Woman's Hour - Kelly Macdonald, Ovarian cancer vaccine breakthrough, Violence against women in Turkey

Episode Date: October 21, 2024

It’s nearly thirty years since Kelly Macdonald made her acting debut as the sharp-witted 15 year old schoolgirl Diane in the classic film Trainspotting. Since then, the award winning actress has starred in critically acclaimed films like No Country for Old Men, Gosford Park, as well as Harry Potter franchise, and voiced the fearless Princess Merida in Pixar’s Brave. Now, she’s taking on a new role in the vampire comedy thriller, The Radleys.Scientists at the University of Oxford are creating OvarianVax, a vaccine which teaches the immune system to recognise and attack the earliest stages of ovarian cancer. The hope is that the jab could be given to women preventatively on the NHS with the aim of eliminating the disease. We talk to Professor Ahmed Ahmed from the university of Oxford, who is leading the research into the jab, and Cary Wakefield CEO of Ovarian Cancer Action, to find out when exactly we might see this becoming available.Hundreds of women have recently been protesting in Turkish cities after the killing of two young women in Istanbul – followed by protests every day for a week across the country, notably on university campuses. Recently the "We Will Stop Femicide Platform" reported that in Turkey, 34 women were murdered by men and 20 more died under suspicious circumstances in September alone. We hear from Elif Shafak - award-winning British-Turkish novelist and storyteller, and Times Turkey Correspondent Hannah Lucinda Smith.Presenter: Nuala McGovern Producer: Laura Northedge

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2. And of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme. Peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, this is Nuala McGovern and you're listening to the Woman's Hour podcast. Hello and welcome. Kelly MacDonald in a moment. Kelly has a new film out about vampires set in a small village in Yorkshire. It's an absolute hoot. We're going to speak to Kelly shortly. Also, almost upon us is clock change. We go back an hour on Sunday at 2am

and I saw this morning that scientists are launching a study to better understand how the annual switch back to wintertime affects people's wellbeing and time perception. It's really interesting stuff. But I was just wondering how you're finding these dark mornings and dark evenings.

There was a list in one of the papers that I was looking at that said, what Britons do to brighten up their days and lift their spirits. Here's number one, listening to nostalgic music. Number two, cleaning and tidying. The nostalgic music, that was 32%. Cleaning and tidying, 22%. Number three, singing in the car, 21%. And so it goes on, everything from talking to your dog

to, you know, calling up an old friend. I want to know what you do to bring a little bit of sunshine to what is for money this morning, a grey morning. You can text the programme 84844. Social media, we're at BBC Woman's Hour or you can email us through our website. For a WhatsApp message or a voice note, the number is 03700 100 444.

Also, good news today. There is new research underway in the UK for a vaccine for ovarian cancer. So we want to hear all about that from the professor who's leading the way, that interview coming up. We'll also hear from Elif Shafak. She is the British-Turkish author.

And we're going to speak to her about the anger and the protests that have been taking place in Turkey's cities following the deaths of several women. That is all coming up. But let me begin. It is hard to believe it's nearly 30 years since Kelly MacDonald made her acting debut as the sharp-witted 15-year-old schoolgirl Diane. That was, of course, in Trainspotting. But since then, how many roles?

The award-winning actress has starred in the critically acclaimed films like No Country for Old Men, Gosford Park, as well as the Harry Potter franchise. She's voiced the fearless Princess Merida in Pixar's Brave. She's also captivated TV audiences in the US crime drama series Boardwalk Empire. She was nominated for an Emmy for that. Also, of course, played the guest lead in the last series of the huge popular Line of Duty. But now she is taking on a new role. This is a vampire comedy and it's called The Radleys, which I was lucky enough to watch yesterday. It's on Sky Cinema and in select cinemas as well.

Great to have you with us, Kelly. Welcome this morning. Vampires, were you interested in them before this film? I was very interested in them. Actually, when I was Diane from Trainspotting's sort of age, I was very like a lot of teenage girls, I think. I was sort of vaguely obsessed. You know, I was thinking about this

and I actually grew up in Dublin, not far from the house of Bram Stoker, let me tell you. So the Irish author, which of course then spawned all these vampires with his original Dracula in so many guises. This one, the latest one. But what about that with teenage girls?

Because when we're a teenage girl, we're having like this burgeoning relationship with blood, to put it quite frankly, as periods come along. I was wondering, like, what is that? Are we kind of fascinated with it or trying to understand it more as we kind of get into vampire literature or films? I think it is this sort of secret thing that girls own when they're teenagers and it's the first we know about adult relationships in a way it's the first sort of adult thing that happens. And I definitely think there's a correlation there. Yeah.

It's like secret and sort of vaguely sexual. And yeah. Which we'll get into some of what the vampire cravings can be. But you are playing this woman, Helen, in a fabulous house, I have to say, in Yorkshire with beautiful outfits. Your wife to Peter, that's Damien Lewis. You're also a mother to two teenagers, that's Rowan and Clara.

And on the surface, it's all about polite garden parties, the book clubs, the parents' evenings, but it's no ordinary family. I want to play a little clip. Clara. Clara. Clara, my little love, listen to me. When you went vegan, it had an effect on you.

