Woman's Hour - Kinship care, Shane MacGowan's widow Victoria Mary Clarke, 'Red White and Blue', Lora Logic

Episode Date: December 15, 2023

The government is today unveiling the first ever national Kinship Care strategy, aiming to bring more awareness and more money to family members looking after children that aren’t theirs. Kinship care is when a child lives full time, or most of the time, with a relative, be it grandparents, aunts, uncles, siblings, or someone in the wider family network, because their own parents can’t care for them. Anita talks to David Johnston, the Under Secretary of State for Children, Families and Wellbeing at the Department of Education about the new strategy.Shane MacGowan, the legendary songwriter and frontman with The Pogues, died on 30th November. As the classic Christmas anthem Fairy Tale of New York reaches number one in Ireland, Anita speaks to his widow, Victoria Mary Clarke about their life together, his music, his addictions and his legacy. It has been a year and a half since Roe vs Wade was overturned in the United States, ending the constitutional nationwide right to abortion for millions of women. It remains an issue that divides opinion. Anita talks to the British writer Nazrin Choudhury, the director of a new short film on the subject; 'Red White and Blue,' follows the character Rachel Johnson, a single mother in a precarious financial position, who is forced to cross state lines from Arkansas in search of an abortion. Musician Lora Logic was the woman behind the iconic saxophone that was a part of the British Punk-Rock band X-Ray Spex. After almost 30 years, the band are re-releasing their second album, Conscious Consumer. Lora joins Anita to talk about the album, what she’s up to now and what lead singer Poly Styrene would have thought of the re-release.Presenter: Anita Rani Producer: Rebecca Myatt Studio manager: Sue Maillot

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Anita Rani and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Good morning and welcome to Friday's Woman's Hour. A week since the funeral of Pogue singer Shane McGowan, his wife Victoria Mary Clark said in her beautiful eulogy that one of his proudest moments, in fact, he cried when it happened, was receiving a Lifetime Achievement Award on his 60th birthday from Irish President Michael D. Higgins for his

contribution to Irish life, music and culture. His huge pride and promotion of his identity is something I've always admired and identified with. So this morning, I'd like you to think about what makes you proud of your identity. So many of us have to change or shapeshift who we are depending on the situation we're in. But this morning, I want to hear about the time you felt completely whole in how you present your this is me moment, if you like, maybe it's an event, an item of clothing, a place, a food that always makes you feel grounded and confident and confident about who you are.

Just get in touch with me in the usual way. The text number is 84844. For me, it has to be presenting the King's Coronation on national TV in a sari and cherry red Doc Martin boots where I effortlessly owned it. I made a statement about myself and Britain as well. And I have to say, it felt good doing it. So tell me about your This Is Me moment

where you felt really confident and proud of your identity. You can also email me by going to our website. You can also WhatsApp me or voice note me if you fancy. It's 03700 100 444. In fact, Victoria Mary Clark will be joining me live from Ireland to talk about life with Shane shortly. There's also more music and more punk on the programme. Laura Logic, the saxophonist from X-Ray Specs, will be joining me.

And of course, I would love to hear from you about anything you want to comment on on the programme. But first, the government is today unveiling its first ever national kinship care strategy, aiming to bring more awareness and more money to family members looking after children that aren't theirs. Kinship care is when a child lives full-time or most of the time with a relative, be it grandparents, aunts, uncles, siblings, or someone in the wider community, because their own parents can't look after them. Government statistics show that around 200,000 children across the UK live in this sort of care. Well, joining me to discuss the new strategy is David Johnston, the Under-Secretary of State for Children,

Families and Wellbeing at the Department for Education. Welcome to Woman's Hour. We're going to get into kinship care, David, in a moment. But first, I'd like to ask you a couple of very important questions, if I may, about Ofsted. After an inquest into the death of headteacher Ruth Perry found that an Ofsted inspection contributed to her taking her own life, because on this programme, we have previously spoken to Amanda Spielman, outgoing Ofsted chief inspectorate, to Julia Walters, the sister of Ruth Perry. And then on Monday, we talked to Paul Whiteman, the general secretary of the National Association of Head Teachers. And also, we've been inundated with teachers who listen to this programme telling us about the huge negative impact of how Ofsted inspections

impact on their working and personal lives. Since the tragic death of Ruth Perry, teachers have been telling us the system is broken. They don't feel listened to. What are you going to be doing about it well this was a very tragic case and my boss jillian keegan the secretary of state has met with ruth sister several times um there have been a number of changes uh in the wake of this case that have been made so for example if if your safeguarding judgment is inadequate but the other aspects of the school are are good or better then ofsted will return within three months rather than making that uh definitive for your judgment they've got more training for their inspectors um so you know there are there are definitely lessons which the organisation

is learning as a result of what is a truly awful case. I'm going to read out some of the messages we've had from our listeners, if I may. One here that says, I'm an ex-headteacher. I remember crying in my office, going AWOL and considering suicide as our school was downgraded from good to requires improvement due to a tiny handful of children not gaining expected progress. I also recall a parent telling me I'd caused the value of their house to drop by £50,000. The system is broken and one word judgments must go. Another person says here as a teacher in a primary school Ofsted shaped school life the pressures driven from the system through our head teachers to all staff

has led to continually stressed adults who work with children. This is whilst we wait for an inspection that could happen any day. We've been in this heightened state for years. Whilst I agree that we should be accountable, a one-word statement is deplorable. Too many good people are leaving the profession.

