Woman's Hour - Keira Knightley and Sarah Lancashire, Raye, Stalking

Episode Date: December 3, 2024

Powerhouse actors Keira Knightley and Sarah Lancashire are starring alongside Ben Wishaw in new Netflix spy drama Black Doves. It follows the story of a female spy seeking revenge for the murder of her lover – whilst outwardly being married to a high-ranking politician. Keira and Sarah speak to Nuala McGovern about the drama, their careers and their experiences as women in the film industry. Victims of stalking could be given more protection from their abusers under new government proposals. The Home Office has today revealed six new measures to tackle the problem of stalking which is so prolific - official figures show that one in five women aged 16 and over in England and Wales have been a victim of stalking at least once. The new rules would include the right for victims to know the identity of online stalkers much sooner, and a wider use of stalking protection orders, as well as a review of current stalking legislation. Emma Lingley-Clark interim CEO at the Suzy Lamplugh Trust responds to the announcement.73-year-old Jane Rubens from Edinburgh was enjoying a holiday in the US when the worst thing happened. Whilst crossing a walkway in St Louis, Missouri she was hit by an SUV. She suffered a serious brain injury, broken ribs and a fractured collarbone. After multiple brain surgeries, she is now in an induced coma in a US hospital. Against medical advice, the insurance provider AXA Partners gave her family an ultimatum, fly her home to Scotland immediately, or they'll remove funding for her hospital care. Her daughter, Cat Rubens, tells Nuala how she used social media to fight the company’s decision. Raye has been named as one of the people on this year's BBC 100 Women list, which celebrates 100 inspiring and influential women from around the world every year. This year she won six Brit awards including songwriter of the year - the first time a woman has been given that particular accolade. We hear her speaking to BBC 100 Women’s Kirsty Grant about her huge success and the pressure she feels female artists are under. Presenter: Nuala McGovern Producer: Kirsty Starkey

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2. And of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme. Peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, this is Nuala McGovern and you're listening to the Woman's Hour podcast. Hello and welcome to the programme. Well, in just a couple of minutes we will have quite the acting duo for you that are making their way to the Woman's Hour studio as I speak. I'm talking about Sarah Lancashire and Keira Knightley. Amazing, right? Well, they've teamed up for the Netflix series Black Doves

and it has been raising my heart rate a little when I've been watching it. So we'll talk about that. Also today, the woman who took to social media to battle an insurance giant to protect her mother who suffered a severe brain injury while abroad. We're going to hear that story. And you may have seen and heard that stalking victims

are set to be given improved protection from their abusers under newly revealed government proposals. We'll talk about that. And we'll also hear from Ray. The singer is one of the BBC's 100 women this year. So we'll hear part of an interview with her. Plus, MasterChef presenter Greg Wallace has apologised for

suggesting allegations against him came from, and I quote, a handful of middle class women of a certain age, unquote. But despite his latest post, the conversations continue unabated. Zoe Williams, writing in The Guardian today, said thank you, Greg Wallace. She said

I'm still going to savour this moment that he said the quiet part out loud, tried to make some combination of age, sex and class sufficient criteria to write us off as irrelevant noise. Bliss was it in that dawn to be alive, but to be a middle-class woman of a certain age was very heaven. Well, we have seen a sisterhood of women of a certain age was very heaven. Well, we have seen

a sisterhood of women of a certain age rising up that possibly in part led to that latest apology from Wallace. But we often hear about women of a certain age feeling invisible or disregarded. Greg Wallace has, due to the allegations,

put them front and centre for days now. Allegations, I should say, that his lawyers deny. But what are your thoughts on being in the centre of attention? How does it feel to make the headlines in every paper and call-in show, being a woman of a certain age? Are you with Zoe Williams, enjoying the moment? Or would you prefer that the media doesn't draw attention to women of a certain age?

You can text the programme. The number is 84844. Text will be charged at your standard message rate on social media. We're at BBC Women's Hour. Or you can email us through our website. For a WhatsApp message or a voice note, use the number 03700 100 444.

How does it feel to be seen as a woman of a certain age? But let us begin with new government proposals that could give victims of stalking more protections from their abusers. The Home Office has today revealed six new measures to tackle the problem of stalking, which is so prolific. Official figures show that one in five women aged 16 and over in England and Wales have been a victim of stalking at least once. Now, the new rules would include the right for victims to know the identity of online stalkers much sooner

and a wider use of stalking protection orders, as well as a review of current stalking legislation. The proposals have been set up with the help of broadcaster and activist Nicola Thorpe whose stalker is currently serving a 30-month jail sentence. Earlier Nicola spoke to Kate Burley on Sky News about her experience being stalked by an unknown man online. For me it was extremely difficult for the first two years because this man created almost 30 different online profiles to stalk and harass me. So for a while, it took me six months or so to realize it was actually the same individual. But the most difficult point

came when I was told by the police that he'd actually been arrested. They identified who he was. And after those two years, I kind of breathed a sigh of relief and thought, fantastic, who is he? This mystery man who's made my life miserable. And they said, we can't tell you. They couldn't tell me whether it was somebody that I knew, somebody that I used to know, a colleague or even an ex-partner. And I think that was the point at which I became more paranoid and more upset. And that's why I've campaigned for the past year and a half to get victims the right to know the identity of their online stalker. Have you found out who your stalker was?

Yes, I did. I found out in, sadly, an unconventional way. I found out his name when I went to court for a stalking protection order against him. And actually, the first time that I came face to face with him, the first time that I saw what this man who terrorized me for so long looked like was when I went to court to read out my victim impact statement. As many people know, when you go to court, you go through a kind of security style, sorry, airport style security system.

