Woman's Hour - Kirsten Dunst, 'Laddish' culture in the armed forces, Teacher Joanna Harriott, Shy bowel, Child to parent abuse

Episode Date: November 15, 2021

Kirsten Dunst started in the acting business when she was just three years old - you may know her from films such as Marie Antoinette, Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind, The Virgin Suicides and Spiderman. She joins Emma to talk about her latest film - The Power of the Dog - written and directed by the award winning Jane Campion. Is there a 'laddish' culture within the British Armed forces? And is it necessary in order to prepare – mainly men - for armed battle and conflict? Emma discusses culture within the Services with the Labour MP, mayor and former army major Dan Jarvis.Children as young as four have been reported to police for abusing their parents, and according to police force Freedom of Information data, 42,000 incidents were instigated by adolescents and children aged 19 and under between January 2018 and June 2021. This abuse can range from physical, verbal and emotional abuse such as punching, kicking, threatening with knives, swearing or hurling demeaning insults. It is a relatively unacknowledged and under-researched form of abuse, with little support offered to families. It is also gendered with more mothers experiencing it than fathers. Emma is joined by the domestic abuse commissioner Nicole Jacobs, and Sharon, a grandmother who is looking after her nine year old grandson. Parcopresis is the inability to defecate or go for a poo without a certain level of privacy. The condition is also known as shy bowel and it can stop people from feeling comfortable about going at work, while out and about or even while sharing a toilet with a new partner. The knock on effect of this is often constipation and according to The Bowel Group Report 2020 one in seven adults suffer from constipation and 60% of that number are women. What causes this anxiety, why do more women suffer from men and what are the long term health implications of this? Emma asks Eleanor Morgan, author of Hormonal: A Conversation About Women’s Bodies, Mental Health and Why We Need to be Heard and Professor Siwan Thomas-Gibson, consultant gastroenterologist and specialist endoscopist at St Mark's National Bowel Hospital in London.Joanna Harriott is in her 50th year of being a teacher. She has worked in west Belfast her entire career and in the same school, St John the Baptist School, since 1973. She tells Emma why she doesn't want to give it up.

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Emma Barnett and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Good morning and welcome to today's programme. A day after solemn scenes across the country for Remembrance Sunday, what is military culture like today? Shortly we're going to be discussing whether being a lad in the army makes you a good soldier, after the most senior military figure has stood by comments about the importance of laddishness, while recognising the need for the armed forces culture to improve so more women

feel compelled to join and, crucially, stay. All that to come. Also on today's programme, the Hollywood actor Kirsten Dunst about why you don't say no to a Jane Campion movie and why a 71-year-old teacher, Joanna Harriot, has made the news for wanting to keep on keeping on. But we're also going to talk about something people find very hard to talk about on today's programme. When do we not, I suppose? Well, certainly without laughing, going for a poo. Yes, happy Monday. Parco prisis is the inability to defecate or Going for a poo. Yes, happy Monday. Parcopresis is the inability to defecate or go for a poo without a certain level of privacy. The condition is also known as shy bowel and it can stop people from feeling comfortable

about doing a bowel movement at work, while out and about, or even while sharing a toilet with a new partner. There are some extraordinary stories about the lengths people have gone to avoiding going for a number two near a new lover or friends or perhaps near anyone. I know someone who went downstairs in a hotel with a new boyfriend for a whole week because she couldn't face or bear the idea of going in the same room as him. There are, of course,

I should say at this point, many serious side effects of such misplaced shame, which usually affects women more. And we're going to exploring that, why women are made to feel dirty for needing to do something that men need to do, namely expel waste. It's perfectly natural. But I'm also in the market for some of those more odd tales that perhaps you also have about the lengths you may have gone to or people near you have gone to to avoid these scenarios. So come, share if you feel like you can. You don't need to put your real name, but as I say, nothing to be embarrassed of. We're all friends here. You can text me here on Women's Hour 84844.

Text will be charged at your standard message rate. On social media, we're at BBC Women's Hour, or email me through our website. But first, yesterday was, of course, Remembrance Sunday, where we pay tribute to those who have given their lives for their country and fellow citizens. And over the weekend, the outgoing Chief of Defence Staff, General Sir Nick Carter, speaking about the military's culture today,

has defended comments he made to MPs last week that we need a laddish culture in the army because soldiers have to go and fight the enemy. He also acknowledged that there needs to be a fundamental cultural shift so more women sign up and he admitted that there has been a failure of leadership over the military's overall culture. His comments about laddishness, whatever that means of course I'm interested to hear what you think, have come at a difficult time for the army in the wake of a string of revelations in the press

about scandals and bullying, culminating with the Defence Secretary Ben Wallace last Monday summoning senior generals, including Sir General Nick Carter, to an extraordinary meeting of the army's management board amid growing unhappiness about the service's response to those scandals. But does being a lad make you a good soldier? Former army major and now Labour MP for Barnsley and Mayor of South Yorkshire, Dan Jarvis, doesn't think so. I asked him about General Sir Nick Carter's comments. Well, he recently said that the army needs a fundamental cultural shift and I think he's

right about that. A House of Commons Defence Select Committee report found that almost two thirds of women who've served in the armed forces have experienced bullying, sexual harassment or discrimination of some kind. That is completely unacceptable. And I think the real risk for the army, if they don't get a grip of this very quickly, is not only very significant reputational damage, but just as importantly, there are lots of extremely capable women who are considering whether to pursue a career in the military. And they will look at this commentary and they will have concerns about whether the army, the armed forces is a place