And another one, I retired from teaching 12 years ago. Last Sunday, I had lunch with some old colleagues. The topic of Ofsted came up, as it always does. I was shocked to hear that four of us still have distressing dreams a decade later. It's the main reason so many teachers leave within five years. I mean, the Ofsted inspections are having a lasting effect on teachers' lives. They're not saying that they shouldn't be assessed,

but they really are questioning the assessment. Well, we're listening carefully to what the profession is saying about inspections as our office. That's part of why we've made those changes and the changes to training. It is, and some of the messages you've just read out confirm this, it is important that schools are inspected. And, you know, before I became an MP, I ran charities for disadvantaged children.

And Ofsted has been important for making sure that disadvantaged children are getting the education standards that they need. And you all know, Anita, that many parents value Ofsted's judgments when deciding what school to send their children to. So I do think they've got an important role. But clearly, with a tragic case like this, we have to look at what can be done better. Sure, because Ofsted inspections are about quality of education. How can children have a good quality of education when teaching staff don't feel that their welfare is protected

and they're so stressed and so many are leaving the profession? Well, I think there are a few things bunched up together there, but I do think that, you know ofsted ofsted is in regular conversation with the with the department for education and with schools we've they have deferred uh further inspections until january they are um giving their staff additional training and so on um and and you know i hope that what we've learned from this the changes we're making for example on the safeguarding aspect of the inspection that they will return within three months and and if you've if you've addressed it you know safeguarding is clearly very important and so they're giving schools a a period where they can address the issues that

they identify and then re-inspect them so that it doesn't determine the whole judgment and I think that's the right thing to do. I think we should move on now and talk about the government's new kinship care strategy which aims to help family members looking after children that aren't theirs. Tell us about the plan. So I'm very excited about this because for the very first time, we have produced a strategy for kinship carers. Now, many of your listeners are probably familiar with adoption, familiar with foster carers. They may be less familiar with this term kinship care.

And a kinship carer is somebody in the extended family or friend network who takes on a child because for whatever reason they can't live with their parents. And they agree to take them on instead of them having to go into care. And my first experience of this actually was long before politics. I was mentoring a nine-year-old boy who couldn't live with his parents and his nan took him on. She was in her mid-60s and never in a million years would she have been expecting to look after a nine-year-old at that time. But because it was her family and she loved him, she was happy to do so. And she played just a transformational role in his life and kinship carers have too often not had the recognition and support that they need and that's what today's strategy is all about.

You're introducing an allowance for carers that matches foster carers between £154 to £270 per week per child. Is that enough to raise a child? Well, we've had a foster allowance in development for 20 years now, and it does play a very important role for foster carers. Of course, people are in very different financial situations, but this allowance does play an important role for them. And what we're trying to do across this strategy is really put kinship carers on a level playing field with foster carers and with those who adopt. I've spoken to kinship carers all over the country, and they're sort of hidden in plain sight. People don't really know they exist and they haven't been getting, for example,

the allowances or training and support as we may come on to in a minute. And that's what today is all about. I mean, it's just a pilot scheme at the moment, isn't it? You're only testing this out in eight local authorities. Why not just roll it out? Because we want to get it right. And, you know, too often what government will do is

roll something out across the whole country before it really learns whether it works and is making the difference that we want it to. So we'll be testing this in eight areas. Subject to its success, we will then look to roll it out. But what I would say is it's one component of what we're doing today. So to give you another example, what kinship carers often say is they can find it very difficult to get organisations like schools to engage with them because they're not the birth parent, even though they are looking after the child full time. So we're putting more money into what are called virtual school heads. These are people who sit outside the school and currently support children in care to make sure they get the education support they need. And for the very first time,

we're going to expand their role to look after children in kinship care so that those kinship carers are really finding schools responsive to them as they look after these children. Research shows, and I'm sure you're aware of this, around half of children in kinship care are there because their parents have had problems with drugs and alcohol and that many children will have experienced trauma.

