Woman's Hour - Kelsey Parker, Ukraine's children, Black girls in education, Aisling Bea

Episode Date: February 24, 2024

It has been almost two years since the death of The Wanted star Tom Parker after he was diagnosed with an inoperable brain tumour in 2020 aged 33. His wife, Kelsey Parker, announced last month that, after a lot of reflection, it was time to take off her wedding rings. Kelsey tells Anita Rani about the decision and how she has dealt with her grief. The Ukrainian government says it has identified 20,000 children who have been abducted by Russian forces. This week saw 11 Ukrainian children reunited with their families. The BBC’s Hague Correspondent, Anna Holligan, and filmmaker Shahida Tulaganova, who directed the ITV documentary Ukraine’s Stolen Children, discuss. Wicked Little Letters is a new black comedy film set in Littlehampton in the 1920s. It follows two neighbours, deeply conservative Edith Swan played by Olivia Colman and rowdy Irish single mother Rose Gooding played by Jessie Buckley. When Edith and other residents begin to receive poisonous pen letters full of obscenities, potty mouthed Rose is charged with the crime. The director, Thea Sharrock joined Emma Barnett to discuss this true story, and the parallels with trolling on social media today. How do black girls and women experience education in Britain today? Sociologist Dr April-Louise Pennant of Cardiff University joined Emma to discuss why Black Caribbean girls are excluded from school at double the rate of white girls and why intersectionality means the issue of afro hair continues to affect black girls' education today. She explores these issues and more in her book, Babygirl, You’ve Got This! Experiences of Black Girls and Women in the English Education System. The comedy and acting star Aisling Bea grew up in County Kildare in Ireland and in 2011 became the first woman for 20 years to win the prestigious stand-up competition So You Think You’re Funny? She spoke to Emma about her latest show, Alice and Jack.Presenter: Anita Rani Producer: Dianne McGregor

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Anita Rani and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Good afternoon, welcome to Weekend Woman's Hour with me, Anita Rani. Coming up, the Ukrainian government says 20,000 children have been taken by Russian forces since the start of the invasion. We hear the latest on the ones who've been reunited with their families and those still in Russia. The English coastal town scandalised by obscenity-filled letters, we speak to the director of a new film called Wicked Little Letters,

an appraisal of how black women and girls experience education in Britain today, and Irish actor and comedian Aisling Bea on her latest TV series, Alice and Jack, where her character finds out she's second choice to her partner's ex. But first, Kelsey Parker's husband Tom, best known for being a pop star in the band The Wanted, died two years ago after he was diagnosed with an inoperable brain tumour in 2020, aged only 33. Throughout his illness, Tom spoke openly and honestly about his diagnosis and was involved in raising awareness and funding to highlight the impact of brain tumours, often with Kelsey by his side. After his death, she's continued his work.

Kelsey and Tom were together for 13 years and have two children. She announced last month that after a lot of reflection, it was time to take her wedding rings off. She came into the studio on Friday, and I started by asking her why now. When Tom went to the hospice and it was time for him to leave me, you know, we had this exchange where he put his wedding ring on my finger. So it was so important to me,

like our marriage and everything. But, you know, it's so hard because obviously how people react to it. But in this lifetime, I'm not married to anyone. Tom's no longer here. He's my husband. The wedding ring was just a symbol of our love. It doesn't mean our love. Like my love is endless for him

and it will never fade and it will never go anywhere but it's time for me especially this year I just feel a lot clearer and I can't make sense of it I probably had a haze and a bit of a brain fog for for you know what's going to be two years next month. But I just feel clearer. I feel like I can see this year and it's time to focus on me. I gave so much to Tom and I would never, ever change anything that I did for him. But as soon as he was diagnosed, you know, it was about Tom. So maybe this year I'm focusing more on me, which I need to do. Was it a slow process?

I mean, did you keep the rings on? Did you keep his ring on for the entire two years? And how did that make you feel for that time whilst you had them on? You know, it's bittersweet. I'd look down at my finger and be like, he's not here. How can I move forward with my life now that I've not got him? You know, I was with Tom since I was 19. I've only known my life with Tom.

I don't know what my life looks like now and i guess for me that was quite confusing so it's like we're married and you know we had the most amazing wedding i looked down at the wedding ring think oh the memories we had together but i'll always have their memories the wedding ring doesn't symbolize that it's in here isn't it and in my heart what have you done with them what will you do with them at the moment they're in a box because i don't know what to do with them. You know, I would like them for the kids. It's making a decision who gets what ring.

They're beautiful rings as well. So, you know, a lot of people have said, oh, why don't you melt them down and make them as one? But I'm like, place a stunning ring. I can't do that. And I know that the effort he went to to get that ring made for me as well. A couple of weeks ago on the programme here, we talked about Kate Garraway going back to work and she said the first time someone called her a widow,

knocking on the door, it was a delivery man and he called her a widow and it made her really think about the fact that that's how people will see her now. And I just wonder whether you remember being given that label for the first time. For me, it was when, you know, the paperwork side of things. That was really like, it's so hard to actually get your, you know, your paperwork in order. And then it was for me every time it's like, oh, you're a widow now, you're a widow now.