It made you particularly vulnerable to certain cravings. Kate, all that's happened tonight is... You... You acted like what you are. What am I, Mum? You're a vampire. We all are. So brilliant.

There is an incident which I'm not going to speak about, from which I was totally hooked on the film. So the parents have been hiding it from their teenage children. They have to tell them. And I suppose really at the heart of it is this family trying not to give in to their urges. Your husband's brother appears, who's also played by Damien Lewis. But the urges, do you think they're meant to represent addictions? I mean, I was thinking, is it alcohol? Is it sex? Like what's its equivalent, if you know what I mean, of this day-to-day setting of a vampire family? I think it sort of can be whatever anybody wants it to be.

But I know Matt Haig sort of had addiction issues who wrote the novel. And so, I mean, the first thing you think of is the correlation, I'm using that word again, between alcoholism and their sort of struggles in the film. Yes, the alcohol definitely, but then there is sexual tension going through the film as well.

So it's kind of giving into that urges as well, or maybe the beauty of the flesh. So Marie-Larisse, what was it like to film it? It was honestly so much fun. We filmed, I mean, I know they shot in Yorkshire because Whitby is, you know, the Bram Stoker Whitby thing is a bit of a link as well. And so it's set in Yorkshire, but we filmed a lot in a house in London. And it was just, it was, it was a family home.

It was suburbia and we all sort of took our sort of positions in the home really easily. You know, we all had rooms that we sat in between takes and the kids, you know, we had snacks in our room that the kids would steal and it was all very familial and it was a good time and it was the summer, which always helps I think as well. I'm just thinking you should have really had the Halloween snacks shouldn't you? But anyway, you didn't have vampire teeth though, I heard you were a bit put out about that.

I was very juvenile about it because like my sort of younger self was a little bit obsessed with, it was Bram Stoker, the Francis Ford Coppola film Dracula that I I sort of became a bit enamored of Gary Oldman in that film and um yeah so I the thought of doing a vampire film really um I don't know it sort of it just took me back and then when I found out that I was the only one not getting the sort of accoutrements I was quite childish about it Maybe somebody, you know, will get you a pair for Halloween who knows

but you do talk about Matt Haig there writing the novel The Radleys and I saw a comment that you made in one paper about your son saying you were desperate for them to get into reading. Would something like this appeal? And I don't know. They're funny. My kids are just interested in different things.

Books were my state and I grew up, you know, kind of in the local library. My mum was in the library or in Oxfam at the sort of book section. And I don't know, maybe I'm failing slightly with my kids, but we do have other interests that, you know. I don't think, yeah, I mean, failing, I think you probably say that tongue in cheek, I hope, but it's something that people, they do talk about. And I was even looking at some of the figures, you know,

that has gone down 4% reading in certain children's groups from last year. I think it's a 26% decrease from 2005. So maybe it's something we could get into with our audiences as well. 8-4, 8-4-4. It's like trying to get kids to read in the way that we have, but

they're growing up in a very different world, of course. I'm curious about this role or other roles. You don't watch your work back, I heard. Is that true? I mean, not always. I mean, it's been a longish career at this point. Yes.

I have watched the majority, I have to say. But if I happen to miss a premiere, although there's less of those these days as well, it's sort of changed. But yeah, if I had missed a premiere, then I would find it, I would really struggle to sort of, in my own time, take myself to the cinema to watch. Or, yeah, or watch a screener that I've been sent.

Yeah, there's always different things I'd rather watch is this just time or is it the act of watching yourself back it's absolutely the act of watching myself I really the larger the ensemble cast the better it is for me you know if it's not just sorry if if if if I'm on screen for a minute and then someone else is there, then it's a bit of a relief. How do you improve your acting? I'm wondering if you don't watch back as much. Now, obviously, you're a fantastic actor and the roles keep coming in such a different variety as well. But maybe that's not how actors improve. I don't know.

No, hopefully practice makes perfect or sort of practice makes better. I don't know. But I have worked with actors that like to watch playback, like to sort of see themselves immediate, like while you're shooting a scene and I I've just not ever been able to do that. I'll kind of avert my eyes if they're doing that or stick my fingers in my ears if I hear my voice.

I find it quite unhelpful. I'm sort of wholly reliant on the director sort of guiding me, really. It's really interesting. We had Isabelle Hubert, the French actress, on last week and she never rehearses before. She reads the script and she goes in and does it. So I'm just fascinated on how you do it when we pull back the screen. I think for me, I'll just not turn up at all, you know.

Another way to approach it. I was looking through your impressive career catalogue, of course, shooting to fame 28 years ago in Train Spotting. I don't know if you're tired talking about Train Spotting, are you? No. OK, for those who need a quick reminder, you played Diane, 15-year-old schoolgirl who met Ewan McGregor's character that was Renton in a nightclub.

They sleep together. The next morning, Renton realises her age when he sees her in her school uniform and meets her parents. Actually, we watched some of that scene yesterday. What was the reaction to that scene at the time from your perspective? I was just thinking about, would that happen now? Would it be viewed completely differently? I should tell people there was a sex scene with full nudity as well, just to give them the full picture.

And also, I wasn't 15. No, you were not. You were 19. You were playing a 15-year-old. I mean, yeah, but I was very, it was still like a big, it was a big deal. And I was very much in denial about the scene happening. You know, they were Danny Boy Boyle and Andrew Macdonald from when I got the part, they talked about it a lot so that it wasn't a shock on the day. But yeah, it's an interesting question though.

