Woman's Hour - Kesha, Kissing, Holly Smale on The Cassandra Complex, 'Depp v Heard' series, Manisha Tailor, assistant head of coaching at QPR

Episode Date: May 19, 2023

The American singer/songwriter Kesha’s first major success came in 2009 when she was featured on rapper Flo Rida's number-one single "Right Round". She’s since had two number one albums and nine top ten singles including Tik Tok, We R Who We R, "Your Love Is My Drug," "Die Young, and "Timber" with Pitbull. She has earned two GRAMMY nominations. Today she releases her latest album – Gag Order. She joins Anita to discuss the themes of love, anxiety and spiritual awakening.In a new study out today, scientists have suggested that humans kissing may have started 4,500 years ago in the ancient Middle East – that’s 1,000 years earlier than previously thought.  Anita finds out more from the scientist Dr Sophie Lund Rasmussen from the University of Oxford.The best selling author of the Geek Girl series, Holly Smale, was diagnosed as autistic in 2021, at the age of 39. She said she felt relief that she now has an explanation for why she’s felt she’s never “fitted in”. She couldn’t herself anywhere. She needed to see herself in a book, so she wouldn’t feel so alone. Holly has now written her first adult fiction – the highly autobiographical, The Cassandra Complex. She joins Anita to explain why it’s important to her that autism is represented in the media.Anita is joined by another one of the women on our Power List celebrating 30 women in sport. Manisha Tailor is the Assistant Head of Coaching at Championship club Queen's Park Rangers and is the first woman to hold such a position in men's professional football in England. Manisha is also the founder of Swaggarlicious, an organisation that uses community football sessions to engage with minority groups including women and girls, and especially those with mental health challenges. ‘Depp vs Heard’ is a three part C4 series that charts the tumultuous defamation trial between Johnny Depp and his former wife Amber Heard that was broadcast live in full. Mixing courtroom footage with the reaction from the millions who viewed it online, it’s a story of twists and turns. And questions if a jury ever be truly fair in the age of social media? The BAFTA-nominated documentary director Emma Cooper, joins Anita from Los Angeles.Presenter: Anita Rani Producer: Louise Corley

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Anita Rani and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Good morning. We are discussing the ancient art of kissing. New research suggests that lip-locking was invented 4,500 years ago. I'll be finding out more shortly. But this morning, as the weather is warming up and we might be shedding the winter blues, let's hear your first kiss stories. When was it? Who was it? And most importantly, how was it? Let's reminisce this morning. Gonna make you all think about making out, as they say in America, or as we more brilliantly put it, snogging.

Hopefully, it'll make you smile, or maybe not. Maybe your first kiss makes you grimace. Whatever the memory, type it out, send it over to me. There's various ways of doing it. You can text me on 84844, you can email me via our website, or you can WhatsApp me on 03700 100 444. And of course our social media is at BBC Woman's Hour. And of course, best kiss stories also welcome also in the next hour holly smale was diagnosed as autistic at 39 and she's now written

a novel with a character based on her at the heart of the story so if this is something you can relate to we would love to hear from you also we're going to be hearing from another inspiring Woman's Hour powerlister. Also a new three-part Channel 4 series about the Johnny Depp and Amber Heard defamation trial. We'll be starting. We'll be talking to the director of that series and an interview with singer-songwriter Kesha. That text number once again, 84844. Get in touch with me about kissing or anything else you hear on the programme. Today, I am asking for your first kiss. But when was the first kiss? In a new study out today,

scientists have suggested that humans kissing may have started four and a half thousand years ago in the ancient Middle East. That's a thousand years earlier than previously thought. Scientist Dr Sophie Lund Rasmussen from the University of Oxford joins me now to tell us more. Good morning, Sophie. Welcome to Woman's Hour. Tell us about this research. How do we know kissing started so long ago? It's a very interesting story, actually. So kissing has been attested in ancient cuneiform language on ancient clay tablets from Mesopotamia. And the stories are like myths of gods kissing each other and having intercourse.

And these were actually around for, you know, thousands of years. And the Assyriologists, the ones specialising in this ancient culture in Mesopotamia, they knew about this ancient kissing, but they hadn't really communicated it to the public. So that's why until now, people have thought that the first documentation for kissing was 1500 BCE. But it turns out now that these ancient sources are actually dating back to 2500 BCE. So we're basing it on art that has been created where people are depicted kissing. So what culture did we think it originated in 1500 years ago? So that was from India, ancient manuscripts from India. And now these manuscripts from Mesopotamia, that's ancient Iraq and Syria,

written manuscripts actually describes kissing a thousand years before that. And what kind of kissing are we talking about? Friendly kissing, peck on the cheek, more than that? That's a sexual romantic kiss. And do we know what happened? What more do we know about it? So we just basically know that kissing was attested throughout Mesopotamia and these ancient sources. So it would also be letters describing how kissing should only be between married couples, for example. So there was some sort of control of who you would be kissing sexually, romantically.