How is this strategy going to help families who need extra support for a child's mental well-being? So we're doing two things in tandem. So one thing is with today's kinship strategy, we are putting more into training and into peer support groups. So there's a great charity called Kinship that we fund to run peer support groups around the country so that the kinship carers can get the support they need from other kinship carers. And we'll be putting more money into training so that the carers know how they can get support but it sits within a much broader reform we are doing of of children's social care because you're absolutely right those problems of addiction of mental health of of relationship breakdown have too often led to children going into care where if you got those families early help early intervention to support them through whatever crisis they're going through you might find you could keep that family together and keep the child with their parents which is

ultimately what we want we want children to stay with their families wherever possible. It isn't always possible. But earlier in the year, we announced 200 million, which is all about trying to change the care system, including to give families early help and hope that those problems like addiction don't always lead to a child being removed from their parents. And as part of this strategy, you've started recruiting young people who've experienced being in care to form a new youth advisory board. What do you hope that board is going to bring to future discussions on policy reform? How's that going to work? Well, as someone who used to run Towers for Disadvantaged Children,

you get no better view of what services are like and what it's actually like to be a young person in a particular situation than by talking to the young people themselves. You know, it's very easy for people in government buildings, as I spend a lot of my time in now, to think they know what's happening, to think they know that the policy they've announced is making the difference they believe it is. It's only through talking to young people about what it's actually like that you can learn all sorts of things that that you know need to be improved um now i you know to give you a very good example of of something i had a session with young people the other day. These are young people who are in foster care and kinship care relationships.

And they were saying to me that sometimes they are not allowed to have a haircut unless they are getting permission from the local authority. They're not allowed to go and stay at a friend's house unless they're getting permission from the local authority. Now, I haven't been in their role this long, but this was completely eye-opening for me. And of course, it makes those children feel like they're very different to other children. And so by having young people advise us, those are the sorts of things you can learn and then try and do something about them. Explain also what you are planning on doing with these virtual school heads. What role will they play in communities across the country?

Yes, so what they do is they're not attached to a particular school, but they're employed by a local authority. And their job is to make sure that where you have a spread of children in a particular sort of situation across a variety of schools, so, you know, their main focus is children in care, and each individual school may not have that many children in care, but a local authority may have quite a number spread across the school. And too often, if you don't provide particular support for those children they get lost and schools don't um don't appreciate the challenges they may be facing outside school that might affect what's happening inside school so what virtual school heads do is they work with schools to say you have these children in your, this is what's going on for them in

their care home or wherever they might be. And this is what we think you should be doing to get the best out of these children in the classroom. And for the very first time, part of what our kinship care strategy will do today is expand the role of virtual school heads with more money to make sure that they now take on that role for kinship carers because as I've heard from from kinship carers all over the country too often the school just doesn't appreciate what they've been through and why that might be affecting them in the classroom and they often don't talk to the kinship carer because they're not the birth parents so we want virtual school heads to make this whole system work better for kinship carers um we actually spoke to the charity kinship care who say uh about the pilot scheme and they said

the people around the country will continue to wake up wondering how they will financially be able to afford to support a child. Well, and that's very much part of what we're doing with this Pathfinder today, because we've heard that message loud and clear that kinship carers need financial support. This will be the very first time that there has been a system equivalent to that that foster carers get we hope it's successful and and and on the basis of that we will be able to to roll it out but more broadly what we want to do here is make sure that kinship carers get the recognition they deserve because in conversation after conversation i've had with them they feel very much like the attention is on adoption and fostering, both of which are vital, by the way. They also help stop children going into care homes.

But they feel very much like they perform this very challenging but vital role and people don't really know they exist. And so what I really want to do is help more people know that they exist, understand the vital role they're playing. We're going to recruit a kinship care ambassador who can shine a light on the brilliant role that they play because by being with a kinship carer, your outcomes are much, much better than they are on average going into a care home.

David Johnston, thank you very much for speaking to me about this this morning that was David Johnston the Under-Secretary of State for Children Families and Well-Being at the Department of Education. I know that some of you listening will be kinship carers if you want to share your experience please do so you can email us by going to our website we've had a message here from someone saying I've recently taken on my 11 year old niece after the death of my sister to drug dependency. It's been a gruelling process and we get no support. We have three children of our own.

Taking a fourth is no small thing. We don't have provisions for our niece's future. And if we were able to access funding, we would save it for her future as well as get her the psychological support she needs. Your messages on anything you hear this morning, always welcome. Now, Shane McGowan, the legendary songwriter and frontman with the band The Pogues, died on the 30th of November. And the classic Christmas anthem, Fairytale of New York, has reached number one in Ireland. Well, last Friday, his wife, Victoria Mary Clark, gave a powerful, funny and heartfelt eulogy at her husband's funeral. She spoke about their love and life together, his addiction and his legacy.

Well, Victoria joins me now live on the line from Dublin. Welcome to Woman's Hour, Victoria. Thank you for joining me. You gave an incredibly... Good morning. Hello. I just want to say I like the sound of that guy, David. He sounds pretty cool for a politician, you know. Fair enough.

I could feel like he felt very very authentic he felt like he genuinely believed in what he was saying sounds good I mean we will yeah that's good that he came across like that um your the eulogy that you gave at Shane's funeral was very powerful I was very very moved, it was very heartfelt. I actually wanted to start just by asking how you're doing today, how are you? I'm a little bit shaky today, I'm just a bit sort of dazed I suppose, you know, it takes a while I think and when you have like obviously a funeral there's a lot to do, there's a lot of adrenaline because you've got so many things to plan and organize. And for most of us, these things are not things that we've ever thought about before. You know, you don't spend a lot of time thinking about your funeral, do you?