Would it, it would be perceived entirely differently, I think, today. Yeah, yeah. I mean, it had shock factor back then. For those that weren't watching it at that age, that perhaps coming to it now with some of our younger listeners.

Do you think that huge success being catapulted, you were unknown beforehand, I heard it was a flyer that you got in a bar and then just went to audition on a whim. Do you think how that role affected the rest of your career? I think it opened the door.

I don't know if I was catapulted. It felt very, you know, I went back to work in the pub. Oh, did you? Yeah, I mean, for a short while. And it was a bit odd, to be fair, because they had a huge advertising campaign. I think it was kind of the first of its kind. And the posters were everywhere. And it's sort of iconic in itself, that campaign.

And so it did get a bit odd working in a bar when there was posters all over, certainly all over Glasgow. Yeah. Sorry, what was, where was I going with that? I was just wondering how much it impacted. And you said it wasn't really catapulting, that it was maybe a more gradual process. It was a very gradual process. And I've seen people catapulted, you know, since my day.

And I am just so glad that I live in a different time and that there wasn't social media. Brutal, I think. So I was very, very much under the radar. You live in Glasgow. You did live in New York for Boardwalk Empire for a number of years, yeah?

And, you know, I actually think there's a bit of similarity between those two cities, which some people may disagree with. But I'm wondering what it's like

being in Glasgow. I mean, looking at you, you actually haven't changed much since Trainspotting at all. So I imagine you're immediately recognisable. Do people bother you in Glasgow? Just thinking of that whole social media that we're in a different age now,

a different age for celebrities? No, I mean, I live in a very, I'm very, I don't know. It's like a village, really. And so I think it's not big news if I'm in the supermarket or anything. And also New York, living in New York was, I mean, New York, Manhattan certainly is just sort of lots of villages, it feels like. Lots of neighbourhoods. And so I was very much part of my little neighbourhood there as well.

Yeah, I think the people in Glasgow and in New York are quite chatty, you know, opinionated up front. I think I kind of get that feel when I walked around both cities. But is it hard to navigate the industry of Hollywood or whatever it might be, some of those big roles that you have done in the States when you're living in Glasgow? No, I don't really think about it too much. And I don't think it is as big a, you know, London isn't as big a pull in many industries now, I think. I think a lot of people used to finish university or finish their studies and then the goal was to move down south. And I think that's, you know, whether it's technology or I don't know the reason really, but I don't think it's totally um I don't think it's relevant really where I live at this point so interesting so you can really do the um remote working working from home in a way that maybe we would never have

thought of uh almost 30 years ago when train spotting was out. Are you dressing up for Halloween? Will you be a vampire? I, this is, it's to be discussed. I've got costumes ready for my kids. And they're, so they're talking about it, but I think they're kind of getting to that age where they kind of don't want me around. So I can ask for something for the front door, for answering the door, but I don't think I'll be going out trick-or-treating.

Maybe. You might have a colleague, co-worker that might lend you a pair of fangs. I could get a makeup artist, couldn't I? You could. Yeah. I think... Halloween, my friends, they're a makeup artist.

I think you should have somebody on speed dial after the Radleys. Thank you so much for speaking to us. That is Kelly MacDonald. The Radleys. Thank you so much for speaking to us. That is Kelly MacDonald. The Radleys is on Sky Cinema and in select cinemas. I loved it. Perfect.

I actually bumped into, I came out from watching it in my house and there was a guy going by me. He must have been going to a Halloween party and he had fake blood all over him

with his long black hair. I thought it was getting ready to see another few vampires in the next week or so. Kelly, thanks so much for speaking to us. Now, I want to turn to the number of people with chronic pain in England.

It is set to rise by 1.9 million by 2040. That's according to new analysis of research by the Health Foundation, Charity and Think Tank. So that would be a rise from 5.345 million in 2019 to 7.247 million by 2040. Now, women will bear the brunt of the increase as consistent evidence shows they're already on average about 50% more likely than men to develop persistent pain. We've two guests to discuss this, Dr. Barbara Phipps, who is a GP, also teaches at Edinburgh University's MSc programme on pain, and Anne Raymond, who is an economist with the Health Foundation, who did some of this analysis. Welcome to Woman's Hour. Let me begin with you, Anne. How do you define chronic pain? And welcome. Thank you. So we define chronic pain using prescription data. So, basically, if somebody

has had four or more painkillers prescribed in a given year, that is how we define chronic pain in our analysis. But actually, I think there is a problem with how it is defined as well. It's not consistent. A lot of evidence has actually asked people, so it's based on self-reported data. So, that might show a slightly different picture, but based on this analysis, that is using prescriptions data. Are there certain conditions which are more likely to cause chronic pain? So I think based on the survey evidence, in our data, we're not able to see why the painkillers were prescribed, but again, when we ask people about, in separate research that has asked people about chronic pain, it's mostly musculoskeletal conditions.