So we have quite a lot of documentation from that. So it's been really interesting to look into that and rewrite the history books about ancient kissing. You're literally rewriting the history books. It's brilliant. And do we know that it, did it lead to any spread of diseases or cold sores? Yes, exactly. So, I mean, kissing can lead to the spread of infectious diseases, which are the types that are spread through saliva, for example. So it appears that through kissing, we have spread these different pathogens, such as the herpes simplex virus causing cold sores. And research has suggested that the advent of kissing could have, you know, boosted the spread. But the research we have just published, Torj Pankapil, my co-author and I, indicates that

kissing has been around for a very long time, widespread, at least in the Middle East and India. So the effects of kissing on disease transmission may have been more or less constant throughout history. It's funny, when we were talking about it in the office, we just presumed that everyone has just kissed for always. Yeah, and we may have. So this is the earliest documentation of kissing, right? But when we look into the behavior of our closest living relatives,

like the chimps and bonobos, they also kiss in a sexual romantic way. So that might indicate that we've been kissing for a very long time. This is just the earliest evidence. Pre-toothpaste kissing. Exactly. And it's very useful because so behavioral anthropologists, they think that we actually started kissing to evaluate our partner's quality, because, of course out for themselves or if they have poor dental health, they might be, you know, weak. So that would be a way of, you know, assessing whether the partner is one to keep. Or give them a wide berth and dodge the kiss.

And rather fittingly, Sophie, you co-authored your study with your husband. Yes, exactly. And it all started over dinner. Yes, that was basically a dinner conversation about a study that came out describing the spread of herpes simplex virus back in the Bronze Age. And we started discussing this history of kissing. And my husband, he's a meteorologist at Copenhagen University, and he can read all these ancient cuneiforms

from Mesopotamia. And he went, I think I could beat that with a thousand years. I think the kiss is way older than that. And then we had to go and investigate. And then this paper came out of it, published in Science Today. Wonderful. And what fun it is. Brilliant. Thank you so much for joining me to fill me in about the history of kissing. Now we know. Dr. Sophie Lund-Rasmussen, thank you so much. joining me to fill me in about the history of kissing. Now we know. Dr. Sophie Lund-Rasmussen. Thank you so much. Thoroughly enjoyed that.

Lots of you getting in touch about your first kiss. Hello, Anita. Hello, Woman's Out. My first kiss was with a boy at school at the disco in the 80s. He'd just eaten a bag of cheese and onion crisps. I never kissed him again. And I haven't been able to eat cheese and onion crisps since. And that's from Michelle Boer.

Someone else here. Russette says, I was 12 and completely besotted with a guy who was 14 we were on our way home from school disco oh the school disco sitting in the back of an open truck he kissed me I saw stars fell in love and swore then that I would marry him I remember it like it was yesterday I'm now 57 needless to say it did not last he broke my heart oh um Vicky and Somerset my first kiss was aged 14 when a boy called Martin walked me home from the inter-school dance he picked me I was so happy I floated home and was on cloud nine for weeks it was a long deep kiss, but no tongues. The details are excellent. 84844 is the number to text. Now, this year's Woman's Hour Power List focused on women in sports.

Our list of 30 is the essential guide to the who's who in the world of sport, whether in the boardroom, on the pitch or in your local community. The list was announced in March. You can find out all about it by going to our website. And in the weeks since, I and my fellow presenters have had the wonderful job of speaking to them and getting to hear all about the amazing work they do. And today is no exception. Sat in front of me is Manisha Taylor. Manisha is the Assistant Head of Coaching at Championship Club, Queen's Park Rangers, the first woman to hold such a position in men's professional football in England. Manisha founded Swagalicious, great name, an organisation that uses community football sessions to engage with minority groups,

including women and girls, and especially those with mental health challenges. Manisha, welcome to Woman's Hour. Congratulations. How did it feel when you found out that you're on the power list? and doing so many wonderful things across the pyramid. So whether that's in grassroots and community or whether that's in the elite part of their respective sports. So yeah, incredibly happy. How empowering was it to be in that room? Oh, it was amazing. I took my mum and she was really excited. And what was really nice as well is to see for her

how much sports evolved over time from the time that she would see myself as a young child in the early 80s and and now seeing so many women in the room who are so passionate about sports she really liked the panel uh particularly um the open swimming and hearing more about that did she gonna give it a go i'm not quite sure she going to give it a go? I'm not quite sure she's going to give it a go. But what she did say was she was so inspired by seeing women who perhaps are in a similar age bracket to her. And just, you know, how much endeavor that they had to really, you know, give it a go. Wonderful. I love the fact that you took your moment that she was inspired by the wild swimmers. Your assistant head of coaching at QPR. I'd love to know your story about where your love of football began. But of course, in that time, we know that the landscape of women's sport, football or not, wasn't as it is now.

And we're in a much better space with regards to participation and visibility. But at that time, you know, you hardly saw women playing sport on TV. And for my mum, for somebody like myself, being Indian, she didn't see many Indian girls. In fact, I don't think she saw any Indian girls playing football. Not until Bend It Like Beckham, which was, you know, much later. Yeah, no. And that was fiction. Absolutely.