And he was the man in front of me. I heard him say his name to the security guard and I just froze. I finally got to know what this man actually looked like in the worst possible setting and ended up having to sit with him in a waiting room for half an hour before our court session began. So yeah, it was terrifying and upsetting and not something that any victim of stalking should have to go through. Very powerful, shocking testimony there from Nicola Thorpe. I'm joined by the CEO of the Susie

Lamplew Trust, that is Emma Lingley-Clark. Welcome, Emma, to Woman's Hour. First, just your thoughts, I think, on hearing a little of Nicola there. I think we hear from a lot of victims on the National Stalking Helpline. And, you know, this is not an uncommon experience and hasn't been. Just the way that stalking victims are treated in general

has over the years been appalling. Why was that an aspect that victims of online stalking didn't know or weren't able to learn the identity of their stalker? I think some of it is around the place within police procedure. So it's sort of depending on where the procedure has got to, so whether or not the person's been convicted and all of those things. It was almost like a little loophole in relation to the fact that, you know, someone did, if they've not been convicted in theory, you can't necessarily release their identity.

But the whole that for us demonstrates the severe lack of understanding of stalking, because in these cases, you know, it can be somebody that you have no idea who they are, yet they are so, you know, so interwoven into your life that really it's only fair that you're able to kind of know who they are. And also there's often an expectation that you have to protect yourself. And so it's really important that someone is aware so they have those things in place. And also, I think Nicola put it so well there in the sense of having to be hyper aware of everything and everybody because not knowing where the threat is actually coming from. So will that change with these proposed measures?

So what we would hope to see is that yes, that victims will be able to ask and get the answers around who might be stalking them. But in terms of the sort of all of the measures, we're really pleased to see the things that have been announced today. They answer some of the questions that we've been asking for a number of years. Can you go through some of them for us? Yeah, definitely. So one of the first ones is around the legislation. We know that the current legislation in England and Wales is quite complicated in terms of proving the points in law, as it were. And so so as a result what we want to do is actually review the legislation look at examples for example in Scotland and Northern Ireland they have a standalone stalking event so we want to look at that but also look at the almost the definition of stalking

and how we can improve that and we also are looking at some more they are committed to multi-agency statutory stalking guidance, which for us is really important because I think there needs to be recognition that stalking is not just a police issue. We need every agency to play a role in the prevention and all the way through to the sort of work with perpetrators. Can I pop back for a moment?

That issue that you talked about as a standalone that Northern Ireland has, for example, what's the difference there? Why is that helpful? So what we have at the moment in England and Wales is that you have to prove harassment to prove stalking. And that's some of the issue, because also there is, although we sort of use the idea that fixation and obsession is what differentiates stalking from harassment, for a police officer on the ground, it can be quite difficult to actually determine those things. But also there's something around, you know, we have two stalking offences, one where there's no fear of violence, one where there is. And from our perspective, we're not 100 100 convinced that really there's any cases where there is no fear of violence or or severe alarm and distress which is the other part of the

offence so it's all a little bit um it all needs to be reviewed to actually make sure that we are getting the legislation that means that more perpetrators are brought to justice so part of it you talk about the standalone i mean that is quite something to prove fixation and obsession yeah yeah I haven't thought about that before yeah so we don't have that and we wouldn't and our view is that we wouldn't necessarily want that brought into the definition of the law because that would potentially mean that you would have to have somebody you know to actually psychologically say they're fixated and obsessed so getting the definition of stalking right around any legislation would also need to be really, would be a really important part of it. So on the whole, you are in favour of some of the proposals that are being suggested. But we do hear a lot on this programme, though

there are stalking protections that sound good, in practice, at times they're not used by the police. What is your experience of that? And also, do you see these measures being any different? So stalking protection orders in particular, so the new measure is that they will be able to be used on conviction or acquittal. So similar to a restraining order, because what we currently see is that restraining orders are still used as opposed to stalking protection orders. And what we do know is that the number of stalking protection orders is still really really low and that actually the main focus needs to be on getting those in place as early as possible because that's when the protection really kicks in for the victim and also it's about also there's possibility for

interventions with the perpetrator and starting those as soon as possible is key. Anything missed off the list that you feel they should have added? Well, we're still obviously awaiting details on how, when these methods will be introduced, kind of what the time scales are. But also from our perspective, we are a national charity. We are still awaiting to see what the you know the budget will be that supports this and also there are a number of specialist stalking organizations that are still waiting to know exactly what their funding will be beyond March 25. So for us there's

something around the commitment to funding specialist services that do a lot of the work to kind of keep victims engaged within the criminal justice process and beyond. Emma Lingley-Clark, who is the CEO of the Susie Lamplugh Trust, thank you so much for joining us on Woman's Hour. A lot of you getting in touch, I was asking about what's it like being in the spotlight as being a woman of a certain age. This is Emma. I find Greg Wallace's comments laughable and ignorant. As if being a middle class, middle class,

I think it's middle class, middle aged, I think woman is an insult. Don't threaten me with a good time. Middle aged women are as glorious as often.

We have stopped trying to please people. We have the knowledge and the courage to fight for what's right. Shame on you, Greg, but hopefully this will be an educational experience

for you and the women in your life will take mercy. I adore being a woman of a certain age but there's still an element of shame to be so confident while being called in so-called decline. All Greg Wallace has done is unite us and highlight to the wider world the iniquity of what many men think and feel. Do you agree with those comments? Do you disagree? Are you shouting at your radio? 84844 if you'd like to get in touch. Let me turn to two very special guests

that have just come into the Woman's Hour studio right now. We first met Ciara Knightley as Jules in Bended Like Beckham. Then she shot to global fame at 17 after her first appearance as Elizabeth in Pirates of the Caribbean. Since then, she's hit the big screen with a huge range of films. Pride and Prejudice, The Imitation Game, Atonement, one of my favourites. Her work, I've seen her nominated for two Oscars. And beside

Ciara is Sarah Lancashire, who started out in the 90s on Coronation Street. Since then, huge TV dramas. I know huge lovers of Happy Valley will be listening and what I have really loved Last Tango in Halifax. She won a BAFTA for her roles in each of those.

