Woman's Hour - Kelsey Parker, 'Sharenting', Maternity leave
Episode Date: February 23, 2024It has been almost two years since the death of The Wanted star Tom Parker after he was diagnosed with an inoperable brain tumour in 2020 aged 33. His wife, Kelsey Parker, announced last month that, a...fter a lot of reflection, it was time to take off her wedding rings. Kelsey joins Anita Rani in the Woman’s Hour studio to discuss this decision and how she has dealt with her grief.What is the impact of 'sharenting' on the first generation of kids who grew up with it? Dorothy Koomson's new thriller, Every Smile You Fake, follows the daughter of a parenting influencer who has mysteriously disappeared. Anita speaks to Dorothy and Dr Emma Nottingham about sharenting and the proposed legislation in the US and France to regulate it.Tomorrow is the second anniversary of the Russian invasion of Ukraine. Oksana Grytsenko is a Ukrainian playwright and freelance journalist covering the war for various newspapers including the Wall Street Journal. She joins Anita to discuss living in Ukraine two years into the war, what is acceptable to write about whilst living through a conflict and the opening of her play focused on a family of women living in a village occupied by Russian soldiers.The first Police and Crime Commissioner to take maternity leave, Emily Spurrell, joins us on the programme. On becoming pregnant, she realised no maternity provision existed for the role and took matters in to her own hands. She joins Anita alongside Tim Durrant, Programme Director at the Institute for Government, who’s currently researching maternity leave provisions for elected officials. Presenter: Anita Rani Producer: Emma Pearce
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Hello, I'm Anita Rani and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4.
Good morning and welcome to the programme.
Sharenting, is that a word you've heard?
This is when parents share information about their children online.
Is this you? Have you put up pics of your kids,
divulged information that maybe you've later
regretted or maybe not? Are you the child who's having the images and information shared about
you? Maybe it's simply so your friends and family can keep up to date with what's going on in your
life. But of course, if your account is public or even if it's not, your information is public.
Does it matter? Has it caused conflict in your household with your children or with your parents?
And how do you feel about other people putting up information about their children and how they choose to parent?
I would love to hear your stories this morning.
Share your share-enting stories with me.
Get in touch in the usual way.
The text number 84844.
You can contact me via social media at BBC Woman's Hour.
You can WhatsApp me on 03700 100 444
and of course you can email me by going to our website.
Also on the programme, Emily Spurrell,
the first police and crime commissioner to have a baby while in office.
But it was only once pregnant and in the job that she discovered
there were no maternity provisions in place.
So as well as being pregnant, she had to sort it out herself.
I'll be speaking to her. And two years since the start of the Russian invasion of Ukraine, you will hear from
a journalist based in Odessa. And of course, I would like to hear from you on anything you hear
on the programme that you want to share your opinions and thoughts about, the text number
84844. But first, to a story of true resilience. I'm joined in the studio today by Kelsey Parker. Kelsey's
husband Tom, best known for being a pop star in the band The Wanted, died nearly two years ago
after he was diagnosed with an inoperable brain tumour in 2020, aged just 33. Throughout his
illness Tom spoke openly and honestly about his diagnosis and was involved in raising awareness and funding to highlight the impact of brain tumours, often with Kelsey by his side. After
his death, she's continued his work. Kelsey and Tom were together for 13 years and have two children.
She announced last month, after a lot of reflection, it was time to take off her wedding
rings and Kelsey joins me now in the studio to tell me all
about it. Kelsey welcome. Hello thank you for having me. Absolutely our pleasure. So much I
want to talk to you about because I said this is a true story of true resilience and we'll get into
all of that but first of all why now and how did you come to the decision after two years to take
your wedding rings off?
Do you know what? It's something that I thought about since the very beginning. I feel like when Tom went to the hospice and it was time for him to leave me, you know, we had this exchange where he put the ring on his wedding ring on my finger.
So it was so important to me like our marriage and and everything but
you know it's so hard because obviously how people react to it but in this lifetime i'm not married
to anyone tom's no longer here he's my husband this the wedding ring was just a symbol of our
love it doesn't mean our love like my love is endless for him and it will never fade
and it will never go anywhere but it's time for me especially this year I just feel a lot clearer
and I can't make sense of it I probably had a haze and a bit of a brain fog for for you know
what's going to be two years next month but I just feel clearer I feel like I can see this year
and it's time to focus on me I gave so much to Tom and I would never ever change anything that
I did for him but as soon as he was diagnosed you know it was about Tom so maybe this year
I'm focusing more on me which I need to do and so was it a slow process I mean did you keep the rings on did
you keep his ring on for the entire two years and how did that make you feel for that time whilst
you had them on you know it's bittersweet I'd look down at my finger and be like he's not here
how how can I move forward with my life now that I've not got him you know I was with Tom since I
was 19 I only know my life with Tom I don't know what my life looks like now.
And I guess for me, that was quite confusing.
So it's like we're married.
And, you know, we had the most amazing wedding.
I look down at the wedding ring and think,
oh, the memories we had together.
But I'll always have their memories.
The wedding ring doesn't symbolise that.
It's in here, isn't it?
And in my heart.
What have you done with them?
What will you do with them?
At the moment, they're in a box because I don't know what to do with them.
You know, and I laughed myself of what Tom would say to do.
I'm not going to even tell you what Tom would tell me to do.
No, I'm not going to say.
But, you know, I would like them for the kids.
It's making a decision who gets what ring.
They're beautiful rings as well.
So, you know, a lot of people have said, oh, why don't you melt them down and make them as one but i'm like place a stunning ring i can't i can't do that and i know that
the effort he went to to get that ring made for me as well i don't think you need to make a decision
yet i think you can just sit with it sit with it do what you want as someone's actually been in
such maybe maybe people listening have gone through something similar maybe they can tell
us what they've done with their wedding rings.
