Woman's Hour - Kids Against Plastic, Irish Tampon Ad, Zara McFarlane

Episode Date: August 3, 2020

Listen to sisters Ella and Amy. They're behind Kids Against Plastic and talk to us about the world's reliance on plastic, especially single use plastic, and the way we just dump it. On Wednesday they're part of the online climate change forum called ‘Race Against Climate Change’.We go to Ireland to hear about a tampon TV ad which has caused a stir, so much so it's been taken off air. Some people have been offended by it due to its straightforward description of how you use them. Two Irish women defend the ad. They're Alexandra Ryan and Ciara Kelly.After Ireland we go to India to learn about a petition which urges the Indian Prime Minister to encourage men to do their fair share of housework. So far the petition has 70,000 signatures. And we go to the jazz and soul singer, Zara McFarlane who talks about her album Songs of An Unknown Tongue. She says that her latest single called Black Treasure is a "declaration, proclamation and celebration of black Britishness and womanhood."

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme. Peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hi, this is Jane Garvey and this is the Woman's Hour podcast. It is Monday the 3rd of August 2020. Hello, good morning. I hope you're all right this morning and had a reasonable weekend. Today with us we ask whether Indian men are doing their fair share of household chores. Let us know what you think about that. Let us know what's going on in your own household at BBC Women's Hour on Twitter.

Zara McFarlane is with us, jazz soul singer and songwriter. She also teaches singing. Looking forward to talking to her a little bit later. She's got a new album out. And we meet two sisters from Nottingham who are campaigning. Well, they're environmental campaigners and their organisation is called Kids Against Plastic. They're only 17 and 15, and they really are hugely impressive.

We start, though, this morning with a Tampax ad that's been banned in Ireland. The Advertising Standards Authority of Ireland has ruled that the ad shouldn't be shown on TV in its current form after it was deemed to cause widespread offence. They actually got 84 complaints about this ad, which featured a discussion about how you put a tampon in properly and get it in the right position. So it has been shown in the UK.

In fact, it's still being shown in the UK. If you haven't seen it, here's a quick excerpt. We have got a great show for you today. So tell me, how many of you ever feel your tampon? You shouldn't. It might mean your tampon isn't in far enough. You've got to get them up there, girls. Example, our special Tampax Pearl compact grip design is your guide to comfort.

Just pull it, lock it and put it in. Not just the tip, up to the grip. So get them up there, girls, with Tampax. Do it for comfort. There we go. All pretty clear. Keira Kelly is a presenter of Lunchtime Live on the radio station News Talk. And Alexander Ryan is CEO of Goss Media, which is an Irish entertainment news website. Keira Kelly, welcome to Radio 4 and to Woman's Hour.

Now, I know you're also a former doctor, so this is very much your territory. When you found out this ad had been banned because of the complaints, what did you do? Unbeknownst to myself, without even really thinking about it, because I work in radio and I'm a radio presenter in Ireland, I started talking about it and then I in radio and I'm a radio presenter in Ireland. I started talking about it and then I did build up a head of steam and I think rant might be a fair approximation

of what I did. So I just spoke about how angry I was that the shaming of women and the shaming of women's bodies goes on and that young women in particular, maybe who are getting their periods for the first time, girls, and you know, they can be very young, they can be from the age of 9, 10, 11, 12, that we are taking these ads and hiding this away as if it is something to be ashamed of. And I felt it was a very poor message to be sending to people. And I was extremely irate about it. And I still am.

And I think it's a nonsense, frankly, that 84 complaints in a population of 4.9 million in the Republic of Ireland is considered widespread offence. OK, 84 complaints. Who complained, Ciara? Well, sadly, actually, three-quarters of them were women. It wasn't all men going, oh, that's gross. It wasn't that. But that's not necessarily surprisingly, because, you know, I don't know about you, oh, that's gross. It wasn't that. But that's not necessarily surprisingly, because,

you know, I don't know about you, Jane, but I remember getting my very first period and not really knowing what it was about. And I remember going to a mixed school all through my teens and sitting and squirming in my chair in terror if I thought my period was due and it might come during class and somebody might know or somebody might see. So I think living with hiding our periods and living with embarrassment and mortification and shame around all of that was certainly in my day in the 80s was a normal part of growing up. So I think there are many women who are very uncomfortable with talk about periods and certainly public talk about periods. But unfortunately, I think that isn't I suppose a paradox I think the shame has been put upon us

and now we carry that shame ourselves. Are we assuming that the women who complained were older we don't know that do we? No I don't know that and I can't be sure because the clip of me on air has gone quite viral. I think we're on 1.9 million views or something of me expressing my sincere dislike of what's happened with this ad. And so there's been thousands and thousands of comments generated around it. The vast majority of both men and women, I have to say, were very supportive of what I said. And that would be the vast majority. But certainly there were comments from some women, and they weren't all older, saying, no, I didn't like that ad.