Well, they've teamed up together alongside Ben Whishaw to star in a new Netflix spy thriller, Black Doves. It follows the story of Helen Webb, a woman who leads a double life as a politician's wife and a ruthless spy, a super spy. And when her lover is murdered, she sets about getting revenge alongside her colleague Sam,

watched over by the steely-hearted Mrs. Reid. Welcome to both of you. Good morning. Good morning. Well, let's talk about this series. I was saying to my listeners earlier, when I watch it, and I've watched it for a few nights, kind of just before going to bed, but the heart rate, I know. Complete, I kind of do my yoga and then like get my heart pumping again.

Yeah, don't sleep all night. Exactly, having dreams of people jumping through buildings. But you play Helen Webb in the series, Ciara, and you're the wife of this very ambitious higher politician. This is your first TV role in quite a while. I'm wondering how you're finding it.

You seem to be having fun, but it's quite a physical role. It is. It's a physical role. There are fight scenes. When I said yes to it, there weren't. Oh, interesting. Ben Whishaw was doing all the fighting because he's playing the assassin. And I thought, oh, great, you know, I'll learn my lines, but I'll just go in. I don't have to do any of that.

And then rewrite after rewrite, you know, there are a couple of gun battles. I thought that's still OK. And then suddenly I'm knife fighting and I'm jumping out of windows. Yeah, so there was a lot, a lot of running about. I got very fit. I was about to say, what about the preparation for that? I did about a month beforehand and we did boxing and jujitsu and some sort of Filipino knife fighting that has a very good name.

And I've forgotten what the name is. But, you know, I felt it was quite good on the school run. Everybody was like, hey, how was your day? I'm fighting again. You know, it was quite exciting. And if we turn to Mrs. Reid, she wasn't that happy at times with some of your knife fights. No more knife fights, as she tells her at one point. Sarah, how would you describe your character?

I would say she is almost a villain. Well, can we come back to that? Because I was just thinking that actually you're sort of running around all over the place and Reed is the most inert, static character that I have ever played. She just doesn't move. She either stands or lurks or sits. In the same

coat. In the same coat. I have a wardrobe full of sort of great coats, but yes, indeed. Now, as I was talking about, would you describe yourself, not yourself, your character as a villain?

Well, I think she's firm, but fair. Oh gosh, she's firm. She would not your character as a villain? Well, I think she's firm but fair. Oh gosh, she's firm. She would not describe her as a villain. I wouldn't. It's that strange thing, isn't it? When you're involved in, I suppose in any organisation and you've sworn allegiance to them, then you really wouldn't

question what you're doing and she clearly isn't paid to have a moral compass at all. Highest bidder. She sells to the highest bidder. I mean, I think what I loved about the whole thing is there is a question mark over if there are any goodies in this whatsoever, because I don't think my character may be a sociopath, you know, and Ben Whishaw's character is an assassin I mean we have the the moral compass

of all of them is deeply questionable. I think that's what draws you in though because you're trying to find out who's the goody who's the baddie but it's not linear like that in any way and actually at first when I pop it on as I often do when I'm preparing for something a woman's error I don't read anything I don't look at anything I like to just go into it. That's the best way of doing it. Oh it it? Oh, it is, totally. So I see you and you're doing your thing and then all of a sudden, plot twist. And then you turn up, Sarah,

at kind of a clandestine meeting. But I was thrilled to see both of you on screen together in that way. What's it been like for you, Ciara? I mean, you haven't worked together in that way. No, we've't worked together in that way no we've never worked together before no I mean it was it was do you know it was it was a wonderful group of people and I think the fact you know we're doing a it's a spy show it's slightly silly

I mean we do get I mean in the whole the whole plot is spread over a week Sarah is nodding and laughing I mean we were all going I mean me and Ben get blown out of I get blown out of one building he gets blown out of two in a week there's not a scratch on him you know i mean so we are in that world of like it is faintly ridiculous so i think we laughed an awful lot when i watched it last night i was watching it with my husband and a couple of times like i go to bed quite early i was like we need to finish like this episode and he's like i want to keep watching it it's really good he's like she is she you kira slash Helen, is really enjoying this. I was really enjoying it.

I think my inner teenager was so thrilled. And I was like, it's the closest I've ever got to sort of playing a mafia boss or something, you know. So I was really enjoying it. But actually, Sarah, I would say you are the mafia boss. You are, in fact, the boss, yeah. Isn't it interesting? Because I've never really seen her as being a sort of a baddie in any shape or... I'm not saying baddie, but she is taking no nonsense.

Oh, no. I mean, she's quite... I think she's terrifying. I think she's terrifying. I mean, she's so controlled and controlling and really deft at what she does. Manipulation as well. She is. I mean, she's a fantastic... When I think about the psyche behind what informs who she is. Yes. And how she's clearly given the best years of her life to this organisation. And they call her Mrs. Reid.

Yes. I don't think she's married. No, I don't think she's married. I think it's a fantastically convenient camouflage. That really struck me, actually, when she said Mrs. I don't see how she can be married because she knows too much. She's in an organisation where really, and unfortunately, I mean, Helen is also in this organisation. And you really, you gather so much information that you become a liability to yourself and your own well-being.