Helen is emailed in straight away to say,
I removed my wedding rings after my husband died five years ago,
mainly due to my fingers swelling after steroid treatment.
However, last year I had them altered and now wearing them again.
I will always be married to my beloved husband despite his untimely death.
Age 63, there is no one else for me.
So, you know, other people sharing their experiences.
A couple of weeks ago on the programme here, we talked about Kate Garraway going back to work and she said the first time someone called her a widow knocking on the door it was a delivery man and he called her a widow and it
and it it made her really think about the fact that that's how people will see her now
and I just wonder whether you remember being given that label for the first time for me it was when you know the
paperwork side of things that was really like it's so hard to actually get your you know your
your paperwork in order and then it was for me every time it's like oh you're a widow now you're
a widow now you know just organizing things and for me I was 31 and made a widow and two young
children you know I never thought my life would look like this.
And it's scary, you know, 31 and how people think you should dress and look and be a widow.
It's like, that's not me either.
And how are the children?
They're really good.
They're so good.
And, you know, I'm so proud of how they're doing.
Don't get me wrong.
Children are relentless anyway.
But it's every day we talk
about, you know, they're really obsessed with death at the moment. And actually, my mum dropped
Aurelia to school this morning and they're going to be talking about families today. And the teacher
just flagged and said, we're going to be talking about families. And my mum went, oh, don't worry,
Aurelia will be fine. She'll get up and tell everyone that her dad's dead. We're very honest
and we're very open. And I don't want her to feel like, you know,, Aurelia will be fine. She'll get up and tell everyone that her dad's dead. We're very honest and we're very open.
And I don't want her to feel like, you know, it's an elephant in the room.
How did you feel when they said the teachers said that that's what the conversation was going to be?
Well, my mum rang me and said, oh, they're going to talk about this in school today.
And I was like, oh, she'll be absolutely fine.
Because why should she shy away from that?
That's her life.
We're living life without her dad dad so how do you talk about it
at home we're really honest and open and they are quite obsessed with death at the moment so
uh bode's like oh when's my mum gonna come home she's not dead yet like and then aurelia said
because when tom actually passed i said i'm gonna go and let the angels take daddy today they're
gonna collect daddy and we won't see daddy anymore so she was saying to me the other night oh when the
angels take me what will happen to me and you know I try and make it so she's not scared of death
because I don't want her to think that you know it was an awful experience for her dad because
it might not have been an awful experience for her dad and I don't think it was I think he passed very peacefully and had a really nice death and I always talk about it when I die I would like a death like Tom
and I know that's really hard for people to listen to right now but he did have a magical death it's
your experience I think it's maybe it'll be hard for some maybe not for others but I think people
will definitely be paying attention to what you have to say so tell us more what about about the debt he's dead i don't mind
you know i did everything well and so did tom to make him as healthy as possible yeah so in
them final stages he wasn't you know nothing was failing his liver wasn't failing his kidneys
weren't failing like he was actually healthy and he was really tanned we'd just been
to Spain for three weeks because we were having treatment over there and I just think you know
I've become quite spiritual and it's made me think maybe when it's your time it's your time and I do
think Tom had fought so hard and just came to the stage where he'd had enough and it was his time and his passing was so
peaceful. His breathing changed and he just went. But I always laugh because Tom was so scared to
die. Like he was like, oh, I'm so scared. I'm like, it's fine. You're going to be fine. Like
anyone's going to be fine. So I'm like, when it's your time, it's your time.
And when he passed over i i
had this feeling that he probably was looking at me going was that it was that it i was worried
about that because it was peaceful kelsey this is something i just from knowing the stuff i know
about you from seeing you on other things and reading about you even people listening to you
talk or maybe experiencing that same thing is what struck me is your strength
and your resilience even you saying that you were the one supporting him to say don't be scared
when you had two little children in fact you were 35 weeks pregnant when he was diagnosed
so you had to give birth once you after you knew what was happening yeah that was traumatic well obviously I had Tom that had just
been diagnosed and and he was so scared and so frightened and it was almost like he was another
child of mine because he was you know he'd just been given the news that he had a stage four
cancer and also you know there's not a lot of funding and there's not a lot we can do you're
going to have this radio and chemo you know know, when you're diagnosed, you want that magic wand. You want
someone to go, don't worry, you've got stage four, but you're going to be all right. We never got a
prognosis and I was pregnant. We were in COVID. So even going into the hospital, it was like,
when we went in, we couldn't leave. We were given a room and I felt guilty when I was actually in labor because I wanted to be
there for Tom and I thought for this right you've just got to get this baby out and literally he did
come out like a rocket um but I was like I've got I've got to just get this baby out and then
I'm back to Tom and I said to the nurse as soon as I had Bodie they were like do you want any pain
relief I went no I'm fine they're like I just can't believe that you're you're not even having
anything I'm so I'm fine and I said and what I just can't believe that you're not even having anything.
I was like, I'm fine.
And I said, and what's the earliest I can leave?
And they was like, 5am, because you've had like a nighttime baby and you've got to stay in.
I was like, right, I'm leaving at five.
I'll have someone at the door.
Because Tom had to go home.
And I was like, you're going to radio and chemo.
That's it.
We've got to continue.
And that's how I think I've got my strength. You know, I've been, I can look forward and push forward.
Where does that come from?
Just within.
I think I've got it within me.
And people ask me that all the time.
And I don't know where it comes from, but I'm just strong.
You are, right?
There is an energy.
But I mean, you can, people will hear it in your voice.