So things like different kinds of arthritis, osteoarthritis, rheumatoid arthritis, back pain or osteoporosis. So a lot of them have been linked to chronic pain. That figure 1.9 million, which they expect to be the rise by 2040. Do we know why? So a lot of it is actually because the population of England is getting older. And like I said, if chronic pain is related to musculoskeletal conditions in a lot of instances, we would expect the likelihood of developing those conditions to increase with age. But I think what we also find is that that increase is not going to be, that is the England number, but that's going to be very different across the country.

And the instances of chronic pain is actually going to increase much faster in poorer areas than richer areas, where it is also going to affect significant numbers of working age people. So it's not just something that people in older ages would face. Let me turn to you, Barbara. I mentioned women suffering from chronic pain more frequently than men. Any insight into why that might be? Yes, I think it's we don't know the full story behind why that is the case. I think there are various things that we do know.

So we know that hormones will play a part. So for example, you know, menstrual pain. Also, we know that if you're going through the menopause, you're twice as likely to experience long term pain. So definitely hormones. And there are also some conditions that only women will suffer from. So, you know, endometriosis, for example. There's also some thought that certain personality traits are more likely to contribute to the pain experience. Oh, hang on now, let's get into that. What do you mean? So if you are very empathetic, if you are a caring person, if you're a perfectionist, there's some suggestion that you're more likely to develop long-term pain. And we know that those caring roles often fall

to women. And so that is possibly a factor as well. Gosh, that's so interesting. Has there been, or what sort of research perhaps I should ask Barbara, has there been into this area when it comes to women? Because we've often on Women's Hour previously looked at the struggles women have to be taken seriously about pain that they're experiencing. Yeah. So that's a really good question. And actually, historically, research into all sorts of medical problems has been very much based on a Western sort of white man. So ethnic minorities and women have been often excluded from research in the past. So there is an opportunity here for more research to be done on women. And we know that women present often more differently with certain conditions than men. So there has to be research specifically done on women and ethnic minorities. And so, for example, if we look at

ADHD, or if we look at, you know, myocardial infarction or heart attacks, women often present differently. And so the norms are based around how men would present and we have to sort of change that narrative. Do you see that narrative changing at all? Yeah I think it is changing. Things in medicine tend to change very very slowly it's a little bit like wading through treacle so we we do know this information but it's about getting it into medical schools and it's also about culturally changing the way we perceive women and how they present medically because that they often are dismissed we know there's a lot of really good evidence out

there to say that if women present with pain they're less likely to be you know taken seriously to be prescribed medications to their they're less likely to be seen as quickly as men um in accident emergency for example really that that's another interesting area to look at. Anne, let me come back to you. I mean, do you see a shift at all in the time that you are doing research? Again, I think what we've understood from this research is just that there is, like Barbara mentioned,

there are all of these different nuances in terms of how chronic pain is measured. And I think asking people in surveys about how they identify chronic pain is, you know, you need all of these different data sources to be able to give like a more complete picture about how chronic pain is measured. But we definitely there is still a lot to be understood and yeah even to unpick why we have these instances of greater chronic pain in women is something that we need to delve into further. Back to you Barbara I mean if somebody if a woman is experiencing chronic pain what do you think is the pathway to get the best help to be heard? I think it's really important

to find a practitioner that you have a good relationship with. And ultimately, that person is the expert in their own pain. So all pain is real. And that person is the expert in their own pain. Everything that's involved in that person's life is relevant to their pain experience. So finding a clinician that they have a good relationship and it's interesting to know that having a good trusting relationship with your clinician in itself can produce better health outcomes so it can improve pain it can improve blood pressure for example it can improve recovery

from surgery so just having that really helpful relationship so finding a clinician that you can trust. I think we need to understand what pain is and what drives pain. So pain is essentially created by the brain when it feels or perceives there to be some sort of threat to our health and well-being. And historically, we have always considered that that has to be something structural within your body. But actually, that can be any threat to your health and well-being. So it could be poor sleep. It could be that you've had a long-term poor diet. It could be that you've got long-term stressors.

So actually, we need to consider the whole person. It's not just about x-rays and tests. It's about everything that's going on in that person's life because everything will be relevant to their pain experience. Really interesting stuff. I think we will pick up on as well, Dr. Barbara Phipps, who is a GP who teaches at Edinburgh University's MSc programme on pain and Anne Raymond, also an economist with the Health Foundation. Thank you both so much. I want to read some of the messages coming in. We're talking about this grey morning.

What are you doing to brighten your spirits? Here's Susan. What I do to lift the spirits on a miserable Monday morning. Volunteer at Music for the Memory. Everyone leaves with a smile on their face. After a great singing session, it lifts the spirits. Yeah, a bit of singing on a Monday morning. Why not?

The one thing that makes me smile during winter. This is from Penny, who's in Somerset. I took up playing the clarinet after reaching 50. I buy books that I can play along with even for five or 10 minutes on work days. And it puts a step in my stride and a smile on my face. It's never too late to learn a new skill. And it's so fulfilling. Right. So we've got lots of music going on. Let me see. It is Jamecia. I keep my spirits up by working as a cat sitter on the side. It gets me out of the house early in the morning and I love interacting with my furry clients. I can't be depressed when I'm cuddling a warm purring cat. And let me see one more. Go for a duck. So I guess that's a little jump in In the sea. That's Bronwyn.