And so she was more than happy for me to play at school because it was attached to school. Yeah. And it was easy because she would drop us off and pick us up at the same time. However, because there were a lack of access to opportunities, I realised early on that being a footballer was probably never going to be in my lifetime. So I veered into the world of education as a teacher and coaching was a natural progression and it just kept my love for football connected. But it also allowed me to keep the love of football connected with my twin brother, who, when we were 18, suffered from a mental health breakdown. Which we will talk about because that is another aspect of what you do and the amazing work that you do.

But not only are you a woman, you are also an Indian woman in this sort of elite level of football. How did you get to where you had how many doors did you have to kick down to get to where you are and how hard was that a countless countless countless doors um and I think that you know it I'd be naive to say that that isn't still the case allyship's been incredibly important and having... Male, female? Male. Yeah.

In my experience from where I am. And I say that because opportunities are quite scarce in any case. And early on when I took my career change and I was almost finding myself reinventing myself again and a little bit later in my life. So I was in my I was 31 when I took the career change and then 36 when I started at QPR part time. And what was great was to Chris Ramsey, who's our technical director and head of coaching and my direct line manager is he's very empathetic of individual difference. And I think because he also has sisters and nieces, there's a real empathy towards making sure that women in the workplace are treated on a level playing field. And I'd met him initially in 2014. I met him again at another event in 2016. And he introduced me to a voluntary opportunity at QPR and was honest about I haven't got any jobs. However, you can come down and volunteer if you like. And I'm pretty much I suppose the rest is history because I spent just under 200 hours there volunteering. volunteering and but having him as an ally and then prior to that while I was doing my coaching qualifications having other allies who took me under their wing was incredibly important and then

in the latter part Chris introduced me to Emma Hayes and Hope Howe who's he's he's very very good friends with um and they are on the phone um you know, whenever I need a helping hand, I went down to Chelsea to shadow Emma and spend time with her. And when I look at their character traits and their personalities, what it reminds me of is actually how incredibly important it is as women, particularly in a fraternity where it is dominated by men, that you do have to be bold and you do have to assert yourself. And unfortunately, that assertion gets tarnished as you're moody. You're always, you know, you've got a chip on your shoulder. And I think we do have to keep continuing to change that.

But you also need to be confident and trailblazing in that path to try and continue to kick those doors down. Which is difficult. It's a lot of work. It's a lot of work on the few women in those spaces. But also hearing your story, tenacity, you know, most people would have given up when they realised that they didn't have a career in football. But here you are at 36 getting the job at QPR. Yeah, absolutely. I think, you know, where there's a will, there's a way. And whoever the individual is, you will have something that intrinsically drives you to do what you do. And for me, that was my brother's story. And I look at him every day thinking, what else can we do? Not just for him, but for but for you know for those who go through that mental

trauma so if with that intrinsic motivation if we can use that to internally drive us what it means is is we'll we'll we'll find solutions to some of those challenges so your your twin brother was diagnosed with schizophrenia when you when you were 18. And you've written that you carried a lot of the blame and felt angry with yourself for a long time. And it was football that helped you get through it. Yeah, because, you know, we spent, well, we spent every time that we could together. And what I couldn't understand was why I didn't know.

I couldn't understand that. And although there were some signs in retrospect that we now look back and think, oh, actually, he was probably a little bit more moodier than before, but it was just put down to he's a teenager. So the reason I was angry with myself was because I thought that I should have been better at observing, like I should have been better at noticing what he's going through. And it's taken me a long time. I don't look, I'm not there yet, in terms of healing. What have you done to try? Initially, I'll admit I didn't do a lot. and now when I do go and talk and I speak I one of the things I share is actually I would have been mentally in a better place or internally in a

better place had I early on just spoke to somebody about how I was feeling and because I didn't I veered everything into work so I trained and qualified as a head teacher at 31. That is very young. And that's simply because all I did was find a way of channeling all that anger and blame and frustration into that. And that became my focal point. But only now, so that we're going from 1998 to now, now do I feel in a place where I can accept, actually, it wasn't my fault. I'm not there yet with regards to being healed.

I don't think I am. And I think maybe, you know, sometimes we have to accept that. Would we ever? I wonder how much of your story, and you tell me, just obviously being from an Indian background, is to do also with the lack of conversation that happens within families and communities around mental health. And then, you know, I hear this story time and time again of South Asian women the 90s, right, early 2000s, our first thing was, we will take care of it ourselves. And we will not let people know. And that's very much to do with what you described around community taboo and stigma, but also a lack of access to mental health services. So we move on, fast forward 20 years, we're in a much better place. However, you know, probably for another conversation,

but the care sector is so under-resourced that yet the care sector is so physically and mentally demanding. And I see that firsthand with my brother's carers because he needs one-to-one care. But there's many like him who, you know, will come in the morning, will be working all night. You've got live-in carers who also, you know, will work quite late through the day and then be back there in the morning again.

