Woman's Hour - Kingship, Fibromyalgia, Trump, Ireland abortion

Episode Date: April 27, 2023

In 2018 the people of Ireland voted to repeal the 8th amendment and grant women access to safe and free abortions up to 12 weeks into pregnancy. Ireland was promised ‘excellent’ abortion services but what is the reality 5 years on? Yesterday an independent review of abortion services was released that proposed 10 major changes to legislation. Dr Deirdre Duffy, a Senior Lecturer in Sociology at Lancaster University talks to Anita about the review.As the nation prepares for the coronation, Anita Rani considers the issue of gender and sovereignty. The British people have only experienced Queenship so whilst the coronation of Charles III marks a return to the more traditional role of kingship, it’s a big shift for the public. She’ll be joined by Tracy Borman the author of numerous books and co-curator of Historic Royal Palaces and Professor Anna Whitehorn from City, University of London and Director of the Centre for the Study of Modern Monarchy.The former President of the United States, Donald Trump, is facing a trial over an allegation that he raped an advice columnist nearly three decades ago. Jean Carroll, who is 79, is suing Mr Trump for allegedly assaulting her in a Manhattan department store in the 1990s, a charge the former president has denied. The civil trial, which started yesterday, is expected to last two weeks. Amanda Taub from the New York Times joins Anita to talk about how this historical case can be brought after several decades.Under Pressure is an occasional series which looks at the stress put on relationships when life happens. Carla and Brendon met at school, their lives looked to be on one track and then things changed. Jo Morris went to meet them and Carla shared her personal experience about when her fibromyalgia, a long-term condition which can cause widespread, persistent pain, first began.Presenter: Anita Rani Producer: Rebecca Myatt Studio manager: Andrew Garrett

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Anita Rani and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Good morning. The coronation is fast approaching and on the programme today we'll be getting into a fascinating conversation about sovereignty and gender. After 70 years of a woman on the throne, are we ready to have a man? Apparently they've done the job before but this morning i'd actually like to hear from you about your plans for the day are you throwing a street party will the bunting be out will he be making the coronation quiche

and settling down in front of the telly or pottering with the radio on in the background are you off down the pub making the most of the long back holiday bank holiday or could you not care less and won't be engaging with any of it? I would love to hear your thoughts and feelings about this. How do you feel about having a man on the throne? King Charles III on the throne. Get in touch in the usual way.

84844 is the number to text. You can contact me via social media. We're at BBC Woman's Hour and you can email us through our website or you can send a WhatsApp message or a voice note using the number 03700 100 444. Remember, data charges may apply depending on your provider. So you might want to use Wi-Fi if you can. And terms and conditions can be found on our website.

Also on the programme this morning, we'll be hearing about the woman who's suing Donald Trump for allegedly raping her in a department store in Manhattan in the 1990s. But of course, Woman's Hour wouldn't be Woman's Hour without your thoughts and opinions and real lived experiences about anything we are talking about on the programme today. So that text number once again, 84844. But first, in 2018, the people of Ireland voted to repeal the Eighth Amendment and grant women access to safe and free abortions up to 12 weeks into pregnancy. Ireland was promised excellent abortion services, but what's the reality five years on? Yesterday, an independent review of abortion services was released that proposed 10 major changes to legislation. To talk about this, I'm joined by Dr Deirdre Duffy. She's a senior lecturer in sociology at Lancaster University and was involved in putting together the evidence

based for the review. Welcome to Woman's Hour Deirdre. Let's get into this. How different is life for women in Ireland now compared to five years ago? Good morning. Thank you for having me on. So obviously, as you said, it was a historic change five years ago now. And we were tasked to, like you say, to look into what was the reality in terms of provision, which is my substantive role, my team's role was to look into if you're looking for an abortion in Ireland, what you expect and unfortunately despite the huge effort of committed providers who've done Trojan work setting up a service in that environment is not easy and it was a whole system change it does depend where you live and there are a number of people who are groups who are marginalized by current things as they are.

So if you live in a rural area, for example, you are very unlikely or it's very difficult to have local access. And that's the kind of key point. Access is not just about the law. It's about can you get to a GP? And the report, which is available online, just to give you a sense of some of the quotes, it's a free point of access. But like one general provider said to us, it's not a free service if you have to pay 100 euros to get there. And some of the resolutions to those problems put forward, like telemedicine, so at home or self-managed abortion, where you don't have to go in to an office for two appointments. Actually, they don't help people who may live, may be homeless, may live with others because not everyone is able to have an abortion in their own home. That's not an easy

thing to do. And that raises the other point which is that of the 19 uh hospitals uh maternity hospitals now and only 11 uh offer services access to surgical so inpatient services in the whole of ireland only 11 hospitals 11 of the maternity hospitals offer it under it now all hospitals and and on clinicians faced with an emergency a life or death scenario would obviously have to have to provide but only 11 why why has that happened in with it's five years and only 11 maternity hospitals offer the service when they were Ireland was promised excellent abortion services? I mean, people are striving for excellence. This isn't bad doctors doing bad things, but health systems are strained.