A duck is another word for bathe. I see you learn something new on Woman's Hour every day. Shall we talk about vampires again after having Kelly on? What is it about vampires? I'm 64 and ever since I was a teenager, I found the whole concept fascinating. Any vampire film, book, never mind Twilight and Interview with a Vampire. I used to watch Friday night scare films with Christopher Lee and fell in love with all the fantasy of it.

Used to take a gold cross to bed at one stage. Loved scaring myself to death. Thank you, Bram Stoker. 84844 if you want to get in touch. Now, I want to tell you about something that I know is going to be of interest to many of you. On Wednesday, we're having a phone-in programme on special educational needs and disabilities.

We want to discuss SEND provision in educational settings with a focus on what is working. So if you're the mum of a child with SEND, what is it in your nursery or school that is working for you and your child? We want to hear examples of what you think is best practice, good ideas that could be scaled up, maybe rolled out elsewhere in other local authorities. Share your experiences. I want to hear the send best practice. What is working? It's a phone in, it's on Women's Hour, it's on Wednesday. You can text 84844 on social media at BBC Women's Hour or email us through our website in advance. I'm Sarah Trelevan, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered.

There was somebody out there who's faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in.

Available now. Off the program. To Turkey. Hundreds of women have recently been protesting in Turkish cities after the brutal killing of two young women in Istanbul. It was followed by protests every day for a week across the country, notably on university campuses. The We Will Stop Femicide platform reported in Turkey, 34 women were murdered by men and 20 more died under suspicious circumstances in September.

According to the Monument Countress, this is a digital platform that updates the unofficial numbers of women killed by men in the country. 297 women have been killed in 2024 so far. The total was 416 last year. Now, to give you context, the population of Turkey is around 87 million. In the UK, which is a population of about 67 million, at least 100 UK women were killed by men last year.

Those figures, according to the campaign Counting Dead Women. I'm joined by two guests. Alif Shafak, the award-winning British-Turkish novelist and storyteller.

She's also a women's rights advocate with a PhD in political science. You're very welcome back to the programme, Alif. Thank you so much for having me. And we also have The Times Turkey correspondent, Hanna Lucinda Smith, with us from Istanbul this morning. Good morning, Hanna. Good morning. Now, I do want to let people know there may be graphic details in this discussion.

But let me begin with you, Hannah. And forgive me, Hannah or Hannah Lucinda? Hannah, just Hannah. Okay, great. Let us talk a little about the point we have reached. I mentioned briefly that there's been some killings that have really reached the headlines and began to be a catalyst for some of these protests. Yeah, but I mean, we should say that these protests have been going on for a long time

and the situation in Turkey has not been good for a long time. I don't think it's ever been great. This is a patriarchal country. I think it's really interesting when you really look into the details of this huge number of killings of women. There's often a pattern there, which is that the women are being murdered by their partners or by their ex-partners. Often it's women who are trying to divorce their husbands

or they're trying to leave their partners. Very often what happens is that ex-partner will kill the woman and then commit suicide themselves. So, yeah, it has never been good. But certainly in the past few years, there have been things coming from the government here in Turkey, which, of course, is an Islamist government under President Erdogan. He has ruled the country for more than two decades now and has been trying to really reimplement conservative Islamic values in the society. In 2021, President

Erdogan pulled Turkey out of the Istanbul Convention. That's a Council of Europe convention. It is designed to protect women's rights in obliging signatories to do things like providing rape crisis centres, obliging the police in signatory countries to approach victims of domestic violence and sexual violence in a certain way. And President Erdogan pulled Turkey out of that convention because of clauses around what gender means. He said that that's a threat to the traditional family. And actually, that's something that we hear not just in Turkey, but also in populist and chauvinist regimes across Eastern Europe, places also like Hungary, like Poland, like Russia. So I think, you know, clearly this is an issue in Turkey,

which both comes from the culture, also economic factors possibly playing a part as well. The economy here is going very, very badly. But, you know, part of also, I think of this bigger wave across Eastern Europe. And let me bring you in a leaf here

because President Erdogan, he has promised to harden the country's criminal law. He's promised to toughen up the sentence enforcement system and stop early releases, for example. Do you have faith in his words? Well, as Hannah said, there's a background to all of this, and this has been going on for so many years. And I think we need to take into consideration how the country has been experiencing a democratic backsliding, because I think that's also the core of the problem. When countries lose their democracy and appreciation of diversity and rule of law and the institutions are broken and countries begin to slide backwards,

I think the very first rights that are taken away will be women's rights. So in that regard, what Turkey is going through is an important story for the whole world. And Hannah, coming back to you, you talk about the background as does Alif, but what is it exactly of late that has been the specific cases that perhaps has put it on the front burner for a lot of women? Yeah, well, there's been three murders in particular in the past few weeks. One was a double murder carried out by a 19-year-old against two of his ex-girlfriends, Iqbal Uzuner and Aishanur Halil, both of them 19 years old. He murdered them in a really horrific way. And also there was a lot of discussion on Discord,

a social media site, around what he'd done. There was a kind of almost glorification of it. I think, you know, sort of almost equivalent to, you know, the glorification that we see around incels, you know, kind of incel culture in the US. And then also there was the murder of Sheda Yilmaz, who was a 26-year-old policewoman, again murdered by a 19-year-old. He was a multiple convicted criminal, but was not in prison, including violent offenses. And he actually took the gun from another police officer and shot Sheda Yilmaz.