And with it being so underfunded and under-resourced, and then you're attaching the fact that for those who come from an ethnically multicultural background, there is taboo and stigma. And shame. Exactly, and shame. How quickly are we going to see change? How quickly are we going to see people who are comfortable

in asking for help and actually talking about how they feel? And also, you know, I'm just wondering the support in understanding the nuances of the cultures where people don't talk about mental health. I think it's getting better, but I must admit, I think that we are still quite far away from where we need to be because some of those stigmas still exist. And it could be due to fear. It could be due to a lack of understanding also around what support is available and appreciating that it is okay to go and share. It's okay to talk about these issues because it's not a South Asian or an Indian thing. It's actually, it happens in life to anybody and how do you look

after your own mental health so I've as well as work and I will admit that uh I still I'm still a workaholic and I still channel everything into into work she's why you're so successful I think that having that grit and we spoke about tenacity, that's helped me become quite balanced. Although some people will perceive it as being unbalanced because all they see is the work. But I also make sure that I go to the gym and I find my own pockets of time. And that's why I think what's really important is this, is there is no set way in each individual caring about their mental health. That is going to look so different to each individual, but it's about finding what suits you and what's right for you.

And as long as you have that, so for me, I'll go to the gym regularly. I'll listen to podcasts now that Chris will just send me these motivational podcasts. He'll keep WhatsAppping me. I'll make sure I listen to podcasts now that Chris will just send me these motivational podcasts. He'll keep WhatsAppping me. I'll make sure I listen to that and I replace that with perhaps listening to music. And that, to be honest, has helped me maintain balance. I'm a lot more measured. I'm better at regulating how I feel and maintaining temperament. And if I can continue to do that, it just means you're in a better place

when you go into work or you go into different environments and how's your brother he's a lot better now we do take care of him at home as alongside the carers but we're and we're in a much better place and of course like any family what we hope for is that he is in a place where he was where we remember him you, as this child who loved sport, who'd interact with lots and lots of different people. And, you know, we live in the hope that that will happen one day. And whilst we're living in that hope, our job is to make sure, one, that as a family,

we work together to make sure that he's cared for. But I think also, more importantly, it's using your voice, right? Using your voice to create change based on those experiences. And you're using your voice to create change, not just in and you're using your voice to create change not just in the field of mental health but also football as well um more power to you manisha thank you so much for joining me and congratulations once again on making the power list thank you thank you that's manisha taylor there inspiring stuff 84844 is the number to text if you'd like to get in touch with me about anything you're hearing on the programme this morning, particularly your first or your best kiss. Someone has said, my best kiss was last year in Spain on the eve of my 47th birthday,

was with a strapping Danish man. Wonderful to know that even in middle age, kissing is still so exciting. Now, Depp vs Heard is a three-part channel 4 series that charts the tumultuous defamation trial between actors Johnny Depp and his former wife Amber Heard that was broadcast live in full last year mixing courtroom footage with the reaction from the millions who viewed it online for six weeks it's a story of twists and turns dubbed the world's first TikTok trial the legal battle raised a number of questions about the possibility of justice in a world of social media, as well as the way society treats accusations of domestic violence. Well, BAFTA nominated documentary director Emma Cooper has made the series, which will air from this Sunday on three consecutive nights.

Welcome to Woman's Hour, Emma. And thank you so much for staying up into the wee hours because you are in L.A. What time is it over there? I am. It's 2.30 in the morning. I'm so sorry. I'm slightly husky because it is quite late. Yes. But I'm very happy to be here on Woman's Hour. No, no, we're loving you. I'm husky and I've got no excuse. Just is. Remind us of the detail. Why? Why this former couple were in court? So so basically, there was a Amber Heard wrote an op ed piece in The Washington Post and she she alleged domestic abuse. She didn't mention Johnny Depp by name. And this came to court, a libel case in

London in 2020, which he actually lost. And then he brought her back to court in a civil case. It was a defamation case is the one that we watched recently, which he ultimately won. Why do you think he chose to sue her and not the Washington Post who printed the piece? Well, her lawyer did point that out. I mean, it was very pointed and it was very, very specific. You know, he could have definitely sued, you know, the Washington Post, but he went for her instead, which I think, you know, it played out as on both sides as a public relations slash legal case in many ways, which you can see as we work through the trial. Why did you want to make the series?

Oh, my goodness. Because I was obsessed with it. And, you know, I'm a busy single mum. I run a company, I'm a director and I'm an executive producer. And I just watched every single frame of it. And then I was on the phone to my friends every night about it. And I thought, you know, what does this say about us all? What you know, it was an extraordinary phenomenon.

And, you know, when I made this series, I'm not setting myself apart from the people that I'm focusing on. I'm very much a part of this. The series is very much a part of this. What does this say about us that, you know, we must have this kind of discourse and obsession with other people's lives and all the social media around it? And quite frankly, I loved the soap opera of it. I loved I was addicted from the minute they came into the court and they were both badly lit. And I thought, oh my God, they just, they don't look like Hollywood stars anymore.

