this, a couple of quick fires if I may, would you fight it again? Yes. And going right back to that initial advice

that you and many others were given about how to structure your affairs, do you think about that differently? No, it was absolutely commonplace. I know it was but it's interesting when somebody's come to the end of something and you will have given this great thought it's been 10 years of your life so it's good to hear what you feel about it no i think the advice at the time was perfectly legitimate and more importantly hmrc thought the advice was perfectly legitimate for many, many, many years. They never questioned it.

They were quite comfortable with it. They changed their position on it, but they just failed to tell the rest of us, you know, so, you know, and I get the sympathy thing, because you don't pay your taxes. I do pay my taxes. I pay a lot of taxes. The reason that I structured my affairs that way, as others did, was for flexibility so that I could work for lots of people at the same time if I was so lucky to be given these opportunities. And, you know, when you do work in the way that I do, you have an agent you give 15 percent to, you have other people to support your bookkeeping, admin, etc. So you're like a little business that was it above board nothing to hide finally okay i could talk to you for much longer and it's lovely to have you on the program i should say how are you going to get over this how are you gonna because it's not the that closure if i could call it that isn't coming from hmrc how are you going to move on do you think oh you

you do move on in life don't you you get perspective you know i sat and listened to uh aisha at the beginning and you think god i'm a lucky lucky person i know i'm a lucky lucky person but on this occasion i just think it's important to make a bit of noise yesterday i was asking our listeners and we got some fantastic responses how they get their rage out i don't know if you saw this gwyneth paltrow's taken to buying a plastic bat and hitting stuff arlene foster uh the first former uh Minister of Northern Ireland, told us that she goes into a room and sings Meatloaf. So maybe that will inspire you, both of those stories. Funnily enough, although I know I sound like I'm probably a raging manic right now,

I'm not an angry person. I'm not. Frustration. There's frustration. I'm angry at this, but I'm not an angry person. So how I do it is I take my dog, I go for a walk through the park, I get a cup of coffee and I think, do you know what, Kay, you're a lucky person. It's very good to talk to you. That sounds a good way to do it. Although the bat and meatloaf also appeal to people, I have to say. It is appealing. I might give it a try. Okay, Adam, thank you very much indeed. Let's get to then some of the data, some of the research and what it shows around the

differences of especially younger men and women at the moment in terms of how they view each other and how they view the world around them. We've got so many fascinating messages on this. I promise to come back to them. But historically, the views of men and women in the same generations have been relatively similar. It makes sense. Similar upbringings, formative experiences, coming of age at the same time. But recent research seems to show there is this ideological gap opening up between the younger generations, those under the age of 30. Data shows that in countries on every continent in the world, young women are becoming much more liberal than young men. And while women under 30 are increasingly likely to identify themselves as progressive and take more liberal positions on issues such as immigration, gender, racial justice, for instance,

their male counterparts remain more conservative. And today, Ipsos polling of 3,600 people for King's College London's Policy Unit Institute, rather, and the Global Institute for Women's Leadership found one in four UK males aged 16 to 29 believe it is harder to be a man than a woman. And a fifth now look favourably on social media influencer Andrew Tate, who I was telling you about before. Does this ideological gender divide have resonance in your life? For some of you, it does. What does it mean? Professor Rosie Campbell, Director of the Global Institute for Women's Leadership at King's that we just mentioned, is on the line. And so is Dr. Alice Evans, also from King's College, looking at the global data. Welcome to you both. Dr. Alice Evans, I'll come to you first. What are we seeing? Tell us a bit more.

Thank you so much. So there does. So first of all, I think it's important to recognize that in many of these countries, everyone is becoming much more gender equal. The world has made enormous progress towards gender equality. Young men in particular are more gender equal than their grandparents and grandparents. But there is a sense, and it seems associated with economic resentment and frustration, that men feel threatened, that some men, a small minority, maybe 16% of men, so a small, small minority of men, do feel that women's gains might be at their expense. So there is a minority of men who do feel threatened that women may be getting these handouts that they don't have. And is that driving the conservatism?