That ad made me uncomfortable. So I think there is a way to go for women, old and young, to become comfortable in their own skins, comfortable talking about their own bodily functions, and not sort of feeling that that that they're reproductive their sexual health their bodies themselves are are sort of shame-filled things we have to acknowledge the uh there's no discomfort quite like uh walking around with a tampon that isn't in the right place and we have to acknowledge that which is exactly what this ad was designed to illustrate for sure and and when they become uncomfortable and you know and i said

in my in my little um monologue i i i said you know i'm not wearing one now but i wear one sometimes and the only time i ever feel one is if it's starting to come down if it's starting to expel itself so if they're too low in in the vagina and i said vagina multiple times on air that day too um you get into difficulties because you can feel them and that's the way the vagina is designed. It's got a bigger space further up. We've got a statement here from Tampax who say, we're disappointed by the decision made by the Advertising Standards Agency of Ireland

to adjudicate against our recent Tampax and tea advert, but we're overwhelmed by the subsequent support we've seen by the Irish public. We're trying at Tampax to normalise conversations around periods through awareness, information and education. Our ad was designed to address a very common usage question and to help educate how to use the tampon correctly in a straight-talking way.

Alexander Ryan, you're a young woman in your early 30s, CEO of Goss Media. What do younger women make of this decision, do you think? I think a lot of women are very frustrated by this decision. So I'm 30 years old, a lot of my friends are in their 30s as well. And even at this age, so many friends of mine do not use tampons because they genuinely don't know how to use them. They've said to me that they're sore. And unfortunately, it's not even a common conversation. Even at this age, we would awkwardly kind of talk about it.

And the thing I loved about this ad is that it was very specific. It was about how to use it. It wasn't hiding the fact that we menstruate. And I find that over the years, so many ads were telling us how to hide the string, how to wear white pants. Like, you know, God forbid there'd be a stain it's always about this whole idea of hiding the fact you're on your period and subconsciously as you grow up especially as a woman in Ireland I think you become ashamed of menstruating at all and you don't want to and that's what we've been seeing in advertisements for years how to hide it so I actually really embraced this ad and I know a lot of people

here had an issue with the tagline which was get get it, get it up there, girls, get them up there, girls. But I felt that it was provocative for a reason. I think they were trying to target younger girls. Yeah. Well, provocative and advertising do sort of go hand in hand because it is about getting your message across, whatever your message might be. The idea that this was somehow sexualized. I mean, that is a real puzzle. If anybody's ever had a period, they'll know that it's not necessarily associated with feelings of sexual interest. I know some women do claim to be more interested in sex during their period than any other times. I'm just covering all my bases here. So, Alexander, what do you say about that? I think when you're on your period yes you can definitely

be you know more sexually active or feel you can those kind of sexual feelings but putting a tampon in your vagina does not turn you on and i was likening this to getting a smear test like anyone who's got a smear anyone who's had to put a tampon up there it is not pleasurable it is not sexual i've never met any woman in my life who said that it's sexual so the fact that some of the complaints were stating that there are sexual connotations it honestly blew my mind it's the most unsexual thing in the world being on your period having to use a device like that like you know having to crouch down and actually put it up there you know in the bathroom women have been doing it for years it's awkward and it's not like the ad was actually showing a woman crouching down putting it in which you know maybe it should have but you know it really wasn't

that bad it was just talking about it it wasn't even showing it this is really um going back to how little so many women know or are allowed to know kira about their own bodies what they look like how they feel how they work absolutely and as someone who worked as a gp and so in the area of women's health very much so for 20 years um it was very common that people come in and use all the euphemisms you know something down below women's troubles or you know we it was like we were talking in code half the time and and it's very disempowering for women if they actually have an issue so so sometimes it's hard for them to get help if they don't know the names of things or don't know where anything is. And I think it's really interesting what Alexandra was saying there about the sexualisation thing.

There's definitely a perception that if you talk about putting anything into your vagina, that that is a sexual thing. And that is very much the male perspective, no doubt about it. But for those of us who have periods, we're often sticking things into our vaginas because we have to and i think it is very important and i like what tampak said it is about normalizing our bodily functions and normalizing you know this issue around our bodies and i don't think that it is sort of good enough that that we don't let that you know that we let that go unchallenged that we sort of say oh yes well was a bit sexual. No, there's more to us than that. Yes, women are sexual. Yes, we have a sexuality. And yes, you know, people are sexually active during their periods. And

although not all, some women aren't. And some women aren't, not because there's necessarily it's uncomfortable or they don't like it, but they're uncomfortable with the idea of it. There is still a stigma. There is still shame around all of this. And I think we need to reclaim that and say, no, we're not going to allow ourselves to be viewed in that way. Yeah, I think we need to acknowledge that although this ad is shown in the UK, I think there will be plenty of people who see it in the UK and are, frankly, somewhat taken aback. I mean, the idea that Ireland is terribly behind the UK, well, I'm not sure that's necessarily true when it comes to issues like this.