How did you manage to keep so composed? Well, I don't know. I honestly don't. I suppose I have to credit my angels for that. I spend a lot of time meditating and communicating with angels. And I think that that probably means that I've got a bit of a reserve of calm that has built up over time. It's like a practice, you know. And I think also Shane is still very much with me. Like I really feel him.

I don't feel he's gone. When I look at his picture, I feel him smiling at me and I actually feel like a real smile, a real genuine connection. So yeah, I feel his, his love and I feel that connection really strongly. So it's very hard to, to feel sad about it. Even though I do sometimes like burst into tears for my own like loss. It's I can't feel sad for him because I I just really feel that he's in a very blissful state. I mean, there's been so much written about Shane. Can you describe him for us? The man you spent almost 40 years with? Well, I suppose he's not one thing. Like, you know, he's very complicated and complex and very much, you know, there's the shame that you might see on stage or on television.

You can be very shy but be hiding it with a lot of bravado and perhaps a lot of alcohol and maybe a bit of a stage Irish kind of persona. But underneath, really very, very thoughtful, very compassionate, very shy, very gentle, very kind. And he spent a lot of time praying for people. Like I said that in my eulogy, you know, he would pray for people all day long. And in a way that was weirdly not, there was no dogma attached to like he didn't have a particular religion he believed in all of them without exception and he just felt that he loved humanity and he felt for humanity and he loved to um meet people and like find out about them and yeah he's really really interested in people and

very egalitarian like you know like he lived in a world where there were a lot of uh celebrities because a lot of his friends are super famous but he never saw that like it was like he just didn't see any difference between them and you know the taxi driver or the cleaner or like anyone else it was just a completely equal playing field. Wonderful. He either liked you or he didn't like you. And it was nothing to do with how much money you had or how famous you were, any of that stuff.

The way it should be. I mean, like so many people, I'm a huge fan of his music, but it wasn't until I watched his brilliant documentary, Croc of Gold, that I really was struck by him. His story really resonated with me, actually, in so many different ways. But I was also struck by you and your grace, your devotion, and your love for him that really comes through the documentary. You just see it in the way you look at him.

So I want to talk about the love story, if I may, because you were only 16 when you met him. What attracted you to him? I suppose his attitude. I think he had that attitude like he was already Jimi Hendrix. You know what I mean? You know where you might just walk in a room and be like, I'm so cool. But not in a, you know, pretentious kind of way.

Just a very, very, very much at ease with himself and happy with who he was and very different, like very unusual looking, but charismatic and very funny. You know, I think the first thing he said to me was, it's my friend's birthday, buy him a drink. And I told him to F off. And that was all we said to each other. But I just felt myself really compelled to stare at him for the rest of the evening. And then when I finally got to see him play a couple of days later, actually, and I was just really, really blown away by how he managed to make Irish traditional music, which, you know, it wasn't something that any Irish kid would really think was cool. Yeah.

He managed to make it really punk and really, really like new and fresh and really relevant and just like something like exciting, really exciting and energetic. I mean, some articles you've talked about your life being subsumed by his and him giving your life purpose can you explain that what do you mean so I feel that some of us are kind of born knowing what we're going to do with our lives and like we have a talent and we know it and you know you might be an ice skater or you might be a ballet dancer or you might be a musician or whatever it is but you just know that your own that's the thing you're going to do for the rest of your life and there's no deviation from that but for me I didn't know what I was going to do or be and I had lots of different ideas but I was exploring and you know uncertain and full of doubt and so when I met him and I met this guy who was like just absolutely a million percent committed

to his thing his passion his music his purpose I felt like wow I'm impressed by that I actually want that I want to be that myself but the second best thing I guess is to be in support of that you know to be like the um to help out with it so i suppose it's like if you meet someone and you think this guy should be president i'm going to marry him and make him president sure yeah i think a lot of women do this you know they they like they help a guy to get to a position of power because they know that they can do that they can be a support and and a lot of us don't really feel like we need credit for that. We just feel like we're happy to have done this, you know, help this person to do what they need to do.

So what was the reality like of life for you then? Because, you know, you say alongside the alcoholism, he tried every drug going. Absolutely every drug you could think of and, you know in excess not just not just so yes it was it was very it was dramatic it was like being in a soap opera but turned up you know turned up the volume on your soap and really really intense and there was never never any boredom there was never any like predictability and um there was a lot of excitement and like got to travel all over the world meet all kinds of people but at the same time always wondering like will he overdose will he get arrested will he like have a nasty accident will he uh die you know all

kinds of will he get on stage will he fall and not remember the words and you know will he miss the plane so I suppose it's like having a four-year-old who's got a credit card and a car I mean there's some really famous stories because it must have been extremely difficult for you at times Victoria because you mentioned him locking himself away in rooms for hours absolutely having conversations with various people. Or the very famous story which you can tell us about when he ate a Beach Boys LP. Yeah, so he was supposed to be supporting Bob Dylan on tour in America

and he didn't show up. And so the manager rang me and, you know, where is he? What's he doing? So I had to go and like bash the door, and it took a while. And when he came down the stairs, he had blood dripping out of his mouth, and he'd been eating a Beach Boys record. And he told us that the reason he was eating it was because he wanted to demonstrate the cultural inferiority of the United States.