So young women are becoming much more progressive, concerned about gender inequality, concerned about racial bias. But young men aren't becoming as liberal as women are. And do we know what that is? You've mentioned that it could be because of the gender equal games. I like the fact you started with a positive, always good, to get that perspective. Is it only because of that? Are there other forces? Absolutely. So I think there are likely three possible explanations. One is that younger generations across in many countries see these zero sum mentalities, the idea that there is a fixed basket of goods. And if you are getting an apple, that means fewer apples for me. And so the zero sum mentality seems associated with economic stagnation or economic immobility. So in parts

of Europe and indeed England, where there's been economic stagnation, long term or rising unemployment, we've seen votes for the far right, votes for Brexit, votes for populist parties. And that's a similar idea that immigrants or women are taking our gains. So that's partly an economic cause, but also young people are coming of age where there have been cultural changes. So news corporations in a bid to garner publicity have been pushing negative stories like terrible atrocities, pumping people with terrible stories. There's also been a rise. And so people getting these, you know, and social media bubbles can also create these filter bubbles, you know, highlighting the most extreme examples, highlighting these outliers that don't represent everyone else's views, and then making them seem into a larger story. And then cultural entrepreneurs like Andrew Tate, for example,

can harness that economic resentment, harness that negativity, and then speak to men and say, hey, listen, you're struggling economically and that's not your fault. It's the fault of these immigrants or it's the fault of these women. So it could be partly technological and then these filter bubbles sort of reinforce that group thing. So on the manosphere, you know, if men are self-selecting into these echo chambers where they're hearing negative stories, then they continue to be, that story is reinforced because social media corporations want to keep users hooked. And they do that by feeding them information

that appeals to their priors and then showing them sensationalist polarising content, which only makes them more inflamed and stay tuned. So this is partly a story about technology, about culture, but also economics. And certain countries, you can see it through the politics, can't you? The support that men are giving to certain parties versus what women are doing. And it's starker in certain countries. Could you give us an example? Absolutely. So I was recently in Poland, where young men were more likely to vote for right-wing parties. The most extreme case would be in South Korea, where last year, young men, specifically young men, voted for an ardently anti-feminist president. And so in South Korea, because it's a historically patriarchal country with a strong son bias, men face the world's worst dating market because there are many parents who are aborting their baby girls.

So now young men far outnumber young women. And so all those men, they're not only struggling economically, but they can't get dates or wives. And so because of that economic resentment, their inability to date or achieve status, they turn to the manosphere and start venting and reinforcing each other's beliefs that the world is unfair to them and women are being graspy and greedy. And so this isn't a good example of how through culture we can create this world that is totally out of step with reality. In fact, Korea has the largest gender pay gap in the OECD. But people can get into these echo chambers of group think and deluding ourselves into thinking that the world is stacked against us, for example, when really it's not.

Professor Rosie Campbell, let me bring you into this. What is your research showing? Well, we're looking specifically in the UK and we were digging into attitudes towards gender equality and feminism. I have to say, starting with a positive as well, there are lots and lots of different survey questions where men and women and young men and women didn't really differ. We're highlighting where they did. But when it comes to questions about whether feminism has done more harm than good, whether toxic masculinity is a helpful or unhelpful term, or whether Andrew Tate, you know, his views are abhorrent or whether you support them, we do see this gender divide that Alice is describing with younger men more supportive of the anti-feminist position. And younger women, particularly one thing that I've noticed is that

younger women being very strongly feminist in their position compared to older generations of women. What do you take from that then? I'm so fascinated. When we started to see this about four or five years ago, I thought the difference we're seeing in young men was a bit of a blip in the data because what we've seen for a very long time is a trend of convergence with younger people becoming more liberal in their attitudes towards gender equality. But what we've seen is more and more data and Alice brings this global data into the conversation that reinforces this. And I can't help but think that Alice is right. What's the big thing that's changed? It's not suddenly that we have achieved gender equality and gone beyond it and that women suddenly, we've got a matriarchy.

That's not what's happened. So why would young men feel so differently from older men? And I think the one big change we can see is how we get our information. So I agree with Alice. I think it's very likely that the way we use technology has an important role to play in this. I'm looking through the messages. We are getting many. For one here that says, I have two sons aged 20 and 23 both at university, both despise Andrew Tate and what he stands for, both despise and are alarmed

by a right wing agenda, both are active in socialist politics and campaigning for equal rights, they don't feel threatened by women I'm very proud of them says Laura because we just had a whole space, I don't know if you could hear them you were with us at that point of messages from younger people talking about the groups that you're talking about that some would find very concerning. But another one here from a 41 year old man saying, I've noticed an unsettling culture among frightening, frightening young boys as young as 11 of overt woman hatred, aggressive sexualized attitudes towards women and girls.