Alexander, what do you say about that? I do think this is something that is an issue in general. And, you know, for me, a lot of this derives back to the issue of double standards in general. Even listening to Keir there talking about how, you know, is it sexualised, is it not? Women are sexualised all the time. You know, when it suits people, they're in rap videos, they're twerking, there's sex scenes, there's violence in TV shows. All of that is fine, but you talk about menstruation and it's something that's not attractive and suddenly it's not okay. And it's very frustrating as a woman to see that sometimes we're meant to be showing our boobs, showing our curves, but other times we have to keep things hidden.

And I think that idea needs to stop. I think we should be able to accept our bodies and talk about our bodies all the time. And it's very confusing for young girls in their teens, in their early 20s, being shown, you know, dance on TikTok, take off your clothes, but, you know, don't talk about periods, don't talk about menstruating. It's not a good way to grow up,

and it is quite shameful. So, again, I applauded Tampax for doing that ad because I really thought it would have stopped a good few young women in their tracks and thought, oh, my god, this is okay to talk about. Quick word from you, Ciara. That's the absolute nub of the thing. We're allowed to express ourselves in ways

if we come across as attractive or sexy. So no one cares if they see our boobs or our asses or anything if it comes across as sexy. If it comes across as just us, you know, bobbing around the house in our pyjamas and looking a bit scruffy, that's much less appealing and therefore that's what

we have to hide and that's not fair and it's not right and it's a very, very bad message for young women. Really, really good to talk to you. Ciara, I know, is speaking to us from the comfort of her airing cupboard. That's true. Whereabouts in Ireland are you, Ciara? I'm in Wicklow. I'm about 20 miles

south of Dublin and I have the luxury of having a little broadcast kit in my airing cupboard. So occasionally when I broadcast from home, I do sit surrounded by a very messy airing cupboard filled with towels and duvets and old pillows that I'm not sure I

still have kept and that's where I am right now. Alright, well, Woman's Hour would be the last place on earth where you get shamed for your untidy airing cupboards. So don't worry about that. We're very grateful to you. Thank you very much. And Ciara is a presenter on Lunchtime Lives,

the name of her show. Newstalk is the station. She's on air tomorrow. It's a bank holiday in Ireland today. So she's not around today, but tomorrow she's back on 12 noon till two. And Alexander Ryan is the CEO of Goss Media, which is an irish entertainment news

website and let us know your thoughts on that at bbc women's hour or you can email the program via our website so who is doing the majority of the chores in your house during this period this challenging period of all our lives well according to research back in may in the uk where there is a working dad and a working mother, women in the UK are still doing more work in the home and spending more time with their children. Meanwhile, in India, Sabana Ghosh has launched a petition urging Prime Minister Modi to tell Indian men to do their equal share of the work at home. So far, Sabana, your petition has got, well, tell me, how many signatures now? The number of signatures are around 71,000. Right. So still going up. And what made you want to start it?

The petition was started completely from a very personal ground. So I was also during the lockdown bearing most of the burden of the housework at home and being a part of the gender rights movements anyways. You know, I've been a part of multiple women's groups. So I was very much aware of this issue. But when it hit home, I think I couldn't keep quiet any longer. So I said, yeah, high time we had the petition. We don't want to shame your husband, but could he do rather more in the house? Neither do I want to shame my husband, but yes, he definitely would.

He should be doing much more in the house. So this is not about shaming the dear men in our lives. So that is one of the messages that I've been trying to put across, that by talking about our personal experiences, we are not really shaming the men. We are shaming an entire system here. Right, an entire system which allows men to behave in a certain way and expects rather more of women. Absolutely, I completely concur with that. Definitely the way the structures are, families are set up. I think there are these underlying inequities, power dynamics that play out. And the lockdown, in a way, has brought these things in the forefront.

You know, they have been magnified and the way we have experienced it is so much, you know, hard-hitting, perhaps because a lot of the housework that we do now during the lockdown used to be delegated to househel to households whom we would pay and delegate that work. So in a way, on the surface, a kind of balance was maintained. A lot of the inequalities were shoved under the carpet, you know, so to say. But now we can't do that anymore. Right. You've been very clear about this. So before lockdown, your domestic tasks were carried out for you by a woman who would travel to your home. You were paying her, obviously, and she would do the housework for you? Majority of the housework, yes.

Right. And in the interest of transparency, I feel honourable to admit that I will admit, say, I also have somebody who does the cleaning for me at home. There is a certain squeamishness about acknowledging that though, isn't there? I think we all agree on that one. How have you helped the lady who would previously have come to your house to work for you? Do you pay her during lockdown? What's happened? Absolutely, absolutely, absolutely. We have to make sure that while the women who were coming over here, one of the ladies who was in my house, definitely she's been paid during all these last

four, five months now. And that's a given. That's a humanitarian crisis right now that we are going through. So we have to take care that, you know, we are not exploiting in that way. However, I must over here say that I also realize that these women who are coming out and working are grossly underpaid. It's when we have to do the work ourselves that we realise that the amount of money, because there is no standard wage system anywhere over here. It's not an organised sector of the domestic workers. So ideally, I would hope for a future where it would be more organised and there would be a minimum pay scale work hours that were calculated.