And so you become highly dispensable. Married to the job, perhaps. Yes. Kerry, you have said in interviews that you really related to the character of Helen. Is there something we need to know about your secret life? Yes, I am a spy. Yes, you guessed it. No, I mean, I think just it was the idea, I think, particularly when you become a mother, that there are there are many parts of your personality. And when the maternal part sort of takes over everything, particularly when you have small children. But that doesn't mean that the other parts of your personality aren't still there. And I think you see, particularly mothers of small children who are maybe rather trapped at home in that bit where it's incredibly intense. And sometimes you see parts of that personality

sort of exploding out that that that need to be those other selves. So I said, that's how I identified with it. I feel like we've all got different faces, right? We've got one to our children, we've got one when we're at work, we've got one in a pub or something. This is just that, but taken to an extreme. Yeah, I understand the double life. I sometimes find it myself, if I'm honest. I get to do this and then I'm sitting down to watch Netflix for something. It's like, oh, she's been in the studio. What about you, Sarah? Do you ever feel that, I don't know, dual existence taking place in whatever it might be? Whether, I don't know, we all know you, of course, as Catherine Kay would in Happy Valley, for example, this tough enforcer. And then, I don't know, you go to the supermarket to get your shopping.

I'm very good at compartmentalising. Are you? Yes, I think I am. Have you always been? Yes, because I know that I have to, that there is a process of stepping away from a character once you've played them. The issue when you're playing them, it becomes a completely immersive experience. And so you've left the planet, really, for five months.

So I'm very, very good at sort of washing it off and returning to a normal existence. That's a really, must be an interesting transition. It's probably very interesting to live with. Well, I have this thought because when I used to travel a lot with work, you know, and you'd go to far-flung places for news, you know, for breaking news or whatever. And I always felt it took me a couple of days

to get back to myself again afterwards. I'm sure. And primarily most actors are working away from home. And we're working away from home for months at a time. Gone are the days we could actually try and get a train at 8 o'clock and come home again because schedules just don't permit it, really. So you live in a bubble, really.

It's also quite an infantilising bubble. Yes, it is. If you're on a film set, you have to ask to go to the toilet. Yes. Or somebody comes with you. And you're escorted. Yes. No, it's 10-4, 10-4.

And then you're taken on. Why can't you just go? Because everything is timed. Everything is timed. So you only have a certain amount of time. And if you need the toilet, then you're losing time. Or you may escape. God forbid you have a period.

You may have it. It's a really funny thing when you come back to life. You know, it's a funny thing where people open doors for you. They constantly, I don't know whether they think, actors, they're terrified you're going to get hurt and they can't cheat. So you suddenly, you know, you get home and you're like, oh, nobody's opening the door for me. I can go to the toilet by myself.

This is amazing. Climb the step, rather. That is quite something. for me. I can go to the toilet by myself. You can climb the step. That is quite something. I think that's quite a snapshot you give us though of what it must be like. Well remember we're all insured to work. We can't work without having this medical.

We go off and we get insured and then they keep you healthy. They attempt to keep you healthy. They wrap you in a cotton wool so to speak. They do. It's just so expensive to lose to lose a day's filming it's a huge insurance claim for them now when you get in that bubble and when you are in character let's say and you're able to stay there until you go back to your family lives or whatever um if you are hanging out sarah and kira i don't know after a day's

filming are you still mrs Mrs Reid and you're Helen? No, well I'm not, no. I can wash it off but while you're still on set. There's a slight misnomer here because it's interesting you can't wash it off because the work doesn't end when the fat cameras stop rolling. You're prepping for the following day. Are you?

It's a constant, you're on a treadmill. You're not hanging out afterwards because you're also naked you're going straight home. You're ruining the moment. You're not hanging out afterwards because you're also naked. You're going straight home. You're ruining the moment. You're sitting there with a script in the car, being driven home

and then you get home and Ciara's probably still sorting out children. Those days are gone for me. But it's a 24 hour a day job. I thought it was going to be fancy hotel bar two martinis and talking about how great is both words.

It's just the schedules are the schedules are crazy. You just you literally you climb on board and cling on. Yeah. So interesting. You talked Kira there briefly about you know the double life or being like a mum, which you are to two girls. And at a certain point, you wouldn't do another big film franchise like Pirates of the Caribbean because it would take you away from them. And you talk about some of the commitments, obviously, time commitments, et cetera, that there is even with the TV series.

I'm just wondering, was that difficult to make that decision? Because you were known for big blockbusters, obviously. Big blockbusters, yeah. I mean, I'd been actively looking for something shooting in London that was so that I could keep the kids at school in London and I didn't have to take them out of school. So, you know, I mean, a lot of... It's amazing how with the kids the age they are at the moment, I'm literally going, if it shoots in London, I didn't have to take them out of school. So, you know, I mean, a lot of, it's amazing how with the kids,

the age they are at the moment, I'm literally going, if it shoots in London, I'll do it. Directors, film producers, you heard it on Woman's Hour. Yeah, exactly. And it's really difficult to do. It's really, really difficult.

But, you know, you get to a point, and I'm not saying that we can't ever take the kids out, but I think post-pandemic, they really needed a chunk of time where they were totally in one place for us, you know. And so this was I cannot tell you what a dream job this was as far as working mother goes. It's also got the backdrop just to let people know. It's almost like like an homage to London. It's like, right. We see all these landmarks of London with Keira and Sarah kind of creeping around.

The beauty and the history and the majesty. It's another character, right? It is absolutely. And it was always designed to be. I feel like right from the first moment of the script, it was like, ooh, this is lovely. Yes, I mean, I think it's been designed exquisitely. Yeah. And it's interesting. You're looking for those roles. It's very specific.

Sarah, people have often talked about with you that you've had these incredible roles. We've been talking a lot this morning and yesterday about women of a certain age that they're now in the spotlight. But it hasn't always been like that. How would you describe the landscape when it comes to roles for older women? It's very interesting because I suppose we're a profession that you can't really parallel with any other profession. Most people of my age are probably, I'm 60, so they'd be six or seven years away from retirement.