One friend's son, who's now 13, openly talks about being predatory towards girls his age and looks forward to going out on the prowl using language my generation had left behind 20 years ago. He's an Andrew Tate fan, of course. He openly despises women

having prominence in sports and sports commentary, and he's extremely hostile towards women and girls, generally starting with his own mother. I think we are witnessing a worrying new trend, a sort of reactionary misogyny, and what's unprecedented is the age at which it starts. Just a chance to respond to both of that, knowing both of you, knowing the research as you do. Alice, what would you say to that? Well, I think there are always going to be people who've seen misogyny and seen

sexism, right? But systematically, the world is, and especially Britain, is the most gender equal it's ever been. And I think we need to be careful not to give our daughters and young women the false impression that the world is stacked against them and that everyone is going to be incredibly sexist, because that could only breed despondency and anxiety and mistrust, which is not what we want. And because it's not accurate or helpful. But it's that question, isn't it, Rosie, about the other side of that is if boys, and you know, I think about this myself, having a boy and a girl now, but I've thought about it anyway, but if boys receive and see a lot of the feminist messages and they don't have the context for it, there could be this reactionary misogyny that we're hearing about. I think that's right. And I think we do need to remind ourselves, it is a minority of boys,

just like the first listener said. But, you know, 20%, you know, that's a lot of kids in a classroom that could be exposing both other boys and girls to really harmful behavior and messages. So I do find that really alarming. And I do think, you know, unwittingly, some of us have had a role to play. Now, I've got two daughters, they're teenagers now. And, you know, when they were kids, there's so many books about inspiring women through history and so on. And I do worry whether we do enough to communicate with boys to sort of to talk about what it is to be a man in the modern world. And I think all young people start to look beyond their family and their immediate circle to find their identities. And we have not been aware enough about the dangers of social media and actually about exactly what Alice describes,

how you can end up in a completely, completely parallel universe. And I think we are beginning to understand that. But we need to work much harder to think about what are the interventions. I mean, my daughter said to me about a boy in primary school who was shouting at other girls down the corridor to, you know, turn around and drop themselves and show their bums. I mean, it's just shocking. I can't imagine that would have happened when I was at school. So it's a big problem. And I think we need to recognise it. And we really need to think about what we're going to do to address it. And have you, I mean, where is it with your research? And just because of your UK lens,

is there anything you're seeing that is a good response to this? Well, it's early days to understanding. I mean, our traditional research methods tend to ask things like, what newspaper do you read? So, you know, we've got a lot to do to understand this phenomenon better. What snippets of news have you watched for 10 seconds? But I do think that actually identifying the problem is a big part of starting to resolve it. And we're having this conversation. And, you know, young men, they're seeing more women go to university. We don't talk enough about issues like men's mental health.

We suddenly we need to talk about gender equality and the benefits for men. And we need to have a corrective to the conversation so that more men feel included in that conversation. Absolutely fascinating. Thank you to both of you, Professor Rosie Campbell, Dr Alice Evans. Really interesting to get some of these perspectives. And yes, also good to stress the positives

and put this in perspective. A message here. I'm a 22 year old man. I believe all these horrifying statistics about Gen Z's opinions would be significantly reduced if they didn't use social media. I do not use it.

People should be influenced by their experiences in life, not what they see online. Sadly, hate and division gets more views and attention online than any other form of content. It's in influencers' financial interests to create these opinions. Everyone should pick up a book, speak to people around them and form their own opinions through healthy debate. And just one more here. I'm a 48-year-old mother of three sons aged between 10 and 14. I'm inherently feminist and I'm frequently shocked that my sons seem to kick against feminism. I'm sure you've got some interesting conversations at the table, the kitchen table. I have observed that the pretty liberal media have surrounded them all their

lives and often have female supportive messages. Cartoons, films and books have very strong female characters that often rescue useless males, for exampleartoons, films and books have very strong female characters that often rescue useless males, for example. I've looked for books that explain feminism to young males. I can't find any. And while there are loads of this rebel girl can type books to encourage, are young girls. Even in schools, the pro-female message is hammered home to them.