So three murders that have really, really shaken Turkey. But it is part of this bigger pattern. We're talking a woman killed every day here in Turkey. That's an absolutely horrendous number. Elif, let me turn back to you. I mean, some of these took place in Istanbul. The mayor of Istanbul is Ekrem Emel Malyu. Some people have positioned him,

particularly opposition supporters and analysts, as a possible challenger to Erdogan's presidency. Some say that, you know, they might change the rules on exactly how long somebody is president

in response to that. But do you feel that there could be a shift? I mean, Hannah has outlined that background of where it has been with Erdogan. Do these protests, I suppose, mean anything really to the potential future government? I think the protests are very important and very meaningful.

And we also need to remember that Turkey has a very long and deeply rooted tradition or women's movement, a feminist movement that has grown over the years. And some of what's happening is almost like a backlash, you know, to the progressive steps that were taken years ago. This is a country that ratified, Turkey was the first country to sign and ratify the Istanbul Convention in 2011. Imagine how we have been sliding backwards. But my point is, this is a very complex country. It's a very multi-layered country. And the civil society, maybe that's the irony, is far ahead of its government. So in Turkey, you will find many women, youth, particularly students, but also minorities,

who are incredibly resilient and they want proper gender equality. Do you see, for example, Hannah mentioned the Istanbul Convention that Turkey withdrew from in 2021, which is that international treaty to prevent and combat violence against women. Could you see that being reinstated in the current climate? In the current climate, I cannot see that happening. But one day I hope it will be brought back. This is one of this is the most important international treaty to protect victims of gender violence, also domestic violence, primarily women, but also children, also LGBTQ plus minorities, all of which has been attacked by government Islamist groups in Turkey for a very, very long time.

Hannah, back to you. We've heard Mr. Erdogan's words. Is there a way for, I suppose, really to track the implementation and whether it makes a difference? I'm just wondering how his words are being received about hardening it, for example, with criminal law when it comes to some of these cases. Yeah, I mean, I think people are quite cynical when they hear Erdogan saying things like that. Actually, the laws are in place in Turkey. They are just not applied. That's what we've seen happening over the past few years. But I think, you know, he can promise you things. And of course, women are voters in Turkey and they do make up, you know, a big part of his party.

Actually, the AKP has many, many female supporters who feel like he was the one who brought the women's rights. Actually, he got rid of things like the headscarf ban that used to be here in Turkey. So he does have to say these things. But I think, you know, more broadly, you know, as Elif said earlier, you know, women are always on the front line when countries start to backslide. And, you know, together with LGBT people, together with ethnic and religious minorities, I think really the canary's in the coal mine. And I think, you know, it's not going to be through Erdogan's legislation that anything is going to change. It is going to be through the activism of the people that are standing up to him.

And women are still standing up to him. You know, many, many civil society groups have stopped protesting, but women are still out there on the streets. Elif, do you see a difference between the cities like Istanbul or Ankara, for example, and the situation as it is for women more rurally? It's such a huge country. It is such a huge and complex country. When we look at the last elections, the local elections, for instance, it's very interesting to see how the opposition was strong, not only in major cities like Istanbul, Ankara, or Izmir, which was a bit more expected, but also in the countryside, and also southeastern Anatolia, where at first glance,

it seems like traditions and patriarchy are more consolidated. So Turkey can surprise us. If I may mention one example, because I don't think it was covered much in international media, in a place called Batman in Turkey, where unfortunately the Hizbullah and Islamist movements have been strong. And their candidates have been saying things like, don't worry, when we get elected, we're going to let women choose the colour of their burqa, you know. So against these people, a young woman in her 20s won in that election, which was remarkable. So Turkey can really surprise us. But nevertheless, I think the institutions have been so broken, We have to recognize that factor personally. When I look at the people, the women and the youth in Turkey, I feel more optimistic. When I look at the politics and politicians, I feel quite depressed. I suppose sometimes it comes down to as well who is entering politics, right, or who is able to enter politics or become elected.

You continue to speak out on this, Alif. Do you feel you gain traction? It's difficult to be a novelist in Turkey. I think it's harder to be a women novelist. You know, from politics to sexuality, history, gender, whatever you write, you might offend the authorities. You know, it's very important for writers to have freedom of speech. But at the same time, I also want to emphasize

this. In Turkey, a book is not a personal item. If a reader loves a book, they share it, you know, there's that word of mouth sharing. On average, one copy is read by five to six people. So the society, the civil society is always full of, yeah,. So the society, the civil society, is always full of, yeah, there's always hope in the civil society. I have to say I've loved so many of your books, particularly 10 Minutes,

38 Seconds, which just jumped out at me yesterday on the bookshelf as I was coming to speak to you and just had a look over it again. Just such wonderful, wonderful writing. Thank you so much for spending some time with us, Elif Shafak and the British-Turkish novelist and Hannah Lucinda Smith coming to us live from Istanbul.