Actors don't retire. Not at all. So we continue. And you can't turn off a creative brain. It's an unquiet mind, so it keeps going. So there is a quest to constantly try and find work so that you can really satisfy things. And it is harder. There's no doubt it's harder to find

really good roles as you get older because they're not written Because the part that some may not understand is it's obviously successful if I mention Happy Valley or Last Tango for example, so why are more not being made do you think?

Well I mean it's probably not a coincidence that those particular roles have been written by a woman, they're written by Sally Wainwright. But we're also, we're getting better at depicting women in a different light. We haven't been very good at it. And I have to say, in all fairness, we really have moved on in terms of how we depict women in drama, that they are now a propelling force within drama. So it's hugely better than it ever has been.

You've done some executive producing. I have. Well, I did on Happy Valley. Yes. How did you find that? Really, I was always doing it. They just gave me a title. Gave you a title. They just finally gave me a title. Yes. And that is being involved, deciding.

Well, you're all over it. Right. But it also helps in the way that we worked in a very particular way, I think, on that show. It wasn't necessarily kind of guerrilla filming, not at all, but it had a very, very close creative team. And it needed to have because of the nature of the piece. And very often we would only shoot a scene once. Really?

Yeah. It had an intimacy to it. We'd do one take before we'd do another take on another set-up on a scene. We could do eight set-ups on a scene, but we'd shoot it as quickly and as immediately as possible. And so you get that immediacy or that dynamism. Spontaneously. It becomes more authentic, far less staged in a way.

People are getting in touch about, you know, I was talking about women of a certain age. Somebody says they're having it printed on a T-shirt. You're not there yet, Ciara. You're turning 40 in March. Have I got that right? I'm turning 40 in March. I've read so much about you turning 40 in March. I'm not sure why this is such a big deal.

I didn't know it was a big deal either, but I mean, like, yeah, I'm feeling all right about it. You're a child. I'm a child for months, darling. You're a child. Really? Do you worry about roles in the future? No. Maybe I'm stupid. No, you know, I mean, I think the nice thing about turning 40 in March and having two little girls is that my life outside my work is very full, you know, and I have a side of my personality, like Sarah said, that I love what I do and I'm really excited by it. But I'm equally excited not to do it when I'm not doing it, you know.

And as far as like the roles go, no, I'm not. I'm not that worried. I don't ever know what I'm looking for. You know, I never- We know London. I know London. Yes, yes, please. Anything in London.

No, but you know, I mean, I'm always excited for the adventure. And it is interesting that the place that Netflix and other streaming channels have now, is that something that comes into your thinking when you're making professional choices? I mean, people basically have been glued to streaming services since the pandemic. I just tend to go where the great work is.

And how do you know it's going to be great work? Writing. It's the writing. I mean, Joe Barton's writing for this is just spectacular. It really is. It's beautiful. It's taut, witty. I was about to say, it's fast, it's audacious.

It really pulls you in. And it walks that line of it. It has a serious side and it has a silly side. And, you know, there are very few writers that can actually, it's a tightrope to try and make that work. And I think Joe absolutely walks that tightrope and yes he does beautifully is he going to walk it again I hope so fingers crossed fingers crossed we were just discussing that we do have a season two which is very exciting because actually do

you have a season we do yeah and it was really amazing because they said that we wouldn't know until January but they liked it so much when they saw it that they instantly said yes please we'll have another one so when does that start? We don't know yet. We don't know and we have no idea what he's going to do. We'll both pounce on him. I'll be in a supermarket somewhere. That's a call. In a lovely grey coat.

In a grey coat. Wheeling the supermarket trolley very slowly down. Very slowly. Down. Any other projects that we need to know about before I let either of you go? I've just finished Woman in Cabin 10 for Netflix. What is that? That will be coming out at some point.

It's a thriller set on a super yacht. What is this about the thrillers now, Ciara? I quite like them. They've got the bug. Yeah, you know what? It's the child in me. They feel like a proper movie or a proper, you know, it's like, I go, oh, yeah, I'm being spiey or I'm being thrillery.

And I get like the kid in me just goes, yay is fun how did the girls find it oh they're so uninterested yes classic that's healthy yeah very healthy oh I'm just very happy developing my own stuff at the moment I started a very small production company with my husband what's the name of the company it's called called VIA, VIA Pictures. And we started, we had a handful of projects, and I do mean a handful, that we really wanted to see if we could bring to screen. And so we're in the process of doing that.

And, you know, we do it round our kitchen table. We do it from home. And that was one of the attractions. And also the fact that we could finally work together. You know, I was kind of dipping a toe into a conversation yesterday with the Indian film director, Kiran Rao, who is divorced from her husband for a number of years, but they still work together on all the projects. And I think there is a rich conversation to be had about working with your partner and the challenges and the triumphs that that brings. Yeah, I mean, we're fine because we don't work in, our backgrounds are completely different.

So we work in completely different areas. I focus on one thing and he will focus on another. But the baby is still the production company. It is, but we seem to work in so far blissful harmony. What are you looking to do? I suppose I've always wanted to try and tell stories that haven't been told, in a sense.

Just look between the paving stones, look in the cracks. So, I think we have a few of those. Come back and talk to us about that. I certainly will. VIA, how do you spell that? V-I-A.

Okay, great, VIA. Well, Ciara Knightley, Sarah Lancashire, it's been a real pleasure. Thank you so much for coming in to visit us this morning on Woman's Hour. Black Doves is on Netflix from this Thursday, the 5th of December. Yes, I did get a preview.

And there is a season two to come at some point, as we have found out on Woman's Hour. Thanks so much. Thank you. Thank you. Lots of messages coming in. I'm so pleased to be a woman of a certain age. 56 today.

Happy birthday. I look and feel fabulous. Good for you. Age brings so much wisdom and confidence, enough to laugh at the misogynist spoutings by men. I'm fantastic. That's Cathy in Hebden Bridge. Cathy, thank you so much for getting in touch.