I can see it because I'm sitting opposite you and I can see your eyes.
But not everybody can would have
dealt with this not everybody you gave birth and with no and then decided knew you had to be by
your husband's side is it I know you mentioned your mum already yeah tell me about your support
network because what I wonder what your mum would say if she was sitting here if I asked her where
does Kelsey's strength come from what do you think she would say I don't know but my mum's one of these people that just gets on with it
whatever's life life throws at you you've got to get on with it and she said to me even when Tom
was diagnosed I remember ringing my mum like obviously distraught because that's the person
you go to my mum was like he's gonna be fine don't worry about it he's gonna be fine and I thought
mum my mum thinks he's gonna be fine that's it we we remain positive and maybe it's that positive energy that I've got you know and I do find it
hard because I understand how people hit rock bottom with this and you know when Tom did die
I struggled to obviously get out of bed for me it was when he actually went into the hospice and I
thought this is it that was my really hard period where I felt like someone had dropped a ton of bricks on me and I couldn't get out of bed.
But again, I needed to get out of bed for him.
I needed to be there for him.
So what got you out?
Him and being there and being strong and being there for my kids.
Like they were babies.
They can't see me broken, even though I was broken inside.
Of course I was.
I had to pull myself together and get on
with it and maybe that strength was you know with Kate Garrow she's gone back to work like I went
back to work really quick but I know now that I was probably having an out-of-body experience
I was just maybe looking down at my body going you're still going girl you're still going
when did you realize that that's what was happening what was there a process where you slowed you slowed down and actually gave yourself
time to process what you'd been through do you know what probably over this christmas yeah
i think this that was my time to go you know i'm so proud of myself and i don't tell myself
enough of how strong and great i actually am and I know I should do that because
we you know as women you should tell that even just being a mum and waking up for your kids in
the morning I know is a struggle but to go through what I've been through and still be here and still
be strong and still be present I am proud of myself but I have had moments you know. Who do
you pick the phone up to or don't you? Oh I think I am a good sharer as well I if I
am having a problem I will ring everyone and I I've got the village and I think now this is
people haven't got the villages I think everyone's so busy with work and having to go to work and
earn a living and try and be you know present for their kids and take them to the clubs.
And, you know, life is so busy.
But even like mine and Tom's back door was always open.
People were always in our house.
Like we've always had the village.
And I think I couldn't have got through this without, you know,
my family, Tom's family.
Like we are a village.
You've always been positive though, haven't you?
You've always been sort of the driving force.
And even in the relationship, you were so young when you got together he wasn't even
famous at that point right no I met him when he on his first night out in the band in a nightclub
and he was like oh yeah I'm a pop star I was like oh is that what he said well he's like I'm in a
band I was like okay what's your band called he went oh no we've not got a name yet I was like
okay what was it about him he just just had, he was just everything.
And it's really weird.
Again, I'm quite spiritual now
and I maybe was always like this,
but I didn't know.
I saw Tom outside of a nightclub
and grabbed my best friend,
who's also called Kelsey.
My best friend is called Kelsey.
Grabbed Kelsey and went,
I'm in love with him.
She went, what? I went, no, no, no. There's something about him. I need to speak and went, I'm in love with him. She went, what?
I went, no, no, no, there's something about him.
I need to speak to him when I get into this nightclub.
And I've never felt like that about anyone.
But he had an energy and an aura and we were just literally drawn to each other.
And people, when obviously we became like official and been together a long time,
everyone would say to us, you are the boy and girl version of each other.
Amazing.
We were actually boy and girl then, weren't i should say like now you're female but we were kids when we got together we've been through so much i only know like my life with tom
and so how has it been it's hard without him even making decisions even you know dropping the kids
to school when they've got well book days coming up i would love to send them a picture and go oh look what aurelia's wearing bode is doing amazing at his preschool
i just would love to share but he's watching me he's with me i can feel him you've mentioned it
twice now and which is you said you've never you weren't spiritual before but you are now
what's happened i just think it opened my eyes that there's got to be more out there
just with everything just the route that me and Tom took with making him better and getting through
the 18 months I really found you know peace in spirituality but also um alternative medicine
like it's really opened my eyes because I think when you're in a situation
where you've gone into the room they've told you that he's got the worst brain cancer possible
there's no funding this is this is what it's going to be you're going to get the radio the chemo if
if that works we'll give him a little bit more chemo. You tried everything, didn't you? But that's it. We tried everything.
And that would be my advice for people.
Throw everything you've got at it.
But you had the resources as well, Kelsey.
You were lucky enough to have the resources, weren't you?
Yeah.
But, you know, there is so much out there that you can, you know,
I got into studying and reading books and being on the internet
till whatever time at night.
Again, I speak about, I looked at survival stories.
Mine was, you know, who's surviving this?
Why are they surviving it?
What are they doing?
We're doing it.
Now, we've talked a lot about, you know,
various choices that you're making
and you said you processed things over Christmas
and it takes time.
We've talked a lot about grief on this programme as well.
And you met someone else and people feel that they had an opinion on that.
So I want to talk a bit about the trolling, the negative side.
I just think people are very entitled to opinions.
And I guess I have shared my journey in a really raw, vulnerable way.
And I want people, you know, know even meeting someone that was part of my
grief journey at that time I needed someone and it wasn't my friend my friends and my family it
was someone else um but you know everyone deals with grief so differently and there's no right
or wrong way and who who's anyone to judge I would never judge anyone now because you know
walk a day in my shoes and then come back to me
and then see if you could be judgmental.
Well, when I was reading about that, I thought,
I wonder if people would have the same opinion
if it was a widowed man moving on.
Would people say the same thing if a man had met someone?
It just crossed my mind.