They look like sort of, you know, characters in a B movie. And I was just hooked. And then obviously the rest of the world was equally hooked. Yeah, there's so much going on in your series, the trial, the relationship, domestic abuse, the use of social media what as you've just mentioned what it says about us as a society but you start in the first episode looking at their relationship and how they met why was it important to start there um yeah I kind of make a big deal about their love story because you know also I wanted this series to to play like a movie know, I haven't done any interviews.

I had a composer do a score for it. And I felt it was really important to just acknowledge the fact that this was a love story. OK, it was a Hollywood love story, but it was a love story. And at one point, these two people really loved each other very passionately. And I just wanted to remind everybody that this is where this started. And then the horror of where it ended up with us all looking at things like defecations in beds and things like that. And so I just wanted people to remember that this was actually two human beings that at one point, you know, loved each other. And they testified two weeks apart,

but you edited it with them back to back why did you do that i do i do um because i'm sort of obsessed with truth and i believe that there is there are three truths there's her truth there's his truth and the truth and most of the time those those strands are combined in some way and to see them both discuss one theme one event that happened next to each other is is not something that we got to do in the trial and so all of a sudden you had this incredible perspective and we as the viewer again how it comes back to how do you figure the truth how do you do this and I and I found so closely their their different perspectives on one event was was incredibly illuminating and and and made it even more difficult to decide yeah what the truth was in a way I'm going to ask you

about how you decided what to put into your edit but it's gripping because it's like a movie it's it but it's also hard to watch and it's incredibly sad as well and i didn't obsessively watch the trial but i i was very hooked on your series i couldn't stop watching your series um the trial raised significant issues though regarding violence gender and the nature of justice in i guess this post-truth era some referred to it as a me too trial was it um I mean look I think we are in a in a in a in a in a kind of you know we're in a me too backlash kind of era we live in a patriarchal society there is misogyny all around us I went into this thinking that it was a me too trial and I think I came out of it thinking wow everything

around us is so difficult at the moment and I don't mean to say that as a get out you know it was very difficult when you actually dug into it and you actually dug into both perspectives. You know, there are domestic violence abuse survivors who feel that Johnny was abused and there are people, domestic abuse survivors, who think that Amber was. And you've got to respect both of those positions. And again, it goes back more to what the hell is the truth here, you know?

And when the truth gets taken away from justice and from the court and into the hands of us, which is, again, is not necessarily a bad thing. The democratization of truth and news and reportage is not necessarily a bad thing. But we all have to have within us now a deep filter of how we figure out what the truth is. And so I don't, I can't really find a binary kind of answer about Me Too. I think that I'm happy that it was discussed. I think it's terribly sad that we observed and witnessed and poured over the clear acts of violence on both sides, which is there in the primary evidence. You know, I don't mean to sound like a history teacher, but every time I'd go back to the primary evidence, which was the audio files and the

recordings, and there was compelling evidence that there was violence on both sides. It was a difficult relationship. Well, we'll all be able to watch and decide how we feel about it when we watch the documentary. Thank you so much for speaking to me about that. And you can go to bed now. Thank you. Thank you so much.

Thanks so much, I will. Thank you, Ella. It starts on Sunday night. It's on consecutively three nights in a row on Channel 4. 84844, the number to text. But first, the American singer-songwriter Kesha. night it's on consecutively three nights in a row on channel four eight four eight four four the number to text but first the american singer songwriter kesha she featured on rapper flow riders number one single right round she's since had two number one albums and nine top 10 singles on the u.s billboard including we are who we are your love is my drug die young and timber with

pitbull she's earned two grammy nominations and was also named one of Time magazine's Time 100. Her latest album, Gag Order, is released today with themes of love, anxiety and a spiritual awakening. Well, I spoke to her recently and I started by asking her, when did the seeds of this album begin? One night I was having like a ton of anxiety. It was during lockdown, not just like a moment of it, like it felt like omnipresent. And I kind of was laying in bed, just fighting off a panic attack. And then I had this really beautiful thing happen where I felt like all of a sudden I felt held and I felt like this big golden blanket got thrown over me

and I could just feel it go up my entire body and then it proceeded to like go into this whole psychedelic seeming experience where I I now have found out I guess that is what a spiritual awakening is or ego death. Like I've been reading about both. It sounds a little bit like how people describe one or the other. And yeah, the best way I could describe it is in the song Eat the Acid. So I woke up the next day and wrote Eat the Acid. And so that was the first seed of the album.