Ireland is experiencing a workforce crisis, so that's point one to make. The other is that the push towards ensuring all of those 19 hospitals hasn't happened, unfortunately. The staff just aren't available to cover that or staff who are willing to provide. Now, that might not be due to conscientious objection. Actually, a major finding of this study was it's just simple workload capacity. So you don't have enough people.

Yeah, not enough people, not enough staff, not enough money. Let's talk about the geographical inequalities that you brought up at the top. That's been highlighted in the report. Found that some areas' services were untenable. What's going wrong in these areas? So, I mean, the simple case with any health system, really from our perspective as a provider study, comes down to staff and comes down

to those simple things that all health care depends on are they're available what makes it untenable or potentially untenable and this is areas to feed forward so hopefully our recommendations will be taken on board and these would be resolved is that you have very small teams that might be one or two people so just to give again a sense of a flavor you know if there's this is a direct quote when you've a lead person or clinical nurse they're fantastic but if they're on holiday they're not there or the person referring the gp referring is off the next day it gets lost so you're talking about one or two people in some counties holding up referral and provision for an entire pathway i've got i've got mon monahan has one gp and has a contract to provide abortion services

for population of just under 65 000 people yes so this is one of the issues that is difficult, is that the contracts are given for a GP surgery. So within that one contract, you might have two to three GPs working in that, say, centre. However, we don't know that. We actually don't know. That's the number of contracts. So in others, you might have, you know, 20 contracts in a county or 10 contracts, but they might be one to one. That might be one GP in one practice. And we know from like in the UK, in England and Wales, the GP sometimes work alone. They don't always work in large clinics. So the borders are are very problematic the uh the southeast

and the effects of that like this all has knock-on effects right so if you have somebody who is uh needs to go into hospital because they're at um you know over 10 weeks gestation so they need to go into hospital care asking them to come in from two counties away doesn't make it a nine to five or 365 days a year. Another quote in the report is from a midwife coordinator said, there's no point in me making a 9am appointment when somebody can't get there at nine o'clock in the morning. So these are, but these are really practical recommendations and that's a really I think a critical thing for us in that the chair who's integrated all of these findings is it's highlighting that the issues aren't necessarily legal issues it was never the law

it was always access. Can you tell us about the three-day wait and what you're recommending around that explain what that is. So I can't really speak to what the legal recommendation is because I'm not a lawyer. So that's just something to flag. The issue with the three-day wait, which is as it currently stands, there is a mandatory three-day pause between the first and second consultation with the journeyman practitioner. So if somebody goes to have an abortion,

they have one appointment, they have to wait three days, they have a second appointment. And that was introduced during the initial drafting of the legislation. What we found with that is, first, the health providers who participated in research for this and previously published research don't feel it's necessary.

Now, that might not be all providers, but published data from providers showing that providers themselves don't feel that is medically necessary and they're not convinced that it serves a benefit. The substantive issue from our perspective is that, again, it's not a 365-day service. So a three-day wait can turn into a four-day wait, can turn into a five-day wait over a weekend and holiday. And in real terms, that means that somebody who's entitled to access an abortion may just time out. There is a 12-week limit so if you're coming up to that deadline, if providers are trying to make it work and that's great but you can't rely on people trying to make it work with the best will in the world, they need more support and there needs kind of a reflection on well what, what are the practical implications there? So for some, access has improved, but others are still struggling.

What about women? Are we seeing them travelling abroad? Yes, travel still happens. And we have the data on travel documented and we were able to gather from the place that reported, which is England to Wales, some to Scotland and to the Netherlands. It's worth flagging as well, you mentioned at the start that this was Ireland. This is the Republic of Ireland study,

so worth just flagging that. So people at an earlier point, so if you find out you're pregnant and you decide to opt for an abortion and you're under nine weeks, that figure has dropped fallen off and there is a big tail end most people are able to access under that what we see is actually very little change and in some cases an increase now it might be a small increase but Ireland is a small country

um in people who were over 10 to 12 weeks, who were over 13 weeks, and certainly at 20 weeks over. So they would be seeking it for a fetal anomaly, but also not just fetal anomaly, but also maternal health reasons. So that could be a mental health reason. That could be somebody who's had a chronic condition that puts them at severe risk, like a heart condition, for example, combined. So these are people who potentially would be entitled.

But like in England and Wales, abortion sits within the criminal law. So if a doctor gets an interpretation wrong, they could face significant backlash. And that's resulting from our data in people feeling they can't make those judgments. And the net result is women are still traveling. Another issue raised in the report is conscientious objection. One of the findings is that women are being misled and misinformed by clinicians seeking to block treatment.

How should conscientious objection be handled within the health care setting? So there's a lot. it's worth flagging that and and as a starting point conscientious objection is something that most people including myself including research in terms of people have a right to exercise their conscience right in any nobody should feel necessarily um that they can't talk about that the The issue is the management of it. Ireland has regulations on that if you have a conscientious objection, the Code of Ethics for Medical Practitioners says that you have to refer in a timely manner.