for them. So this is something that the armed forces needs to get a grip of and pretty quickly, I would say. What does a laddish culture mean to you, having served? I don't know. My recollections of 15 years in the army is, in the main, it is incredibly professional. It strives to achieve high standards. It works hard, but it adheres

to a code. The army talks a lot about values and standards, and that is absolutely right. So, of course, the army needs to develop people who have got the ability to do incredibly difficult things under huge amounts of pressure, but they also have to be professional and follow the rules. And there is never an excuse for some of the behaviour that we have seen in recent time. And right now, there are specific concerns about the actions of some British soldiers in Kenya, where a woman died or was murdered. There are specific concerns about some of the things that happened around the training of women at the Royal Military Academy Sandhurst. So there is opportunity, I think, for the army, if they want to seize it, to show some real leadership, to be clear about the fact

that that kind of behaviour is completely unacceptable. In the end, it has to be driven from the top, from the top of the armed forces, from the chief of the defence staff himself, but also from those in position of responsibilities within leaders who set the culture within those units. So I'm sorry to see the recent stories about the army because it doesn't necessarily reflect my own experiences of being incredibly proud to serve. But I think that this is something the army does need to close with and be clear about the fact that at all times it expects the highest professional standards. But with Sir General Nick Carter saying he believes that the laddish culture, as long as it doesn't get out of control, and I suppose we have to return to what you think that means and what it might mean, you still have to create people who are able to kill and are able to do that shoulder to shoulder and feel bonded. You know, I can't fully understand exactly what he's meaning and he's not here to talk, but I suppose what it comes down to is, do you accept

some level of that? You surely know what he's talking about, that while it's important, and he says himself, leadership has failed in the military on these very issues that you're talking about. The culture's got to come from the top. And the way that, you know, especially to make women feel welcome in the armed forces, although he does make a note, and it is important to know, under his tenure, all bans on women fighting on the front line were lifted, finally, any that remained. But this idea that you've got to still create a fighting force is important.

It is important. But being a lad, to use his terminology, doesn't make you a good soldier. What makes you a good soldier is good training, discipline, self-discipline, following the rules, working with others, treating people with respect. The army rightly places a lot of emphasis on values and standards. When I served and certainly when I went through training, there's a huge amount of emphasis on integrity, on moral courage. And the army talks about these values, again, rightly, a lot. But it's no good talking about them if you then don't enact them and live them. These are not just words to speak.

This is about ways in which you live your life. And I think I would certainly worry if senior people within the military think that you can, you know, excuse certain behaviour because it's necessary in order to generate the highest professional standards of soldiering. I just don't accept the logic behind that argument. The British Army. So why is he making it? He's in his final days in this role. He doesn't like being misquoted. He's made that very clear because his words were taken from evidence being given to people like yourself, given to MPs. But he is standing by a strong part of this, what I think he does need to do is be absolutely clear that the British Army strives to be the best in the world, but it will only be seen to be the best of the world if it follows the rules and it trains people and creates a culture that is inclusive of everybody. And it's entirely possible to be an extremely capable professional soldier that can do all of the things that the army needs it to do, but at the same time treat people decently and with respect. It's not acceptable that there seems to be worrying levels

of harassment, bullying within the armed forces. The army, the armed forces, they need to get a grip of this because it undermines the reputation of the organisation and that is deeply damaging. And the leadership has to come from the top from the chief of the defense staff and others as well because i worry there's a kind of expectation that things will always kind of get better um and my worry at the moment is things aren't getting better and potentially they're even getting worse and And this is why ministers dragged, hopefully didn't drag, but certainly brought senior officers together to discuss this recently.

And I think the army has a responsibility to demonstrate that it understands the serious nature of the concerns that are being expressed. Do you think it's getting worse? Or do you think women are potentially speaking out more? Well, I can't say for certain because I've been gone for more than 10 years. But I think if you look at the findings of the recent House of Commons Defence Select Committee report, certainly if you read the coverage in the Sunday Times, of a terrible incident that's taken place in Kenya, further concerns about officer training and other areas of concern that have been expressed recently. I think the army needs to defend its professional reputation. And the way that it will do that is by being seen to be clear about

the fact that it wants to create a culture that, yes, of course, strives for the highest professional standards. Of course, thatves for the highest professional standards. Of course, that's what the British Army has always been about, and rightly so. But it's 2021. You know, we're not living in the 50s or the 1970s. The Army's got to be a place that is welcoming to all. The Army has to also reflect the society that it is there to serve. And it will be deeply worrying if talented, capable, committed young women decided that it wasn't somewhere that they wanted to make a contribution to our society.

And at the moment, the army is running the risk that young women will make that judgment. And that is a big problem for the army and also for our society as well. Just going back to something you said, being a lad doesn't make you a good soldier, isn't also some of the issues that we've been hearing about in these reports and people's experiences. Some of these come back to what happens when men in the army and in the armed forces as a whole are not on. So it's in their spare time and it's when drink gets involved and it's when they are

having what are also very important times to wind down, be together and actually come off duty together. What do you say about that? Because that culture surely is harder to control. It is much harder to control. I mean, don't get me wrong, the army is a unique organisation and it operates in a unique way because the unique nature of warfare requires it to prepare people in a certain way. But it's entirely possible to prepare people to deal with the hardships of conflict, to be extremely professional, to work hard, but also then to play hard, but to do it in a way that doesn't in any way consider it remotely appropriate to treat women in a way that could lead them to think that they're being sexually harassed or bullied. I mean, there's just no place for that in any walk of society.