Well, for me, I don't think they do.
I think it's OK for a man to need his dinner cooked
and need affection and love.
It's not okay for a woman, and I don't understand why.
Why is that different?
Because, like what I said,
what my friends and family gave me was everything,
but I needed more.
I don't know what it was.
And I'd been there for Tom for so long and fought for him.
You don't need to justify it.
No, I know.
No, I mean, not here. I mean, say what you want, but you don't, you know.
But how do you then cope with that on top of everything else, the public having an opinion on you and your personal life?
I need to focus on my kids and I don't really care what anyone,
maybe that's why I'm so resilient.
I don't actually care what people think about me.
It's a superpower.
Yeah.
I actually don't like, okay, people are trolling me,
but, you know, I'm living my life and that's it.
And if you, like what I said, walk in my shoes,
then come back to me and see if you do anything different.
But even the toughest cookie, when you get, you know,
that one message, you just glance on social media
and someone might just say something that really does hurt your feelings.
So what do you do?
But is that reflection on them, that they're actually going online
and putting that out there?
Like, I would never dream of going onto anyone's page
and posting something mean or horrible.
Like, that's just not me.
Like I said, I'm about positive energy
what you give out in life is what you get back so if you want to go around trolling good luck
so what's next next chapter where are you in your life you know what I'm excited to see what my
future is and I think I've been scared for the past two years of where my future's taking me.
But I've got one life and I've got to live it to the full
and be there for my kids.
And yeah, I'm excited.
You know, there's so many things that I want to do
and make Tom proud, you know,
shine more light on the brain tumour awareness.
It gets 1% of funding.
There's no research that goes into brain tumours. So know I've got to do something about that um but just personally
to make myself happy again and I don't know what happiness looks like but I'm excited to see what
my future will be it's been such a pleasure speaking to you this morning thank you so much
for coming in you know we've had lots of messages from people
sharing their own stories.
Shall I read some of them out?
Yeah, read them.
We've got one here saying,
I've been widowed for nearly 16 years
and I don't wear my wedding ring.
My husband died at 59
and I left his wedding ring on his finger
because he never took it off.
In life, as Kelsey says,
my wedding ring doesn't stand
for my continued love for my husband
or our marriage.
This is in my heart.
And another one from rachel saying my mum
died 10 years ago and my dad was quite quick to take off his ring which upset me initially but i
later found his and my mum's rings together in her jewelry box which was sweet when i turned 18 my
dad gave me my mum's wedding ring to wear and i've had it on every day since he's since given me his
wedding ring and my mum's engagement ring and permission for my partner to use them for my own engagement ring see i love that that's what i really want to do
so aurelia will have it one day there we go kelsey it's been such a pleasure thank you so much thank
you um and of course if you've been affected by anything from that discussion you can head to our
website to find links for support and please keep your thoughts coming in 84844 now to a work of fiction that is drawing
attention to the potential dangers of sharenting that is sharing too much information about your
children on social media every every smile you fake is the new psychological thriller by the
author dorothy coombson and follows brandy the daughter of a parenting influencer who's
mysteriously disappeared it explores the impact of sharenting on the first generation of kids who grew up as subjects of their parenting channels or blogs.
And very much in the real world, you may have heard of proposed laws in France and the US
that seek to regulate so-called sharenting, in particular when it's monetised.
Well, to discuss this and more, I'm joined by Dorothy Coombson and Dr Emma Nottingham,
a senior lecturer in law at the University of Winchester.
Welcome both of you. Emma I'm going to come to you first. How would you define sharenting?
Sharenting is a term that has evolved over time. It generally comes from the word share and parenting.
So it refers to the oversharing of information and images by parents about children,
generally via social media. Initially, that has generally meant just sharing information about
your day to day life. But over time, it's become a process that can be much more commercial. So now
we see a lot of vloggers and social media influencers who include images of children on their platforms.
Dorothy, why did you want to write about it?
Initially, I started writing about it because I wanted to tell the story of somebody who was famous.
And nowadays, most people are Internet famous and you're able to become internet famous and as I discovered a lot of the people who
are internet famous as it were have a history um they come from a background where a lot of their
lives have been put online and it is a very big thing when when we started with um the internet
social media mainly mainly Facebook.
We were sharing it and we were sharing it amongst friends and family,
people we knew.
And I don't think we've realised how broad the people we're sharing information with has become.
And so when I was writing Every Smiley Fake,
I decided to kind of explore that area of our world,
our online lives that we kind of don't pay attention
to. A lot of the time we don't read the terms and conditions of social media sites and we don't
realize that they can sell our data on, they can sell our images on and people who used to use
Facebook and Instagram and all of the social media sites to keep up with family and friends are now sharing
it with a bigger, much bigger audience than they actually intended to. And you started doing a lot
of research into it. So what did you find? Well, I found a lot of stuff that was very unsettling.
I'm trying not to say scary, because I don't want to scare people. But a lot of people, as I said, used it to share information about family and to family and friends.
But don't realize that according to lots of different research things, by the age of 13, a child has had their image shared about 1,300 times by other people.
So a child has had pictures of themselves uploaded to the internet,
to social media sites by other people.
They have no control over that.
And you have no control.
Once you've uploaded it, you have no control of what people do with that image and um i found really unsettling um
research that showed that people um less less um sort of ethical people should we say
use those images they come across those images they save those images and they use them in other
forums in other ways that you don't actually think about.
Other people might be using pictures of your children.
Emma, let's come to you.
Does this sort of resonate with you?
And tell us a bit about the research that you've been doing into this.
Yes, so sharenting is quite a new phenomenon.
So the research in this area is still relatively new
and there's a lot to explore.