If you're a conscientious objector or you are a non-providing member of staff, you still have responsibilities in terms of education training knowing who to refer to knowing those processes what we are seeing is that uh conscientious objection is not always being well managed people may not necessarily have engaged with training to know about what their legal responsibilities are and there's very little because of those staff crisis issues and because of how legislation is framed you can obstruct relatively easily and and the reports from from clinicians who who were spoken to in this study is that i think the chair the chair's phrasing is that they act with impunity

or they can act with impunity and that obstruction might take but obstruction can take can take many forms so if you if you were approaching me and we all need referrals i think from time to time we can all sympathize with that position of needing a referral but if i don't give you the accurate information if i i can bounce you around the houses for a referral and then I've obstructed your care. Now, that might not be, you know, a bad person doing a bad thing. That might be just a poor understanding and poor engagement. So do you have a recommendation around that? I think there needs to be a bigger conversation about how to manage the relationship between people who are not providing and who are providing.

And there needs to be a conversation about what are the limits of conscientious objection and that you cannot. So a hospital can't be a conscientious objector. But as you say, it's subtler than that, isn't it? Because someone within the hospital could be. It could be. you also need to address and our recommendation overall is you need to address the number of staff available because one of the issues is which allows people to act with impunity and again this needs to be unpacked because we can't speak this for everyone in every setting and that would be a doom and it was so ingrained in the culture for such a long time it's only been in the last five years so how do you now you know under people will still have that thing well actually it's interesting you

mentioned that because of my previous public for published work with uh with health providers in who were there in 1967 when the law changed in england and wales they said the law had changed but not in people's heads and i think that's the case you still have that the law changed in England and Wales, they said the law had changed, but not in people's heads. And I think that's the case. You still have that. The law has changed, but not in the heads of everyone. And so it takes a real culture shift, and that does take time, but it also takes management.

And it takes people being really clear. So what have the Irish government said? How likely are they going to take up the recommendations? I can't comment on the legal process. It's been forwarded to the Health Committee. But what is really good to see is that the government have said that they don't see it as acceptable that public hospitals, so the fact that only 11 out of 19, as I said, provide, they don't see that as acceptable.

So there is going to be a programme to increase that. They've also said they're going to try and increase the workforce quite substantially, particularly in general provision to 6,000, which would be phenomenal. And just to put that into context, there's a shortfall of between 1,500 to to two thousand GPs in Ireland it has that workforce crisis and there are only 400 just over 400 contracts for provision so increasing that number

is what they've said looking and seeing that actually obstruction through misleading information or not adhering to legal responsibilities is not acceptable so they're the recommendations the other recommendation that we that we made and this will be debated um it's something that northern ireland has has pursued northern ireland decriminalized took it out of the criminal law as did columbia took it out of the criminal law so um one of the recommendations the chair has made to avoid um you know that chill effect that you see where where where health providers have to make really definitive and difficult judgments in really challenging circumstances to uh revisit criminalization and to consider whether uh abortion should be taken out of the criminal law so health providers feel that, who are trained in this?

They won't come back. It won't come back. It's not a case that they will, you know, make things on their own or make decisions like that will lead to the impact, but that we enable providers and we enable the evidence to guide decisions. And for them to be able to make the decision. And be able to make those decisions. Deirdre, thank you so much for speaking to us this morning.

Thank you for that. Thank you for having me on. Dr. Deirdre Duffy, Senior Lecturer in Sociology at Lancaster University. Your thoughts on anything you're hearing today, and particularly if you have personal experience, 84844. If you do get in touch with us or if you'd like to email the programme, if you do have a personal experience, maybe we can get you on the programme to talk to us at a later date. Now, the British people have known nothing other than a female sovereign for seven decades.

So whilst the coronation of King Charles III marks a return to the more traditional state of kingship, it's a big shift for the public. His mother, Queen Elizabeth, was a constant in the lives of the nation, which has made me wonder about the whole idea of sovereignty and gender. Well, I'm joined now on the line by two eminent historians, Tracy Borman and the author of numerous books and co-curator of historic royal palaces. Her latest is Anne Boleyn and Elizabeth I,

the mother and daughter who changed history, and Anna Whitelock, who is Professor of History of Monarchy at City, University of London and Director of the Centre for the Study of Modern Monarchy. Well, I spoke to them both this morning and began by asking Tracey if she thinks people have fully accepted that the Queen is gone. I don't think we have, actually. It still doesn't quite trip off the tongue, saying the king. And, of course, Elizabeth II was around for so long, longer than any other sovereign in British history. So it's bound to take a while, and it's always a destabilising time,

a change of reign. That's nothing new throughout history. But, yeah, I think there is still this sense of lack of acceptance, really, that she really has gone. I was reading a YouGov poll earlier, which still has the Queen as the most popular member of the royal family, Charles, down in fifth place. Do you think the coronation is going to boost his popularity?

I think it will. And you definitely see this in the history of the monarchy. The coronation is the big chance to make a statement to make your mark as king or queen it's like the ultimate PR stunt really you don't get a bigger show than the coronation and that's why so much thought goes into it and every single coronation although it's based on a tradition dating back to 973, it's all got a slightly different feel to it, according to the tastes of the monarch. So I'm fascinated to see what's going to happen on the 6th of May. Because historically, Anna, a coronation has been used, as Tracey just said, as a PR stunt to beef up the popularity of the monarch or the queen.