Tell me the story behind it then. Why is it called eat the acid I mean it sounds like you had a spiritual awakening without eating the acid yeah my mom just always told me to not take acid she was she would always tell me like if you drink it feels like this if you smoke weed it feels like this and then when it came to acid, it was like, don't take acid. And on purpose was like, okay, I'm never touching acid. It sounds horrifying. So I never took it mainly because she said, once you see the things it shows you, you can't unsee them. And you're never the same. And I kind of was like you know what I'd

like to stay blissfully unaware of whatever you're talking about and then I guess it was my time to uh see it all that night because I didn't miss it and I saw it all and it was also you know a metaphor for when you really start realizing the world we live in is a series of illusions. Where did that come from, do you think? Why did that experience happen? I think it was a gift. I think it was a gift because I've always been a seeker. I always like really wanted to have some sort of god or goddess or, you know, something that made me feel like I wasn't in control of everything. It's not all on my shoulders. Maybe there's a method to the madness.

And so I would always go into different churches and explore different religions since I was a kid before I kind of dropped out of school and started doing music 100%. I was studying comparative religion at college. Fascinating. I could hear bits. There was one track called Ram Dass, So I was quite intrigued by the name there. Well, so Ram Dass is special to me because there's a book called Be Here Now. About 10 years

ago, I went to treatment for an eating disorder. And it was the first book that got sent to me. And when I started reading it, it just made me feel not alone. Like a lot of the things he was saying and talking about, I felt so deeply connected to. I felt like finally someone had captured how I felt. And since then, I've always loved Ram Dass. And kind of at the 11th hour on this album, I asked the man who decides if he is allowed to be sampled. And I didn't think it was going to happen. And then we had a conversation about the intention of my album.

And he allowed me to use the Ram Dass sample, which... Yeah, it's beautiful. I just feel very grateful. It's amazing. So I've written a couple of bits down that I'm going to talk to you about. But I actually want to know what it was like working with the rick rubin on this he's like as amazing as anyone could ever expect and then some talking of gurus he just created space for me to be the most vulnerable extra version of myself, you know, I'm a triple Pisces.

What does that mean? I'm so emotional and I would go into the studio and just be overwhelmed with emotion. And he was so patient and he just like allowed for me to go through whatever I needed to go through. And there was a lot of time we spent in the studio, me just sobbing. And he would just give me the space and time until then we were ready to work. We would meditate together.

And then he would help channel all the emotion that was coming out physically into song. There's one line that I've written down from Only Love Can Save Us Now. And I just had to write it down. And it says, I've got no shame left, baby, that's my freedom. It's quite a powerful line, isn't it? Thank you.

I thought so too. There is something very empowering when you feel like everyone has said everything they possibly could about you, and you've cried about it. You've been bad about it. You've had all the emotions. And I finally have gotten to the point where I care so much about this album, but I really can't about what other people think or say about me. As an entertainer, I also know it comes with the territory. So I don't want to be like, oh, poor'm a singer and so people take paparazzi pictures but that was a really hard thing to get used to people taking pictures of you and you not knowing they were and then you see them

cover of a magazine and you look like shit moments like that used to just destroy me and you were so young oh my god yeah I was so young and it definitely like was difficult also like on the other side of things like dealing with an eating disorder they didn't really go hand in hand very nicely and living in the public eye going through all of that as well yeah so how did how did you cope well if we're because I because we're talking about women here, right? Like there is this culture of comparison. I felt when I first started putting out music where I didn't understand, like we're all on the same team. And I now realize that we're all going through this together.

We're all so connected. It's not a competition. And because outside people would compare me to someone else or compare my body. Or literally, I one time saw someone comparing my size breasts to somebody else. And the whole thing is just deranged. And I can laugh at it now because I worked through it. But that almost killed me at one point. And I've had so much shame about all of these moments in my life.

And now after the spiritual awakening and the album I've just made and just where I'm at, I feel like I know who I am. I know what I stand for. And I hope everyone in the world to have love and happiness and success because then it'll just make a more enjoyable world for us all to live in and there is no comparison we're all our own little contained universes coexisting on this planet so what a great place to be how do you feel about your old songs now when you hear them massive massive hits like TikTok. Those are all my babies, you know. I don't have like human children yet, you know, maybe one day. But I always wonder if parents really don't have a favourite.

But I would say that I look back to my old songs with like great affinity and I almost look at her, the girl that put those out at 22 I look at her like a little sister and I'm like good for you you were having so much fun and I'm so happy I have that recorded piece of my life down and it's down in history and I can always go like yeah yeah like what do you got home videos it's like watching home videos your family except for mine is in albums that are for the whole world to see yeah except except yours isn't just massive dance floor bangers that you managed to produce when you were really really young um talking of parents um you grew up with huge range of musical

influences from Iggy Pop to Dolly Parton because you're a musical family and this amazing mother of yours was a singer-songwriter so what was it like growing up in that environment? Honestly I think it was just beautiful to be raised by someone who's so talented and also always encouraged me to chase my dreams. Like I hear from all different kinds of people that have been raised so many different ways. And I think a parenting style does probably affect the child. And my mom always would say, when you're famous, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Not like if you get famous, it was always when you're famous you're a star like she was always very encouraging of me to have this confidence in myself that I think really helped me to be able to have the balls to

try to be a pop star at the time which sounded a bit ludicrous but she believed in me and had my back and like here we are and she's a collaborator on the album on gag order. Not only your mum, but your eight year old niece. How did you find working with them? Tell me about those two. Well, me and my mum, we have written songs together since I was a little kid. Like it's a really cool bonding experience we have. So when I had this like spiritual awakening, ego death, psychosis feeling moment in time,

the next day I just called my mom and I was like, we're writing a song about it. And she knows me better than anybody else in the entire world. So it ended up being really beautiful collaboration because I was writing a song about how my mom told me not to take acid with my mom who took acid and has now seen her child go from who I was to who I am and have that shift in my personality without taking it. So to write the song with her was just really full circle, but it also allowed me to get to the most authentic version of myself. The thing about writing a song with one of your parents is you cannot bullshit them. So I found we write some of my best songs together because she just knows me.