I was 31 and made a widow and two young children. You know, I never thought my life would look like this. And it's scary, you know, 31 and how people think look like this and it's scary you know 31 and how people think you should dress and look and be a widow it's like that's not me either and how are the children they're really good I'm so proud of of how they're doing every day we talk about Tom you know they're really obsessed with death at the moment and actually my mum dropped Aurelia to school this morning and they're going to be talking about families today and the teacher just flagged and said we're going to be talking about families and my mum went oh don't

worry Aurelia will be fine she'll get up and tell everyone that her dad's dead I don't want her to feel like you know it's an elephant in the room so how do you talk about it at home we're really honest and open and they are quite obsessed with death at the moment so uh Bodie's like oh when's my mum gonna come home She's not dead yet. And then Aurelia said, because when Tom actually passed, I said, I'm going to go and let the angels take daddy today. They're going to collect daddy

and we won't see daddy anymore. So she was saying to me the other night, oh, when the angels take me, what will happen to me? And, you know, I try and make it so she's not scared of death because I don't want her to think that, you know, it was an awful experience for her dad because it might not have been an awful experience

for her dad and I don't think it was I think he passed very peacefully and had a really nice death and I always talk about when I die I would like a death like Tom and I know that's really hard for people to listen to right now but he did have have a magical death. I just think, you know, I've become quite spiritual and it's made me think maybe when it's your time, it's your time. And I do think Tom had fought so hard and just came to the stage where he'd had enough and it was his time and his passing was so peaceful.

His breathing changed and he just went. But I always laugh because Tom was so scared to die. Like he was like, oh, I'm so scared. I'm like, it's fine. You're going to be fine. And when he passed over, I had this feeling that he probably was looking at me going, was that it? Was that it? I was worried about that because it was peaceful. Kelsey, this is something I just from knowing the stuff I know about you from seeing you on other things and reading about you even people listening to you talk or maybe experiencing that same thing is what struck me is your strength and your resilience even you saying that you were the one supporting him to say don't be scared when you had two little

children in fact you were 35 weeks pregnant when he was diagnosed so you had to give birth after you knew what was happening yeah that was traumatic Tom had just been diagnosed and and he was so scared and so frightened and it was almost like he was another child of mine because he was you know he'd just been given the news that he had a stage four cancer and also there's not a lot of funding and there's not a lot we can do you're going to have this radio and chemo you know when you're diagnosed you want that magic wand you want someone to go don't worry you've got stage four but you're gonna be all right we never got a prognosis and i was pregnant we were in covid i felt guilty when i was actually in labor because i wanted to be there

for tom and i thought for this right you've just got to get this baby out and literally he did come out like a rocket um but i was like i've got i've got to just get this baby out and then i'm back to tom and i said to the nurses as soon as i had bodie they were like do you want any pain relief i went nope i'm fine they're like i just can't believe that you're you're not even having anything i'm fine and i said and what's the earliest I can leave and there was like 5am because you've had like a nighttime baby you've got to stay in I was like right I'm leaving at five I'll have someone at the door because Tom had to go home and I was like you're going to radio and chemo that's it we've got to continue and that's how I think I've got

my strength you know I can look forward and push forward. Where does that come from? Just within. I think I've got it within me. And people ask me that all the time. And I don't know where it comes from, but I'm just strong. My mum's one of these people that just gets on with it. Whatever life throws at you, you've got to get on with it. And she said to me, even when Tom was diagnosed,

I remember ringing my mum, like, obviously distraught, because that's the person you go to. My mum was like, he's going to be fine. Don't worry about it. He's going to be fine. And I thought, my mum thinks he's going to be fine. That's it. We remain positive. And maybe it's that positive energy that I've got. I understand how people hit rock bottom with this.

And, you know, when Tom did die, I struggled to obviously get out of bed. For me, it was when he actually went into the hospice and I thought, this is it. That was my really hard period where I felt like someone had dropped a ton of bricks on me and I couldn't get out of bed. But again, I needed to get out of bed for him. I needed to be there for him. So what got you out? Him and being there and being strong and being there for my kids.

Like they were babies. They can't see me broken even though I was broken inside of course I was I had to pull myself together and get on with it and maybe that strength as you know with Kate Garrow she's gone back to work like I went back to work really quick but I know now that I was probably having an out-of-body experience I was just maybe looking down at my body going, you're still going, girl, you're still going. When did you realise that that's what was happening? Was there a process where you slowed down and actually gave yourself time to process what you'd been through? Do you know what? Probably over this Christmas. Yeah. You know,

I'm so proud of myself and I don't tell myself enough of how strong and great I actually am. And I know I should do that because, you know, as women, you should tell that. Even just being a mum and waking up for your kids in the morning, I know is a struggle. But to go through what I've been through and still be here and still be strong and still be present, I am proud of myself.

But I have had moments. Who do you pick the phone up to? Or don't you? If I am having a problem, I will ring everyone. And I've got the village mine and Tom's back door was always open people were always in our house we've always had the village and I think I couldn't have got through this

without my family, Tom's family we are a village You've always been positive though haven't you? You've always been the driving force even in the relationship you were so young when you got together he wasn't even famous at that point right? No I met him on his first night out in the band in a nightclub and

he was like oh yeah I'm a pop star I was like oh is that what he said well he's like I'm in a band I was like okay what's your band called he went oh no we've not got a name yet I was like okay what was it about him he was just everything and it's really weird again I'm I'm quite spiritual now and I maybe was always like this but I didn't know I saw Tom outside of a nightclub and grabbed my best friend who's also called Kelsey my best friend is called Kelsey grabbed Kelsey and went I'm in love with him she went what I mean no no no there's something about him I need to speak to him when I get into this nightclub and I've never felt like that about anyone but he had an energy and an aura and we were just literally drawn to each other when obviously we became like official and been together a long time everyone would you say to us

you are the boy and girl version of each other amazing we were actually boy and girl then weren't we I should say like now you're female but we were kids when we got together we've been through so much I only know like my life with Tom and so how has it been it's hard without him even making decisions even you know dropping the kids to school when they've got world book days coming up I would love to send him a picture and go oh look what Aurelia's wearing Bodie's doing amazing at his preschool I just would love to share but he's watching me he's with me I can feel. Now we've talked a lot about various choices that you're making and you said you processed things over Christmas and it takes time. We've talked a lot about grief on this programme as