I'm thinking of Henry VIII and Anne Boleyn. Can you tell us a bit about that? Well, indeed. I mean, that was another coronation of a king and a queen consort. Of course, it wasn't Henry VIII's first wife, famously, but it was Henry VIII, of course, who established the Church of England. And this coronation is a Church of England and this coronation is a Church of England ceremony and as well as being acclaimed king, Charles is of course head of the Church of England. I mean I totally agree that you know coronations are definitely moments of affirmation and acclamation, that's certainly the intention and not least the procession and it used to be a much larger procession through right through the sort of east end of London, east end or from the east of London through the tower, from the tower through to Westminster.

And it was for people to see their king. You have to be seen to be believed as monarch, as the old adage goes. And so it was very important. But I mean, the question now is how much of this is ceremony rather than sort of genuine feeling I mean I point to particularly the opening of the coronation the recognition where Charles will be presented to the congregation and it's a moment really whereby the Archbishop will say you know do you take this man to be your king the coronation might be thought of as a kind of wedding to the country and of course the ceremonial response is you know yes yes but i think for lots of people there's a sense of well do they is are they giving their consent and perhaps are they giving their informed consent so certainly the palace will hope everything goes without a hitch and coronations in the past have had a few hitches at different

points the crowns have been put on back to front and so on uh bishops falling over yeah exactly i mean and this time of course we're going to have not only on television for the second time the first time was the coronation of the queen but also it's going to be streamed on the internet there's going to be twitter commentary everyone's going to be looking at everything so there literally is nowhere to hide and i was hearing from people at westminster abbey yesterday talking about the rehearsals that are going on the conversations rehearsals with the king himself um and actually talking to i had about 210 and 11 year olds yesterday who had lots of questions about the coronation but going back to the question of favourite royal, actually, it was Prince William. King Charles didn't really feature.

Interesting. Talking of kids, my friend's kid wonderfully said, are we going to have a man as queen now? Isn't that a wonderful comment? I love that. Isn't that fantastic? And I mean, it made me think, I mean, I guess this is why we're having this conversation. To what extent do we actually associate monarchy with a woman and not a man? Because not just of Queen Elizabeth II, because of Victoria and Queen Elizabeth I, these very memorable, lengthy reigns with women at the helm. And we absolutely do. And that's a huge change because women weren't supposed to rule and there have been prejudice against them. Every time a woman has come to the throne, Elizabeth I in particular faced that. There was a feeling of unease. Oh, we've got another queen. We've just had our sister. She was a disaster. And yet Elizabeth I turned it all on its head.

I think she made England fall in love with Queens by the end of her long reign. People realised actually a woman could wield authority effectively. And that's what she absolutely did. So that was a real turning point. And it paved the way for the likes of Queen Anne and even more so Queen Victoria. And and then, of course, our late Queen as well. That is really such a huge change, though, because, as I say, this was a country of primogeniture when the crown passed to the males, not to the females. So the fact that we now see it in the female gender is seismic. Do we associate monarchy with queen now? And what is it about having a woman in that position that is different to having

a man? Well, I think we do associate the monarch with being a queen. And that is a huge difference. The history of the crown, a thousand year history, is dominated by men and the quest for a male heir, because the crown would only pass to a female if there was literally nobody else who could possibly claim that crown. And the fact that we now see it the other way is so significant. But looking back through history, I mean, queens that we now see as glorious, Elizabeth I, my own personal favourite, she came to the throne in 1558, had to face widespread prejudice and hostility, because people didn't want another queen, they just had a half sister Mary, she didn't do a great job of it. And so they were really just biding their time until they could have a king again and then Elizabeth changed everything she won hearts and

minds by the end of her 45 year reign England had one and truly fallen in love with queens and of course that paved the way for later queens such as Victoria and then the other and then the other Elizabeth, our late queen. So it has been such a change. I think it's a wonderful change, actually. Finally, we haven't even got equality in the monarchy. It's actually pro-female monarchs, which is wonderful. Which makes me wonder about the job that our king will have ahead of him.

Does his age matter? How do you pitch yourself as a fresh start when you're in your 70s? Well, of course, the flip side of that is that he's had an awful lot of time to prepare. And the examples from the past do tell us that that can be a real advantage, particularly if the monarch on the throne has delegated to you. You've had plenty of hands-on experience. And of course, as Prince of Wales, Charles certainly did get an awful lot of experience. So I think it will be that breadth of experience that really stands him in good stead, more than the fact that, yes,

he is the oldest monarch to come to the throne and the issues surrounding that hopefully you know looking back over all the things he's achieved that will really be a good a good sort of basis going forward for his reign but the queen is everywhere isn't isn't she Anna still she's still on the stamps banknotes how is Charles going to make an impression on the public it's going to take time the queen is absolutely everywhere the er on post boxes she appears on coins and stamps still it's going to take some time for the idea of we're in the carolingian reign now and not the elizabethan one and i think many people see still see themselves as elizabethans and it it's really going to be about the king getting out and about being seen to be believed and also people beginning to understand and accept that we now have a king and queen it will take some time and I think certainly there isn't the level of excitement

that perhaps there would be if we had a King William and a Queen Catherine right now. This is a sort of aged face of monarchy and despite you know their efforts to go to Eurovision and turn on the lights as they did and be out and about as they have been since the accession, there really is a sort of sense of dwindling, perhaps dwindling affection for the monarchy, certainly a growing sense, I think, of apathy. And certainly the polls are moving in a way that they haven't before to suggest that perhaps a support for the monarchy is not as it has been in the past. So it's going to be really important the next few months and years. And I think Charles very much intends for his reign to be a bridge between that of the late queen and his son, King William. But the extent to which he can really modernise an age old institution, I think, remains to be seen. I think what we're really going to see is changes in style.