Yes, so what you're saying is that everything that's happening all over the world is uncovering a lot of, some might say, somewhat uncomfortable issues about the way we've all lived our lives. Ashwini Deshpande is a professor of economics at Ashoka University in Delhi. Ashwini, what do you make of this, the idea of a petition? Well, obviously, it's being done to sort of highlight the problem, but also to cash in on the tremendous personal popularity of the prime minister, because when he says something, it has an impact. So clearly, the petition is trying to cash in on that. But what is interesting is, I mean, I agree, of course, with all the points made earlier. But what is interesting, actually, is that if you look at the data for the first months of the lockdown,

while women have continued to do more housework than men, the gender gap has actually decreased slightly in April of 2020. I don't know if that's permanent or transitory, but I hope it's a little bit of it sticks and shifts the gender norms towards greater equality. So what you're saying is that actually in lockdown, men have been doing more, not as much as women, but more? More relative to what they were doing before lockdown. Right. And how do you know that? Because I've looked at a data set that interviewed a group of men and women in December of 2019,

and the same group was interviewed in April of 2020, which is the first month of lockdown. And they were asked about how much time they spent on domestic work. And I've analyzed the difference over the two periods. And I find that men have increased their hours in one month, admittedly, and that most of that increase has been driven by men who were unemployed in April. So the fact that the lockdown resulted in job losses,

some of that had this inadvertent positive effect of the unemployed men putting in a little bit more work in terms of the household. But having said all that, women are doing more housework, even under lockdown. And are you including childcare in that? Well, the question is not very specific. It just says, how much time do you include? How much time did you spend doing domestic work? So whatever that means to the respondents. So it could be that for women, it means a very different set of chores as compared to the men, that's possible.

And men exaggerate, as we've seen in surveys in the United States. But because it's the same men and women who were also interviewed in December, there is greater credibility to these numbers. Right. So do you think then, Sabana, that your petition and the research that Ashwini has just explained there will mean that society has made a significant and permanent shift? I would like to believe that because, you know, if you look back on history, I think any major unprecedented kind of event that has happened, for example, the World War. I mean, it has seen a shift in the way women's workforce participation has taken place.

So I'm hoping that post this lockdown phase, we will see more men participating in housework. That I do not know to what extent that is going to be. I'm quite sure it is not going to be an equal distribution. However, there will be an improvement. I'm hoping there is going to be an improvement. But might that also mean an impact on those much poorer women who were being paid, however little, but were still being paid to clean houses like your own? Might it mean they might lose out on employment in the future? I don't see that happening.

I don't have statistics or data to share on it. But what I see around me in my neighborhood and friends, I think everyone is waiting for them to return to work. So, yes, there have been multiple cases where we see, you know, we stay in these cooperating housing societies, and there's been a tremendous pressure on management committees to allow domestic helps to come back to work. So I think it won't be a loss of jobs for them, really. However, probably a little better distribution of whatever is being done at home between the

man and the woman. I don't want to waste this opportunity to talk live to two women in India at this time. I really want to get a snapshot from you both about what life is like now. So if you could just tell us in Mumbai, Sabana, very briefly, how are things? How are people doing? I think in Mumbai, especially Maharashtra, as far as cases and figures go in India, they are pretty high. So we are being very, very careful in everyone's home. No one's really going to work except a few essential service providers. So most of the people are still working from home.

And that has been a huge lifestyle shift for everybody and what I see around is see I'm going to talk a little more about the housework aspect and say that the pressure pressure on women is tremendous and we are seeing a huge increase in you know issues related to that which includes mental health issues and that definitely we can see the impact of that. At the same time, people are very exhausted, tired, my friends, myself. I mean, and of course, the whole employment, the job loss aspect is also there. So many people are, I mean, so many women have lost their jobs during this lockdown. So there are multiple levels of impacts, if I may say so.

And at the same time, while we are talking about this, and because, you know, my petition talks to the prime minister directly, I'm trying to address, I think we also realise that how the state really needs to kind of back up and fill in the gaps, the infrastructure gaps. We need better childcare. We need other things to be looked into. I think in every nation, but in India, I can tell you in Mumbai. Yeah, a lot of what you said will ring only to true with many of our listeners in the UK and elsewhere, I'm sure. And Ashwini, in Delhi, are people fearful or do they have faith in Prime Minister Modi to help them out?

In Delhi, actually, the situation is improving now pretty clearly. So the number of new cases every day has gone down significantly. So there's a cautious optimism about we might be on the declining part of the curve as far as COVID is concerned. As far as work is concerned, all those like myself who are lucky enough to still have a job and can work from home. We are working from home. Personally, I'm lucky to be in a marriage where my husband shares more than his equal share of housework. So if there's inequality, it's slightly in the other direction.