Now to a startling fact. One woman dies from ovarian cancer every two hours in the UK. It's very hard to spot and most diagnoses come in later stages. But now new research is underway to develop the first ovarian cancer vaccine. This is after scientists at the University of Oxford were awarded funding. They're creating ovarian vax, a vaccine they hope will teach the immune system to recognise and attack those earliest stages of ovarian cancer. It is the sixth most common cancer in women

and there are currently no screening programmes for it. This research has been funded with up to £600,000 by Cancer Research UK and the early stages finance with grants from Ovarian Cancer Action. Our reporter Melanie Abbott has spoken to Professor Ahmed Ahmed,

who's Professor of Gynaecology at the University of Oxford, who has been leading this research, and he explained how they got to this point. Five years ago, more than that, we put in an application for ovarian cancer action grant to test whether the immune cells in the tissue of origin of ovarian cancer, which we believe is the fallopian tube. We wanted to test whether these immune cells have memory, and we were successful in getting this grant. So with that support, we spent the last few years doing this research, and that got us the key findings that were the basis for proposing the new programme of research, Cancer Research UK, where we were successful in obtaining this new grant to develop the vaccine. So the vaccine is all about really empowering the body's immunity to fight the cancer, as I understand. Perhaps you can talk us through how you think

it would actually work. The idea is exactly as you describe it. The immune system can recognize alterations in the genome of the cell because these alterations result in proteins that appear foreign to our immune system. And when our immune system is confronted with foreign proteins, it sort of starts reacting to it either by developing antibodies or by cells called T-cells. And these T-cells go and fight these new cancer cells. Yes, they're also known as killer cells, aren't they? Two cells? Yes, very important in fighting cancer. So with this in mind, we thought that developing a vaccine

that essentially educates the immune system to what a cancer of the ovary would look like by providing these altered proteins in the vaccine would then empower the immune system to be ready. These defense mechanisms start to become operational and hopefully stop the tumor from developing. So is the idea then that you inject a few of these unusual protein cells and then, as you say, that educates the immune system to attack them if it sees enough of them to be dangerous enough to cause a tumor? Very much so. Yes, very similar to the concept of, for example, the COVID vaccine. We sort of suspected for a long time that our immune system and the T cells in the fallopian tube would sort of logically have memory to cancers, because this is where we think the tumor starts in the fallopian tube. But we haven't really, as a community of researchers,

shown that previously in the lab. What we were able to find was to get these T-cells from women who are having their fallopian tube removed and also culture the tumor from the same patient if she has ovarian cancer and then show that these immune cells react to the tumor. It strengthened the idea in our minds that actually these immune cells could be educated and trained to develop such immunity and be ready to hopefully eradicate newly developing cancer cells. But then the real bottleneck at the moment is to be able to find which alterations do we use. We will be prioritizing those antigens to choose the most efficient ones in stimulating an immune response. And those ones are the ones that we will then take forward to actual vaccine to start clinical trials.

And just for those without a scientific background, what exactly is an antigen? It's essentially a part of a protein that has a tumour alteration and those are the alterations that we would want to test as potential stimulants for the immune system. We are then at fairly early stages with this research. Indeed, we have proposed a number of components of the vaccine. The next task is to take this forward to the clinical trial. Realistically, it will probably not be before two to three years. And so getting it to market will be much, much longer. Indeed, yes. Although I have, let's say, an optimistic view about this. Because if you start a clinical trial of something that works

and you start seeing the signs that it's working, then a lot of women can already benefit by being included in these clinical trials. You are very right, it would not become available for routine use for the general population for many years. But if the clinical trials start showing early signs that this is working, then women being included in these clinical trials would benefit. This research has been financed by fundraising, some money from Cancer Research UK,

some money from grants you've mentioned. Do you think that something like this should really be government funded? I think government should fund important research, but I am all for collaboration between government and charities. And I think this is something that I would love to see continuing for years and years, this ethos of people helping each other, donating to charities, and then this money going to fund important research. But do you think it would perhaps have been easier or any quicker if there was a government fund that you could access for this kind of thing more easily?

There are government funds for sure. For example, the Medical Research Council, and it really gives support to a lot of research like ours. And I think that there will come a point where we want to say, okay, we have this very exciting data. We need to deliver this quickly so that we get results quicker. We get to patients quicker. One of the advantages of the COVID experience is that it showed us that when there's a will, there's a way. Do you think that it is easy enough to get that kind of funding? Is there that will to speed things along when necessary when it comes to women's cancer? I talk about ovarian cancer in particular. It's not a very common disease and it's not a very rare disease.

So we are in a little bit of a tricky category. And of course, the symptoms are not easy to spot. Absolutely, yes. And also, it comes to predisposition to cancer. You're talking about a much wider population of women who have the family history of cancer. So yeah, I think that for something like ovarian cancer, there is competition with other cancers or with other diseases, but there is clear unmet need, particularly in the area of prevention, because it affects the lives of so many women and the alternative choices are really not ideal.