well. And you met someone else and people feel that they had an opinion on that. So I want to talk a bit about the trolling, the negative side. I just think people are very entitled to opinions. And I guess I have shared my journey in a really raw, vulnerable way. You know, even meeting someone, that was part of my grief journey. At that time, I needed someone and it wasn't my friends and my family, it was someone else. But, you know, everyone deals with grief so differently and there's no right or wrong way. And who's anyone to judge? I would never judge anyone now because, you know, walk a day in my shoes and then come back to me

and then see if you could be judgmental. Well, when I was reading about that, I thought, I wonder if people would have the same opinion if it was a widowed man moving on. Would people say the same thing if a man had met someone? It just crossed my mind. I don't think they do. I think it's OK for a man to need his dinner cooked

and need affection and love. It's not OK for a woman, and I don't understand why. Why is that different? Like what I said, what my friends and family gave me was everything, but I needed more. I don't know what it was. You know, and I'd been there for Tom yeah for so long and fought for him you don't need to justify it no I know no I mean not here I mean

say what you want but you don't you know but how do you then cope with that on top of everything else the public having an opinion on you and your personal life I need to focus on my kids and I don't really care what anyone maybe that's why I'm so resilient I don't actually care what people think about me I'm living my life and that's it and if you like what I said walk in my shoes then come back to me and see if you do anything different what a remarkable woman and lots of you got in touch in response to that interview with Kelsey Parker Laura said I was so moved by Kelsey's vibrant, positive sharing of her remarkable experience dealing with death. Our own stories of family tragedies bear witness to much of what she

went through and I applaud her willingness to speak loud and proud about her story. Thank you for introducing her and letting us hear her spirit. Kath said, my husband Andy died in August 2019. It was only this summer I had his and my wedding rings put together to make a new combined ring. I love it. When our rings were at the jewellers, I went to a poetry event and applauded a poem by clinking my ring finger against my wine glass. Felt incredibly emotional when there was no ting of gold against glass. And another texter said, I think Kelsey is so brave. I lost my husband last year and I have had people being so nasty about the fact I'm dating again. Although I still wear my wedding rings, I've also told my new partner that, yes, I'm still in love with John and I always will.

Good luck, Kelsey. And if there's anything you wish to contact us about, you can email us via our website or on social media. It's at BBC Woman's Hour. Now, today marks two years since Russia began its full-scale invasion of Ukraine. At least 10,000 Ukrainian civilians, including more than 560 children, have been killed since the start of the war, according to figures from the United Nations

Human Rights Monitoring Mission as of December. However, it's widely believed that the real number is a lot higher. Ukraine's government says it's identified 20,000 children who've been abducted by Russian forces. Ukrainian officials report that children were forcibly separated from their families, taken across the border into Russia, and have faced efforts to strip them of their Ukrainian identity.

Russia denies the accusation and says it has protected vulnerable children by moving them from a war zone for their own safety. This week, it was reported that Qatar had brokered a deal to release 11 children. They crossed the border from Belarus to Ukraine on Tuesday night and were reunited with family members. Emma spoke to the award-winning filmmaker and war correspondent Shahida Tluganova. Shahida directed the ITV documentary Ukraine's Stolen Children. But first, the BBC Hague correspondent

Anna Holligan. Some of them were there reunited with distant family members. Others were actually, two children were rushed to hospital. Their condition looks as though it may have been serious, although we don't know what's wrong with them. Another one

was reunited, a 13. Another one was reunited. A 13-year-old boy was reunited with his mother, who had been held prisoner in Mariupol. So, you know, there's so much bleak news coming from this area at the moment. It's really incredible to see these images of the children being reunited with their families. Do we know anything more about these children who've gone across? We know a little bit more about their ages. So there's a 13 year old and a 10 year old.

They were living with distant relatives in Mariupol again. And then it looks as though they were taken into a state children's home and then transferred to Russia. So they were reunited, I'm looking at the picture now, with their uncle, a computer developer called Sergei. Unlike the thousands of other children who we are told have been transferred across the border, some of them from children's homes, some of them because they were taking part in holiday camps when the war broke out and have since found it impossible to go home. And I'm based in The Hague and I cover war crimes and crimes against humanity. And this is a new kind of war crime that we are witnessing here, according to the ICC,

the International Criminal Court, which has issued charges against the Russian president, Vladimir Putin and his children's rights commissioner. And she is a really interesting character in all of this because she is Maria Lvova Polova. And she is the kind of antithesis of what you might expect from a quintessential warlord. She delivers babies and balloons rather than bombs and bullets. She appears on her social media channels wearing flowy, flowery dresses instead of military fatigues. And yet what she and what President Putin are accused of are war crimes just as atrocious and heinous as murder and rape. Let me bring you in at this point, Shahida. Just because we were hearing there about the Russian politician

and presidential commissioner for children's rights, you've actually interviewed her. I did indeed. And how did you find her in light of what we've just heard about her? Well, she clearly doesn't look like a war criminal. She does look like a person who is caring about all the children in Russia and now occupied parts of Ukraine. She's very well briefed. She's very precise.

When she lies, she looks in your eyes and she lies. And you know that she lies. Some things she says, this is true. But like all Russian governmental officials, she is very glued on what's happening. And she does know what's happening. Because she also, just keeping it with the children and that side of things for a moment, is it right that she's adopted a boy, a Ukrainian teenager? She fostered a Ukrainian teenager from Mariupol called Filip Golovnya.