And the army doesn't get free pass because it has to go off and do the most difficult things the the army has a responsibility to lead it is a cherished institution within our country but therefore it does have a responsibility to make sure that it sets and then adheres to the highest possible standards that's what i want the army to do and i'll certainly be seeking reassurances that that's what it intends to do because i I'm really proud of the British Army. You know, I had 15 wonderful but difficult years and I care about the organisation and I want it to be successful. But recent events raise significant concerns in my mind and the mind of others about its ability to be that kind of environment that is welcoming and is inclusive to all. And the army does need to get on top of this and grip it sooner rather than later,

because there have just been too many stories recently not to warrant real concern. And the Chief of Defence Staff in his final few days needs to be clear about the fact that there is no place whatsoever for this kind of culture that does find it acceptable to treat women in the way that we've heard. So I hope he'll take the opportunity to do that before he departs. Just finally, do you think that the complaint system is fair enough, transparent enough? Would you welcome changes to that? Because that's been a criticism before that, for instance, when there are accusations of serious sexual crimes like rape made against a member of the forces, there have been calls for that to be heard in a civilian court rather than through the military systems. conduct involving sexual violence, that those kind of very important cases should be listened to, looked at, judged on through the civil process rather than through the military court system.

I think that there are mixed opinions about how effective the military court system is, and I'm not as up to date as perhaps I should be but certainly when I was serving it was a process that used to be quite quite slow moving and I think given the concerns that have been expressed that the army needs to ensure that the processes are absolutely fit for purpose and therefore I think if if there's a judgment made that they're not I think a strong case could be made as part of this fundamental cultural shift that I think we need to see, that serious offences should be investigated and tried through the civil courts. Because I think, you know, the woeful conviction rates that we've seen in recent times, I think something like 10% via the military system, as opposed to 59% through the civilian

courts, I think that does raise concerns. So I think that this is something that the MOD definitely should investigate further and see what possibilities there might be to actually improve the transparency and the effectiveness of the processes. Former Army Major and now Labour MP for Barnsley and Mayor of South Yorkshire, Dan Jarvis. Thanks for that, Dan, and those insights. Messages coming in about this. One here, Any problems that women experience in the army or to do with laddish culture are based on the uncomfortable or is

based on the uncomfortable fact that armies are there to kill people. Like it or not, men and women are different when it comes to committing acts of violence on other human beings and women are fundamentally ill-equipped to commit such acts. They are nurturers by nature. It is simply wrong to put them in situations where they may have to use extreme violence or kill other people. I suppose there's part of that remark, though, the commenting on what you think women are there to do or are not able to do, and of course there are many historical examples to the contrary, not least also present-day ones, but that's your view and you're entitled to it,

is the fact that we're also discussing the culture of men in the armed forces. And there's not that much in that remark, I suppose, about that. But it's an interesting message that came in straight off the back of us doing that discussion and having that discussion. Keep them coming in, please, if you wish to contribute. If you're in the military, very interested to hear from you. You don't have to give your name. 84844 is the number you need to text. Also some messages coming in on a discussion we're about to have shortly about bowels and embarrassment and shame. But I'm sure someone who's seen all sorts of things is a teacher who's made the news simply by doing for what she's always done, teach. Joanna Harriet,

now in her 50th year of being a teacher, She's worked in West Belfast her entire career and at the school St John the Baptist since 1973. Even lockdown didn't deter you, Joanna, because I am told reliably you'd come on to Zoom calls dressed as different characters. Good morning, Joanna. Good morning. Why did you dress up during lockdown? Let's start with that, if I can, because I've seen a couple of these images and you look amazing, if I may say. Thanks very much. I take that as a great compliment.

And first of all, could I say I am feeling overwhelmed at being asked to go on to such an iconic programme as Women's Hour. So I salute all of you. You're doing a fantastic job. Well, we're very happy to have you and we're ready to learn. I don't know about that, but I will tell you what happened during lockdown.

Every week, the principal had meetings with teachers at different primary levels. And to be totally honest with you, they can be quite laborious. So I thought we hadn't seen each other during lockdown and for a bit of fun I wanted to bring a bit of humor into things by appearing at the beginning of the meeting as different characters it started off with me one week being a 118 person I was dressed in all the equipment that I needed and I had a virtual background. So that just started things off. So from week to week, I decided just to be a different character.

And at the beginning of the meeting, I would have played some very appropriate music to start things off. But I have to say that the headmaster got a wee bit irked sometimes because he didn't actually let me finish the whole thing. So when he went off at the end of the programme, I just continued on with the music, much to my colleague's joy. So wait, we had one more night. Also a nun I spied. Was there a nun? Well, can I just tell you what I did from my memory, which is getting pretty poor? I was on a beach. Right. I looked rather resplendent in a beautiful bathing costume, which I wore over clothes, I have to say.

I was gangster granny. And I loved that because I had a background of a vault which had been burgled and I was the Swedish chef from the Muppets. I had lots of equipment surrounding me, kitchen equipment. I was Miss Hooley from Balamore and actually I didn't have to dress up too much for that because I do look quite like her. As well as that I was um was i was dressed up my pcr outfit with all my scrubs ready for action with my sanitizers and all sorts of bits and pieces of equipment pretending i was in the hospital i mean joanna i think what i was going to say is um i think we all need somebody to come onto our work zoom calls and spice it up like this, because you are right.

I think a lot of people are at the end of their tether with being on these video calls and do need a laugh and some humour. But I suppose what you're showing there is you still love to, I suppose, get through to people and to entertain. And is that why you love still teaching or what is it about teaching that you want to keep on keeping on? Well, to be honest, I do love the job. I love the children. I love the fellowship of my colleagues. And I think quite honestly, I'm an institutionalised because if I was to retire, I would be at home with my husband. And you know what that means. I would have to listen to a lot of whinging and whining. And this is another escape route for me, to be honest. Teaching.