And he was having a summit meeting with all the heads of state of all the world powers. And he was feeding them caviar and Marmite sandwiches. And he felt it was important to get world peace. So it was more important than getting on tour with. But it wasn't Pet Sounds. No, it wasn't Pet Sounds. It was The Greatest Hits, Volume 2. So I think Shane was so funny that even in those moments which are like being in a nightmare on Elm Street, you still got humour. So I couldn't help laughing, even though I was actually terrified and also furious at the same time.

I've been really touched and moved by your heartfelt Instagram posts. And you said in one of them, to anyone in a relationship with someone who has problems with addiction or anxiety or depression to please get healing and help for yourselves so i wonder where you get your support and help from yeah so i've had to get a lot a lot of therapy support um and and you know i started out going to um like those you know those free energy healing events you can go to so i got energy healing for free then i went and learned uh tibetan buddhism um so i did a lot of buddhist buddhist meditation um i began doing a lot of yoga breath work um and channeling so channeling angels i think for me was the the biggest thing because like I know before we came on, you were talking a little bit about identity and how, you know, you felt your moment was wearing your sari and your cherry red Doc Martens. For me, I think it's always about the angels for me.

Like my identity is when I'm channeling them. Like I feel I'm so in the zone. I'm so in tune. I'm so at one that I wouldn't even care if I lived or died. It doesn't matter to me because it just feels like it's all beautiful. So you've done a lot of work on yourself, obviously, but was there ever any time where you just thought this is too much

and you just wanted to walk away? I mean, quite a lot of times. Like I wouldn't say just one time, many, many times. And I did walk away many times and come back. And I felt that I was always drawn back. And I suppose, you know, we have some kind of a destiny that's mapped out for us. And that's how I feel about it was that I was destined to be with him. And there was a lot for me to learn from him.

But yes, I went through hell and I went to the priory and I you know like wanted to kill myself and I ended up taking lots of different drugs myself you know I mean I took heroin I took valium I took temazepam I drank I did everything so yeah I mean I suppose I went through it too absolutely what kept you together I suppose that love that connection you know we just it's like having a piece of your soul that is in another human form. And that to me, I felt like I was at one with him. I was at home with him. I felt that his beauty was always there and his, just that absolute, yeah, it's beauty, I think. And his divine essence was always there. I suppose that still here is that divine essence was always there. And so that's still here, is that divine essence. I mean, the eulogy was great, but you said that even after all the time together,

you could spend hours in a room together and you'd look up and just say, it's nice to see you. Always, always. Yeah, because it just always is nice to see him. And I think it always will be. And I feel like, you know know we would say oh i love to hear the sound of your voice like we picked up the phone to each other it was always that lovely joy that you just get from hearing that person's voice or looking in their eyes and it's just magic

oh you don't want to get that in their life do they no very lucky very lucky um it's been a real pleasure speaking to you. Thank you so much for taking the time, Victoria. Victoria Mary Clark there. And so many of you get in touch with your own stories of what makes you feel confident in your identity. A message here saying, my beloved Pilates teacher classes to my fabulous students for many years, before being forced into early retirement due to long COVID, I loved every moment and felt completely me. Dawn says I felt proud and a sense of belonging when Birmingham hosted the 2022 Commonwealth Games.

Someone else, Rachel, says in my mid-40s, I've rediscovered dungarees and I feel like me again. Keep them coming in. Now, it's been a year and a half since Roe versus Wade was overturned in the United States, ending the constitutional nationwide right to abortion for millions of women. It's an issue that still divides opinion and has continued to play out in the courts across the country. Only this week in Texas, the state Supreme Court ruled against

a woman seeking an abortion for her high-risk pregnancy, hours after her lawyers said she was leaving the state for the procedure. Well, a new short film directed by British writer Nazrin Chowdhury is centred around this issue. Red, White and Blue follows the character Rachel Johnson, a single mother in a precarious financial position, played by Brittany Snow. Rachel is forced to cross state lines from Arkansas in search of an abortion. The film comes with a dramatic twist, which results in Rachel's life never being the same again. Let's hear a clip. This is when Rachel arrives at the abortion clinic in Illinois. Hi, um, I need an abortion, like, yesterday. Do you have an appointment? Um, I tried calling, but I couldn't get through. I've come all the way from Arkansas. Yeah,

you and everybody from that state and all the other ones too please i'm desperate i don't have time i i really need to get back to my son all i can do is take your name honey and put you on the waiting list but i gotta warn you it's pretty long and the film has been qualified to and considered for a 2024 academy award while nazreen joined me from LA for her first UK interview. We talked about the film as well as her journey as a British South Asian woman into Hollywood. But first, why did she write it? Well, you can hear my accent.