He was in a group of 31 children from Mariupol who were snatched by the Russians. Did you see him? I saw him. I interviewed him too. It was hard. It was hard. You could see the transformation of the child

when he came to Russia. He was filmed a lot and showed a lot on Russian television. He was very skinny. Now he's very big, which could show that he's under stress. He seemed content. But when I asked him, do you want to go back to Mariupol? He said, no, I'm not going to go back because there's no city is about people and there is no people anymore. So I mean, in your documentary, which we talked about, you know,

five women, mothers and guardians go to Russia to try to retrieve missing children. Is there any update? We're getting this one, obviously, overnight and hearing about that. Have you got any updates from the women you were talking to? All the women I spoke to, they brought their children back. But in the film, there was one case of a boy called Denis Kostev, who actually stayed in Russia, allegedly willingly, even though his godmother went all the way to Moscow to get him back.

But she was deported. And he later sent a voice message to his brother saying, I'm staying. I love it here. Actually, in December last year, he contacted me saying that he wants to leave Russia. He's already 18. So together with volunteers from Save Ukraine, this is a charity which brings a lot of Ukrainian children back. We helped him to get out of Russia to Belarus and from Belarus to Poland. He is now waiting for

his Ukrainian documents to come through and then he's going to go to Germany to reunite with his grandmother and his brother. Wow. That's incredible. Yeah. I actually went to Poland to see him for the first time. He's a really nice boy, very well read. But like many children who stayed in Russia for a long time, he was there for almost two years. He didn't become pro-Russian, but his ideas about the war and who is aggressor changed a little bit. Anna, coming back to you,

as we reach this very grim milestone of two years of this fighting and this war, what do you understand or what have your contacts been saying to you about what Russia's objective could be in taking these children as it's being described and what you've been reporting on? Well, it depends from whose perspective. So the Russians will say they're saving these children, the adoptions, the fostering, their acts of generosity. We should be really clear, Emma, here about what we're talking about. These are allegations of state-sponsored child kidnapping, forcible transfer, not by chance or accident, but by design. And whether or not these

children have parents or they've been put into care because their parents are struggling or killed during the war, raising children of another country in a different culture, in a different nation, can be a hallmark of genocide, an attempt to erase the very identity of that enemy nation. And the First Lady of Ukraine, Elena Zelenska, says she believes the removal of children to Russia was part of a deliberate attempt to erase Ukrainian culture and identity. And there are other glimmers of hope in all of

this, though, because we were covering a couple of weeks ago efforts by Europol, a European police agency. They got together detectives from all over Europe. I think it was 60 detectives from 23 countries. And they took part in something called a hackathon. And they didn't really expect to get many results. But actually, they were using some of the propaganda, which has been used by Russia in videos where they show children smiling at holiday camps, carrying cuddly teddy bears, well-dressed, wearing the kind of jewelry you and I might dress our children in. So they were able to use facial recognition and then geolocate these children. And they actually managed to track down eight of them using the kind of telephone data and all of this open source investigation, digital investigation techniques we're familiar with now.

So I think more and more we're going to start to see that kind of thing happening. And especially now the International Criminal Court has lodged these charges. And I think another thing to note that's interesting about the fact that that's where the ICC prosecutor has focused his attention is because that's where the evidence has led them as being the place where they are most likely to get prosecutions because the Russian state, the Russian president, as we were hearing there, the Children's Rights Commissioner, they have publicised this. They have made no secret of moving these children, although they say that if the parents want to, they can simply send an email and come and retrieve them.

But as we've just been hearing there, it's not exactly that simple. No, far from it. Shahida, to come back to you, the idea of Qatar brokering these deals, you might hear that and think you may know nothing about international relations, but you may think, why Qatar? What's going on there? It's a mystery, a mystery to a lot of people I speak to, to Ukrainian journalists, to human rights lawyers in Ukraine who deal with the children who abducted. We don't understand what's going on with Qatar. And I don't understand exactly what they're brokering. But apparently they were asked by the Russians and by the Ukrainians to help.

And that's what they're doing. About the return of these 11 children. It's great that this is the largest group so far. Although tiny compared to the numbers. Tiny compared, but it's a little bit of a progress. Let's put it this way. Maria Lvova-Bilova made a huge deal of publicity out of this return, saying that they're working according to the order of the president of Putin to reunite families. However, she failed to explain why some of the children ended up in Siberia in the foster care, why children were taken from occupied Donetsk, Lugansk

regions, and who were these parents or relatives. We don't know anything about these children. Two kids were from Simferopol at occupied Crimea, which suggests good news that when Russians were leaving Kherson region from occupation in summer 2022, they took the whole baby orphanage with them and moved it to Crimea. So these two kids who were returned now were taken in ambulances. These were the kids from this baby orphanage, which the story was well publicized in Western media and in Ukraine as well.

And I was hoping that they will start returning these kids because these kids are with a lot of disabilities. So finally, things are moving, which is a progress, but it is still a long way to go. The process of returning Ukrainian children should be absolutely transparent. There should be one legal mechanism to do it, which is not happening at the moment.

Everything which is happening is very haphazard, ad hoc, volunteer-based, and we don't know exactly what is happening behind the scenes. When we're talking about babies, the really heartbreaking thing is every day it becomes harder to trace them because these are children who in a few years' time might not know their birth name. So how at that point will it even be possible to trace them and bring them home? Because they will have entirely new identities. And this has come from the top because President Putin made it easier for Russian families to adopt Ukrainian children. He changed the law, signed a presidential decree, and that was in May 2022.