I think you need a stand-up act as well. I mean, your husband's not here. He's not got the right of reply, I should say. I mean, you don't know what he'd say about you. But I know exactly what he said because we've been married for 50 years. God. It's a life sentence, isn't it? Well, it is for some. But you've taught the children and the grandchildren of some of the original pupils. Tell me more about this. How many generations are we at now? Oh my goodness me. Well, I started off in 1972 and the children I taught were in primary one at

that stage there were 49 of them in the classroom which at the time didn't seem to phase me at all but then I was young and inexperienced and I just didn't know anything else and well you can imagine if that was 50 years ago and they were say four, four years of age, well, they'd be 55 now. So they would have had children and some of them, their children would have had children. So, yes, I have taught grandchildren of some of the pupils I've taught. And you know what? I'm not even ashamed of that. I'm very proud. Oh, indeed. I think it's an extraordinary thing and there are some lovely in you're interviewed and there was this lovely video which is where we discovered you uh on the bbc news site

and we we just wanted to talk to you more i wanted to talk to you more and hear more and some of those pupils now grown up we're talking about they like how straightforward you are and the teachers and the pupils saying that they can understand you and that's one of the things that I suppose is key. Well, I am a very, very straightforward person. I'm very, very down to earth. I don't have any errors and graces. And I just tell you the way things are. And unfortunately for the principal, he has had to suffer that quite a lot. Are you going to keep going forever? Is there a plan? No. I have had very good health, which is a bonus. A lot of people haven't been in the same position as I am. So that's another reason why I'm able to go on because I do feel very, very

healthy. And even though I look at myself in the mirror and think, who is that old person? Deep inside, I'm just still a 20-year-old. Well, you're 71 now, is that right? I am indeed. I think you've got a long time to go. I can predict this. Joanna Harriot, thank you very much for talking to us this morning. Thank you so much for inviting me onto the show.

Thank you. Bye-bye. It's lovely to talk to you. What a picture she's painted there. Wouldn't you like to be on a Zoom call with her? It's certainly be more interesting than lots of ones I'm on. No offence to anyone I work with here, but nobody's dressed up and got a theme tune and carried on with it. Now, listen, I did say to you at the beginning of the programme,

we're going to talk about parkopresis, a word I didn't know until last night when reading about this, the inability to defecate or go for a poo without a certain level of privacy. The condition is also known as shy bowel and it can stop people from feeling comfortable about doing a bowel movement at work, while out and about or even in their own homes if people are there that they're not used to or sharing a toilet with a new partner. The knock on effects of this is often constipation. Experts say one in seven adults suffer with constipation and 60% of those are women. So what causes this anxiety? Why do more women suffer than men? And what are the long-term health implications of this? I'll tell you who I'm talking to in just

a moment, but some of your messages have been coming in about this and I want to come to them. Rebecca says, I've been with my boyfriend for four years. For the first two and a half, I was horribly constipated because I couldn't go for a poo if he was in the house. If we spent the whole weekend together, I'd have to go four days straight without having a poo. Thankfully, I've since got over it and I don't care if he hears or smells me poo. Rebecca, thank you very much for the candor there. I am probably going to giggle, not because I think it's shameworthy, but I'm just loving the details of this and the candor of this on radio on Monday morning. Well, how else should you start your week? Another one here. My dad has a very shy bow.

Again, what a picture. So on holiday in France when I was a child, he couldn't use campsite holiday campsite toilet. Excuse me. So he would stride out deep into the nearby vineyard with a spade, kept specially for the purpose, dig a hole and use that to expel his waste. On occasion, if he couldn't find a spade, he'd use my beach one. Oh, fine memories of holiday. I remember once driving home from work, 12 or so minutes to use the loo for a number two. Too embarrassed to go in the cubicle loo if someone was also in there. Maybe a throwback from being in a large family where brothers didn't mind stinking the loo out.

I'm going to remain anonymous, if that's okay. Yes, it is. But when we had workmen in the house, I went to my sister's house across the road to use her toilet. I was working at home. The house was empty. I muttered something about feeding my sister's cat and rushed off. I never told her. My husband thinks I'm bonkers and I probably am. There you go.

A bit of a flavour of some of those stories that you're being kind enough to share with us this morning. Sharing is caring and all other things involved. Eleanor Morgan is on the line, author of Hormonal, a conversation about women's bodies, mental health and why we need to be heard. Good morning to you. And Professor Shu-An Thomas-Gibson,

a consultant gastroenterologist at St Mark's National Bowel Hospital in London. If I may start with you, we know of course pooing is a normal bodily function, but what is it that can make people feel so concerned about this and what have you learned about shy bowel? Well, I think you summed it up in the comments that you had from your listeners there it's it's a range of reasons um often around embarrassment um often around feeling that public toilets are dirty but as you also heard some people don't want to go to to the loo in their own house uh if there are other people around so it is it's it's an extraordinarily uh common problem i see the sort of the end of the spectrum

where patients perhaps have got significant symptoms as a result of perhaps many years of stool avoidance or going to the loo. You know, it is usual conversation for me on a Monday morning. Yeah, yeah. I mean, this is your bread and butter. There are many jokes. You're at the end of the spectrum, the byproduct of it. I mean, I could keep going, but I will not because I must resist scatological humour. But the thing that is on a serious point, what actually happens to your body if you restrict yourself when you need to go? Well, if you think about it, we gastroenterologists like to think of the bowel as being a very sophisticated part of the body. It's not given much attention, but it is quite sophisticated.