And we see we're going to see that the coronation rather than fundamentally changes in substance. I think we should talk. You mentioned the crowning of the Queen there. I think we should talk about Camilla. Is the crowning of her as Queen, not Queen Consort, an issue for the public, Anna? I think it will be. I mean, it's been quite the remarkable rehabilitation of Camilla. I mean, if we think back to the 1990s, she was absolutely vilified in the press and among the public.

The third person in that marriage uh famously uh the woman who charles had had an affair with and for a long time it was the idea would be that she was going to be known as princess consort when charles became king the late queen uh made it clear that her sincere wish was that camilla would become a Consort. And now, as is being made absolutely clear, she's going to be known as Queen and the coronation invitations invite people to the coronation of King Charles and Queen Camilla. So it's a massive turnabout, really, which I think many of us didn't think would happen. But I think she is now broadly accepted I think despite many people and again I was talking to these 10 and 11 year olds yesterday and they all knew about Princess Diana all knew about her and

I think you know although clearly that isn't front and centre now for some people still the shadow of Diana sort of throws shade over this new monarchy. What role, Tracey, will Camilla play and how does it compare to previous queens? Well, the consort traditionally is obviously very much a supporting role. The late queen referred to Prince Philip as her strength and her stay. And I think we will see very much the same with Camilla as queen. And, you know, that has been traditionally the role throughout history. Although, of course, with previous queen's consort, their number one role is to bear children and to fill the royal nursery.

And really, they didn't have any other formal role for many years, for most of the history of the crown. It's all about their fertility. That was certainly the case with Anne Boleyn, who was this brilliant woman, a highly educated, very sort of feisty woman. But she was judged by her body, not by her mind. And she ultimately lost her life because she only gave birth to a girl, the future Elizabeth I, not to a boy. But her influence on the monarchy has been profound. I've just written about Anne Boleyn and Elizabeth I and the impact they had on each other. And, you know, it didn't just shape those two women and queens, but the entire history of the monarchy. So, of course, there have been changes. You know, the need to bear children, it's still there.

But, of course, that's not an issue with the current queen. No, not at all. And however you feel about the coronation it will be history in the making that we'll all be watching will you be watching where will you both be on the day that's what we're asking our listeners today are you going to be a street party eating quiche tracy what where will you be well i love baking so i intend to bake some coronation themed cakes and i'm gonna sit in the comfort of my home and watch it all on telly eating cake it sounds like a dream day to me. Anna? I'm going to be commentating on the television I'm going to be down at Buckingham Palace so really looking forward to to it and as a historian just seeing the past being played out before us is incredibly exciting so yeah definitely a day to look forward

to. Absolutely I'm going to be there on the TV and of course you'll be able to listen to it on the radio as well. Tracy, Anna, always a pleasure. Thoroughly enjoyed that. Thank you so much. Thanks so much. And lots of you getting in touch

with your own thoughts about the coronation, telling me how you feel about it. My partner and I are leaving the country on the coronation weekend to get away from all the hype over an outmoded monarchy. Now is the time to get rid of the lot of them, says someone. Helen says, morning.

It was so good to have a woman as our figurehead for so long. I still can't get used to people saying that King, as all I have known, is the queen for my whole life. I don't think Charles will receive as much worldwide acclaim as his mother did. He's just another man on the world stage. Catherine says, sadly, I'm a frontline worker support worker and I'm working over both the weekend and coronation day so sadly business as usual given the chance I would love to watch proceedings and celebrate and Claire in Sheffield

says don't forget that we do have a queen as well as a king now we've just been talking about that haven't we Queen Camilla currently queen consort but once the coronation has taken place she'll be Queen Camilla I think both will do an excellent job and also help with the progression of the monarchy personally i can't see what the issue is regarding the head of state's gender it's as as long as they do a good job and um a message here from sarah and simon who says anita we're getting married on the 6th of may we got engaged at the end of february and we're delighted to be able to make the most of the long weekend and have our close family and friends to celebrate February and we're delighted to be able to make the most of the long weekend and have our close family and friends to celebrate with us. We're amazed to be able to book our gorgeous venue at such short notice. Our ceremony is at 3pm so we'll

be able to watch King Charles ceremony while we're getting ready along with so many others. We're really hoping for a sunny day. Sarah and Simon, the whole nation will be celebrating on your wedding day. Good luck with that day. 84844 is the number to text. Keep your thoughts coming in. Now, the former president of the United States, Donald Trump, is facing a trial over an allegation that he raped an advice columnist nearly three decades ago. E. Jean Carroll, who is 79, is suing Mr. Trump for allegedly assaulting her in a Manhattan department store in the 1990s, a charge the former president has denied. The civil trial, which started yesterday, is expected to last two weeks.