It makes it sound like I'm still residing in London, which is where I was born and brought up. But actually, I now live in Los Angeles, which is where I work. I'm raising two young daughters in America. And last year, when the Supreme Court effectively overturned and reversed Roe v. Wade, it set in motion, you know, an aggressive rollback of reproductive rights across many states. And so as a storyteller, you look at the world that you live in and you realize the impact of this on so many people

who don't have the platform or the ability to tell their stories for themselves. And it felt just a very necessary thing for me to set about telling a character story about just one family and what the reversal of Roe v. Wade means for someone like the characters in our story. Was there a particular person in mind that you're aiming this at? Well, you know, it's called Red, White and Blue. And so that's an allusion to the flag of the United States of America. And I called it that deliberately because this issue affects everybody living under this flag. You are either someone who has reproductive rights

that have been affected, or you know someone whose reproductive rights have been affected. So I wrote it really for two different audiences, one which can really relate and resonate with the characters that we see that are dealt with this obstacle in which they are living in a state, Arkansas, and unable to get necessary and urgent health care within their home state and have to travel hundreds of miles and two states away to get this very necessary procedure as it turns out to be in their case. I wrote it also because we are dealing with this very polarized society politically that we have. And I thought the best way to basically, you know, I'm a big fan of Harper Lee and Kill a Mockingbird. And she often talks about you never really understand a person until you climb into their skin and walk around in it. And so I wrote this to not just preach to the choir, because it's more for the people who are voting in a certain way,

who may not be seeing the people who are right there in front of them, you know, around their dinner tables. And could they maybe walk a mile in their shoes? And in doing so, understand really, theoretically, it feels like it's okay to vote one way, but what are the real-world repercussions for someone that is right there beneath your nose potentially? You tell the story through the main protagonist, Rachel Johnson, who is a waitress, and she's got two young children. And the actress that you've got to play, your main character,

is Brittany Snow, and she's best known for Hairspray, Pitch Perfect, John Tucker Must Die, roles that are nothing like this. Did you cast her on purpose because it was taking her out of the way that we see her? Yes, definitely. I felt like I really wanted to have someone like her that is known for a different kind of role and have the ability to just completely ground her in this character of Rachel. But I also think Brittany Snow is this remarkable talent.

And I think even when you watch her in those broad, entertaining feature films that she's been in, Stillwater's really run deep. I think if you watch her, even in those films, there's a lot that goes on internally in how she emotes. And I really, she was on a very early list of mine as someone who I wanted that I thought just would be revelatory in this role, but also not because I cast her knowing that I felt like I could see someone that I could relate to in that role. She's incredible in it. Absolutely incredible. In fact, the whole cast is and you've got children. How was it working with child actors and tackling such a difficult subject?

You know, that was something I was really concerned about. Even when writing it, I knew that I had to really approach this very sensitively and carefully. And, you know, it's a short film, even though I work extensively in the film and television space. So this is my directorial debut. So trying to then, you know, have the budget and the time constraints of a short film while still trying to nurture these young talent and make sure that they were in a safe space. That was challenging just because of the amount of time we had to film this. We were really lucky that we found these amazing actors. We did rehearse and they had access to me at all times because we go into some very deep and serious story in the course of telling this predicament that this family is in.

And so, yeah, credit to those actors. It was really just becoming a family very quickly off screen and then translating that on screen. There is, without giving too much away, there is a huge twist in the film, which is an absolute gut punch, completely catches you off guard, or it did me. Was that on purpose? And was it always going to end that way? how this was affecting so many different people across the country. And I was just living with this and understanding the nuances. You know, it's a very nuanced, multilayered subject matter with many reasons why someone might want such a procedure.

It was just in the news at all times. It's a very clever twist, Nazrin. It's a very clever twist because we don't want to give the twist away, but what it does is it doesn't matter which, what you're, it really makes everybody think twice, whatever side of the argument you sit on about abortion. What happens would make everyone question. Yes, it was very deliberate and I wanted to land that gut punch. And I think we tell that story in such a way where when you watch it on the first watch, there are multiple reasons why you might, this person might want this.

And then when we get to the gut punch reveal of it all, like if that didn't make you understand why it's necessary already, the idea was, well, will this because Because this is as bad as it gets. And maybe what we need to do is just, in a non-judgmental way, have a conversation about reproductive rights. And where did your career start, Nazrin? How did you get into it? I was born and brought up in London, born to Bangladeshi parents in Tooting, and then grew up in Ballon, thought I would become a doctor, ended up, you know, spectacularly disappointing my Asian parents by becoming

a screenwriter. Instead, I did biomedical science at King's College, London, and for a hot minute, also worked at Lambeth Council, actually, for the leader of Lambeth Council, and for a hot minute, thought about Korean and politics, but decided I could change more hearts and minds by telling stories. And so I did some acting with the Royal Court Youth Theatre, went on a theatre tour of Austria during which I wrote my first screenplay, which led to me getting signed by an agent and the domino effect from that. I was just really lucky that the first thing I wrote won this award and then launched my writing career.