I think there needs to be a bit more understanding around the potential harms that can occur as a result of sharenting.
So for example, the emotional distress that might cause a child in the future. But equally,
it's also important to balance that negative side of it with the positive side, because sharenting has also been a way for people to connect with others, reach out to different communities via social media.
So I think research going forwards needs to weigh up those pros and cons.
Yeah, because, I mean, as you said, Dorothy, we're sort of in this open landscape now.
It's almost like the Wild West, isn't it, where we're just figuring out new terrain, it's new territory.
But cases are occurring where children are growing up who have had their lives shared and some of them aren't particularly OK with it.
No, absolutely not. And they find that the things that their parents shared with them about them, follow them through their lives.
And one of the people who I started following on the on social media who talks a lot about their experiences,
talks a lot about things like they had they were in a car crash and rather than their mother sort of comforting them whilst they were on in the hospital,
their mother was taking pictures of them and posting about the crash in a way that was really, you know,
it's really awful for them because they didn't get the comfort of a mother they got
somebody who was posting about their their injuries and how the mother felt about the
the crash rather than getting support um there were so many instances of people who felt like
you know they were keeping their family going financially because if they apparently if they stopped,
they refused to be a part of what their parents were sharing on vlogging and blogs.
They their family would basically end up destitute.
They'd have no money to do anything.
Well, this is a woman who's a journalist, wasn't it?
Who's sharing information. But she was just talking about her column and it was her life right so children would be part of
that. Yes no not just her there was there's so many other parents who children who have been told
and who tell Cam who I was just talking about with who was in the car crash. A lot of people who, children,
who parents do put their lives online,
talk to them about their experiences.
And they say regularly that children are told that if they stopped allowing their parents
to share their lives online,
their whole family will have no income
and they'll be destitute.
It's kind of one of the phenomenons because there is so much money to be made,
you know, millions sometimes,
and that's before endorsements and holidays and clothes and stuff.
I wonder what part the sort of just the addictive nature
of this social media has to play in all of this
is that something you've come across as time's gone on they've become more addictive and the way
that social media sites are structured they are very addictive you the whole constant continuous
scrolling where things are just constantly played one after the other, it's really addictive. And you can
imagine that you get a hit every time you get a hit of dopamine, you get a hit of happier hormones,
when people interact with you, people take pay attention to you. And sometimes it doesn't even
have to be positive interaction, it can be negative. And that is a hit of attention that you're constantly
craving. You're constantly craving people interacting with you, people paying attention
to you, you being the centre of the story. Emma, what's the picture like around the world? And
have there been attempts to regulate it? Give us a bit more context. In the UK, there isn't really
any regulation around sharing at the moment. And that hasn't featured very much in the uk there isn't really any regulation around uh sharenting at the moment and that
hasn't featured very much in the recent debates around the online safety bill um
overseas in france um there is a new bill that was put forward in 2023 um so that's really leading
the way i think for other jurisdictions to follow. And that would
make parents responsible for the protection of their children's privacy. It would mean that they
also have to involve the child in decision making around sharenting as much as possible.
It also does give some powers to actually ban one or both parents from sharing images.
And in really extreme cases, a judge can actually take the parent's authority to use their child's image away.
Dorothy, what impact do you hope your book will have? You've picked this as a subject.
What would you like the reactions to be?
I'd like people just to be aware of what they're sharing. I mean, as Emma said, I think sharing online information is actually a good thing.
I don't think it's, I know I sound like I'm being down on people, but it began as a way of getting support. And it is a very valid way of getting support.
And especially if you don't live near anybody who has children the same age as you or live near family being
online and sharing online is good but you've got to be aware of what you're doing and what you're
who is looking at your stuff and um who can use your images your children's images and how it
affect your children's lives later on one of the the people whose story I was following says that even now
they have to, when they meet somebody new or they go for a job interview, they have to make
these people aware of what has been shared online about them so that they know that nothing's going
to come back to bite them basically or follow them up and it's nothing that they've shared or nothing
that they've created but somebody else has created it and therefore has impacted them and it will
impact them for the rest of their lives thank you both for speaking there's lots to think about
there that was dorothy coompson and dr emma nottingham and if you've been affected by any
of the issues raised in that conversation you can find support links on our website
84844 the number to text.
Lots of you getting in touch with what you heard about Kelsey Parker's interview that we spoke to her this morning.
I'm a widow.
I gave our wedding rings to our daughter
and then future son-in-law to use for their wedding rings.
Either sell them and put the money towards others
or have them melted down.
Keep your thoughts coming in.
You can also email me by going to our website.
Now, 2024 is a leap year.
And next week, 29th of February, is the day when traditionally women are allowed to propose to their male partner.
What are your views on this?
Should women be confined to one day every four years?
We'd love to hear your stories.
Did you propose to your partner?
When did you choose?
Was it a leap year or a more unexpected or personal time?
And more importantly, what was the response?
And men, we'd love to hear from you too.
Were you proposed to?
How did you feel about it?
Get in touch in all the usual ways.
You can email me by going to our website.
You can message us on 84844.
Now, tomorrow is the second anniversary of the Russian invasion of Ukraine.
According to UN Women, since the beginning of the war, more newspapers, including the Wall Street Journal,
and regularly heading to the front line
to report on what's happening.
Her latest play, Milkweed Man,
opens in Odessa tomorrow afternoon
to mark the anniversary.
She describes it as a tragedy comedy
revealing a family of women living in a village
occupied by Russian soldiers
debating whether it's time to leave.
Well, I spoke to Oksana earlier this morning
from Odessa after reports there had been drone strikes overnight with three people killed.
I asked her first what her reaction was to this news after two years of the war.