84844. If you would like to add your voice about how does it feel to be seen perhaps in a way that you haven't been seen before since all this conversations about women of a certain age. I'm Sarah Treleaven. And for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake.

No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.

Now I want to turn to a story out of the States but connected to Scotland as well. 73-year-old Jane Rubens from Edinburgh was enjoying a holiday in the States when she was hit by an SUV in St. Louis, Missouri. Jane suffered a serious brain injury, broken ribs and a fractured collarbone. And after multiple brain surgeries, she's now in an induced coma in a US hospital. Her daughter is Kat Rubens. Kat flew from Scotland to be by her mother's side. And she was initially relieved when she found out that her mother had taken out the highest level of insurance with AXA partners. That was until they said they would end her mother's

medical cover unless she was repatriated so flown back to a hospital in Scotland. That was against the medical advice of those caring for Jane in the US and also against her family's wishes. So at this incredibly difficult time and backed into a corner, Kat took her fight to social media and she joins me now. Hi Kat. Hi there. Good to have you with us and I know AXA then backed down so your mother is still in the States. My first question, how is Jane doing? Yeah, thanks for asking and thanks for having me on and so she's not actually in a medically induced coma anymore unfortunately she's just in her her own coma and she's largely unconscious but she has wiggled her toes a few times we've had a few hand squeezes

um but all the doctors are telling us that it will you know likely be around six months before they can say what the prognosis is for her and what the impact of her brain injury is going to be on her life and functioning. I am so sorry you are going through that it must be incredibly difficult you know your beloved mum and trying to figure out what's in her future and also yours but you came up against this issue of the insurance company not listening to you, wanting to repatriate your mother or else they would cancel the cover. Can you talk me through how you then decided to go on social media to try and make that happen? Because I'm just thinking you must have been in the fog of something so horrible that had just happened.

Yeah, definitely. I mean, so different neurologists and the neurosurgeon in America told us that it was too early for my mum to fly long haul at this stage of her brain injury. And we had told the insurer this and my mum's doctor had called and tried to tell the insurer it on the phone as well. And the advice really was from the neurosurgeon in America

who'd said it would be in her best interest to wait three to six months to fly once she'd had a piece of her skull reattached. And despite this, the insurer said no. And they said that we had to agree to repatriate my mum the next day or they would pull all cover for her medical expenses in America and the cost of flying her home. We couldn't have her here without having cover. Obviously, in America, we don't have the NHS and the treatment is expensive. So I said to the insurer, you've given us no choice, but we agree, but I'm putting on the record that this is against her medical best interests and the advice of the doctors here. I felt like I had no choice but to try to do something. I sort of went into fight or flight mode. I definitely picked fight and I kind of went into a bit of a frenzy and decided that the only thing I could do was to try and make this public.

And I wrote a thread on Twitter, what is now X, in the hope that it would get picked up and retweeted and thankfully it did and it got picked up by the media and that obviously put pressure on AXA and it was a really horrible thing to have to do you know my mum is really vulnerable I'm feeling really vulnerable right now I didn't want to put the most private details of her life on the internet and you know for everyone to see but I thought that was kind of my last chance in terms of trying to fight for her and to try and stop this happening when I'd had you know such clear medical advice from the neurology teams that what would be best

would be to wait before flying her. AXA have apologised their statement goes as follows that an AXA partner spokesperson said, we're sorry for the distress Miss Rubens and her family have experienced while making a claim and we sympathise with their situation. We've spoken with Miss Rubens' family and will remain in contact with them over the coming days to support them. Our medical team and Miss Rubens' treating doctors would agree the best course of action going forward.

So, first I'd be curious for your response to that but but also is there a plan for what happens next thanks well i mean obviously i'm glad that they have apologized and they are now treating it very seriously and you know it's hard not to be cynical but to think they've had to do this because there has been a media outcry and i'm so grateful to everyone who shared it because so many members of the public did and also got in touch with me telling me that the same thing, you know, had happened to them. Really? Yeah. But, you know, the impact of this has been really traumatic. We were already in, you know, our darkest days. I don't know if my mum's going to survive from this. I don't know what her life

will be like. And instead of being by her bedside, you know, holding her hand, reading to her, trying to do anything I can so that if she is regaining consciousness, she knows that I'm next to her. Instead, I had to spend 72 hours, you know, on social media, speaking to the media, trying to speak to my mom's MP, trying to speak to her MSP, then entering into these really high stakes negotiations with the insurer. And, you know, I didn't sleep for three and a half days. But more importantly, I wasn't able to be at the hospital with my mum. So, you know, I am glad that they have apologised. That's clearly the right thing to do. And they are now treating it seriously, and I hope appropriately. But it doesn't take away from what happened. And I don't want any

family to ever be in that situation with an insurer again. You know, this is why people take out travel insurance for the worst case scenario, which is exactly what happened to my mum. Is there a way around it, do you think? I mean, your mum had done everything that she could do. I mean, the way around it would be for insurers to treat families in this situation with humanity and to recognize that they are vulnerable. You know, when I had the call with AXA, when they'd given us less than 24 hours to agree to repatriate her, they wouldn't let me speak to a manager. They wouldn't let me speak to an underwriter. I asked for details of how they resolve disputes between the insured person and the insurer.