And to explain more to us about who E. Jean Carroll is and how this historical case can be brought after several decades, I'm joined by Amanda Taub from The New York Times. Amanda, welcome to Woman's Hour. So who is E. Jean King and what's she saying? E. Jean Carroll is a advice columnist. She wrote a very sort of popular advice column for Elle magazine and was generally a sort of magazine writer and personality for many decades.

I remember reading her columns from childhood. And she, of course, now occupies an extremely different place in American public life as a result of this. How is she able to bring this to court so many years later? So there are two claims here. One of them is a claim for the assault itself. And that's been brought under a special New York law called the Adult Survivors Act, which opened up a one-year period where people could sue for cases of sexual assault and abuse that took place many years earlier.

It follows a similar law that allowed people to sue for assaults that took place during childhood. And this one allows suits for adult cases as well and that the second claim is a is a defamation claim which results from some statements that the former president made about her after she made her allegations public and so she's suing for the damage to her reputation as well from those more recent statements. But what has he said? So he has accused, I mean, he said all sorts of things. He's insulted her appearance. He's called her a liar. He's called her crazy. He also claimed that she said it was very sexy to be raped. So it's been all over the place. But she's suing,

she says that those statements have damaged her reputation. Why is it a civil case? So in the United States, as in a lot of other countries, you can sue, you can bring a lawsuit for the harm that you suffered as a result of a crime. So it has a different standard of proof. You don't need to prove beyond a reasonable doubt. And it means that the person who is the victim themselves can bring the lawsuit. They don't need to convince a prosecutor to bring the case on their behalf.

The former president has been accused of things like this before. This is the first accusation to get into court. Is it getting a lot of attention in the States? It is getting a lot of attention. I don't know that it has changed anyone's mind about the former president. As you say, there have been so many accusations of this nature that I think that this is something that people have sort of probably come to their conclusions about this aspect of his character and the allegations against him already. But the fact that this has made it to court, the fact that it is now being, you know, heard as an

evidentiary matter before a jury, I think is new and does mean that it's getting a lot more coverage than these kind of allegations against Trump have in recent years. How many other women have made allegations? Let's remind ourselves of what else has been said. You know, I can't even think off the top of my head how many there have been. Particularly because there have been some that, you know, were made in one form and then withdrawn, you know, in a book by one of his ex-wives. She described an assault that she later claimed, you know, had been an incorrect description. He's been accused of harassment and assault by various women. There was a harassment case against a woman who was on his TV show, The Apprentice. And of course, there was the infamous Access Hollywood tape where he's heard bragging about grabbing women by the pussy and

saying that if you are famous, they let you do it, which I think created a sort of public frame against the, you know, surrounding all of the allegations of women who came forward and claimed just that. And of course, he's denying it all and his team are seeing it as propaganda. That's right. He has claimed that this case is just political. He claimed that her lawsuit is being funded by political donors, that she's doing this for attention, all sorts of things that I think have really become part of the playbook for high profile men who are accused of sexual assault. You know, the most high profile recent example was Johnny Depp, who brought suit against his former wife after she accused him of abuse in marriage, as well as a sexual assault while they were married.

So this is part of a broader pattern. Are we likely to see him in court? No. So Trump has said that he doesn't plan to come to court because he has security concerns and doesn't want to snarl up traffic in Manhattan. Judge Kaplan, who's hearing the case, has pointed out that this is a courthouse that has handled trials for people accused of terrorism, mafia dons. They are very familiar with handling security concerns that come from trials and high-profile defendants. But I think Trump probably is not going to appear. Thank you very much, Amanda Taub,

for bringing us up to speed with that. Amanda Taub there from The New York Times. 84844 is the number to text. Lots of mixed responses coming in about how you feel about the coronation. I'll come to those at the end of the programme if we have time. But now to our series Under Pressure,

which looks at the stress put on relationships when life happens. Carla and Brendan met at school. Their lives looked to be on track and then things changed. Jo Morris went to meet them. Carla shared her personal experience about when her fibromyalgia, a long-term condition which can cause widespread persistent pain, first began.

I can remember sitting in the bath and just crying, like sobbing, and I mean, I'm not really much of a crier at all. I just felt so much despair. I mean, and pain. I don't think I could get out of the bath by myself. And I just felt hopeless. I think hopeless is a good word because everything I had hoped for wasn't going to happen. I didn't know how to say fibromyalgia. I'd never heard of it. I got this picture. Do you remember this one?

No. Oh, okay. So you're going to get this a lot. Brendan's memory is terrible. I'm going to get a different one. Slander. So that one? Yeah, that's at your house.

No, it's not. It's not at your room? No. Do you remember this one? Yeah, that's at your house. No, it's not. It's not your room? No. Do you remember this one? Yes. And that's when we went out and you did karaoke. Yes. Yeah.

So you two met before Carla had fibromyalgia. How did you meet? We met at secondary school. What were your first impressions of Carla? She was quite mouthy. Very abrupt. I think fierce. Short. Not spiky.