But it's also quite simplistic in its mechanism in that if you eat something at the top end, then something's got to come out of the bottom end to make way for it. And so many people will get the sensation that they need to use the loo to open their bowels soon after eating. If it's not convenient, and clearly often it's not convenient if you're, you know, driving the kids to school or you're in a busy train and there isn't a loo, then you need to

defer. And so that's the clever bit of the mechanism. Your brain tells your bowel that it's got to empty, but it's not convenient. And so that message is switched off. But if you keep switching that message off repeatedly, then essentially those messages are downgraded and the bowel stops emptying and stops telling you it needs to empty. And of course, the stool just builds up and you become constipated. So in brief, a very complicated mechanism made quite simplistic. No, it's something, as you say, we don't give a lot of attention to, or if we do, it's in these ways, you know, these games and awful sort of things to try and avoid if we aren't in a scenario where we feel comfortable. Work-lose are also a big thing as well.

You know, I remember a friend saying to me, you know, she'd always go to like the coffee shop, you know, nearby because it wasn't particularly nice where she worked. And I always thought how awful that was that she was in that situation. Another theme that's coming out in the messages here is about school. I vividly remember when I collected my three children from junior school and they would argue in the car who was going to use which loo as soon as they got home. None of them wanted to poo at school. So it was the first thing they did when they got home. That's a real trend with children, isn't it?

It is a trend with children. And it is often these symptoms, constipation patients will tell me that they've had problems from childhood it can be because they've been encouraged to only go to the loo at a particular time of day and of course they haven't got the urge it won't happen and then they have to wait until the next day by which time the brain's a bit confused and doesn't know where it can go or not. Kids you know may not be enough cubicles in the in. And so you will have to queue up at the same break time. The cubicles are not very private either. So you hear noises and so on.

So there are all sorts of issues that often stem from childhood. Stem from childhood and keep going with you. Eleanor Morgan, good morning. Good morning. A message here from Anna who says, when booking a weekend away in a holiday cottage, I will always book one with two toilets, even if it means more bedrooms than we as a couple need.

Glad I'm not alone. The romance side of this is big, right? It is. It is a big thing, but it sort of breaks my heart because I think the idea that you sort of preserve romance or keep some sort of mystery alive by pretending that you don't do something that the other person very much knows you're going to do because they do it too it sort of doesn't really line up for me I've been there you know I know that anxiety but rationally intellectually it kind of it just doesn't sit well with me what what is more romantic than accepting or being accepted for exactly who you are and you know all of the we all are bags of meat that make noise and make smells. Oh, sell it to me, Eleanor. Yeah, I love talking about that stuff. No, I know.

I just love this vision of being a bag of meat. I'm going to sit down with my husband this evening and say, you know, we're just both bags of meat, darling. We are, though. And I think, I don't know, I kind of, my idea of romance is acknowledging and accepting that. I if we have to I don't know if we have to keep parts of ourselves concealed that doesn't that doesn't feel very romantic to me and I think it taps into these quite archaic ideas of how women should, I don't know, occupy space, how we should look, be, smell, particularly in relation to men. And I just don't, I just don't like it at all. It's one of those areas as well,

though, because it has, and I know you've looked a lot into this, because it's to do with what it's to do with, namely poo, it really isn't something that anyone's prioritised, perhaps, to get rid of the stigma around, because it's often in bedrooms, at the beginning of relationships, all these... It's not just within relationships, of course. We've been hearing about workplaces, people being in their own homes. But I think where it's linked to if a woman is attractive or not, that's where it's particularly pernicious.

Yeah, I agree. I think it's all of those old ideas about what women should and shouldn't do in order to kind of, I don't know, it's the male gaze kind of. Or the male nose, you know, whatever. Or the male nose, you know, whatever. Or the male ear. Yeah. But I don't know. I think we deserve to sort of try and wriggle away from that, to be honest.

I think who is it really serving if you think about it? If you're I mean, I just got a text from my best friend, Kate, telling me that she once when uh sleeping with a new person um ended up in Whitechapel Hospital because she had held in farts all night um and was in excruciating pain um I mean that's funny but it's also I don't know I mean farts are just funny I mean there's no two ways about it, wherever they're coming from, because they're silly sounds. But it doesn't mean you have to be ashamed of them or cause yourself any harm. No, I mean, I agree with you.

I don't think I would trust anyone that didn't find farts funny. I wouldn't know where I was with them, to be honest. There'll be some saying, break wind, don't say fart. A message is coming from Neil. I can't speak for the whole of manhood. Good to clarify, Neil. But my own experience is quite different. I used to go to extraordinary lengths to avoid having a poo when there was a chance that a girlfriend

would know, holding on, only going when out, etc, etc. In every single case it was the woman who broke the ice and the same goes for farting. One could say that it was the case of a woman, as usual, having to get a grip on the situation and I think there may be something in that. When I first met my wife, she shared a house with four other quite frank women, and their scatological discussions immediately put me at ease. So there are women out there of the same view as you, Eleanor.

Thank God. Try to make that change. Lovely to talk to you about such things today. So frankly, as we know you would. Eleanor Morgan, the author of Hormonal, a conversation about women's bodies, mental health and why we need to be heard. And thank you very much to Professor Shu Wan, Thomas Gibson, a consultant gastroenterologist, telling us what's going on inside. So many messages about this, especially that school theme coming up again and again. A retired head of year has got in touch saying, actually, so many children will not even go for a wee, never mind

go for a poo on school premises. They've been rushing to sports centres or even trying to go home during the day because they do not feel it's private. A lack of privacy in schools is part of the problem, as is a pattern of vandalism in school news, which has led to a lack of privacy. None of this is acceptable.