You are on Woman's Hour. And we know that you have a strong feminist streak in you, because I'm thinking back to your third album, Rainbow, which received Grammy nominations and the track Woman. And in it, you say, I buy my own things, I pay my own bills, these diamond rings, my automobiles, everything I got, I bought it. How important is that to you? Honestly, like a pipe dream of mine. It would be really like cool to like fall in love with a guy that has a yacht and just like lay on it. Don't get me wrong, but there's something that makes me feel a lot of confidence. And I'm proud of myself knowing that I earned this life for myself. I am proud of that. And I find women to be so like God-like, especially the whole birthing process.

We are in control of the future of humanity and also have to like have our periods get paid less make babies like we just we are gods among men and I just think that sometimes I feel like we are underappreciated because we also we always like act like it's fine and we always look fabulous so nobody would know how hard it is sometimes but being a woman can be incredibly difficult and we deserve as many anthems about being a badass woman as we could take yeah keep them coming that's what i'm saying keep them coming kesha i want to talk about love because it's a theme on the album love of your family yourself love of your cats tell me about tell me about love I think love is the most important emotion it's so magical it's intangible yet tangible it's exciting it can be heartbreaking. But love for me is what keeps me going.

Love of life, love of myself, love of my friends, love of my animals. Mr. Peeps, your famous cat. You've written a track about him. Oh, I did because he got really sick and I thought I was going to like lose him. And, you know, I fancy myself a really strong, independent woman, but I need very little, but I need my cat. Kesha there. A very, very frank and open conversation with her and her album, Gag Order, is out today. Now, the best-selling author of the

Geek Girl series, Holly Smale was diagnosed as autistic two years ago at the age of 39. She said she felt relief that she now has an explanation for why she's never felt she's fitted in. She couldn't see herself anywhere so she wrote Geek Girl, a book about a smart

socially awkward clumsy unpopular teenager, Harriet Manners, who hides under tables and relates to the world with animal facts. Holly has now written her first adult fiction book, The Cassandra Complex. The novel is highly autobiographical, drawing on her own experience. And she joins me now live in the studio. Congratulations. It's been out a week. How are you feeling?

Really relieved, actually. And yeah, just happy that it's out there. I'm so proud of this book. You spent a long time looking in books for people like yourself. What were you looking for? And what did you or didn't you find? I didn't know what I was looking for. I think that was the problem. I just I kept reading, you know, people in books that just didn't feel like they were people I could identify with. And I loved it, obviously, because you get to explore other people's experiences and brains and that kind of thing but I just didn't see myself um and when you already feel different in real life when you don't see

yourself reflected in literature either it makes you feel even more left out and as if there's something wrong with you um so yeah I didn't really find Anna Green Gables when I was younger I felt like that was a connection. But other than that, yeah, I felt like if I was going to find someone like me, I need to probably write it. Is it true that you your friends call you Sheldon after the character in Big Bang Theory? Sometimes, yeah, but more often Lisa Simpson. I mean, is there a higher praise? No, no, not at all.

She's the one. You were on the last on the programme two years ago talking to Emma, but remind us how you got your diagnosis. Yeah, I think during lockdown, there was an enormous amount of relief that I hadn't quite realised was going to settle in just not being around other people. So obviously I was lonely during lockdown. I was on my own. But there was also that strain taken away of not having to communicate all the time with with other humans um and that then I started talking to a guy online and he ripped me a new one so I ended up having uh he told me I was broken in some way so I went it sent me on a journey of a sort of self-discovery I guess um and I you know realized that what people have been telling me for a long time was probably true and that I was probably autistic. And you came on the programme when you just found out.

And now two years later. Yeah. How much has changed? It's been a big difference. I mean, I'm still on that path of like kind of working out who I am and how I work. But a lot of the shame that I used to feel has started to just slowly melt away every day. I've started to mask less, I've started to connect more with other people just because I'm no longer trying to be someone else.

Explain what masking is. It's something that a lot of women do who are autistic, right? Yes. Explain it to us. It's essentially like I realised I was different at three and looking at the kids around me I realised that I wasn't like them and I was very curious and wanted to try and fit in better instinctively. So I would watch the way that they moved, the way they spoke, the way they held their heads, the way that they communicated and the topics they communicated about. It was basically like being an alien studying a completely different species, as if I'd just been dropped on the planet and now I had to pretend to be human.