So he was always quite cool. So this is early twenties. This is when I was at university. So this is you and Brendan together? Yeah. But you hadn't got together? No, no, no. We were just mates. He came to stay. Did you like him at this point? Yeah. But you hadn't got together? No no we were just mates he came to stay. Did you like him at this point? No I didn't fancy him we're just mates he was just my mate he was just Brendan and my mum kept going oh but Brendan's so handsome and

nice it's like mum it's Brendan. For the record I didn't fancy you at secondary school. No, I know. Yeah, yeah. I know, and at college I didn't fancy you either. We were just... Just making that... Absolutely. Just want that to be clear. We did not fancy each other, OK? Oh, so that's me graduating.

Is this your mum? Yeah. Oh, she looks very proud. She told everyone. I was the first one on my mum's side of the family to go to university and finish and she was really pleased that I got a first and she saw that I worked really hard and she was very proud of me. Did you have a plan at that age of what your life was going to be?

Absolutely, yeah. Very focused on doing well and getting a first and I believed that if I did that I would succeed in life and everyone would be wowed that I'd done so well. Because I grew up in a house which was very turbulent and had domestic violence, I wanted to get out and the way I was going to get out was by going to university. I got ill and it all stopped. Big one? Are we going to be drinking in the during? I always stop for a little slurp of tea.

I'll give you a big one as well then. I'm a big cupper. So, like, with your fibromyalgia, is something like making a cup of tea, can that...? Today actually is quite a good day. My back's aching quite a bit and i'm having a few twinges but my legs are okay today and my feet don't hurt i haven't had a headache yet so that's good i could go for a nap quite easily so it's totally unpredictable the only predictable thing is is that if i do too much i will be in more pain so So how often will Brendan have to get you out of bed? This week you haven't have you? Brendan how would you describe being in a relationship with someone who has fibromyalgia? It's definitely different to how we thought our lives would be. There were

points where I was more of your carer than I was your husband or partner it would be really hard in the mornings so she would wake up and her fingers would be kind of locked in in kind of like a weird grippy clawry fashion and I would have to kind of open her fingers up I'd have to help her sit up in bed, help her stand up, walk her to the bathroom, help her get up and down off the toilet, then walk her back upstairs. You used to dry my hair. Yeah.

I used to hate it. Yeah, you did. I didn't like any of it, but the hair drying particularly, I just really didn't like you doing it. I was quite vulnerable at that point and it just it felt it wasn't like a fun time of us bonding did it alter the dynamic in your relationship the the dynamic changed but I don't accepted that this was a lifelong thing. I kept expecting that I would get better. I still didn't believe that that's what it was going to be like.

I never thought that I would be a housewife for so long. I always thought I would work. Always. I'm getting all foggy. What time is it? See, I need some drugs, that's why. Do you? Yeah.

Do you want to go get them? Mm. So what does it feel like when you need... Well, it starts to slow down. My thoughts are starting to get slower. And you're aware of it when it's happening? Not straight away. I'm struggling to find the words more,

and I can... I think it's because the pain starts to... Yeah, I can't. I will get my pills. After I became unwell, I was angry. I really do feel like my life was stolen. My goals and dreams were taken away. I was in a parallel universe, that's the only way I can describe it,

it was just that everyone was the same and they were still going and doing their things and Brendan was still going to work and everything changed overnight to the point where he went away for work and he came back and I couldn't walk properly. It was really strange strange we got engaged I proposed on Christmas day and then I went to Jamaica for three weeks in January for work to

record an album and I came back and you'd kind of changed bedridden and in a lot of pain. Really frustrated. Confused about what's going on. Work had let you go because you hadn't been able to go in because you were so sick. She was still on probation. So they cut their losses and said goodbye. So you got the career, Brendan. And Carla obviously had plans for a career and having fibro has scuppered that i know that it was frustrating for you at times as well seeing me doing that

and seeing me being able to travel because that was one of the things that you would wanted to to do with your career was to get a job that would allow you to see parts of the world there was a point where I didn't tell you yeah we didn't talk about it you'd come back I'd come back and I just wouldn't ask questions about what you'd done yeah or I would be like was it good you'd be like yeah I felt very like my identity had been taken that my sort of attractiveness my ability to exercise my body shape changed my outside world shrunk so much that I was no longer interesting what have I done today well I've you know managed to get down the stairs that's that's what I've done today did you get jealous of the women he worked with I wouldn't say jealous I struggled at points when you were doing the jollies when you were doing the

the away days you're really funny and handsome and everyone's like oh Brendan so nice and handsome and funny and I think that you don't see it I think you don't see people checking you out they're all these girls with like glossy swishy hair and work and have lives and do interesting things and then you come home to me and I'm like there's washing up to do mate it's a big thing though isn't it as a sort of 23 year olds to take on a lot of people wouldn't have yeah stay together yeah at the beginning I worried that I would get left behind and that he would you know change and I wouldn't

change with him we got together really young we got married really young we did everything really young and you change you know as you get older you change your outlooks change and because you're experiencing things I wouldn't experience those things

I would not keep up or I would get a bit boring but I don't worry about that as much now I make him laugh nearly every day it's fine do you have to work hard at that or does that come naturally it's natural it's a natural talent I think the strain is he worries about me. He worries that I won't look after myself, I'll keep pushing myself, and that I will get to the point where I can't recover, that I'll be back to where I was originally.