Keep your messages coming in. And also some very powerful ones I hope to return to with regards to the army and the armed forces culture. But new figures show children as young as four have been reported to the police for abusing their parents or carers. According to the police, 42,000 such incidents were instigated

by adolescents and children aged 19 and under between January 2018 and June 2021. This can range from physical, verbal and emotional abuse such as punching, kicking, threatening with knives, swearing or hurling demeaning insults. It can also involve playing mind games, blackmail and causing destruction to property. It's still a relatively unacknowledged and under-researched form of abuse, though, with little support offered to families. And it also affects, we know, more mothers than fathers. Of course, if you relate to any of this, please do feel you can get in touch on 84844 and you can remain anonymous. But I'm now joined by Sharon, a grandmother who looks after her nine year old grandson.

And shortly I'll be talking to the domestic abuse commissioner, Nicole Jacobs. Sharon, good morning. Welcome to the programme. Good morning. I know that you you look after your grandson. What sort of abuse have you experienced from him? Oh, everything that you kind of described uh in your opening comments really um name calling bad language physical abuse uh mental abuse yeah everything do you know why he's doing it and has it been like this for some time yeah so obviously the fact that I'm raising my grandson is unusual and I'm what they call a kinship carer so he came to us from foster care when he was 10 months old

so he'd suffered trauma within the first few weeks of his life unfortunately um and that as studies will show has made a massive impact on his um thinking ability his behaviors those kind of things uh yeah so it's mainly because of the trauma we are also in the process of going through assessments for additional needs so it's probably all of those combined really yes well it's it's a very difficult scenario that you find yourself in because unlike other forms of abuse if i can put this you're you're together you're you're caring for that person and you have that duty as well i'm not saying in any other forms of abuse it's easy to it to walk away but there isn't that extra level of connection. Absolutely. I read a quote last week about this kind of abuse, and it said that when you're dealing with domestic abuse between two adults,

you can walk away from it. As carers for these children, we close the door and actually keep ourselves in the house with these children that are abusing us. It's abuse. There's no other way around it. Are you afraid of it? Yes. Yeah. This Saturday morning, 6.30 in the morning, I was barricaded in my bedroom. My husband had gone away for a few days for a break and I was left on my own with him

and he attacked me so I had to lock myself in my bedroom whilst he was trying to hit the door down with a chair I'm so sorry it is what it is uh interestingly enough um this is my second marriage in my first marriage i suffered domestic violence and how i lived through that violence is how i feel i'm living now it's exactly the same fear um constant anxiety waiting for for the bomb to go off. It's exactly the same. Does it have that arc where there's then a reconciliation and it calms for a bit and then it flares again?

How do you, when you try and talk to him about this, how do you even go about that? It's very difficult. You learn, I've done a lot of training um through an organization that teaches something called therapeutic parenting and it's all about reconnection so you know you have to reconnect with them but the difficulty is is that the longer it goes on for you don't actually want to reconnect how do you put your arms around somebody and hug them and tell them that you love them when half an hour ago they were throwing objects and punching you it's It's such a difficult situation to be in. And you get over it because you have to. And I know for his mental health, I have to.

I have to reconnect. So by half seven, eight o'clock on Saturday morning, he was then in my bedroom and I was sat on the bed with my arms around him, hugging him. I didn't feel like that's what I wanted to do but I knew that that was what he needed. He then left the room and I got in the shower and just sobbed for about half an hour. Have you had any support? There isn't a huge amount of support out there um we're currently working alongside social services um but you know it's down to the age-old problem of funding um there are a lot of organizations out there that you can get in touch with there's somebody called pegs they're a

fantastic organization there's some there's another organization called new bold which is set up by a lady called yvonne um and yeah there are lots of organizations that you can kind of get in touch with but i was never signposted to any of those they are ones that i found myself and i was going to say we will make sure Sharon that we put a list of organizations on our website for people because a lot of people won't get in touch necessarily today but we'll be very grateful to hear you talking about something which is very taboo and not something it is how do you because you get you will get that you're the parent how are you allowing this to happen why don't you just put your foot down um and I probably would have been in that group of people

previous to having my grandson because I've raised two children and never would have even thought that this was an issue um but yeah it's a very difficult issue because, you know, social services say if he kicks off, ring 999. But then I've got a friend who's working in the police. She's a policewoman. And, you know, they are limited. So what are they going to do if they turn up and there's a nine year old kicking off? What are they going to do with him? They've got limited powers as well. So it's it's such a difficult situation. Let me bring in the Domestic Abuse

Commissioner, Nicole Jacobs, at this point. Sharon, thank you so much for that. How prevalent is this? I mean, do we even have a way of describing it? I think Sharon describes it incredibly well in terms of the dynamics. And one of the things that concerns me the most is that we don't have a shared definition. We have very little research and work going into kind of bringing these various strands of services together and thinking about what someone in Sharon's situation really needs. And so in response to that, I commissioned a report. It can be found on our website. And some of what it starts with is we need to agree on a shared definition, agree on what gaps in our data and research that is needed, and really try to draw together much more, you know, a community of practice of practitioners who are working in these areas, not really struggling to get it right and struggling to get to the resources that they need. It's vastly underdeveloped, as you said, Emma.