But it is true what Subarna said about stories about domestic abuse, domestic violence, women being locked inside with their abusers, job losses, all of this sort of a culmination of factors is coming together to produce a slightly gloomy picture of when will this all end. And I'm sure that's the situation everywhere. In terms of your earlier question that you asked about domestic workers, I don't think they're going to lose their jobs. Because when we talk about equal sharing, it's over and above this heavy duty work that gets done in Indian homes every day.

So I think we will, Indian families will continue to have help to help with the bigger chores. But what will be really nice if we saw that in decision making, in planning, in little bits like shopping and cooking, if in these matters, childcare even, if there's greater equality of sharing housework, that would be fantastic. Thank you both so much for talking to us this morning. For us, I know it's the afternoon with you.

Ashwini Deshpande, Professor of Economics at Ashoka University in Delhi. And you also heard from Subhanagosh, who is in Mumbai in India. Thanks to both. Tomorrow on Woman's Hour, we're starting a new series about scars and about how women feel about the scars they bear. And tomorrow you can hear from Jane, who talks about life after contracting a flesh eating bug. So you can hear from her on the programme tomorrow. Jenny talked last week about the 40th anniversary of the fantastic Willie Russell play, Educating Rita, and about the impact on you. And we have had so many brilliant emails

about women returning to education in later life on the strength of Educating Rita. So we're devoting an entire programme to it. That will be our Bank Holiday Monday programme in late August. Thank you. Now, a lot of concern during the coronavirus and particularly during lockdown about the rise in plastic use. And actually, if you just go out anywhere at the moment, you will see discarded one-use masks just littering the pavement. Ella and Amy Meek are sisters from Nottingham. They're only 15 and 17 and they are the founders of Kids Against Plastic. They're going to be speaking this Wednesday at an online climate change forum, Race Against Climate Change, hosted by the all-electric Formula E race team Envision Virgin Racing. So Ella and Amy, welcome to the programme.

How are you both? Thank you for having us. We're really good, thank you. Fantastic to hear you both sounding so energised this morning. We need a bit of that, I think. So tell us, first of all, Ella, if you don't mind, why you feel so passionateised this morning. We need a bit of that, I think. So tell us, first of all, Ella, if you don't mind, why you feel so passionate about this? What happened? Did you see something? Did you go somewhere? Well, our parents have always brought us up to really care about the environment and the planet and love wildlife and nature in general. So when we were researching

plastic pollution four years ago now, where no one really knew about this issue, we saw how terrible it was and how bad of a global problem it was. So when we knew about this huge issue, we knew we couldn't just turn a blind eye to it and carry on like normal. We had to spread awareness so that the people knew like we did. Right. And is it the single use plastic that you're particularly passionate about? Yes. yeah. We understand that plastic is a really amazing material. It's really durable and flexible. So we understand how good of a material it is,

but it's these single-use items like single-use plastic bottles that could be replaced easily with other materials or just use reusables instead. And it's those kind of items that get discarded after five minutes yet last forever that really we think could be changed. Yeah, Amy, the really impressive thing about you both is that there are lots of people who feel very angry about things, perhaps just for a couple of seconds, and they pack it away and they get on with the rest of their life. You two have actually done something. Can you explain the difference between just noticing and getting cross

and then forgetting about it and actually harnessing that annoyance and making progress on an issue? Yeah, I think for us, when we first found out about plastic in particular, we saw from future generations' perspective, this is an issue that we are going to inherit from our parents. So, if we don't do anything about it, then, you know, we're going to inherit a massive plastic legacy. But we totally understand that it is really hard to go from learning about this issue to actually doing something because it is so immense. There's so many different streams of plastic pollution and plastic is everywhere in our everyday lives.

You just have to go to the supermarket to see that. So, it can be hard to find that link between this is a massive problem, but what can I do? Which is why when we always try and encourage people to reduce plastic usage, we never say, look, go completely plastic-free because it is so difficult, it's time-consuming, and it's unmanageable for most people, including ourselves. So, we always encourage people to become what we call plastic clever, which is where we encourage people to become what we call plastic clever, which is where we encourage people to stop using four items in particular, which are cups and lids, straws, bottles and bags, because it's a really easy first step to take. And all you need

to do instead is just swap in reusable items. Right. OK. And in fact, you set yourselves the task of, well, you started with the real basics. You went round collecting rubbish. How many pieces, Amy, did you collect? Well, we set ourselves the goal of picking up 100,000 pieces, which is one for every sea mammal killed by plastic in the oceans every year. And we're now currently on just over 77,000 pieces of plastic. So over three quarters of the way there. Well, Ella, do you ever just get i don't know you just think oh i'll spend the day looking at my phone instead uh you you must have you must have days like that well i think everyone has days where things can seem too much but we have each other which is really good because if either of us are a bit unmotivated that day we always