So that makes it even harder for Ukrainians to get their children back. And they've also done various other things, created other incentives for the children, for families. They've prepared a database identifying Russian families who might be suitable to adopt Ukrainian children, pays them an allowance for each child who gets citizenship. Then many of the children are given patriotic, in inverted commas, education. And so all of this is kind of severing the ties that they had with their homeland. The BBC's Anna Holligan and filmmaker and war correspondent Shahida Tilaganova speaking with Emma there.

Remember, you can enjoy Woman's Hour any hour of the day. If you can't join us live at 10 a.m. during the week, all you need to do is subscribe to the daily podcast for free via bbc sounds now 2024 is a leap year and next week the 29th of february is the day when traditionally women propose to their male partners did you propose to your partner in a leap year or was it another time how did you go about it and what was the response we'd love to hear from you, and men too. Were you proposed to? You can get in touch via our website or on social media at BBC Woman's Hour. Now to a new film, Wicked Little Letters,

is a black comedy set in Littlehampton, West Sussex in the 1920s. It follows two neighbours, deeply conservative Edith Swan, played by Olivia Colman, and rowdy Irish single mother Rose Gooding, played by Jessie Buckley. When Edith and other residents begin to receive poisonous pen letters full of obscenities, potty-mouthed Rose is charged with the crime. The anonymous letters prompt a national uproar and a trial ensues. It's based on a true story and Emma spoke to the film's director, Thea Sharrock. It is based on a true set of

letters absolutely that's probably the most important thing about the movie about sort of 80 percent of the of the actual letters are used in the film. Olivia's character Jesse's character and the character of Gladys Moss who who is the very important police officer, first female police officer. All three of those characters are based on real people, which is sort of amazing. We, of course, have made certain changes to make the story more interesting and more entertaining. So as soon as I knew Jessie Buckley could join us in the cast, I wanted to make Rose Irish. So she wasn't originally. But otherwise, her story is she's a single mum who moves into this very small town. And even that on its own is scandalous,

up against the very restrained Swan family. Yes. And I suppose knowing what you know know then of what is accurate to that time, how did you come across these letters? How were they found? And I suppose in some way that must have really drawn you to it, that it's based on truth. Absolutely. I was given the script originally not knowing that it was based on a true story.

Okay. And I honestly have not laughed out loud for quite a while with a script that was as well written and as tightly written as this. The thing I couldn't quite gauge when I first read it was the tone of it because I didn't quite understand what you said, black comedy, which is interesting. Some people describe it purely as a comedy. But there is a lot going on underneath it.

And these characters are very, very complex. So I met with the writer, Johnny Sweet, who is a comedian originally, which made sense of the comedy and learned that he had come across the story of these poison pen letters and that that was a massive thing 100 years ago. Which, of course, the parallels to today are very obvious. And couldn't believe that this story hadn't really surfaced in some bigger format. And so he was inspired to write the story. And as soon as I read it, Olivia was already attached. And I couldn't begin to say no. I mean, it was a dream come true.

Can you imagine writing such a letter? I'm pleased to say I can't. I thought you were going to ask me something to do with, again, today. Which I want to come to, but it's just the idea of trying to get yourself into, you know, you've been looking at this and how to bring the characters out and put it together, but just trying to get yourself into a headspace where you would sit down. Because even though we'll come to it, I'm sure,

talking about what people do online now, it's much quicker and easier than sitting down and writing a lesson. Absolutely. And that's what's so amazing about them. Some of them were incredibly short, two sentences, and vile. Others, the ones that really make me laugh, are the ones that you can feel they're trying to be rude. And it's almost like a little kid who sort of gets in a massive huff with his mum and is like, oh, I hate you!

And it's got that sort of childish quality behind it. And yet still, as you say, in those days, if you wanted to insult somebody, you had to get your piece of paper, had to get your pen out, choose your words carefully, fold it up, get a stamp, put it in the in the postbox. And, you know, there's a lot of effort that goes into it. And obviously nowadays, that's one of the things that's so different. There was in those days plenty of time to change your mind. Nowadays, maybe at most, people write a draft email that they want to send in an absolute rage, come back to it an hour later and you might have changed your mind. But I think today's society, one of the sort of drawbacks is this sort of instantaneous world that we live in that was very very different then it's interesting to think which is more

poisonous to receive that in the post nowadays is would be huge partly because people don't do that anymore what's interesting although it's it's very funny and there's all those elements to it, that you can see how upset, you can see the upset on people's faces when they receive it. You know, putting aside the views of if it was a woman swearing or not, you know, and I think if more people could actually see how people looked when they received a nasty remark below their Instagram post or on social media, wherever. You know, maybe it would give you pause for thought. Well, would it?

I don't know. No, I know. And that's the issue. Absolutely. Olivia Colman isn't on social media. I don't think Jessie is either. They're not on Instagram. They don't.

Nor am I. And Olivia is very vocal about having been hurt by something somebody once said many years ago. And it's very painful. What they do for a living is very vulnerable making. And it's can be incredibly hurtful. And it's the you know, sometimes you have to ask the question. And again, as parents, I'm sure you have this too. I've had many conversations with other mums, other dads, and with kids about what it is behind somebody else wanting to hurt somebody else, what that's about. And it's one thing to do that with a five-year-old at school. It's completely understandable. It becomes much more complex as people get older and are much more in charge of that choice. Are you not on social media because you also receive something and you thought maybe this isn't worth it? For me, it's more to do with the time that it takes that I see what it sucks up in people's lives, if I'm honest. But yeah, instinctively, I don't like that aspect to it.

I have two teenage kids and neither one of them post things either. And somebody asked me yesterday about whether, is that a direct influence from me? I don't know. I've never said you're not allowed to. I don't live in that sort of household. But I've certainly seen teenagers get incredibly upset. And it's just so affecting.