Professor Ahmed there from Oxford University speaking to our reporter, Melanie Abbott. Well, I can speak to Kerry Wakefield now. She's Chief Executive of the charity Ovarian Cancer Action, which funded the initial stages of the research that Professor Ahmed was talking about. You're very welcome to Women's Hour. You must be delighted with this latest development. We are. I think, you know, it brings huge hope. And it's, as Professor Ahmed said, the results of many years of sort of early

discovery research in the lab that hopefully now will turn into something, you know, really positive for women to prevent ovarian cancer in the future. There's a long way to go but yeah absolutely very exciting. Let's talk about the potential vaccine because it can be really hard to spot ovarian cancer right? Yeah. How much of a game changer do you see it being from your perspective? Yes so you're right. You know, the symptoms aren't always that obvious,

although they are sort of there, particularly at sort of later stages. And a vaccine would be a real game changer. I mean, I think, you know, the starting point for something like this might be, you know, a sort of smaller subset

of women who are at higher risk so about seven and a half thousand women get diagnosed every year with ovarian cancer and a thousand of those will have developed the the cancer because they're at higher risk um they have a fault um in their genes sort of like the bracket gene mutation which i think many people will have heard of because of Angelina Jolie obviously and you know if you're a woman with a bracket gene mutation you've got up to 45 percent higher chance of developing ovarian cancer in your lifetime and you know you compare that to the general population of women of sort of two percent so it's much higher risk so it would be a great place to start. And for those women in particular, you know, it would be a real game changer. Because if you sort of know that you've

got a BRCA gene mutation, as a woman, then you're advised to have your ovaries removed, round about, you know, the age of 35. and that has huge implications for women so um you know some may not be able to have children in the future uh you go into surgical menopause really quickly and that can be very brutal um you know even compared to normal sort of menopause which many of us sort of know about surgical menopause is a sort of different level and then you have other increased health risks that come with with that sort of surgical menopause like osteoporosis for example so you know for that for that group of women it would be really game changing indeed um you mentioned briefly there carry it that uh the symptoms

and that they're more obvious at a later stage. But what should women be looking out for? What are the symptoms? Yeah, I think the symptom that many women associate and know most commonly around ovarian cancer is bloating. But there are others and needing to wee more frequently or feeling full very quickly when you eat or not being able to eat very much and then abdominal pain and I think you know one of the things about these symptoms is that I think for women they know that they can be things that they experience through other things and so they often get confused with other conditions like IBS or indeed menopause as

we've just talked about. I think the difference with these symptoms, though, is that if you have persistent symptoms, then that's the red flag, if you like, where you should be going to talk to your GP, or if you're talking to them anyway about those symptoms, sort of saying, well, okay, you know, could we rule this out? So it's the persistence of symptoms. And there is currently no screening process for ovarian cancer. No, that's completely right. And so, you know, it is it is actually a really complex cancer. And it's one where a disease where we still have a lot more to learn.

And so, you know, having something like the vaccine would be great for prevention, having something that would be a sort of a way of doing early diagnosis would be fantastic. But also we do need more treatments. Because there are still, you know, probably just under 40,000 women living with ovarian cancer in the UK. And for some of them, you know, the vaccine is sort of too late. So treatments and research into treatments is really important. Treatments for and is there and I should say with smear tests, that is for cervical cancer that it's searching for. Is there any potential screening that you could see that would be helpful? I think, you know, there's research going on to into sort of early detection and ways of sort of doing that.

It's hard. I mean, I think if you sort of think about something like a smear test where you're accessing the sort of cells through the cervix or breast cancer or bowel cancer, it's about finding the markers, but then also accessing them. So, you know, it's good that we've got something which is preventative at this stage. Something that came along later that did early detection would be another game changer. But probably, actually, the focus right now is probably on research to get better treatment. I understand. And also, of course, this vaccine as it goes ahead.

Do you have a timeline on that? In terms of the vaccine? Yeah. I think it's sort of out of my hands, definitely. But the phase of work that Professor Ahmed is about to start on will take, you know, maybe up to three years and then going into a clinical trial could take another six. As Professor Ahmed has just described. You know, early signs could help move things perhaps a little bit more quickly. And certainly, you know, for women who could go on to that early clinical trial, then that would be great as well. So these things could take longer than you think. Yeah, but it does give us a little idea.

I was also struck just in our last few seconds that the competition that there is for funding for cancer research, and we heard about where the funding is coming so far, do you think this should be funded by the government? I think the UK is a very different place to many countries. As Professor Armour described, it's sort of a collective effort between government charities and industry. But equally, charities fund a lot of research in this country. And, you know, we would love to see the government maintaining spend or increasing spend. I mean, we're at a critical point here with the budget coming up.

And I think the other thing I would say is that, well, probably two things, really. One is that, you know, charities have been put under a lot of pressure over the last few years. And so fundraising is not hard. And the other thing is that women's research into women's diseases tends to be underfunded. Underfunded. Kerry Wakefield from Ovarian Cancer Action. Thank you so much for joining me. Join me tomorrow when I'll have J. Smith Cameron,

who's Juno in Juno and the Peacock in the West End. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. Hi, everyone. Hey, that's Marianna Spring. I'm Sarah Smith and we are a couple of the hosts

of America. And right now, as you might imagine, it's not very quiet over in Podcast HQ. We've been keeping ourselves very busy. Yeah, because the two of us, along with Justin Webb and Anthony Zerker, are now getting together a few times a week as we chat through trying to untangle

all the twists and turns and developments in the US presidential election. And it would be fair to say there have been quite a lot of twists and turns already. We've also been chatting a lot about what happens on social media, my favourite topic. If you're interested in US politics, you want to understand what is going on, then I think you might really like our podcast, which is simply called America.

You can listen to it on BBC Sounds. Until then, we'll see you later. I'm Sarah Trelevan, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth.

How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.