And then I moved to LA 10 years ago to just start show running out here and become a writer-producer in Hollywood. Well, I always say luck favours the brave, so there is that. Also, did it take a South Asian British woman going to America to be able to create art like this? Would you have been able to do it in the UK? You know, that's a really interesting question because I always say that I was working in a meaningful way in the UK, but I really wanted to tell some original stories.

I had many stories I wanted to tell. I think I did my version of what I say Idris did. You know, Idris Elba in The Wire. He went over to America, became Idris Elba, and then came back to do Luther and so on. I really needed to do my writer's version of that just because I do feel like the opportunities were few and far between for someone like me in the UK, if I'm being really honest, and going to Hollywood and seeing an appetite for some original storytelling and the value put upon my voice there. It's just been a really warm and welcoming environment for me,

which isn't to say that I'm not still working in the UK. In fact, I'm just penned a British crime drama. So my heart still belongs to the UK, but we're all global citizens now. You know, we are in the era of global streaming. British crime dramas travel well here. American travel shows travel well over there. For me, I'm just about storyteller. You know, I'm just a storyteller who wants to tell stories in whatever medium I can, in whatever space I can. Right now, Hollywood is the place that's allowing me to tell the stories that I really want to

with that courage that you talked about. And Red, White and Blue, it's qualified to be considered for an Oscar. This is exciting. It really is something that is just wonderful

and marvellous to us, not least because hopefully then still shines a light on why we made this film and allows it to be talked about because if it's in contention for that then maybe people are getting to hear about it we certainly didn't set out to necessarily make an oscar qualified short or you know short film is usually the

domain of a director's calling card i work as a showrunner who is able to have scratched that itch because directors are ostensibly working to a showrunner's vision and I didn't feel the need to direct but because this is a film and it was a very specific story that I need to tell I launched it on that basis and the fact that it's now getting this really like there's been such an enormous response to it we've just also released it online for people to be able to watch and get access to it. And I think it's really like the gut punch that you talked about. I think everyone's feeling that.

And yeah, we won this award at an Academy Qualifying Festival. And we are so delighted that Academy members are now watching it. And hopefully we'll see what happens with it. Nazrin Chaudhry there. And Red, White and Blue is now available to watch on the short film platform Omoleto and so many of you getting in touch with the moment you felt that you could truly express who you are and be proud of your identity. Mags says every time I see my two sons and the men they've become I feel like a very proud mum and

Linda says at my daughter's wedding I wore a pair of old but comfortable trousers with a custom made silk coat and a beret from M&S I was smart and I looked like me rather than hyacinth bouquet I like that reference I realised that I didn't have to conform to uncomfortable conventions but could just be myself hear hear to that talking of

just being yourself a real treat for you because you know I love a bit of music on Friday well I'm sure many of you will be able to cast your minds back to the late 70s and remember the explosion onto the music scene of one Paula Styrene and the band X-Ray Spec. And if you're a fan of that, you'll be pleased to hear that today the band are re-releasing their second album, Conscious Consumer, which first came out in 1995.

You might have heard in those songs the gorgeous tones of the saxophone, not something you'd necessarily expect from a punk rock band, but why not? Well, the original saxophonist and founding member, Laura Logic, joins me now. Welcome to Woman's Hour. It's so brilliant to have you here. Thank you so much. Looking fabulous with your pink hair. What's it like hearing those tunes?

It's emotional, to be to be honest yeah it's really emotional why um because Polly is still really so much in my life um yeah I mean we did a gig just recently um in fact our first gig in about 30 years and we were um playing two of her songs prayer for peace and a jazz version of identity um she's yeah she's just x-ray specs are still alive yeah and people still love x-ray specs i think that um her songs are timeless. Yeah, you sadly lost Polly in 2011. Yeah. What do you think she would have made of you re-releasing the second album now?

I think she'd be happy. She'd be happy because it just slipped out and it got lost, you know. Her health wasn't good at that time. Her bipolar kicked in and it disappeared. She couldn't promote it. And in those days, we didn't have the web. We didn't have online.

If you wanted people to know about your album, you went out and you did gigs and you did interviews. And she wasn't able to do that at the time. So Paul and I are really happy to be talking about it now and to see it come out on such glorious vinyl and the sleeves amazing it retains polly's original artwork but it's been elaborated on um the paper paper is the sleeve is echo and it feels lovely you touch it everything about it is magic really nice and it sounds incredible it sounds timeless actually sounds like it could have come out today yeah the remastering is great as well you've got all the advantages of modern

technology um it sounds very crisp and clean. And you recorded it in 1995. Can you share some memories of what it was like recording it? It was quite surreal because I hadn't spoken to Polly for a good while. I had a four-year-old daughter and I was just immersed in mummyhood. I hadn't played the sax for years. I hadn't really thought about music for years. I'd been backwards and forwards and very much absorbed in India and long stays in India. And I was just in mummyhood. So she just rang me out of the blue one day and said, we're going to make an album. She gave me days notice said would you like to come and play sax I was quite taken aback

but I just thought I'll go for it, I'll dive in what have I got to lose yeah and I thought she said do you want to come and stay with me and she had this tiny London flat I was

I was a bit worried about being with her 24 7 but um I thought I can always come home if it doesn't work out but it was it was great we got the music done quite quickly we had Crispian Mills on board from Kula Shaker, who's incredible. Incredible. I think his arrangements really create a fantastic variety. I think we should listen to the first track off the album. This is from Conscious Consumer. This is Cigarettes. I'm sorry. Pack it up, cigarettes on the counter. Carrying a government health warning.