And it's so quick. It's so easy to do. I don't actually think I've said this before, but I had a thing when I was on maternity leave. I came back in September where I got a really horrible message from a woman. And I saw it. And it was a whole judgment. I posted one for, I barely posted while I was on maternity leave and I saw it and it was a it was a whole judgment I posted one for I barely posted while I was on maternity leave I only usually use it for work

and I I posted this photo and I was going to a museum and I was on my own and I'd have got my sunglasses on and I you know I sort of thought right I'm a little bit back out there again and it was one of those sorts of I'm going to see this exhibition I had to share if I'm seeing something interesting and promote people's work, you know, as well, you know, to have that creative moment. But it was also, I'm out the house. It was as simple as that. I'm having a moment for myself.

And she said, you need to look at yourself for people who do not have your privileges to wear nice clothes. It was like a really pointed, and you know, you've just had a baby. Where's the baby? It was a whole comment, right? And how did it leave you feeling?

And I felt so, actually, I did something I never do I wrote back did you I never do that and I rarely look at the comments and just to say and did you do that publicly or did you do that privately no I did it privately okay and I wrote because I have more followers than she will in the position I'm in and I'm aware of that platform and I wrote back and I said just so you know I think I even said the blaze is from Zara it's 20 years old and cost 15 quid not that I need to justify you said you look very nice and people don't have your situation and I sort of went and it's my first time out and I'm really excited and I don't really know what I've done here but I just wanted to message you to say that that wasn't particularly fair whatever I said you know

and I'm not quite sure what what's going on here but I hope you're okay. And she wrote back and said, I'm really, really sorry. I'm really sorry. I shouldn't have done that. I'm having a really bad day. And I feel ashamed of myself. And then we had an okay exchange. And that was that. And I don't do it. But to do it just once, because I thought it was so mean. I thought, well, can I try and unpack that? So here's my question to you is if she had sent the, because presumably the first message she sent you was public for all the world to see, any of the followers to see. If she'd sent you that privately, would that have made you feel different? I think I'd still be pretty upset, but funnily enough, I may not have replied.

Right. It may have changed that, you know, maybe just trying to attack me in a, but to do it there, there was obviously something going on and you can't, I can't do that every time Right. So that's why I get why people are not on there. Totally. And that's exactly why I'm not on there. But what's interesting for me is the difference between making it public and keeping it private. Whereas, as I say, one letter to one person, you're in a different sphere. It's probably also years of being judged by critics. And that's something that is inbred within my industry, always has been. And it's really hurtful when somebody says,

I don't like this production for X, Y and Z, particularly if they single you out, it's even worse. Emma speaking to the director of Wicked Little Letters, Thea Sherrick, and it's in cinemas now. Someone got in touch off the back of hearing that and said, listening to your feature on Poison Pen Let letters has taken me right back to the time i received an unpleasant letter from two girls i was on holiday with in the 70s our families used to hang out i enjoyed their company and i thought we were friends we all had a good time together so to receive a letter after the holiday listing all my bad faults i was shy i was ugly i dressed badly etc was devastating. I was 12. I thought they liked

me. I'm now 60 and I now know they wanted to be unkind but the shame and shock of receiving such a letter out of the blue has never left me. Now how do black women and girls experience education in Britain today? That's what the sociologist Dr April Louise Pennant of Cardiff University has been looking at. She uses her own experiences and that of her four years of research hearing the stories of black women and girls from around England. The most recent Department of Education figures collated by Agenda Alliance, the feminist campaigning group, show that in the academic year 21 to 22, girls from black Caribbean backgrounds were excluded from school at double the rate of white British girls. Emma began by asking April about those exclusion figures. Firstly, even though we're a big group, there's differences in terms of Black Caribbean experiences,

Black African experiences and so on. But I will also say that it links to this idea of adultification, right? The idea that, based on a report by Janine Davis, that, you know, Black children in particular, especially Black girls, are not afforded the protection. Their innocence is taken away, they're seen as older, and therefore they're not protected or safeguarded within educational spaces in particular. And this leads to also the ways in which Black girls are perceived, right, being

unruly, having attitude, you know, having to be basically managed more harsher in order to get them to fit in in these spaces. So it leads to huger issues around the stories behind these statistics and the ways in which black girls and women in educational spaces are not treated equally or fairly. And the idea of adultification came up greatly in a very high profile story, the individuals only referred to as Child Q, the assault on the black schoolgirl, just to remind our listeners, and what you know, what happened to her? Tell us a bit about that and how that fits in.

Yeah, so in my book, I talk about different experiences after speaking to around 42 black girls and women. And the idea of how black girls and women are positioned as unruly was some of my findings, right? So the idea that, you know, they're labelled, they're treated differently and more harsher so in the case of child Q you know she was assumed to smell of weed and therefore needed to be strip searched even though she was on her period right and it wasn't like appropriate adults with her so she was completely not handled with care protection

by the police I was just going to say by the police. Yes, but also that was allowed by the staff in the school, right? So I think this just leads also to intersectionality, the idea of how devalued identities such as gender and race, which can also expand to class, can come together and essentially make

the plight and experiences of black girls and women invisible and just show how they have these difficult and often traumatic experiences and are not protected. And I mean, there's a message that just came in interestingly as well. I know you've been trying to distinguish as well with experience that you're talking about. I hope you distinguish reads this message from one of listeners, between black and mixed race girls as well. Because, you know, a lot of people will say there's differences. I don't know what you'd say to that. I definitely agree.