have the other person to say oh no come on this is a bigger issue than just wanting to relax for a day so yeah I mean we do take breaks and we we make sure that we do have a balance between our campaigning and normal lives and school as well so but it is lucky that we do have each other to help balance it out yeah I imagine that is a big help and do you think Ella that actually lockdown has it's put us all back, hasn't it, really, in terms of the environment and our use particularly of single use plastic? Yeah, definitely. I mean, at this point with coronavirus happening, we do need single use items like face masks and gloves just to make sure the virus isn't spread between people and we completely understand that but there have been steps back in terms of for example coffee cups you need you can't bring in a reusable coffee cup in some places now and luckily that has been proven that it doesn't carry like germs because obviously you put boiling water in so now these places are accepting reusable coffee mugs again but there were a few steps back that were a bit frustrating,

but we did see why it was happening. You're both fantastically articulate and brilliant performers. Amy, I was watching your TED Talk on YouTube yesterday and the audience were, well, they were clearly very impressed by you, but they were older. And I do wonder sometimes whether people of my age and frankly, 15, 20 years younger, do we get it sufficiently? Well, I don't think that necessarily it's kind of an issue that some generations get, some generations don't. I think that's quite

generous of you, actually, I have to say, but carry on. Well, I think, you know, in every generation, there are always going to be people that are really motivated to tackle this issue and some people that aren't as motivated or you know don't care so much about the environment and I think our generation has got a bit of a reputation now for being quite eco-conscious which is great because I think you know especially social media and spreading awareness of these issues you know I think a lot more people know about them now which is great but I think it's kind of a bit unfair to point the finger at certain generations because, you know, I don't think anyone purposefully, for example, created plastic to

think, oh, you know, a few generations down the line, this is going to be a massive problem that they can't control. So, actually, I think we try not to point the finger and actually think that everyone has a massive potential to reduce their plastic usage and to, you know, reduce their carbon footprint. It's not a kind of pitting people against each other. And on the issue of disposable masks, because I'm very conscious, obviously, we are wearing them on the tube, for example, on buses in London right now. Should I, I should really try and buy a more upmarket version of the mask, shouldn't I really, not use the disposables? Well, there are reusable masks out there, which is great. And you can even make them at home just out of cloth, which is really great. It doesn't have to be something

that's really expensive. Because it has been frustrating, especially when we've been going on litter picks more recently to sort of see a real increase in the number of face masks that we've been picking up. They're everywhere. Yeah. And, you know, there's been news articles now about how face masks are going to be a really prominent form of plastic pollution in the ocean. And it's really horrific to see that really quick change from, you know, not seeing much of this litter to actually being it being so prolific. So, yeah, we definitely encourage people to use reusables where possible, but at least please don't drop your face mask or your gloves on the ground as litter. Yeah, please don't. I couldn't, I absolutely agree. Thank you both very, very much. Brilliant to talk to you both. Amy and Ella Meek, and they are part of Kids

Against Plastic. Really good to have them on the programme this morning. Zara McFarlane can join us now. Hi, Zara. Good morning to you. Good morning. How are you doing? I'm well, thanks. And you? Very well, thank you. Great. Lovely to talk to you too. British jazz soul singer and songwriter and vocal coach as well.

And we'll talk about that. MOBA award winner. And your new album is called Songs of an Unknown Tongue, inspired by travels to Jamaica, which we'll also talk about. And we'll play a little bit of your new single as called Songs of an Unknown Tongue, inspired by travels to Jamaica, which we'll also talk about. And we'll play a little bit of your new single as well in a moment. But can you just set yourself up for us, Sarah? You're from Dagenham. And yes, I always make the assumption that people like you have had such success must be from musical families, but not so much in your case. Not at all in my case, unfortunately.

So what? No no musician no violin lessons no no piano in the house nothing um well I did have piano lessons myself yeah but my parents were not musical are not musical did they encourage you definitely my mum definitely encouraged me my sister with whatever we wanted to do really if I'm honest so music was something that we both liked and we got the opportunity to do, really, if I'm honest. So music was something that we both liked. And we got the opportunity to do piano lessons and dancing and different things like that. Yeah, and the young Zara was writing songs when you were really quite little. How young were you when you first started?

Yeah, I started writing songs when I was about 11 years old. What did you write about at 11, just out of interest? I remember seeing something on the news. I think it was about Ireland and bombings and things that were happening. And I started writing a song that was kind of like a Heal the World song. You know, Michael Jackson, Heal the World. It was a song with that kind of theme inspired by something that I'd seen on the news. Right, OK.

So you would take things that were going on around you or stuff you'd heard and do you go up to your room and just spend a bit of quiet time getting your head down and writing it out? Yeah, that was just something that I would do when I was bored, really, on a Sunday or on a Saturday or something like that. Yeah, everybody should be bored on a Sunday during their childhood, Zara. Because it can be very creative. OK, let's hear the new single.