It's always, it's always gruesome. Like I say, yeah, three more people. Oh my God. And I,
again, I thought that there might be people killed in Dnipro as well, because there was a residential house, which was hit by drone, and people were maybe under the rubble. So there could be more casualties, unfortunately.
Your main job, your paid job is as a journalist covering the war for the Wall Street Journal and other papers. What's it like being on the front line?
Well, it's different because we travel to different areas.
Sometimes we see some optimistic stories,
but most often, of course, there are stories of destruction,
of people losing their houses, losing their loved ones. Like last time I traveled to Kharkiv, it was really, really bad
because overnight when we were there, we heard explosions and I just immediately jumped to the
bathroom because I heard it's very loud, it's something really serious. And in the morning,
we checked the big house, which was hit by a Russian missile. and basically there was like part of the house demolished.
And we saw how the rescue workers were looking for people, and they found one man alive.
And it was, you know, like really everybody was happy because the person was saved.
But later that day, like five more people were found under the same rubble, and they
were all dead, including the girlfriend of the man we saw alive.
The UN, Oksana, I'm sure you've seen this, published a press release yesterday saying that women in Ukraine face increased challenges in accessing security, justice, social services, mental, sexual and reproductive health services, employment, and that the war has heightened the risk of gender-based
violence, including conflict-related sexual violence, human trafficking, and intimate
partner violence. Is that a picture that resonates for you? Well, I realize that people in Ukraine,
they live under constant stress, and our moral state, our psychological state is going not for better.
Definitely.
That's why I think from this goes all this kind of arguments and violence against women
including.
And of course, when there is war and destruction and the loss, the worst comes out of people.
And that's also a reason of heightened violence against women, I suppose.
And of course, you'll be talking to women.
What are they saying to you?
Oh, very different stories.
I saw so many brave women, women who are able to survive no matter what for example like i remember woman in the harkin region in the like a destroyed
former farm where they rebuilt a house which was the basically it was done from the cases of russian
weapons so the son of this woman and her husband they build the second floor of the building and now they live there and she plants
avocado in a small pot and when you look in the window it's like a lunar landscape
everything's destroyed there there's no houses there's like a trees they're demolished they're
like deformed but at the same time this woman she plants avocado and she kind of
tries to keep her life normal and this is really I don't know it's warming and and gruesome at the
same time. You actually Oksana left Ukraine initially when the invasion took place two
years ago and you went to Romania and then you made a decision to go back. Why? What brought you back?
It's my job because I'm a journalist.
And of course, for journalists, the best place to be is to be closer to conflict, to see how the events are developing.
I started working with the Wall Street Journal when I was in Romania.
So I was basically talking to people online or through phone and I was checking it
through the internet but when you come to the place when you see people and like it's definitely
very different and you get the first-hand account from of what's going on in Ukraine and another
reason basically when I was in Romania, I felt like an observer.
I was checking what's going on in Ukraine.
I was crying a lot.
I was worrying for everybody.
But when I came to Ukraine, I became a kind of participant.
And it's a different feeling.
It's more empowering.
So I feel much better when I'm here, though I realize it's definitely more dangerous because Russian missiles can hit you everywhere.
Why did you choose to stay? It takes a certain resilience and a certain, not everybody would make that choice, Oksana.
Well, I was covering this conflict since 2014, since Russia annexed Crimea.
I kind of accustomed to violence,
to this kind of horrible event.
At the same time, I realize my life makes more sense when I'm here than when I'm abroad, I think.
Because I can cover the war.
Of course.
It must be incredibly tough some days.
What gets you through?
Yes, it's a good question.
Well, I a good rest so basically
when i leave when i come back from assignment i take a day or two when i just don't work and rest
always helps i do sports i go to gym it also helps ideally of course to go to a swimming pool but
it's hard with this in kiev now And yes, like meeting friends, family relations,
this usual stuff which helps everybody, that's what helps me as well. And amongst all of this,
you've found time to write a play called Milkweed Man. Tell us about it. This is a story about
five women who live under occupation. They live in a small village and they argue all the time
should they leave it or should they stay. And a milkweed man, it's like a magic creature
which a grandma advises a mother to grow up from the seeds of a milkweed. And basically it is kind of a Jewish golem.
So basically a creature which was created
to save people from enemies.
So this milkweed man should save these women
from Russian soldiers who live in the same village.
But basically it's like more complicated than that
because these women, they're able to help themselves even without any any magic and why did you want to focus on the experience of
women why center around five women there were a number of reasons so basically i wanted to write
about life under occupation because it's really i'm really concerned about how people survive there. And I interviewed people who came from under-occupied cities and villages.
And all of them, it happened that all of them were women.
So basically these were women's stories.
And I am a woman myself, so some stuff I kind of understand better
and maybe can show them better from a woman's perspective.
And there was also practical reason when I was working on this play I consulted to one theater director who's also a woman and she
told me if you want to write a play you better do it with female characters because if it's being
staged and for example brought somewhere abroad it'll be a trouble if you have male characters, because for men, it's impossible to travel abroad now.
Actually, it's possible for Ukrainian actors, but it's difficult.
And when you were deciding what to write about, were there things that you thought were just too painful?
How did you know what to focus on or what you wouldn't focus on? I wanted the story to be not just painful
because basically every, I think every play written now in Ukraine,
most of them are like maybe like 99% are about war
and there's always pain in them.
But I wanted to make it in a way optimistic and even funny
because I think comedy helps people survive
through the difficult times and we are already in two years at war we cannot just write in a
sad words about sad stuff that's why i try to make it in a genre of tragic and comedy at the same
time and when i heard, like,
was performative reading of my play,
I visited it and I saw, like,
people were laughing a lot.