I love this as a feminist woman, but I do think it's confusing for young boys and men. Are they not allowed to be strong and successful too? Says Rosalind, who's listening. Good morning to you. I'm sure there's some suggestions fellow listeners can make along those lines, but thank you for sharing your views. I'll come back to them if I can. named after a favourite relative or a character in a movie, or perhaps just because your parents liked it and liked the sound of it. My next guest wanted to mark the anniversary of St. Bridget, one of the patron saints of Ireland. The photographer, Deirdre Brennan, decided to invite all those with the same name and versions of the same name from all over Ireland to come and pose for a photograph.

Bridget often pronounces Bridget. I'll get a bit of clarification on that and tell her how they felt sharing their name with this saint. She joins me now, as does one of the Bridgets involved, Bridget MacDonald, a farmer from Northern Ireland, from County Antrim in Northern Ireland. Deirdre, Bridget, Bridget, tell me. Oh, good. Thank you very much for inviting me on the show. So, you know, there's actually two Bridget's. There's also Bridget the Goddess. She was one of the most important pre-Christian goddesses in Ireland that was worshipped by the Druids. So

a lot of the women would have an affinity either with Saint Bridget or with the goddess Bridget. So I suppose how the idea came about, a lot of my work is inspired by social and literary anniversaries. And, you know, coming up to the 1500th anniversary of the death of St. Bridget, like all good ideas that came to me one morning while I was making a cup of tea, I thought I will do a portrait photography project on women named Bridgette. So then I, you know, I set about finding or looking for Bridgette. So it's not the most popular name anymore in Ireland. So I was delighted that I photographed a way. I did actually find a lot of women and children. So I photographed women and children named Bridget Ard's iterations from eight weeks of age to 106 years of age. Wow. And just before we speak to a subject here, St. Bridget, tell us about her. St. Bridget was, she was born in 450 in Faherd. She was an abbess who founded a monastic community in County Calder in the 5th century.

So the themes that are associated with Bridget, she's the patron saint of a lot of things, wisdom, inspiration, poetry, healing. She's also the patron saint of livestock. And, you know, if you will, I could tell you a story later, this most incredible story about this little girl whose life was saved by having the valve from a calf put into her heart. And her name was Bridget. So it was such an extraordinary coincidence that Bridget is the patron saint of cattle. And this calf saved this little girl's life. OK, let me bring in, I feel a bit rude on this particular day, not to talk to Bridget.

Good morning, Bridget MacDonald. Hi. Where's your name from? Is it something in the family? Yeah. My great-grandmother was Bridget. I had an aunt Bridget. I've actually named my own daughter Bridget.

And so it's sort of come through, you know, as a female Bridget's sort of in living memory, if I can put it like that. And how do you feel about your name? What was it like growing up? Well, I grew up in sort of late 60s, early 70s, and obviously went through the troubles in Northern Ireland being called Bridget, which was often perceived as a tricolour around my head. So if you went to company or something like that, was often perceived as a tricolour around my head.

So if you went to company or something like that and people wanted to know what your name was, I was always immediately identified as a Catholic. So that was one aspect of being called Bridget. So you get some negative things there, but there was a lot of good things as well because you were the patron saint of Ireland and you could always claim to have saintly virtues and get a bit of a laugh I'm definitely not the goddess definitely not the goddess okay yeah the saint not the goddess I like that delineation

yeah has it got you out of some trouble saying yeah that that's saintly quality yeah well I mean you know I was the youngest of our family. And, you know, I know Deirdre touched there on the, you know, the sort of making of St. Bridget's Cross, it's that whole concept of, you know, Bridget being the patron saint of animals, you know, different animals, farm animals. So where I live and throughout enormous amounts of Ireland, I'm sure rural Ireland anyway, you know,

last night we'd have got rushes in and made St. Bridget's crosses, which then were put out in buyers and things to, you know, to sort of basically protect the herd or whatever was in that, you know, from harm. And the youngest member of the house should go out to collect the rushes and come back and knock the door. And then regardless of what their name is, whoever's in the house says, come in, Bridget. And in my case, I was the youngest and I was Bridget,