They said that they couldn't share that with me. You know, all they could do was give me a complaints process to follow that would likely take weeks for an outcome. So they need to have policies and procedures in place to let these kind of really serious cases be escalated up the chain. And also to not give families ultimatums like that where you're going to pull medical cover. I understand and you talk about trying to balance is the wrong word trying to do everything in those 72 hours obviously not sleep on the phone but really wanting to be by your mum your mum's bedside but not being able to do that. And of course, not knowing really whether she would be still with you within a number of days because the

injuries are severe. How would you describe the cost to you and your family emotionally taking a moment now? Yeah, I mean, I think I probably won't process that for weeks, if not months to come. And in the very immediate, the cost is the time with my mum. And, you know, the advice, as I've said, we've received from neurologists is that it's good for her to hear familiar voices. You know, my mum and I are really, really close, and I want her to know that I'm just by her side. So for me, that cost cannot be measured. That cost is something that is time and it's, you know, my opportunity to be with my mum and show her that I love her. And in terms of the

stress and the emotional toll, you know, that's also been immeasurable for me. That was hands down the worst day of my life it was actually almost worse than when I found out about the accident because I felt so helpless I felt out of control I felt it also just felt so unfair it felt like this shouldn't be happening we've done everything right we've given them the right information the doctors have called to try to give them the neurosurgery opinion and they're still not listening. You are a solicitor by trade just in your personal life, which perhaps helped in the organisation of information, perhaps if people were just wondering as well that you were able to,

I suppose, have that clarity of thought in a time that was so horrendous. I would like to know a little bit about your mum. Tell us about Jane, what she's like. You obviously have a close bond, as you've alluded to. Thanks so much for asking that. I mean, my mum is 73, but she's a very active 73-year-old. She's someone who loves people. She's got a better social life than me. She says that she's a technophile, but she's always who loves people she's got a better social life than me she says that she's a technophobe but she's always texting and whatsapping her friends you know whenever I'm around at her house in Edinburgh there's constantly people coming to see her through the door she helps out a lot of people and she sings in a choir she goes to exercise classes and you know

she's got well I thought she had a really bright future ahead of her and you know unfortunately eight years ago we lost my dad in an accident and she was kind of just starting to get her life back on track which is why what's happened has been so tragic and why I want to give her you know the best fighting chance of her still having quality of life going forwards. It's incredibly moving and I'm so sorry that you're going through that Kat. I mean the hand squeezes maybe they're giving you a little something to hold on to as well. Definitely I mean what is clear is that nothing is clear with my mum's prognosis. The doctors have told us there is a huge range that could range from very little improvement from where she's at now to actually her making quite a good recovery, still having impact.

And the key issue is that we don't yet know how much you'll be able to communicate and understand. And but the nurses and the doctors here are saying that, you know, she can hear us and we should treat it like that. And obviously, when I get the sense of her squeezing my hand, that at the moment feels like the best feeling in the world because it gives me hope. Well, we are hoping for the best outcome for your mum, Jane Rubins, in the coming months. Thank you, Kat Rubins, who flew to Scotland to be by Jane's side after that accident. Thank you for coming on Woman's Hour and also for speaking to us. We wish you all the best. Thank you so much.

Now, I want to turn to another treat for those of you who are fans of the award-winning singer-songwriter, Ray. This is a little taste of an interview with the woman. She has been named as one of the people of this year's BBC 100 Women list. That list celebrates 100 inspiring and influential women

from around the world every year. Here's Ray speaking to BBC 100 Women's Kirsty Grant about her huge success and the pressure she feels female artists are under. But first she talks about bringing her grandma on stage with her at the Brit Awards earlier this year when she won six including Songwriter of the Year.

The first time a woman has been given that particular accolade. For me, my grandma is everything to me. She moved from Ghana when I was born to take care of me while my parents worked full-time. So that's like my, you know, second mother in a way. She's just everything. So I think for how much love and sacrifice she poured into me into my childhood into all my sister's lives as well getting to like honor her in that way you know

was just yeah money can't buy that it was just yeah I'll never forget that night you've spoken a bit before about that and how you know you signed to Polydor in 2014 yeah Polydor Records and you spoke a bit about how you felt you kind of had to fit this certain mold or you felt they were pushing you in a direction what do you think they were trying to aim for with that yeah honestly it's hard to summarize seven years in like one question do you know what i mean because it was a wild roller coaster of a journey but you know um yeah i think the position I'm in now and I think having gone through everything I went through then you know I've learned so much about what I'll never ever

put myself through again do you know what I mean and I think integrity to your art and like loving it and believing in it is paramount and I can't say there's any worse feeling than breaking yourself to sell a record that disgusts you that sucks do you know what I mean and when it gets to that the worst of times I wish that I'm not an artist that's horrible feeling so you've released songs that you've listened to and be like I don't like it like that's an understatement yeah really yeah yeah I'm out selling the thing doing interviews like all right tell us about your new song. I'm out selling the thing, doing interviews like, alright, tell us about your new song. And I'm like, yes, yeah, la la la. And you're there like, I hate this.

This is horrible. So it must feel amazing, your album that came out this year, My 21st Century Blues, not often does a debut album go to number two on the charts. That must have felt really good when it's music that you love. Oh yeah, it was incredible. And I think also for me having that validation of my album being something like, you know, the album of the awards at the Brit was so mind blowing

to me while I was just bawling my eyes out was cause, you know, it was just a validation of, you know, this album does matter to some people, you know, and it was just like, wow. And that's all I ever really wanted, to make albums that some people care about. In your recent song Environmental Anxiety, you touch on a lot of topics. You speak about climate change, British politics, social media, drug use. Are these all things that are worrying you? What worries you the most at the moment? These are all things that I think I'm worried about,

I think a lot of us are worried about. And they're also things that are so overwhelmingly huge that no one person can really make a difference. It has to come from people with actually the power to make these kind of changes, you know? Are you just singing out of frustration then, would you say? Or do you have, like, an aim to change anything by writing about them? Well, I think music is that way that you can express you know feelings and worries and anxieties and in in a way that's kind of how I use my voice if I have one you know I mean so

some of your lyrics from environmental anxiety also little girls aren't safe at home she's scrolling up and down her phone she hates her life she hates herself and she's 12 years old yeah where did those lyrics come from I'm the older sister of three sisters so I my you know my sisters are my little girls and I'm so proud of them and very protective of them do I mean and I think you can just see you know I think for our generation or whatever we had like Facebook and that stuff was introduced when we was, I was in year seven, year eight. So I was like 11, 12. It's something that was new and something that was like, whoa, what's this? You know what I mean? I remember my baby sister was playing the iPad game, this game. She was like, she couldn't even talk. And she was, she was slaying the thing down. You know, it really worries me obviously for the future of

how addictive these things are for the future generation. How they're going to be able to put them down and go for a walk in the trees and like find balance and not needing to find validation from how many messages you have or how many likes you have. Which for someone like me, who, this is, I didn't grow up with this in my childhood, do you know what I mean? I really struggle with that thing. I don't even have, I don't even allow myself access to my social media accounts, you know?