This is a little bit of Black Treasure. Here we go. Great. First you see something you like An exit marks the spot On a quest to find What you have not got You say I hide away Far away, far away, far away, yeah

But an exit knocks the spot I know you feel, know you feel, know you feel Like a treasure You think I need you but you really need I Like a treasure I know you feel, know you feel, know you feel Black treasure You want me to want you just as you want me

That's Zara McFarlane's track Black Treasure, which she describes as a declaration, proclamation and celebration of black Britishness and womanhood. Zara, just expand on that for me a little bit. Yeah, so this song, Black Treasure, was inspired by the idea, or it really explores how the echoes of colonialism still resonate in society today. And I'm using different images of like voyage, treasure hunting, British Empire, taking and staking claim. And the idea of Black

Treasure for me is the idea of my history, my culture, my skin, my soul, my thoughts, my music. All of this is the Black Treasure that I'm talking about. And tell me too about that trip to Jamaica because that was very significant, wasn't it? Yeah, so I got a chance to go to Jamaica to do some research on early Jamaican folk music in 2017. I was really interested in finding out what music was happening ideally in the 1800s and I discovered, well I got the chance to speak to a lady called Marjorie Wiley who is the lead folk expert really in Jama in Jamaican folk music. And she taught me about music such as Bracken's Party, John Canoe, Etu, Dinky Minnie, all these different styles of music that I didn't know anything about.

And I gather that there's, it sounds incredible, there's an audio archive that you can visit in Kingston. So I went to a few different places. She actually performed some of these musics to me in person because a lot of them are rhythm-led on percussion and they have dance and things that go with them and she performed some of the rhythms for me while I was with her. But I also went on to the National Library.

I went to a place called the Institute of Jamaica and there I was able to get some archival footage, video footage of some of these traditions happening actually as field research. I saw people doing that field research in the videos within the community. And then also there was some different audio recordings that I got to hear as well.

And you've used all this and you've weaved it into the album. Yeah, so we used those ideas. We tried to replicate some of those rhythms. And every single song pretty much is based on one of the rhythms. We took about five different rhythms from there and implemented those into the album. Yeah, I mean, did it all leave you feeling, well, you tell me,

I mean, totally ignorant of all this? Was it the rhythms, were they things you'd never heard before or just things you had heard but done in a completely different way? I hadn't personally heard of them before, especially the names of them. But the thing is with them, dancing associated with them as well. Like some of them, John Canoe, for example, is a celebration more based around Christmastime. Bracken's Party is something that is celebrated for Emancipation Day in Jamaica. But then you have others like Dinky Minnie and Etu

that are more like death rites. So if someone has passed away, you may have that period between their death and their burial. And some of these celebrations happen during that time as well. So there's a bit of a mix of how they are used traditionally. Right. And I did mention that you teach singing. Am I right in saying that you believe that you can teach singing to just about anybody? Well, I mean, I can can't sing but are you seriously suggesting

that everybody can or could be taught to enjoy singing at least definitely to me singing is purely making noises out of your mouth if you can do that then you can get a chance to just summed up my entire working life there um no god but there are some people I mean they may want to sing but nobody wants to hear them singing. I include myself in that. All of it can be improved, definitely. Some people have a slight more affinity to it than others at the beginning. But I do think it's something that can be taught, yes. Is it partly that a lot of us are just a bit repressed and we can't even let ourselves go vocally?

Is that half the problem? To be honest, when I'm teaching adults, which is who I teach the most now, that is the biggest problem, is expression, self-expression. And a lot of it is just confidence. And I do a lot of work on that, more than singing sometimes. It's kind of coaching people to be relaxed, you know, let go, all those kinds of things.

Well, at the moment, I mean, I don't know if you've heard the rest of the programme, but talking to the two women in India, for example, the problems that everybody's going through, well, everyone is going through them. They are universal. Wherever you are in the world, everyone, frankly, is feeling a bit lousy at the moment. Yes. Does singing and, well, music must help. Does singing help?

Yes, singing is meant to be something that is very uplifting for the spirit and for people in general. And I think for me personally, I think it's that self-expression element. I think as adults, you lose that a little bit. You know, in life, you have to be so restricted in these different settings as a parent, maybe as for me as a teacher, for whatever it is, the job that you do for your work. You know, you've got a lot of rules to follow, certain kind of demeanour that you want to project out to the world. And I think you lose the element of just expressing yourself,

opening up and sharing something with people sometimes. But music, or singing in particular, can help that. Well, let's hope we can all get back to singing wherever we choose to do it as soon as possible. Thank you very much indeed for talking to us, Zara. And the best of luck with the album. That's Zara McFarlane. Her new album of songs is called

Songs of an Unknown Tongue and Black Treasure was the name of the track we played you. That's Zara McFarlane and her album is called Songs of an Unknown Tongue and the track we played during that conversation was her latest single, Black Treasure. Now, your

emails start with rubbish. This is from Sue. Thank you for that feature on plastic and the amazing Amy and Ella. Yeah, they were very impressive, weren't they? You discussed the impact of the pandemic on plastic use. Well, I live by the seaside in Hastings. Since lockdown ended and people have flocked to the beach, there is a noticeable increase in the amount of plastic litter

that covers the beach and the prom every day. Some people urgently need re-educating, says Sue. Well, let's hope some of them, any of them, were listening to Ella and Amy on the programme today. And from Lucy, re-all the plastic. I think the supermarket home deliveries have gone well over the top with all their plastic bags. I had one the other day with just one pair of plastic wrapped marigolds inside it, which I mean, that is ridiculous, isn't it? Absolutely crazy.