And we can see that increasingly this is coming up. It's taboo to talk about. But interestingly, during COVID, for example, we have research that shows us that 70% of parents in these situations or kinship carers were saying that violence increased. We had 69% of practitioners, frontline professionals saying that this was coming up in the services that they provide. I know as the domestic abuse commissioner, for example, for many, many weeks have through, have been chairing a call with all of our national helplines. And this is what really concerned me is from week one, every week thereafter, this came up time and've got to put some serious effort and resource into thinking about what are the range of services and how can they work together? Because Sharon talked so well about seeking help through children's social care, a GP, schools.

Think of police, all of these different directions that parents or kinship carers will look to, and none of them have really adequate answers. And so we have to address this so much more proactively than we currently do. And we also know that women are more likely to face this sort of abuse than men. Do we know why? Well, I think, again, we need to be able to look into this more. I would say there are some indications that there is some gendered nature to this. Although in the literature review that I commissioned, it does point out really clearly, there's a real complexity here and that you would have male victims as well as female victims. I mean, one of the things that links to this that concerns me from my own work

before becoming commissioner is looking at domestic homicide reviews and recognising that one in four domestic homicide reviews are an adult child killing a parent and that is highly gendered, most often a mother. Just while I can,

there's a message here about abuse is a very loaded word, excuse me, for describing the behaviour of young children who don't have impulse control. So hitting, outthrowing stuff is a very normal reaction for children to overwhelming emotions and anger, often masking anxiety, trauma, nervousness. It's about giving parents the tools to deal with it. It's also extra hard for grandparents who may not be as physically strong. But I suppose there is a question again about definition. What is rebellion, not being able to control versus abuse? Yeah, and I'm glad you read out that quote because it isn't about saying these children are being abusive

or using those labels, but it's about acknowledging the use and the behavior and the fear instilled. We heard from Sharon how fearful she felt. So I think we have to describe these dynamics, understand that they're complex, not label children and realize that they are growing, they are maturing. And as your caller said, you know, there's issues in relation to impulse control, all sorts of backgrounds and nuances to these discussions. But this is what is so underdeveloped.

So when you're in Sharon's situation or someone like her, she's looking around to think, where do I find some help and support? Who really can understand that really adequately? And this is where we have huge gaps. Well, we will list what we can and what we know can help, hopefully, on the Women's Hour website. Domestic Abuse Commissioner Nicole Jacobs, thank you. And a big thank you to Sharon, not just from me and, of course, the Women's Hour team,

but a message here, an anonymous message saying, as an adopter, I was reduced to tears listening to the amazing woman, Sharon, who just spoke. We've not suffered physical abuse, but raising a damaged child is very difficult and not recognised by schools or society. Thank you, and Women's Hour for raising awareness of this issue. Sharon all the best. Thank you. Thank you. Now to Hollywood where Kirsten Dunst started out in the acting business when she was just three years old. You may know her from Fargo on TV or films such as Mary Antoinette, The Virgin Suicides or Spider-Man. Her latest film, The Power of the Dog, is tipped to do well at the Oscars and is written and directed by the award winning Jane Campion.

Set in the 20s, it focuses on two brothers who own the biggest ranch in the Montana Valley. secretly marries Rose, a.k.a. Kirsten Dunst, the sadistic and cruel Phil, played by Benedict Cumberbatch, wages a relentless war to destroy his new sister-in-law, Rose, by using her son as a pawn. Kirsten Dunst explained how the character Rose, her character, first got involved with those brothers. She runs an inn by herself with her son. She's a widow, and they all come in for dinner, and he is really awful to her son. She's a widow and they all come in for dinner and he is really awful to my

son. And so Jesse's character bonds with her almost immediately. I think they both share a loneliness that they recognize in each other. So when she goes to this ranch and she moves in, all the things that gave her a function in life are gone. And now she's in a house with somebody who doesn't want her there and will do the best job of making her feel awful. It's not like Benedict Eakin and I have many scenes together, but what he does do to her is gaslight her. And so she's just psychologically tortured in this household. I mean, it is a tale of gaslighting a woman

and what some would say toxic masculinity. I think that when someone can't express themselves and be who they really are in life, that creates other personality traits that are very dangerous. And so I think that Phil is masterful at being someone who can really get inside of someone's brain. I mean, for me as an actress, I had to kind of create that because we don't have many scenes together. So I had to kind of go to pretty painful places of feeling really bad about yourself and what that kind of does to somebody.

You're talking, I should say, to remind our listeners about Benedict Cumberbatch playing that role. But why were you drawn to this role? Because it doesn't sound like a walk in the park. No, you're right. But you know, when Jane Campion wants you in a movie, you'll play it. That's just like for me as an actor. She wrote me a letter in my early 20s about working on this other film together and it never happened. But growing up, watching her films and the way that the performances of the actresses in her movies have always inspired me as an actress and the places she takes you with these women in her films are some of the most exciting. So I just I would have played any anything for