I did have some mixed race participants that participated, but it was mostly about black girls. And the same way there's differences between Caribbean and African, there's also differences between mixed race, dark skinned black women and so forth. And what are some of the examples that are going to stick with you that you think from these years

of research our listeners should hear? Well, I think the idea of hair, that's been a big thing within educational spaces, right? The way in which it's perceived to be unprofessional or perceived to be against all uniform policies,

you know, whether it's in its afro form or even if it's braided or in my case I wore ribbons one day to school and it was seen as you know signaling gang affiliation which was very odd particularly where the school was right so these just these associations and the way in which you know it's essentially upholding Eurocentric standards of beauty Eurocentric standards of acceptance and what is right and how basically just being and existing as a black woman or girl is perceived to be in opposition. On that example, which for you, you've actually got quite a unique vantage point, having gone through some of the state school system and the private school system. I mean, I know, again, it's specific to those institutions and you, but what would you say you can draw from that?

Well, I think my experience in both the private and state sector and the English education system from primary school all the way to PhD level, it opened up my eyes, especially when doing my research and being trained, to see how based on your class, based on your gender, based on your race and ethnicity, it kind of determines what access you have to different kind of schools, different kind of educational institutions, as well as your experiences within them. Good and bad. Right. But it also showed as well the importance of having knowledgeable parents, resources such as your cultural identity, your confidence, your pride in self, which can also help to navigate the whiteness of the education system, regardless of where it is you are attending. Because we should say that sometimes, and I don't know if you think this,

that the focus can be on what's happening to black boys, also on white boys. But do you worry that there isn't the focus on girls? That is a big thing, right? A lot of the British educational research, even though there's been more recent studies focused on black girls, but it's focused on black boys or America, and black girls have been basically left under the radar. And while this is important because Black boys are struggling,

Black girls are actually not doing as much better. And there's also other things there, such as mental health, like wellbeing, you know, this externalised and internalised pressure, all these different nuances which come together based on anti-Black gendered racism and classism. What are you hoping to achieve with this piece of work? Well, as the name of the book is Baby Girl, you've got this.

It's meant to be about empowerment. It's meant to be about affirmation. It's meant to be about centering alternative perspective of something that we all go through, right? I use the analogy of a 26-mile marathon to show that the education system in itself requires a lot of practice, a lot of understanding and stamina. But actually, for black girls and women,

we're running a 26-mile steeplechase where we're jumping over multiple hurdles of racism, classism, sexism, as well as having to navigate with our own resources, which are just not accepted. It's a great great title maybe we'll get to that in a moment but do you think the way if you're listening to this and you're you're a parent and you're trying to think how to prepare your daughter if they if they relate to this that you should say this sort of stuff to them or let them go in and navigate do you have to kind of pre-warn, do you think, and pre-educate

as to what the steeplechase, to keep your metaphor going, may entail? Of course. Unfortunately, it's a reality for many black girls and women, my personal experiences as well as many others, right? The education system inherently has many inequalities. It's embedded in classism, it's embedded in racism, it's embedded in sexism. And when that all comes together, it creates a completely unique experiences for Black girls and women,

as well as other marginalised communities. So with this book, I'm saying this is what it is. This is how we need to change it to create social justice for all. But particularly for Black girls and women, this is how you can navigate so that you can thrive, as well as thinking of other solutions to make it better for future generations. And baby girl? You've got this. Yeah, that's the name. Why did we go for that? Why did you go for that? Well, it's affirmation, right? It's what I used to talk to my black girlfriends. And it's a pep talk for myself, right? When you feel you can't do it, when there's loads of barriers that you have to overcome which you don't even know you are overcoming

until you've finished and look back, you've got this. We've had this for generations. We've been doing it continuously and we will continue to do it regardless of the obstacles. Dr April Louise Pennant talking to Emma there. Now, the comedian and actor Aisling B grew up in county kildare

in ireland and in 2012 she became the first woman for 20 years to win the prestigious so you think you're funny competition for new stand-ups her bafta winning sitcom this way up firmly established her as a presence on our tv screens she played the lead in the film based on take that's greatest days and she regularly pops up in US shows and Hollywood films. Her latest project is Alice and Jack on Channel 4, which stars Andrea Rysborough and Donal Gleeson. She plays Lynn, who finds out she's second choice to her partner's ex, which can be a moment sometimes for people.

Yes, it's been an interesting reaction. The show is set over the course of 14 years where Alice and Jack come in and out of each other's lives. And in that time, he meets me, Lynn, and we I didn't have a partner, I met Jack about two weeks afterwards, actually. But the idea that you're dating and you're putting your heart out there and you just hope when you meet someone that they're probably in the same place. Because you don't know for most of dating someone at the start if they are actually invested. You put on a performance of a date in a restaurant, in a in the next day and nice sundays walking around together and um and then life gets in the way and um so lynn my character's journey is sort of finding out that all was not as it seemed and that while i thought i had all of him i actually didn't type of thing but he had all of me

and i think that heartbreak is um something probably a lot of people relate to or from like the little messages I've been getting in. I've been quite surprised by, now I didn't write the show, it was written by Victor Levin who wrote Mad Men and stuff like that. But I've been quite interested by the reaction of people who were like, oh, I was the Lynn.

And I kind of find that a beautiful bit of like heartbreaking bit in life that like you might be the B character in a TV show, but you're the main character in your own version of that. And I've always been fascinated, even when I write my own stuff, of the person on the side who doesn't become the TV show or doesn't become the lead in the movie character because theirs is a more angsty sort of messy soup of emotions. Well, also you're tackling there being the second choice. Yes. And how you cope with that. Yes. And whether that is just life,

like whether this idea that we should be, I should have been the first princess the prince ever gave a ring to is sort of maybe some old crazy idea that we have. But life doesn't work out like that. And the relationships take work. And we all, the older you get, the more baggage you come, but also the more lessons you've learned and the more information you have about yourself as well.