Still they want the money, still they want the tax. Still they want the money, still they want the tax. Why not take paper currency and light it up? Laura, it's timeless. It could be released right now. A band could have just recorded that yesterday and put it out. True. Yeah.

Let's talk about you playing saxophone with the band because it was so unique at the time. And is it true that you joined the band by answering an ad in a newspaper? Yes. I saw this advert in the back of Melody Maker, which said, young punks, punks felt with an x wanted and i just been playing saxophone in my bedroom into a cupboard because of the neighbors and along to david bowie and mark boland along to records and yeah it came time i wanted to be in a band that was the reason I'd taken up the saxophone in the first place um and in those days the only way really was to look into one of

three music papers and there was very few adverts there was only one or two and it was the first advert that I answered it was x-ray specs and there was polystyrene at the door when I arrived and was there an instant connection between the two of you? There was an instant connection. Correction, connection. But the most far out thing was that we were both wearing almost identical clothes. What were you wearing? I was wearing an old sort of 50s granny suit, pencil skirt with short stilettos and a secretarial jacket.

And she was wearing the same thing and it wasn't common you know we both got our clothes from charity shops and so yeah we hit it off it really felt like a past life and so young at the time you were 15 what was it like being in a punk band at 15 and a female punk band as well? Oh, it was surreal. It was a dream come true. Yeah, it was great, great training, great training for life. In what way? I mean, I just learned so much in such a short space of time. I got such a buzz. It was difficult to come down.

Polly Steinman spoke a lot about toxic masculinity, misogynistic treatment that she received in the scene. What was it like for you? Well, I was super young, you know. I was only 15. But personally, I didn't really experience all these isms. We didn't talk about feminism. The whole punk ethos was very much just express yourself you know those first few gigs at the Roxy and the gigs that followed I would say

a bondage up yours is a feminist anthem well I think it's been I don't think Polly intended it to be specifically feminist. I think she was talking about, and she said herself, she was talking about all forms of bondage. And ultimately, because of her deep spirituality, she reflected that the bondage was very much associated, being tied to this material world, to this temporary life, and thinking that's the all in all that's the real bondage and to break free from that um you know a spiritual revolution so

to me that's the song resonates like that how does being a punk in your 60s compare to being one in your teens? I don't know. I haven't really changed. I've got pink hair. Yeah. The energy is still there. Well, I do miss, I miss the physical teenage energy. Yeah. I wish that was there, but I'm lucky enough to be still making music. Yeah, you're not slowing down. In fact, you've sped up. I've never been so busy in my life. So what's going on?

Yeah. Well, I formed a new band this year, Essential Logic, a four-piece band. My daughter's in it. She's got an incredible voice. She kind of makes up for what I lack. Oh, that's nice. Mother and daughter together, like that. Marlonie, yeah.

Her name's Marlonie. And so we're in together, along with Gwen Reed and Danny Nellis. I'm super excited about that. We're going to go out and do some more gigs and hopefully tour next year. Wonderful. And there's a new album, the Land of Kali album, and a remix of the new album coming out next year with some incredible remixes like You, Sadamsky, David Orde.

Oh, that's fantastic. I'm super excited about that. Oh, me too now. Laura, thank you so much for coming in to speak to me. I'm excited about all the stuff you'll be doing. I particularly want to come and see you play live. Laura Logic and X-Ray Specs Conscious Consumer is out now listen to it this weekend

thanks to all of you for getting in touch with all your messages I'm sorry I didn't get to read most of them out do join me for tomorrow Weekend Woman's Hour where I will be speaking to oh I can't see my script here we go where I'll be speaking to

oh Imelda Staunton will be playing Elizabeth II in the final series of The Crown. So join me then. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. If anyone is an artist in their soul, it's Joni Mitchell. There are some artists that change music forever. The mastery of the guitar, the mastery of voice, the mastery of language. That shape the musical landscape for everyone who comes after.

When the dust settles, Joni Mitchell may stand as the most important and influential female recording artist of the late 20th century. Legend is a music biography podcast from BBC Radio 4 that explores the extraordinary lives of musical pioneers. I think people would like me to just be introverted

and bleed for them forever. Legend, the Joni Mitchell story, with me, Jessica Hoop. Listen now on BBC Sounds. I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know.

It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby.

It's a long story, settle in. Available now.