One of your lyrics also is about editing photos basically. Is that why you stopped using your social media or was it just general pressures? I think it's the whole thing. I don't think it's good for anyone to be on there for a long period of time. I think you start to compare yourself, resent yourself, analyse yourself, pick yourself apart. And that's just not a nice feeling. Yeah, but I think there's a lot of us going on to film yourself for a story or a selfie video or whatever. That we're all like, oh, I prefer to put a filter on my face and just look at what my face looks like.

And that's just the world we live in now, do you know what I mean? And that's, I think a lot of us have even become a bit numb to the fact that we're just doing that. So the theme of this year's BBC 100 Women is resilience. If you have a look back at your career and your life, what do you think you've learned about resilience over the course of your career or what you know it's difficult times in your life where you've you've had to just I think overcomes that is the key word when pursuing a

career in music you just have to have bags of it. Yeah, I think, you know, also allowing yourself to feel, mourn, be upset, feel how you feel, but then bounce back, you know. There's a lot of times you could find yourself being like, well, after this experience or this or that, I'm going to give up, but it's about just picking yourself back up and going for it, you know. But yeah, I think, yeah, I think artists have to have, especially women, I think you have to have a lot of that. Yeah, I'm smiling because it's just like, you know, yeah, you have to be tough and get on with it, you know. And I think often for women as well, because I think the standard of how you have to carry yourself and be is so

different for women and men so I think on top of that resilience being polite being kind and being a good person even if you're going through it you know finding it within yourself to put what you're going through there and just you know get on with it. Do you feel like you've had to kind of prove yourself more as a woman then in the industry and or just be held to a higher standard of, like, emotion? Yeah, I mean, there's definitely a double standard, I'd say. If a guy was to do something, you know, they're having a bad day and they push the paparazzi back or whatever,

it'd be like, you know, oh, he was having a hard day. Do you know what I mean? Does that, like, stop you sometimes from doing or saying things and you're like oh girl it might go viral I might you know be I honestly I don't I'm really at such a I'm at a place where it's like I've achieved some insane things but I'm still like relatively new what undiscovered in terms of like the world do you know what I mean so where it's like these these artists and female artists who are put on these huge huge pedestals scares the living daylights out of me honestly like I actually am like there are times where you're like do you want to be I still have big

dreams but it's like do I even want to it's really scary I think I think it's actually quite scary so it puts you off kind of reaching those levels of... Oh, yeah. It's terrifying. What is it you're scared of, then? Just when that level of judgement just, like, becomes, like, so micro and you just have to always be this perfect thing or this well-spoken, polite, good... Do you know what I mean? All the time, which no human is. That's just not real life, do you know what I mean?

Just being judged on that scale terrifies me. That was, of course, Ray. And you can listen to the full interview that's on the Woman's Hour podcast feed on BBC Sounds. Ray is one of the BBC's 100 women list this year. Do join me tomorrow when I'll be joined by the South African soprano, Pumetza Machikiza. She'll be performing and discussing her experience

of coming to terms with her sexuality while growing up as a seven-day Adventist. Looking forward to that. Also, I'll be speaking to the author Josie Lloyd about her latest creation. This is a fictional relative of the real-life cookery writer Mrs Beaton, who, when she's not whipping up a batch of biscuits, runs a domestic agency and catches criminals. It's a cosy crime, is that genre.

So I'm looking forward to that as well. Right, let's get back to some of your comments. Many have been coming in about women of a certain age. Hi, Nuala. Women of a certain age. Sure, it's the best time. I'm going to, I would put a bet this woman is Irish by that turn of phrase.

The children are raised, your confidence is high because of what you've achieved in many areas of your life. And basically you don't care about what others think so much. I think it's an absolutely brilliant time. And that is Mary. Here's another. I have a male boss and he is the most appropriate person you could ever hope to meet. There are

good ones out there, so don't blame all men. Fairly said. Middle class women of a certain age. In fact, I agree as this accurately describes women with the strength of mind and confidence to speak up in today's mixed up world. That is Patricia. Another one. I think middle age, middle class women of a certain age need to go on strike like the women did in Iceland. I think then everyone would realise how fundamental they are to the running of the country. That's Carrie in Darlington.

Here's another. I am shouting at the radio. I just turned 60. I totally disagree with the reframing of how men behaved in the 70s and 80s. I had the time of my life loving men and the natural,

acceptable banter of that era. My man was such a role model. My father was a role model. He adored women. She thinks the accusations at the moment are so crazy. I will speak to you tomorrow. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. Hi, I'm Ronald Young Jr. And I'm here to introduce myself to all of you who love listening to podcasts in the UK. Welcome to my world on the other side of the pond.

I'm the host of Pop Culture Debate Club, the show that debates the important issues of our time. Is West Wing better than Veep? Does an iPhone beat an Android? Such questions we battle over on Pop Culture Debate Club with comedians and pop culture commentators. We'd love to welcome you all too. It's a competition, but a really fun one. You can find us on BBC sounds and any other podcast provider. You'd be so welcome to join us. I'm Sarah. And for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who's faking pregnancies.

I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con,

Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.