And on the subject of housework, specifically India, here's Joanna who says it's an issue in almost every society, certainly not just India, but women do need to think about the way they bring up their sons. If boys learn that cleaning and tidying is part of keeping your home habitable, and it's not a gender specific chore, they'll grow up to accept this. Thank you for that. And from Andrew, both presenter and guest made a mistake by referring to the housework that might be done by somebody else as my housework. It's not yours. It's the household's chores. While women take ownership of it, men and women will not see it as a shared responsibility. There's Andrew putting us right there. Thank you for that. And on to the subject of tampons, which is where we began the conversation. Pat says, I wish this ad had

been around 50 years ago when I was at university. Tampon use was far less common then. And I remember a group of friends taking over the toilets in our hall of residence, each trying to stick a tampon in and giving a running commentary. The comments ranged from, ugh, to how far can you push it in? That far? It hurts. Do you have to have had sex first? And I don't think I'm big enough for this, and so on. I did not get fully confident with tampons for several years after that, and I really would have welcomed some external help. Good luck, says Pat, to the young women of today. Thank you for that, Pat.

From Hannah, last month my daughter got her first period. It was a time of celebration in our house. Her aunties and her grandkids sent her cards and gifts to mark this special occasion. I want her to be proud of her body and how amazing women are. I haven't seen that ad, but it does sound brilliant. We need to talk about menstruation and our anatomy much, much more. As a midwife, I'm always amazed at how many people, how many women are so unfamiliar with their body

and reluctant to use the words vulva and vagina. We should be so proud of our bodies. Attitudes have got to change, says Hannah. Thank you for that. And from Jason, this outrage over the tampon ad in Ireland makes me so angry. I'm a gay man who grew up back in the 80s when AIDS was decimating gay men just a few years older than me. I remember the furore at the idea of encouraging condom usage on mainstream media. Nevertheless, it went on to save millions of lives, of course. That clip of the ad you played just sounded cheeky and fun,

and it sought to normalise discussions around periods. And if women are suffering because they're not using tampons correctly, they have a right to hear it, says Jason. Jason, thank you for that, and thanks for emailing. Anyone can, of course, whenever they like, via our website. Not everyone liked the ad. Gabrielle doesn't like it much. I think it's coarse and cringeworthy.

That's my objection. Why the need to vulgarise everything, she says. Is this really the only way to speak to younger women? When I discovered tampons as a young woman, I thought they were heaven and I've always used them, but I don't think it needs to be this vulgar. From Anne, I liked your piece on the tampon ad this morning causing a stir in Ireland. I haven't seen it, but I certainly got the message from the clip you played. I was at boarding school in Ireland years ago and the cool girl in our group was the first of us to test out the tampons

and we waited with bated breath for her report. It was very uncomfortable, she said, and on further questioning about the whole thing, it turned out she'd left the cardboard tube inside her. Her call status obviously took a nosedive, but actually, says Anne, it was really quite tragic and just goes to show how important this ad actually is and I think frankly

well overdue. Thank you Woman's Hour, you're the best says Anne in London. I'm now including bits like that in the emails in the podcast because we're going a bit you know we're just going a bit self-congratulatory in the coronavirus period I think just because we we feel the need for the love from the audience. Thanks to everybody who does keep in touch with us. We really do appreciate it. I say this a lot, but I don't think we can really say it enough. We'd be nothing without you telling us what you want to hear on the programme, which is why we have Listener Week.

And this week is coming up on the 24th of August. And I'm really looking forward to that week. I'll be there all five days of Listener Week this year. And I really hope you feel that you can get involved. So if there's something you want us to do on the programme during the course of that week, please do email us. Loads of people have, but there's still time for you. bbc.co.uk forward slash Women's Hour.

Thanks to everybody involved this morning, and by everybody, I mean Siobhan and Matilda and Kirsty and Di, who seem to be in charge of lots of the content of the programme today, and she will want to be mentioned. Most of us, or some of us, or at least two of us, are back tomorrow. Make sure you're there as well. Thanks for listening. From the one village behind the mountain. Imagine you're living a very different life on the other side of the world.

You feel I cannot do anything. You live silently in the shadows. Just stay home, bring children, make food. You live silently in the shadows. And then someone takes your child, disappears into the night with your little girl, and you can't stay silent any longer. And you'll do whatever it takes, travel thousands of miles across the globe to find your missing daughter. This is my child. I look after this child like tiger.

Just go everywhere. Join me, Sue Mitchell, for this gripping new BBC Radio 4 podcast series. Subscribe to Girl Taken on BBC Sounds. I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake.

No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.