Jane really. And that speaks to your commitment to working with with female creators a lot of the time. I do. I did Little Women pretty early on in my career. So it wasn't really ever a thing for me, like a female director or a male director. I always have worked with female directors. You know, when I was 16, working with Sophia. You're talking about Sophia Coppola there. Yeah, sorry to say. She's my friend. So, you know, Sophia Coppola, she really gave me an opportunity to feel really beautiful at an age where you could be objectified by a man in a way that would make you look at yourself in a certain way or feel like you have to be a certain way. And because I had the opportunity to grow up on screen and she was kind of my introduction to more

of Kirsten Dunst as a woman, she gave me a confidence where I didn't feel like I had to dress a certain way or be a certain way for a man, I guess is what I'm saying. And that's an age when you can really feel bad about yourself. And so she kind of gave me a confidence that was really valuable as an actress, you know, to have her female gaze, let's say, at that age. Yes. I was wondering how important that was because you've grown up on screen and in preparation for talking to you. I mean, I've watched so many of your films,

but I also looked back at that interview, which people have commented on since, with David Letterman when you were very young, with some of those jokes, those sexual innuendos and how some of those things just don't age well. Do you ever think back to some of the interviews when you were a kid and how you were? I don't even know which interview you're referencing. It was one of them when you

were very young and you gave him a flower and he put it on his lapel and he talks about being floppy and everybody laughs. And you know, you are great, I have to say, innit? But it was more about, I suppose, that male gaze that you're talking about through the media, through the years. Right. Yes. Yeah. I don't know, like some weird late night talk show stuff. No, I don't know. I don't remember exactly. I always had my mom on set. I always felt protected. Once I had a weird meeting with a director because he asked me a question that was inappropriate. And that's kind of been the extent for me. I also remember first AD calling me girly girl on set and I really didn't like that. And I honestly didn't really speak up about it until I worked with him again

on another film. And I was, I remember telling him, I really didn't like when you did that, you know? So yeah, we as females often swallow a lot of things. And I think now the older you get, the more you understand your value and don't take on as much or you say what you need done, you know, and how you feel about something and assert yourself differently is the older you get. And that's a big part of playing Rose too, is that old part of like feeling less than, you know? Yes. It's a big part of how she is able to express her emotion in what is at that time very much a man's world. I should say, you're married to the person you marry on set in this film. And I know you met originally through your work. And what was it like all these years later doing that again together? I mean, he's my favorite actor to

work with, Jesse Plemons. He's the best. But it was funny to be so formal with each other. That was kind of the funniest part of it. And the friendship, has that resumed with Benedict Cumberbatch? I read to Keep It Real, you guys avoided each other on set as much as possible. We just didn't talk to each other. But to be honest, I had to create my own kind of monsters for myself. Benedict, he's a kind human being. So it really works against, he's so lovely to everyone. So it really helped him to try and not communicate with all of us, or me specifically. It created a good dynamic for us both. And I was going to say, having been on screen your whole life, do you have to take a moment

where you, as you get older and your life off screen changes a lot more, whether that's because of family or different duties? Do you have to reinvent yourself again? Have you thought about how you want to be as a as an actor now moving forward in a different way? I don't think about my career myself outside of myself. So I'm very director driven. So it wasn't like I needed to play Rose. It was I needed to work with Jane Campion. You know what I mean? Well, no, I don't. So it's good to it's to play Rose. It was I needed to work with Jane Campion. You know what I mean?

Well, no, I don't. So it's good to it's good to hear. Oh, OK, sorry. I not really role driven. I mean, it's great when the combo happens, but it doesn't always happen. So Rose wasn't like a fun role for me to play. Like even working with Lars von Trier and playing someone really depressed. I had the best time.

But Rose, I didn't have a good time playing her. It was very old parts of who I am as a person. And then I had to highlight those parts. And it just was a really painful place to work. Yeah, I mean, that's why when I was asking what drew you to it, of course, you've explained about the director side of it. But I suppose I also noticed the New York Times in a profile of you called you one of our greatest chroniclers of despair. And I was thinking, is that something you enjoy or endure? Oh, gosh, I mean, I'm a really happy, relaxed person. I'm a very like sensitive person, but I'm also I know how to protect myself too. So listen, part of my job is to share our human experience and do that

in the most real way that I can. So if I can affect someone, that's my job. I'll try and go to the most, you know, the most real places that I can find to express whoever I'm playing's pain or joy or whatever. I just want to make that moment feel as authentic to the person I'm playing. And then hopefully the audience feels that as well. Kirsten Dunst talking about her new film, The Power of the Dog, which is in selected cinemas on November 19th and on Netflix from December the 1st. Going back to our very first discussion about laddish culture in the military, of course, just hours after people have been thinking about those we've lost for Remembrance Sunday. Army laddish culture must put many men off too.

This is after the head of the armed forces, the defence services, General Sir Nick Carter, has stood by those comments about a laddish culture being necessary. Laddishness in the army. Army recruits are modelled by society and it reflects the cultures

within which they've been raised. The army then adds its own values on top but in downtime people will revert to their underlying values. Another message coming in here, please can we mention the Navy as well as the army? There are many sexual assaults on ships that are covered up. I think they do not believe

the female soldier. It's still such a male culture. I have family members in the Navy and they do not think this problem is only in the army. Sexism runs from the top and the message there throughout. And we're seeing an issue needs an anthropologist, not a pro-military man, even well-intentioned. Male domination is shrinking and men are resenting it,

says Cathy, who's got experience. Thank you so much for those messages and your company. I'll be back tomorrow at 10. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Thank you so much for your time. Join us again for the next one. Harland, a new five-part supernatural thriller for BBC Radio 4. Welcome to Harland, town of the future.

Things happen here sometimes, especially at night. The past does not exist here. Police in Harland have appealed for the public's help with the investigation into the disappearance of local teenager Evie Bennett. It's been concreted over and forgotten. The worst of it is still to come. This is only the beginning. She's right. It wants to suck me down into the void and destroy me. And not just me, everything.

I'm the only one here at night. What if it comes for me next? If you really want to understand something, you have to go right to the edge. What is it? Is it something real? It's coming towards you. Sarah, it's right there in front of you. Sarah!

Ah! Harland. Available on BBC Sounds. I'm Sarah Trelevan, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake.

No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.