I feel like a nag sometimes. I feel like I have to nag you and remind you about I mean I nag you too we're married you nag each other I have to nag you about yourself yes whereas you nag me about the things I've forgotten to do yeah do you ever worry that he might leave you?

no did you in the early days worry he might leave you? when I first became unwell I remember saying to him it's okay we don't have to get married if you don't want to this isn't what you signed up for. I can't imagine life without him and I don't think he can imagine life without me. What was the turning point for you Carla? What made your condition become more manageable? Emotionally, the turning point has been having children because it gave me purpose and it gave me friendships

because when I first became unwell, there was no-one around. You know, everyone was at work, all my peers were at work. Did you worry how the fibromyalgia was going to affect you in your pregnancy and as a parent? I spent over a year getting well enough to have my first child. What do you mean? What did you do? So I did Pilates and I came off all my medication because I was worried it would affect her. But actually during the pregnancy, the fibromyalgia seemed to lessen. It wouldn't have stopped me from having children.

I can't imagine what it would have been like if we hadn't. How has the fibro impacted your sexual relationship? I think the medication I take changes your libido. I don't feel as sexual. I can't even remember what I was like really but I find it hard to prioritise it in my energy levels. then actually having sex will hurt. It doesn't hurt particularly during, but just the physical act of it will make me have a mini flare-up. I will hurt the next day, my hips will hurt, or my back will hurt more.

Brendan has struggled where he feels responsible or guilty that he feels he has hurt me and doesn't want to. Whereas I often feel like if I've managed to have sex, that it's worth it. What's that been like for you brendan knowing that if you have sex it can cause problems for carla frustrating i think she's beautiful i think she's sexy i'm at home a lot i see her a lot more i think she's sexy more i have felt guilty i don't want to hurt Carla. I wouldn't say let's go trampolining tomorrow. So why should we kind of engage in a sexual activity that would that would cause pain as well? We've explored doing things differently in ways that are less, I suppose, physically intensive. We can still do sexual things, but it not necessarily always be about penetrative sex. So where's the power dynamic in the relationship?

Who's the boss of the relationship? Look at you. Look at you trying to be not overly powerful, but also knowing that you are the powerful one. It's me. Yeah. Yeah, it's me. But at times, it's not yeah yeah it's me but at times it's not fibro stops you or i have to stop you from yourself you are constantly trying to get me to do less

yeah i'm constantly trying to do more yeah that's the dynamic yeah that's yeah that is the dynamic pretty much have you ever thought that this relationship might not be able to take the pressure? No. What about you, Carla? No. Do you wish she was different? I wish she didn't have fibro.

That's what I wish for when I blow out the candles or when the girls give me a dandelion you're still here you're wonderful you're creative you're an amazing mum oh I'm gonna cry that's okay I think that might have got quite a few of us teared up what a wonderfully honest conversation it just felt like we were intruding didn it? Brendan and Carla were talking to Joe Morris there. Sources of information and support about fibromyalgia are available on our website. And we wanted to say good luck to Carla, who is up for the Unsung Hero Award at the Music Producers Guild Awards tonight. Go, Carla. So many of you getting in touch with the programme about the coronation and how you feel about having a king on the throne now and what you'll be doing on May the 6th. A real mixed bag, actually, of reactions.

Margaret in Aberdeenshire says, I'm going to ignore the whole coronation thing. We should have an elected head of state, not one foisted on us due to accident of birth. Francis says, I still can't get used to Radio 4 playing God Save the King when they go off air at night. I know they don't use the words, but it's still hanging in the air there. The day of the Queen's death, it was a real shock to hear it.

Someone else here says, I think far too many underestimate King Charles. His achievements need to be promoted from DEA to conservation. Royal family make the UK unique. Maybe that's why, this is from Jean Thompson, maybe that's why Charles is making Camilla Queen, not just consort. He knows we need a female monarch if there's to be support. Elizabeth was the only thing keeping monarchy together as a woman head of state. And JR from Brum says, as a child of the 50s,

I've watched King Charles grow up and feel sympathy and respect for him. I've already practiced making the coronation quiche. And as a pretty hopeless cook, I was delighted with the result. It was delicious. Tomorrow, I'll be finding out what happens when a woman famous for her razor sharp wit is left stranded on a desert island with only herself and a hermit crab called Spartacus for company. Author, broadcaster and mental health campaigner Ruby Wax will be telling me what it's like to be cast away for a new TV documentary. Can't wait for that. Join me tomorrow morning from 10. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. Hi, I'm Helen Lewis, and I want to tell you about a podcast I've made for BBC Radio 4 and BBC Sounds.

It's called The New Gurus, and it's about how everywhere you look on the internet, people are giving advice. Advice they claim will transform your life. Advice that gets them thousands, no, millions of devoted followers. These online prophets are telling us how to eat, how to think, how to get rich, how to find love, how to manage our time. These are the new gurus. Just as people will say,

the Protestant Reformation and the printing press went hand in hand, so too did this birth of the new internet culture really give rise to this new religious landscape. Subscribe now to The New Gurus on BBC Sounds. I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies.

I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.