so it all fit in quite nicely. Yeah. And as a sheep farmer, that obviously speaks to your line of work. And also, we're the highest hill farm in County Antrim, so we've got plenty of rushes, which are the means of making the crosses. So it all comes together. And just, I mean, this has nothing to do

with your particular name, but I'm always fascinated when people give the same name that they have to their daughter or son. Was that something that you had planned to do? No, it wasn't actually. I was sick when my daughter was christened and my husband and I debated, you know, what names, what names, what names,

and we hadn't come to any conclusion. And in the end, I think it was a sort of almost collective family decision. The baby went to the chapel to get christened and when I turned up, everybody seemed to have decided that Bridget was a good name for her. So she would call Bridget then. And it just came.

And I spoke to her this morning and I asked her, when she was a child, she didn't like being called Bridget. She'd have liked to have a more sort of modern Irish name, I suppose. And I asked her there just about half an hour ago,

how do you feel now about being called Bridget? And she said, I like it. She said, I like it. She said, I like it. She said, she thought it was, you know, a clear sort of definite name. It said something.

And she said she'd been, she lives in England now. She doesn't live there, she's at university there. But she said at any rate, she went to a hunt or something and somebody said to her, she was introduced as Bridget and somebody at the hunt said oh i take it you're irish you know before she spoke so um i think she likes that sort of identification as as irish good to talk to you dear to come back in terms of the women who you photographed all with this name and and the stories is there one that sticks out for you well i think um something that um the strength of all the women i photographed because uh you know it is a name that's associated like bridget the goddess and the saint are associated with strength so all the women and children just seemed like very strong women.

So I think the story that stuck out to me the most was Bridget Winery. She was three years of age. She was born with Down syndrome and at eight months she had cardiac arrest and the initial surgery

was not a success. So the doctors and surgeons at Crumlin Children's Hospital in Dublin proposed this new surgery where the valve from a calf is inserted into the mitral position of the heart. Oh, this is this story. Okay, this is the one you were mentioning before. The surgery was a great success and she's now three years of age. She's running around, she's eating and she's starting school in September. So the fact that

St. Bridget is the patron saint of cattle is just such an incredible coincidence. So this little calf and of course, the doctors and the nurses saved her life. So I just think it's an extraordinary coincidence. It is. Fascinating to talk to you, to learn more. And I suppose spelt as Bridget, but pronounced as Bridget. Is that how it goes? Bridget, yes. It's a number of different spellings. Number of different spellings. And of course, I've got a few messages from one woman, for instance,

who says her full name is Bridget Jones. So that's led to a whole other association and scenario. Thank you very much to Deirdre Brennan talking to us on St. Bridget's Day. And Bridget MacDonald there, a farmer from County Antrim in Northern Ireland. Some new facts in your mind there. I hope to take you on your way today and many messages, fascinating messages about our difference of opinion between younger men

and younger women. Some concern about for instance here I worry pro-equality discussions and the vocabulary and tone can be lazy and lacking nuance and quite derogatory statements can be made and applied to men in general. So a call for that to change from Glenn who's listening.

Women's Hour back tomorrow, of course, from 10 o'clock. Anita will be joined by the author of Sex and the City, Candice Bushnell. So do not miss that. I will not. Having started to re-watch some of it recently, so I'm sure that'll be a brilliant discussion about some of the changes and impact. And perhaps for some of this, I'll come into it, how younger women and men have changed their views and their needs for each other.

All that to come tomorrow at 10. Thank you for your company. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Thank you so much for your time. Join us again for the next one. 30 years ago, Britain's farms were hit by an epidemic of an infectious brain disorder. They called it mad cow disease. I'm Lucy Proctor, and in The Cows Are Mad from BBC Radio 4, I tell the story of a very weird time in our history. The media started calling me the mad cow professor. Mad cow disease rampaged through Britain, first killing cows and then humans. And the thing is, after all this time, nobody knows for sure where mad cow disease originally came from. The general feeling is that we will never know the answer. Subscribe to The Cows Are Mad on BBC Sounds.

I'm Sarah Treleaven and for over a year I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who's faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.