And I thought, well, actually,
when I was writing it,
I was quite sad.
But in a way, it brings people love,
which I think is good.
And it's what we all need in Ukraine now.
We need optimism. Definitely what we are lacking at the moment.
So what do you think theatre has to offer people at this time in Ukraine?
I think it should offer some sense.
It should offer some procession of the events which are happening around people.
And at the same time, it should bring them some hope, some optimism,
because we'll have a lot of patience and optimism and resilience to keep on living through this in
Ukraine, especially it's for audience in Ukraine, I think. And I'm interested in what you just said
that writing the play was was quite
painful for you so what was the what was the whole process like writing it and then actually
watching people respond to it it was strange it was you know it's always like uh some stuff
i thought like very important but people didn't notice it that much but other stuff they noticed
it which you didn't pay that much attention you know
you never know how audience react but yeah I was surprised that they'd laughed so much
in the end they were nearly crying which which is kind of predictable because when I was finishing
this play I was all in in tears but it's how it should be absolutely oksana what a thing to be able to offer people at such a
horrific moment in history what are your hopes and fears for the next few months
uh all my my hopes and fears are linked to the front line so if our soldiers like stay put
it'll be good and of course my hopes are lying on what's going on in the United States.
And if we get military assistance, financial assistance from the US, because again, it's
what impacts frontline and it's what impacts the safety of our cities, because we need
air defense.
We badly need air defense every day we see this. So if we get it,
but the sooner it happens, the better it will be for us, the more lives will be saved, I think.
Oksana Gritsenko there talking to me from Odessa earlier this morning.
Now my next guest is an unintentional trailblazer. Emily Spurrell, who will soon in a few weeks
become the first police and crime commissioner
to have a baby while in office.
PCCs, as they're called, are directly elected politicians
whose job is to oversee the police force in their area,
Merseyside, in Emily's case.
When she found out she was pregnant last year,
it turned out there was no protocols or laws
for maternity leave provisions for her role
and that she's not eligible for statutory maternity leave. So, like many other women before, she had to figure it out by herself.
Emily, welcome to the programme. Also joining us is Tim Durrant, Programme Director at the
Institute of Government, who's currently researching maternity leave provisions for
elected officials. Tim, welcome to you. Emily, I'm going to come to you first. Did you know
there were no rules for maternity before you got pregnant and how did you find out?
I wasn't aware. I knew there were limited restrictions.
You know, I know that colleagues in Parliament and the council have had similar challenges, but I think I naively thought that I would be entitled to something and particularly relevant to me was that I was keen to use shared parental leave so
that I could passport some of my entitlement onto my partner who could then take the time off and
then I could return. So I had this whole plan and it was only after I, you know, we started making
inquiries about well what is the process, what is the guidance, we discovered actually I'm not
entitled to any of that and there's no guidance in place so we've kind of been finding our way a
little bit. How do you react to something like that when you find out well i think it was a bit frustrating i think you
know it's been a long journey for for me and my husband to get pregnant so i think we were obviously
really excited and hadn't really thought i guess about what came next because this was such a big
hurdle for us so i was uh i suppose just a bit uh frustrated that i'm having to spend some time figuring out what that looks like rather than most mums who are kind of excitedly planning the arrival of their new baby and things like that.
So I guess it was just an air of frustration that we're not going to be able to access what we want to do.
So I'm going to read out the Home Office statement here. It says,
As elected individuals, it is for PCCs to determine their own arrangements for any period of absence from their office. Where a PCC is intending to make alternative arrangements to
fulfil their duties, we would encourage PCCs to engage their police and crime panel about their
proposed arrangements. What did you do? Well, we had those conversations with the Home Office and
I think there's an acknowledgement that this is the first time that we've experienced this.
So albeit the role is still relatively new and only came in 13 years ago.
So it surprises me that nobody thought about it, you know, in such a short space of time.
We are working with our panel. You know, I've got a really good deputy commissioner who will be able to step in and cover for me,
you know, in the vast majority of cases. And my panel have supported the plans that we are putting in place.
And we are looking to think about what should be in place for the longer term
for hopefully future PCCs,
recognising that we're kind of working our way through the legislation.
But we have done that.
But I think it's a case of we probably should have had a clearer guidance
from the beginning, really.
I'm going to bring Tim in here.
First of all, Tim, I have to say,
normally we're able to provide experts on any kind of issue, but it seems that there is no expert on this particular subject of PCCs. You're the closest we could get. It shows how long away we are from making it work. You're currently researching maternity leave provisions for other elected officials, MPs and ministers. Why had no one thought about PCCs before? Well, morning Anita, it's great to be here.
So I think part of it is, as Emily said, it is still a relatively new role. You know, they only
came in in 2012, I think. There were 41 of them overseeing each of the police forces in England
and Wales outside London. So it's a new role and there's a limited number. And I guess, yeah,
the situation just never arose before now. And the legislation that set up the role didn't do anything about this.
And actually, we've seen the same thing.
Obviously, there are more MPs and we've had MPs for longer.
But it's only sort of in the last 50 years or so that there have been a bulk of female MPs and of people who are women who are having babies so that the system in parliament has also kind of
evolved quite sort of in an ad hoc kind of making it up as we go a long way for that that period and
i think you know emily is as she's saying that the pcc system is at the start of that evolutionary
process it's interesting isn't it because you'd think that when they're setting out a job they
think of the spec and they think of all the terms and conditions and all of it and that just something as huge as parental leave, not even maternity, parental leave isn't
thought about. Absolutely. And I think it's because these roles are so unique, you know,
because they're elected office holders rather than employees, then they don't fall under the
kind of standard employment law that I have as an employee of the Institute of Government,
for example, and most people will have in their day-to-day jobs.