Like you have a bit more of a mission statement when you fall in love or find someone older. And so, yeah, when I was kind of like looking at Lynn, one thing I loved about her, which I don't know if it would totally be me, would be a real knowing inner steel rod in her that says, no, I'm nobody's consolation prize or second choice.

I do not want that life. Whereas there's a lot of people, and this is also a fine choice where you're like, I know I'm second choice and I'm fine with that. There are other areas in my family, in my career where I I want to be first but here it doesn't have to be that well it reminds me of Jolene I just took yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah do you know what I referenced Jolene the other day actually because but with Jolene she is happy to be second choice yeah please don't take my man yeah and she's like please I'm happy with second choice just don't

let him leave me whereas Lynn my character and this is like I'm please, I'm happy with second choice. Just don't let him leave me. Whereas Lynn, my character in this is like, I'm begging you, I'm walking away. Don't follow me. I'm so happy you did that, not me. I leaned into your version. But I would pay a lot of money to see yours, Emma. I feel, though, it's amazing that she does that idea of not letting that define you or negate your self-worth.

And I think, you you know how to keep going with things when we're sold of course an era of being happy all day every day is the goal. And it's not human and I'm always bolstered by other people's stories like you know if you're having a fight with your partner and someone goes oh yeah my fella does that or my wife does that all the time or my partner does that and it's actually especially if they're relationships you really believe in from the outside you're like oh my god that is so nice to hear and you're not going around looking for terrible stories it's just so nice to know that behind doors things aren't lovely all the time and things take work and they're hard and they're smelly at times and life is odd. How smelly is yours? Very, very unsmelly but like the idea of life isn't gorgeous and it's sometimes it's

toilets and meals and dishes. Actually most of the time it is and then the other bits are glorious that you'd kind of turn up for. The sort of montage is what you stay for but the main bits of the movie are the graft of it. And I think there's been a real trend in television even towards shows that show that because you're like, oh, thank God,

I can breathe out. I am actually normal rather than this sort of like, and then the next thing you know, we were just perfect together and I'd met my other half. I'm like, no, I don't have another half.

I'm all the bits, the messy bits all fit in my jigsaw so they have to be someone who sort of sits beside your own jigsaw I think Well it's what goes on around the kitchen table isn't it? Yes and I think that's why people love there's a lot of I think snobbery

around reality TV and I understand the madness of how fake it actually reality can be but also our own realities can be quite fake in terms of what we present on Instagram to our friends at dinner parties and I love watching reality TV but a lot of it is our fascination with what goes on behind people's doors and that we clearly don't know enough or are worried about our own when we're so obsessed with like oh my god look at that wealthy famous

person in Beverly Hills she also has trouble like looking after her kids. Great. Just, you know, getting a wealthy home in Beverly Hills isn't going to take it away. Thank God that's actually normal. You grew up surrounded by women, didn't you? Yes, yes. A total matriarch. Total matriarch. So I didn't actually know I was one because it was an all female environment. It was just my mother, my sister and me. We lived in the middle of nowhere. My mother has seven sisters and a very like a like a bulshy great granny. I went to an all girls school until I was 18. We only had female teachers. I think there was one put upon.

There was one put upon male vice principal in the secondary school at one point. And he was always like, I'm just trying like going, I'm just trying my best. I'm just always trying my best. I got love when he was really kind. But like, so I didn't know that wasn't how the world was and it was such a shock to get to university and to kind of

be speaking and like expect to be quiet or anything like that. I was like, I don't think so. So yeah, it definitely, going back, I wouldn't have changed it. I do love what it gave me. And I do have a real don't sound like the the wealth of people I know I get so intensely angry and frustrated by it when I see kind of like the same two or three characters crop up as if they're not all of the people I grew up and knew with all of their idiocies and brilliance and all the rest of it I'm like who what how did you manage to pick the same three people over and over again for these rom-coms or sitcoms or dramas

where it's, you know, sort of the nun, the sexy one or the sort of like, whoopsie. I just, we're all of those people all the time. And if you actually write how women talk and how a lot of women talk to each other, it's complicated and very different. It gets deep and silly. You know, all of that range, which you look at, don't you? And going forward, I've been very lucky that I've found myself, when I work on scripts where I'm playing a character and there's no room for making it nuanced,

I get very frustrated. And when I'm allowed, like even on Alice and Jack, Victor really let me make the character my own. So it wasn't like the kind of Jolene-esque character, kind of the kind of like, oh, the man's left me. Like I wanted her to make her be someone

we all know or are. So when you see her on screen, you're like, oh God, that could have been me if I'd met the person who loved someone else. And that it feels like a whole person with a whole backstory and I love any actor or writer or who shows characters and I have a lot of my writing friends have this as well where you know when you see a side character like oh god I'd love to see their spin-off show that means the writer's

done a brilliant job and given an actor a good day at work because I always feel really guilty if you bring an actor on for two lines I hope they're a good two lines that they feel they're getting to do their art you know what I mean and I've been the person coming on for two lines and you're like I think this person had a lot of trauma and they're like no they're just putting the tea down on the table and then walking away saying thank you and you're like yeah I would have loved to have seen you do that role with the trauma and the tea and a nervous shaking thing going here is your tea don't ask me about it and then walking away. Aisling B having a good laugh with Emma there. That's all from me do join Emma from Monday at 10am she'll be talking to the historian Mary Beard about a new exhibition at the British Museum

which has some incredible insights into the life of women. And if you're having a moment this weekend just remember baby girl you got this. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. I'm Sarah Treleaven and for over a year I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy.

And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story. Settle in. Available now.