So from like three years old, I was doing that on a daily basis and I got better and better and better at it until you just, the mask is all you know. You don't have your own identity because you are constantly pretending to be someone else. And it's exhausting. And yeah, I think it's, I'm still working on dropping that,

you know, around other people. Have you, and it sounds exhausting just hearing you explain it. Do you feel you feel lighter i do i do and you know there's always a certain joy in in revealing your real self and realizing that people won't necessarily reject you whereas that always that fear and sometimes they do but you know you know the fear of exposing who you really are and nobody wanting that is is quite. So how liberating was it being able to write your first adult fiction based on you? So liberating and so easy. I know that you're not supposed to say that about books.

I'm supposed to say that, you know, the art was torn from the... Yes, torture. Yeah, exactly. Tortured artist kind of trope. But I actually, I loved it. It was so liberating. I swore so much. Feels good. Yeah, I got to write about sex it was great um and how different was it writing about neurodivergency whilst knowing that you

are having that knowing that you're neurodivergent was it different to writing Geek Girl yeah I think uh so when I was writing Geek Girl I knew specifically that I was going for a level of honesty I wanted to try and pinpoint what it was that was different about me so I knew that I was kind of aiming to to really be specific about my communication differences my sensory issues but now that I know that I'm autistic there's another level of honesty because I can actually go into things that I was perhaps I'm autistic there's another level of honesty because I can actually go into things that I was perhaps too embarrassed or ashamed to mention in in in other books so yeah I mean honesty has always been the key for me and that's just what I want to continue.

The storyline is about time travel why did you choose to write it that way? So I love time travel stories they're completely fascinating and um you know I just wanted to do it in a slightly different way I wanted to do it in a more kind of intimate and domestic way um but also in the looping and the repeating and hyper focusing it felt like it really reflected her character and the way her mind works so it was almost kind of taking that theme and making it bigger um yeah more thematic orthomatic. And you write about love, something you didn't feel you're able to write about before. Yes, I don't have a completely normal experience of love. And I have never really been in love, even though I'm in my 40s now. So that was something that put me off writing, I think,

for adults, because I felt like that was an experience that I should have had and be able to write about accurately and actually with my diagnosis I realized that that was something that was was interesting actually that I didn't have to have the normal experience that I could actually be honest about you know how I maybe struggled to find it in real life um and yeah and also just exploring the love that you have for other people even if it's not romantic even if it's you know for your family for your friends for the people you choose and you connect with in many different ways so really it's a book about love i think yeah we don't want to give any spoilers away so no we'll save that um so let's pick up on that um you're not feeling that you've been in love um your early 30s. How is dating?

It's not always fun. It can be quite confusing. You know, when communication is a bit of a struggle, it can be difficult to do first dates and get through them in one piece. So, yeah, but I'm relentless and I will continue pursuing. Yes, absolutely. There's this bit in the book that's particularly great. I will continue pursuing. Yes, absolutely. There's this bit in the book that's particularly great. I mean, it is very, very funny.

She goes back to rewrite a blunt email that she sent to her boss because she's told she needs to be more likable and not grating in work meetings. Is this something you have to think about? Yeah. So I learned quite a long time ago that if I, so my communication is very direct. It tends to be just, you know, this is what I want from this communication. And that will be like one line. And I found out a long time ago that people found that rude. And so what I do now is I write what I need to say. And then I go back in at the end and I add in social niceties around it.

So I'll be like, I'll go back in and say, hey, how was your day? Did you have a nice holiday? And then I'll go at the end and say, hope you have a great weekend. So I, and I do the same with text. I'll add like, like emojis after I've said what I need to say. Completely insincere. Yeah, yeah. Just, and, and, you know, I do care how their day was.

It's not like I don't care. But for me, communication is, is quite a, let's get done what we need to get done. So I'm aware that I have to go and fit it in afterwards. You said it, you write that autism is like speaking two languages at once. Is that exhausting? Yeah, it's completely exhausting. Having to go back and look at your emails and think, how do I make this sound more yeah polite yeah and even in person like you know I have to um sort of try and process everything at once I struggle with um emotions in terms of identifying and processing um and expressing and it's called alexithymia but um so because of that I have to try and listen to what someone's saying work out what they mean

from that um assess their emotions on their face try and work out what they are what i feel what what my response should be and then translate it back into neurotypical language amazing which is like being bilingual yeah it's an amazing way that your mind works i have thoroughly enjoyed speaking to you we could chat for ages but i've just you if you're you were reading my face you would have seen my eyes darting to the clock to say we are literally get coming off air in 15 seconds. Thank you so much for your first kiss stories. Thank you so much for speaking to me, Holly.

My first real kiss was 15 in the back of a local disco. 47 years later, I'm still with him. That's from Sue in Herefordshire. Tomorrow, Weekend Woman's Hour. Join me then. BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. I'm Sarah Trelevan, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started like

warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story. Settle in. Available now.