So as you said, the legislation that sets out these roles
is kind of focused on their powers and their abilities
and how they interact with different bits of the state
and government and so on,
and less about the benefits to the individual person doing the job.
So Emily, as well as taking on this new role and being pregnant,
you then had to think about what provisions you would put in place so you had to work it out for yourself yes essentially i think
it's interesting because you know tim's saying that obviously we're starting this journey with
the pcc role as we have done with other political roles i think the frustration for me is we should
have known this you know this was only introduced 13 years ago it wasn't out of the realm of
possibility that you would have a young woman who wanted to go off and have a start family at
some point um and indeed i have had male colleagues who have who had have had children but not had the
same kind of discussions so i think you know we're using what we've got as i say i've got a deputy
and she will come with me as much as possible but i think the the comment from the home office
this is a unique situation,
when actually we know women have been having babies for thousands of years,
and we know that we want more women in politics and policing
in these very male-dominated environments,
it's surprising to me that this wasn't something
that was thought about when the legislation was written
only 13 years ago.
Why wasn't it thought about, Tim?
I think because, yeah, as Emily says, I suppose,
you know, these are traditionally male dominated areas.
Perhaps there was no one was thinking about who would actually be doing these jobs.
I don't have the figures to hand, but I can imagine perhaps back when these elections first took place, there were more men elected as PCCs.
And so it wasn't it wasn't an issue. And again, you know, in Parliament, we're still a long way off 50-50 Parliament,
but there has been an increase in the proportion of women MPs. And so as there have been more
female MPs and more younger female MPs, the number of women wanting to take maternity leave
has increased. And so it's become more of an issue through Parliament.
So what are the rules for other elected officials? And can they be applied to PCCs?
So for MPs, there's a variety of different rules,
partly because it affects which part of their job you're talking about.
So only MPs can be in the Chamber of the House of Commons when it's sitting
and only people who are elected can be MPs.
So you can't have a direct replacement for that aspect of the role.
What they do on the votes in Parliament is they have proxy votes.
So another MP from their party will vote on their behalf. Then there's the kind of constituency facing side of the role. What they do on the votes in Parliament is they have proxy votes. So another MP from their party will vote on their behalf. Then there's the kind of constituency facing side
of the role where different MPs take different approaches. Some of them, Stella Creasy, a Labour
MP from London, she actually appointed a locum to cover for her kind of constituency side of things
while she was out on maternity leave. Others have kind of managed it with their staff. So their
staff will deal with
the inquiries from their constituents, or, you know, taken a few weeks off and then gone back
sort of more gradually. So it's very much up to them. With ministers, a couple of years ago,
there was a piece of legislation passed called the Ministerial Maternity Leave Act. And that was
because Suella Braverman, who at that point was Attorney General, wanted to go on maternity leave.
And there are various pieces of legislation that require there to be an Attorney General.
We have to have an Attorney General.
And so she couldn't just kind of fudge it and let her deputy take over.
There had to be someone who had that job title.
But they needed legislation to allow someone to take that on temporarily.
So another place where it's developing as women take on the role.
Emily, if you'd have known that the maternity provisions weren't there, would you have
applied for the role? Yes, I absolutely would have done. I'm really passionate about the work
that I'm doing and I think I'm making a really positive difference and I don't think it would
have ever stopped me. But I think, as I alluded to, this has been a long long journey for us this has been seven years of us trying to have a family so when I started
this journey of trying to get pregnant I wasn't in the role I was in now yeah so you know you kind
of have to go with the situation that you're in so um but I do know and I have spoken to other
colleagues and people who are thinking about standing for election for example for PCCs in
the future who actually have gone oh we didn't know that was an issue. And actually, I am thinking about starting a family.
So I think it could put other women off, you know, because they have to start trying to
make those choices around whether they can have a family or whether they do the political
role.
So it wouldn't have affected me, but I think it could affect others in the future, which
is the opposite of what we're trying to achieve.
Well, you are the trailblazer.
You are the one now setting the standard and figuring it out.
When's the baby due?
About four weeks, end of March.
And you intend to go back to work?
That's the hope. There are electors in May. So if I am successfully re-elected, then my hope is I will be back at work after that point, yeah.
Well, we want to wish you the best of luck. Thank you both for speaking to me on this issue emily spiral and tim durant um and you have been getting in touch with me about various things that you've heard on the program
mainly about the incredible interview with kelsey parker at the beginning of the program
what a remarkable woman she is and lots of you talking about your own experience of
losing partners and what to do with your wedding rings and alice said my husband died six years
ago when our boys were one and three i took the ring off my finger quite soon after he died as i Alice said, And Pam in East Yorkshire says, after 15 years, I still wear my rings and have no intention of removing them.
When or if to stop wearing them is totally personal decision and there is no right or wrong answer.
That's it from me. Enjoy the rest of your weekend and do join me tomorrow for Weekend Woman's Hour.
That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time.
Hi, I'm Marianna Spring, the BBC's disinformation and social media correspondent,
and I've learned firsthand that the online world can be a breeding ground for hate.
But why do some people behave the way they do on social media?
For BBC Radio 4, I'm meeting the people at the heart of some extraordinary online conflicts
to see if understanding, even forgiveness, is ever possible.
Listen to Why Do You Hate Me on BBC Sounds.
I'm Sarah Trelevan, and for over a year,
I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered.
There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies.
I started, like, warning everybody.
Every doula that I know.
It was fake.
No pregnancy.
And the deeper I dig,
the more questions I unearth.
How long has she been doing this?
What does she have to gain from this?
From CBC and the BBC World Service,
The Con, Caitlin's Baby.
It's a long story, settle in.
Available now.